Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: EUOL on October 15, 2008, 04:35:59 AM
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Folks,
Use this thread to discuss The Hero of Ages with as many spoilers as you care to mention. Don't read on unless you have read the book!
Feel free to post questions for me here, and I'll do my best to find time to answer them.
--Brandon
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Just wanted to say, great work on the book. It kept me completely occupied from around 11 am to 8 pm and i have got to say that it had the most well thought out ending ever put into a book.
Also, do you have any plans for more mistborn books? or is this the end?
And what happened to Marsh? The book doesnt mention him after he fights with Elend.
also, you should tell us what the last two metals are ;)
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Wow, where to begin?
Probably the first thing is to congratulate you on your best book to date, IMO. :)
That being said, WOW!!!!!!!
It was an emotional roller coaster the whole way through. And that ending was simply pristine. Superb job. I always loved Sazed as a character and had inklings that he was destined for great things, but I did not see the whole "ascending to Godhood" thing coming. :D
And the best part is that the ending is open! If anymore books are to be written, there is a plethora of avenues to explore and, of course, there is always another secret. ;)
Ah yes, those elusive last two metals. I imagine the obviously inevitable thread about the speculation of the last two metals will probably be one of the largest threads ever to dominate this forum. ;D
Again, Bravo Zulu (military slang for good job) on such an outstanding book. :)
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Here's what Brandon told me after I finished the book and asked him my questions—25 months ago to the day (wow, it's been a long time).
TenSoon, and maybe Marsh, will get endings. I will do something about that. In my mind, Marsh is dead--burned away by the sunlight. TenSoon and kandra are still around, though.
He may have changed his mind since then.
Brandon, do you mind if I post, well, most of that e-mail?
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I can guess 2 possible ptions for the kandra.
1. God Sazed endowed the gift of presence on the now mistwraiths.
2. Some of the Kandra survived in the cave with the Terrisman and people of the city, along with the small mistwraiths, these are re-born with the spikes they pulled out during the resolution.
I can imagine too that some kandra on assignment may have hidden in the shelters with the rest of humanity.
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Very fun book. Well done.
It looks like someone's already asked the "what happened to Marsh?" question, which was the main one that I had at the end.
Other minor questions:
-On a broader level, is hemalurgy officially dead, then? Or is it still extant in some Ruin-free (but still messy) form? (If it's gone, is there any imbalance since Preservation's magic power is kept and Ruin's isn't?)
-Also, are koloss just naturally bad-tempered, even without Ruin's influence? Cause the koloss are still taking swipes at Sazed immediately after the merger.
-(And, does Sazed zap all the koloss? Did they all get toasted by the sun? But what about Human and his friends underground? Are there still koloss around? Just wonderin'.)
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Man, I had forgotten how small of a font your pages have, Brandon. It took me a good 16 hours of reading to get through, but then again, anything of note I actually wrote down with page references. At least, up until the end, where I stop worrying about things like that. It's a beast of a logbook, coming out at like 4400 words. That probably took me a lot of time and I didn't even see the time flying by. :D That, and maybe I'm just a slow reader.
Firstly: Wow. ...I think that pretty much states it all.
Secondly: I have a few questions for you, whenever you get a chance to answer.
1.I really want to know what the last two metals are. I always thought the bead Elend ate was one of them, but perhaps they are just things of Preservation, not meant to be understood.
2. Do all three Metallic Arts still exist after the events of the book? Are Allomancy and Hemalurgy slightly degenerated now that Ruin and Preservation are dead, or does Allomancy still draw upon Preservation's power (just held with Sazed now)?
3. How were the Terris Prophecies created in the first place? Every other magic related thing is quite logically explained in terms of Ruin and Preservation, except that one.
4. When did Preservation decide to imprison Ruin in the Well? No need to be specific, I should think. A simple "Near Alendi's time" or "Way before Alendi's time" would suffice, or whichever time of reference you want to use.
Also, this one is not a question, but nice Hoid reference in there. I especially like it how the Ars Arcanum refers to Slowswift as "bears a striking resemblance to a well-known storyteller." I'm on to you... :P
All in all, phenomenal book. It wasn't what I expected, but that's an excellent thing, because you explained everything I wanted to know wonderfully (the epigraphs were a superb worldbuilding tool) and you did every character justice, even the Lord Ruler. My favorite character still must be Elend, followed by Breeze for moments of sheer hilarity. I just loved the book. My eyes hurt, but that is probably because I stayed up so late reading it. Great job!
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And now for you theorizers, since the other Spoiler topics were closed.
I have been beaten. My ideas were way out there. Yeah, pretty much all of my theories can be disregarded. Reaves wins the bet for the epigraphs, but I object on the grounds that he didn't pick any specific person.
My Hemalurgy theory was far too complex. Brandon's explanation makes far more sense. I wrote down in my logbook:
Epigraph 34 - It irks me that I did not think of Allomancy and Hemalurgy in terms of physics. Of course that's how they work. I'm a physics major, for crying out loud--I should have thought this in terms of Conservation of Energy. Still, nothing particularly enlightening about Feruchemy here. It's not the magics relation with the mists, it is their relationship with Ruin and Preservation. Of course it is.
We should've focused a lot more on the Ruin and Preservation thread.
Also, Ookla, we were right for saying that the mist spirit was, technically, part of Preservation! Blast you! You were just trying to tell us that it's not all of the power!
Speaking of that, Elmandr does not win the bet for the mist spirit. At all. That one died just as quickly as my "Rashek writing the epigraphs" and things. Oh, and Hemalurgy--you could say it crashed and burned like my Hemalurgy theory, and with my "mists cause Allomancy" theory. Okay, now that that is settled...
Time for the part where I shamelessly mention where I was right, because I'm humble that way.
On the bottom of page 24 on the Countdown thread, I totally called it out that the atium cache was the thing Ruin wanted. I had no idea why, but hey, it's the principle of the thing.
The earring. I was completely right that it was the thing that prevented the mist-burning, and in one of those later epigraphs, Sazed agreed with me. And, even more, it sort of had something to do with Hemalurgy. That counts. That counts big time.
Okay, and whoever made the topic that referenced the "on my arms" reference, I humbly do bow to you, because that was far more brilliant than any of my rants.
That also goes for everyone saying Ruin manipulated the 11th metal theory (Allomancy Hobo crashed and burned) and manipulated things during the Final Empire. Kudos to you.
So, yeah. That's all I have to say about that for now. If anyone cares, I could post my log of my thoughts on MB3 as I was reading, but not now. Now is a time for sleep, desperately.
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First time poster but I've been following Brandon's works since he was announced as WoT completer. Since that time I've read Elantris and the Mistborn series. They are both some of my favorite works of fantasy.
I thought there was a bit too much foreshadowing done. It made it too easy to guess what was going to happen next. However, there were a few things that still surprised me so that's not that big of a deal.
I loved the length of the chapters. Most were only 5 or 6 pages. This really kept the pace up the whole time and kept me from both getting bored and gave me a sense of urgency.
The Kandra were spectacular. So many surprises with them and the mental pictures of their translucent bodies were great.
I'm not sure if it is bad or good but I have a real problem getting a grand picture of the world in the mistborn series. Maybe this is because it is always changing and those who live in it never really get a good view of it because of the ash and mists. However, in other fantasy novels I have a pretty easy time keeping a mental map of world. With Mistborn I have good images of certain locations but my mental map is pretty much non existent.
I was wrong about the last group of Koloss that Elend took control of. I really thought that the reason he couldn't detect the Inquisitor any more was going to be because his mass pulling had also taken control of it. When Marsh showed up I really thought he was going to be a different Inquisitor and under Elend's control.
I think the series has definitely been left open for follow ups. I doubt we'll ever see another sequel with the same cast though. Sazed will obviously be a part of it and I think Vin and Elend will probably play some role but who knows.
I was so pissed off that we didn't find out what the two other metals were. I had also assumed that the part of Preseveration must be one of them.
I expected the bones of Kelsier to come into play again since he had Tensoon carrying them all over the place. I was surprised when they were just buried and then forgotten.
This may be a topic no one wants to talk about but I think you can see some of Mormonism coming through in this book. I'm pretty sure I read an interview with Brandon where he said he was Mormon. This makes sense as the most convincing stories have a basis in something the author is familiar with. I'm not trying to start any religious debates or anything. I just thought it was worth mentioning that some of these ideas seem to have their basis in the teachings of the LDS.
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I would like to echo a question that someone beat me to. The way you ended it seemed to leave the door wide open for other books with characters such as Spook and Breeze playing much larger rolls. My question is was the ending planned as just an open-ended ending to make people wonder about what might happen, or was that with the intent of writing more books in mind?
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Brandon does want to write more Mistborn books, but not with the same characters. There would be two more trilogies. The second trilogy would be set a few hundred years later, in a modern day–type setting, when the events of the first trilogy have passed into legend. The third trilogy would be set a few more hundred years later, in a future, outer space–type setting.
It's such an audacious idea I wish he would write it right now because I want to read it, especially the third trilogy. But Brandon has announced his next project (pending Tor approval) will be Way of Kings, a 10-volume epic fantasy. He'll sprinkle in a book from another project here and there, so the next Mistborn trilogy might start before Way of Kings is ended, but it will be years yet before there is any more Mistborn.
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But Brandon has announced his next project (pending Tor approval) will be Way of Kings, a 10-volume epic fantasy. He'll sprinkle in a book from another project here and there, so the next Mistborn trilogy might start before Way of Kings is ended, but it will be years yet before there is any more Mistborn.
But Ookla, he already wrote that one (http://www.amazon.com/Way-Kings-Brandon-Sanderson/dp/B000WH4TIA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224089786&sr=8-1)!
