Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Technomancer on April 17, 2010, 04:32:23 AM
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I've been thinking lately and Nightblood shares a lot of similarities to a Feruchemal Metalmind but it also seems more advanced in some ways. I thought perhaps discussing this might shed some light on Feruchemy and Awakening. I also found it interesting that the only Awakened object that we saw truly gain sentience was made of metal, I could just be grasping at straws for connections but who knows?
On a side note: I was at Brandon's signing in Lincoln last night, and according to him due to its sentience Nightblood would be immune to the affect of an Allomancer trying to push/pull on it was iron and steel.
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On a side note: I was at Brandon's signing in Lincoln last night, and according to him due to its sentience Nightblood whould be immune to the affect of an Allomancer trying to push/pull on it was iron and steel.
This interests me. . . .
Why would sentience change the affects of Allomancy?
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Perhaps it's for the same reason that Allomantic pulling and pushing doesn't work on people, because it isn't strong enough. TLR was able to push people because his Allomancy was strong enough to push on the metals in their blood, but there might be another reason. The Cognitive and Spiritual aspects of a sentient being might be enough to counteract specific sorts of magical attack on a physical level. Perhaps, since Nightblood being sentient gives it stronger Cognitive and Spiritual existence, it puts it on the same level as a person when it comes to Allomantic resistance. The question that should be asked is whether or not TLR would be able to push on it.
Sorry, I'm kind of scrambling at fragmented ideas here, so feel free to rip it to pieces, I can take it.
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On a side note: I was at Brandon's signing in Lincoln last night, and according to him due to its sentience Nightblood would be immune to the affect of an Allomancer trying to push/pull on it was iron and steel.
This interests me. . . .
Why would sentience change the affects of Allomancy?
The way I understood it was that was something like metal piercing the body not being affected. A sword is metal and Nightblood has a, I guess you could call it a soul so the metal is its body and this makes it immune. Of course this all came from the question of who would win in a fight between Vin, Vasher, and Raoden on an even playing field. (the answer was Vin btw, her faster magic and somewhat ruthless additude being sighted as the reasons.) Of course he mentioned that Nightblood would be trouble for the Elantrian and Mistborn, to which I noted it being made of metal and fair game for Vin; the statement about sentience was his reply. He also stated that in future books we'd being seeing other such metals that would be immune to Allomancy due to all of these worlds being in the Shardverse.
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Perhaps it's for the same reason that Allomantic pulling and pushing doesn't work on people, because it isn't strong enough. TLR was able to push people because his Allomancy was strong enough to push on the metals in their blood, but there might be another reason. The Cognitive and Spiritual aspects of a sentient being might be enough to counteract specific sorts of magical attack on a physical level. Perhaps, since Nightblood being sentient gives it stronger Cognitive and Spiritual existence, it puts it on the same level as a person when it comes to Allomantic resistance. The question that should be asked is whether or not TLR would be able to push on it.
Sorry, I'm kind of scrambling at fragmented ideas here, so feel free to rip it to pieces, I can take it.
To be honest I'd also pondered if an exceedingly powerful Allomancer like TLR or Mist-powered Vin could Push/Pull on it, if my theory is correct then logic would say yes due to evidence in Mistborn but Nightblood already seems to break one rule...
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In allomancy, the metal is just a catalyst. It helps an allomancer open a channel through the part of preservation that resides in them and draw on Preservation's power. I think I read that in an annotation.
I recall from the chapter headings that allomancy comes from Preservation, hemalurgy comes from Ruin, and Feruchemy is of the balance. That's not explained any more than that, but I can speculate. Allomancy uses metal as a catalyst to draw on Preservation. Hemalurgy stores an aspect of a victim's body in a piece of metal and transfers it to another. Feruchemy allows one to store aspects of one's own body in metal, to be drawn out later.
Nightblood is similar in this respect to both hemalurgy and feruchemy. A bit of one person's soul (the Breath) was transfered willingly from one person to another; that person amassed quite a lot of Breath and stored 1000 of them in Nightblood. This mass of life force has managed to imbue the inanimate metal with the characteristics of human sentience, which itself probably (my guess) has something to do with the shards of Adonalsium, which, again, has something to do with the fact that metal inside a person can't be pushed or pulled.
(Honestly, I think metal inside a person can't be pushed or pulled because, were that not the case, Allomancers and Hemalurgists would have an excessively debilitating weakness. Clearly that requirement led to lots of in-world rationalizations.)
