Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: shadow9d9 on July 18, 2009, 01:00:35 AM
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I just finished reading the Mistborn trilogy back to back. I keep a log of the books I have read and their score out of 5. Nothing has ever gotten a 5, and everything 4 and above is a solid "recommend" from me. I plan to forward this to Sanderson as feedback. I will try to avoid spoilers.
I'll start by saying that I really enjoyed the series. I rated them-
Mistborn- 4.35
The Well of Ascension- 4.05
Hero of the Ages- 3.75
Mistborn was the best of the 3 by far. Interesting world, unique races, fun characters, unique magic-like system, well paced, plenty of unexpected twists, and just the right amount of description. The ending was decent as well. Very good.
The Well of Ascension suffered from some problems. First, the pacing was not as brisk as the first book, and often became bogged down in characters reminiscing or thinking over the same ideas/reflections over and over. I do not need to hear for the 15th time how it is difficult to be king. The first 14 were plenty. Less reiterating please. It gets redundant.
I could understand some mild refreshers of the story at the beginning. Time might have elapsed between reading the books. It had the effect of ripping you out of the moment. The story would stop cold for a refresher paragraph on very obvious points from the first book. Maybe this would have been ok if it was during the first 20 pages, but even 400-600 pagesin, random paragraphs would continue to repeat tidbits from the first book! Very jarring, took you out of the moment(as mentioned), wasn't subtle, and was honestly a bit condescending to an intelligent reader.
The book did have interesting twists and revelation, with an ok ending.
The third book was the least satisfying, with much more downtime where characters kept thinking the same thoughts over and over and over(Sazed, Elend, Vin, Spook).
The book continued to randomly insert refresher paragraphs that just ripped me out of the story to tell me something I already knew from the first book and the reminders in the second book. I mean, come on now. 500+ pages into the final book in a series the writer should not be repeating the basics from book 1! Have enough respect for the reader, please!
With these 2 issues, the pacing and plot suffered. The book also suffered from what many books suffer from, how to satisfyingly end a trilogy. The ending has a rushed feel. Too much of little significance occurs, the scope attempts to be grand, but ends up being obvious, too wordy, and a little preachy.
Endings are very hard to pull off, and is decent enough for a first outing.
Despite dwelling on some negatives, I enjoyed the books overall and will be reading more Sanderson books in the future.
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Review of OP's review 1 out of 1o.
FAIL!
mistborn gets a solid 4.9 of 5
WoA 4.2
HoA 4.99
Best series ending I've yet read.
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Sounds like all you liked doing was focusing what you thought was bad in the books. This instantly brands a fail on your review. If you think stuff is getting repeated too much and you didn't like it, stop reading, don't come and complain to people about it. Also, the first book is called 'The Final Empire', not Mistborn. That's the title for the whole trilogy.
Mistborn is by far the best Trilogy I've read in a long time.
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Some people don't like to aim any criticism at what they love. I criticize what I love the most, because I love it the most. I never understood the refusal of people to look critically of what they love... it is like they are afraid to admit any faults for fear of breaking some fragile perfection that they have created in their head.
If the author or any creative person surrounds themselves by people who refuse to give constructive criticism and rate everything a perfect score, the person will never improve. Look at Geroge Lucas in the extras of the newer trilogy. The heads thought everything he did was pure gold and worshiped him.
As for the ending. It was way too perfect and happy...obvious too. The author was trying to do too much at once right near the end. TIt felt forced and unnecessary. Too much time was spent on infodumping and preaching.
Again, if you felt it was appropriate to continue to remind readers about what happened in the first book, even into the 500+ page mark of the 3rd book, then you are so wrapped up with your love for the author that your blinders are on.
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Personally I have no problem at all with someone reviewing an author's work critically. I think the difficulty comes when you begin to "critique" it unsolicited. While I'm sure Brandon would love feedback its hard for him to honestly accept your critique without either knowing you personally or your credentials. Are you a published author or reviewer? In other words, what makes you more qualified than the average Joe?
Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Welcome to these forums and I hope you enjoy your stay!
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Personally I have no problem at all with someone reviewing an author's work critically. I think the difficulty comes when you begin to "critique" it unsolicited. While I'm sure Brandon would love feedback its hard for him to honestly accept your critique without either knowing you personally or your credentials. Are you a published author or reviewer? In other words, what makes you more qualified than the average Joe?
Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Welcome to these forums and I hope you enjoy your stay!
I think that some of the OPs critiques were valid, but I had problems reading it because of the tone of the critique.
Example:
First, the pacing was not as brisk as the first book, and often became bogged down in characters reminiscing or thinking over the same ideas/reflections over and over. I do not need to hear for the 15th time how it is difficult to be king. The first 14 were plenty. Less reiterating please. It gets redundant.
I think the author of the critique thinks the underlined section was "cute." It wasn't, and it does a great job in discrediting due to the fact that it's repetitive. (Irony, anyone?)
This wasn't the only problem I had with the critique, but I don't have the time, and would rather avoid pointing everything out.
Meh, and now I feel bad.
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"I think the difficulty comes when you begin to "critique" it unsolicited. While I'm sure Brandon would love feedback its hard for him to honestly accept your critique without either knowing you personally or your credentials."
You need credentials to have valid opinions? If the problems presented are indeed there, wouldn't that validate itself?
First, you say that it is unsolicited. In fact it isn't. There is an option in his email system for feedback. Second, you suggest ignoring suggestions, regardless of validity, because I'm not known personally or have 'credentials'.
So, according to you: He reads and says "that makes sense" and then says to himself, "well, even though it makes sense, I should probably ignore it because I don't know him personally!" Seriously?
I get that people don't like criticism of their love interests, but the posturing here is juvenile and a little pathetic. Not ONCE has someone actually addressed any of my points. Just more of the typical attack the messenger and not the message.
He could do whatever he wants with the feedback. If in his next trilogy/series, he insists on littering the books with constant reminders of obvious story points, I'll simply stop buying his books. If enough people are turned off by it, they will do the same. If that is what is desired, he can safely ignore the feedback of his readers.
The criticisms were made because I really enjoyed the series, despite it getting progressively worse. I sincerely hope Mr. Sanderson takes some of the complaints in mind. He is just shy of greatness, which is a lot to be said for a very first trilogy. Who knows... maybe the editors are to blame for adding in the constant reminders. I've never encountered a series with such problems before. It is very easily corrected.
"It wasn't, and it does a great job in discrediting due to the fact that it's repetitive. (Irony, anyone?) "
It isn't irony when it is intentional. You don't like me repeating the same thing in 3 paragraphs, but you don't mind the 20+ paragraphs of constant obvious reminders being repeated throughout the trilogy?