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I know. :)
The real story is that Brandon was writing (or revising?) Way of Kings when Tor offered to buy Elantris. Brandon signed a two-book contract for Elantris and Way of Kings. Then Brandon realized he wasn't in the point in his career yet where he could write Way of Kings the way he wanted to, so while he was supposed to be revising Way of Kings he secretly wrote the first Mistborn book instead, which he then sold to Tor as a trilogy, replacing Way of Kings in the original contract.
But for some reason Amazon already had a listing for Way of Kings, with a release date. Thence the fake reviews.
I've read an early draft of the first book, and it aims to be very epic. (No, Elvis is not involved.) I do wonder, though, whether when it actually comes out, the fake reviews will get attached to its Amazon listing. :)
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Just wanted to say, great work on the book. It kept me completely occupied from around 11 am to 8 pm and i have got to say that it had the most well thought out ending ever put into a book.
Also, do you have any plans for more mistborn books? or is this the end?
And what happened to Marsh? The book doesnt mention him after he fights with Elend.
also, you should tell us what the last two metals are ;)
Okay, I was expecting these. Let's get to them first.
1) More Mistborn Books
My plans right now are to do a second trilogy of Mistborn books set several hundred years after the events of the first series. That means that technology would have progressed, and there's a good chance I'll decide to do the books as kind of an urban fantasy. (But set in a completely different world from our own, so not quite like other urban fantasies.) Guns, skyscrapers, cars--and Allomancy.
Now, I'm not 100% decided on that. I know that adding modern technology ruins the fantasy flavor of a book for many people, so I'll have to think about it. But I think the imagery would be compelling, and I would love to deal with a 'modern' world where the events of this trilogy form the foundation for the religions, history, and society of the book. It would be a really challenge, since I'd have to decide how technology and society developed following this book.
2) Marsh is alive. I changed this from when I talked to Ookla. I realized some things about his use of Allomancy that would allow him to survive. Actually, he is immortal. He can pull off the same Allomancy/Feruchemy trick that the Lord Ruler did. (And he knows it too, since he was there when Sazed explained how it was done in Book One.) He's actually the only living person who actually knows this trick for certain. (Though there's a chance that Spook, Ham and Breeze heard about it from Vin and the others.) So yes, if there were another series, Marsh would make an appearance.
3) The last two metals are Chromium and Nicrosil. We'll reveal what they do on the Allomancy poster. Suffice it to say that in the next trilogy, the main protagonist would be a Nicrosil Misting. And, to make a Robert Jordan-type comment, what those two metals do should become obvious to the serious student of Allomancy... (It has to do with the nature of the metal groupings.)
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I can guess 2 possible ptions for the kandra.
1. God Sazed endowed the gift of presence on the now mistwraiths.
2. Some of the Kandra survived in the cave with the Terrisman and people of the city, along with the small mistwraiths, these are re-born with the spikes they pulled out during the resolution.
I can imagine too that some kandra on assignment may have hidden in the shelters with the rest of humanity.
The Kandra.
Yes, they live. The people were smart enough, eventually, to replace their spikes. (And there were a couple who were on assignment who made it to storage caches.)
However, there will likely never be any more of them, since Hemalurgy is required to make them. They are now some of the few people who can communicate directly with Sazed, who--like Ruin--can whisper to people most easily when they are connected to him via spikes. With some speculation, you can probably guess what kind of roles the Kandra will end up playing in future books.
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-On a broader level, is hemalurgy officially dead, then? Or is it still extant in some Ruin-free (but still messy) form? (If it's gone, is there any imbalance since Preservation's magic power is kept and Ruin's isn't?)
-Also, are koloss just naturally bad-tempered, even without Ruin's influence? Cause the koloss are still taking swipes at Sazed immediately after the merger.
-(And, does Sazed zap all the koloss? Did they all get toasted by the sun? But what about Human and his friends underground? Are there still koloss around? Just wonderin'.)
1) Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works.
2) Koloss were bad tempered before Ruin's influence, though he certainly made them worse. They were designed by the Lord Ruler to be aggressive, so aggressive that they would destroy themselves if they got loose and away from him. (This was intentional. Note that he didn't give the spark of humanity in them enough credit, and they managed to overcome this and 'evolve' in a way to keep their species going, even after he died.)
3) There ARE still koloss around, though many of them were vaporized. Human is alive. Sazed took pity on them, however, and they have been transformed. They are now a race that breeds true, like the Kandra, and have different thought processes from what they once had. You'll see more of them in the sequel series.
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1. The metal chunk that Elend ate is intended to be something of a mystery. Much like atium, actually. Suffice it to say that Atium isn't, and never was, what people thought it was.
I intended Allomancy to be much like a real science. People investigate and put things into boxes, trying to describe and understand the world around them. That doesn't mean they always get things right, however.
Let me say this, as I don't want to spoil too much. If that metal Elend ate were fused into specific alloys with certain metals, it could have instead created Mistings of each of the different Allomantic powers. Atium's abilities are not entirely explored yet either.
2. Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy all work as they once did. However, now they are more directly affected by the presence or absence of the mists, which will slowly return to the world but not be of the extent they once were. (The mists are now an extent of Sazed's power, and where they roam, he is better able to influence things. There will also be two kinds of mists.) Note that in the future, Feruchemy powers will start to fracture and split, creating Feruchemical "Mistings."
Yes, this means that in the future series, it will be possible for a person to have one Allomantic power and one Feruchemical power. It will create for some very interesting mixing of powers.
3. The Terris prophesies were created by Preservation before he attempted his imprisonment. He knew that he wouldn't be able to do much for the world after he did what he did, and he foresaw a LOT of what was to come.
4. Way before Alendi's time. Hence the need for the prophesies. But Ruin managed to corrupt them.
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I would like to echo a question that someone beat me to. The way you ended it seemed to leave the door wide open for other books with characters such as Spook and Breeze playing much larger rolls. My question is was the ending planned as just an open-ended ending to make people wonder about what might happen, or was that with the intent of writing more books in mind?
I like it when my characters live on in people's minds. I have no plans right now to write any more books about Spook or Breeze, though what they do in the next period of time will create the history for the next series. However, there's a chance I'll change my mind on this. However, this ending was not set up for another book specifically. I just wanted to tell the best ending I could, and this is how it turned out.
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I know. :)
The real story is that Brandon was writing (or revising?) Way of Kings when Tor offered to buy Elantris. Brandon signed a two-book contract for Elantris and Way of Kings. Then Brandon realized he wasn't in the point in his career yet where he could write Way of Kings the way he wanted to, so while he was supposed to be revising Way of Kings he secretly wrote the first Mistborn book instead, which he then sold to Tor as a trilogy, replacing Way of Kings in the original contract.
But for some reason Amazon already had a listing for Way of Kings, with a release date. Thence the fake reviews.
I've read an early draft of the first book, and it aims to be very epic. (No, Elvis is not involved.) I do wonder, though, whether when it actually comes out, the fake reviews will get attached to its Amazon listing. :)
This is all true. Note that the book would not be name The Way of Kings. Most likely, I'm going to make that the series name. So I guess the book "The Way of Kings" must be some kind of parallel novel or prequel or something... ;)
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Oathshards is out, eh?
You're such a tease, Brandon. All these details about the next series will make everyone hungry for it, and then we'll all have to wait.
Of course, any other book you put out in the meantime will still be awesome, so we should be content, right?
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I don't think Oathshards is as strong a name as "The Way of Kings." Plus, that's really what the series is about.
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I'm surprised no one else has asked but does this new world have atium? If atium was the body of Ruin then it would seem when Sazed took up Ruins power he would have reabsorbed all of the atium. New atium then would be bits of Sazed's new powers and weaken him with each newly formed bead. It would seem then that if atium exists it would be much rarer, and mean that Sazed would not be able to control this process.
I guess I am trying to understand why he would want to allow any Atium to make its way into the hands of people or rather out of his control?
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3) The last two metals are Chromium and Nicrosil. We'll reveal what they do on the Allomancy poster. Suffice it to say that in the next trilogy, the main protagonist would be a Nicrosil Misting. And, to make a Robert Jordan-type comment, what those two metals do should become obvious to the serious student of Allomancy... (It has to do with the nature of the metal groupings.)
If I read the poster correctly, and have the correlations down, these metals are the external enhancement metals.
The simplest idea is that they do to another person what Aluminum and Duralumin do to the Allomancer burning them. If this is true, then Chromium would destroy another Allomancer's metals (useful skill, that, especially in a group of Mistings fighting a Mistborn) while Nicrosil would cause the target's metals that are currently burning to be burned in a brief, intense flash. This could be used either to enhance a group of Mistings or to seriously mess up an enemy Allomancer.
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The other metals do not have exact one-to-one power correlations like that, so it seems more likely to me that they would work differently. It could be like an area effect weakening or enhancing spell. You would want an enhancer in your party, and you wouldn't want to go up against a weakener.
Nicrosil is a rather more complicated alloy than the others. It's an interesting one to pick, rather than something simpler like nichrome (though I guess that's actually a brand name).
My theory about atium was that because Ruin was basically directed entropy, by burning a small part of his body you defeated entropy and could see the future. Does that hold up?
What metal do you alloy with atium to get malatium? If Preservation's body was metal as well, that would be a candidate...
It's a relief to be able to share MY theories now.
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3) The last two metals are Chromium and Nicrosil. We'll reveal what they do on the Allomancy poster. Suffice it to say that in the next trilogy, the main protagonist would be a Nicrosil Misting. And, to make a Robert Jordan-type comment, what those two metals do should become obvious to the serious student of Allomancy... (It has to do with the nature of the metal groupings.)
Good to hear that Marsh is still around. I always kinda liked him. So Nicrosil and Chormium enhance people somehow I'm guessing?