But I'm just rambling to take a break from studying. Sorry you had to read that bag of wind.
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Do you think that Brandon's magic systems are so closely interlaced, that perhaps it's on purpose? Like Hoid and the Shards of Andolasium? That perhaps the systems are some kind of 'sister magics'?
Or perhaps I'm reading too far into this.
But that leads into how far the magic systems are entrenched within the shards...
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Do you think that Brandon's magic systems are so closely interlaced, that perhaps it's on purpose? Like Hoid and the Shards of Andolasium? That perhaps the systems are some kind of 'sister magics'?
Or perhaps I'm reading too far into this.
But that leads into how far the magic systems are entrenched within the shards...
No I think you're on to something. When he told me about Nightblood's immunity to Allomancy and mentioned that there would be other metals that would also be immune to Allomantic effects he refered to an "overarching magic system". This does make sense as it the Shards that provide the power for the magic and they were all once part of Andolasium.
However a new question comes to mind about Nightblood's immunity, since it's a living sword it's immune to iron and steel but what about zinc and brass? Could Nightblood be Soothed or Rioted or perhaps with the addition of duralumin, controlled like a kandra or koloss?
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What I would like to know is if someone who is both an allomancer and an awakener would have their allomantic strength boosted by having a large amount of breaths. This comes from the idea that having more of preservation's power is what determines how strong an allomancer you are, would this work with the power of endowment (if that is exactly what breaths are)? Another thing that I think supports this is the existence of Atium mistings, who are gifted via preservation with the ability to only use ruin's power could mean that shard power is shard power and can be interpreted through all magic systems. Maybe.
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What I would like to know is if someone who is both an allomancer and an awakener would have their allomantic strength boosted by having a large amount of breaths. This comes from the idea that having more of preservation's power is what determines how strong an allomancer you are, would this work with the power of endowment (if that is exactly what breaths are)? Another thing that I think supports this is the existence of Atium mistings, who are gifted via preservation with the ability to only use ruin's power could mean that shard power is shard power and can be interpreted through all magic systems. Maybe.
I suppose it's possible but some of the systems work very differently. For instance AonDor but of course that could be something like Allomancy with the Aons being the tap in place of metals; also Elantrians seem dramically similar to Returned, coincidence? Now about your question: I don't think a Mistborn storing Breath would become any stronger Allomanically, they'd just become able to able to Awaken, but Breath seems similar to the mists in some ways, if they could find some way to burn Breath I'd wager it would have an effect like Vin burning the mists.
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Nightblood is steel right? What if a feruchemist stored speed in it? Maybe nightblood could steal it, maybe the feruchemist would get a surprise when he/she tried to withdraw his or her speed. What it was used as a hemalurgic spike? Scary stuff, the possibilites are endless.
Oh, I got it. Nightblood has speed stored in it, then is stabbed through the body of an elantrian, into it's waiting hemalurgic host.
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Nightblood is steel right? What if a feruchemist stored speed in it? Maybe nightblood could steal it, maybe the feruchemist would get a surprise when he/she tried to withdraw his or her speed. What it was used as a hemalurgic spike? Scary stuff, the possibilites are endless.
Oh, I got it. Nightblood has speed stored in it, then is stabbed through the body of an elantrian, into it's waiting hemalurgic host.
but Hemalurgi spikes steal allomantic powers, would it steal the powers of an Elantrian? Plus Nightblood would just suck it's new host dry if it were used as a spike.
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So could we say that the Dor and Breath are somehow related as well?
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So could we say that the Dor and Breath are somehow related as well?
Yes.
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Nightblood is steel right? What if a feruchemist stored speed in it? Maybe nightblood could steal it, maybe the feruchemist would get a surprise when he/she tried to withdraw his or her speed. What it was used as a hemalurgic spike? Scary stuff, the possibilites are endless.
Oh, I got it. Nightblood has speed stored in it, then is stabbed through the body of an elantrian, into it's waiting hemalurgic host.
but Hemalurgi spikes steal allomantic powers, would it steal the powers of an Elantrian? Plus Nightblood would just suck it's new host dry if it were used as a spike.
Actually a hemalurgic spike can steel allomantic powers, feruchemical powers or just plain human qualities depending who kill with it and where it's placed int he recipient.
