Timewaster's Guide Archive
Departments => Books => Topic started by: Shaggy on June 02, 2009, 12:35:31 AM
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Many of us are aware of the up-and-coming master author, Patrick Rothfuss. His debut novel was The Name of the Wind, which was an immediate hit. On the website http://www.bestfantasybooks.com/top25-fantasy-books.php, TNotW is actually listed as the 3rd best fantasy book (I'm assuming) in the world.
I, myself, am very interested about Mr. Rothfuss's thoughts concerning his novel; it's not quite like anything else I've ever read–perhaps that is part of what makes it so incredible. Anyway, I found this youtube link to an interview with him and thought it was pretty interesting, so: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRpBpSW6eKU.
[NB: This thread is for anyone who wants to comment/discuss the video, any ideas expressed in it, Mr. Rothfuss's writing, TNotW, or anything else along those lines.]
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The man is awesome. 'Nuff said.
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I read The Name of the Wind, and I enjoyed it. From watching the video, however, it seems to me that Rothfuss thinks he's broken far more "new ground" than he actually has.
Name of the Wind actually felt faintly derivative to me, aside from the framing device, which is simply a little more elaborate than your run of the mill framing devices.
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Too long; didn't watch. I'd read a transcript if there is one.
Yes, Name of the Wind is quite derivative. However, that's not a problem. Rothfuss's storytelling is what sells the book. Honestly, after reading it, I am disinclined to read an eternal apprentice book ever again, because I don't think any is going to measure up. This book is just awesome and does everything I could want in an eternal apprentice book.
Not everyone wants to read the standard eternal apprentice story, so this book won't be on everyone's top fantasy books list. But if you're going to read just one eternal apprentice story in your life it should be this one.
Also, Pat is a cool dude. Quite entertaining at panels.
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Many of us are aware of the up-and-coming master author, Patrick Rothfuss. His debut novel was The Name of the Wind, which was an immediate hit. On the website http://www.bestfantasybooks.com/top25-fantasy-books.php, TNotW is actually listed as the 3rd best fantasy book (I'm assuming) in the world.
Keep in mind that the list you are linking is just some random dude's list of favorites. It isn't an official list by any stretch of the imagination. For example, he says that the vast majority of fantasy-reading public agrees with him based on the comments attached to his picks - his picks have just over a dozen comments each. I didn't realize there were less than 20 fantasy readers in the world...
Personally, I like Patrick a lot. I think he is a cool guy who writes well. But I think it is a bit early to say that he is one of the best fantasy authors out there. If his whole series ends up being incredible, then we can say, "Yay he's in the top 5!" But until we see more than 1 book of his, I think we need to withhold making him a deity.
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Yes, Name of the Wind is quite derivative. However, that's not a problem. Rothfuss's storytelling is what sells the book.
Couldn't agree more. Like I said, I enjoyed it. Perhaps not to the degree that I never want to read another 'eternal apprentice' book ever again for fear of the comparison, but it was good.
I've never met Mr. Rothfuss but I hear he's a nice guy from lots people. The video probably didn't do him justice. In it he spends A LOT of time explaining that because he's spent 14 years, (pretty much his whole adult life, which, incidentally, is actually a bad thing in my book) in academia, 9 years to get a bachelor's and so forth, he was uniquely qualified to write something really great and NEW in the fantasy genre.
He did write something great, but it certainly wasn't capital N E W new.
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I may have been exaggerating, but it was how I felt after I read the book and I'll probably keep saying it until I read another eternal apprentice book that's remotely good. The only one I've read post-Rothfuss was Peter V. Brett's The Warded Man (called The Painted Man outside the U.S.), and it was sooo mediocre.
Brandon has only written two, Dragonsteel and Mythwalker. Dragonsteel was better once it got past the typical apprentice stuff. And Mythwalker turned out bad, never got finished, and was thoroughly cannibalized into more interesting books (Mistborn and Warbreaker). I'm glad that Brandon writes different stories than the eternal apprentice story because he's really good at coming up with different stuff.
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(@ Bookstore Guy) Oh, I know. I was just putting up there as another viewpoint. (Also, it was just talking about the books, not the authors.)
I hope it takes him less than 14 years to come out with the next book in the series, though!
One thing that really, really amused/annoyed me was at the end of the book…that was an ENORMOUS cliffhanger (which I don't want to spoil for anyone who hasn't read it yet). It was annoying, but I bet that cliffhanger ensured that A LOT of people are gonna buy the next one haha.