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What I find interesting is that the most useless metal to the Mistborn world (Silver) would actually conduct electricity the best in the advanced world.
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Silver's not totally useless...once you make electrum out of it. :)
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Hi, new here, registered just so I could ask some questions:
1) Will we get a map of what the new world? Or do we have to wait for the next trilogy, whenever that may be?
2) When the Mists come back, will they continue Snapping people?
3) Was Reen named that specifically because its so close sounding to Ruin, or is that a coincidence?
4) Did the Lord Ruler have any Hemalurgic spikes in him? It would seem he'd need to for Ruin to influence him, but it wasn't mentioned. Or did his bracers work as spikes?
5) Was TenSoon more susceptable to Ruin's powers than the other Kandra because he took OreSeur's Blessings?
6) Did Sazed leave information about how his new religion should be run for Spook and the others to find? His note to Spook implies that there is an afterlife...
7) With all the talk about action and reaction and whatnot, will some force form to counter Sazed's new Ruin/Preservation mix? It seems to me like the whole nature of the world can't stand to have one person unnopposed.
8) Does the Well of Ascension still exsit in the new world? Or is it no longer necessary? I assumed that Preservation collected there like Ruin collects in the Pits of Hathsin, so if Atium keeps forming then the well should keep filling...
9) Was Kelsier under Ruin's influence as well? It seems to me that destroying the Pits of Hathsin (and thus preventing Ruin's power from leaking) is something that Ruin would want to happen...
Ok, that's enough questions for now...
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Question about Atium and Duralumin
I was happy when Elend finally burned Duralumin with Atium. I was holding my breath hoping that someone would eventually do it. However we didn't really get any info as to what Elend experienced. Does a Duralumin enchanced atium burn allow a person to see significantly farther into the future. If so, being that Elend's army was dying all around him did he get to see into the afterlife . Also if you could tell us what he saw that would be awesome. Did something he saw make him not want to avoid Marshes strike.
On a similar note if someone bured electrum with duralumin would they get to see significantly into thier own future.
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Another minor question --
What was Zane's hemalurgical power? (Or was he just spiked for control?)
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The other metals do not have exact one-to-one power correlations like that, so it seems more likely to me that they would work differently. It could be like an area effect weakening or enhancing spell. You would want an enhancer in your party, and you wouldn't want to go up against a weakener.
Nicrosil is a rather more complicated alloy than the others. It's an interesting one to pick, rather than something simpler like nichrome (though I guess that's actually a brand name).
My theory about atium was that because Ruin was basically directed entropy, by burning a small part of his body you defeated entropy and could see the future. Does that hold up?
What metal do you alloy with atium to get malatium? If Preservation's body was metal as well, that would be a candidate...
It's a relief to be able to share MY theories now.
My thoughts on atium were very similar, with that entropy thing. Ruin causes more entropy in the world, so I think that works out.
On a completely different note, I was completely astonished that Yomen was an atium Misting. Even more astonishing, I am very certain that "Seer" was a term floating around in the Atium Mistings topic way back when.
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The Kandra.
Yes, they live.
Thank you for that. That brings me a lot of relief to know that things end up as they should. I wouldn't think a sacrifice that large would go unnoticed by Sazed.
It's a pleasure seeing you on the boards talking about the topics. It makes the series a special one for me.
I finished the book about an hour ago.
I adored the book. It held a lot of surprises for me, a relatively new reader to Mistborn.
I enjoyed the twist that Ruin actually improved on Spook as a person. The way his character developed was nicely done. Seeing a person that was so much like Vin (when they first appeared) mature really helped complete the story.
Even though I knew that Vin wouldn't survive a third book (and El without her) I wish that Vin and El could have been around long enough to see everything come to fruition. It seems a bittersweet end that their legacy wouldn't have been passed on by having children or a picture of Vin able to hold a flower.
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Just finished the series. It was awesome. As is everything I've ever read of Brandon's. Can't wait for AMoL and other stories. I've read two versions of Warbreaker (including the latest) and will buy the hardcover when it's released. It'll be money well spent. And Somebody should have a long career ahead of them....
Brandon, I just wanted to confirm that you did have a couple of cameos as Slowswift? Or was that mean to be someone else?
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I'm pretty sure Slowswift is Hoid. The Ars Arcanum says he "bears a striking resemblance to a storyteller", which I take to mean Hoid.
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Hey Brandon, it was a pleasure to meet you in Denver (I was the one asking entirely too many questions).
First of all, phenomenal work. I will write a review up later in a public forum - but this was easily the strongest of your books so far. The bitersweet ending (even with hints that it wasn't quite so bittersweet) was great, and the story came to a interesting and solid conclusion.
I suspect that when - if as I suspect the sales of Mistborn 4 are solid - your next series is greenlit, it may be a while before you come back to these characters. That's great, they are already in a comfortably cubby-hole in my mind. Their purpose finished, the story told.
I am curious if any changes were made to the story after you got AMoL or after the Name of the Wind was published? The style hasn't changed, but the story seemed to flow much better this time around.
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I'm surprised no one else has asked but does this new world have atium? If atium was the body of Ruin then it would seem when Sazed took up Ruins power he would have reabsorbed all of the atium. New atium then would be bits of Sazed's new powers and weaken him with each newly formed bead. It would seem then that if atium exists it would be much rarer, and mean that Sazed would not be able to control this process.
I guess I am trying to understand why he would want to allow any Atium to make its way into the hands of people or rather out of his control?
It's theoretically possible for Atium to appear in the future, but right now Sazed has no plans to release any of it to the people. It is, effectively, now something of myth and legend.
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3) The last two metals are Chromium and Nicrosil. We'll reveal what they do on the Allomancy poster. Suffice it to say that in the next trilogy, the main protagonist would be a Nicrosil Misting. And, to make a Robert Jordan-type comment, what those two metals do should become obvious to the serious student of Allomancy... (It has to do with the nature of the metal groupings.)
If I read the poster correctly, and have the correlations down, these metals are the external enhancement metals.
The simplest idea is that they do to another person what Aluminum and Duralumin do to the Allomancer burning them. If this is true, then Chromium would destroy another Allomancer's metals (useful skill, that, especially in a group of Mistings fighting a Mistborn) while Nicrosil would cause the target's metals that are currently burning to be burned in a brief, intense flash. This could be used either to enhance a group of Mistings or to seriously mess up an enemy Allomancer.
Nicely done.
Ookla is right, the others don't have 1/1 correlations. But I liked this concept far too much not to use it.
In a future book series, Mistborn will also have become things of legend. The bloodlines will have become diluted to the point that there are no Mistborn, only Mistings--however, the latter are far more common. In this environment, a Nicrosil Misting could be invaluable both as an enhancer to your own team or a weapon to use against unsuspecting other Misthings.
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Hi, new here, registered just so I could ask some questions:
1) Will we get a map of what the new world? Or do we have to wait for the next trilogy, whenever that may be?
2) When the Mists come back, will they continue Snapping people?
3) Was Reen named that specifically because its so close sounding to Ruin, or is that a coincidence?
4) Did the Lord Ruler have any Hemalurgic spikes in him? It would seem he'd need to for Ruin to influence him, but it wasn't mentioned. Or did his bracers work as spikes?
5) Was TenSoon more susceptable to Ruin's powers than the other Kandra because he took OreSeur's Blessings?
6) Did Sazed leave information about how his new religion should be run for Spook and the others to find? His note to Spook implies that there is an afterlife...
7) With all the talk about action and reaction and whatnot, will some force form to counter Sazed's new Ruin/Preservation mix? It seems to me like the whole nature of the world can't stand to have one person unnopposed.
8) Does the Well of Ascension still exsit in the new world? Or is it no longer necessary? I assumed that Preservation collected there like Ruin collects in the Pits of Hathsin, so if Atium keeps forming then the well should keep filling...
9) Was Kelsier under Ruin's influence as well? It seems to me that destroying the Pits of Hathsin (and thus preventing Ruin's power from leaking) is something that Ruin would want to happen...
Ok, that's enough questions for now...
1) You'll have to wait, I'm afraid. The future series is still far off. I can't dedicate resources to getting a map drawn up until I begin work on the series officially.
2) No. The mists will revert back to their more neutral state.
3) Coincidence.
4) His arm bracers, which pierced his skin, were his spikes.
5) Yes, he was. However, the Blessing of Presence actually enhanced his mind to make him more resistant, so they balanced out.
6) Sazed didn't immediately leave this, as he was too focused on other things. The next period of time will be difficult for Sazed, as he essentially sees himself as an avatar of deity--the force of Preservation--and not God with an upper case letter. He's still not sure what Truth is 100%. And there is an afterlife, but it's probably not what you're thinking. In other words, Sazed has not touched Heaven or Hell, and actually doesn't yet know what the final beyond contains. He has, however, run into some people who have been sticking around something of a middle place. It's related to the larger cosmology, and I'm afraid that I'll need to RAFO anything further.
7) Ruin and Preservation were not the only Shards of Adonalsium, though they are the only ones on Scadrial at the moment. Sazed's ability to be both at once is actually something I drew from Eastern mythology, where it is believed that the ability to contain two opposing forces at the same time represents ultimate harmony. The Buddha, for instance, was said to have performed the miracle of producing both fair and ice from his hands at the same time.
8 ) The Well (and the small wells in the Pits) is no more. For now at least.
9) There is a short story forthcoming which will deal with Kelsier, the days after he Snapped, his training, and what influence (if any) Ruin had on him. Most likely, this will appear in the Mistborn RPG coming out next year. So I'm afraid that's a RAFO.
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Very interesting about the Nicrosil.