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Nightblood is steel right? What if a feruchemist stored speed in it? Maybe nightblood could steal it, maybe the feruchemist would get a surprise when he/she tried to withdraw his or her speed. What it was used as a hemalurgic spike? Scary stuff, the possibilites are endless.
Oh, I got it. Nightblood has speed stored in it, then is stabbed through the body of an elantrian, into it's waiting hemalurgic host.
but Hemalurgi spikes steal allomantic powers, would it steal the powers of an Elantrian? Plus Nightblood would just suck it's new host dry if it were used as a spike.
Actually a hemalurgic spike can steel allomantic powers, feruchemical powers or just plain human qualities depending who kill with it and where it's placed int he recipient.
I knew that I just wasn't thinking, still Elantrian powers are a bit different.
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So could we say that the Dor and Breath are somehow related as well?
Well, that's not specific at all, really. Of course they are somehow related, they are both derived from Shards of Adonalsium. :P
Nightblood is steel right? What if a feruchemist stored speed in it? Maybe nightblood could steal it, maybe the feruchemist would get a surprise when he/she tried to withdraw his or her speed. What it was used as a hemalurgic spike? Scary stuff, the possibilites are endless.
Oh, I got it. Nightblood has speed stored in it, then is stabbed through the body of an elantrian, into it's waiting hemalurgic host.
but Hemalurgi spikes steal allomantic powers, would it steal the powers of an Elantrian? Plus Nightblood would just suck it's new host dry if it were used as a spike.
Actually a hemalurgic spike can steel allomantic powers, feruchemical powers or just plain human qualities depending who kill with it and where it's placed int he recipient.
I knew that I just wasn't thinking, still Elantrian powers are a bit different.
It's important to know that, perhaps, while from our armchair view of the Cosmere, that Hemalurgy could theoretically steal these spiritual and genetic codes and give them to another, that it there might not exist certain places to stab the spike for certain magic systems. We don't know enough to know, either way.
Practically speaking, though, even if there exists a place where a Hemalurgically imbued spike can be placed into one of Endowment's creations, it may be impossible to find, given the viewpoint of humans. I'd argue it would even take a Shard a very long time to figure such things out.
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I don't know, Rashek figured out Kandra, Koloss, and Inquistors while he was in the Well of Ascensio or shortly afterward, now that said there should be a hemalurgic spike for every Allomantic metal and we don't know what a lot of them do, hemalugically speaking so it is open to speculation on whether they could steal powers from different magic systems.
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But, of the possibilities of places where Hemalurgic spikes can go, Sazed stated that the Lord Ruler only knew of three. Three! He spent the next thousand years trying to discover more, only to fail.
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Yes I know, I'm saying it'd be easy, just possible.
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Ostensibly, yes. There is no evidence to falsify whether Hemalurgy can steal other magics' powers thus far.
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From a storytelling viewpoint, wouldn't this make Hemalurgy a bit overpowered?
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Also from a storytelling viewpoint, saying that Hemalurgy can only steal allomantic and feruchemical powers means that Ruin and Preservation must always come as a pair. Presumably, the shattering launched all the shards all over the place and those two wound up together, but could they not have if things had turned out just a little differently? When Sazed says they belong together, does he mean as parts of Adolnasium, or as a pair?
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From HoA Q&A:
Another question, Brandon. Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadriel?
Okay, back to answering spoilers. (Or, in the case of this post, half-answering them.)
To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codse, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.
This seems to say that Hemalurgy would only work with Allomancy and Feruchemy.
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But, of the possibilities of places where Hemalurgic spikes can go, Sazed stated that the Lord Ruler only knew of three. Three! He spent the next thousand years trying to discover more, only to fail.
Not places to put spikes, but specific hemalurgic creations.
From HoA Q&A:
Another question, Brandon. Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadriel?
Okay, back to answering spoilers. (Or, in the case of this post, half-answering them.)
To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codse, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.
This seems to say that Hemalurgy would only work with Allomancy and Feruchemy.
Then how come there are the four metals (iron, tin, zinc, copper) that steal human attributes? (strength, senses, mental and emotional fortitude) Plus the seven metals that we don't even know what they do?
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But, of the possibilities of places where Hemalurgic spikes can go, Sazed stated that the Lord Ruler only knew of three. Three! He spent the next thousand years trying to discover more, only to fail.
Not places to put spikes, but specific hemalurgic creations.