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Well, there's how you overwhelmingly concentrated on the things you considered negative. That kind of cherry picking can make anything seem to be bad. If you had balanced your review with things you thought Sanderson had done right in WoA and HoA, then you would probably be getting a much better reception.
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The Well of Ascension suffered from some problems. First, the pacing was not as brisk as the first book, and often became bogged down in characters reminiscing or thinking over the same ideas/reflections over and over. I do not need to hear for the 15th time how it is difficult to be king. The first 14 were plenty. Less reiterating please. It gets redundant.
That... really does not at all match what I remember. Some characters may have thought about certain things several times, but it was not just mindlessly rehashing the same things over and over. Characters develop and learn, and showing that requires showing how their views and thoughts change. It's been a while since I've read the book, but what I remember of the "tough to be king" stuff is not redundant repetition - it's showing Elend getting frustrated, and then Elend learning and improving.
I could understand some mild refreshers of the story at the beginning. Time might have elapsed between reading the books. It had the effect of ripping you out of the moment. The story would stop cold for a refresher paragraph on very obvious points from the first book. Maybe this would have been ok if it was during the first 20 pages, but even 400-600 pagesin, random paragraphs would continue to repeat tidbits from the first book! Very jarring, took you out of the moment(as mentioned), wasn't subtle, and was honestly a bit condescending to an intelligent reader.
Got any examples? Beyond early refreshers on the magic systems and such, I did not notice any such phenomenon. And before you ask, I am very intelligent and have an excellent memory.
The book did have interesting twists and revelation, with an ok ending.
I'll grant the ending may have been a little weak, but mainly because it was so focused on setting up book 3.
The third book was the least satisfying, with much more downtime where characters kept thinking the same thoughts over and over and over(Sazed, Elend, Vin, Spook).
The book continued to randomly insert refresher paragraphs that just ripped me out of the story to tell me something I already knew from the first book and the reminders in the second book. I mean, come on now. 500+ pages into the final book in a series the writer should not be repeating the basics from book 1! Have enough respect for the reader, please!
Again, examples?
With these 2 issues, the pacing and plot suffered. The book also suffered from what many books suffer from, how to satisfyingly end a trilogy. The ending has a rushed feel. Too much of little significance occurs, the scope attempts to be grand, but ends up being obvious, too wordy, and a little preachy.
??? What, exactly, got more than a passing mention in the ending and was "of little significance"? As for it being obvious, the mountains upon mountains of speculation and debate about it in these forums and elsewhere contradict you pretty thoroughly. It may seem "obvious" in hindsight, but it took plenty of people by surprise. As for wordiness and preachiness, I think you may be a little overly sensitive there.
As for the ending. It was way too perfect and happy...obvious too. The author was trying to do too much at once right near the end. TIt felt forced and unnecessary. Too much time was spent on infodumping and preaching.
Did the deaths of Elend, Vin, and large portions of the human race mean nothing to you that you think it was "perfect" and "too happy"?
Ruin's defeat and the restoration of the world to normal were pretty obvious, yes, but that's an inevitable consequence of the near universality of Good winning in the end in modern fantasy. You don't read a series like Mistborn to find out if Ruin gets beaten, you read it to find out how he gets beaten and what happens to everyone else. Vin's suicide and Sazed ending up with both powers were major surprises for most readers, and then there's the Atium-burning army, the true purpose of the Lord Ruler's storage caches disaster shelters, etc. If you think it was all obvious, either you are thinking with too much hindsight or you are improbably good at recognizing and correctly interpreting foreshadowing.
Again, if you felt it was appropriate to continue to remind readers about what happened in the first book, even into the 500+ page mark of the 3rd book, then you are so wrapped up with your love for the author that your blinders are on.
Again, examples?
I get that people don't like criticism of their love interests, but the posturing here is juvenile and a little pathetic. Not ONCE has someone actually addressed any of my points. Just more of the typical attack the messenger and not the message.
A point. Here's some arguing about the message.
He could do whatever he wants with the feedback. If in his next trilogy/series, he insists on littering the books with constant reminders of obvious story points, I'll simply stop buying his books. If enough people are turned off by it, they will do the same. If that is what is desired, he can safely ignore the feedback of his readers.
You keep mentioning these constant excessive reminders of obvious things, but you have yet to give any specifics, and if any such excessive redundant reminders are present they are well enough disguised and/or woven into the narrative that you are the first and only person I have EVER seen or heard even mention them, much less complain about them.
The criticisms were made because I really enjoyed the series, despite it getting progressively worse.
You are very much in the minority with that opinion. I, and most of the other people here, think it got progressively better.
I sincerely hope Mr. Sanderson takes some of the complaints in mind. He is just shy of greatness, which is a lot to be said for a very first trilogy. Who knows... maybe the editors are to blame for adding in the constant reminders. I've never encountered a series with such problems before. It is very easily corrected.
And again... Nah, I've said it enough already.
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Well, there's how you overwhelmingly concentrated on the things you considered negative. That kind of cherry picking can make anything seem to be bad. If you had balanced your review with things you thought Sanderson had done right in WoA and HoA, then you would probably be getting a much better reception.
Except I highly rated the series and stated "Nothing has ever gotten a 5, and everything 4 and above is a solid "recommend" from me. " Therefore, I still solidly recommended the first 2.
I also stated " Interesting world, unique races, fun characters, unique magic-like system, well paced, plenty of unexpected twists, and just the right amount of description. The ending was decent as well. Very good." Most of this applies to all 3 books.
I thought woa and hoa were not as good and stated why.
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The Well of Ascension suffered from some problems. First, the pacing was not as brisk as the first book, and often became bogged down in characters reminiscing or thinking over the same ideas/reflections over and over. I do not need to hear for the 15th time how it is difficult to be king. The first 14 were plenty. Less reiterating please. It gets redundant.
That... really does not at all match what I remember. Some characters may have thought about certain things several times, but it was not just mindlessly rehashing the same things over and over. Characters develop and learn, and showing that requires showing how their views and thoughts change. It's been a while since I've read the book, but what I remember of the "tough to be king" stuff is not redundant repetition - it's showing Elend getting frustrated, and then Elend learning and improving.
Elend repeating his poor confidence was something he thought over and over for the last 2 books. It became ridiculous by the end. Sorry you don't remember more. Sazed and how he is lost in himself... over and over and over. There was no development until the last 100 pages for Sazed. He just whined the whole book with the exact same thoughts repeated.