So, if there is no more atium, then that would mean in any future trilogy, there would only be 14 metals, right? Somehow, that doesn't seem right, but maybe that is because it irks me that one quartet to be left incomplete with the absence of atium.
Would it be possible for Sazed to create a replacement metal, by chance, or will the temporal quartet remain inherently empty? It doesn't seem like it's too far of a stretch for Sazed to make more metals: after all, the metal Elend ate was a fragment of Preservation, and now Sazed holds Preservation.
7) Ruin and Preservation were not the only Shards of Adonalsium, though they are the only ones on Scadrial at the moment.
Is "Scadrial" the proper name to refer to the Mistborn world?
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Question about Atium and Duralumin
I was happy when Elend finally burned Duralumin with Atium. I was holding my breath hoping that someone would eventually do it. However we didn't really get any info as to what Elend experienced. Does a Duralumin enchanced atium burn allow a person to see significantly farther into the future. If so, being that Elend's army was dying all around him did he get to see into the afterlife . Also if you could tell us what he saw that would be awesome. Did something he saw make him not want to avoid Marshes strike.
On a similar note if someone bured electrum with duralumin would they get to see significantly into thier own future.
There is much here that I can't say, but I'll give as much as I can. Elend saw Preservation's ultimate plan, and Elend's own part in it. What he saw made him realize he didn't want to kill Marsh, and that his own death would actually help save the world. Like a master chess player, he suddenly saw and understand every possible move his enemy could make. He saw that Ruin was check-mated, because there was one thing that Ruin was not willing to do. Something that both Elend and Vin could do, if needed. And it's what they did.
So, in answer to your question, Elend stayed his hand. This is one of the reasons why I changed my mind and decided that Marsh had to live through the end of the book. Elend spared him; I needed to too.
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Thanks for answering our questions! I'm looking forward to meeting you in a couple weeks at the San Diego signing!
1) How/why did you decide to go with Sazed as the epigraph author? I'll admit I was absolutely positive it was going to be Rashek, if only because of the parallelism (ancient story in epigraphs/modern story in text).
2) What happened to Kwaan? I was half expecting to see him amongst the kandra First Generation.
3) How technologically advanced was the society before the Final Empire? You reference gunpowder, and certainly the current day seems to have technologies like canning and clocks, so how much did Rashek destroy?
4) Do any structures/cities still exist after Sazed's ascention? Or do the survivors need to start from scratch?
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Another minor question --
What was Zane's hemalurgical power? (Or was he just spiked for control?)
Extra power with Pushing on metals. It lent him extremely great precision.
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Just finished the series. It was awesome. As is everything I've ever read of Brandon's. Can't wait for AMoL and other stories. I've read two versions of Warbreaker (including the latest) and will buy the hardcover when it's released. It'll be money well spent. And Somebody should have a long career ahead of them....
Brandon, I just wanted to confirm that you did have a couple of cameos as Slowswift? Or was that mean to be someone else?
Thank you very much for the kind words!
Slowswift is an homage to Grandpa Tolkien. A study of his personality will reveal why that name was chosen for him.
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I'm pretty sure Slowswift is Hoid. The Ars Arcanum says he "bears a striking resemblance to a storyteller", which I take to mean Hoid.
Hoid appears in that same chapter, but Vin doesn't meet him. Something he does spooks her. She's just too darn observant for her own good.
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I am curious if any changes were made to the story after you got AMoL or after the Name of the Wind was published? The style hasn't changed, but the story seemed to flow much better this time around.
Actually, no. This one was finished off back before I knew anything of AMoL or before I'd read Name of the Wind. Hopefully, the smoothing is a result of me trying to work out kinks in my storytelling ability. I'm learning to distance out my climax chapters, for instance. (I think I've I'd have written this book years ago, I'd have tried to overlay Spook's climactic sequence with the ending ones, for instance, which would have been a mistake.)
Also, of the three books, I worked the hardest on this one. Choosing that ending--even though I'd planned it for some time--was very difficult. I knew that it would anger some readers. I also knew that it was the right ending for the series.
I'm glad it worked for you.
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Very interesting about the Nicrosil.
So, if there is no more atium, then that would mean in any future trilogy, there would only be 14 metals, right? Somehow, that doesn't seem right, but maybe that is because it irks me that one quartet to be left incomplete with the absence of atium.
Would it be possible for Sazed to create a replacement metal, by chance, or will the temporal quartet remain inherently empty? It doesn't seem like it's too far of a stretch for Sazed to make more metals: after all, the metal Elend ate was a fragment of Preservation, and now Sazed holds Preservation.
7) Ruin and Preservation were not the only Shards of Adonalsium, though they are the only ones on Scadrial at the moment.
Is "Scadrial" the proper name to refer to the Mistborn world?
On a replacement metal: That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Suffice it to say that what the characters think they understand about the metals, they don't QUITE get right. If you study the interaction between the temporal metals, you might notice an inconsistency in the way they work...
Scadrial is indeed the name of the planet.
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Alendi's "Piercings of the Hero"?
The other lake in Alendi's bumps?
Spook gets repaired, does Cett get his legs?
Was there ever anything to Reen's obsidian?
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If you study the interaction between the temporal metals, you might notice an inconsistency in the way they work...
Uh-huh. That was already noticed by theorizers in the forums here. Gold works like Malatium and Electrum works like Atium. Yet they're on opposite corners of the metal square.
Seriously, Brandon, you need to ask Howard to warpgate-dupe you, so you can write these books faster. We need at least three of you, maybe four. Your speed for any one series is great, and we're blessed you can do that one better and actually write two series at a time, but three is stretching you a bit thin, and I count books from 8 different series you're writing that I want more of (Alcatraz, AMoL, Warbreaker, Dragonsteel, MistbornII+, Scribbler, Way of Kings, Dark One) plus those other books you told me about. And I do wish I had the ability to read books you haven't written yet! (Though honestly, if I did have that power, a Scribbler sequel is what I would read first. That book was exciting.)
Was there ever anything to Reen's obsidian?
Reen's obsidian wasn't even a red herring, and you guys spent so much darn time on it! Amazing!
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First, Mists causing Snapping, Sazed as HOA. I called it. Them. Both of them.
:P
What did happen to Cett?
Who were Ruin and Preservation? I mean, when they died, they had bodies, like Vin. And you went as far as to describe their hair color (Red and Black, respectively). Preservation even had a prominent nose. Why describe their dead bodies, if they weren't at one time mortals themselves? They created humans, but were at one time human themselves?
I'm sad Ten Soon never got to talk to Vin again, since it was apparent they both missed each other.
Lemme guess, the "Mistborn" following Vin was actually Ruin, since Elend never actually saw him, and he disappeared every time Vin got close? Why did Ruin give off Allomantic Pulses? Because Preservation did and they're two sides of the same coin? Allomancy is of Preservation, so I figured that's why he did...
A modern world update for a future mistborn trilogy prolly wouldn't involve as much metal, unless mistings were rare, which apparently will not be the case. I'm thinking more like plastics, ceramics, fiberglass, and silicon. I mean for cars and guns and all that.
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Regarding Hemalurgy:
1) In an annotation from book 1, it is mentioned that The Lord Ruler needed all 3 magic systems in order to do what he did. I always assumed that it meant his Hemallurgy enhanced his allomancy. Did Marsh get a double power, or is the Feruchemy-Allomancy combo enough? ( a sidebar to this question is whether or not stacking abilities is possible through hemalurgy).
2) Did Vin's mother actually have a spike, or was she so crazy that one wasn't necessary for Ruin to influence her?
3) When the Kandra get their spikes back, do they remember who they were, or have they been "rebooted"?
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I am curious if any changes were made to the story after you got AMoL or after the Name of the Wind was published? The style hasn't changed, but the story seemed to flow much better this time around.
Actually, no. This one was finished off back before I knew anything of AMoL or before I'd read Name of the Wind. Hopefully, the smoothing is a result of me trying to work out kinks in my storytelling ability. I'm learning to distance out my climax chapters, for instance. (I think I've I'd have written this book years ago, I'd have tried to overlay Spook's climactic sequence with the ending ones, for instance, which would have been a mistake.)
Also, of the three books, I worked the hardest on this one. Choosing that ending--even though I'd planned it for some time--was very difficult. I knew that it would anger some readers. I also knew that it was the right ending for the series.
I'm glad it worked for you.
i have to admit, i am one of those angered. i will be so glad when this cliche of killing off the heroes will finally pass. i escape to fantasy for the happy ending. if i wanted to be depressed id grab a 3 dollar bottle of mad dog 20/20 and drink it all and contemplate my mundane life. i cant spend much time reflecting on the book because of the mental picture of vin and elend dead in a field keeps popping up instead. they didnt even get a chance to reproduce.
now outside of the horrible ending (which wasnt suprising in the least because it is so common to kill the heroes) i enjoyed them. i absolutely cannot wait to read your books written 10 years from now. you can definitely pick up the improvement in transitions and character development in each book ive read from you. im quite often reminded of david eddings although im sure plenty would disagree. and while eddings isnt one of my favorite writers to be at his level (to me) so early in your career leads me to believe great things will be coming.
i would like to ask you one thing to consider when writing endings. fantasy is an escape, please dont ruin it with such depressing endings. when you have had the opportunity to look upon your dead wife in her coffin, reading about others dying isnt fun at all. it is absolutely terrible. happily ever after.
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flinn,
I understand your pain. I really do. However, Vin and Elend's fates fit the end of the story. Preservation sacrifices itself to stop Ruin. We see this concept throughout the story.
Now if they just died at the end in a dagger-in-the-reader's-heart kind of way, then yes, we'd all have problems with the ending, but that is not what happened.
