Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: DarkEnigma on July 14, 2010, 07:28:14 PM
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I recently finished Warbreaker and though I didn't think it was as strong as Mistborn (after reading about Allomancy, Awakening is rather ho-hum by comparison) I was struck by a philosophical notion:
Vivenna might have been prissy and naive towards the beginning of the story, but she was right about one thing: collecting the Breath of others, and by extension Awakening, is a morally bankrupt practice.
It is difficult to objectively analyze this issue because Sanderson doesn't tell us very much about the long-term effects of becoming a Drab but here are a few conclusions I was able to draw:
The consequences of losing one's Breath include, reduced life-expectancy, reduced resistance to sickness and disease, increased vulnerability to being snuck up on, increased predisposition to depression or melancholy, and general lack of joie de vive.
I belive that selling one's Breath is sort of like selling a kidney, or perhaps prostituting oneself: no, it isn't fatal but the physiological and psycological impact is life-long, far-reaching, and hard to quantify. Even if a person isn't coerced into doing so, taking advantage of anothers destitution in this way seems at best callous and at worst downright vampiric. These issues are, of course, greatly exacerbated when children are the victim.
Given all this, I see Awakeners and Gods as similar to people who buy products made from sweat shops: they might not be directly responsible in taking advantage of others but their patronage enables the practice to flourish. This makes Vivenna's descision at the end to embrace Awakening somewhat baffling.
Thoughts? Rebuttals?
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I think your analogy is a very good one. Especially when you consider that we seldom know the effects of what we do. You ever bought a t-shirt? Then odds are you've purchased something made in a sweat shop.
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There are definitely moral issues, and other nations aside from Hallandren see things much the way you do. The sequel will deal with some of them.
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Glad to hear it. I totally agree.
It's definently murky territory.
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I think selling a kidney is probably the best analogy. There's nothing inherently bad about organ transplants, managed ethically they are probably a great force for good. What's wrong with the way breaths are handled in Hallandren is that they encourage people to give them up when they're expecting to live a long time afterwards. Passing on your Breath before you die, however, seems like it could be a more moral way of handling things. :)
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In some cases I could see it as being immoral. However, there are great benefits for people that could come out of it as well. I am just trying to pull this out of my head right now but wasn't it stated at some point that if you have multiple breaths then you could pass on some but not all of those breaths. Susebron was apparently going to do this with the child that was to replace him.
If that was possible, the benefits could be seen more if it was more of a practice to give up your breath on your deathbed then to sell it early in life. The breath does not die with the person so they are technically unlimited as long as they are passed on. Or upon retiring the life of an awakener, pass on all your breath except the one you need to survive.
Vivian is taking on the life of an awakener, but I thought the were using already harvested breaths and don't follow the practice of taking more? That may be my wishful thinking though.
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Unlike a kidney, Breath is safely re-transferable. So, if you give your own personal Breath to a Drab and they give it back to you, you've lost nothing. On the other end of the scale, it's not like people selling their hair. So, somewhere in between. I don't think we have enough information yet so place it along that scale with much precision... yet.
That I remember, I'm not quite sure just how much of a difference being a Drab makes to one's daily life. Or lifespan. Certainly with a large amount of Breath you effectively become immortal, but I don't remember any indications that becoming Drab halves your lifespan or the like. We see Vivi go cold turkey as it were, but she was going from hundreds to zero, not 1 to zero, so I'm not sure just how big a difference it is. Certainly lots of people seem to find worthwhile to sell their Breath, so how bad is it?
On a side note, you talk about Awakening being immoral, but what you're mostly talking about is collecting / selling / transferring Breath - I find this the most interesting aspect of the magic system - basically allows a bunch of nobodies to pool together their Breath and do some damage, providing their 'avatar' can be trusted and has any skill of course. At an economic level, you could 'pawn' your Breath, use the money to start up a business, make a profit and then buy your Breath back (or rather someone's Breath). I also wonder, do grandparents 'will' their Breath to the younger generation just before they die? You could stack up Breath down through the generations. I imagine that when you're nearly dead, your Breath would be quite weak, but it could still be worth it, particularly in the long term.
On another side note: one thing brought up several times is that it's not possible to have Breath ripped from you in practice. You have to willingly give it away, either by speaking the words or using strong enough mental thoughts. But, is this really true? After all, Nightblood seems to 'eat' Breath which doesn't seem that dissimilar from ripping Breath from someone involuntarily. Maybe there's an implied 'contract' when Nightblood is held / wielded...?
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I think that Vivenna's people, the Idrians, agree with you - Their society is based on it, in fact.
I'd like to play devil's advocate here: I'm not 100% sure I was comfortable with Awakening and breath-transfer, but the jury's still out.