I could understand some mild refreshers of the story at the beginning. Time might have elapsed between reading the books. It had the effect of ripping you out of the moment. The story would stop cold for a refresher paragraph on very obvious points from the first book. Maybe this would have been ok if it was during the first 20 pages, but even 400-600 pagesin, random paragraphs would continue to repeat tidbits from the first book! Very jarring, took you out of the moment(as mentioned), wasn't subtle, and was honestly a bit condescending to an intelligent reader.
Got any examples? Beyond early refreshers on the magic systems and such, I did not notice any such phenomenon. And before you ask, I am very intelligent and have an excellent memory.
You want me to go back through 2100 pages and start quoting every paragraph that reminded you- Here is a short list of what was repeated multiple times throughout the second and third books just off the top of my head-
how the lord ruler was killed,
who Vin got her earring from,
how she drew upon the mists,
how allomancy works,
how vin felt at the balls,
what kelsier did-his sacrifice,
what kandra are,
what terrisman are,
what life was like under the lord ruler,
who Vin's brother was,
what happened to vin's brother,
how kelsier survived the pits and snapped,
how vin killed the lord ruler,
how Sazed was pierced through by Marsh,
how marsh turned into an inquisitor,
who left the picture of the flower...
I turned to random pages and checking it out- I did it for about 5 minutes and I came across these 2, which ironically are repeating the same thing 2 books later-
Hero of the Ages- page 106- "Hope is for the foolish..."
Hero of the Ages-page 402-"Reen had died protecting her..." reiterating it again...
hoa- 182- "the book was alendi's logbook..."
HOA-223- "And the walls of course..."
HOA 261- 'They waited"
HOA-265- middle top paragraph- "She felt somewhat..." into the first paragraph "That day..."
HOA 383-"It had been one of Reen's..."
HOA-546- "So Vin did..."
hoa 598- "Somehow, she'd taken..."
Even smaller reminders were annoying-hoa- 222-"Vin crept past the guard post." how many times is this repeated throughout the 3 books? We get it.
Sorry you didn't notice, but I don't see how it could have been overlooked, unless you are used to having things repeated over and over.
With these 2 issues, the pacing and plot suffered. The book also suffered from what many books suffer from, how to satisfyingly end a trilogy. The ending has a rushed feel. Too much of little significance occurs, the scope attempts to be grand, but ends up being obvious, too wordy, and a little preachy.
??? What, exactly, got more than a passing mention in the ending and was "of little significance"? As for it being obvious, the mountains upon mountains of speculation and debate about it in these forums and elsewhere contradict you pretty thoroughly. It may seem "obvious" in hindsight, but it took plenty of people by surprise. As for wordiness and preachiness, I think you may be a little overly sensitive there.
Everything was rushed. Vin fighting and getting ultimate power, the kandra ovethrowing the 1st gen, to be overthrown by the rebels, to be helped by the people.. the 16% getting their powers, then rushing to another cave, to fight and die... It felt forced and unsatisfying to me.
Sazed got the power and made everything perfect. Obvious and too perfect. Everyone who dies is happy in the afterlife, a clear explanation is documented for everyone still alive in a tomb. Just way too perfect and happy.
As for the ending. It was way too perfect and happy...obvious too. The author was trying to do too much at once right near the end. TIt felt forced and unnecessary. Too much time was spent on infodumping and preaching.
Did the deaths of Elend, Vin, and large portions of the human race mean nothing to you that you think it was "perfect" and "too happy"?"
They lived happily in the afterlife.
Ruin's defeat and the restoration of the world to normal were pretty obvious, yes, but that's an inevitable consequence of the near universality of Good winning in the end in modern fantasy. You don't read a series like Mistborn to find out if Ruin gets beaten, you read it to find out how he gets beaten and what happens to everyone else. Vin's suicide and Sazed ending up with both powers were major surprises for most readers, and then there's the Atium-burning army, the true purpose of the Lord Ruler's storage caches disaster shelters, etc. If you think it was all obvious, either you are thinking with too much hindsight or you are improbably good at recognizing and correctly interpreting foreshadowing.
Sorry, as I said. It was standard fantasy fare ending. Happy and perfect restoration. Add in pages of preaching and everyone living happily ever after in the afterlife.
He could do whatever he wants with the feedback. If in his next trilogy/series, he insists on littering the books with constant reminders of obvious story points, I'll simply stop buying his books. If enough people are turned off by it, they will do the same. If that is what is desired, he can safely ignore the feedback of his readers.
You keep mentioning these constant excessive reminders of obvious things, but you have yet to give any specifics, and if any such excessive redundant reminders are present they are well enough disguised and/or woven into the narrative that you are the first and only person I have EVER seen or heard even mention them, much less complain about them.
I'm pretty sure the author and the editor are aware, since they went over the book many times. I am not the first, nor will I be the last. Fan forums are filled with people who are in complete love with a creator and will speak no ill will, or they will get pounced, like this thread.
Quotes from amazon- "with less of the repetitive soul-searching, angst, "
"Too much preaching about the wonders of faith for my tastes. Too much perfect god-like power,...poor pacing and repetition, deux in the machina and an unsatisfying ending."
"There was way too much repetition about where each character came from, their pasts in this book. We know that already. It was if the author was trying to fill the pages but I got so tired of reading the same sentence over and over again every few pages and every chapter."
"It's still amazing work, satisfying because it tied up all the (major) plot threads (while leaving some to dangle with tantalizing promise). But it was so hurried in the end!"
"In a nutshell, those first 400 pages amount to the repetitive documentation of all the angst suffered by the main characters over a variable number of armies sitting outside their walls, political problems, and "who am I" soul-searching."
"The narrative doesn't flow well, mainly because Sanderson interrupts the flow of the story with constant thoughts and feelings from every single POV character. There is a lot of "inner" dialogue going on in their heads, often reflecting on what the narrative has just explained. This results in a somewhat sluggish pace, forcing us to go through a lot of emo crap which serves little purpose in the overall scheme of things. . ."
The criticisms were made because I really enjoyed the series, despite it getting progressively worse.
You are very much in the minority with that opinion. I, and most of the other people here, think it got progressively better.
Being in the minority does not affect the validity of an opinion. Additionally, many, many reviews on amazon pointed to Hero of the Ages as the worst of the 3. Really, do you expect a fan forum to have much open criticism?
Additionally, people in general like to stick with what they are familiar with and are afraid to be critical of what they love. You see this in every genre of every hobby. Unless something is abysmal or shockingly bad, there are always tons more glowing praise and few negative reviews. Look at congress. They overwhelmingly are supported by their own state, yet congress as a whole has a 19% or less approval rating. Everything is great if it is yours.
