Timewaster's Guide Archive
General => Rants and Stuff => Topic started by: 42 on January 02, 2004, 12:30:01 AM
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So, I've left my therapists for the time being. My therapist tended to keep me more stable. Or at least less suicidal. For those of you who don't know already, I have severe depression and anxiety with a few other stuff as a result of a nervous breakdown I had almost a year and a half ago.
So this thread is mainly for me to work out my issues, but everyone else is allowed to voice their issues here as well. However be warned, mental therapy is usually really hard and is often rather painful. Also, no mocking or other acts of cruelty toward people and their struggles will be allowed. If I can't erase your message, I will give you a warning. If you ignore the warning I have a wonderful friend who is a disability officer who will have no qualms with filing a misdemeaner charge against you. And since it will be in writing you will have a very slim chance of defending yourself. Also, the penalties can be fairly large even if you live in another state or country under the Americans with Disabilities Act.
So if you are ignorant or fearful of the mentally ill. Please go away.
So my first issue: gracioucly accepting something kind from someone. This ussually isn't a problem when it's expected, but when it unexpected I have a hard time with it. I think a large part of it has to do in that I inherently see myself as a damaged person. So unexpected help feels like I'm a charity case or I'm incapable of something. Obviously that is kind of a bogus idea, because it's not like I'm competing with everyone. Also, I do lots of spontaneously nice acts to people. It's just to show that I care, not because I think of them as inferior. Yet, I have a difficult time accepting that others could possibly want to care for me. I am damaged goods after all.
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Ahhh, this old house. Yeah, I've downed the same line round in here some times. Except I'm more open about the stuff. I like to tell people things. I also like tall green-eyed red-heads.
Most in partly, I don't understand how help can be unexpected. When walking through a door, its sometimes unexpected to have someone hold it open. More oft than not, I see help as being expected and then let go of and not helped at all. And being incapable of something, or feeling like it, is just a raw human emotion, no? I have no knowledge of pshycology (as can be seen by how I spell it), so I'm not Mr. Knowledge. Plus, is it not silly that you yourself do these "unexpected help's" and don't realize that maybe that person didn't want that? Such as you. I don't know, bushes were meant for beating, so I'll go round some up and do so.
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I know there are some people who have a hard time when I do something sontaneously nice for them. EUOL and Spriggan are good examples. Both of them kind of squirm if I unexpectantly do something nice to them. If I'm lucky then I get a good thank you. However, most of the time they just stare in shock. Occassionally, they get grumpy about it and say something to discourage me from doing something nice to them again.
I know EUOL fiercely wants to be independent, which is admiral. However, no man is an island. My therapists have told me that it's better to be codependent with others rather than independent or dependent. Course, it's a lot easier to be independent or dependent than codependent because being codependent requires trust in both yourself and others.
I think I have a fear of myself in that I might dissapoint the person who is helping me. I speculate that Sprig and EOUL are more afraid that being helped might cost them they're independence.
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Independently I'm saying your weird, but codependently I'm joking.
I think its rather silly to think someone can be dissapointed in you if they're helping you. The way that could happen is if they give you a sour look after they do so. Or if you're a complete jerk to them.
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Yes, it is irrational. So how did I get to that point?
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what point?
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Gemm, his point is not that his behavior is justified. He agrees with you that the behavior is irrational. So... how does he behave more rationally and accept kindness graciously.
i don't have a lot of help or advice, because I'm not that good at it. But I would start with just training yourself to say "thank you" even if you don't mean it. Just make it a habit, it'll be easier to do more after that, I'd think.
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All right. I know I'm going to regret this (Sprig and Tage, stop snickering.)
I'm not certain your analysis is accurate. I don't think it's unnatural for a male in our society to feel odd receiving an unexpected gift. You aren't 'damaged' because you are uncomfortable receiving gifts. We are acculturated to see gifts as something exchanged, and generally--between males--something done only in expected situations.
For instance, for me to bring home a random CD for one of my roommates would be odd. For me to offer to buy dinner when we're out to eat would not be. I think many males would see things this way. The mores of our society give men a gruff exterior, and while we're allowed to be generous, we usually don't buy 'gifts' for one another or do random acts of kindness for each other. As a society, we unconsciously see it a man's duty to protect and provide for women and children. If we transfer these duties to other men, it seems like a waste of effort.
EUOL and Spriggan are good examples. Both of them kind of squirm if I unexpectantly do something nice to them
I'm not certain if 'squirm' is the most appropriate term here. In fact, you have always been very fond of using marked linguistic terms in order to slant the language of your text. Regardless, again, I don't think this reaction is odd. I wish you could provide specific examples. However, I do think that many men would find it strange if your randomly did something unordinary kind for them--such as cleaning their room. Good or bad, it's simply a matter of our societal stereotype.
I think I have a fear of myself in that I might disappoint the person who is helping me. I speculate that Sprig and EOUL are more afraid that being helped might cost them they're independence.
Again, your choice of marked terms is undesirable. However, yes, you could say I'm 'afraid' of losing my independence--in the same way I'm 'afraid' of eating fish, since I don't like the taste. I enjoy doing things for myself. Overcoming challenges on my own makes my life more interesting, and gives me a greater thrill when I accomplish them.
Once again, I don't think that I am deviant in this behavior. Culturally, we value independence in our men, and we are socialized to act this way. Your fear of letting the person down also seems natural and normal. When someone gives us a gift we don't want, we generally try to use it anyway, so that they will gain satisfaction from thinking that we enjoyed their gift. We don't want people to feel bad for giving us the wrong gift.
Now, as for your own spontaneous acts of kindness, I think that you might want to consider the society in which we live, and think about how people are going to respond to your gifts/actions. Tell me--if you know doing a particular act will make someone uncomfortable, yet you insist on doing it anyway, are you really doing it out of 'kindness?' Or are you simply doing it because you want appease your own sensibilities, convincing yourself that you are indeed a nice person?
I am not trying to be offensive in any way. You wanted a therapy thread, so I am going to try and be as honest as I can. I often feel a lack of sincerity on your part, 42--now, I'm not saying that you are insincere. In fact, I think you are very sincere. However, you definitely *come off* the wrong way a lot of the time. I think this might be because of your critical nature--though you see yourself as a very kind person, others do not see you this way because you constantly put them down. It doesn't matter how many nice things you do for people--if you're telling them that they're fat, useless, and stupid while you're serving them, they aren't going to care how nice your actions are. You are very good about talking people up when they aren't around, but when you speak to them in person, you are generally negative and quick to point out their flaws.
An example of this can be found on this very thread. I assume you started it so that you could talk to your friends about important issues. However, you immediately began the thread with a very offensive threat about filing charges against them. Then, in your next post, you proceeded to begin explaining why Sprig and I are emotionally damaged. The negativity was so oppressive here that I left, never intending to look at it again. However, I'm always up for a good discussion, and I have learned to sense the sincerity behind your offensive language, so I came back anyway.
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hmmm,
are you religious?
One way to feel ok about kindness from strangers is to be kind and give yourself.
Do you tithe? Do you volunteer?
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If your therapist used cognitive therapy with you at all, you'll know that the most useful way you can change your feelings is self-talk. When you find yourself using negative ideas like that, talk yourself out of it. Tell yourself, "No, that's a false idea. I know that's wrong. I need to allow myself to _________ (or I need to stop _______ line of thinking and think ____(something positive) instead." It applies not only to giving and receiving gifts, but also to negative thoughts of any kind.
The most important thing about this self-talk, however, is that you replace the negative thought. When you tell yourself, "Don't think about purple elephants. Don't think about purple elephants," you're probably picturing purple elephants because you're thinking a negative. Instead, you want to replace this thought: "That isn't a right thought. Those elephants are PINK, PINK, PINK." It's visualization and changing the pathways of your thoughts. Often (and I know I have this problem quite a bit) we believe our negative thoughts because that's the side we tend to listen to. (If that makes any sense.) If we change the flow of the noise in our head, we can often help change the flow of our beliefs.
It works for me (though I must say it's taken years to get to this point, and I'm still working at it). I'm not saying it's easy, and sometimes it feels false--but why are our negative thoughts any more the "truth" than the things we know to be true and positive, or at least the possibility of positive things? Sometimes I just assumed the most negative possibility because I felt like "damaged goods," as you say, that it couldn't be possible that anyone could really do something for or say something to or care about me without some kind of hidden, negative ideas about me. THAT kind of thinking is plain false, and you know who wants you to believe them. Some of us are more susceptible to such self-lies than others and must work against them--and I'd venture, most of us work against them all the time and just have better skills.
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Instead, you want to replace this thought: "That isn't a right thought. Those elephants are PINK, PINK, PINK."
Because seeing Pink Elephants is EXACTLY what 42 needs to do.
Actually, it's been my opinion for a long time that what every therapy needs to include is for the patient to realize that he is not damaged because he has problems. THere isn't a person on the planet who is 100% "normal" in all his psychological processes. Note, this is VERY different from simply saying that the problem is not a problem at all. This is simply acknowledging that while you have a problem, so does everyone. And you are not "damaged" or a bad person because you have one, even a very significant one. The only counselor I felt I made a lot of progress with talked about this sort of thing with me, and it's done amazing things for my self image and functionality.
(gee, are we all in need of therapy here?)
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Aw, you know it was an analogy. :P
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yes, but if you can't poke fun at metaphors, what CAN you poke fun at?
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An overcrowded train track.
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I'd help, but it will cost you $10 per paragraph.
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$10 a paragraph is cheap. My psychiatrist charges $65 every 10 minutes.
So I have much to respond to. I hope to address everything later.
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I use self- talk to good effect also. For example, when someone compliments me I often am uncomfortable accepting it, but I think about when I compliment others and what my motivations are, and it's then easy for me to ascribe the same motivations to others, and I feel good about it all.
I think the root problem is the whole "damaged goods" issue.
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Yes the damaged goods issue is more of the root of the issue. I am fully aware that I hate myself. Self-loathing is kind of a universal aspect of depression, unless you are one of those rare individuals who has depression and likes yourself too much. Those kind of people tend to become serial killers. Again though, for the 11% of the US that suffers from severe depression it is usually from self-loathing.
So Stacer and SE have a good point about cognitive therapy. It does work. Course I had a very good therapist point out to me while I was hospitalized that I've become addicted to my self-loathing thinking.
Now addiction is interesting, because before you have the addiction you have a choice about it. But once you become addicted then your right to choose is lost. For example, people with eating disorders almost never develope anerexia or bulimia because they think they are fat. So telling an anarexic that they aren't fat and they just need to choose to eat more is really useless. Usually the issue with eating disorders is having control. Anerexics who start to have control in other aspects of there life generally loosen the amount of control they place on their eating. Course, I'm always amazed about how much self-control people with eating disorders have. They are definitely strong people. In this case, it's insane and harmful, but impressive in a creepy kind of way.
So after the discussion on addiction, I kind of realized that I'm addicted to hating myself. I think it gives me a measure of control. I'm also addicted to cutting, which is why Sprig and Prometheus keep all the knives and other sharp implements locked up in our apartment. So does this addiction thing make sense?
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when my therapist talked to me about addiction he also talked about acceptance. You have to start off by accepting that you're going to fall into it at least occassionally, or else the guilt consumes you, and feeling guilty is not a helpful way to break out of damaging behavior. Of course, if you're addicted to self loathing, feeling guilty only fuels it that much more. You're essentially addicted to not being able to not breaking out of addiction. That's kind of crappy (to use a technical term). But even being caught in addiction where you have little control doesn't make you damaged.
Also keep in mind that ultimately you do have control over your destiny. Addiction does not remove 100% of your agency even regarding the addiction. The problem is balancing this idea with the acceptance that because no one is perfectly in control, and you have strong urges toward that addiction, you ARE going to fail to resist it in every case.
Do you have any idea of what begins your addiction cycles? I know that's a difficult question, and having been in therapy, you may have even explored it extensively. I for one am not positive about what inspires my own cycles. But knowing that can be a big start.
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Bang zing! thats the same thing my couples counselor said about addiction!
Im sure stress is a factor, and maybe Christmas or holidays. Do you keep a journal? When do you most often feel your self loathing?
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First of all, I hate catching up on message boards after a vacation.
Second of all, I'm actually very well-balanced as humans go. Most of the mental trouble I have are just part of being female. So can I use this thread to try and figure out my husband's emotional problems?
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How very interesting, considering your sig quote 42, as I will soon reveal.
I really don't know if I actually have any psychological problems. Sometimes I think I do, sometimes I just think I'm paranoid. (Isn't that a psychological problem in itself?) I've never seen a professioanl type person, so don't ask me about that.
What I do know is that about four years ago, i was 14 years old and in year eight, and it was the worst time in my life. At this time, I was at a school where I believed that everyone in the place actively hated me and would prefer me dead. I did ahve friedns of a sort, but that didn't stop Wednesday from becoming (in their terms) "Beat-up-Jason day". What I do know is what it's like to be feel completely broken down and powerless, to need to vent anger in some way, and to end up writing a hit list in clas (Completely meaningless, of course. Even if I was strong enough I couldn't even punch someone with any force for fear I might hurt them.) I know what it is like to then be taken away to the year coordinator and laughed at.
So I had a pretty bad year, I figure beign on a gaming site, we're all nerds who had a crappy high school experience. My next school was much better, and I spent the next few years putting myself back together. What I mean by this, is that at my new school I discovered peoplewho were not in my close group of friends, yet didn't hate me. In fact, it was the opposite, people who actively liked me, and would prefer me to exist. I had trouble understanding this concept.
So do I have psychologicol problems? Myabe, maybe not, but I do know the feeling of being "Damaged goods". Your sig quote is something I repeat to myself frequently, seeing as I tend to lapse into "I hate the world" moods, and in reality, that itself is the only weakness.
So to summerise, I think what I'm trying to say is that if I am at all representative of those I consider my people, then there is an army of nerds ready to support you.
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So I've been meaning to get to this thread again. I got caught up in withdrawal symptoms after I forgot to refill one of my meds before the weekend. Consequently, the glare from my computer moniter was making me naseous and giving me one monstrous headache. But my serotonin levels are starting to balance out some so I have returned to my computer.
As to where my self-loathing originated, well that's complicated. I have wonderful, very caring family. My parents and siblings are very giving individuals. Hence my family promotes helping others a lot more than helping one's self. I think that kind of gets twisted into helping others and negecting one's own needs.
Also, I come from a large family (so I'm told) and I have an identical twin as many of you know. This kind of leads to having some serious identity issues. My therapist have pointed out that I kind of have a small mimic personality. That is I tend to mimic the personality of what I feel is expected by the group or individual I'm with at the time. For example, i can be very snobbish and elitist when I'm with a group of artist. Course, then I'm veryu caring, concerned and responsible at Church. I get negative and depressed when I'm with a bunch of negative, depressed people.
I guess everyone does this to some extent, I just don't have much on my own. I met a bi-polar person in the hospital who was a much more exteme example of this mimc personality. His personality changed with whomever he was talking to at the moment. It was very interesting to watch as he would adopt the personality of whoever he was interacting with at the time, including mannerisms and voice inflection. He would make a great actor if he wasn't so screwed-up.
