Timewaster's Guide Archive
General => Rants and Stuff => Topic started by: Peter Ahlstrom on June 20, 2004, 11:51:43 PM
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This is probably the thing that makes me madder than anything else: when someone at church says it is a commandment to date.
Baloney!!! It's a commandment to get married and have kids, but dating is NOT a commandment. It's NOT a God-instituted system, and it's NOT scriptural.
While I'm ranting I'll say that another related thing that ticks me off is how often they give a chastity talk in church, yet never actually help people find someone to marry. I estimate that I am 100,000 times more likely to be involved in a car accident in the next 5 years than I am to have sex. I would rather they spend time providing the opportunity for sex (i.e. with someone I am married to, meaning that they provide some assistance on that wise) than spend so much time telling me not to. Am I alone in this? Every time I sit through one of those talks I cannot fathom how to apply it to my own life since I am in approximately zero danger of getting anywhere close to having sex.
Anyway about dating: here's what else sucks: the pressure. All the "anxiously engaged" talks. And the fact that there's a huge double standard. Girls are not expected to exert any effort toward getting married. Guys are always ragged on.
Hey, if there's someone I would be interested in dating, I will ask that person out. I estimate that approximately 50% of the girls I have gone on dates with frequent this message board, so they can attest to this fact. And I HAVE actually been asked on a date by one person, who is also here. (And by the way, all the girls I dated here are married now.) But this is basically a statistical anomaly.
In all the singles wards I've been in, never once has a girl from them asked me out. Yet I make an effort to go to all the functions. I go to ward prayer, break the fast, family home evening, linger longer, ward temple trips, and other things of that sort. I could be staying at home reading books or using the internet, but no, I take the effort to do all those things. But today in Priesthood meeting (after the sisters in the ward shockingly provided the Elder's quorum with Father's Day banana splits as reminders that we should be fathers someday and in return for the dumb practice of giving all the sisters flowers on Mother's Day [no mention of the even stupider practice of giving flowers to all the sisters on Valentine's Day, something I refuse to participate in whenever a ward I'm in does it--come on, Valentine's Day is only for women?]) where the Heber J. Grant lesson was on the value of hard work, the person giving the lesson started talking about how we need to work hard to date, and someone said that all those things I mentioned earlier (FHE, etc) do not count as working toward marriage. The nerve! And THEN someone threw out the "dating is a commandment" line. Baloney. Balderdash.
I'm thinking of starting a website to expound my views on this subject. Unless someone knows of one that already exists. Anyone?
[message too long; continued]
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There has GOT to be a better alternative than this stupid system of dating espoused by our modern LDS (and non-LDS) society.
Personally I've decided on something that I will use the next time I see someone I'm actually interesting in getting to know better for the purpose of mate selection evaluation: date splitting. I'll ask her out and provide for whatever it is I want to do on the date. But then if she wants to go out again, she has to be the one to ask. And she has to provide for everything on the second date. And if there is to be a third, then it's my turn. And so forth. Also, if any girl happens to ask me out (Society Forbid), then I will expect her to privide for it and be quite happy to return the favor for date #2. [I have yet to decide whether in this system 2 dates should be mandatory in all fairness.]
Why would I prefer this system over dutch? This also should help to avoid the huge lying game (lying meaning not telling the truth--for whatever reason, even if the truth might hurt someone's feelings) that mainly girls and sometimes guys resort to when it comes to dating. If you get asked out, it means the person is interested in you. If not, they're not interested. (That's why I'm not sure about making 2 dates mandatory.)
And then something that would maybe be enough of a different problem that it would do for a separate thread, but--it sucks how it's impossible to tell if someone is even interested in looking to get married, or even if they are already seriously dating someone else. Now, in Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan books there's a very interesting system mentioned approximately twice that is used by the Betans--the very liberal planet--where girls will wear different kinds of earrings signifying their status: looking for something serious, looking for something casual, involved in a serious committed relationship, etc. No mention of whether guys wear earrings too (such would be only fair), but something like this would be a great improvement over our current absence of any signs beyond the engagement/wedding ring thing. I'm not suggesting that earrings would be the best way to do it but it's something that would make the answer quite obvious and it seems to me it would be quite effective.
Okay, I guess there's one more thing. People always criticize me for saying I'm looking for a tall girl, 6'+. Hey, if something else happens, if someone asks me out and I end up hitting it off famously with her and we click and all but she doesn't fit what I thought I was looking for, I'm all cool with that. But that doesn't mean I don't have something I'm looking for. There's things I find attractive, and things I don't find attractive. Not necessarily that I find those things unattractive--though there are some things I find unattractive--but that they're just not things I care about. There's things I don't care about and things I do. Why do I find those things attractive or not? I have only very foggy ideas on that. And I also feel I am opening myself up to even MORE ridicule if I mention what else I look for. What's the big deal there? I'm not looking for someone perfect, but all of the things I'm looking for exist in plenty of women out there, though I've yet found few who have the right combination. Do I expect I'll eventually marry someone who does have that combination? It seems unlikely. Frankly I am dubious any marriage involving me as one of the parties will happen during this lifetime, but there's that one saying--if you can find someone who will satisfy 80% of your needs, you're in very good shape. So hey, miss 80%, if you ignore my hair (or lack thereof) there's surely something I can overlook. (Or if you LIKE my hair (or lack thereof) then there's probably some other need I won't fulfill--perhaps the ability to enjoy Rosencranz and Guildenstern are Dead, for instance.)
Argh. Here's really what I'd prefer: a national mandatory database of people who want to get married, where you say exactly what you're looking for, and a computer hooks you up. Lying punishable by stiff fines--but other than that it would be free. The church should run it.
Anyway this seems sufficiently ranty. I'd be interested to hear what people think about my website idea. Though I'd prefer not to put effort into a website right now, actually. Alas.
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I guess I thought that's what all those lds dating sites were for.