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OK but you forget the fact that Brandon Rushes almost pretty much everything he writes Elantris, TFE, WoA, HoA, and WarBreaker. its called the Brandon Avalanche, and yes even though he is repepetitive he ties it in to the present. You bring up valid points about the fans loving the work and not being overly critical...but thats whats fans are for they're thier to help increase sells and to promote the books. Fans are pretty much the best PR that can get. In fact its the only PR that you don't buy but actually pays you
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How do think that the same Congresmen/women are voted back in again ;D
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OK but you forget the fact that Brandon Rushes almost pretty much everything he writes Elantris, TFE, WoA, HoA, and WarBreaker. its called the Brandon Avalanche, and yes even though he is repepetitive he ties it in to the present. You bring up valid points about the fans loving the work and not being overly critical...but thats whats fans are for they're thier to help increase sells and to promote the books. Fans are pretty much the best PR that can get. In fact its the only PR that you don't buy but actually pays you
I am still updating the last big post, but I just added this-
"I turned to random pages and checking it out- I did it for about 5 minutes and I came across these 2, which ironically are repeating the same thing 2 books later-
Hero of the Ages- page 106- "Hope is for the foolish..." paragraph
Hero of the Ages-page 402-"Reen had died protecting her..." That paragraph- reiterating it again..."
Remember, he has reread the books multiple times... he even annotated it in on his site. It would be very easy to reduce the amount of repetition.
At first it felt like he was just trying to catch people up to the story in case they forgot, but it continued andgot worse through book 2 and 3. Besides, at the end of the book, he includes recaps of the prior books. Why not just add this to the BEGINNING of the book and remove the repetitive reminders?
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How do think that the same Congresmen/women are voted back in again ;D
That is the point. They are great if they are yours.
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Yeah I see your point about the recaps and stuff but idk its his style of writing i guess...dont forget this is his first series so he's kinda new on how to put stuff together seamlessly, im thinking his writing will defenitely improve in the near future if not oh well im not complaining he still writes excellent books ;D
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Yeah I see your point about the recaps and stuff but idk its his style of writing i guess...dont forget this is his first series so he's kinda new on how to put stuff together seamlessly, im thinking his writing will defenitely improve in the near future if not oh well im not complaining he still writes excellent books ;D
I spent about 10 minutes skimming later bits of Hero of the Ages and just updated my post again with a bunch more quotes.
It is a fairly minor problem that could easily be gotten rid of. I hope his skill continues to improve. If I don't like a book, I don't generally give feedback... it is just that he is so close to greatness that it makes sense to give minor feedback.
I just don't get the kneejerk reaction to valid criticism.
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It happens, sometimes people don't like seeing their hero being put down when i first read your post i kinda freaked to but hey everyones entitiled to their viewpoint and hopefully no violence will come of it;D but i think the biggest reason for the reaction was how out of nowhere BAM you pop up wth this review thats not exactly hailing Sanderson. so some r gonna get their feelings hurt idk people are confusing
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It happens, sometimes people don't like seeing their hero being put down when i first read your post i kinda freaked to but hey everyones wntitiled to their viewpoint and hopefully no violence will come of it;D but i think the biggest reason for the reaction was how out of nowhere BAM you pop up wth this review thats not exactly hailing Sanderson. so some r gonna get their feelings hurt idk people are confusing
People who know me are used to it. i'll be the first one to tell you if a Battlestar Galactica episode is bad, or a Phish song is bad, etc. My favorite trilogy, the Prince of Nothing by Scott Bakker, was followed up by Neuropath, which I felt was fairly poor. It happens. No one is perfect.
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Yep thats what i tell people all the time... this reminds when i didnt give a glowing report on The twilight series. I mean it was well written wtih semi-interesting characters but the plot was so blech it was like reading a vampire soap opera so yeah i know what ure tlking about :)
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Eh. I tried. I think the OP is overreacting, but don't think it's worth the effort to continue the discussion.
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Please, please do not say you just compared Mistborn to Twilight.
OP--I don't think anyone is saying they dislike your opinion. The point is that in the the first post, you said you're critiquing it, and then other than that first paragraph you didn't say anything good about the book. Complete focus on the negative. Sure, you don't critique books that you don't like. I get that. But all good reviews are balanced. They show the good. They show the bad.
I personally thought that HoA was fantastic. I'm almost of mixed feelings about the ending. Not because it was rushed. Because of how sad it was. Vin and Elend died. It doesn't matter if they're "happy in the afterlife." They're still dead. Regardless, I think the fast pace at the end made it all the better. I love it. Sure, it saddens me that they're gone, but I would never want that changed. Before HoA came out, Mistborn was my 2nd favorite trilogy of all time, right behind a trilogy I found a couple years back that I thought would need a lot to beat it. HoA bumped it over. By a large margin.
You complain about the internal ramblings of Elend and Sazed. Elend was learning and growing the entire time, as someone else pointed out, so I don't think his was very repetitious. Each time was slightly better, showing he could handle more and more, so....it was character development.
You might have a case with Sazed, but I found his suffering very emotionally powerful. He's been such a strong character, and now he's lost. Doubting. Depressed. I think his internal thoughts are perfectly relevant. If you've never felt lost like he has--felt depressed to that degree--I don't expect you to understand. But I know about severe depression like that. It's not something you can just put aside, and move on. It stays with you, holding you down. You can't grow until it's gone. And it takes a lot to push past it.
Now, you might now say "He shouldn't have gone to Sazed so much, if that's the case. One time in his head would've been sufficient to get his current state."...Sazed is too big of a character for that kind of treatment, though. I mean, not only is he the Hero of Ages, he's also been so big in the other two books. If he had been given such a little part in this one and then turned out to be so important, it would be too odd. Plus, seeing how much he's grown in the last 100 pages was incredible. He went from lost and extremely depressed, to finding the truth, realizing his purpose, and ultimately saving the world....Simply amazing.
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I would just like to point out one thing (and will more then likely not reply past this, be warned.) Yes, he repeates things, but so do we. I mean, I go to work every day and think "I hope I can keep on track today." And if you were reading my life from day to day, you might find it annoying, but it's true. I read through my journals (just went into my seventh, spanning from when I turned 14 to yesterday (I turned 22 on thursday) so quite a few years) and I repeate the same themes over and over -- "I hope I find someone to love", "I'm annoyed with X (or Y, or Z person)", "This happened at work", "I had this dream". They are all the same thing when you put it like that, and while they might be boring they are basically my life.
So yes, it might be repetitive, but that's because that's how life is. And if nothing else you want your characters to be as real to life as you can, that way your readers can connect with them and can believe what they do.
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Remember that Brandon has to include enough reminders for the people who haven't read the previous book in the last year. Also, foreshadowing has to be sufficient in order for revelations to have enough support when they eventually come out.