However, I'm trying to pool together common threads from how I act with different people and groups to figure out what is me. My biggest progress so far has been not to use the royal "we" when conversing with people.
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Since I dont know you I dont know if that last bit was an attempt at humor, or the gods honest truth. I dont think I've ever met anyone who used the Royal we and not been joking
I think everyone adjusts their personality to fit the group they are in.
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Jeff, I kind of know what you mean. My dad said I am a middle floater. I tend to do the average of what people around me are doing. This is the reason he worked with the school officers to make sure that I got into honors classes even though I didn't have stellar performance in the other classes, because he knew I'd do better around more studious students.
Sometimes it is hard to tell who I really am and differentiate that from when I am "playing a part". What helps me is to get an idea of what I really enjoy. I have to differentiate that from "fixes" from when I submit to my controlling behavior. I can tell if I really enjoy it by how long I can keep doing it. If it's like crochet or watching movies I can do it for a very long time before I get tired of it. Even then it doesn't take very long before I'm ready to start another blanket or watch another movie. Then I try to expand that. I learned a little about critising movies in college and I try to apply that when I watch them. That way I can appreciate good movies for more reasons than "it was cool". I try to learn new crochet patterns, etc. This is in contrast to when I've found someone who will let me boss them around, or a group I can lead. Eventually I feel guilty for being so controlling, and I'm not really all that great at leading.
Maybe you've thought of this, and maybe it will help. My mom told me something that's always helped my self-image. Look at another person and try to find good things about them rather than bad. This gets you into the habit of looking for the good and helps you to see the good in yourself. I also found that I was less apt to assume that the people around me were thinking bad things about me--because I was no longer thinking bad things about them.
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Oh, one other thing, and maybe you've already tried this as well. Apparently BYU has Counselling Services available. My roommate started seeing them after she started to have thoughts of suicide. They really helped her.
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Thanks for your remarks. They are helpful.
Yes I know about BYU counseling services. I've been working with them for the past year and a half. There are about seven or eight couselors that I worked with regularly. Unfortunately, I'm not taking any courses at the moment so I can't use their services, though I do keep in touch with a few of them. I highly recommend BYU students taking advantage of the Counseling center. It's free for BYU students and the going rate for for most therapist is around a $100 per hour.
And therapy is a hundred times better than medication, though it is also a hundred times more painful overall. Therapist don't just tell you how nice or wonderful you are. More often than not that push you to deal with your problems and fear. When I first started attending therapy it would take me a week or so to recover from an hour session. And that was individual therapy which is not as difficult as group therapy for most people. But, nothing worth having comes that easily.
On a side note, I setting a goal to reduce my medication to normal dosages sometime this summer. I'm tired of, and broke from taking double, triple, and quadruple dosages.
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yeah, there's some really good counselors there too. I thought that group therapy was going to kill me before I did it. Now I'm not sure why I even though individual would do me any good. Group was very cool and helpful.
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There all a lot of good counselors, but there are a couple I don't get along with. That was something that was good for me to recognize that not all clinical counselors are right for me, though I'm sure they are great for some other people.
So next topic. Why do I find sleep to be so difficult. I haven't had non-drug indused sleep in over a year and a half. Every night going to sleep has become a major battle for me. I hate it. I think I tend to feel guilty about sleeping. As though taking time to sleep was a bad thing. Has anyone else ever felt this way?
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I have trouble sleeping too. Not nearly that much trouble
But I'm ALWAYS tired no matter what pattern of sleep I try to establish and what I eat. And it usually takes hours to fall asleep. It may have some unconscious thinking about how much else you could get done, but I dont' sense it myself. I just want to sleep
of course, once I AM asleep, I can easily stay there.
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I know just what you mean, 42, though not to that extent. I feel as if I should be doing something, and that sleep is a terrible waste of time. Not that I ever accomplish anything after a certain hour. Like, now. So I've been making myself remove all stimuli at a set bedtime, and I lay down and breathe deeply, daydream, listen to quiet music, etc. Now, I've only been doing this now that the semester is over. But I was reading this article in a psychology magazine that lack of sleep is a major precursor to a depressive episode. It's correlational, not causational--they don't know which causes which--but I do know that when I let my worries overwhelm me, I don't concentrate on the ultimate of stress relief, just allowing myself 8 full hours of unconsciousness.
They also say that when you REM sleep, you work out that day's worries and put them in a nice psychological box, which helps your mental health.
Do you do relaxation techniques--deep breathing, clearing your mind, listening to relaxing music, anything that makes you feel relaxed and pampered? (I supposed "pampered" wouldn't be the right word, since you're a guy, but you get the idea.)
I know that exercise helps me, too. When I get some sort of rigorous physical activity during the day, I wear out my muscles, to match my mind. It seems sometimes, when I don't do this, my body gets restless right when my mind is about to conk out. So unless I burn that energy off earlier, I throw off my body rhythms.
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I don't sleep well, even with my drugs whitch I'm currently taking at six times the recommended dosage. I get lots of nightmares that wake me up. I should probably start a dream journal or something. I'm just kind of out of reality when I wake up.
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We should both keep dream journals 42. Then we could compare notes and both feel better about how much WEIRDER the other person's are.
I'm serious.
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I was reading this article in a psychology magazine that lack of sleep is a major precursor to a depressive episode. It's correlational
See, that's weird. When I stay up (ie, not even try to sleep) VERY late it's for one of two reasons. I'm dorking around (which may result in/be caused by depression), or I'm being very very productive. Either of these will be for several days straight, so that amounts to a lot of missed sleep in a week.
Part of my problem is that with my ADD, I end up wasting a LOT of time in my life, and then i feel angry or depressed that I didn't get more done when I have so many personal projects that I'm genuinely interested in and want to do. So ANY time I've spent doing something I believe is worthwhile, even if it's just chatting with someone I haven't seen for a long time or who needs company, I feel really good about. Often, due to my family situation, the only time I have to be really productive is very late at night. So I don't feel bad about those sessions at all. My depression never causes productivity, and being productive never makes me depressed.
So sometimes, yeah, my lack of sleep could be an indication or cause of depression, but not always.
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From my secondhand experience with depression the problem seems to be horrifyingly cyclical - Depression makes it hard to sleep and the lack of sleep intensifys the depression. In addition depression medication seems to sometimes have the side effect of making you tired but unable to sleep.
Something that makes me VERY glad I don't suffer from depression.
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Yes, depression has a whole lot of holes, snadtraps, quagmires, quandries, and other metephors that just leave you stuck. The key to a lot of treatment is to find something that will ease things enough to help the sufferer find a way out. Course, most people with severe depression have multiple traps.
When I was last in the hospital the Psycologists and Psychiatrist had all of the patients take a test to determine their "life traps." They had 16 listed life-traps. I scored high on Self-Sacrifice, Deprivation, Failure to Achieve, and Unrelenting Standards. I scored moderately in Abandonment, Social Isolation, Vulnerability, and Defectiveness. The other life traps they had listed were Mistrust, Social Undesirability, Dependence/Incompotence, Emmeshment/Underdeveloped Self, Subjugation, Emotional Inhibition, Entitlement, and Self-control/Self-Discipline.
It's all very interesting, though I've always wondered why psychological terms sound so cheesy. I don't like how the life trap theory places such an emphasis on how your childhood and junk like that. I do like how it can help people focus on specific area of depression that are more likely to pertain to their problems than just being treated for general depression. The nurses and techs also had to take the life-trap as part of the Behavioral Care Units policy.
In one of the many group sessions I attended, the therapist picked on a BYU Nursing Intern about here "life trap" issues. It was lots of fun to watch her squirn for a few minutes before the therapist moved on. The therapist wsa mostly just trying to point out that even people who aren't on medication have their own problems.
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mostly just trying to point out that even people who aren't on medication have their own problems.
Which I think is important to remember.
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So, you've listed a lot of your shortcomings, which one are you focused on improving?
Me, I'm trying to be more polite, despite my opinionated personality. I'm also trying not to get into the bad habit of nagging my husband. There is, afterall, a big difference between encouragement, kicking-in-the-butt and nagging.
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I don't sleep well, even with my drugs whitch I'm currently taking at six times the recommended dosage.
Careful, 42. I'm sure you've thought about where this can lead. Just be careful.
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That's something I've been trying to work on myself, MoD--focusing on the positive, controlling what I can control (my own behavior) and letting go what I can't control (anything to do with people or situations outside myself).
This week has been one of renewal for me, actually. My last semester really threw askew pretty much everything in my life--physical health, emotional, spiritual, etc. So this week I've been focusing on going to bed earlier, getting up earlier, exercising before work, reading my scriptures in the morning. I also started the week with what I consider a true Sabbath--I had been getting lazy and when I'd come home from church, sit on the couch and turn on the TV. I decided to leave it off and spend the afternoon reading scriptures, writing in my journal, working on family history, etc. And then I was invited to a baptism that evening, which made it an even better Sabbath. It's been a really great reminder to me of how much of a difference inviting the Spirit in every single day makes to not only my spiritual well-being, but also my emotional well-being.
There's a wrench in this works which you all might have some thoughts on. So we have Institute class tonight, a January Tues-Thurs class. I can't go on Tuesdays because of tutoring, but on Thursdays I do want to go. I like going to Institute but it's rarely at the top of my list because of other things I'd like to spend my energy on, but I want to go to this. I had gone to a couple at the beginning of last semester but quickly dropped them because of all I had to do.
So this morning my roommate accused me of insincerity in wanting to go to Institute, because she says I'm only going because there's a guy there that I like. A nice fringe benefit, sure, but not the reason I'm going. I am wearing makeup today for that reason, sure, and maybe I'm wearing a nicer sweater than I might have if I wasn't going to see him there, but the root of the reason I'm going is because I really do want to reorganize my life so I'm concentrating on the things that are most important to me.
Should I have just showed up in ratty jeans (despite it being that I'm wearing the nice outfit to work as well, trying to be more professional at work now that I'm not just a grad student making a few extra dollars, but someone that wants a full-time job here)?
I'm annoyed and hurt that she would accuse me of being that shallow, when I'm honestly trying to do something about bringing a discipline back in my life that I've been missing. It so happens that this guy, a close friend of mine, is quite a disciplined person and a good example, but I think I'm mature enough of a person to be able to distinguish between my own personal goals and romance, and to be able to have them coexist. Does this make sense?
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What your roommate should be worried about is why she cares why YOU'RE going to institute. Not to speculate, but is it because HER reasons aren't so great?
Anyway, I don't see why interest in a guy is such a bad reason anyway. The whole marriage encouragement thing. If you're being spiritually fed and get some guy's attention while at it, why should anyone question you? That doesn't make sense.
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I think so. What you are saying is
God = reason to go to Institute
Cute boy = reason to wear makeup to institute
That makes perfect sense to me. I think your roommate might be taking herself to seriously, and you too. I suggest that you stick your tongue out at her and say "God works in mysterious ways." I don't think you will be able to convince her other than what she's decided, but if you prefer the serious approach, you might point out that it's not a sin to do a good thing without pure intentions. Your intentions are good, you want to get back into the habit of going to Institute, and you would go, even if you didn't have this boy's good example to follow.
I prefer the joking approach, personally.
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i'm gonna stick my neck out here and say that the cute guy thing is part of WHY singles are encouraged to go to Institute. Maybe not hte primary reason. but A reason
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I agree with Saint. The church wants to provide places for youth in the church to get to meet each other, making it easier to marry in the church. I think it very considerate of them, to back up their own recommendations like that.
Personally, I never was a big fan of dances, so that wasn't the place I wanted to go to meet people. Institute is something I enjoy, so it's more likely I'll meet people there that enjoy some of the same things I do.
Or was . . . since I'm not really looking anymore.
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Yeah, not everyone can meet their future spouse at a crappy seasonal job.
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or marry the girl they took to Sr. Prom...
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The same boy that took me to his senior prom took me to mine three years later. We're still friends to this day, twelve years after we broke up (we dated a total of 4 years, almost to the day), but I'm really glad I didn't marry him. I didn't know who I was back then, and we've turned out to be very different people. Plus, he was not LDS, which was the biggest thing. But he's still very much a small town guy--even though he left our hometown, went to college, is an engineer, he's never lived outside Illinois.
Even though I mourn the loss of that lifestyle, and how it's put me in big city after big city, I know that I'm happy where I am and he's happy where he is. I always say I chose the wrong profession, because it didn't allow me to choose a lifestyle like his, but when I look around at all that I love to do in my life, I know that's lying to myself in a way. I've become a City Girl! Augh! :-[
On the other hand, my sister married the boy who took her to her senior prom (she started dating him the same spring I started dating Tim), and they've been married 9 years and have a 3 year old. But the cost to her was her faith; he's Methodist.
I envy that high-school sweetheart thing, but for me personally, despite the frustrations of being single in a family-oriented church, I'm having a blast with the life I've been given.
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I didn't go to my senior prom; but after I got married I had a dream that my husband took my to my senior prom, and it was a very nice cathartic kind of dream that actually fits in very well with a thread about therapy.
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Yeah, I didn't go either. Of course, I was more closed off from women back in my high school days.
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What's this 'prom' thing you speak of?
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this can go in a therapy thread:
I married the girl I took to prom, but not hte girl I intended to take to Prom. (Naturally, given hindsight, I'm very happy with how it worked out). Kirsti went to a different high school, and i asked her to HER Prom, and I would then take another girl to MY prom. THen I find out they were on the same night. Then I find out that my best friend, who I'm doubling with, has asked the girl I wanted to take to prom. Yeah, that was a fun night.
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So I agree that you can't go through life all on your own. However, it seems like every woman therapist and/or woman in general seems to think that the solution to all my problems is to find the right girl and get married. Why is that?
Sure, there are many emotional benefits of being happily married, but I doubt it is the cure for all woes as so many women make it out to be. Okay that's just a little rant on my part.
One of the good things about having depression and going through therapy is it has made me realize that there are many people out their who would just not be right for me. I'm kind of partial to the damsel in distress type (what guy doesn't from time to time), but after therapy I've come to acknowledge that I really need more of the strong, supportive type. So when I start dating again (sometime after the Khitomer Accord) I have a better idea of what to look for.
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So I agree that you can't go through life all on your own. However, it seems like every woman therapist and/or woman in general seems to think that the solution to all my problems is to find the right girl and get married. Why is that?
!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok, no.
I don't think marriage solves any problems. It creates a whole new set of problems. It provides a wealth of opportunities. It brings a lot of joy. But I don't know of a single problem being married has solved. Except knowing you have a date (assuming common mood).
However, beign prepared to marry wisely and be committed to the relationship, that helps with a lot of problems. It shows a lot of maturity. It'll make you capable of dealing with problems. But that's preparing YOURSELF for something. The act of getting married or the state of being married won't solve anything.