I grew up heard my mom giving a lot of these arguments, as an older single woman, Ookla. So even if I'm married and it's no longer a problem for me personally... I do think the whole LDS attitude sucks. A lot.
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er...when were you an older single woman? o.o Or are you referring to your mother? Okay I'm assuming you did mean your mother...so okay, yay. Someone thinks along similar lines. Let's form a club.
Those LDS dating sites aren't free, and they don't have enough specific information for my tastes.
Oh yeah I just remembered, in my last temple recommend interview at the end the stake presidency member asked me if I was anxiously engaged in dating, so I started into my spiel. He clearly got tired of it after a few minutes and quickly finished up the interview.
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So many things I want to touch on, and yet my mind will only allow me to remember a few.
My thumbs up to the Catholic Church for staying out of my dating life, and my thumbs down to them for not being so active like these LDS things I hear about. I've not done much dating, and right now I'm trying to go about doing so with this one ladyfriend, and yet I'm clueless.
A better way to know who's looking and who isn't? Yeah, that'd be a nice help.
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Sorry, I didn't realize that placing that phrase there would be confusing.
And none of the sites are free?? There's got to be a dozen of them, some of them have to be free. This one seems to be free.
http://www.ldshearts.com/
Or are they all the kind where it's free to browse but to like get "full" access to the site you have to shell out?
Unfortunately I probably won't be of much help in this thread, unless you are interested in witty, biting comebacks to throw at people who bug you about not being married. I've already got a couple in mind....
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ya know I try not to mix religion and dating(intentionally) last time that happenned... well lets just say I cant look at a priest without laughing anymore
back on tiopic I dont think it matters who asks who out, just as long as bothe people like each other, it shouldnt matter who makes the first move, or second for that matter.
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/me waits for Ookla to react to the fact that the teenagers are giving him sympathy for dating problems.
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that one may be free, but the "about" thing only says that becoming a member is free--not what that entails or whether they charge for anything else. I've looked a bit in the past and it seems that on most of them you have to pay for something.
The biggest problem though is that with so many sites like this none of them are anywhere near comprehensive, and only a small percentage of the people out there use sites like that.
If there were a site that had EVERYONE on it and charged you $20 if you actually got married, I'd go for that.
Now that I do have an income I'm open to actually looking. It's not a huge high priority or anything...
Gemm, in the LDS church we have this Plan of Salvation thing...getting married is an important part of fulfilling God's plan, so they care about everyone doing it. Well, there is no "they" in the church, since all the church leaders are normal church members, and any member could potentially be called into a leadership position--it's all volunteer based. Well, I don't know how familiar you are with it...stakes (which are geographical divisions consisting of up to 10 or so wards, each ward being a specific congregation based on geography with a set Sunday meeting time [though these times usually rotate yearly among the 2 or 3 wards sharing a single church building]) usually have a branch or ward devoted to young single adults under age 30--the bishop of the ward and his 2 councilors are older people called from the married population of the stake [and bishops serve for up to 10 years maybe, though I don't think I've ever had a bishop serve that long], but all the rest of the positions in the ward are filled by the young single adults themselves.
Anyway... I do like that they have YSA wards, even if I've never felt hugely comfortable in them. I feel much less comfortable in a family ward. I like that YSA wards exist, but I think that if they care so much about people getting married then they should do more about getting them married than just throw them all into a building together and hope something happens. I'm not one of those people who think there's THE ONE person out there for you to marry, but neither am I one who thinks that you'd be compatible enough with 50% of the people that are there. YSA wards ARE quite successful at marrying off a percentage of their members, but it does not work well for everyone. People are different, and what is effective for some is not effective for all.
Maybe 90% of people use Microsoft Windows, but at least there's Macintosh and *n*x for the rest of us.
The LDS Church's genealogy software is available for ONLY the PC. [There was a Mac version before, but it hasn't been updated for 15 years or so.] If you see what I'm saying.
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/me waits for Ookla to react to the fact that the teenagers are giving him sympathy for dating problems.
Like I know how old people are...
Sheesh. If you're a teenager and you're dating at all, consider that a success.
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Whew! What a post. Thanks for shaking things up a bit, Ookla. Was getting a tad dry around her.
I think the problem is that for the older generation, dating worked better. I'm not exactly sure why, but I think that the system was more appropriate to their time. Perhaps the difference in gender roles now is to blame, or perhaps it can be attributed the proliferation of singles bars and other 'sexual revolution' establishments that are the common method for dating outside of our particular religious community.
However, either way, dating just doesn't quite seem to work any more, and the members of the older generation can't fathom what is so problematic with us.
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That's interesting, EUOL. What do you mean by 'dating' in this, exactly? Do you mean the normal Mormon practice of "I'll go out to dinner with a series of people I barely know and maybe I'll fall in love with one of them." ?
If so, I have to agree.
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Ookla, I can't tell you how many times in the last number of years I've sat through the chastity talk thinking the same thing. I think I (or maybe it was someone else who was just as frustrated) even raised my hand at one point in one of them and said, "Um, this is all well and good, but this doesn't apply to me. Ya wanna put me in a position where this *might* apply?"
Here's what I'll tell you from a girl's perspective, though. I'm nearly 30 (augh) and in the last five years, I've gone out on maybe 4 dates. Never a second date. I make friends, I hang out, I express my interest and suggest activities if we have mutual interests.
But there's no way I'll ever ask a guy out again.
You have to understand--and perhaps you're different, but very few guys know this till it happens to them--when a girl asks a guy out, he gets all nervous: "Oh, wow, she must like me a lot, I'm not ready for that, I don't like her like that" etc. And they run scared. When all the girl is thinking is what a guy would be thinking had he asked her out the first time--that she'd like to hang out with him more, get to know him. But a girl asking a guy out--nothing good has ever come of it, in my experience.
One thing I've learned in my life: if a guy is interested in me, he'll ask me out. And usually they don't ask me out, so I just have to assume that I'm not the type of girl guys are interested in. As I've ranted about before, I can be the "friend-girl" all I want, but they never want more.