A writer cannot please everyone all the time. The end of HoA took a lot of balancing on Brandon's part. If he had gone too far in one direction a lot of a certain type of reader would have hated it. If he had gone too far in a different direction many of those readers would have been pleased but a lot of a different type of reader would have hated it. Instead, by and large the majority of readers were pleased with the ending and that's about the best Brandon could have hoped for.
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Elend repeating his poor confidence was something he thought over and over for the last 2 books. It became ridiculous by the end. Sorry you don't remember more.
From what I remember, he grew increasingly more confident throughout both books. It got set back a bit at the start of HoA due to him suddenly being a Mistborn, but at the same time was more targeted on things related specifically to that.
Sazed and how he is lost in himself... over and over and over. There was no development until the last 100 pages for Sazed. He just whined the whole book with the exact same thoughts repeated.
I'll grant you that one, but I think it was required to properly set up his development. Without repeating some of his thoughts about religion and faith, it seems to me the development at the end would be perceived as not important, coming from nowhere, or not a major change.
I turned to random pages and checking it out- I did it for about 5 minutes and I came across these 2, which ironically are repeating the same thing 2 books later-
Hero of the Ages- page 106- "Hope is for the foolish..." paragraph
Hero of the Ages-page 402-"Reen had died protecting her..." That paragraph- reiterating it again...
Thank you.
I couldn't find the second one, but I found the first on page 94 of the hardcover. If you give any more text references, please include the chapter number and approximate location within the chapter (this one's on page 3 of chapter 12, in case anyone else wants to look it up).
If that is a good representative of what you're complaining about, I wouldn't say I'm "used to it" but it strikes me as far more minor and less jarring of an interruption than you're making it out to be. I see your point about the rest of the paragraph (the line from Reen's voice itself is another matter, but I don't think that's being argued), and I agree it could be done better. Some of that paragraph is a summary of a major plot element that any reader of the first book could hardly miss, and the whole thing could use a style overhaul and shortening. Still, it is a single not particularly long paragraph describing what the current point of view character is thinking about. It could be done better and with less recapping, but I don't think it's really that bad.
I was going to reply in more detail individually to your list, but if all your complaints are like that paragraph then your entire list could be perfectly accurate and I probably wouldn't remember any of it because that kind of summary/recap on that scale in that manner just doesn't jump out at me, especially when it's always immediately tied in to the current story. Yes, it's summarizing or repeating things we already know, but it's always brief and always closely related to what's going on right now.
Everything was rushed. Vin fighting and getting ultimate power, the kandra ovethrowing the 1st gen, to be overthrown by the rebels, to be helped by the people.. the 16% getting their powers, then rushing to another cave, to fight and die... It felt forced and unsatisfying to me.
This is an acknowledged problem, to the point where it's got a proper noun attached to it that even the author uses. I'm given to understand that the Brandon Avalanche has gotten much less severe as he's gotten more experience - I hear you should request the single copy of Dragonsteel from BYU's library on inter library loan if you want to see how it used to be (just be patient, it's ILL and there's only one copy available anywhere) - and presumably this trend will continue. Even so, having lots of stuff happen quickly is an inherent part of having a climax in the story at all, so I don't regard it as a purely bad thing.
Sazed got the power and made everything perfect. Obvious and too perfect. Everyone who dies is happy in the afterlife, a clear explanation is documented for everyone still alive in a tomb. Just way too perfect and happy.
The two main characters who die are content in the afterlife, but I'm pretty sure they'd still prefer to be alive and I'm quite certain Spook and several other major characters would prefer it that way too. I'm also pretty sure most of the other people who died, you know, the hordes of nameless soldiers and civilians, are a bit unhappy about it.
The world itself is fixed and everything's explained to the survivors, but civilization in general is still pretty well trashed. All cities are gone, total population is drastically reduced, all infrastructure is destroyed, etc. Having nothing but an initial population and some starting supplies in an unfamiliar world is hardly "perfect" in my opinion, even if that unfamiliar world is a lot more friendly and survivable than it used to be.
Sorry, as I said. It was standard fantasy fare ending. Happy and perfect restoration. Add in pages of preaching and everyone living happily ever after in the afterlife.
I just reread the ending, and I'm really not getting a preachy feel from it. I can sort of see how it might be possible to interpret the page or two about religions, experience, and having guides that way, but that section strikes me far more as just explaining how Sazed can fix the world so well despite having no more experience at it than the Lord Ruler did when he messed everything up. Two specific characters are "living happily ever after in the afterlife", but that doesn't automatically generalize to the countless others that died over the course of the series.
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I would just like to point out one thing (and will more then likely not reply past this, be warned.) Yes, he repeates things, but so do we. I mean, I go to work every day and think "I hope I can keep on track today." And if you were reading my life from day to day, you might find it annoying, but it's true. I read through my journals (just went into my seventh, spanning from when I turned 14 to yesterday (I turned 22 on thursday) so quite a few years) and I repeate the same themes over and over -- "I hope I find someone to love", "I'm annoyed with X (or Y, or Z person)", "This happened at work", "I had this dream". They are all the same thing when you put it like that, and while they might be boring they are basically my life.
So yes, it might be repetitive, but that's because that's how life is. And if nothing else you want your characters to be as real to life as you can, that way your readers can connect with them and can believe what they do.
There is confusion here. There are 2 points.
The main point is that he kept repeating past information already known by the reader. In my paged examples, Vin's past experiences, etc. He is reminding you of something you already read, as if you were so dumb that you wouldn't remember it. And it didn't just happen once. It happened over and over.
2nd and less minor, I happened to find the 'this is hard being king' and 'no religion is true' thoughts a bit repetitive and boring. I felt it became padding or attempted depth.
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Remember that Brandon has to include enough reminders for the people who haven't read the previous book in the last year. Also, foreshadowing has to be sufficient in order for revelations to have enough support when they eventually come out.
A writer cannot please everyone all the time. The end of HoA took a lot of balancing on Brandon's part. If he had gone too far in one direction a lot of a certain type of reader would have hated it. If he had gone too far in a different direction many of those readers would have been pleased but a lot of a different type of reader would have hated it. Instead, by and large the majority of readers were pleased with the ending and that's about the best Brandon could have hoped for.
First of all, you don't HAVE to remind readers.
2nd, at the END of the book are summaries of events from previous books. If you want reminders, place that first.
3rd. He "reminded" multiple times in each book!
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Thank you.
I couldn't find the second one, but I found the first on page 94 of the hardcover. If you give any more text references, please include the chapter number and approximate location within the chapter (this one's on page 3 of chapter 12, in case anyone else wants to look it up).