Another thing we have to understand is that HOA is a different story from FE and WOA. BS does a masterful job of crafting 3 completely separate stories within his trilogy. (MAD PROPS, DUDE!) Most fantasy/SF writers write one long (sometimes painfully long, sometimes ridiculously long to the point I don't care any more) story and divide into as many books as it takes to tell the story.
Vin was the main character in FE (a very well-done archtypal hero story). Elend and Vin (or is it Sazed and Vin.... maybe we should just say Vin, Elend and Sazed) are the main characters of WOA. Certainly the POV is more scattered than in FE. WOA deals with Idealism and the nature of belief as well as the way they can both be so easily manipulated - too clever! Finally we have HOA. By this time we cannot say that the story is about Vin anymore (there are several main characters - I can't say who had the most screen time). If we read the story trying to force it to be about Vin, then we are doing the story a disservice. When we get to the end we'll be disappointed. But, when we read the story for what it is, then the ending makes perfect sense.
Excellent story, Brandon. You dealt with prime metaphysical forces, you quantified them to an extent that your readers could understand how they worked, and then you crafted a story around how these forces collide and eventually marry - because, in the end, they need each other to survive. Seriously. Wow.
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I also thought the ending was excellent. Vin and Elend may have physically died, but Sazed writes in his note to Spook that he has spoken to them both, and they are happy where they are. This does two things. First, it proves that at least in the Mistborn universe, there is an afterlife. That makes death a lot more bearable. More importantly, Sazed talks about learning how to put souls back into bodies. If Brandon chooses to, he could have any of the characters in this series be reborn in later books. He probably won't, but the option is there.
On an unrelated note, I wonder if Ruin appeared to Rashek, or just spoke in his mind? I must admit I was a big detractor of the misunderstood Lord Ruler theory, but now that I know I was wrong, I wonder how long it took for Ruin to corrupt him, and how he did it. I bet he regretted having to kill Alendi, so wouldn't it be sadistic for Ruin to take that form when speaking to Rashek?
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I was also a big fan of the ending. The world gets reborn, so I find that a wonderfully happy ending for the original depressing setting we got in Final Empire. In the grand scale of depressing endings, this was pretty light (at least in the way that we don't see a lot of death immediately, just focusing on Vin, Elend, and Sazed). It made sense for them to die. Elend's duralumin + atium was an excellently spectacular method for getting rid of the atium. While I loved Elend--he was my favorite character--his death was just so perfect and essential, the ending could not be anything different. And the only thing Vin could do to defeat Ruin was to sacrifice herself, but that is pretty obvious, really. Opposite forces "annihilating"? Yup, it's awesome.
Really, I would've liked to see more death at the end, like showing more of the kandra dying and stuff. Maybe I'm heartless that way. I think Brandon was not going for a surprise where Vin and Elend die. That's not the surprise, in my opinion; the surprise is what is meant by "Hero of Ages". It's very similar to where Kelsier died in MB1--the death was not the narrative surprise in that one, but his Plan was.
I'm just a huge fan of massive, epic conflict. It's the end of the world, and I loved every minute of it.
I also thought the ending was excellent. Vin and Elend may have physically died, but Sazed writes in his note to Spook that he has spoken to them both, and they are happy where they are. This does two things. First, it proves that at least in the Mistborn universe, there is an afterlife. That makes death a lot more bearable. More importantly, Sazed talks about learning how to put souls back into bodies. If Brandon chooses to, he could have any of the characters in this series be reborn in later books. He probably won't, but the option is there.
Actually, what I got from that is Sazed can't put the souls back into the bodies.First, Mists causing Snapping, Sazed as HOA. I called it. Them. Both of them.
:P
Who were Ruin and Preservation? I mean, when they died, they had bodies, like Vin. And you went as far as to describe their hair color (Red and Black, respectively). Preservation even had a prominent nose. Why describe their dead bodies, if they weren't at one time mortals themselves? They created humans, but were at one time human themselves?
Yes, yes you did Qarlin. Good job :P *bows*
I think there is another story to be told here. From some of Brandon's responses, he references a "greater cosmology" and Shards of Adonasium. There's more going on here than we know. I expect this greater cosmology is something that will be prevalent in most of Brandon's works, creating a mythology of his own which spans between series. I love it.
Seriously, Brandon, you need to ask Howard to warpgate-dupe you, so you can write these books faster. We need at least three of you, maybe four. Your speed for any one series is great, and we're blessed you can do that one better and actually write two series at a time, but three is stretching you a bit thin, and I count books from 8 different series you're writing that I want more of (Alcatraz, AMoL, Warbreaker, Dragonsteel, MistbornII+, Scribbler, Way of Kings, Dark One) plus those other books you told me about. And I do wish I had the ability to read books you haven't written yet! (Though honestly, if I did have that power, a Scribbler sequel is what I would read first. That book was exciting.)
Was there ever anything to Reen's obsidian?
Reen's obsidian wasn't even a red herring, and you guys spent so much darn time on it! Amazing!
"Dark One"? Sounds interesting, yet I don't think that one has been mentioned on the boards until now.
To be fair, I was right in saying that Reen's obsidian meant absolutely nothing. Of course, I had my own gaffes like my way too extensive Hemalurgy and mist-causes-Allomancy thing, but at least I knew that Reen's obsidian wasn't important. Ha! In your face!
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I also left out the Elantris sequel from that list. Dark One is a YA that Brandon is over halfway through writing. I haven't read any of it, but he did put it up on his progress bar section for several months.
Yeah. My thought when Brandon said only two of the Shards were on the planet at the time was—which other planet of Brandon's ARE they on right now? I assume Hoid ties into this. I once asked Brandon what the heck was up with Hoid, and he said, "You don't really want to know," and I said, "You're right. I don't." (Meaning that I want to RAFO because it wouldn't be as fun any other way.)
I told you guys that I was sure some people would hate the ending. I told Brandon too, after I read it. I loved the ending (I get the most out of reading when a book moves me emotionally, which this definitely did), but knew it was dangerous. I was one of the people who suggested to Brandon that he should emphasize the afterlife thing more (which he did by adding a sentence or so, to great success, I think). Though that is also dangerous, since some readers could see it as a cop-out; it could make Vin's and Elend's sacrifices seem less meaningful. But I don't think it does, because to them at the time it was completely meaningful, and they didn't know there would be an afterlife. (At least, Elend didn't know it from duralumining atium, did he? Vin for sure did not know.)
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Actually Choas, I believe he said that he couldn't put the souls back in yet. He didn't say it was impossible, just that he was as of yet unable to accomplish the feat.
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Here's another question:
In one of the bumps, Sazed mentions a discussion between Vin and Ruin in which Vin asks Ruin why she was chosen to release him from the Well. Did this discussion occur in the in-between afterlife where Vin, Elend, Kelsier, etc., were, or did it occur off-screen while Vin and Ruin were busy stopping each other from affecting the world?
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Here's another question:
In one of the bumps, Sazed mentions a discussion between Vin and Ruin in which Vin asks Ruin why she was chosen to release him from the Well. Did this discussion occur in the in-between afterlife where Vin, Elend, Kelsier, etc., were, or did it occur off-screen while Vin and Ruin were busy stopping each other from affecting the world?
I was fairly sure she asked it while she was a prisoner of Yomen, but I could be wrong.
Another question came to mind:
Were the epigraphs meant to be in order? If so, reading them all straight through it seems Sazed keeps going off on tangents, seems more stream of conciousness than we're used to seeing from Saze...
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A few more questions, mostly minor, one major:
1. What was Vin _supposed_ to do at the end of WoA? How exactly did not-using the power, end up releasing Ruin? I still don't get how that all worked. Can you explain it?
Minor q's:
2. If Sazed is the HoA, then who is the Announcer?
3. Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium -- it's fueled by _both_ gods' bodies?
4. Why exactly do some spike removals kill (dual eye, or central spike) but most don't?
5. Did Zane get spiked intentionally? Did someone else (Straff?) know about hemalurgy?
6. Very minor question -- was Reen a misting or mistborn, and if so, did he end up as a spike in an inquisitor somewhere?
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First off, great book, great series. I had been anxiously awaiting this last book for several years. It didn't disappoint.
Just one question. How was Vin able to take and release Preservation in the Well of Ascension while wearing her mother's earing which was a Hemalurgic spike?
At the start of chapter 49 it says this: "The power in the Well was of Preservation, and an Inquisitor could only have taken it by first removing his Hemalurgic spikes."
I assume anyone who was wearing a Hemalurgic spike would be included in this group, not just an Inquisitor. For the same reasons that the mists repelled against Vin while she wore the earring. Or was it the fact that released it rather than used it that allowed her to do it? I'm still not quite clear on how that whole sequence of events worked in the Well of Ascension.
Thanks!
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She took the earring out. Page 570 of the WoA hardback.
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First off, WHAT A GREAT STORY!!! Though I am both sadden and disappointed that it has , alas, come to a completion...or has it??? I think it may be pointless to do a spin-off, but who else could pull off such a masterful storyline than Brandon?? Of course, it is HIS story...but I hope that we get to see the New Empire, and who knows maybe we, the fans, can convince him, Brandon, to bring back the gang! I for one would love to see Kel and El go at it!!!
Second, I am a bit confused as to why Vin and El had to die. I could careless about the other characters, but it seems to me that the more dynamic the character, the more likely his or her life will be in jeopardy! And Saze, though it fits the stereotypical conclusion, he actually was the best person to become god! I just don't see why he didn't get the full understanding about the prophesy until the end!
Third, is there anyone out there other than me that would pay to see this in theaters??
Xan'deis
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She took the earring out. Page 570 of the WoA hardback.
Ah.. now don't I feel foolish. Thanks for the reference.