Dating is just messed up. Nobody gets it, and the older we get, the more stressful it is, and the more isolated we are.
I think if we all dated more it wouldn't be such a huge deal when someone got asked out, so we wouldn't have the stupid stealth dating and guys stressing over whether the girl is too into him or whatever. As it is, most of the girls I know don't go on dates. Ever. And so if you only go on one date a year, or one date every two years, then a date becomes a big thing, something you've finally qualified for or something. We put way too much pressure on ourselves.
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Oh, and I've been really enjoying www.ldslinkup.com. It's not really a dating site, more of an LDS Friendster. It's searchable by interests, though, and a variety of other things, and it has a message board (which is actually annoying me right now because every single thread turns into mindless banter, but anyway).
It's free right now, though they say eventually they plan on making people pay for it. You can't browse without registering, though. The fun thing about it is that you can see how you're linked to people--who knows who, that kind of thing. It's got single and married people on it. You add your friends, they add theirs, etc. I'm stacer on there as well.
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*I'm succsesfull!*
You guys think too much ya know that? Dont get stressed, just hang out with them in a social enviroment, and if something is gonna happen the people around you will slowly decrease in number each time you hang out, until it's just two of you. besides internet dating... imho is a BAD IDEA. I know it works for some people, but it's not personal enough, ya got to actually meet the person.
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Now, for Ookla's sake, tell him how old you are. 14 was it, or 15?
Also, in general? The way to respond to someone who's really upset about something is never to say "Hey, just stop worrying about it."
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uh I'm 16
but really it's not that he's worrying too much , just thinking too much, I mean the way to meet people is out in the world not on the internet, searching for them by interest. some of the happiest couples I know have nothing in common.
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I actually agree about internet dating. I don't use that site for dating, more for the same kind of thing I use TWG for--hanging out with friends. I used to like its message boards for that reason, which is why the constant senseless banter frustrates me.
And I also agree that hanging out sometimes works. But what you wouldn't understand at your age is that as you get older, people get more guarded. So even someone like me, who has always been and still considers herself fairly open emotionally, easygoing, etc., can get really frustrated with the whole situation. I really don't think he's overstating the situation. LDS dating when you're over 25 can be extremely annoying.
And another thing: it can be very hard to meet someone who is LDS and who shares not only your same values but who you're compatible with personally, especially if you're kind of unique and quirky. Yes, you get out and you do stuff. But if you'll read back, Ookla *does* get out. He *does* do a number of things that get him out there meeting people.
One thing I would say, though, Ookla--in relation to a thread you once posted about a month or so ago, part of dating is being interested in other people, even if you don't particularly think they have/do anything you're interested in at first. I find that the more I talk to people, the more I find we have common ground somewhere, and the more I am interested in what they do, the more interesting they become to me, and I learn about things I never thought to want to learn about.
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Yeah but there are alternatives to church events when you reach a certain age... especially in the west where the member population is high. Clubs and hobby groups can be great places to meet people (and you have the added bonus of having something in common) and in many ways at an advanced age they tend to be a better place to meet people than church events. People in clubs tend to be a little less guarded because they are doing what they like to do. Living in the LA area Ookla should have no problem finding people who share his interests.
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That's true. One thing I loved about BYU was the sheer number of people there who were LDS, so I didn't have to rely on my ward for friendships (though I still made most of my friends through my ward). TLE, for example, was great. I wish I had discovered it before my last year there.
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Yeah in Greensboro the single member population was absurdly low. Our stake had maybe 2 dozen or so active singles, some of them commuting from as far as Eden NC (almost 45 minutes to an hour away) It wasn't unusual for singles to go to dances in Raliegh (an hour + away) or Charlotte (the same) just to meet new people. Thats rough dating... if you stick to members that is...
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May I play Devil's Advocate here?
Ookla, you obviously sound like you really do want to get married. If that is the case, then why are you fighting so much against the system? True, dating is not perfect, and neither are singles wards, but, at the present time, they're probably your best option for getting married. (How many people in the world get married by NOT dating?)
Here's the thing: If dating is hard enough, then why are you setting up even more obstacles for yourself? The "date splitting" idea seems like it will only impede your dating attempts, not ease them. When I met my wife, I didn't call her again for a couple weeks, but she has told me that if I hadn't finally called her for a second date, she would have NEVER called me--not because she didn't like me, just because she's shy. Insisting that girls ask you for the second date seems like it's only DEcreasing your chances. Fighting an ideological battle against the concept and practices of LDS dating is NOT going to get you married any time soon.
Along those same lines, why do you insist on finding a free online dating service? The membership costs are relatively low (about the same you'd spend on dinner and a movie). And pay sites are more likely to lead you to people who are serious about getting into a relationship.
Like I said, just playing Devil's Advocate.
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Well, Ookla, I sympathize. I just got back from my older brother's wedding in Nauvoo. He's finally gotten married at age 34. And now that he's married, I am now the oldest unmarried child. I can't tell you the number of times I was asked: "When are you getting married?", "Where's your girlfriend?", "Who are you dating?", and the ever so sensitive, "Why aren't you married?"
To be fair, my brother who just got married, didn't even date his wife until after a year of emailing each other. They did the whole long distance relationship thing that everyone says doesn't work. They were set up by my parents. My Dad just so happened to be her singles' ward bishop and my Mom just likes to meddle.
So now I have a lot of pressure from my family to get married. This even after I explained that I'm recovering from a nervous break-down and it just may not be the right time for me to meet someone and get married. Am I working on getting married? Yes. Does it mean that I'm dating lots of people and am likely to get engaged soon? No. Would I like to be married? Yes. Am I in a situation to get married? Not currently. Am I trying to get into a sitation where I can get married? Yes. People in LDS culture just seem to over-simplify the whole process of finding an eternal companion.