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Pat turned in the second book a couple weeks ago. http://www.patrickrothfuss.com/blog/2009/05/when-in-rome.html
[EDIT: Not exactly. See my post in a couple pages.]
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OMG that's so exciting!!!
Hey, Ook, how long do you think before it's actually published?
Wow. That thing is HUGE. Anyone have any idea hwo logn that would be in normal book-sized pages??
He sounds like a really funny guy, actually. And I totally associate with what he's saying. I'm gonna have to follow his blog more often. :-\ Thanks, Ook.
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It's coming out sometime in 2010. Sorry the news is not better. :)
If it took more than 3 reams of paper, let's say it's 1600 manuscript pages. That could be 320,000 to 350,000 words. Or a lot more depending on font and spacing.
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Ah, well, I should've guessed such a thick manuscript would take time to proofread and stuff. :-\ I just hope it'll be worth the wait.
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It'll be the size of a Jordan novel (think Shadow Rising) if it stays as is. Impressive size. I wouldn't be surprised if if gets cut down quite a bit however. This was a draft after all. My fear is that it will get the "middle book in a trilogy" treatment. I don't think Patrick will let that happen, but I'm paranoid.
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Well. This is Pat's revised draft. He had finished the first draft of all three books before the first one got published. It's revision that he's been working on for the last couple years—though that revision likely involves adding quite a bit. His blog mentions some of what got added into the revised draft of the first book.
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Bookstore Guy–what exactly do you mean? (I'm not familiar with the treatment that you are talking about.…)
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I'm not sure that characterizing it as "Eternal Apprentice" is a just treatment. I'd be interested in specifics that lead to that conclusion. Would you characterize the Character arcs of Nynaeve or Galad as "Eternal Apprentice"? I'm just curious because I got a very different take on it. I saw it as partly derivative, but it seemed to me the source probably Sam from Song of Fire and Ice (which is derivative of Tolkien BTW). :)
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Could someone help me out and explain this "Eternal Apprentice" thing, please? I tried googling it and stuff but I'm not getting anything relevant or at all helpful, really.…
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Sam from Song of Ice and Fire? I...don't really see that in Rothfuss.
I may be using the term incorrectly—when I use it I may be thinking more of bildungsroman or even just the standard hero's journey.
Bildungsroman (Wikipedia):
The protagonist grows from child to adult.
The protagonist must have a reason to embark upon his or her journey. A loss or discontent must, at an early stage, jar him or her away from their home or family setting.
The process of maturation is long, arduous and gradual, involving repeated clashes between the hero's needs and desires and the views and judgments enforced by an unbending social order.
Eventually, the spirit and values of the social order become manifest in the protagonist, who is ultimately incorporated into the society. The novel ends with the protagonist's assessment of himself and his new place in that society.
The societal relation stuff may not figure (we haven't necessarily gotten far enough into the story yet), but the rest is there.
Hero's Journey (Wikipedia):
The Call To Adventure – "A blunder – apparently the merest chance – reveals an unsuspected world, and the individual is drawn into a relationship with forces that are not rightly understood."
After the hero has accepted the call, he encounters a protective figure (often elderly) who provides special tools and advice for the adventure ahead, such as an amulet or a weapon.
The hero must cross the threshold between the world he is familiar with and that which he is not. Often this involves facing a "threshold guardian", an entity that works to keep all within the protective confines of the world but must be encountered in order to enter the new zone of experience.
The hero, rather than passing a threshold, passes into the new zone by means of rebirth. Appearing to have died by being swallowed or having their flesh scattered, the hero is transformed and becomes ready for the adventure ahead.
Once past the threshold, the hero encounters a dream landscape of ambiguous and fluid forms. The hero is challenged to survive a succession of obstacles and, in so doing, amplifies his consciousness.
Etc. etc. You can see aspects of all that in Name of the Wind, though some less literally than others.
There are reasons these stories often do well. They resonate with us; they're part of our culture. But they're definitely not new.
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Learning-Journey Romance? That I can buy, though Rothfuss might be more a Kunstlerroman (Artistic-Development Romance).
But yeah:
Young, effeminate, love-staved boy is thrust into life imprisonment for no other reason than his father despises him. Finds love, and a masculine core, then is allowed to develop the scholarly discipline that he's craved since a child. All told against the backdrop of the social and political upheaval of a socially backward nation in civil war?
Sounds like Sam's character arc to me.
As for parallels:
Kvothe was from a good family Sam was from a noble family.
of free self employed
entertainers.
Kvothe was separated from his Sam was violently discarded.
family by violence.
Kvothe lived on the streets as a Sam is imprisoned for life
criminal. with criminals.