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gotta say Saint that was a crappy prom, for you, Rob and me... and I went to three more after that one... by the way they get better.... :)
Hey you went with the best girl at the time even if Libby was hotter. Too bad we were to blind to see it then...
oh and the best thing I ever learned in life I learned at that prom...
the good thing about being in the gutter is that you cant be a speedbump.
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Nicely said, SE.
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heh, I'd forgotten I'd said that, Jeffe.
I don't know if I thought Libby was hotter. I was just mroe smitten, partially because she was less reachable and partially because I had more contact with her. Yeah, I'm glad for how it worked out. I think Libby would have killed me if I didn't just resent her eventually.
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but after therapy I've come to acknowledge that I really need more of the strong, supportive type. So when I start dating again (sometime after the Khitomer Accord) I have a better idea of what to look for.
The thing is, you both need to be the strong, supportive type in any marriage, I think, at some point. You can't be constantly saving her, and she can't be constantly mothering you--it has to be an equally yoked relationship, so to speak. So I agree with Saint--when you've prepared yourself, find someone who has prepared herself, too.
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that's the ideal, stacer, but I doubt it's the reality. Yes, you both have to support each other, but it's never done in equal amounts.
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you both have to support each other, but it's never done in equal amounts
I'm glad my wife and I are not keeping close track of who's supporting who and how much. It would seem too much like accounting.
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Nonono, that's not what I meant. I just meant that in a marriage, you each have down times, in which the other one is the strong one, and it fluctuates, and probably depends on each person's weaknesses and strengths. Not that you keep track of it or anything. And sometimes you're both weak, and sometimes you're both strong. And I do mean ideally, but aren't we all reaching for the ideal?
And this coming from the only single one besides 42 sounding off about this, but I'm hoping you understand what I mean. In my most functional friendships, this happens--if I'm having a trying time, my friends are there to support me, and vice versa. And when I'm having a great time, my friends are there to celebrate with me.
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well, let's reconcile both sides here.
No one's claiming that everyone is giving 110% all the time. But ideally you are able to give strength when the other needs it.
But it doesn't always work that way. finding a "perfect match" is nearly impossible, and often you'll both be down at the same time (it's different with friends when you have a pool of them, at least one can be having a good day at any given time) and probably one will be doing more supporting than the other.
Interestingly, Pres. Faust spoke about my original point in World Leadership Meeting this afternoon. He said marriage requires maturity and responsibility. This BEFORE you get married. He also pretty boldly said that marriage isn't for the husband or wife in the way 42 implies his therapists have said. They aren't to make you better or anything like that. They're for raising a family.
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Will they put that up somewhere on LDS.org or something? I'd be interested in reading it. And Saint, thanks for that--that's a good way to put it. Point well taken about friends.
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I would assume so. They're going to be distributing the text to the leaders. Unfortunately, I didn't write the exact quote down, although I did take notes.
One quote worth passing on (and this one is word for word): "Don't magnify the work to be done. Simplify it." - Elder Scott.
You know that one was cool because my mom and I started writing at the exact same time.
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That is a good quote.
Here's something interesting that kind of relates:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/01/10/life.stress.reut/index.html
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whats funny is that that should be a no brainer.
Its not like when you get married suddenly a little switch clicks on and all your problems go away, quite the contrary they get bigger. Some relationships work when one spouse leans on the other for all their emotional support...at least for a while untill after the 8000th time of dealing the same problems and not getting any support from the emotionally crippled side of the relationship. Then they freak and fight and possibly end up resenting the other person. Of couse they could just push that aside and store it deep down.. but (and im being very sarcastic) I dont know anyone who would do that...
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Well, you'd think it would be a no brainer, but there is a large aspect of our society that thinks there are solutions to emotional problems, and those solutions involve relationships. This is in our subconscious, and it's not silly or stupid to think it. I wouldn't call it a "no brainer" because of this.
Unless you're a therapist and it's your job to know better.
But let's complicate the issue. We've been talking about how there are new and bigger problems that come with marriage. But married people (statistically) tend to live longer and be more healthy. I believe studies show that married people on the whole suffer less from distress. So there IS soemthing that makes life easier if you're firmly committed to a marriage. Probably it has something to do with knowing there IS someone who care and values you and having something reliable in your life. Knowing that you're not alone and so forth.
Just dont' look at it as a quick fix to anything.
edit: just want to add to my thoughts on that last one. i'm not ruling out that it's the marriage relationship itself that causes the reduced stress and better health, but you also shouldn't say that the type of person capable and willing of entering into a committed marriage is what causes the benefits. I think that there's a combination of the two. Being that type of person and also being in the dependable relationship.
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Id like to know just what type of therapist told 42 that cause none of mine have ever advocated complicating my life just to make it better....
remember wider is better...
Seriously though my therepist told me to wait and really think about getting married.
So I did.
But I can see why a married person might live longer... its a persons way to get revenge agianst the one they love... Its a race :) The one who lives longest wins!
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See, in Utah there is a cultural attitude among the women here that marriage is the solution to many of lifes problems. Course, many women in Utah will deny that if you ask them, but their actions speak louder. And it has been the women therapist that think I need to get married. Utahns are also marriage happy as a whole. For example, a standard joke is that those attending BYU in Provo receive a tuition refund if they graduate unmarried.
There is also kind of an attitude that people who can't get married before 25 are somehow defective. There is some sympathy for women who can't get married, but very little for men.
So as I've been looking through some of my therapy notes I found a quote from one of my therapist that I'm still trying to figure out.
We are not our behavior.
It's short, but confusing. I think my therapist was implying that people are made of many factors besides just behavior or performance. Any other ideas?
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There is also kind of an attitude that people who can't get married before 25 are somehow defective. There is some sympathy for women who can't get married, but very little for men.
Yes, so very true. Although women being women, there is a lot of surface sympathy for single women over 25, there is also the smugness and hidden spite that women are so good at. "I'm married and you're not, so I must be better than you."
To men: "You're not married? You're not trying. If you were doing things right you'd be married.
To women: "You're not married? Oh dear, there must be something wrong with you that make men not want you. What about that nice fellow you were dating 6 months ago? What? He was an alcoholic? Well you should have snatched him up and changed his ways.
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see, I don't think that behavior is a Utah behavior. I think it's embedded in western culture. 'course, Utah magnifies it....
anyway, let's talk about not being our behavior. I think you have desires and impulses. sometimes physical conditions influence your behavior. You do things you hadn't necessarily planned on or wanted to do. What that statement means is that when these times occurs, and you do something you don't like, it doesn't mean that the behavior defines you.
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Boy, the more you guys talk about Utah, the more intrigueing it sounds. No wonder Fallout 3 was going to be set there
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Heh. It's an amusing place. Imagine a world where everyone generally comes from a fundamentalist Christian background, and who are all trying to prove that they can be as mainstream and normal as the rest of the world while holding fast to their traditional values.
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plus, (and apparently this was a big deal in my MTC district), they count the number of antler points on deer differently than the Eastern US.
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Sounds like the sort of place a horror movie gets set.
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Well, yes.
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Other metro areas with less stress included Orange County, California, Nassau-Suffolk in New York, and Minneapolis-St. Paul, Minnesota.
*sob* I want to go home!!
Unhappy single make unhappy married. And I think that has something to do with our personal development. The guy I wanted to marry in high school would be so wrong for me, I'm glad I waited until I was ready.
My dad says that DIDs are fun to date because they make you feel important--you can solve their problems and help them, but when you marry them it's gets really exhausting, because you can't get away from it. Every morning you wake up to every night when you go to sleep, you are expect to be solving that persons problem. And on top of that the DIDs resent you for bossing them around all the time.
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Which reminds me, you STILL have my name spelled wrong in your signature.
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That's weird. Sorry.
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ok, i'm glad this thread is here, because it makes me a little more comfortable bringing it up.
I'm swinging depressive. It sucks. I feel trapped and powerless, unable to do things. What's worse, I feel guilty (yeah, we've been over that ground already, I know) because objectively I don't have any good reason to feel these ways.
Anyway. bleh. Don't know what else to say. Don't know what brings on my swings, but there you go.
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Um does that mean that your having a mood swing?
Are you ok?
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That happens to me too from time to time. Sometimes I just have to retreat into something, like a book or a movie, or just feel sorry for myself and cry for no reason. Then, weirdly enough, I often feel better after that. Even though I try to focus on the positive, to help myself feel better in general, I just have to allow myself to feel sad from time to time. If you tend toward depression (like I do, as well), lots of times people say "all you have to do is pretend to be happy and then you'll eventually be happy." I know that changing your thoughts do help with depression, but I think it's also okay to recognize that you can't be up all the time.
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yeah, a pretty major one, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be humble or anything. If anything, I feel teh need to establish my territory and domain even more resolutely.
Eh. Kirsti was supportive tonight, suggested a day for roleplaying or something. But that's the point, wth am I going to do that?
A) I have to work
B) I have to find someone to do it with who also has time off at the same time
C) I have to go this this traffic class on Saturday, so I don't even have a weekend this week.
Stupid life.
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this might cheer you up... or get you singing a groovy song
My makeup is dry and it clags on my chin
Im drowning my sorrows in whisky and gin
The lion tamers whip doesnt crack anymore
The lions they wont fight and the tigers wont roar
La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la
So lets all drink to the death of a clown
Wont someone help me to break up this crown
Lets all drink to the death of a clown
Lets all drink to the death of a clown
The old fortune teller lies dead on the floor
Nobody needs fortunes told anymore
The trainer of insects is crouched on his knees
And frantically looking for runaway fleas
La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la
Lets all drink to the death of a clown
So wont someone help me to break up this crown
Lets all drink to the death of a clown
La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la
Lets all drink to the death of a clown
La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la
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I get accute bouts of depression. They really suck. One thing that I have realized is that when I get hit with accute depression I go into a kind of tunnel vision. I've also realized, like what stacer was saying, that I can't really fight it when it happens. A lot of it is just letting it pass safely. My tendency is to grab a nearby sharp object and start adding to my scar collection. That is a bad way of coping, but part of it is that I have a really hard time crying so I use cutting to relieve the pressure.
More effective, is for me to physically move my location and do something different than what I was doing before. Sometimes I have to try a few things before I find something that can occupy me. I sometimes get into my car and drive somewhere jst to get perspective. Course sometimes I can't push out the thought to crash my car or run it off a cliff, so I don't drive. I can use cleaning, shopping or random service acts to give me a quick fix, but sometime that just avoiding the issue.
If that doesn't work, then I call someone. Parents, siblings, friends, whoever is available. If no one is available then I call my therapists. If my therapists aren't avaible then I call a crisis line. If the crisis-line or therapist doesn't help, well then it's to the hospital. I hope you don't get as self-destructive as I get to have to be hospitalized.
The point is that, for me, I have to do something to get perspective on things. Breaking the tunnel vision can be really difficult, particularly since it often gets to the point where nothing anyone says means anything. It like people are talking and giving suggestions that are really good ideas, but those ideas just can't sink in for some reason. It just takes time for the good things to sink in.
One thing I try to remember, is that for all the bad things that happen, something good has got to happen eventually. So if I can just hold out, then maybe something good might happen to make up for the bad things.
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well, I don' t get suicidal.
But I also can't really change my routine. I'm locked in. So even if I can motivate myself to do something about the depression, I don' t have the option. Now that I'm in the professional world and not working on student jobs, I can't just call in sick whenever I need to take a break. between that an commute, there's nearly 10 hours of my day. Evenings are tough too.
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Here's my own little challenge lately. I think I'm getting better at handling it, but sometimes I can get a little obsessive over particular things, especially the really positive and the really negative. For example, on the positive side, I had a date this last weekend. Fun, and a little unusual for my life. Nice. He's a nice guy, and we have a good time together. We're good friends as well.
So now I find myself fighting the urge to think way too much about this subject. And now at church activities, I wonder how I'm supposed to act, and tend to go for the opposite of showing too much interest, and then almost ignoring him as I try to mingle. Or I end up trying to start conversations with him, and even though we've been friends for months, my mind goes blank and either nothing or nonsense comes out.
It seems to me that if I just stopped thinking about it, things might flow more naturally. And then again, maybe he's feeling as awkward as I am, and so I'm not the only one with the problem of trying to talk.
I do much better with changing my thoughts and redirecting myself when I have negative obsessive thoughts (how am I going to handle my finances, how am I going to get such and such assignment done, etc)--I've learned that I have to redirect my energy, focus on what I can do, let go of what I can't control, etc. But it's much harder when it's something interesting, like this.
Any thoughts?
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I think you should start obtaining financial documents on this person. Make sure you know his routine. Find out what he does every second of every day. Trach each and every breath
KIDDING!
ah, the old over-thinking problem. The question is, why are you over thinking? Are you really eager to make this an intense romantic situation? Or do you just not know where to go next?
In the first case, well, is it HIM or the idea of the relationship that's more interesting? In the second case, make some decisions.
Until then, try to treat him like any other friend. If you want to do soemthing together, plan it and invite him. etc etc.
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No, I'm not really eager to make it an intense romantic situation. That might be fun, but I'm thinking more along the lines of, wow, maybe there is something there... and wondering how I find out if there is something there--when the thing is I know that I'll find out as it happens, and there's nothing I can do to hurry up the process. I have no patience. I want to know the end from the beginning. I can't stand having Christmas presents sit under the tree. I'm that kind of person.
So I'm trying to just enjoy the friendship, but am wondering how I can get back that feeling I had last month of being able to tease him when I felt like it, tell him something if I wanted him to know it, flirt with him casually because I could--without wondering what his reaction is. You know? Just go back to being myself around him, instead of constantly worrying whether my self is good enough that he'll like me. So I try to be normal, but it's a stilted sort of normal, in which I'm hyperaware of him, which actually is exhausting and I wish I knew how to turn it off.
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yeah, well, it's not necessarily the most helpful thing, or what you want to hear, but learn patience ("This vat can flash fry a buffalo in 5 seconds" "Oh, but I want it NOW!") -- note that this comes from a man who gets bored waiting for microwave popcorn.
My best remedy for impatience is distraction. I read email while I wait for my oatmeal water to boil. I brush my teeth while waiting for the shower to get warm. Heck, this is why I read in the bog (ok, yeah, I know, tmi). How to distract you from relationship anticipation? I don't know. I think this is what dates are for. You date the person while you wait to see if a relationship will work out with them.
This part isn't a solution, just an observation. If there IS something there, than it's because of how you acted around him. He didn't fall in love with the awkward bit. He started being interested because of how you acted around him ina fun and casual manner. So, I dunno, stop caring so much how it works out. Zen like. Just be int he moment, and don't worry about how the moment will make him react.
Yeah, I'm so full of helpfulness.
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Yeah, I'm sure I've said this a few times before elsewhere, but the thing with me and Jenny is I haven't had time to stop and smell the roses like you have stacer. Maybe find some things to take your mind off of it. Don't pscyhe yourself up so much, etc.