I also spent a lot of time arguing with some of my relatives that have no clue what it's like to be in your late twenties and still be single. It's just not the same as your early twenties. For one, in your late-twenties priorities just aren't the same. Another is that you don't have time/interest to waist on dating people just for the sake of dating. Kind of goes with having a clearer idea of what your looking for and being more experienced in having crappy/fruitless relationships.
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Im glad I never went through that.
After my parents divorce, both of my parents had trouble advising me about my dating life. Or at least thinking they could meddle in it.
So I meandered and finally found the girl of my dreams...
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Not to change the subject, but I went to that site fuzzy put up and one of the first people I saw was a guy in my ward! I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Not at him, but that I actually recognize someone on the site. It was too funny.
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They did the whole long distance relationship thing that everyone says doesn't work.
Hey! It does so work, you just have to have the right relationship to start with. Also, it sucks. But it works.
/me nods
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Gah! I just watched another stupid commerical for "Outback Jack" and it hit me!
A Mormon reality dating show. We can make millions and find dates for people at the same time!
</tounge in cheek>
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It would probably help if both the males and females weren't so secretive about whom they liked and did not. And weren't so apoxtrisitioned to appropiate your feelings. Maybe things would be easier then. But for now, i will stay confused and lacklustered.
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But Gemm, if dating made sense, where's the fun in that? :)
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I would like to play devils advocate for a while. So I will....
Girls are not expected to exert any effort toward getting married. Guys are always ragged on.
Women have to go on dates. Women have to find a man just like men need to find a woman. The only difference between our searches is that men usually ask the women out, which isn't always true anymore anyway.
Personally I've decided on something that I will use the next time I see someone I'm actually interesting in getting to know better for the purpose of mate selection evaluation: date splitting. I'll ask her out and provide for whatever it is I want to do on the date. But then if she wants to go out again, she has to be the one to ask. And she has to provide for everything on the second date. And if there is to be a third, then it's my turn. And so forth. Also, if any girl happens to ask me out (Society Forbid), then I will expect her to privide for it and be quite happy to return the favor for date #2. [I have yet to decide whether in this system 2 dates should be mandatory in all fairness.]
I find this system to be stupid. I am sorry, but that is my opinion. This is because you are complaining about being able to get a date and you are lowering your chances of having a second date. Imagine telling a girlfriend, "Okay, next time you pay, call me..."
And then something that would maybe be enough of a different problem that it would do for a separate thread, but--it sucks how it's impossible to tell if someone is even interested in looking to get married, or even if they are already seriously dating someone else. Now, in Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan books there's a very interesting system mentioned approximately twice that is used by the Betans--the very liberal planet--where girls will wear different kinds of earrings signifying their status: looking for something serious, looking for something casual, involved in a serious committed relationship, etc. No mention of whether guys wear earrings too (such would be only fair), but something like this would be a great improvement over our current absence of any signs beyond the engagement/wedding ring thing. I'm not suggesting that earrings would be the best way to do it but it's something that would make the answer quite obvious and it seems to me it would be quite effective.
Having a society-wide system of dating is riduculous to ask because there is no way it could ever happen. You would not be able to convince millions of people to dress a certain way or wear something just because you want other people to know what their status is. While the system itself seems like an idea that would work, using it for an entire society would not.
Argh. Here's really what I'd prefer: a national mandatory database of people who want to get married, where you say exactly what you're looking for, and a computer hooks you up. Lying punishable by stiff fines--but other than that it would be free. The church should run it.
Nothing national should be run by any church. As an athiest I would NEVER give any of my information to anything run by a church to help them with their religion, simply because I should not have to go out of my way, in any shape or form, to work for something that I not only don't believe in, but personally think is a ridiculous concept.
As Americans we should never have to date by a computer if we don't want to either. Even if it was not church run, ect., I would rather find someone I like personally than have a computer "hook me up". Having a manditory database of Americans would make this something of the past, and make it become a system I wouldn't like, and don't even like to think about. If you want a computer to hook you up, go to a dating service.
Also, I wouldn't want my taxes pumped up for a system that I didn't plan on using. And I wouldn't want my taxes going to a church. So having an optional national database wouldn't work either. If you want to use a computer it looks like you will have to stick with dating services.
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Um, Gorgon, he was saying that he thought there should be a national database of *church members*. I didn't hear anything about making it federally run. By "mandatory" he probably means about as "mandatory" as 19 year old men going on missions in the LDS church. And I'm thinking you're taking it a little too seriously anyway. He's complaining of something that's very specific to LDS singles in their late 20s.
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Am I the only one who thinks that it's ridiculous for him to giving advice, Devil's advocate or not, since he's not anywhere near Ookla's age, and he's not Mormon, so he doesn't even understand the pressure that comes with being older and single in Mormon culture?
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Give him a break, he's just trying to help. No reason why he can't give his opinion.
Um, this is going to sound stupid, on a slight tanget, but what does LDS stand for?
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and actually his first two points were quite valid...
LDS stands for Latter Day Saints...
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This is because you are complaining about being able to get a date and you are lowering your chances of having a second date.
Actually, I'm not really complaining about being able to get a date. I would prefer to get married without ever going on a date at all.
If getting a date were all I cared about, I would just ask anyone. I don't WANT to marry just anyone, so I'm not going to ask just anyone. And I am through with putting forth all the effort.
Imagine telling a girlfriend, "Okay, next time you pay, call me..."
Exactly. Just imagine it! Isn't it a liberating notion?
I think my date splitting idea makes FAR more sense than the "guy has to set up and pay for all the dates and if the girl doesn't want to date him she makes up stupid excuses and ditches him and doesn't return phone calls and he's just supposed to guess" (and entirely sexist) system now in place. Of course it would have to be explained somehow ahead of time, not just dropped in at the end of the first date. I'm still working on how best to do that.
Will I actually use this idea personally? Right now, I think I shall. When it comes down to it though in emotional things logic goes right out the window, so even though it makes sense to me now, who knows. And I currently think if a girl is so ingrained in this system that SUCKS that she would be too closed-minded to consider my idea, then she doesn't deserve me.