Kvothe takes advantage of Sam takes advantage of
relationships to get into college. relationships to go to college.
Kvothe develops a love affair Sam. . .
with an outcast.
It goes on ad nauseum. :)
Kvothe's parents were killed, while Sam is ophaned by the loss of his mother and disownment by his father. And of course in any comparison there will be discrepancies as well. But then were aren't accusing anyone of plagerism. ;)
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Um... Kvothe effeminate? His father despises him? A socially backward nation in civil war?
None of that is true. Did you read the same book I read?
Kvothe was from a poor family. Sam was from a rich family.
Kvothe's parents are dead. Sam's parents are alive. (Last I remember.)
Kvothe lived on the streets and had to scrimp for food. Sam became a steward whose food was provided for him.
Kvothe is smart enough to get a scholarship. Sam I really don't remember why he was going to that school, but Rothfuss had written the book by the time that Martin novel came out.
Kvothe pines after a smart girl who changes identities often. Sam falls in with a simple girl who just wants to take care of her baby.
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Sorry I think you might have misread the post.
Young, effeminate, love-staved boy is thrust into life imprisonment for no other reason than his father despises him. Finds love, and a masculine core, then is allowed to develop the scholarly discipline that he's craved since a child. All told against the backdrop of the social and political upheaval of a socially backward nation in civil war?
This applies to Sam's character arc which I was suggesting might be more Kunstlerroman not kvothe or both. ;)
The parallels list is where I drew parallels.
I'm fairly certain there is only one Name of the Wind by a Patrick Rothfuss? It really must have been the same book. :)
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You said Rothfuss was kunstlerroman...
Post updated.
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Ah so I did. Thank you for the correction. :)
But none of this is getting text written, so off to the grind-stone.
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Here are the second (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aEyNx04s8U&feature=related) and third (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss-Ua34kqiY&feature=channel) parts of the interview, which I found better than the first part.
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what i was meaning by "treatment" was the phenomenon that most 2nd books in a trilogy suffer from sequel-syndrome. many authors use it as only set-up for the 3rd novel and dont really accomplish anything in book 2. Many times books 2 is filler. it is a pretty common occurrence in trilogies. I hope it doesnt happen to Rothfuss, and he seems like he knows what he's doing. I mean, he wrote the whole draft forever ago, so he knows what's gonna happen.
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Rothfuss himself has admitted that he's not a good plotter. He's a storyteller. The first book ended at a rather arbitrary point; it didn't have much of a climax per se—the draccus thing was probably the most climactic, but he didn't even add that until the last draft so it wasn't part of the original plan.
I expect the second book to be more of the same—great story but not much in the way of traditional plot structure.
[EDIT: Looked up spelling of draccus.]
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I agree with Ook. Few of the parallels you (Renarod) drew are based on correct info.
Oh, OK…(@ Bookstore Guy) I doubt that'll happen, though, because since he originally wrote the draft intending it to be only one book, none (or at least a very small amount of it) would be filler.
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like i said, it's paranoia.
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what is?
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I wouldn't be surprised if if gets cut down quite a bit however. This was a draft after all. My fear is that it will get the "middle book in a trilogy" treatment. I don't think Patrick will let that happen, but I'm paranoid.
His fear about Wise Man's Fear is paranoia.
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The question is, does that make him a Wise Man or a Foolish Man? Hmmm...
I'm hoping that 2nd book syndrome is reduced in this particular series just because it was originally one massive book. But we really can't know until it comes out.
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I have to admit that Patrick is one of my favorite authors. It's a combination of loving his first book and reading his fantastic blog. Brandon and Patrick's blogs are the only ones I read and check regularly because they are entertaining and informative. I am definitely looking forward to Book 2 and am getting the fantasy readers of my family (Dad, Mom and brother) to read The Name of the Wind.
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It was originally written as one book, yeah; there's also the fact that it's the size of like four sumo wrestlers–not exactly in need of more filling out.
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By the way, I was mistaken about the significance of the following:
Pat turned in the second book a couple weeks ago. http://www.patrickrothfuss.com/blog/2009/05/when-in-rome.html
I saw Pat at Worldcon. The draft he spoke about in that post was an intermediate draft and by no means the final pre-editorial draft. He is still writing the second book and there is no release date.
I figure that once he's finished with the book to his satisfaction, it will be awesome. That's what he did with the first book, and the results speak for themselves.
Until then, there are other books to read out there.
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In a sense, I feel like Pat is being given ridiculous expectations for his second book.
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Why??