So, to touch on something I brought up elsewhere, I just noticed this feeling of insignificance. I'm not big on being a part of the community. Never was. So I never really got to know many people, or make many acquaintances and so on. And the same thing with back at school, although it's a tad different. At first I didn't really want to get to know anyone, what with my wanting to transfer out after the semester (but now I'm not until next year). I've a nice handful of friends, a few people in the up-and-up (administration and faculty kind) and am enjoying myself.
The thing is, I don't know why this thought brought me on the verge of breaking down last night. Maybe it could be because I see myself as an important person later on in my life. Being famous, or some big company CEO type. I'm sure everyone has those thoughts, but I actually want to do it. I want to be that actor everyone loves, I want to be that person that started a small business and things go well enough that it takes off.
So, now that I've made my intentions clear, what is it? (I don't have a good way to word my question.)
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Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking.
Though it seems like you just want to do something with your life. Does that something rely on the reaction of other people to you? well, that may be a tough goal to deal with. YOu can't control what other people think of you. You can try, but being famous isn't necessarily something you have control over. Want to just be accomplished so YOU feel like you've done something of value? That's easier. Though you're going to have to learn to discipline yourself and work on things. Get good at something that interests you and that you can apply. Then work on it. This takes practice and a lot of work.
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But I also can't really change my routine. I'm locked in.
Don't give in to defeatistism. (That would be my unprofessional, opinionated opinion) This is one of the worst things you can let yourself fall into, and I say that because I've watched my best friend do it to herself for the past 4 years or so. "I can't change this until I find some better doctors or better meds to help my condition." And so she remains unemployed, living in her parents house.
The commute sucks, I will agree, and it leaves so little time to play, but I think Kristi is right. You need to take some time for yourself, to do something you want to do. Maybe you'll enjoy it, maybe you won't, but at least you took sometime off from the daily grind. I know I get really emotionally tired after months of denial, of not buying any of the 20 things on my wishlist, because we don't have the money, or not doing something for me because I don't have the time--there are all these things I need to get done.
It sounds like this is what you are suffering from. Too much self-denial. I guess all I can say is that it's important enough that you should try find a way to do something that you want to do.
I can offer a game of StarCraft (my current favorite thing to do with my husband--I know it's really old, but I still can't play SC well, why should I try to learn WCIII?), an online rp session over IM (I find this to be very cathartic, especially when our rp group can't get together, something about running through all of the emotions of my character in a short period of time--we could rp out something between Smiddy and Koree that we wouldn't have time for in the board game), or just a chat (and you can kick me in the butt so I actually write some reviews). Just some ideas.
Stacer, here's my suggestion. If you are focusing on something so much that it's causing problems, focus on something else. Realize that he's probably feeling the same way, so look for ways that you can make him feel more comfortable, rather than for ways you can "act normal". I think reading scriptures with Steve helped us when we were dating. But maybe that's too much, so find something simple that you can do together, so you can practice interacting with him at this different level of your relationship.
The thing that helped me the most was talking about how we (Steve and I) saw the relationship, where we saw it going, etc. I know it's bold, but it sounds like you are both good enough friends to be frank with each other. And I know you're not the kind of person to go all freaky about it. Just keep it casual. You are showing him that you care by trying to understand where he is coming from. At least that's the theory, maybe the boys have a different perspective, but if your unable to act normally around him because you are unsure of where the relationship is, and where it is going, then asking is probably the best option.
Again, just my unprofessional, opinionated opinion.
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ok, i'm not entirely locked in. I just dont' have any acceptable alternatives. I don't have sick leave built up, and I may need that for real later on anyway. I only have 10 vacation days a year, and that's already dedicated to different trips to be taken later this year.
Shopping spree is out, we're still working on the month to month bits. The next time I have a free moment is two weeks from now, so when do I do something fun? Staying up late has started to suck more and more. Used to be I could stay up till all hours, but I need to get up early, and it's harder to function here without sleep (they actually want me to work and not jsut sit and be surly, guess that's what the pay raise was for). So, while I'd love a viable option, I just don't see any.
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My mother used to tell me that when I was young she would get really stressed out with having to take care of six children, three of them being babies. So she would get up early and take a book and a canteen of hot chocolate. Then she would drive to the Church parking lot and just sit in the car and read for a twenty minutes or so, then go home. The point is to take a little time to regroup now and again.
I also have a lot of worksheets on stress-management, from my bio-feedback/stress-management sessions. Things like visualization and self-hypnosis work best for me. I can try to scan some of them and send them to you if you want.
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that would be mighty cool of you.
I'm sure my wife thinks I spend a lot of time on myself already. Probably I do. But it's not distraction free, so in my mind it doesn't count. As long as I am still responsible for answering any cries for help, it's not "me" time.
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As long as I am still responsible for answering any cries for help, it's not "me" time.
Doesn't that rule out most of your time once you become a parent? You may not see any "me" time till you retire.
Personally, sometimes I think I have too much "me" time. My whole life is about me right now. Sometimes I realize that if I focused a little more outwardly (service, interest in other's days, watching out for my roommates' struggles, etc.), then I wouldn't have so much time to allow myself to magnify my insignificant problems.
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Of course I don't have much (if any) me time. I thought that was my point.
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that would be mighty cool of you.
I'm sure my wife thinks I spend a lot of time on myself already. Probably I do. But it's not distraction free, so in my mind it doesn't count. As long as I am still responsible for answering any cries for help, it's not "me" time.
Sound a lot like my husband. So since your wife knows you pretty well, I can bet she knows how you feel, even if she doesn't understand it. My husband has the same problem- he'll spend 5 hours at the computer doing (in his words) nothing, and then complain he doesn't have any time for himself. You need to figure out what ACTIONS will make you feel better and do that with your little spare time instead of just "doing nothing" in it.
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The thing that helped me the most was talking about how we (Steve and I) saw the relationship, where we saw it going, etc. I know it's bold, but it sounds like you are both good enough friends to be frank with each other.
No, I definitely don't see a need for any kind of DTRing at this point. I think I just need to make myself to concentrate on other things, like finishing the papers I still have hanging over my head from last semester, getting a nap in before books & basketball tonight, making plans with friends so that I'm still busy enjoying my life, etc.
And Saint, that was my poor attempt to tease. I have no basis for comparison. Like I said, I have the opposite situation and have no idea what it must be like.
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oh, missed that. sorry.
Fuzzy, well, see... the problem is, and I know this sound slike an excuse, but I have this severe ADHD problem, which makes it hard to focus on something sometimes when I have distractions unless I'm INCREDIBLY dedicated to getting it done. NaNoWriMo showed that if I have enough dedication and time, I can do a lot. But I sacrificed a LOT of family time that month, so that's not workable. Sometimes, and I haven't figured out how to predict this either, I can hyperfocus anyway on minutia, like cataloguing CDs or something. I'm not entirely sure how it works.
Plus a lot of the time I don't think i'm doing nothing. I'm usually TRYING to do someting productive. Though my wife does have no conception sometimes of things I think are important.
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I think that sounds less like an excuse and more like a compound to the problem.
You actually sound a LOT like J.T. except I'm positive he's not ADHD at all. He has trouble getting *out* of a train of thought/doing something. Interrupting him in the middle of something can be very difficult.
I can hyperfocus anyway on minutia, like cataloguing CDs or something. I'm not entirely sure how it works.
Ok, that's just creepy.
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actually, ti's not uncommon for ADD sufferers to hyperfocus and be undistractable. It's a weird situation. In my case, at least, however, it often means I don't always choose when/what I can focus on.
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So I'm having issues with the whole job-hunting thing. I've been looking for work and have applied at several places. However, I keep getting turned down by people saying I'm over-qualified. The thing is I kind of want a position where I'm over-qualified, because don't feel like making the my next big career leap at this time.
I kind of feel like the whole job hunting thing is a lose-lose situation. I criticize myself for not getting the job, yet tend to I berate myself when I do get an offer. It's very frustrating.
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It also doesn't help that I go through this monstrous battle with myself to get up the self-esteem to even apply for a job.
I remember once having a lot of confidence and would apply for jobs no matter how unqualified I was.
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And getting rejected for jobs just means it's harder to apply for the next one...
It sucks.
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42, for once I think we share an emotional state (though probably not to the same extremes.) Yesterday my agent called with some pretty severe criticisms about my latest book--in particular, he had issues with something that I believe to be at the very core and heart of my style of writing.
It may not be the exact same situation as yours, but I was very diss-settled by the exchanged, as I have been forced to reassess my narrative style.
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i despise job hunting. nuff said.
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42, I know what you mean. I've gotten the same thing from publishers out here--applying for EA jobs: "you have too much experience; I'm afraid you'll be overqualified and get bored." Applying for assistant/associate editor jobs: "You don't have enough relevant experience in the children's field."
Whatever. I think in this job market they're looking for any excuse they can find to make their job easier in narrowing it down. Don't take it personally. I know it's hard, but just remember that the job market is tough for everyone right now. My roommate's been looking for a job for 6 months now. She finally got a job at the Harvard bookstore, $7 an hour, just to sort of make ends meet while she looks for a better job--and she's got a degree already. I've been temping within my company since March and have yet to get an interview for a full-time position, and they give preference to internal applicants.
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I still think that a large compound/ranch in Montana is the answer to this.
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No. It gets cold there.
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But I hear it's really pretty. We could all be rednecks together . . . wait, nevermind.
42, I feel your pain. I graduated in December 2001, had a three week stint at a company that couldn't keep me due to budget issues, worked for a month as a temp covering outbound calls. *ugh* Then I finally got a job (in June) as a receptionist for a Plumbing Supply company. I was so glad to have a real job that I tried to ignore the fact that I hated the job and didn't get along well with my co-workers, plus they wanted me to be there at 7:00 and I could never make it that early. They finally fired me, and only then did I realize I should have quit months ago. So that was my useful lesson.
I lived off a loan from my mom for about a month and a half, had to forfeit on my apartment (this is partly due to the fact that my roommate went to CA and didn't come back--which lends credence to Megan's "CA Doesn't Exist" theory, especially since I then proceeded to steal and marry said ex-roommate's boyfriend) and move in with relatives. In November I was finally brought on as a temp to my current job, which I love though sometimes grouse about.
This is what I learned. It's better to quit a job you don't enjoy (or at least don't enjoy AND can't keep up with) before they fire you, and if you are faithful and endure to the end (i.e. keep praying for help in finding a job and keep looking) your faith will be rewarded in the end. Sometimes Heavenly Father just likes to test you, so that you can see how much stronger you are than you thought.
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My policy has always been to find another job and then quit. It happened with Convergys, it happened with Teaching company. However, I'm also a big fan of burning bridges... which isn't necessarily a good thing. At Convergys I made sure they wouldn't want me again. Same at Teach co. THe latter was a mistake, because returning to a new position in a different dept might have been cool.
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Burning bridges like that might not be a good idea. Just in case your prospective employer does call your previous employer.
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I want to go pick up an application for a job but J.T. has the car and it's too cold to walk on only a few hours of sleep.
*feels sorry for self*
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It is too cold. I recommend snuggling under a comforter, watching a good movie, and drinking cocoa
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Or sleeping.
Sleeping sounds really good right now.
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So ummm... whats stopping you MoD?
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Halfway between "cool stuff found on the internet" and "therapy related"
The winner of the 2000 Nobel Prize for chemistry won it "for their discovery that, biochemically, romantic love may be indistinguishable from having severe obsessive-compulsive disorder. "
http://www.improb.com/ig/ig-pastwinners.html#ig2000
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without reading the article in question, which is remarkably confused as far as organized, I'm going to assume that this is much like the other biodeterministic crap I've read/heard before. Most likely, they have a confused definition of romantic love.
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It's not the actual Nobel prize, it's a spoof called the Ig Nobel prize, from what I can tell of the site.
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Hmm. That'll teach me not to do my research.
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wow, from all that the lesson you learned was not to do research?
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Ok, so the 'prize' is dumb, but the research is real? That's just confusing.
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So I'm sitting here at school, supposedly working on my papers to finish off my incomplete class from last semester, and I am so not able to concentrate. I was talking to my friend tonight and she summed it up, and this is why, despite so many good things in my life, I am not satisfied: I wanted the diamond necklace, but got the gold necklace. So despite all the wonderful things in my life, I focus on the thing(s) I don't have (not materially, but you get the analogy).
I wish someone could just zap me with a magic wand and make me concentrate. How do you not worry? It's not like I can control anything outside of myself, so why worry about it? Yet I do.
[And, to make it just a complete I-feel-sucky-so-I'm-going-to-complain-all-night kind of night, it's raining and I left my umbrella at home, I'm wet, it's cold and smells bad in this library, and ... and... well, maybe I'm getting better because I used to be able to go on and on.]
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If you figure it out, let me know.
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Well, its a common ADD thing to have new stuff cravings. I know what you mean though,... the problem is that all the stuff we covet is ephermal, illusory, as real to us as the cave was real to Plato and Socrates. It can never be as good as we hope it will be. And yes thats kind of depressing, its why materialism is a bad thing and why faith in something better can be a good thing. A lot of it has to do with time.... free time can be murder on your needs and desires. When I was stationed on a coast guard cutter and we'd go on patrol, I would essentially have no free time whatsoever for the three months I was underway. Even when I was off the ship on liberty and cavorting around the tropics I never stopped, so coveting was less of a problem. Course the 3 months back in port were murder. Nothing but free time compared to the 24 hour 7 day a week routine of living on a boat... so I tried to fill the void with books, tv, nice dinners and so on. Getting off at 4 pm was the killer, because it meant you had 7 or 8 waking hours to kill, and you sure as heck didn't want to hang out with the crew. ... why .... well try sharing 2 showers and 2 toilets and a bedroom with 35 other guys for three months straight and you'll know why. Plus hanging out with your workin friends gets old.
So in port I spent cash like... well like a drunken sailor because I didn't have anything else to do. And underway I had to save cash. But the only time I was unhappy was when I had time to stop and think and be bored for any length of time.
I dont know if thats the problem with you... but I guess that explains why Im depressed right now....
Im bored, and tired, its the kind of boredom that is hard to motivate yourself out of...
I need to hang out with friends, but I work 13 out of 14 days every 2 weeks (crazy aint it).
Oh well
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Actually, no, I was talking about my current obsessing over a relationship, nothing materialistic at all. I was making an analogy. I can't think of anything else sometimes, so I try to distract myself--that is, to concentrate, to make myself do what I'm supposed to be doing--but I keep getting distracted with my worries. It's a great friendship that isn't turning into what I thought it was turning into. Gold necklace--something wonderful--when I wanted a diamond one--something even more stunning.
I should be working on my paper. And have been, a little. At least I'm building momentum, and it makes me feel a little better to at least get one of the three done (they've all three been almost done for a month, but I've been distracted from them in January).
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so, not a healthy relationship?
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Perfectly healthy. Great friendship. Just not more. In fact, he's the most faithful, most good guy I've ever known, and he's a close friend. He's just not beyond friendship, and I would like more. And I'm a worryer. I'm still a big worryer. Worry worry worry worry worry worry worry worry worry. Wow, that's a funny looking word if you look at it long enough.