Why don't I want to work the system instead of fighting it? I don't want to just get married. I want to get married to someone who can get along with ME. And I am NOT desperate enough to want to change myself. I like myself fine the way I am, thank you very much.
I never said my society-wide ideas were actually practical to implement. I'm just saying that if such a system were already in place and accepted by everyone, it would work a heck of a lot better than what we have now. I have an idea, people who are married should wear rings so you can tell they're married! Nah, we'll never convince everyone so why even mention the idea.
Anyway my complaint is twofold: the difficulty of FINDING someone I want to date in the first place, and secondly that dating sucks as a preparation for marriage.
(There was a story in the Mormon SF anthology Washed by a Wave of Wind that explored the church setting up three-month "for time" tryout temple sealings. Am I the only one who thought that would actually be an idea worth taking seriously?)
Stacer:
You have to understand--and perhaps you're different, but very few guys know this till it happens to them--when a girl asks a guy out, he gets all nervous: "Oh, wow, she must like me a lot, I'm not ready for that, I don't like her like that" etc. And they run scared. When all the girl is thinking is what a guy would be thinking had he asked her out the first time--that she'd like to hang out with him more, get to know him. But a girl asking a guy out--nothing good has ever come of it, in my experience.
Maybe that's the problem there. Girls don't know what guys want from dates. If a guy asks a girl out, she thinks he'd like to hang out with her more, get to know her? That ain't what it means for me. I have no desire to date someone I just want to hang out with. Any girl I ask out starts off as someone I want to marry.
"Oh, wow, he must like me a lot, I'm not ready for that, I don't like him like that"--I think this is exactly what girls should be thinking when a guy asks them out. That or "Oh, wow, he must like me a lot, I'm ready for that, I like him like that."
I think dating should be something ONLY people who are specifically wanting to get married should be allowed to do. Anyone who thinks that's ridiculous please suggest something else that only people who want to get married can do so that we can sift through the chaff.
If I ask someone out and she sees no potential marriage, she should say no! Or at least tell me up front "I don't see any potential now, but I'll let you know after the date whether I see any then." Asking me out for date #2 would be accepted as admission of perceived potential. (Of course, the incompetence of dating as mate potential measuring stick then factors in. The deck is stacked, and the dealer isn't friendly.)
One thing I've learned in my life: if a guy is interested in me, he'll ask me out. And usually they don't ask me out, so I just have to assume that I'm not the type of girl guys are interested in. As I've ranted about before, I can be the "friend-girl" all I want, but they never want more.
On the other hand, in this regard, I take the same sort of evidence you see and come to exactly the same conclusion as you (but not about you).
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Right now the best way to me to find someone to marry seems to be: blind luck, and/or divine intervention. And you can't be anxiously engaged in either one of those. (These also seem the best ways to get a job.)
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2 quotes, first of all.
(There was a story in the Mormon SF anthology Washed by a Wave of Wind that explored the church setting up three-month "for time" tryout temple sealings. Am I the only one who thought that would actually be an idea worth taking seriously?)
Ok. It's not even 7am and I'm exhausted. That quote seems horrifically sacreligious to me. Were they suggesting they change things so you can get a 3-month trial civil marriage, then if it works out you can get sealed right away? That makes sense. Sounds better, less damning. I'll assume that's what they were talking 'bout.
Right now the best way to me to find someone to marry seems to be: blind luck, and/or divine intervention. And you can't be anxiously engaged in either one of those. (These also seem the best ways to get a job.)
Sucks, but accurate. I know it was devine intervention in my case, but ah well. 'S a good quote. I'm going to use that.
Third. Anyone on this board who knows Ookla personally, from real life is probably going to think (like I do) that his suggestions make perfect sense for him. It's just the people who have never met you and don't know anything about your personality who think you're flying off the handle. You're nifty.
ok. done.
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Exactly. Just imagine it! Isn't it a liberating notion?
Not especially, considering what girls in their late 20's are looking for in a relationship. Stability, Security and a connection. It would be nice to say ok you pay for half the dates, but expecting girls to just realize that they have to pay on the second date in, or that they have to call you back because they aren't hip to your special plan is a bit ambitious.
But yes it would be nice to not funnel hundreds of dollars into series of dates. I think thats because we aren't honest about how much we spend on dates with women. A dinner and movie can break my entertainment budget for the month. (2 people 2 tickets 20 bucks, 30 to 40 bucks for dinner 10 bucks for snacks etc). But who says dates have to cost money either. Figure out some cheap or god forbid free things to do instead of eating or going to movies or whatever is so expensive about dates.
Thats as much of a problem as the issue of paying money for dates.
Your near LA, heck there are tons of things to do for free.
I think that would be more revolutionary and refreshing... not having to pay for dates at all (at least not like other people do).
For instance instead of going out to eat together, cook a meal yourself.
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I was about to say the same thing. What is *really* bothering you, the fact that you have to ask someone out and find something interesting about them, or the fact that you have to pay for it? Because if it's the money, do something that doesn't cost it. Summer's a great time for that, too--go for a bike ride, have a picnic, go to a free outdoor movie (I don't know about LA, but Boston has a Friday night series in the park), go to a Shakespeare in the Park performance (all my examples come from Boston, sorry).
There are plenty of things that cost little to no money. I know plenty of girls who feel comfortable asking a guy the second time if he's already asked her out.
Maybe that's the problem there. Girls don't know what guys want from dates. If a guy asks a girl out, she thinks he'd like to hang out with her more, get to know her? That ain't what it means for me. I have no desire to date someone I just want to hang out with. Any girl I ask out starts off as someone I want to marry.
"Oh, wow, he must like me a lot, I'm not ready for that, I don't like him like that"--I think this is exactly what girls should be thinking when a guy asks them out. That or "Oh, wow, he must like me a lot, I'm ready for that, I like him like that."