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I love Pat Rothfuss' book titles. Both 'The Name of The Wind" and "The Wise Man's Fear" are exeptionally good, as far as titles go.
Speaking of which, do we know the title for the third book yet?
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Why??
With all the acclaim that came with book 1, people naturally expect book 2 to be just as good (if not better). the craziness comes when you have a delay in the release of that sequel. it builds more and more hype in the consumer's mind. you see this same phenomenon with video game releases, music, and movies. People are naturally hyping book 2 up in their minds more and more. I just hope people don't get too unrealistic with what they expect.
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Ohh.. Hmm I see what you're saying (and, I myself, have experienced this before). But just to play the devil's advocate here . . . don't you think certain amounts of the "hype" is realistic . . . ? since it's based off of the incredible quality of the first book which is actually just the first part of an original single book, it is reasonable to expect the rest of the story will be, if not AS amazing, then certainly more than decent.
(Do you see what I'm saying?)
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Certain amounts yes. But a delay in release causes more and more hype. Think about George R.R. Martin, there was an absurd delay between books 3 and 4, and it led to a generally poor reception of book 4 - I don't see how book 5 can have anything other than the same reception at this point.
Now, you point out that it was really all just one book, so therefore you can realistically expect part 2 to be just as good. I don't think you can expect that at all. You can hope--as I certainly do--that it will be as good, but over-hyping expectations generally leads to disappointment. By your same argument, we can say that we should expect book 2 to be worse, because the middle of a high proportion of fantasy novels are terribly slow, and are used exclusively for set-up. Pat is a good guy, and a good writer, so I don't think this will happen. However, people need to step back and breathe a bit rather than expect the greatest fantasy novel ever written over the history of time, and in all parallel universes (cause that is what people are starting to do now).
I would kill to be published like Pat, but I don't envy the hype fans are pumping into his book 2. Personally, I will be satisfied with an enjoyable novel that can be slightly less awesome than book 1, and I feel that is a realistic hope and expectation. It also allows me to be blown away in the event that he goes to a whole 'nother level of awesome.
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Part of the problem with the 2nd book was that since it was the middle of a larger book, it was originally written without a beginning or end. And the first book was written without an end, which Pat had to add, which caused the first part of book 2 to not match up with the end of book 1. So the rewriting has dealt a lot with that kind of issue.
Pat has said several times that he's really a storyteller rather than a novelist. Novels require a certain structure and adapting the story to that has been difficult.
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Exactly! Now if we could get other people other than us awesome-ones to get that, Pat will have no issues...
Speaking of which, we should really post a review of his first book on our blog...too many people I know still haven't read it...slackers.
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Ohh now I see what you're saying. Hm.
I would kill to be published like Pat, but I don't envy the hype fans are pumping into his book 2. Personally, I will be satisfied with an enjoyable novel that can be slightly less awesome than book 1, and I feel that is a realistic hope and expectation. It also allows me to be blown away in the event that he goes to a whole 'nother level of awesome.
Yes, this is probably a healthier way of looking at things. And (like you said), might make the book more enjoyable.
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But...if we take Pat's comments to heart, book 2 should kill us with awesome-ness. :P
It's going to be so good the ALA will have to put a label on it warning people of the dangerous levels of awesome contained therin. It's going to be so good that you will read it and then die.
Well... I might want to scale it back a little from that. But still, when it comes out it would probably be safest to read it with one eye closed, just to be safe.
(Side-note: I totally agree with BG. I'm trying not to get my expectations up unrealistically high for this book...But I do still expect it to be good....)
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Speaking of which, we should really post a review of his first book on our blog...too many people I know still haven't read it...slackers.
Please do! More people need to know about this book.
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More people need to know about this book.
I agree. We must spread the PR!!! (Doesn't have quite the ring BS has, does it? :-\ Oh, well.)
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Hey, they're still both acronyms. :P
But yes. BS's is much better. Bull "crap" or Public Relations?
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Why Public Address? It is an R, and Address doesn't start with R...... Plus pr widely stands for Public Relations.
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Oh, wow. I just had a total brain freeze. :-[ Don't feel bad about deleting that. . . .
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Except that then my post looks really stupid when I suddenly start questioning about why public address for no apparent reason....
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Edit away, my friend!
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If you delete yours, I'll delete mine. :P
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But... you... already....
Never mind.
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The ones AFTER that, sortitus. Please. This is such a pointless conversation. Can we just DELETE them?!? :P
Seriously tho.
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I like Patty's books.