In the meantime, consider the analogies given: Organ donation may be seen as immoral as it leaves the donor less whole. However, it allows someone else to live. Presumably, and in a lot of cases, it allows someone the donor cares about deeply to live - which is much the way that many people who sell their breath to the Returned feel. Jewels was an example of this: A drab, yes, but she took pride in it.
To use the other example, I've seen prostitution used as an example as well, but isn't that circumstantial as well? consider the following example:
a wife and her ten children transfer their breath to her husband so that he might become an Awakener, and do great things. In fact, she gathers her extended family and convinces them all to invest in him, to help him represent their family in honor and yadda yadda yadda. He goes on to use that breath to do great things, and bring happiness to his family. Is his whole family whoring themselves out to him, or is it a sign of trust and love?
Furthermore, if the breath is transferred to an Awakener on a deathbed, in the manner Vivenna received hers? When she couldn't have refused it? Is that immoral?
Muddy is the issue indeed.
Yoda must move on to another topic now...one more lighthearted perhaps.
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Kari: You're absolutely right that breath is re-transferable, to a certain degree, but I wasn't so much concerned with that as the point at which a society would regard it acceptable to transfer away all of your Breath. That is much more like donating a kidney, I think, rather than say, engaging in some behaviour that might be a temporary risk to your health, like eating badly.
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First, a couple of points of order:
Vivenna caught some kind of disease within days of becoming a Drab even though she had been in Hallandren for months. This suggests to me that the toll on the body's immune system is fairly significant once your Breath is lost. Exactly how significant the loss to life-expectancy is, however, is unclear.
Also, Sanderson did make it clear that giving up Breath was an all-or-nothing affair. You can't dole out individual Breaths from your stockpile to others.
Given that, it does make Vivenna's unique situation a bit more sympathetic: the Breath was thrust on her without her consent and the only way she could rid herself of it is to become a Drab herself. However, using Awakening in the heat of battle to save one's life (or her sister's life) is one thing; embracing the Awakener lifestyle once the danger is past is something else altogether. I thought she might perhaps dedicate her significantly longer life-span to helping the needy or perhaps sell the wealth of Breath and use the funds to set up a trust that people could turn to as an alternative to selling their Breath.
As far as giving up your Breath on your deathbed to help the next generation, I don't see anything morally wrong with that. Creating a kind of family heirloom of the Breath passed from grandparent to grandchild for generations so that each new generation leads a healthier life than the last sounds like a good idea.
The real issue is when perfectly healthy people or children are coerced, brainwashed (through religion?), or bribed into giving up their Breath. Breath has to come from somewhere, and people who are financially stable are unlikely to give up an unknown number of years off of their lifespan (not to mention put up with more sick days and melancholy to boot) for a quick score. That means the most likely candidates are those who are destitute. Ergo, anyone who willingly buys Breath is profiting from the misery of others, which covers the majority of Awakeners.
Finally, as far as a family or community pooling their collective Breath into one person; that might make sense if the community were threatened by a discrete, immediate, existential threat that an Awakener might be able to deal with. Otherwise, what's the point? What could an Awakener accomplish for the community that would be worth dozens of people dying sooner, being weaker of constitution, and taking less joy from life?
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You have to consider though that she was used to eating and living well and suddenly became a beggar. The lack of food and hygienic conditions has a HUGE effect on the matter of her getting sick.
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Excellent point, although I wonder if it would be a "huge" effect. As you say, she was well fed and cared for prior to her stint as a beggar. I think it might take more than a week or so of malnutrition to have a huge impact on her immune system. Still, it is a mitigating factor.
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Also, Sanderson did make it clear that giving up Breath was an all-or-nothing affair. You can't dole out individual Breaths from your stockpile to others.
Actually, Brandon made it clear that this was a myth that lots of people believed and that Denth wanted to perpetuate. Even if you don't have fine control, there's an easy way around it, which Vasher used to give a breath to that little girl: put almost all of your breath into an object, give the remaining breath away, then take back all the breath from the object.
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Hmm... Having reread the pertinent scene I see what you mean, although what actually happens is quite vague. Vivenna notices the girl's aura "flicker" then wonders if Denth was lying to her about the all-or-nothing rule. Is there an annotation elucidating this issue?
At any rate, assuming you are correct, that darkens my view of Awakeners in general and Vivenna in particular a great deal. There is, then, no excuse not to return her ill-gotten gains to those in need.
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I'm not going to lie, I'd be one of those people striving to find more breathes anyway I could. The ability to make yourself essentially into a god (No sickness, extended life) would be too tempting for me.
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Hmm... Having reread the pertinent scene I see what you mean, although what actually happens is quite vague. Vivenna notices the girl's aura "flicker" then wonders if Denth was lying to her about the all-or-nothing rule. Is there an annotation elucidating this issue?