I think dating should be something ONLY people who are specifically wanting to get married should be allowed to do. Anyone who thinks that's ridiculous please suggest something else that only people who want to get married can do so that we can sift through the chaff.
Um, here's the problem: yes, your ultimate goal *is* marriage. But you're putting WAY too much pressure on the beginning of a relationship by having to decide whether you'll want to marry this girl BEFORE YOU GO OUT ON ONE DATE. And I don't think the girl should have to decide that either. I think in LDS culture it's a given that you'll both want to pursue that eventually if the relationship goes well. But you really just can't be thinking that seriously on a first date, a second date, a third date... DATES ARE NOT COMMITMENTS. Neither the guy nor the girl should think so. And this is the biggest thing that's messed up about LDS dating, because so many feelings are hurt because one or the other feels like a first date is a commitment.
Like I said before, if we all dated more, one date would not seem that big a deal. We need to get back to what dating is about: having fun with another person. Why would you want to marry someone if you can't enjoy their company?
As a sidenote--yes, I agree with Fuzzy that such suggestions do go with what I know of your personality, though I didn't know you as long as everyone else. I don't think you're flying off the handle, but I do think the ideas don't really float as generalities.
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I have to agree with Stacer's comments--dating is not (and should not be) a commitment. It sounds more like you're looking for a business deal--cutting all of the romance and fun out of meeting someone, and getting right down to setting the terms.
Right now the best way to me to find someone to marry seems to be: blind luck, and/or divine intervention. And you can't be anxiously engaged in either one of those. (These also seem the best ways to get a job.)
If you want to look at it from a divine intervention perspective, think of dating as your mission, and marraige as baptism. (Non-LDS forum members can probably ignore all of this.) How many street contacts does it take to get into a first discussion? 50? 100? And then how many first discussions lead to a second discussion? 10? 20? And how many lead to a baptism? The point is that you can't not date and still expect things to progress toward a serious relationship or marraige. For that matter, you can't avoid dating while you're waiting for The One to come along. That's like street contacting, but not talking to anybody until you're certain that you see someone who will get baptized. The truth of missionary work is that you never know who will listen, because you never really know their hearts. There's a parallel with dating--you can't really judge someone as relationship/marraige material without getting to know them and dating is one of the best ways to do that.
I'm all in favor of being discriminating. After all, your decision of who you're marrying is going to affect you for eternity. I'm certainly not saying you should lower your standards or settle. I'm just saying that by not dating you're effectively taking yourself off the market -- not declaring yourself as eager to marry (you complain that there ought to be a better method to know who wants to get married, but what kind of message are you sending to girls? What is a girl supposed to think when you don't ask people out regularly, and then you wish that they'd pay? Are they supposed to just guess that you're wanting to get married, or even have a serious relationship?)
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no no, my biggest problem is that the church people make such a big deal about getting married but don't help you at all.
I'm too busy today to respond to the rest but I'll probably get to it in a couple days.
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Ok I dont get that at all. you should be thankful church people dont help that much. Getting married is the most spiritual and personal thing you can do. Its not like coming over to help with washing a car, or doing a food drive. The church does plenty to help you start meeting other people. Youth dances, D&C classes, heck they even run several colleges. Once upon a time they had singles wards too and that proved to be a bad thing. I think Euol or maybe mustard said it best when he compared marriage to a mission. You dont give up trying because the method sucks. Because it has a low rate of success. The Church is there for all kinds of support, but ultimately if falls upon your shoulders to go out and find a wife. Dont say that they havent helped when they've already given you tons of ways to attract one. Things like a code of living that should make you highly attractive to the right woman, a sense of decency, morality and honesty. Reverence and meekness, and strong courage when the time is right. In theory it should have also given you a a running dialog with the lord allmighty and his son Jesus Christ and finally the holy spirit. The membership is even there with cool dating ideas and tips but no one is going to be able to make it easier for you to find someone, because they cant, and because even if they did, the bulk of people wouldnt listen.
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bingo.
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Ok I dont get that at all. you should be thankful church people dont help that much. Getting married is the most spiritual and personal thing you can do. Its not like coming over to help with washing a car, or doing a food drive. The church does plenty to help you start meeting other people. Youth dances, D&C classes, heck they even run several colleges. Once upon a time they had singles wards too and that proved to be a bad thing. I think Euol or maybe mustard said it best when he compared marriage to a mission. You dont give up trying because the method sucks. Because it has a low rate of success. The Church is there for all kinds of support, but ultimately if falls upon your shoulders to go out and find a wife. Dont say that they havent helped when they've already given you tons of ways to attract one. Things like a code of living that should make you highly attractive to the right woman, a sense of decency, morality and honesty. Reverence and meekness, and strong courage when the time is right. In theory it should have also given you a a running dialog with the lord allmighty and his son Jesus Christ and finally the holy spirit. The membership is even there with cool dating ideas and tips but no one is going to be able to make it easier for you to find someone, because they cant, and because even if they did, the bulk of people wouldnt listen.
Hmm...I must be married already, since they've been helping me so long and I've been taking advantage of it! Obviously this system works for everyone, since even Sheri Dew is married. There's no need for any sort of alternatives for people who have social and personality differences, since everyone is exactly the same and responds the same way to circumstances.
Makes me wonder why people in the Bible messed with that arranged marriage thing. God probably implemented dating long ago, but took it from the earth because the people were too wicked, until it was restored in D&C section 139.
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I don't WANT to marry just anyone, so I'm not going to ask just anyone.
Huh, if you don't want to marry just anyone why are you wondering why they took out arranged marriages? This is probably the EXCACT REASON. I mean, you would be stuck in an "eternal bond" with someone you didn't even get to choose? Plus it's a void of human rights.
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Violation of human rights? You dont know much about arranged marriages do you?
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Okay, I don't know too much about anglican arranged marriages, so I am basing my knowledge of arranged marriages on my knowledge of oriental arranged marriages. Is there a large difference? I was going for the human right of choice, the right to choose things that affect your life. If I am thinking something incorrect then by all means correct me. It is extremely possible my last point was incorrect, if there is more to the Anglican form of arranged marriages.