Keep in mind the page numbers were taken out of the mass market paperback.
Here is the full list that I found in 10 minutes of skimming (in case you missed it when I went back and re-edited)-
Hero of the Ages- page 106- "Hope is for the foolish..."
Hero of the Ages-page 402-"Reen had died protecting her..." reiterating it again...
hoa- 182- "the book was alendi's logbook..."
HOA-223- "And the walls of course..."
HOA 261- 'They waited"
HOA-265- middle top paragraph- "She felt somewhat..." into the first paragraph "That day..."
HOA 383-"It had been one of Reen's..."
HOA-546- "So Vin did..."
hoa 598- "Somehow, she'd taken..."
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Eh. I tried. I think the OP is overreacting, but don't think it's worth the effort to continue the discussion.
Why should something not be improved if given the chance?
Why would feedback be unimportant because some people don't agree with it?
How is sending feedback overreacting? I even gave quoted examples of him repeating past events in the same book.. some within a few pages of each other!
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"The point is that in the the first post, you said you're critiquing it, and then other than that first paragraph you didn't say anything good about the book. Complete focus on the negative. Sure, you don't critique books that you don't like. I get that. But all good reviews are balanced."
Perhaps I should have worded the title: "My critique."
My post is meant as feedback, which requires mention of the negatives first and foremost.
I thought I had given enough positives by mentioning that 2 were in my solid recommend categories and then I listed all the wonderful things about the first book, most of which extended to the whole trilogy.
If you saw my scores in the context of all of my scores for every book I've read, you would see that they are ranked fairly well, with the exception of the 3rd.
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Brandon's podcast, Writing Excuses, has an episode about writing groups and critiquing. In it, he and his co-hosts agree that critiques that contain only criticism are only marginally useful, as well as being hard on an author's fragile ego.
A manufacturer is glad to have succinct reviews of how their product has failed or not met expectations. The designer of that product would not appreciate a random person that got hold of the blueprints telling them without preamble why the product will not work. If you have enough credentials, they will take your advice. If you don't, they will be offended.
The bottom line is that everyone likes to be complemented, and unless you're talking to a very good friend you have to butter people up before criticizing them if you don't want them to get indignant on you. Even then, if you value your friendship you'll probably soften the blow a bit. Use courtesy, politeness, and civility. Even (especially) in text. I'm not saying that your review should be 4/5 praise if that's the rating you gave. A little bit goes a long way, and people usually assume that anyone who starts out by complementing them is alright. But you know all of this already. Carry on.
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Brandon's podcast, Writing Excuses, has an episode about writing groups and critiquing. In it, he and his co-hosts agree that critiques that contain only criticism are only marginally useful, as well as being hard on an author's fragile ego.
A manufacturer is glad to have succinct reviews of how their product has failed or not met expectations. The designer of that product would not appreciate a random person that got hold of the blueprints telling them without preamble why the product will not work. If you have enough credentials, they will take your advice. If you don't, they will be offended.
The bottom line is that everyone likes to be complemented, and unless you're talking to a very good friend you have to butter people up before criticizing them if you don't want them to get indignant on you. Even then, if you value your friendship you'll probably soften the blow a bit. Use courtesy, politeness, and civility. Even (especially) in text. I'm not saying that your review should be 4/5 praise if that's the rating you gave. A little bit goes a long way, and people usually assume that anyone who starts out by complementing them is alright. But you know all of this already. Carry on.
Understood, but as I have said multiple times, I gave plenty of compliments at the beginning of the post.
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Understood, but as I have said multiple times, I gave plenty of compliments at the beginning of the post.
No, you didn't. One sentence of "this was good" followed by paragraphs of "this was bad", does not a balanced review make. Also, each book is a discrete unit, with its own pros and cons. When you didn't repeat the compliments for WoA and HoA it implied that they didn't have those positive things.
Basically, your review makes it seem like WoA and HoA are nothing but boring exposition fests when they aren't.
Also, I didn't find any of the reminders boring or out of place. IIRC, most of the reminders about Kelsier had to do with expanding upon the religion that had formed around him. When Vin notices the Spear necklace and wonders if it's meant to represent the spear the Lord Ruler used on Kelsier or the one she used on the Lord Ruler, it is perfectly natural and flows excellently with the story. I recall most of your other examples being similarly well placed in the narrative, although I'd have to check to make sure.
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Understood, but as I have said multiple times, I gave plenty of compliments at the beginning of the post.
No, you didn't. One sentence of "this was good" followed by paragraphs of "this was bad", does not a balanced review make. Also, each book is a discrete unit, with its own pros and cons. When you didn't repeat the compliments for WoA and HoA it implied that they didn't have those positive things.
Basically, your review makes it seem like WoA and HoA are nothing but boring exposition fests when they aren't.
Also, I didn't find any of the reminders boring or out of place. IIRC, most of the reminders about Kelsier had to do with expanding upon the religion that had formed around him. When Vin notices the Spear necklace and wonders if it's meant to represent the spear the Lord Ruler used on Kelsier or the one she used on the Lord Ruler, it is perfectly natural and flows excellently with the story. I recall most of your other examples being similarly well placed in the narrative, although I'd have to check to make sure.
Have you read the post or this thread?
Let's look at the post. 1st I post good review scores. Then I count 8 other praiseworthy points.
"Interesting world, unique races, fun characters, unique magic-like system, well paced, plenty of unexpected twists, and just the right amount of description. The ending was decent as well. Very good."
Then I go on to describe 2-3 bad things that only affected the 2nd and 3rd books. I needed to describe them in detail so the points could be understood. All of the positives were self-explanatory. Why should I go on and on about positives that are quite obvious? The negatives needed explanation.
9/3 sounds pretty balanced to me.
I also gave pages and paragrpahs with examples of the repetitive reminders. Go look them up. Who knows... Maybe 2-5 times each book you had forgotten how Vin grew up, or forgot how the lord ruler was killed and needed the reminder...
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You know, with how defensive you're getting about this, it doesn't seem like you're a fan of the books at all. You say you like them, but other than those first 64 words, you spend the next 355 bashing them. About very minor problems.
Yes, I understand that you're giving feedback, but keep in mind how minor these problems are, and Mistborn is at the beginning of Brandon's writing career. Go take a look at Warbreaker, and if you see the same problems to the same degree then you might have something to say. But until then....I just think you're beating a dead horse.
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You know, with how defensive you're getting about this, it doesn't seem like you're a fan of the books at all. You say you like them, but other than those first 64 words, you spend the next 355 bashing them. About very minor problems.