At any rate, assuming you are correct, that darkens my view of Awakeners in general and Vivenna in particular a great deal. There is, then, no excuse not to return her ill-gotten gains to those in need.
Annotations for Warbreaker have just started to be posted but there was a Warbreaker Q&A on goodreads.com where this issue was discussed.
From the Good Reads Warbreaker Q&A
http://www.goodreads.com/group/comments/10915.Fantasy_Book_Club?user_id=3145554-brandon-sanderson
The "You must give up all of your Breath, not some" line was mostly perpetuated by Denth, who is saying it to Vivenna to stop her from giving away her Breath to all the people she passes. It is a lie. Now, it's a lie that's commonly accepted by a lot of people. But it's still a lie—as we find out midway through the book, you can stick some of your Breath in an object and bring it to life, and then recover that Breath. So it's very easy to give some of your Breath to someone if you know the logical steps to take. Invest most of it into an object, give what you have to someone else, then pull back what you Invested. So it's flat-out proven in the novel that what Denth is telling her is wrong. Now, he could dance around that lie by pretending to be the ignorant mercenary—he's just perpetuating a falsehood that many people believe. But it is a lie. In fact, a lot of the things people believe about BioChromatic Breath isn't true.
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Vasher has learned to suppress his Returned Breath. When it's suppressed, it's as if it doesn't exist to him. He's Invested it into a place within himself, much like you can Invest your Breaths into a shirt, and when he gives away the rest of his Breaths, he doesn't give that one away. He could split off others of his Breaths if he wanted to—he's learned to do that, so that he could give a few Breaths and not all. It's just a matter of practicing as long as he has. But even people who aren't as practiced as him do it all the time when they Invest an object with not all of their Breath but just enough to bring it to life.
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I think this debate comes down to a couple of things.
1. From whose view do you look at this from as there are many.
The religion of Idris sees awakening, as well as the giving/selling/buying/acquiring of breath as immoral. This comes somewhat from their history, that they were exiled from their ancestral home by awakeners. They have blocked out of their religious memories where they came from and who they are descended from. Their religion holds that any way other than theirs is wrong, and that nothing can be gained from the giving/selling/buying/acquiring of breath.
Viveanna seems devout in the religion of Idris; however she has been groomed much like a child in any faith that their way is the only right way. She is forced into a situation that is not of her choosing in being given the breath, and as she progresses, she learns about other religions and who she is as a person. Who is to say her decision to use breath as an awakener is right or wrong other than her. She weighs both sides of the coin so to say, and when it comes down to life or death, she finds out what truly she believes. Yes, she could have learned how to give breath to drabs or those perceived in need, but who is to say that the drab/beggar/perceived begger won't turn right around and sell it. Much like the beggar on the corner. If you give him money, he mayuse it to feed himself and/or his family. He may go buy beer or cigarettes or drugs. You never really know. If you in turn offer him food, you have a better indication of what his intentions are.
Siri who has felt like an outcast in her society when confronted with a similar situation to her sister, chooses to embrace her new life. Again she knows the teachings of her religion, and finds that perhaps there is truth in more than just one religion. She finds that she really never knew the other side of the story. She may judge quickly and in some cases incorrectly, but when she takes the time, she makes her own decisions, and if she chooses the wrong decision, she learns from it. She is compassionate, sometimes to a fault in being blind to the truth, but again she will admit she was wrong as well.
With those like Jewel who gave their breath for their gods, in her mind she sacrificed something that she didn't consider important to help her family. Her family was blessed, she feels as a result of her decision. It's similar to one of my mom's friends, who as a child was beaten regularity by her father. She went to a christian church, gave offerings, and prayed that God would stop the beatings. When she was a teenager, she said that she felt a man put his hands on her shoulder one night and tell her that the beatings would stop as she prayed. As she looked down she saw feet with nail holes through them. The next day her father left and never came back. No matter what might happen later in life, she will always believe her religion caused the miracle. Nothing anyone can say can change her mind, and if I had that experience I would be able to say nothing and no one could change mine.
2. The situation in which the breath is acquired.
Those who actively seek people willing to sell breath, create an underground market to sell breath illegally. Brandon wasn't specific in what regulations and safety nets were in place for those who sold their breath, but he mentioned that those who gave their breath to the gods were reimbursed fairly for their breath. The experience Jewel tells Viveanna supports this. Now, if a thug lord is prostituting the breaths of the people who look to him for protection, and they are not benefiting from the selling of their breath, then yes, I feel the issue is immoral, as one gains from something that he perceives is his but actually belongs to another, and the person it is taken from does not benefit from the loss.