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I just wanted to add in my two cents and say it was absolutely brillaint... and I think I'm starting to be able to breath again (crying that much hurts).
I said on the 14th that no matter how the ending was done if Vin died it'd be too cliche, but it ended up working out really well. It's cliche that she died, but the manner and the reason wasn't cliche at all.
I expecially loved how minor details (the regligions taught) ended up playing such a HUGE part in the end. That was a fun little throw back to the rest of the series.
I also really loved that there's an "cameo" for Kel at the end... that made me really happy to see.
I can't think of any questions that haven't been asked... just over all, I wanted to say brilliant book.
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That was a wonderful book. I almost wanted to see Elend as the Hero in order to hear him try to beat Ruin in a scholarly debate (jk, sorta).
Going off on a complete tangent, when Ruin's dead body shows up, my reaction was to think of one of the poets of Saffron Park. I doubt there is any intended connection, but it was cool none the less.
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2) Marsh is alive. I changed this from when I talked to Ookla. I realized some things about his use of Allomancy that would allow him to survive. Actually, he is immortal. He can pull off the same Allomancy/Feruchemy trick that the Lord Ruler did. (And he knows it too, since he was there when Sazed explained how it was done in Book One.) He's actually the only living person who actually knows this trick for certain. (Though there's a chance that Spook, Ham and Breeze heard about it from Vin and the others.) So yes, if there were another series, Marsh would make an appearance.
I thought that trick required atium and involved burning the atium. With all the atium gone and Sazed not making any more, it would therefore not be possible even for a full mistborn/feruchemist. Am I wrong, is Sazed providing atium specifically for Marsh to allow a friend and valuable servant to survive, or what?
In a future book series, Mistborn will also have become things of legend. The bloodlines will have become diluted to the point that there are no Mistborn, only Mistings--however, the latter are far more common. In this environment, a Nicrosil Misting could be invaluable both as an enhancer to your own team or a weapon to use against unsuspecting other Misthings.
I take it either Spook did not have children or Sazed made him a reduced-strength Mistborn rather than giving him the full potency of the 9 originals and Elend?
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Brandon, I'd like to see a timeline of when you fleshed out the parts of the cosmology we know about. I'd imagine Allomancy came before you fit it into the bigger picture, right? What was your method, come up with a cool image of hammering spikes through a living being, figure out how to integrate that into a larger picture, and then think about the implications of your new cosmology? Or what?
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I take it either Spook did not have children or Sazed made him a reduced-strength Mistborn rather than giving him the full potency of the 9 originals and Elend?
Remember that the world at the end, apart from the underground stuff, is basically a tabula rasa. Their supplies and whatnot will give them a jumpstart on a new civilization, but it's still going to take a lot of centuries to get civilization back to the level it was in these books, and then a couple more centuries to get it to a modern-day civilization level.
Also, how many people did Sazed make mistborn? How many Allomancers were left in the world? In the Final Empire, the nobles intermarried, keeping the power to themselves, and it still got diluted over time. I gather the class separation will be wiped out this time around, so the gene pool will be much wider. That leads to more distribution of the power, but less concentration.
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So looking back on the 'Who would you be' thread, why would Ookla be Yomen as opposed to another character?
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Thanks for answering our questions! I'm looking forward to meeting you in a couple weeks at the San Diego signing!
1) How/why did you decide to go with Sazed as the epigraph author? I'll admit I was absolutely positive it was going to be Rashek, if only because of the parallelism (ancient story in epigraphs/modern story in text).
2) What happened to Kwaan? I was half expecting to see him amongst the kandra First Generation.
3) How technologically advanced was the society before the Final Empire? You reference gunpowder, and certainly the current day seems to have technologies like canning and clocks, so how much did Rashek destroy?
4) Do any structures/cities still exist after Sazed's ascention? Or do the survivors need to start from scratch?
1) I chose Sazed because I felt that Rashek would have just been too obvious. I wanted this book to look toward the future, particularly with the ending. The epigraphs have been a fun and unique part of these books, and I wanted to make sure the ones in the third book were as good as the ones in the first two books. Also, there's a theme--there's always a secret in the epigraphs. In the first one, it's that Rashek was really the Lord Ruler. In the second book, it was the textual changes hinting that Ruin was manipulating the prophesies. In the third book, I wanted to have an equally surprising reveal to the epigraphs, and knew that it had to be something different from the other two. Hence Sazed. (Plus, I really wanted to dig into answering some world questions that I felt couldn't be answered by anyone other than Sazed.)
2) Kwaan went into hiding, and he was eventually discovered and executed by Rashek. He wasn't among the First Generation, though he would have been if he hadn't turned against Rashek. Rashek kept the plate, however, just as he kept Alendi's logbook. Partially because even then, Rashek was going a little mad, but partially because of the reminders about his old life they contained.
3) They had steam technology, and were just about to hit the railroad era. Something near early 1800s in our world.
4) Start from scratch! Good thing there is building materials in some of the storage caches....
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2) Kwaan went into hiding, and he was eventually discovered and executed by Rashek. He wasn't among the First Generation, though he would have been if he hadn't turned against Rashek.
I'm assuming you meant Alendi hunted him down because he turned against Alendi. Or did Kwaan also turn against Rashek?
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Alendi's "Piercings of the Hero"?
The other lake in Alendi's bumps?
Spook gets repaired, does Cett get his legs?
Was there ever anything to Reen's obsidian?
1) This is part of the manipulation Ruin did during the classical era on Scadrial, before the coming of the Lord Ruler. Piercings, and Hemalurgy, were part of the world before the coming of Allomancy in its modern form. Then, they were seen as a means of communicating with deity--which, indeed, they were. Ruin manipulated this to make sure any Hero of Ages who came would be under his influence. The reference is included mostly to indicate that yes, Alendi was under Ruin's influence. He ignored Rashek, though. (At least, right up to the moment when everything went 'wrong' for Ruin, when Rashek killed his chosen Hero of Ages.)
2) A manifestation of Ruin's gathered consciousness, much like the dark mists in book two. The lake was still around in Vin's era, but had been moved under ground. (Note that the Well is a very similar manifestation. You've also seen one other manifestation like this....)
3) To give humankind the best shot at survival, Sazed repaired all genetic defects and physical ailments in the people who were in the storage caches. So yes, Cett can walk. He was so shocked by this that he spent the entire epilogue walking around in the cavern, marveling.
4) Reen's obsidian was a memento from his father, the parent he didn't share with Vin. I carried a small piece of obsidian like this for many years. It has no story function other than being important to Vin as a keepsake.
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If you study the interaction between the temporal metals, you might notice an inconsistency in the way they work...
Uh-huh. That was already noticed by theorizers in the forums here. Gold works like Malatium and Electrum works like Atium. Yet they're on opposite corners of the metal square.
Ah. I wondered if that had been noticed.
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1) Who were Ruin and Preservation? I mean, when they died, they had bodies, like Vin. And you went as far as to describe their hair color (Red and Black, respectively). Preservation even had a prominent nose. Why describe their dead bodies, if they weren't at one time mortals themselves? They created humans, but were at one time human themselves?
2) I'm sad Ten Soon never got to talk to Vin again, since it was apparent they both missed each other.
3) Lemme guess, the "Mistborn" following Vin was actually Ruin, since Elend never actually saw him, and he disappeared every time Vin got close? 4) Why did Ruin give off Allomantic Pulses? Because Preservation did and they're two sides of the same coin? Allomancy is of Preservation, so I figured that's why he did...
5) A modern world update for a future mistborn trilogy prolly wouldn't involve as much metal, unless mistings were rare, which apparently will not be the case. I'm thinking more like plastics, ceramics, fiberglass, and silicon. I mean for cars and guns and all that.
Numbers added above by me.
1) RAFO. (Sorry.)
2) Remember that TenSoon, with spikes, can communicate more easily with those on the other side....
3) Yes.
4) Manifestation of the awesome power he held, mixed with Vin's increased ability to sense these things. Allomantic pulses are like a ripple of sound in the fabric of creation itself--the power of creation being used, creating a drum beat to those attuned to it. Ruin created a similar beat when his conciousness was near.
5) Yes and no. For the rich, this would be an option. But much like using metal weapons in the Mistborn world, it isn't always an option for everyone. You will see both.
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Regarding Hemalurgy:
1) In an annotation from book 1, it is mentioned that The Lord Ruler needed all 3 magic systems in order to do what he did. I always assumed that it meant his Hemalurgy enhanced his Allomancy. Did Marsh get a double power, or is the Feruchemy-Allomancy combo enough? ( a sidebar to this question is whether or not stacking abilities is possible through Hemalurgy).
2) Did Vin's mother actually have a spike, or was she so crazy that one wasn't necessary for Ruin to influence her?
3) When the Kandra get their spikes back, do they remember who they were, or have they been "rebooted"?
1) He used Hemalurgy to pull off his most dramatic effects. Marsh didn't need them, but it makes things much easier.
2) She was crazy enough on her own.
3) They remember, though some things are vague or foggy in their minds. Depends on the individual.
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i would like to ask you one thing to consider when writing endings. fantasy is an escape, please dont ruin it with such depressing endings. when you have had the opportunity to look upon your dead wife in her coffin, reading about others dying isnt fun at all. it is absolutely terrible. happily ever after.
I understand your anger. I wrote the ending that felt most appropriate to me for this book and series. I didn't find it depressing at all, personally. But people have reacted this way about every ending I've written.
I won't always do it, I promise. But I have to trust my instincts and write the stories the way they feel right to me. I didn't 'kill off' Vin and Elend in my mind. I simply let them take risks and make the sacrifices they needed to. It wasn't done to avoid cliché or to be part of a cliché, or to be shocking or surprising, or to be interesting or poetic--it was done because that was the story as I saw it.