From HoA Q&A:
Another question, Brandon. Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadriel?
Okay, back to answering spoilers. (Or, in the case of this post, half-answering them.)
To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codse, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.
This seems to say that Hemalurgy would only work with Allomancy and Feruchemy.
Then how come there are the four metals (iron, tin, zinc, copper) that steal human attributes? (strength, senses, mental and emotional fortitude) Plus the seven metals that we don't even know what they do?
In this case, the human attributes that are stolen come from part of preservation that ended up in people's souls. It's totally tied to the duality between Ruin and Preservation.
Preservation and Ruin, it seems to me, are paired to each other more closely than the other shards. They both seem to draw power from metals, for one thing, which doesn't match anything we've seen in the other shard worlds at all. Their natures are clearly linked thematically, unlike Endowment, which doesn't seem to have any relationship to either. And what the heck is the Dor?
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Kind of hard to tell if other Shards have similar relations. We only know of Endowment. There could be a counterpart we just haven't seen.
The Dor is much more mysterious because we don't have a Shard's name or purpose to go along with it.
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But, of the possibilities of places where Hemalurgic spikes can go, Sazed stated that the Lord Ruler only knew of three. Three! He spent the next thousand years trying to discover more, only to fail.
Not places to put spikes, but specific hemalurgic creations.
From HoA Q&A:
Another question, Brandon. Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadriel?
Okay, back to answering spoilers. (Or, in the case of this post, half-answering them.)
To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codse, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.
This seems to say that Hemalurgy would only work with Allomancy and Feruchemy.
Then how come there are the four metals (iron, tin, zinc, copper) that steal human attributes? (strength, senses, mental and emotional fortitude) Plus the seven metals that we don't even know what they do?
In this case, the human attributes that are stolen come from part of preservation that ended up in people's souls. It's totally tied to the duality between Ruin and Preservation.
Preservation and Ruin, it seems to me, are paired to each other more closely than the other shards. They both seem to draw power from metals, for one thing, which doesn't match anything we've seen in the other shard worlds at all. Their natures are clearly linked thematically, unlike Endowment, which doesn't seem to have any relationship to either. And what the heck is the Dor?
The impression I get from some of what Brandon has said is that the magic comes from the shards' interaction with humanity, with different genetics affecting the magic. I'd say that this specific duality is created by not only Ruin and Preservation interecting with humans, but also from interacting with each other. The fact that they are opposing forces probably has little to do with it other than the different forms the magic takes reflecting the different aspects of the shards. I suspect if you put, say, Endowment in place of Ruin, you'd wind up with a similar sort of setup minus the direct antagonism of two outright opposite forces.
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Kind of hard to tell if other Shards have similar relations. We only know of Endowment. There could be a counterpart we just haven't seen.
The Dor is much more mysterious because we don't have a Shard's name or purpose to go along with it.
What, you think there's a Shard out there called Revocation (or something similar) that we haven't met? ;)
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But, of the possibilities of places where Hemalurgic spikes can go, Sazed stated that the Lord Ruler only knew of three. Three! He spent the next thousand years trying to discover more, only to fail.
Not places to put spikes, but specific hemalurgic creations.
From HoA Q&A:
Another question, Brandon. Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadriel?
Okay, back to answering spoilers. (Or, in the case of this post, half-answering them.)
To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codse, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.
This seems to say that Hemalurgy would only work with Allomancy and Feruchemy.
Then how come there are the four metals (iron, tin, zinc, copper) that steal human attributes? (strength, senses, mental and emotional fortitude) Plus the seven metals that we don't even know what they do?
In this case, the human attributes that are stolen come from part of preservation that ended up in people's souls. It's totally tied to the duality between Ruin and Preservation.
Preservation and Ruin, it seems to me, are paired to each other more closely than the other shards. They both seem to draw power from metals, for one thing, which doesn't match anything we've seen in the other shard worlds at all. Their natures are clearly linked thematically, unlike Endowment, which doesn't seem to have any relationship to either. And what the heck is the Dor?
The impression I get from some of what Brandon has said is that the magic comes from the shards' interaction with humanity, with different genetics affecting the magic. I'd say that this specific duality is created by not only Ruin and Preservation interecting with humans, but also from interacting with each other. The fact that they are opposing forces probably has little to do with it other than the different forms the magic takes reflecting the different aspects of the shards. I suspect if you put, say, Endowment in place of Ruin, you'd wind up with a similar sort of setup minus the direct antagonism of two outright opposite forces.