Pretty much what I take from this, is that it depends on the perspective you are looking at the situation from, and the complete situation as to how the breath was acquired. There is always more than what you see at first, and the more you know, the better you are able to decide for yourself weather or not you think the choice is right or wrong, and even then, you need to be aware that the choice is not always yours to make. Choice is what makes us human. We may or may not agree with the choices of others, but it is their right to make their own choices, and we can't judge a person because we don't agree with their choice.
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We can't judge a person because we don't agree with their choice? In what circumstance can we judge someone, then?
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I have to strongly agree with Peter here. I'm all about not judging people, but the one thing you can, and should in my opinion, judge them on are the choices they make.
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It's important not to judge prematurely—before you have all the facts—and to be willing to change your opinion when presented with new evidence.
I think Vivenna doesn't really get the give-one-breath trick yet. And there's a lot about awakening that she doesn't know—and that we don't know as well.
Actually, I think not judging prematurely is one of the major themes of this book.
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I think also there's a difference between judging and condemning. You can disapprove of someone's behaviour without making a huge issue of it by condemning, lecturing or mocking them. Really, if you think someone should consider a different choice, you're much more likely to convince them by connecting with them socially and living by example, so condemnation is generally a self-defeating strategy anyway.
Besides, judgement is inherent in choice: how do we come to a choice if not by judging the options? It's natural and beneficial that we should extend our own process of judgement to other people to compare how our decisions differ. It's how we use that information that might be good or bad.
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sorry, my statement wasn't too clear.
I meant don't judge the person because you don't agree with their choices, judge weather or not you think the choice was correct, but not the person. Everyone makes bad decisions, and if we judge the person based on their choices, we do them a disservice by not knowing them as an entire person.
some examples:
Some people find Homosexuality and prostitution to be immoral (I am one of these people). I don't judge people who choose this lifestyle and have many friends who have. I feel that the people are good people; however I don't agree with their choice of lifestyle. I understand that it is their god given choice to live the way they wish, and mine to live the way I chose. Their choices don't necessarily make them a bad person, even if I don't agree with them.
On the other hand, I find murder and child abuse to be immoral as well. Someone who can take away the life of a person, either completely or who this person may have become had they not been abused is evil. Their actions in these cases tell us what kind of person they are. Even still, in these cases, I have seen interviews with brothers, sisters, children and spouses of some of the worst serial killers, and they can say they didn't know the bad side of these people, and that the choices they made were wrong, but that they loved these people, and that they thought they were very charming, and good people.
Pretty much what I was trying to say was don't judge the person because you don't agree with their choices, judge the person based on who they are as a person. We all make bad choices, but we are not all bad people.
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Yep, that was pretty much what I was saying. I didn't really want to give examples though so that it didn't flare into a political debate, especially given that I suspect I might be on the smaller side here. ;)
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I tend to write what I think, as well as speak what I think. It gets me into trouble at times, but I figure that if people don't like me for who I really am because I hide my opinions, then they really don't like me... they like who they think I am. :D
... and sorry to all if I'm a bit long winded. I try to give the short version of my thoughts...
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I really like the family heirloom idea, but there's a problem with it.
To have any real power as an awakener, you need at least the first heightening, if not higher. That means at least 50 generations will need to have passed for someone in the family to gain awakening. True, during this time your entire family may be more healthy and live longer, but it's still not going to amount to much (this could be sped by everyone in the family giving their breath to one person on they die, as per the investment suggestion).
In short, I don't think awakeners could exist if people did not sell their breaths. As the system is, I was wondering throughout the book where all the breaths came from, and why EVERYONE wasn't a drab already. First, each God needs a breath a week. Let's say there are ten gods for easniness' sake (I don't know the actual number, but I think it's around there). Each takes a breath a week, assuming years are the same length as ours, that's 520 new drabs per year. Plus 104 more for the God King, since he usually takes two per week. Every two years, there are about one thousand new drabs. True, more people die and are born than that in two years, but I still think it's significant portion of the population. Especially when you take into consideration how many awakeners there are. There are many who have reached the first heightening (I believe most of the higher nobility and priesthood has). For each one of them, there are fifty new drabs. Vivenna and Vasher are significantly more powerful, and though they are rare, they are not alone, thus that's more breaths out of the system. Also, every lifeless costs a single breath to make, and breaths are also sometimes lost (as Vasher demonstrated).
Sorry for being long winded. Basically my point is, Awakening could not exist without the current system UNLESS the collection of breaths on the deathbed was highly standardized, concentrating these breaths into certain people, not just passed down through families.
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I think that the kidney metaphor is close- except that instead of a healthy kidney going into a sick person who needs it, it goes into a person who's healthy, giving them an extra kidney. Or, in the case of the God King a lot of extra kidneys.
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Assuming society's getting wealthier, you would actually be more likely to be concentrating a large amount of Breaths into fewer people in the family heirloom scenario, as family sizes tend to drop dramatically as quality of life increases.