I will keep this in mind, though. I know it's not what a lot of people want to read. Know that I didn't do it to try to shock you or prove anything. And because of that, if a more traditionally happy ending is something that a story requires, I'll do that--even if it means the people on the other side of the fence from you will point fingers at me for being clichéd in that regard as well.
If it helps, realize that one of the reasons I added the lines in Sazed's note was to let the characters live on for those who wanted them to live on. I ALMOST didn't have Spook even discover the bodies, leaving it more ambiguous.
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You've also seen one other manifestation like this....
Such as...this?
The "lake" was barely ten feet deep—more like a pool. Its water was a crystalline blue, and Raoden could see no inlets or outlets.
If that's what you're hinting at...I never thought of the connection before! I just kept thinking of Aether of Night, and never thought of this pool at all.
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Here's another question:
In one of the bumps, Sazed mentions a discussion between Vin and Ruin in which Vin asks Ruin why she was chosen to release him from the Well. Did this discussion occur in the in-between afterlife where Vin, Elend, Kelsier, etc., were, or did it occur off-screen while Vin and Ruin were busy stopping each other from affecting the world?
Yes, as has been pointed out, that's in the text--unless I cut it during editing for pacing issues. If I did, the conversation still happened, but it just didn't get shown on screen.
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Another question came to mind:
Were the epigraphs meant to be in order? If so, reading them all straight through it seems Sazed keeps going off on tangents, seems more stream of conciousness than we're used to seeing from Saze...
They are in order, but there are large gaps of text left out. So you're not getting the whole thing, just the 'good parts' versions. That's why it feels jumpy.
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You've also seen one other manifestation like this....
Such as...this?
The "lake" was barely ten feet deep—more like a pool. Its water was a crystalline blue, and Raoden could see no inlets or outlets.
If that's what you're hinting at...I never thought of the connection before! I just kept thinking of Aether of Night, and never thought of this pool at all.
I'm also thinking that the Dor in Elantris is another Shard of Adonasium. Certainly in the Elantris world, where the Dor came from is rather ambiguous, which I expected it would be. Of course, if other Shards of Adonasium do exist, the Dor could have come from that source.
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You've also seen one other manifestation like this....
Such as...this?
The "lake" was barely ten feet deep—more like a pool. Its water was a crystalline blue, and Raoden could see no inlets or outlets.
If that's what you're hinting at...I never thought of the connection before! I just kept thinking of Aether of Night, and never thought of this pool at all.
I'm also thinking that the Dor in Elantris is another Shard of Adonasium. Certainly in the Elantris world, where the Dor came from is rather ambiguous, which I expected it would be. Of course, if other Shards of Adonasium do exist, the Dor could have come from that source.
If that's the case, what's the counter-Dor Shard?
Here's my questions from the book:
1. Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (Minus Atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or Atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts?
2. Are Atium and the External Temporal Pulling metal really the same?
3. Are there any Allomantic metals we have not seen yet, besides Chromium and Nicrosil?
4. Does every metal have a Feruchemical and Hemalurgic property? If not, are there metals which have Feruchemical or Hemalurgic properties which do not have Allomantic ones?
5. When Vin is feeling out The Lord Ruler's final message plate, she finds a circle with a dot at the center. What does that mean?
I think that's all for now. I'm sure I'll have more soon though.
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A few more questions, mostly minor, one major:
1. What was Vin _supposed_ to do at the end of WoA? How exactly did not-using the power, end up releasing Ruin? I still don't get how that all worked. Can you explain it?
Minor q's:
2. If Sazed is the HoA, then who is the Announcer?
3. Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium -- it's fueled by _both_ gods' bodies?
4. Why exactly do some spike removals kill (dual eye, or central spike) but most don't?
5. Did Zane get spiked intentionally? Did someone else (Straff?) know about hemalurgy?
6. Very minor question -- was Reen a misting or mistborn, and if so, did he end up as a spike in an inquisitor somewhere?
1. What was she supposed to do? Well, this is difficult to answer, since the prophesies have been changed and shifted so much. Originally, the prophesies intended for a person to go take the power every thousand years and become a protector of mankind for a period of time. Someone to keep an eye on Ruin in Preservation's absence and watch over the world as he would have done. Imagine an avatar who arrives every thousand years and lives for their lifetime blessing the people with the power of Preservation, renewing Ruin's prison, and generally being a force for protection. (Note that Ruin wouldn't have gotten out if the prison wasn't renewed, he'd simply have been able to touch the world a little bit more.) Obviously, it changed a LOT during the years that Ruin was playing with things.
What should she have done? Well, Ruin's release was inevitable. Even if she hadn't let him go, the world would have 'wound down' eventually. The ashfalls would have grown worse over the centuries, and the next buildup of the Well might not have come in time for them to do anything. Or, perhaps, mankind would have found a way to adapt. But Ruin was going to get himself out eventually, so the choice Vin made was all right. There weren't really any good choices at this point. She could have decided to take the power and become a 'good' Lord Ruler, trying to keep the world from falling apart. Of course, she would have had to make herself immortal with Hemalurgy to make that work right. And since she was already tainted, chances are good she wouldn't have ended up any better than the Lord Ruler himself.
2. The Announcer was a fabrication of Ruin intended to reinforce the person HE wanted to be the Hero.
3. The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.
Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)
So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak--though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that--using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself--to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.
4. For the same reason that a bullet through one part of the body will kill you, but getting shot somewhere else won't. The physical form of a person who has undergone a Hemalurgic transformation is no longer what we think of it. The direct connection to Preservation starts keeping them alive. (Imagine stapling someone's soul to another person's soul, their life essence, then stapling that to the power of creation itself, giving you a conduit directly to power, letting you leech it and steal it.) That power keeps you alive, despite the wounds. Some of the time, the other staples are enough to keep you alive, even if one is pulled out. Others are too important.
5. Zane spiked himself. It was...a very twisted and messy process. Note that Ruin tries to get Spook to do something similar. It's much easier for him to work with someone to get them to spike themselves than it is to arrange the exact circumstances where someone gets spiked.
6. Reen had no Allomantic powers, I'm afraid. His father was skaa. (He was Vin's half-brother, if you recall.) And yes, he is dead.
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2) Marsh is alive. I changed this from when I talked to Ookla. I realized some things about his use of Allomancy that would allow him to survive. Actually, he is immortal. He can pull off the same Allomancy/Feruchemy trick that the Lord Ruler did. (And he knows it too, since he was there when Sazed explained how it was done in Book One.) He's actually the only living person who actually knows this trick for certain. (Though there's a chance that Spook, Ham and Breeze heard about it from Vin and the others.) So yes, if there were another series, Marsh would make an appearance.
I thought that trick required atium and involved burning the atium. With all the atium gone and Sazed not making any more, it would therefore not be possible even for a full mistborn/feruchemist. Am I wrong, is Sazed providing atium specifically for Marsh to allow a friend and valuable servant to survive, or what?
In a future book series, Mistborn will also have become things of legend. The bloodlines will have become diluted to the point that there are no Mistborn, only Mistings--however, the latter are far more common. In this environment, a Nicrosil Misting could be invaluable both as an enhancer to your own team or a weapon to use against unsuspecting other Misthings.
I take it either Spook did not have children or Sazed made him a reduced-strength Mistborn rather than giving him the full potency of the 9 originals and Elend?
1. Marsh has the bag of Atium that KanPaar sent to be sold, as well as several nuggets in his stomach. So, I guess 'immortal' is the wrong phrase. He's got the only remaining atium in the world and can keep himself around for a long, long while--but he WILL eventually run out. Unless Sazed does something.
2. Spook is a reduced power Mistborn.
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2) Kwaan went into hiding, and he was eventually discovered and executed by Rashek. He wasn't among the First Generation, though he would have been if he hadn't turned against Rashek.
I'm assuming you meant Alendi hunted him down because he turned against Alendi. Or did Kwaan also turn against Rashek?
No, I meant that he turned against Rashek. Remember, the members of the First Generation were offered immortality in exchange for their Hemalurgy . They had to make this choice for all of the world's Feruchemists. Because his uncle had been the one who gave Rashek the chance to become the Lord Ruler in the first place, Rashek blessed him and included him in the decision. (Speaking directly into his mind along with the others during Rashek's moment of ascension.)
Rashek was the only one who turned down this offer, calling it a betrayal of who they were as a people. Rashek could have just made him one anyway, but in a moment of anger, he tried to destroy Kwaan--which he couldn't do, not with Preservation's power. As the other Feruchemists changed, Kwaan remained the same. Rashek eventually hunted him down and killed him.
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This is fun.
The note to Spook states that Sazed hasn't yet figured out how to put souls back into bodies. Is he going to learn that skill eventually (I'm expecting a RAFO here, but I figured I'd ask anyway)?
Does Sazed get to see Tindwyl again now that he is a deity?
Did we already find out what metal is combined with Atium to make Malatium?
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How many moons circle Scadrial, ie. when the planet was moved were the moons moved as well?
Was there anything on the other side of the planet or did the entire population live on one side?
Pushing/Pulling use magnetics? Would a compass work on Scadrial?
Did Gemmel survive into the series or did he perish before MB1?
Would Hemalurgy work on animals?
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First off, WHAT A GREAT STORY!!! Though I am both sadden and disappointed that it has , alas, come to a completion...or has it??? I think it may be pointless to do a spin-off, but who else could pull off such a masterful storyline than Brandon?? Of course, it is HIS story...but I hope that we get to see the New Empire, and who knows maybe we, the fans, can convince him, Brandon, to bring back the gang! I for one would love to see Kel and El go at it!!!