I know where he stands, he knows where I stand, and maybe someday, but not now. (And maybe not ever, of course.)
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Nothing like a little editing to make me feel better. I couldn't make myself work on a new paper, but I was able to edit--and therefore finish--the two that have been almost done all month. Now I have to figure out if I can print them out here at school, because I used up all the money on my ID. If I can, then I can turn them in and FORGET THEM. And then only have one Caldecott paper and one huge final project left.
Progress!
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You editors are a strange breed.
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but a handy one. I fully intend to make Stacer read my whole manuscript.
Y'know, cuz that'll make her feel better.
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Hum. That's very magnanimous of you.
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I fully intend to read all of your manuscript. Just not this week. :-/
P.S. I think I have the electronic copy of my comments from the first few chapters for you here. Maybe I haven't put the comments in the file yet and that's why I haven't sent it to you... I've been meaning to send it to you for a while, though, and there must be some reason why I hadn't sent it yet. I'll look into it.
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You editors are a strange breed.
I think it's something to do with channeling my OCD tendencies. Focusing on the minutiae of a paper (including how to spell minutiae, which I'm too lazy/tired to look up right now) must take a little bit of OCD to find it soothing. :D
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oh, I don't know about that. I'm not very obsessive, and editing takes my mind off of my worries sometimes. Mostly because I get the chance to concentrate on something different than whatever is stressing me out. Like my thesis, which must be done by Friday. Of course, hanging out on the message board is also more fun than writing my thesis chapters. Right now, for example, I *should* be writing the last half of chapter five, but I'm posting messages instead.
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I'm not OCD at all, and I find it soothing too. It's the state of mind you have to be in. There's a logic in it, for me, that's soothing- a logic that just doesn't exist in things like literature. I like having a right answer and trying to find it. Much for the same reason I used to enjoy math before calculus ruined it for me.
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<Insert some sort of clever, sexist comment about how all of the editors on this board are women, and how their gender must be drawn to a profession filled with OCD nit-pickers. Get in trouble. Repeat.>
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well, it does make sense. After all, they're always correcting me.
Anyway, I can't focus on stuff like editing when I'm down. I can catalogue CDs or something, btu not anything TRULY productive. just semi-productive/organizational.
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I'm not saying I am OCD (at least, not diagnosed). I just recognize that sometimes I have the tendency to over-focus. So I might as well overfocus on something that takes my mind off what I was focusing on.
And EUOL, you have no idea. I don't think it's necessarily my entire gender, but women do have a tendency to want to control their surroundings, so being an editor offers a form of socially acceptable controlling and correcting. But I would say it's more of what fuzzy and Brenna were talking about, how it's also soothing to solve the problems, to fix things and make them better.
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And since men so stubbornly resist our efforts at control we have to calm down somehow.
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lol. You ladies are giving me some great material....
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You know wanting control is where most OCD starts. And editing is just a sociably acceptable kind of OCD. Taken to extremes, it can probably be very harmful in the wrong situation just like everything else.
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Thanks, Jeff. Now I can obsess over whether I'm too obsessive. ;)
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I'm more mentally healthy and stable than half of the people I've ever met, so I"m not going to worry about the normal female tendancies to want some semblance of control over my life.
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if you're only more stable than half the people you've met, then you're less stable the other half.
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No, I'm just as stable as they are. Just more intelligent. You're forgetting that the more intelligent you are, the more prone you are to mental problems.
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that doesn't make sense, you know. If you have more problems, you're less stable.
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Yes it does- I'm one of the few people who is intelligent but doesn't have that many problems.
Except pride apparently; but I dicussed this with my mother-in-law and she agrees with me.
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well, than you must be more stable than MORE than half the people you met.
Anyway, I'm down in the dumps again, folks. Money problems. I did end up having to buy an alternater for the car, which just pointed out to me all the things I could have bought had I $400 to spend. But here I am spending $400 even though I don't really have it. Sucks.
So I brought the car home, and i'm getting ready to bring it to work. I scrape it off (about .2" freezing rain on it, enough to be a hassle to scrape), test all the lights and wipers (it's still raining) and then drive up to the top of the drive way (my driveway is nearly a block long, all uphill). That's when the wipers stop working. I hope that's it just ice or something, but I was already running late so I had to go scrape the other car and bring it again, because you can't drive in this weather without wipers.
So, again, I'm focussed on how little money I have and how the things that I consider necessities in this society (my computer, my car) keep failing and costing me more money, so I can't save up.
So I'm about frustrated as hell. ANd when I'm frustrated, I have a compulsion to shop: specifically for computer bits or software, comics, and games.
Naturally, none of that is going to help me save up, so I can't go with my usual release.
Which partially explains why I currently have 25 active games in Button Men, and have open games for a dozen more.
ANyway, just a little depressed today, weather isn't helping, circumstances of life aren't helping. I know it all sounds a little pathetic, after all, it's just inconveniences and hardly terrible. But yeah, well. THat's all.
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update:
I'm not a happy camper, for the time being at least
i've actually found a game that my wife likes a lot and will play me 2-player, and that I really enjoy. And what's more, I convinced her to stay up and play it. It makes me feel good when she sacrifices sleep to be with me doing something I enjoy. validates my worth as a human or something. So that was a fun.
And best yet, I not only won, but I utterly DESTROYED her. 27 points to 1 (with two points unclaimed).
(oops, something freudian slipping in there)
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And are you going to tell us which game it is?
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Only if someone asks.
(JUST KIDDING!)
Age of Mythology. Review coming this week.
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So have you ever been so frustrated with a situation that you feel you have to do something about it even though you know anything you do will just make it worse, and so you do something anyway because for some strange reason you think the worst is better than limbo, and you really just make matters worse?
That's what I just did last night.
And if I had just waited it through, I would have recognized that most of my frustration had nothing to do with the situation I was trying to fix, but was really because I was worn out and stressed out and focusing way too much energy on this one thing that I should have just been relaxing and enjoying.
AND--if I had waited one more day, that frustration would have been eased as well by the person I was frustrated with. Augh! So all that for nothing, and I think I've possibly ruined, or at least set back significantly, a good friendship along the way.
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that's... very hypothetical....
but yeah, sometimes you act when you shouldn't. It's part of human nature.
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Okay, so I didn't want to lament about a boy on Valentine's Day. Because it has nothing to do with Valentine's Day, or my desperateness or anything. Just my stupidity. I said some really stupid things to him, telling this good, good friend that he didn't understand me and that basically he was clueless because he didn't see something I saw in our friendship. I should have just waited for those feelings to pass, because they always do, and I wouldn't have been frustrated with him in a few days, and he would never have been the wiser.
Now I feel like I've sabotaged a perfectly good friendship with my stupidity. Even though I felt as though I should have waited to say anything, I went ahead and said something, and now, if he even wants to talk to me ever again, I know I've set us back and that we probably can't be the close friends we were just last week (despite the DTR that brought everything out in the open several weeks ago, we were still good friends).
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This is definitely a psychological problem.
I'm a bad loser. My husband is even worse; therefore when we play games against each other - especially Magic- things tend to go badly.
How can I be a better loser?
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Just remind yourself its all fun. Take breaks. You could try drinking, but that would just make you obnoxious as well as a bad loser.
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Easily solved. Have a competition to be less competitive. Trying to win makes you lose, (which makes you win) while trying to lose makes you win, which ultimately, makes you lose.
After tripping your head around on that, I'm sure you'll feel differently towards losing.
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I feel I'm not being taken seriously here.
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I'm quite serious. I think if you do some things where the goal is to lose, you'll start to react differently to the idea. I mean, for example, maybe you should play a videogame you're hopeless at against a master player. You will lose, and know this going into the game. So you'll have already accepted it when it happens. I don't know if it would really work, but it makes sense to me.
N.B: this is coming from someone who lost a game of Goldeneye and tried to skewer his opponent with a pencil. My new tactic is to psyche up and annihilate them in game, or surreptitiously change the game to something I'm good at.
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I'm a little weird on the whole losing thing. I don't mind losing if i'm actually bad. Losing because the dice roll consistently poorly, that makes me VERY VERY ANGRY! If I made some bad mistakes, well.... too bad I'm stupid. This is difficult because I'm not angry about the things that are conceivably in my control, but things that NO ONE has control over frustrate me to no end. I don't know what to do about that either.
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*sigh*
He just has this self-esteem/depression/martyr thing and he makes everything into his fault and so it's damn near IMPOSSIBLE to have discussions about why we react badly to things like this.
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it's tough. I don't like talking about it either. I'd rather not fight. The one time I did yell back the kids heard. which of course, didn't make me want to do it again.
But for that. the BYU couples group therapy is really good. Really.
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I don't really play games that often--no video games, barely any board and card games. I was the same way at playing chess with my brother when we were growing up. If I saw I was about to lose, I'd dash all the pieces all over the floor. Very bad loser. I still don't like losing. I'm still as highly competitive as before. But I don't play games nowadays with family (as I have no family here) and I find playing against friends gives me good training in courtesy. Most people are generally nicer to friends than family when it comes to manners and yelling and blowing up, etc.
Or maybe it's just that I'm not such a mean person anymore in general. I still get depressed if I lose, as if it somehow connects with my self-worth that I can't answer a Trivial Pursuit sports question. ::) Oh well.
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there's nothing more fun than WINNING a game. The secret comes in having fun just PLAYING.
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Well I've finished 3 of the 4 papers that were due this week. The last of course being due tomorrow morning, so I must do it tonight. I just found out (half an hour ago) that Pam Houston is doing a book reading in Logan tonight, and I want to go! Logan is 2 hours away and I'm betting J.T. doesn't want to spend 4 hours in a car tonight....
I'm so depressed because of all the stupid crap I have to read and the fact that nothing I turn in for my 365 class is good enough. I feel so STUPID.
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I felt that way about one of my Don Quixote classes and about my Faust class. Painfully, both those classes had grades dependent entirely on 2 papers. (actually, the Faust class was worse, with one paper -- due at the end fo the semester -- and one final exam). What's worst is that the Faust class professor was also in charge of the admissions board for the CmLit dept at BYU. FRUSTRATING. and not good for the self esteem. TLE publishing the paper for Faust was a big help for the self esteem dept.
I wish I could look over these papers and be more critical. However, I get bored really quickly and don't get critical enough, so I often felt that editing my own papers was a waste of time. It's easier to do other people's because I haven't been thinking about them for hours so I know where the jumps are.
Stupid condensing argument in the name of hurrying.
Here's another one took, since I'm on a good rant. I wrote a paper for by Doctrine & Covenants class about how there was no such thing as knowledge that wasn't gained from God. My argument rested on scriptures like "whenever a man gains a blessing, it is by obedience upon the law it is predicated" (the law in this case being study and discipline). I still have the paper, if you're interseted. But that's not hte point. The point was I did this 10 page paper, and my prof's response was "what about regular intellectual study?" That was the WHOLE FRICKIN POINT of the paper: that you didn't gain that blessing on your own, it was given to you for obeying the relevant laws. ARGH! DID YOU READ MY THESIS?!
anyway, I can understand. I hate it when my papers are beneath my standards of intellectual rigor. ANd I hate it even more when I settle for something below my standards, or when I cheat on an argument that I know will fly past my professor but wouldn't before someone really looking at it objectively. <sigh>
you are not alone fuzzy.
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If it makes you feel any better, in four of my five classes I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing in them. For some reason i just can't get into them.
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This is why some of us are creative writing majors rather than lit majors.
Assignments=stuff you do anyway.
It's a beautiful thing.
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Yeah, it is weird. I can easily pop out a poem or two, or some "Sudden Fiction" story for my Creative writing class than when I try to write for my War & Lit journal. That does make sense though EUOL. Thanks.
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So they have lots of therapy, drugs, stuff to treat depression.
But what can they do about chronic pessimism?
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That takes a lot of therapy.
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Ok, then. 42, you've done a lot of child development stuff. How much of this stuff is genetic and how much of it is taught? Just the pessimism thing, or things like how you deal with anger.
I'd like my kids to be well-adjusted.
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well, if it's genetic, and you both display it, maybe it skips a generation. Are your parents and in-laws this way too?
And if it's learned, well, you're both displaying it, so they'll probably learn it.
I don't think that there is any way to say definitely that any behavior is learned or genetic. Sure, a lot of people have opinions, some even have very specific opinions, but there's nothing close to saying definitely one way or the other with dependibility and finality.
On the other hand, if it's learned, kids do also learn from places other than their immediate families, so even if you show these traits constantly, they may get it from somewhere else.
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I'm sorry, I was trying to be diplomatic about this. I'm well-adjusted and my husband's parents screwed him up royally. His father has a horrible temper which J.T. also has, (if less often) and so the rest of the family acted as a big bunch of enablers for his father's ridiculous behavior.
I want to not make the same mistakes, and have children who are happy and see life in a positive manner.
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Oh, I'm not following the conversation very well then. This will take more thought.
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Well, this is quite the topic in itself. The whole nature v.s. nurture kind of things.
Well, obviously the answer in both. What most researching think is that people are born with certain inherited tendency. Like depression, alchohalism or homesexuality. However, those inherited traits may or may not manifest themselves depending on the enviroment.
Just about every child-development researcher places a lot of emphasis on early childhood experiences. Particularly, during the process called attachment, when the child starts to connect and trust with parents. Many scientist believe that if the child doesn't attach well to his or her parents it leads to a host of problems.
On the flip side, children can also be surprisingly resiliant in combating bad experiences or genetic dispositions. So I guess nothing is really set in stone.
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Not your fault, Eric. I was trying to keep it more general because the Internet is ...well, the internet, and I do like my in-laws and don't like to go around typing negative things about them even when I'm in a bad mood.
I don't need something to get back to them 2nd or 3rd hand and hurt the feelings of a bunch of people I want to continue liking me.
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well, Attachment theory is only one of many competing and combining theories for how childhood development wroks.
Anyway, what strikes me most about neurobiology, behavioral sciences and development theory is that none of them make any reference at all to individual choice and decision making in one's own development. It seems that we should recognize more the individual's own will in growth.
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"Rabbit season!" "Duck Season"
(http://www.staytoon.com/Images/CupsandGlasses/Seasonplate400.jpg)
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Thing is, rabbit and duck season over lap.
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And they are tasty too.
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and then there's venison too.
Yummy deer meat.
(ok, I confess, I almost just wrote "yummy dear meet")
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fuzzy, funny you should mention this today. I personally have had to consciously work on my ability to manage anger when I get really hurt or frustrated. So yesterday morning on the way to church someone brought up something that really upset me, and I was pretty upset and didn't want to talk to him or walk with him right then, just needed some space. He chose a really bad time to discuss it, and so I was all crying-eyes girl during church, which of course makes everyone ask me if I'm okay... etc.
So all this is to bring up the fact that he told me today that he had never had anyone be that angry with him in his life, so mad that they couldn't speak to him. And he said that basically he can't handle it and doesn't want someone who would be like that.