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If you don't want advice don't post asking for it and then insult people for trying to help out
Honestly though I don't think you are taking advantage of the base that they've built. You admit that you openly dislike the structure of dating that everyone else accepts. You wait for other people to do the leg work (ie girls call you back, pay etc...). God helps those who help themselves man.
Its hard to figure out what kind of help you really want beyond someone pushing a full fledged marriage candidate in front of you with a hat full of money offering to pay for all of your dates.
Nothings that easy. Nowhere in the Bible or Book of Mormon does it say... and at age 28 Ookla will be granted a wife, a great job, and all the things he desires. Im sorry if the culture there is getting on your case about being single, Im sorry you don't like being single. At some point your going to have to say hey, I need to get out there and meet people, and then if I like spending time with them then Im going to do whatever it takes to stay with those people.
I met my wife in high school when she tried to sell me a box of Grapefruit. I dated her until I graduated, we broke up and I didn't see her for almost 4 years. I never expected to see her again actually because we broke up because she got into a party scene I didn't like, Drugs, Alcohol the whole deal. And I came back one winter and saw her and she was almost about to die. No lie, jaundiced skin,cyrotic liver the whole deal. So I didn't talk to her for a while, it was just too painful. And then I got stationed here and on a whim I called her and she had gotten over that stage of her life and I was ready and it didn't come down to who paid for dates or who asked who. We wanted to be together as much as possible. We knew we were right for each other.
So these girls you want to call you back and pay, you really don't want to marry, because you don't get the soul ache that comes from meeting the right person at the right time. None of that dating stuff matters when that happens and nobody else can help you experience that. So Im sorry if I don't get what kind of help your asking for.
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If you don't want advice don't post asking for it and then insult people for trying to help out
So... where exactly was he asking for advice? Gee, sure wasn't in the post he started with anyway. See the thread up top? Rants and stuff? He was ranting. He has a right to rant. If someone volunteers advice I don't want to hear, I'm totally justified in blowing them off.
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Fair enough, I just dont like being blown off, or being the only one responded too when Im saying the same things as other people on the same thread. Ie. I thought it was rude to quote the whole of a post I made and then make it seem like I was saying something other than what I was with the comments underneath. I never suggested that there wasnt an alternative to the way dating works now, but rocking the boat while screaming and scaring the fish with dynamite seems to working just great for him neh?(Ok so I am now jokingly). The problem with the alternate route is that you need to be able to tell someone what your expecting and it doesn't sound like thats what's happening. If a girl expects a guy to call her back, and the guy doesn't say something like,... hey if you liked this date, then you call me (only with much more poise and tact) then no one should have any reasonable expectation to get a call back from the girl (who by the way is now puzzled you never called and asked her back out and suddenly wondering if she did something wrong) Likewise if the guy wants her to pay then that needs to be out in the open... along with the reason for doing it... because its only fair.
I also think its unfair and patently untrue to say that the church has done nothing to help people out dating. Individual members maybe need to say less to people about what they want them to do, but the Church offers tons of way for singles to meet each other and plenty of guidance both through counseling and spiritual means. The Bishop for instance was a lot of help for me when I was having relationship issues as was the rest of the priesthood when I got to talk to them in a more serious way. A lot of responsibility for dating and marriage are on the person looking to get married and not anyone else's.
Perhaps separating the members from the church in this situation would rankle me a bit less.
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Jeff, I guess I DID read your post wrong. I apologize. SOMETHING I read in the thread gave me the impression that people had the opinion my post was in reaction to.
The problem with the alternate route is that you need to be able to tell someone what your expecting and it doesn't sound like thats what's happening.
Well it's not happening because I've never tried it (or expected it) yet. As I said earlier, "Of course it would have to be explained somehow ahead of time, not just dropped in at the end of the first date. I'm still working on how best to do that."
Not especially, considering what girls in their late 20's are looking for in a relationship. Stability, Security and a connection. It would be nice to say ok you pay for half the dates, but expecting girls to just realize that they have to pay on the second date in, or that they have to call you back because they aren't hip to your special plan is a bit ambitious.
I can't offer stability or security (at least financially? what else would you mean?), and I don't know what you mean by connection. That doesn't seem like it's going to change soon, so...I guess I shouldn't date? (And church people shouldn't bug me about getting married without first asking me how secure my finances are?) But as I said, I wouldn't just expect girls to guess I wanted them to call me or pay (only if pay is involved of course--they can arrange non-pay dates as easily as me)--I would explain it before the first date.
So these girls you want to call you back and pay, you really don't want to marry, because you don't get the soul ache that comes from meeting the right person at the right time. None of that dating stuff matters when that happens and nobody else can help you experience that.
Your personal story sounds like an example of divine intervention to me. And I think I already said dating isn't a good way to get to marry someone.
I also think its unfair and patently untrue to say that the church has done nothing to help people out dating.
Okay. Passive help then. But no active help. Just active harassment.
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You know, I don't know how much work you've put into getting married. Yet, after hearing your recent rants, Ookla, you just sound lazy about getting married. Like you expect it to just happen without a lot of effort.
From how I understand it, getting married is supposed to be a hard, stressful, time-consuming event. I guess you have to put so much work into it so that you dread getting divorced (or widowed) and then having to start the whole process again.
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Hear, hear, 42.
Ookla, in your first post you yourself mentioned the many opportunities that the church give to help you get married: I go to ward prayer, break the fast, family home evening, linger longer, ward temple trips, and other things of that sort.
What more do you expect? That the bishop calls someone to marry you? Getting married is hard work. For that matter, BEING married is hard work. If you don't want to put any of your own effort into finding a wife, then I can't imagine that you'd be able to keep one.
Okay. Passive help then. But no active help.
If that's your view, it sounds like the church is putting just as much effort into this as you are.