Yes, I understand that you're giving feedback, but keep in mind how minor these problems are, and Mistborn is at the beginning of Brandon's writing career. Go take a look at Warbreaker, and if you see the same problems to the same degree then you might have something to say. But until then....I just think you're beating a dead horse.
"Very minor problems" in your opinion maybe. As I stated already(and you ignored), every time he repeated information that was in previous books, or even worse, was repeated already in the same book, it completely took me out of the story. It was like cold water being splashed in my face.
I don't know if he needed filler, the editors heavily pushed to dumb down the books, or if he really thought that 2 pages later you'd forgot what was just repeated as a reminder, and you already know from previous books where it was repeated multiple times, and from the original book... but it was a problem.
Feel free to look up what I found in a quick 10 minutes of skimming.. He repeated things you knew from previous books, and repeated some things 2 pages later or multiple times PER BOOK.
And I could assure you that I enjoyed the books. It is the only reason I care enough to give feedback.
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I might just take you up on your offer shadow, but later, when I don't have schoolwork to do.
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I might just take you up on your offer shadow, but later, when I don't have schoolwork to do.
Also, to respond to your "Go take a look at Warbreaker...". Only a series would have a problem of repeating previous plot points. This is why I made no complaints of such in Mistborn.
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In that case, I'd think you'd prefer Warbreaker or Elantris.
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I might just take you up on your offer shadow, but later, when I don't have schoolwork to do.
Also, to respond to your "Go take a look at Warbreaker...". Only a series would have a problem of repeating previous plot points. This is why I made no complaints of such in Mistborn.
Huh? I never said anything about Warbreaker in this thread.
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Huh? I never said anything about Warbreaker in this thread.
Yeah...that was me...
And shadow, just wait for Nightblood, then...It's the sequel to Warbreaker. I still heartily recommend it, even if it's a stand-alone. Fantastic book. Same with Elantris.
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Huh? I never said anything about Warbreaker in this thread.
Yeah...that was me...
And shadow, just wait for Nightblood, then...It's the sequel to Warbreaker. I still heartily recommend it, even if it's a stand-alone. Fantastic book. Same with Elantris.
I intend on reading both elantris and warbreaker, since I enjoyed this trilogy.
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shadow, I haven't yet looked at the pages you cited, but will tomorrow. However, you may not be aware that it's industry standard practice to repeat things from previous books to get people up to speed. Brandon might have preferred the summaries to be put at the beginning instead of the end, but Tor would not allow that. It's considered very bad form to require people to read a summary at the beginning—you're supposed to sprinkle the catchup info throughout the book instead, as Brandon has done.
You're off the mark if you're saying he shouldn't repeat things from previous books. Your wish will not be granted, because Brandon HAS to repeat things from previous books. That is the way the publishing world works. What your real complaint should be is that you don't like the WAY he repeated info from previous books, not that he did it at all. The repeated information knocked you out of the story—that's a valid criticism. Perhaps Brandon needs to work on making his catchup information more seamless. Most readers haven't minded it at all, but if there are enough readers like you who do mind it, then it could use some improvement. The same goes for any information repeated within a book. None of it is filler—it's required for plot and rhetorical reasons. If there are enough people like you who are bugged by it, maybe Brandon needs to work on making it more seamless.
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shadow, I haven't yet looked at the pages you cited, but will tomorrow. However, you may not be aware that it's industry standard practice to repeat things from previous books to get people up to speed. Brandon might have preferred the summaries to be put at the beginning instead of the end, but Tor would not allow that. It's considered very bad form to require people to read a summary at the beginning—you're supposed to sprinkle the catchup info throughout the book instead, as Brandon has done.
You're off the mark if you're saying he shouldn't repeat things from previous books. Your wish will not be granted, because Brandon HAS to repeat things from previous books. That is the way the publishing world works. What your real complaint should be is that you don't like the WAY he repeated info from previous books, not that he did it at all. The repeated information knocked you out of the story—that's a valid criticism. Perhaps Brandon needs to work on making his catchup information more seamless. Most readers haven't minded it at all, but if there are enough readers like you who do mind it, then it could use some improvement. The same goes for any information repeated within a book. None of it is filler—it's required for plot and rhetorical reasons. If there are enough people like you who are bugged by it, maybe Brandon needs to work on making it more seamless.
Doing it in the first 20 pages is understandable. 500 pages into the 3rd book is not. Repeating the same info within 2 pages of each other is not. I've read many books and I have NEVER seen anything like what was in these...
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You did not post any page numbers that are 2 pages away from each other. Do you mean some other number than 2?
Also, with a book of this size it's not possible to recap everything within the first 20 pages. It's better to spread it out and insert the information where it's logical to insert it according to the needs of the story.
HoA p. 106: This is the first time Reen is mentioned in the book. A refresher is needed. His voice is a crucial plot point.
HoA p. 402: This explains why Reen did what he did, something that is missing in the previous mention. And it's important to reiterate it here because she's faced with Ruin pretending to be Reen. He can't fool her.
HoA p. 182: "Alendi's logbook" was mentioned once before in this book but not explained. A refresher is needed.
HoA p. 223: Okay, you've got a point here. The "stained-glass windows" information is repeated much too closely. I'm guessing this is a revision error—the info got moved from one paragraph to another, but not deleted from the source paragraph. It looks pretty dumb.
HoA p. 261/265: The focus is different here. Also, it's not repeating information; it's a continuation of the same thought within the same scene. She is reminded of her first ball. The first part of the reflection is about how she feels to herself like a different person now. The second part of the reflection is about how everyone else will now treat her differently.
HoA 383: This is the first time Vin's sister is mentioned in the book. A refresher is needed.
HoA 546: As far as I can tell, this is the first time drawing upon the mists has been mentioned in the book. (I may have missed an earlier reference though, if the words "draw upon" or "drew upon" were not used.) And it makes perfect sense for Vin to think about it here, because here is where she is explaining to Yomen what happened. And it makes perfect sense for her to explain all this to Yomen right now, because he is incredulous and wants to hear it from a firsthand witness.
HoA 598: The part about drawing upon the mists here is letting us know when it was that she felt Ruin's fear. She is thinking about it right at that moment. It's important to make the connection between Ruin's fear and drawing upon the mists.
HoA 222: This is the first time Vin's burglarizing past is mentioned in the book. Mentioning it serves to draw a contrast between her and Elend.
So basically, of everything you cited, it looks to me like just one of your complaints is about something that actually should have been changed. The rest of it is fine.
Nevertheless I'll try to be on the lookout for too much repetition in future manuscripts and let Brandon know if I see any.