That was the release for me. If he can't take me as I am--and he ain't seen nothin' yet, if he thinks THAT was bad...--then I don't want him. But it also got me thinking about how I deal with moments when I get so frustrated I feel like hitting something (not that I actually do, but those old tendencies, ingrained from growing up in my family, still remain though I always try to become a better person).
The point of all this relating to your question is that I personally think it's nurture in this case. I grew up in a family much like the one you describe, and it's going to be a lifelong process for me to erase from my behavior the remnants of that influence. The gospel helps a great deal; living so that I keep my covenants not only keeps my temper in check, but also changes me as a person so I'm not the person my family raised me to be--and that's a good thing.
It's part of becoming a transitional character to recognize the patterns of my family of origin and seek to change them, so that when I have kids I will have the emotional resources to be a better example to them as a parent, a spouse, and a person. That's the reason why I majored in MFHD, to learn about what it takes to have a more successful family. If you want to know what a transitional character is, study Abraham's life. Look at who his father was, and what great things Abraham was able to accomplish because of the life he chose.
Sorry, maybe it's not all relevant. I do think it's something you can choose to teach your children, and a feeling you can encourage in your home. Guess I just have a bit of a soapbox when it comes to choosing to create a life that's different from the one your parents prepared you for.
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I plan to actively campaign for my kids to not develop the problems we have; being aware of them is half the battle, I think. I want to teach them that if they're angry, it's ok to be angry, it's ok to need to be alone and do whatever you need to feel better as long as you dont' hurt anyone else.
J.T. HATES confrontation. So if something upsets him, he says nothing. He keeps it all inside until it builds up and he just blows up and starts slamming doors, for a reason no better than there's a particular snack food that we're out of. Not very healthy, and plus it annoys his wife. His whole family does this. My family never had fights- when we were upset at each other, we got grumpy, and ignored whomever we were mad at. His family actually yells at each other. Obviously it doesn't happen often, but it's just such a change from my family. I can count on one hand the number of times my mother yelled in the house.
He also has this weird thing where he acts angry when he's really sad or scared. THAT's confusing, because my brain says "Angry. Leave him alone til he calms down" because that's how I work. When really he needs to be talked to, and hugged. Then he thinks I'm mad at him because I'm ignoring him, and.... oh, people are complicated animals.
Your experience reminded me of something that happened to me today too. A guy in one of my classes said something really insensitive about how stupid J.T. and I were to wait so long to get married - he married HIS wife 3.5 months after meeting her. At the time I was kind of shocked and just said something like "whatever" to him, and went on with the conversation I was having. But after class I realized I was FURIOUS at this guy. He has NO IDEA what we went through- how dare he say something so unbelieveably rude to a virtual stranger?? I had several hours to myself and calmed down. I'm still upset about it, and trying to decide if I should confront him about how offended I am, since we're working on a project together.
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now I'm not telling you how to act, but I wonder, fuzzy, why you let someone who knows nothing about you and whom you must not have built up much respect for, and who you probably won't see again after this project, why you let him offend you so much? i mean, why does his opinion count enough?
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I don't know why it made me so upset. THAT'S why I'm so upset about it- because I'm positive it shouldn't have made any difference.
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again, i'm just theorizign. I'm probably pulling this out of my butt, and I'm not trying to suggest that this is the case, just throwing it out as a possibility, if I'm wrong, i'm wrong.
But sometimes we maybe feel the sting of something like this because we feel like maybe they're right in someway. Or else we wish we fit in better so even though what we did was right, we wish it could have been more like the people around us.
Just a thought, it might be the case, it also might just be really wrong.
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Yes, I'm sure that's part of it... kind of. I'd put it in a way that's a lot um... nicer than yours though. One that doesn't make me sound like a total loser, which is what his comment made me feel like in the first place
You know , this is interesting in that it perfectly demonstrates the reason that girls talk to each other about this sort of thing, because guys tend to miss the point and try to solve things. I was saying to stacer that I sympathized with her and you're trying to help me explain things.
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ok, i'm sorry. I really am.
I didn't try to make it seem like a loser thing to do, and if I did that, I'm sorry. I purposefully used "we" to include me. I do it too. I don't think it makes us losers to do this sort of thing. It's just human nature.
I'm also sorry I misinterpreted your intentions.
I'll just go over here and hust my big yap now.
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I rarely get mad about stuff like that--things that people I don't know very well might say, etc. Annoyed, yes. The things I get mad about are the things that are closest to me, usually the ones I can't control. I used to be a door-slammer, too, but I think I'm generally past that. Maybe I just haven't had anything to get me mad enough or maybe I didn't have any doors to slam on Sunday morning. ;D I did throw my hat onto the shelf when I was hanging up my coat.
Overall, yes, I was mad, but I always apologize after, and my episodes of anger are always because I'm really hurt. I think this is just a defense mechanism--go on the offensive because otherwise the pain will be too much to bear. This experience has helped me realize I still need to work on it--I thought I'd improved enough that I was now socially acceptable.
Then again, I think that the boy is just looking for perfection and expects that just because he is a middle-of-the-road person emotionally, anyone he dates should also be that way. I don't think that's a realistic expectation, but more power to him. Personally, I think if you can't live your life with passion, what's the use? I do admire people who can hide their strong emotions and I know I can learn from that, but I don't think I should try to give up feeling things as deeply as I do. I just need to figure out how to control the initial reaction. Plus, he really could have timed it better.
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It's ok, I know your intention was to help and not to make me feel stupid. It was just really upsetting to me because he was basically making me feel like a loser for waiting "so long" to get married after we met. We wanted to get married a lot sooner- but we also wanted to get married in the temple, which meant waiting at least a year until after J.T. got baptized. It was really hard, and we really didn't want to wait, and so basically then this guy is making me feel like a loser for doing the right thing.
The part of what you said connecting in is that given the chance we would have gotten married as quickly as he did, but we didn't have that option, so it's an unfair comparison. Unfairness makes me mad.
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Personally, I think if you can't live your life with passion, what's the use? I do admire people who can hide their strong emotions
Well, I don't like the term hide. "control" is better. It's good to have strong emotions, just not letting thos emotions control you.
The part of what you said connecting in is that given the chance we would have gotten married as quickly as he did, but we didn't have that option, so it's an unfair comparison. Unfairness makes me mad.
I concur. Unfairness sucks. It's so not just.
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Actually, I considered the word "control" and rejected it. Maybe it's because if I had chosen it, it would mean I have no control over my emotions. And I don't think that's true.
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Maybe that's why I was always a big fan of the Vulcans.
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Yay, not a blender anymore
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yet, I'm still begging.
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Okay, so I have an issue I've been pondering lately quite a bit. Empathy and sympahy. My therapist have worked with me alot on this. Apparently, my empathic skills go a little over board from time to time. Not to say that my empathic abilities are at all acurate.
For example, I was sitting in Church about a month ago when the teacher gave a lesson on church attendance. So he started out be asking for all the excuses people use to not attend church. This, was fine except he then followed it up with guilt trip of "we don't really have an excuse to not attend church." Course, then everyone points out the obvious excuses where you really can't help but to miss church, like being stranded in desert. So as that discussion went on, I started thinking about the times I haven't made it to church, like when I've been hospitalized. Then I started thinking about all the people who can't go to church because they are in the hospital. Then I think about all the people who are shut in and therefor can't go to church. Then I think about the people who don't live near a church to attend. Then I think about those people who absoliutely need to be working during church, like ER Doctors.
So, all of that on top of having only 3-4 hours of sleep sent me into a panic attack in the during church. Course, then I get upset at myself for having a panic attack which drags out the panic attack. And starts that whole viscious cycle. For those of you who don't know, a panic attack is fairly hard to get out of once you get into one, until you have experienced quite a few of them. I used to get panic attacks that would last hours and would only let up when I was so physically exhausted that I'd fall unconcious.
So that's the example. I notice that I tend to try and carry the burdens of the world sometimes, except I'm just not built to carry them. so I've been trying to desensitize myself so that I can still feel sympathetic, but not let it incapacitate me. Then after I learn to not let it incapacitate me, I would like to learn how to shrug it off an not carry all that emotional baggage for a couple days or weeks.
Oh yea, just to avoid this, please don't respond "just don't let it bother you" or "just ignore it." I'm obviously not capable of doing that in case you didn't pick that up already.
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I get bad panic attacks too, usually when I get nervous about something. I know what you mean about not being able to get rid of it; you have to force yourself asleep which is nearly impossible and then you hopefully get some half-decent sleep and pray that its over when you wake up. One of the things that makes me the most nervous (and thus most prone to a panic attack) is being around strangers. I'm usually fine once I get to know them a little, but until then its really bad. This is the main reason I talk on the internet, as I can talk to a stranger without going crazy. And you don't want any of the bad habits I've developed to deal with it, so I'll abstain from offering advice. Although... maybe you should hear this.
About six years ago something happened to me and I had an emotional breakdown. It was about four years before I really got back on my feet. Even now, I'm still incredibly emotional. Its opened up something inside me that I can't really explain; its like I went from looking at the world through a stained-glass window to opening up the door and walking out in it. I used to never cry... now I still cry about the 9-11 terrorist attack. I'm hugely passionate about things I once would have just shielded away. I know I'm forever changed, its never going to go back to how it once was. The last six years has been like a constant battle to regain control over my emotions, but I am. They're bigger and larger then ever, but I'm starting to gain the the ability to control them. Now they are starting to feed me instead of just ripping me apart. Its almost dangerous at times how emotional I can get over something that before would have just brushed off me. So I have to be careful; it takes patience, and pratice.
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see, 42, this is exactly why I don't think about "bad stuff."
actually, i'm serious. I don't have panic attacks, but I get depressed. Thinking I should be doing something else, like, for example, I should be helping the homeless. But there are too many homeless to help. How is it fair that I help one person even? And it's not like I have the resources to help even one person, so add guilt on top of the depression over not doing the right thing. All of which leads me to stop thinking about these things except superficially at all.
so this isn't exactly what you're talking about. but it is my way of showing empathy, which I perhaps have in overabundance when I start applying it too much as well. I just react differently than you.
I've heard that some psychologists use conditioning to help you over come the tendency to slip into panic attacks, by doing things to help you elevate your metabolism, raise your heart rate, breathing, etc, and helping you disassociate the physiological signs from a bad emotional experience, but other than that I'm a poor one to ask about panic. Plus it doesn't sound like the best treatment for getting at the core of what you're going through.
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Well have you looked into getting more sleep? When I was on my ship I never got any uninterupted sleep ever (try sleeping above the main Jet fuel tank of a 270 foot ship {yes jet fuel, we had a helicopter on board}) The point is neither did my coworkers and it really messed us up, after 3 months of it we had to spend days or weeks getting reconditioned to living again.
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well, i wouldn't be surprised if there was a connection. After all, 42 has said in this thread that he has major difficulties sleeping. But since that's the case, just 'getting more sleep' isn't going to help.
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Yeah, I have some major sleep issues. A double dose of Nyquil doesn't even make me drowsy anymore. Last night I didn't fall asleep until 6 a.m. after taking my sleep medication at 10 p.m. The sleep medication I'm on is at four times normal dosage.
I also have problems getting my muscles to relax after I go to the gym or do other physical activities.
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I have the same problem about physical relaxation, though not to the same degree. It's very hard for me to make myself relax, and I've had more than one person complain that my muscles were just too rock-hard stressed to massage. And after an hour's worth of massaging they just knot up again anyway.
I've had people tell me to do relaxation techniques (yoga, stretching, deep breathing), and they work to a certain extent, but often too well--I just fall asleep. There's no in-between, no conscious relaxed state. I think my body thinks that if I let go (emotionally, physically) that I'll just fall apart, so it just clenches tighter. This might be similar to your problem--do you feel like if you let go, let yourself sleep, you'll continue to have the dreams you've described, etc.?
Do you stretch after going to the gym? I mean really stretch, like yoga stretching. I imagine relaxation techniques are one of the major parts of your therapy? Also, have you done visualization/daydreaming of what you'll dream as you lie in bed before sleep?
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Yoga stresses me out. So do massages and muscle relaxation techniques.
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I say, with all seriousness, that 42 should spend some time with me.
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have you thought about moving, perhaps to a seaside sunny place like Florida?
But seriously I wish I could help you, Id be willing to bet that 90 percent of you problems are a result of sleep deprivation, that being said something is definately responsible for your inability to sleep. I know you have a psychiatrist but do you regularly see a physician about this problewm as well?
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I wouldn't make such a bet. They're obviously connected, but I don't think the causal factor is so evident.
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Im feeling lucky :)
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Someone posted this comment on another board I'm on, referring to what girls should do to get guys' attention in dating:
Also, make sure that you do all you can to make yourself attractive to the opposite sex. That may seem shallow, but it is the appearance that usually gets a guys attention before he is notices what a cool girl you are. Looks are not everything, but just look your best. It's the confidence that shows through.
Yes, it's important to look your best, but what if your best isn't skinny minny supermodel? Sometimes I feel that LDS guys in particular only see the girls who are 5'3" and 110 lbs, and despite knowing what a cool girl you are and hanging out with you all the time and becoming your best friend, it's not enough. I mean, yes, there should be attraction, but nobody's perfect physically, and if a girl is physically active, doing what she can to keep in shape, and just happens to be tall and maybe a little big-boned... I'm looking at the recent couples in my ward, and they all involve girls who are tiny. Good for those girls, but come on.
I can't help but think that in a recent case or two, that's what it was--I'm simply not attractive enough to these particular guys, despite how we connected on every other level. What's up with that?
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On the one hand, you're right, looks aren't everything. And basing major decisions just on looks... well... that's bad.
But in a marriage, physical attraction is important. YOu will, after all, be doing intimate physical things as part of that marriage. And it's unreasonable to expect that someone can be happy in a marriage with someone they don't find attractive.
That said, guys DO need to realize what they find attractive and not be ashamed by it when it violates society's norms. My friend married last summer (he's very tall and extremely skinny) to a girl that he adores and finds physically attractive. She is a heavier woman than you'd expect for many people to describe that way. But that's how he feels, and that's good, because they can make each other happy. (on the other hand, I can see in some ways that their opposite physiques sometimes makes her uncomfortable, and she is constnatly trying to fatten him up, but that's an aspect of physical appearance consequences I didn't mean to get into). He finds her beautiful, and that's all that's necessary (well, and personality compatability, which they have for certain).
There is little use looking at the size of who just got married, since the person they married is obviously attracted to that body type. You can hardly blame him for choosing to date and marry someone attractive to him.
Another example. There was a girl who liked me in Greensboro (Jeffe will remember her). She turned out to be a psycho (no, seriously, after our friendship turned sour she started telling all the YSA's in the whole state, pretty much, what a jerk I was) but at first I thought she was all right. She wasn't a waif, but she was of the smaller body type you mentioned. But she did weird things with her hair and didn't take good care of herself. I found those things to be a huge turn off and it was this that made sure I wouldn't date her. There were larger girls in the area (and back home) who took care of themselves and I was much more interested in dating (and did date a few times).