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Ok this post was edited becuse I realized that some people may have misunderstood what I meant.
I can't offer stability or security (at least financially? what else would you mean?), and I don't know what you mean by connection.
As far as stability and security I also meant a safe and comfortable home environment. A girl has to know you wont hurt them or demean them when youve had a bad day. They need to know that you arent negative, and can be supportive even when life is crappy. . Not that you do any of these things, and I really want to emphasise that I dont think you do.
But one of the purposes of dating is to get an idea about what a person is like for good or for bad.
So yeah you can offer stability and security, and I bet with some dedication you could even handle finances.
Financial security is not something to snear at. If you think datings expensive, try hospital visits, diapers, food for two (or more) every day not to mention assumed debt. I stopped dating a girl when I realized her school debt was over 18,000 dollars and she wasn't doing anything to pay them back and not saving any money at all. Of course this person had been out of school for almost 6 years and repeatedly squandered money on things she didnt need and couldnt afford. Things got really bad when she crashed her truck, and went thorugh a whole saga to get alternate transportation that ended up putting her in a larger amount of debt with a vehicle that could barely roll. She was chronically late to work and got fired from two jobs she needed badly.
Mainly what ticked me off was that she refused to take 1 test to get a 15 dollar an hour raise which would have handled her payments for her loan and stabilized her debt. Even after she borrowed two hundred dollars from me to do it. She used that money to buy craft stuff for herself.
That says a lot about a person, and while I many not be wealthy in my life, Im sure as heck not going to be in debt.
Like we said though dating doesn't have to be expensive. There are free concerts, parks, shows, fairs and other things you could do to have a great time. My wife and I worked at a volunteer theater company painting sets as a date plenty of times.
I bet there are poetry readings, amateur open- mic nights and comedy shows too. Try to Cook at home instead of eating out. Save cash for a once a month big date, and dont buy a lot of gifts nic-nacks and brikabracks. Have friends over and watch a movie or have a small party.
Almost forgot as far as the word connection go's I mean sex appeal. ...not by itself because its more of a combination of sex appeal, comfort and a good rapport. Women have to be attracted to you and have to feel they can be themselves around you. Above all they have to have fun with you. And thats on top of the intelletual stimulation and spiritiual bond you have.
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This is beginning to disgust me, so I'm bowing out before I insult anyone in a way I will later regret. Please feel free to IM me if you want my opinion on anything, or if you just want someone to rant to, Peter.
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If you own one of these your aren't a safe and secure candidate for marriage.
http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v97/maddrjeffe/jeff/sqeagleWP.jpg
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I put effort into it while I was in college, since it appears to be all right to try to get married then even though you don't have a job. (Though I did have a job on campus that paid the bills, and never got any student loans.) Since then though I didn't have a job and thus didn't feel comfortable putting effort into it, especially with a certain person's "start earning $40,000 a year within 2 years" expectation from my prior experience. Now at last I HAVE a job so I consider myself on the market again, though there's no way I'll get $40,000 a year anytime soon.
I already said what I would prefer: a church-run mandatory database. What do I expect? I expect them to shut up about it if they can't offer anything active. If they want to know if I'm taking advantage of what they offer, they should ask if I'm going to the activities (I am) and leave it at that. They should realize things happen through divine intervention and lay off.
The type of arranged marriages I'm talking about are not forced marriages. You're basically set up by your parents but it's up to you to decide if you get along.
As long as you're using the missionary thing, remember that member referrals are some large number (I'll say 9) times more likely to result in success than knocking on doors. The church has realized this and talks about it quite often. If marring the single people off is so important to them, then they should implement something similar for that. And yes, I have told people before I'd be happy to be set up on dates, and no one ever has.
Unless I remember incorrectly the only thing I asked for advice on in this thread was whether I should start a website about this.
It's NOT something that's on my mind all the time or that I stress much about. This rant thread was brought on specifically by people's "dating is a commandment" comments at church this week.
And Jeff I never insulted you; my sarcastic comments were right in line with your "Once upon a time they had singles wards too and that proved to be a bad thing."
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(There was a story in the Mormon SF anthology Washed by a Wave of Wind that explored the church setting up three-month "for time" tryout temple sealings. Am I the only one who thought that would actually be an idea worth taking seriously?)
Looks like someone has been reading up on the Celts recently. That was a religious practice of theirs. If the couple still wanted to be married at the end of the season (at the next Solstice i guess) then they could make it binding. Otherwise, anullment was happy.
Funny people, the celts.
And I would just like to share an amusing thought i had, years ago:
'The guide to geeks getting girlfriends. A 2 step guide.
1) Become Homosexual.
2) Find another geek who has also completed task 1.'
:P
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if it's the geek's guide to getting "girlfriends" then wouldnt you need to be a girl
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This is a most interesting debate. I have enjoyed reading it.
Given I am neither LDS, nor have I ever had a date, I have nothing to add.
Yes, I realise this is a "Good Post" post, and they went out of fashion years ago. I don't care.
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uhm... well, aside from the whole, "You don't need to DATE to meet people" (you can do anything where you interact to learn about a person) and "Not ever activity is a date" (you can do something and invite someone just because they might be interested in the activity, so not every single "want to go do this" does or should constitute an interest in potential marriage, and the apparently not so obvious fact that not everyone (not even everyone worth marrying) has the emotional security to say that they're interested right away even when they are... I only have one thing to say
(ok, actually I'm also going to over look the whole bit about whether you asked for advice, because there WERE invitations to married people to propose better systems)
but my one thing:
Have you considered telling the people who ask you those questions that you find them (the questions) very distasteful and would appreciate not being asked again? It seems like that would be so much more productive than coming up with a system that will scare people off and they won't understand and then ranting about it to those who are uninvolved.
Just a thought. You want everyone to be clear on the communication, and you aren't doing the single most effective and easy step to clear what you claim is the biggest bother to you. Just tell the questioner that it isn't any of their business. Be very clear but polite that you would like them never to ask that of you again.