It's certainly possible that if we had endowment and preservation, we would get three magic systems: allomancy, awakening, and whatever-it-would-be. Thing is, though, we don't even know if it is possible for Preservation to create without Ruin to help. Their powers are independently so powerful, yet limited, I don't know if it makes sense to consider anything made by one that doesn't have the other. Certainly Preservation by himself has nothing to offer.
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But, of the possibilities of places where Hemalurgic spikes can go, Sazed stated that the Lord Ruler only knew of three. Three! He spent the next thousand years trying to discover more, only to fail.
Not places to put spikes, but specific hemalurgic creations.
From HoA Q&A:
Another question, Brandon. Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadriel?
Okay, back to answering spoilers. (Or, in the case of this post, half-answering them.)
To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codse, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.
This seems to say that Hemalurgy would only work with Allomancy and Feruchemy.
Then how come there are the four metals (iron, tin, zinc, copper) that steal human attributes? (strength, senses, mental and emotional fortitude) Plus the seven metals that we don't even know what they do?
In this case, the human attributes that are stolen come from part of preservation that ended up in people's souls. It's totally tied to the duality between Ruin and Preservation.
Preservation and Ruin, it seems to me, are paired to each other more closely than the other shards. They both seem to draw power from metals, for one thing, which doesn't match anything we've seen in the other shard worlds at all. Their natures are clearly linked thematically, unlike Endowment, which doesn't seem to have any relationship to either. And what the heck is the Dor?
The impression I get from some of what Brandon has said is that the magic comes from the shards' interaction with humanity, with different genetics affecting the magic. I'd say that this specific duality is created by not only Ruin and Preservation interecting with humans, but also from interacting with each other. The fact that they are opposing forces probably has little to do with it other than the different forms the magic takes reflecting the different aspects of the shards. I suspect if you put, say, Endowment in place of Ruin, you'd wind up with a similar sort of setup minus the direct antagonism of two outright opposite forces.
It's certainly possible that if we had endowment and preservation, we would get three magic systems: allomancy, awakening, and whatever-it-would-be. Thing is, though, we don't even know if it is possible for Preservation to create without Ruin to help. Their powers are independently so powerful, yet limited, I don't know if it makes sense to consider anything made by one that doesn't have the other. Certainly Preservation by himself has nothing to offer.
What I'm saying though, is that because the people in Scadrial are different from the people on the Warbreaker planet, you'd get an entirely different set of magic systems from the Endowment/Preservation/Scadrial setup, with no Allomancy or Awakening at all.
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Maybe the worlds themselves in combination with the shards present affect the development of the magic systems. Maybe ruin and preservation both became metal based (ie their bodies are metal, and all the magic systems have to do with metal) after arriving on Scadriel.
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"To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codse, then take the power from them. "
It seems that you don't need to be Scadrial to use Hemalurgy, so if there were a evil planet hopper (not Hoid, because I think he's a good guy), they could use Hemalurgy and steal someone's Allomancy or Furchemy. Maybe there's an Anti-Hoid who would do this. Or maybe Hoid has been fooling us. Or maybe this is just good for someone's Kuvudu cage match.
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Dilaf reveled in blood and death, Pushing and Pulling himself towards his fleeing prey.
He landed adroitly in front of the startled man, relying on his Dakhor markings to deflect the bits of metal that the man tossed. His eyes were bloodshot, flashing with an insane light. He pulled out a spike and stepped towards the cornered man. "You can't escape."
Lol. That's a terrifying thought.
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Maybe the worlds themselves in combination with the shards present affect the development of the magic systems. Maybe ruin and preservation both became metal based (ie their bodies are metal, and all the magic systems have to do with metal) after arriving on Scadriel.
Precisely, there are probably a lot of factors that create the magic systems, we just don't know all of them or how they work.
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This certainly has become an interesting conversion, I'm going to try and think of something to add.
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Might I direct you all who've responded to this thread to our discussion here (http://www.adonalsium.net/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=305) at www.adonalsium.net? Please join us!
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Might I direct you all who've responded to this thread to our discussion here (http://www.adonalsium.net/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=305) at www.adonalsium.net? Please join us!
Okay, that's about the fifth topic you've posted in advertising your site without contributing to the conversation. It's a tad annoying.