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So you think 400 and 600 pages into the final book of a trilogy requires reminders? You think that finding 10 reminder paragraphs in 10 minutes of skimming is not significant? How many reminder paragraphs are there total? 30-40? This is reasonable to you? I've never EVER encounter such blatant and repetitive reminders in a book series before.
I guess we have to agree to disagree. 261-265 is 4 pages, not 2.. close enough. You could rationalize that they are different, but it is the same to me. I don't like being handheld.
If the Malazan series, which is MUCH more epic in scope and book length could have very subtle and few reminders, then a simple trilogy like this doesn't need 30 per book.
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400 and 600 pages into the final book of a trilogy may require reminders if there's something important to upcoming scenes in that book that hasn't been mentioned before in that book. I think the reminders are helpful.
I told you, 261-265 is part of the same scene and a continuation of the same thought with a different focus. If you can't tell that, you're not a very careful reader.
There are a lot of reminders because there are a lot of different things to remind about. Nevertheless your feedback has been noted.
Malazan is not accessible to a lot of people. There are already other threads discussing this about Malazan on the Books forum here. If some people like it, that's great for them. Malazan has a number of dedicated fans, but he might have more if the books were a bit more accessible.
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shadow, I haven't yet looked at the pages you cited, but will tomorrow. However, you may not be aware that it's industry standard practice to repeat things from previous books to get people up to speed. Brandon might have preferred the summaries to be put at the beginning instead of the end, but Tor would not allow that. It's considered very bad form to require people to read a summary at the beginning—you're supposed to sprinkle the catchup info throughout the book instead, as Brandon has done.
You're off the mark if you're saying he shouldn't repeat things from previous books. Your wish will not be granted, because Brandon HAS to repeat things from previous books. That is the way the publishing world works. What your real complaint should be is that you don't like the WAY he repeated info from previous books, not that he did it at all. The repeated information knocked you out of the story—that's a valid criticism. Perhaps Brandon needs to work on making his catchup information more seamless. Most readers haven't minded it at all, but if there are enough readers like you who do mind it, then it could use some improvement. The same goes for any information repeated within a book. None of it is filler—it's required for plot and rhetorical reasons. If there are enough people like you who are bugged by it, maybe Brandon needs to work on making it more seamless.
Doing it in the first 20 pages is understandable. 500 pages into the 3rd book is not. Repeating the same info within 2 pages of each other is not. I've read many books and I have NEVER seen anything like what was in these...
Ah. So you really did come here to criticize them. Wow.
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shadow, I haven't yet looked at the pages you cited, but will tomorrow. However, you may not be aware that it's industry standard practice to repeat things from previous books to get people up to speed. Brandon might have preferred the summaries to be put at the beginning instead of the end, but Tor would not allow that. It's considered very bad form to require people to read a summary at the beginning—you're supposed to sprinkle the catchup info throughout the book instead, as Brandon has done.
You're off the mark if you're saying he shouldn't repeat things from previous books. Your wish will not be granted, because Brandon HAS to repeat things from previous books. That is the way the publishing world works. What your real complaint should be is that you don't like the WAY he repeated info from previous books, not that he did it at all. The repeated information knocked you out of the story—that's a valid criticism. Perhaps Brandon needs to work on making his catchup information more seamless. Most readers haven't minded it at all, but if there are enough readers like you who do mind it, then it could use some improvement. The same goes for any information repeated within a book. None of it is filler—it's required for plot and rhetorical reasons. If there are enough people like you who are bugged by it, maybe Brandon needs to work on making it more seamless.
Doing it in the first 20 pages is understandable. 500 pages into the 3rd book is not. Repeating the same info within 2 pages of each other is not. I've read many books and I have NEVER seen anything like what was in these...
Ah. So you really did come here to criticize them. Wow.
That is what a critique is.
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400 and 600 pages into the final book of a trilogy may require reminders if there's something important to upcoming scenes in that book that hasn't been mentioned before in that book. I think the reminders are helpful.
I told you, 261-265 is part of the same scene and a continuation of the same thought with a different focus. If you can't tell that, you're not a very careful reader.
There are a lot of reminders because there are a lot of different things to remind about. Nevertheless your feedback has been noted.
Malazan is not accessible to a lot of people. There are already other threads discussing this about Malazan on the Books forum here. If some people like it, that's great for them. Malazan has a number of dedicated fans, but he might have more if the books were a bit more accessible.
You need to be reminded 3-4 times a book that Vin came from the streets or that she had a bad brother?
Again, I could list every book I've read in the last 4 years and not ONE of them has even 1/4 of the reminders in these books.
Why is it that I could find 10 instances of repetition in 10 minutes of skimming a 700 page book, but none past the 20 page mark in over my last 50 books? If this were common, it is one thing, but I have never in my life encountered such blatant and obvious repetition of such basic information.
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The narrative reflects what the characters are thinking about. Vin's background is an important part of her character. She thinks about her past. We're inside her head. That's easy for me to understand.
If you think authors don't give reminders past the first 20 pages, you're simply not paying attention while reading other books. Or maybe—and I've acknowledged this as a possibility—maybe those authors just succeed better at making it seamless. Maybe Brandon should work on that. Personally, I had absolutely no problem with the reminders you cited. They fit the scenes they were in. They were consistent with the characters' thoughts and backgrounds.
Go ahead. List every book you've read in the last 4 years, or the last 50 books you've read. Let's see if there are any reminders past the first 20 pages.
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Maybe they are indeed more seamless.
I think we should leave this at the agree to disagree.
If you are still interested, I'd be happy to private msg you the list!
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Doing it in the first 20 pages is understandable. 500 pages into the 3rd book is not. Repeating the same info within 2 pages of each other is not. I've read many books and I have NEVER seen anything like what was in these...
Then whatever you do, don't read Talon of the Silver Hawk by Raymond E. Feist. You will hear Talon repeat the same facts about his races genocide, half the time within a page of the last mention, that you will probably go insane. I don't even want to count how many times he's referred to the fact that his people used to bathe in lakes and streams...
But anywho, the only repetition I noticed was usually Sazed thinking the same thing over and over. The rest of it I probably just glossed over. Once your mind has been burned by Feist nothing else is really quite so in your face.
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Exaggeration is so much fun.
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I think this whole thing has blown out proportion...Shadow has the fact that Brandon has only published 5 books, 6 if include Dragonsteel. but thats not really availiable to the public, anyway, crossed your mind at all as i said in a previous thread in here. the more he writes the better his technique will be, and if it doesnt then im not shedding any tears of frustration or anger over his style so get over it all ready, Everyone Else just drop the matter i mean shadow is entitled to his/her opinion and if we dont like it or anything then just stop reading it okie day i mean gosh sounds like your about to beat shadow to the ground for saying whats on his mind.