I guess what I'm saying is that taking care of yourself and looking your best go further than you're giving them credit for. It's hardly a comfort in a time when you want to find a more intimate relationship and can't find one. There's nothing to say about that except that the situation prety much sucks all around. I'm sorry that anyone has to go through wanting and not getting a connection with someone and develop a romance. But the best you can do is the best you can do. Eventually, I think, it will work. When you find someone who likes you back for what you are and finds you attractive as you are, well, you'll be all the happier, because you didn't have to change your or the world's standards for it.
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See, the thing that bugs me about it is that some people think that all it takes is a little exercise--that I'm just lazy. I had lunch with one of these tiny girls the other day and she basically told me to lose 40 lbs and then guys would be more attracted to me. I'm trying to lose weight, for me, because it will make me feel better about myself. I've lost 10 lbs since January. And I completely recognize that you have to have physical attraction in a relationship. It's not the most important thing, but it's up there with all the other connections you need.
BUT! I just feel that too many guys expect perfection. When they're not all that perfect themselves. I know a lot of girls who are willing to date bald guys, overweight guys, guys with bad teeth... but the guys (around here at least) simply don't ask out girls who don't match a certain ideal. It bugs me.
I just don't think I should have to change myself for a guy, just so he'll like me. I'm always trying to improve myself in all sorts of ways--emotional, physical, social, intellectual, etc.--and I look for someone who is doing that, too, and it bugs me that someone looks at me without knowing me and tells me all I need to do is exercise more (which is what a hometeacher told me last summer).
So I'm just ranting. It's not like I wanted any of the guys who are dating the little girls to want to date me instead. Well, except one in particular, and it could just be another reason completely that has nothing to do with my physical appearance, and I'm just trying to come up with some reason why she's so much more appealing than I am. When I'm the one he's so close to, the best friend girl.
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Life is just annoying. Have a cookie.
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/me crunch crunch crunches
Mmm, just what I needed. Thanks!
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dozens of 80s movies about the best friend girl.
anyway, yeah, rant away. I think there's at least a partial explanation for why guys date the "pretty" girl while girls are more open. guys are expected to initiate, so girls have to take what comes. So while both sides may connect on another level, the only thing that can be judged on before a date is initiated is appearances (the point of the date being to get to know people). Since guys start it, they do the picking on appearances, then things proceed or not based on how well the dates go.
Just a partial explanation, keep in mind. It hardly explains why guys don't ask out their good friends. Though that is hardly limited to the male side of things. I can't count the number of single's ward testimonies from girls. I've heard that essentially said "I love my FHE group, they're all like brothers" and not always leaving off the "I could never dating them." In fact, it is such a problem with women that "nice guy" and "sweet" have come to mean the kiss of death for guys. The worst day of my jr. high life was when the bus bully was taking hte piss out of me and a girl stood up for me (which at first might seem ultra really cool on one level) and then proceeded the "why" question with "Because he's sweet." At that moment I knew I would never date a cheerleader in my life. It was very hard for a 13 year old to digest.
It has been best explored, imo, in the weirdest of places, Critical Miss magazine. They start explaining their ape-monkey theory in the Soul Thought (http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue4/soulthought1.html) of issue four, then continue in the same column (http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue5/soulthought1.html) of issue five (warning, they use bad language and brit slang).
Again, none of that makes it any less frustrating. They guys at CM talk about physical relations, but it applies to dating and such as well. It sucks to be the one who's sweet and reliable (and senstive and hang-out-able and fun) and not the one pursued. Both sides could use a dose of reality to see what's going on. It's not a guy problem, it's a humanity problem
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See, the thing that bugs me about it is that some people think that all it takes is a little exercise--that I'm just lazy. I had lunch with one of these tiny girls the other day and she basically told me to lose 40 lbs and then guys would be more attracted to me.
When I say I know how you feel, believe me. Except it was me growing up with a mother who told me things like that. She told me flat out once in high school, "If you don't lose a lot of weight, no one is going to want to date you in college."
My freshman year I went on as many dates as I could just to prove her wrong. I even went out with this one crazy guy who at the end of the date told me, "You known I"ve never been on a date with a girl as big as you before." That was nice. But then he was awfully messed up.
So even though I'm married to a man who finds me beautiful, I still worry about it. I worry sometimes when I've put on some weight - like now, at the end of a hard busy semester - that maybe he doesn't find me as attractive because I weigh more.
These kind of self-esteem problems are hard if not impossible to get rid of forever.
And as for the tiny skinny girls getting married/dates, whatever. I'm sure you remember how that is at BYU. Still drives me nuts. What I hate more than anything is the guys who are 6'6" marrying a short little girl who's 5 feet tall and 99 lbs soaking wet. I dont' *understand* it. It seems to me that it should be one step away from pepophilia to be sexually attracted to someone who's THAT MUCH smaller than you. The jerk that I went on a date with? The one who told me how big I was? He was 28 at the time and told me that what he really preferred was to date 16 year old girls, and he liekd them as skinny as possible.
(*braces for rants*)
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I'm not ranting, I'm just reiterating that women can be just as shallow as men.
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I'm not disagreeing with that.
I was bracing for rants on my 'akin to pedophilia' comment.
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oh, heh. cool.
Yeah, Pedophelia is kind of a scary word. I personally don't take offense, since my wife isn't excessively petite (she's almost as tall as me, and she's the shortest in her family). But I have a friend who might. He's like 6'7 and his wife is like 5'2. She's also the better part of a decade younger. Make of it what you will, but they're great together, and so long as it's legal...
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My freshman year I went on as many dates as I could just to prove her wrong. I even went out with this one crazy guy who at the end of the date told me, "You known I"ve never been on a date with a girl as big as you before."
But... you're really not that big. ??? It's this whole image of what women should be, as opposed to real women. And SE, I know you're right--women can be just as shallow as men. So maybe my rant is about shallow people in general.
So even though I'm married to a man who finds me beautiful, I still worry about it. I worry sometimes when I've put on some weight - like now, at the end of a hard busy semester - that maybe he doesn't find me as attractive because I weigh more.
I find that to be true when I'm in a relationship, too. But I also find that I generally lose weight when in a relationship because I don't worry about food=comfort as much. I'm more confident because I feel loved. And I know that's a problem, because I should feel confident even when the whole world hates me or something, but it's a natural feeling that many girls have. So it's something you have to fight a lot.
What I hate more than anything is the guys who are 6'6" marrying a short little girl who's 5 feet tall and 99 lbs soaking wet. I dont' *understand* it.
I know exactly what you mean. I joke about it, but there seems to be some kernel of truth in how it seems to be Darwinian: the tall guys go for the tiny girls, leaving short guys in their late 20s/early 30s in the singles wards out here. Many of the guys I know are between 5'7" and 5'10". A few are taller, and a few are much taller. But the ones I find interesting tend toward the 5'10" range. At least it's still a couple inches taller than me. :-/ See, I'm shallow too. I want a guy who's taller than me, so I don't feel like Amazon woman who can throw him over my shoulder. But I like to think that's different. ;D
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I would have to say that men have been trained to go after a certain type of women. It bugs me a lot. Part of it is how it has trained men to treat women.
I have a few cousins that could easily be super-models, though none of them want to be. So I used to think that they were just normal girls who struggled to get dates like all girls. Not so. What disgusts me is that one of my cousins said she tried to only go on one date per day (her record was 7 in a day). Now she is returning from her LDS service mission in Guatamala next week and she already has three marriage proposals. It surprises me that men would be that shallow. I feel for my cousins having to put up with lewd sexual comments and worst, but I kind of also think they need to quit dating guys who are 7 or 8 years older than they, quit wasting their time entertaining losers who are only interested in their looks and try to do more with their lives than just playing sports and dating. So does looking good simply breed a certain degree of shallowness? Or am I just envious?
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heh, some guys WANT an amazon...
Anyway, i have to bring this one up too. My sisters-in-law drive me NUTS. I've tried introducing them to a couple of my friends. Guys who are REALLY nice and smart. I'm hardly a judge, but I think they're all right looking. Doesn't hurt me to look at 'em, anyway. My wife agrees and encourages this. But the first fricking question out of their mouth is ALWAYS, with NO EXCEPTIONS "how tall is he?" Now I understand, they're tall girls. One's taller than me. Like I said, my wife's the shortest at 5'10". But no, they don't ask how smart he is, what his interests are. It frustrates me to no end. I'm trying to help them be happy and they want a guy who can reach higher. YEah, that's the key to happiness.
*huff* *huff* Sorry, lost control there. We're all in agreement, I think. Just ranting.
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Stacer: interesting things about the height. J.T.'s only about an inch taller than I am. We really are essentially the same height. When I brought him home for the first time, after he left, the first thing my mom said was, "None of those Kauffman boys are very tall, are they?"
His little brother Matt is the tallest in the family, and he's only 5'10" or so.
But then she's 5'2" and married my father who is 6'2". *throws hands up* People. Who knows?
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I don't think it "breeds shallowness" or that you're "just envious" 42. Maybe a little bit of both. But I think the shallowness comes more from how they're treated than an innate feature of their looks.
If society is teaching men to treat women some way, then it's also teaching women to be treated that way. Something I don't think you'll disagree with. In the end, both genders are hurt by certain types of behavior. However, I think it's more a factor of us being willing to believe that the way society is structured is perfect, rather than being skeptical and thinking things can change.
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Well, height does seem to be an issue for a lot of women. My big-sister is only 5'2" and is married to a guy who is 6'2" (course my big sister was kind of heavy when she got married before she started losing it all in child-birth). My twin is 6'1" and married to a girl who 5'0". Course my other brothers are all married to or marrying girls that are all 5"7" or taller. My one brother fiance is his same height at 5'10".
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I think our frustration comes in the fact that we feel that how tall a person is shoudln't be a factor in whether they're attractive or not... but apparently it is. And for some people, (like with your sisters-in-law) it's a BIG factor.
And perhaps the confusing standard, (which I freely admit exists) of men wanting women smaller than they are, and women wanted men larger than they are.
With taller women, especially, I totally understand how it was. I hit puberty a lot sooner than most of my classmates, so I spent about 3-4 years being taller than everyone else my age. SO even though I'm only of average height, I think of myself as being large/tall a lot of the time. It's a very very awkward feeling, and the last thing you want is to date a guy who, just by his presence, makes you feel like you're huge.
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I like taller women. I dunno, height doesn't really matter much to me. She could be 3' tall or 9' tall, it wouldn't matter to me. I like the ladies that will give me the time of day and interest me in themselves overall.
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I hate it that guys are expected to be big. I'm about average height, but used to be really skinny. In high school I always felt like I was weak because I was 6'0" and weighed a 125 lbs. The people in my family, including my cousins, all tend to be thin, which is great for the women but just sucks for the men.
So now that I'm just over 200 lbs, I still feel like I'm a small guy. It doesn't help my self-confidence at all.
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See, Gemm's so practical.
As long as I'm not worried about being politically correct, (and when am I ever) if people married people closer to their own height I bet there'd be less domestic violence.
I know my mother in law is sometimes afraid of my father in law. If my husband ever tried to be physically violent toward me, though? I could hold my own against him, if not beat him up outright.
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See, I'm also very practical. You can tell your sister that too 42. =P
Thanks Fuzzy.
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The thought of Gemm breeding scares me.
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You want scary? (And sorry for the small diversion) Think of a truck going out to the farm, landing in a saucer, finding out it's son, the goat, had run away with the stalks of corn. Not just one mind you. And all the truck had wanted was a small piece of pie from the barn.
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yeah, you're right. that is scary. The truck is the father of goats that ran away with produce?
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I think our frustration comes in the fact that we feel that how tall a person is shouldn’t be a factor in whether they're attractive or not... but apparently it is. And for some people, (like with your sisters-in-law) it's a BIG factor.
Huh? You're saying a physical attribute shouldn't be a factor in attraction? I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this statement. Physical characteristics--whether it be features, build, or height, have always been a major part of attraction. They always will be. These things simply make a difference. If I see an actress in a movie with blonde hair, then see the same actress with dark hair in another movie, I will find her more attractive in the dark haired situation.
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EUOL, you have this gift for taking everything I say the wrong way, or taking them to an extreme I don't mean.
I'm not saying that it shouldn't be a factor. What I SAID was that I FEEL that sometimes it shouldn't be a factor.
I'm saying that it seems strange TO ME that it's sometimes a MAJOR factor. "Wow that girl would be really hot if she weren't so tall." That seems weird. Shouldn't beautiful be beautiful no matter what the height?
</statement on human nature>
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It's tricky, because height really does make a difference to me. I just can't seem to be attracted to men that are shorter than me. Same height, okay, but the taller the better. But I'm pretty tall. I have a friend here--a girl--who's 6'4" and she doesn't really want a guy who's taller, but she would like one who is in her general range. Maybe it's imprinted in us genetically, that whole thing about men having more power than women and height=power. I don't know.
So I was saying kind of the same thing as fuzzy--maybe it shouldn't matter, but it does matter to me, at least to a degree. Not so much that a certain guy who I've become best friends with who's only an inch or two taller than me when I wear flat shoes isn't attractive to me. But it makes me wear flat shoes more often.
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no, i think i have to side with EUOL here. It doesn't make sense that height wouldn't be a factor in physical attractiveness. however, being the first factor of learning about a person... that's like a fetish.
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Who cares about looks, height, or personality. I just want to marry someone who is really rich. And I am quite serious about that, but I'd be happy to explain further if you're offended/curious.
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Join the club. I'm in training to marry a millionaire. Hence my collection of Marilyn Monroe and Lauren Bacall movies.
(But seriously, I am curious.)
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well. that's... refreshing....
go ahead an explain. I'm really hoping it has soemthing to do with plural marriage. You know, marry one for money, one for love, one for beauty, etc.
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Ah, no on plural marriage. There are some things to marriage that I am not willing to compromise about. For example, I would never get a divorce just because we didn't get along or even if my wife cheated on me. If I get married, I plan on it being forever. I would also never be a polygamist. Or lets say my brother died, I would be more than happy to support his wife but I would never marry her or sleep with her.
Anyway, I'd have no problem dating an overweight girl or even a girl from a very poor family (in fact I've done both). I would actually be much more interested in personality or brains than looks. What I'm in fact most interested in would be a wife who wants to be a tradional wife, you know like being at home raising kids and fixing dinner and that type of stuff. But even among mormans that is becoming a very rare thing, and I don't really believe in some list of "requirements" a wife should have. But I have to have some I guess, and money seems like the most practical. I could get along with anyone willing to try, and they'd have to be to marry me in the first place.
What irks me the most is girls who complain about not being able to find a boyfriend/husband because of "blah blah blah" or whatever lame excuse they come up with. There's just so much more to it then any one reason, and there are plenty of men who would go out with said girls despite those reasons. This general comes down to something more along the lines that most of these women try to play coy and think men are supposed to just catch on, like they can read minds or something. This kind of goes back to the whole "looks" thing. I can judge someone's looks just by seeing them, I can't judge their personality without actually knowing them. If there are several girls I am considering asking out on a date, and none of them have shown any interest, who do you think I am going to ask first? Now if one of those girls actually seemed interested, well I would ask her out before one of the others even if they were more pretty.