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I do not expect book 2 to break any new ground. Book 1 didn't. It took cliches and presented them in interesting ways and subverted some of them. I expect more of the same from book 2, and I expect to enjoy it about as much. (Which is quite a lot.)
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What's funny is that Patrick Rothfuss seems to be convinced that Name of the Wind was the most groundbreaking novel ever, and is not at all cliche. I tend to think that it just presents cliches in better, more interesting ways than usual.
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He wrote a 662 page book that people are in love with that doesn't have a climax. That seems like breaking new ground to me.
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I would say it has a climax of sorts, what leads up to him paying off what he owes. It's the climax to that plot arc at least, though not for the book as a whole, and it comes in about the right place for the book as a whole.
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2009 was a disappointing year for my favorite authors. Rothfuss: delayed. Lynch: Delayed. Martin: Delayed.
God Bless Brandon Sanderson and Jim Butcher. Without those two, I wouldn't have ANY of my favorite series to read.
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Um... Towers of Midnight might get pushed to Marchish 2011. Brandon has mentioned this a few times. He is not immune to things taking a while.
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Um... Towers of Midnight might get pushed to Marchish 2011. Brandon has mentioned this a few times. He is not immune to things taking a while.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not criticizing those authors for not getting their books finished using the timeline I wanted, nor am I saying that everything always works out timewise for Brandon. I guess it was more of a tip of my hat to the authors that seem to be constantly working on their stuff. I have a hard enough time just getting motivated to work on my novel, let alone finish a book or two every single year.
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I think I saw a guy selling pages on the corner. But you have to stand with your back to him and pass the money in an envelope. At least that's what they tell me.
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If I had 8,000 dollars to blow, I would totally bid on this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130356745289). Pat is one brave guy. Yeah, he gives his stipulations here (http://www.patrickrothfuss.com/blog/2010/01/auctions-golden-ticket-and-arc-of.html) but there's still a lot of wiggle room there....
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wow...up to 15000 now :o
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I don't know how anyone is able to get past chapter 6/7 of his In the Name of the Wood book. The story is so dull and uninteresting and yet this is one of the most highly rated fantasy books I've ever seen. The book must come with some sort of post hypnotic suggestion I'm missing out on on my downloaded copy.
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I listened to the audiobook. Being a captive audience and committing to finish helps get you into it. My reaction to the beginning was similar to yours.
It's not an original story. It's a familiar story done better than it's ever been done before. Rothfuss is not much of a plotter but he is an excellent storyteller.
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How long do I have to wait before it starts getting remotely interesting? I'll try again but the first time was very difficult.
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How long do I have to wait before it starts getting remotely interesting? I'll try again but the first time was very difficult.
I don't know, it hooked me the moment Chronicler and Kvothe met.
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I don't know when it hooked me, but I would say give it til Kvothe starts telling his story to Chronicler. He tells it in several sections, and if you're not hooked by the end of his first section (when it switches back to the present time from the past story-telling), I would be very surprised.
Also, the bid ended on 15,200. That is a lot of money to spend on one favor from a best-selling author....
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I gave it a second try and I'm glad I did. I finished the book in 3 days. The beginning is still extremely boring, but the rest was great. It actually reminded me alot of Harry Potter.
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This is now my favorite book, and will be until I find a better. (umm......) I was captured from the first sentence. LOVE this book.
I started reading it to my little brother (11), despite his protests of starting a new book. 'Cause he hates it when I get him hooked on a new book while he's in the middle of one. He's now reading the book on his own. As completely absorbed as I was.
I've read it 4 times now, I think? gets better every time.
I picked up something awesome last time. Kote means disaster. Telling, no?
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Wise Man's Fear comes out in March 2011 right?
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Yes, it does.
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So as long as we're talking release dates, Peter...
In January you mentioned that Towers of Midnight might get pushed back to Marchish 2011. That still a possibility? I noticed that he's posted 25% through the final draft. Where does that put the publication schedule?
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Facebook puts it at 37% as of last night... and he mentioned something about foreseeing Monday as being a long day to finish it up. So I'm guessing it's coming out this year.
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As far as we know it will come out November 2, 2010. Though there are some tricky timeline issues that might possibly hold things up a little, though I think there's still enough wiggle room in production time not to delay the release. But the third book could come out Marchish 2012.
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I have waited 20 years for this series to finish and I can wait longer. I hope Brandon does not get pressure to release the book before he feels he is ready with it. I hope TOR gives him whatever time he needs. Given the sales of the Gathering Storm, I would hope Brandon has more sway with the publisher now to push back if he feels he won't be done by their deadlines.