So basically, if I have to go out hunting more or less, personally I am going to hunt for money since you can judge it as quickly as looks and it gives you so many more options. Just think of all the extra free time it would give you to enjoy life, including time with your spouse. And when you are only looking for money, you have no expectations so anything else is just bonus! ;D
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well, the bit about being interested is a great comment. I can't believe we haven't brought that out yet.
But uh... it's easier to be happy with someone your compatible with. Money is a really poor connector even for people who are primarily interested in it. Why would you make it harder on yourself to keep those goals you have about staying together?
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What irks me the most is girls who complain about not being able to find a boyfriend/husband because of "blah blah blah" or whatever lame excuse they come up with.
I just wanted to state for the record I wasn't implying anyone on the board, the biggest reason being that this is the "rants" board and thus doesn't count IMO. Its a place where you can vent. This would be more in reference to some times this has happened to me. For example, there was this one girl in high school that later ranted to my friend that I wouldn't ask her out. The thing was, I barely had ever even saw this girl, and the only reason I knew who my friend was even talking about is he mentioned this just after we had saw her one day. Like I'm going to ask someone out I've never even talked to. I didn't even have any classes in school with her.
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well, the bit about being interested is a great comment. I can't believe we haven't brought that out yet.
But uh... it's easier to be happy with someone your compatible with. Money is a really poor connector even for people who are primarily interested in it. Why would you make it harder on yourself to keep those goals you have about staying together?
My point is it wouldn't be any harder to find someone I loved who was rich than it would be to find someone I loved who was "pretty and friendly", or "cool and smart", or "wanted a traditional family".
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well, be careful with that. Even though it's the "rants" forum, I think you'll find most people think "it counts." Especially this thread.
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My point is it wouldn't be any harder to find someone I loved who was rich than it would be to find someone I loved who was "pretty and friendly", or "cool and smart", or "wanted a traditional family".
AH, well, that makes sense. I thought you were saying that money was a good criterion for judging a person's worth as a mate. this explanation eases my mind about that.
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well, be careful with that. Even though it's the "rants" forum, I think you'll find most people think "it counts." Especially this thread.
I realised that and thus my second post clarifying.
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What I'm in fact most interested in would be a wife who wants to be a tradional wife, you know like being at home raising kids and fixing dinner and that type of stuff. But even among mormons that is becoming a very rare thing, and I don't really believe in some list of "requirements" a wife should have.
Being at home raising kids: sure, that's great. A goal I have for myself.
Fixing dinner: sure, most of the time, but I think that we've come far enough as a culture to be able to recognize that the household things can be split in non-traditional ways as it fits an individual family. If the guy is better at cooking dinner, let him cook dinner. I have a cousin who cooks for his family every other night (his wife is a stay-at-home mom). I personally am so GLAD that the expectation is becoming a rare thing. Just because it's traditional doesn't mean it's good.
I'm not saying the wife should go out and get a job; I'm just saying that whether she's home all day or not, the wife can't do everything around the house, but maybe her talents lie more along the lines of fixing the plumbing than cooking. So she's the one who fixes things around the house, and the husband cooks, in such a situation. I think we've finally come to a point where each individual family can make those sorts of decisions for themselves and not feel as if they have to fit some mold, and I love that.
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I was bracing for rants on my 'akin to pedophilia' comment.
That dosen't bother me as much as the age problem you get a BYU sometimes. I have this one acuatence that is marrying a guy that's 30, and she's 21. That's a 9 year difference! I actualy went on a blind date with said girl's roomate a little while ago who happens to be 5 years and 3 days younger then me. Nice girl, but the age difference is too much for me and I cannot bring my self to go out with her again for that reason, among a few others.
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That was a bigger deal when I was say, 18 than it would be now. The age difference, imo, becomes less significant as you get older. Now, if peple can ONLY date people that much younger than them, that's a freaky thing.
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9 years is pretty big, but my friend Sam is getting married in April and her intented is 9 years older that she is. Yeah it's a little weird but they're good together.
And my husband is 5 years and 5 days older than me. It's only weird when I talk about things that happened in 1994 or 1995 - I was in 7th or 8th grade, and he was a senior in high school. But we didn't know each other then, so it's not a problem.
So for some of us it's not an issue, but as you've proved, for some people it's a huge drawback.
And I really really have to say that in a lot of cases, it helps to marry a girl who's younger than you are, because women tend to act more mature then men do at comperable ages. So though my husband's got 5 years on me, emotionally we're about the same age. Most of the time.
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I could go about 3 years younger or older, anything beyond that I just feel creapy about it.
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I'd say that's true in your early 20s, but once you get to your late 20s/early 30s, anything goes. Everybody's the same age around here, no matter if you're 25 or 35. My recent "relationship," if you can call it that, was 4 years younger than me. But he's very quiet and mature (and some would even say a fuddy-duddy in some ways), so he matched me. Someone who is the same age as he is (25) and acts much differently wouldn't work as well for me. Neither would a 29-year-old or a 36-year-old who acted like an 18-year-old (and there are plenty of those around too).
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what are you saying about me?
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Yeah, but you're different.
Ah, I knew that Soul Thought article would come in handy.
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lol. Glad to be immature AND off assistance at the same time.
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My brother is marrying someone who is 8 years younger than he. Course, he's 33 and she's 25. My brothers and I that are older that her are trying to figure out how she fits into the family pecking order.
Back to Eagle Prince's comment on a wife who will cook and clean. I think some womens views on house chores being equally divided in the modern age are a little skewed. One of my sister's-in-laws was a strong believer in women not having to be domestic slaves, which in admirable. However, she took it to point where she did very minimal cleaning and cooking, leaving my brother to do most of the cooking and cleaning. And the fact that she wasn't working or going to school really irked me. I'm afraid almost every couple I know of, the domestic work never gets split evenly, but most couples I know seem to work it out anyways without griping.
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I'm not saying it should be split evenly by any means, especially if the wife stays at home. Studies show that even in families that say they want to split the work evenly, the wife is a "gate-keeper" who assigns the husband duties and keeps track of his progress. What I'm saying is that I'm glad that we live in an age in which each family can work it out for themselves based on strengths and weaknesses (say the wife can't cook, bless her heart) (which is not referring to me, as I am a wonderful cook! ;) ).
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My brother is marrying someone who is 8 years younger than he. Course, he's 33 and she's 25. My brothers and I that are older that her are trying to figure out how she fits into the family pecking order.
Oooh yes that can be tricky. I went to school with two of J.T.'s siblings. Kara's a year older than me, and Curt is my age. J.T. had some problems with the idea that his wife was younger than his "baby sister". So for the ease of family relations we've decided that Kara and I are officially the same age, and I'm older than Curt.
Of course this could lead back into an argument on philosophy...
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I just found out that my sister-in-law is pregnant; and all I feel are envy and anger.
I hate myself so much right now.
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You're probably getting all the newlywed comments from family and distant aquaintences, eh? "When are you two going to start a family?" :P Hard not to have those feelings. I get the same way sometimes when a close friend gets married, or even has a date. Not because I want the particular guy, but that for some reason the heavens have smiled on her and not me. It's hard for a little while, and then you remember how much you really are happy for the friend and things are better. Sometimes you have to allow yourself a little bit of mourning, though.
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*sigh*
I don't think it's just that. No one has been bugging us about having kids yet. There are a few factors though:
1.) We got married first. They only got married in November.
2.) I'd make one hell of a better mother than she would right now. This is the girl who last year was in an institution for her anorexia and bulemia. This is the girl who two or three months ago was rushed to the hospital because her husband found her standing in the bathroom with a handfull of pills after they had an argument.
3.) She was on birth control too; that makes two people I know closely who weren't planning to have babies yet but got pregnant anyway. And all I think is, "Why her and not me? Why in the HELL does God think she should have a baby right now?"
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oh, megan. I wish I knew what to say. i assume you don't really hate your sis-in-law, so I think it's ok that you feel this way, as long as you don't act on them. We care about you, though. You're good people.
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No, I dont hate her. I'm just .... hurt. And I feel like I have no reason to be.
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Well, you do have a reason to be, though probably her situation is more a trigger than a reason. It's coming from a deeper place, probably. Don't you think?
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Well, if it's any consolation, if your sister-in-law was anorexic or bulemic she probably has a rough pregnacy ahead of her. My sister-in-law who was anorexic had a lot of diffulculty carrying her child with her first pregnacy and has miscarried since then. Eating disorders just do a lot of damage.
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You don't need to hate yourself--it's a natural reaction, if not a fun one. If you need to talk, please call me.
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Right. I was waiting at the doctor last week, browsing through various health related leaflets when one caught my eye.
I did a few internet searches on the subject, and now I'm pretty sure I have this "Social Phobia" thing. Looking at various lists of symptoms, most of them to some degree are describing me exactly.
No wonder it takes me three years to make friends.
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didn't take you that long with most of us.
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so have you followed up with another visit explainging your concerns?
Or are you just playing MD and Psychiatrist.
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Yeah, but I don't know you IRL. It takes me that long in this situation.
And yes, I'm playing MD and Psychiatrist. I read a few things on it, those things pretty much described me. That's as far as I care about the matter.
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Well, from what I know social anxiety is really, really common. It's not really considered a serious medical condition unless it's in conjuction with some other emotional disorders. But if you think you might have it, I would suggest finding a good self-help book on the subject before you invest in a doctor or therapy or anything like that. It's a lot less expensive that way, plus a self-help book is less likely to screw you up more. Now if your social anxiety becomes so bad that you can't go 30 feet away from your bed, then you probably need some medical help.
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42, that's exactly what my thoughts were. I don't have anything serious, it's just a pain to make a phone call, buy something from a shop, wait for a bus, or talk to a stranger, I can still do it, I just go into adenalin rush mode sometimes during that sort of situation. Mostly I was interested and thought it bears mention becuase I thought I was the only one who did these things.
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It's not really considered a serious medical condition unless it's in conjuction with some other emotional disorders
What I've heard is that it's a 'disorder' if it impairs your ability to function in society. I think that's a pretty good rule of thumb.
But, I'm also a big proponant of understanding what makes you tick so that you can better cope with reality. The more you can realistically come to understand how your emotions are produced, the better off you will be.
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I'm still upset.
I just got off the phone with my mom, who was talking with me about it, but not actually helping any.
Then I sit down and turn on the TV to find that Steel Magnolias is on, and Julia Roberts is trying to explain to her mother why she wants to have a baby.
ha ha.
Somebody has a really sick sense of humor.
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What I've heard is that it's a 'disorder' if it impairs your ability to function in society. I think that's a pretty good rule of thumb.
"function in sciety" is probably not the best definition. Most therapist and psychologist and developementalist and educatators that I've worked with define it as impairing your ability to function socially or personally. So the definition is a little broader. If something is making you miserable, you have the right to work on making it better even if it's not impairing how you function in society. Degrading yourself to how society percieves you could be hurtful, particularly if you haven't done anything wrong.
Also, you will never be able to understand everything about how you tick in this lifetime, so just pick aspects you think you can figure out and go from there. And remember that some weakness and challenges in your personality are just given to you to deal with through no fault of your own. Probably because you can overcome it where others could not.
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So does anyone have any suggestions on how to control sudden violent impulses? I've been getting them a lot lately. It's kind of odd because I almost never get angry at anything.
I'm thinking this might be because I'm on less medication than I should be. Mostly because I'm poor and can't afford it anymore. Suggestion as to what I can do before the voices in my head start telling me to go on a homocidal killing spree?
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getting active sometimes helps, like running, or swimming or beating the heck out of something... my suggestion, find a place where you can whack a few golf balls. Its very satisfying, and you can knock the heck out of em.
failing that , or if your poor, I suggest heavy labor, lifting sawing or digging.
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I'd suggest beating up something that doesn't mind. I find that can help. If you just go crazy (pardon the expression) and beat up a pillow or punching bag or a wall (if you don't mind breaking the wall and/or your hand bones) for ten minutes, I don't think you'd feel like hitting anything else for the rest of the day.
My other suggestion would be zen type meditation or similar. I used to have a really short temper, and now I'm rather patient and can be slow to anger. I kinda taught myself how to be patient by, for example, just spending an hour in a nice garden type place for no reason at all with nothing external to entertain me. Basically it worked, it isn't often I want to hit something nowadays (except during Kempo, but that's the point)
So yeah, do something physical to get it out of your system, or do something peaceful to stop it from ever entering your system.
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So I've been told my grandfather has one to two weeks left to live. He's had several strokes and currently is fighting am infection and a broken pelvis. So how do people handle something like this?
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My husband's grandmother died about 2 weeks ago. She was his last grandparent and very very close to him.
He dealt with it by buying Transformers.
*shrug*
I don't think that will help you in particular, but perhaps reconnecting with a part of your childhood in some way.
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So my grandfather passed away a little before 11 am this morning. I'm actually kind of releaved being that the last few days (weeks, months, years) have been very hard on him.
I've realized through this ordeal that I'm not really afraid of death at all. I'm afraid of a lot of other stuff, but not death.
I also realize that dying quickly is preferable to dying slowly. At least in my opinion. The waiting for my grandpa to die when there was nothing anyone could do, was just agonizing. I'm now anxious for my grandpa's funeral so I can have a resolution of sorts.
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Do you want to talk about it, or just want someone to listen? Sorry if I am breaking some rule, I know I am not normally here, and you don't know me very well, but sometimes the best people to talk to are perfect strangers. I just figured since the people you normally talk to on here arent on you might need someone else to listen.
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Actually, I'm doing okay. I'm just anxious for things to get resolved. LIke the funeral and making sure my grandma is okay. Like I said, death doesn't really scare me. I know my grandpa is doing fine now and I'll see him again someday.
So I'm just kind of posting for the sake of posting some of this stuff.
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I had a teacher tell me about when she was in the hospital with her husband when he died. She said that actually watching him die, it was peaceful and comforting to her. She said that it would help people to see someone die naturally, it really helped her to realize that it was a natural process and although it is very sad, it doesnt have to be something to be afraid of.
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Sorry 42
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I found my grandpa's obituary online.
http://www.legacy.com/heraldextra/LegacySubPage2.asp?Page=LifeStory&PersonId=2487580
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Were you close to him? I, faintly, remember when my grandfathers died. Quite some time ago now.
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When I was little and my family came to visit, he's take me and my brothers fishing or swimming or flying in planes. I have a lot of memories of doing stuff with my grandpa when I was little. The past several years I have a lot of memories of just assisting in helping him and my grandma after his stroke. For having a large family, we're all pretty close.
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My family is the opposite. AFAIK, I have a grand total of 5 relatives on my scottish side. Almost certainly I have more, but we simply never contact or know them. On the Irish side there is about a dozen or so relatives, who we see very occasionally. Some we see all the time, some I have never met.
Oh and all my grandparents are dead. 2 died before I was even born, another one died when I was 4. *shrug*