Second, I am a bit confused as to why Vin and El had to die. I could careless about the other characters, but it seems to me that the more dynamic the character, the more likely his or her life will be in jeopardy! And Saze, though it fits the stereotypical conclusion, he actually was the best person to become god! I just don't see why he didn't get the full understanding about the prophesy until the end!
Third, is there anyone out there other than me that would pay to see this in theaters??
Xan'deis
Well, I'd sure pay to see it in theaters! ;)
To be more serious, I think this series--particularly the first book--is quite cinematic. I'd love to sell movie rights on it, assuming I can find the right people to work with. So if you have any contacts, let me know.
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I also really loved that there's an "cameo" for Kel at the end... that made me really happy to see.
Glad you liked the book, Rainbow!
You may want to note that the moment Preservation dropped out and let the last of his consciousness die, someone was waiting in the Cognitive Realm to seize the power and hold on for a short period until Vin could take it up more fully. You'll find him using it to whisper in moments of great stress in the book, to one person in specific in two places. (I'll bet someone on here has already found them.)
He never could just let things well enough alone....
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Well, I'd sure pay to see it in theaters! ;)
To be more serious, I think this series--particularly the first book--is quite cinematic. I'd love to sell movie rights on it, assuming I can find the right people to work with. So if you have any contacts, let me know.
I have a camcorder; we could toss dummies through the air to simulate aerial combat. Who wants metal spikes pounded into their skull?
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You'll find him using it to whisper in moments of great stress in the book, to one person in specific in two places. (I'll bet someone on here has already found them.)
He never could just let things well enough alone....
Off the top of my head, once would be letting Spook know that Kel considered him friend.
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Brandon, I'd like to see a timeline of when you fleshed out the parts of the cosmology we know about. I'd imagine Allomancy came before you fit it into the bigger picture, right? What was your method, come up with a cool image of hammering spikes through a living being, figure out how to integrate that into a larger picture, and then think about the implications of your new cosmology? Or what?
Boy, this is a hard one to ask because it's been such a LONG process. There were bits of all of this popping around in my head almost twenty years ago, so it's going to be hard to define where what fit into place when.
Allomancy and Feruchemy were originally planned separately. I linked them together into this book when I realized that the 'focus' items that could store attributes could be metal, and therefore work wonderfully with the Mistborn book I was planning.
Hemalurgy came from the image of Inquisitors first, then developed as a need to integrate it in with the other two in a way that evoked the power of "Ruin" rather than the power of Preservation. I figured that Ruin would steal, and it was a great way to add a third magic without having to overload people with a whole new set of powers. The process of writing this series, since I did all three books together, was an interesting one, and I made a lot of connections as I went. Some of the latest things on the timeline were figuring out how to fit atium and the Preservation nuggets into the already built framework. But I don't know if I can give you an exact list. Partially because there would just be too many spoilers in it.
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You've also seen one other manifestation like this....
Such as...this?
The "lake" was barely ten feet deep—more like a pool. Its water was a crystalline blue, and Raoden could see no inlets or outlets.
If that's what you're hinting at...I never thought of the connection before! I just kept thinking of Aether of Night, and never thought of this pool at all.
Both are accurate, but the first is what I meant, as most people here don't have access to Aether.
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You've also seen one other manifestation like this....
Such as...this?
The "lake" was barely ten feet deep—more like a pool. Its water was a crystalline blue, and Raoden could see no inlets or outlets.
If that's what you're hinting at...I never thought of the connection before! I just kept thinking of Aether of Night, and never thought of this pool at all.
I'm also thinking that the Dor in Elantris is another Shard of Adonasium. Certainly in the Elantris world, where the Dor came from is rather ambiguous, which I expected it would be. Of course, if other Shards of Adonasium do exist, the Dor could have come from that source.
I will RAFO from here on the other Shards of Adonalsium, as it would be better for me not to give spoilers. Please feel free to speculate. Readers have met four shards other than Ruin and Preservation.
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the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.
*choke*
I have to go look through my old files...
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In the later mistborn books, will duralumin become useless without Mistborn to burn it? (Unless hemalurgy is still around, but it seems like it would be hard enough to find duralumin mistings, let alone spike them)
On a related note, it must really suck to be an aluminum misting.
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On a related note, it must really suck to be an aluminum misting.
Not for very long, lol. ;)
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You've also seen one other manifestation like this....
Such as...this?
The "lake" was barely ten feet deep—more like a pool. Its water was a crystalline blue, and Raoden could see no inlets or outlets.
If that's what you're hinting at...I never thought of the connection before! I just kept thinking of Aether of Night, and never thought of this pool at all.
I'm also thinking that the Dor in Elantris is another Shard of Adonasium. Certainly in the Elantris world, where the Dor came from is rather ambiguous, which I expected it would be. Of course, if other Shards of Adonasium do exist, the Dor could have come from that source.
If that's the case, what's the counter-Dor Shard?
Here's my questions from the book:
1. Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (Minus Atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or Atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts?
2. Are Atium and the External Temporal Pulling metal really the same?
3. Are there any Allomantic metals we have not seen yet, besides Chromium and Nicrosil?
4. Does every metal have a Feruchemical and Hemalurgic property? If not, are there metals which have Feruchemical or Hemalurgic properties which do not have Allomantic ones?
5. When Vin is feeling out The Lord Ruler's final message plate, she finds a circle with a dot at the center. What does that mean?
I think that's all for now. I'm sure I'll have more soon though.
1. Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.
2. You are on to something.
3. RAFO. (Sorry.) Let's just say that when Sazed said there are two metals you haven't found, he MIGHT not have been referring to a metal and its alloy, but two base metals. Who knows. Gods can be frustratingly ambiguous in times like that.
4. Every metal has a Feruchemical, an Allomantic, and a Hemalurgic property. The godly metals each also do something else. There are several interesting Feruchemical powers yet to be discovered and revealed in the next series. Feruchemy is less widely understood because there were so few practitioners in the modern era, and a lot of the time they were too afraid of capture to really study and use their powers.
5. No big reveal here. That was to mean the center of the empire, which allowed one to place the map (which was very abstract) in reference to the empire.
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This is fun.
The note to Spook states that Sazed hasn't yet figured out how to put souls back into bodies. Is he going to learn that skill eventually (I'm expecting a RAFO here, but I figured I'd ask anyway)?
Does Sazed get to see Tindwyl again now that he is a deity?
Did we already find out what metal is combined with Atium to make Malatium?
1. RAFO. (Sorry, but this is plot sensitive for a future series.)
2. Sazed has yet to learn how to touch the distant other side, where all souls go. He is able to see into the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms, and any spirits or souls who remain there, rather than passing on. Generally, you have to be tied to the Physical Realm in specific ways to not pass on. As for where Tindwyl is, I will have to leave this up to you to imagine for now.
3. I might have said somewhere in the series. I can't remember. It's gold.
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Well, I'd sure pay to see it in theaters! ;)
To be more serious, I think this series--particularly the first book--is quite cinematic. I'd love to sell movie rights on it, assuming I can find the right people to work with. So if you have any contacts, let me know.
I have a camcorder; we could toss dummies through the air to simulate aerial combat. Who wants metal spikes pounded into their skull?
Ooh, me me me!
And I can provide some props . . . I expect to be 2/3rds of the way done with my Mistcloak by tonight.
Now for more questions.
1. Do certain aspects of the Shards (Cognitive, Physical, Spiritual) correspond to specific states of matter? (Solid, liquid, vapor?) If so, which ones are which?
2. Do the symbols at the head of each section and book relate to anything, or were they just chosen at random?
3. Whatever happened to the bag of atium beads Zane buried? Are they still there?
Also, it's kind of ironic that Miyabi was at least partly right about his planar theory and none of us believed it.
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How many moons circle Scadrial, ie. when the planet was moved were the moons moved as well?
Was there anything on the other side of the planet or did the entire population live on one side?
Pushing/Pulling use magnetics? Would a compass work on Scadrial?
Did Gemmel survive into the series or did he perish before MB1?
Would Hemalurgy work on animals?
1. Scadrial has no moons. I think I let slip the phrase "he's mooning over her" somewhere in the third book, but that is just a translation quirk to English. These people have no concept of a moon. There is a very bright star patch, however, covering much of the sky--much brighter than on Earth.
2. There is life on the other pole. I will RAFO any other questions about it, though.
3. A compass would work, but remember that the Final Empire is set at the north pole of Scadrial, but not necessarily at the magnetic north pole. These things are complicated, but just assume that it works the same way it would here on Earth.
4. This will be answered in the short story in the Mistborn RPG, if all goes as planned.
5. Yes, it would.
And I want to note that I'm flying to LA tonight after my signing for an appearance at a trade show, so this weekend probably won't see any more answers here. I'll try to do a few on Monday before I leave for Vegas.
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And people were asking what we'd have to do in this forum when there weren't any other wild theories to discuss. Now you tell us we've barely scratched the surface.
I knew you had Hoid popping up everywhere, but only realized that after reading Warbreaker and the first few Liar of Partinel chapters. I had no idea you had so many other connections between these series. Now I'm guessing that ALL your adult fantasy novels exist in the same universe (though...I'm not sure about Way of Kings...I need to check it later...). (I'm guessing Alcatraz and Scribbler are not connected.)
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Brandon, I believe in one of Sazed's epigraphs, he actually called it "Adonasium" rather than what you are referring to here, which is "Adonalsium". I'm thinking that's just a typo, right?
I don't suppose you could tell us which book series of yours will tell us more about Adonalsium, would you? You know, just so us theorizers on the forum know when to properly theorize about these things...
And people were asking what we'd have to do in this forum when there weren't any other wild theories to discuss. Now you tell us we've barely scratched the surface.
I knew you had Hoid popping up everywhere, but only realized that after reading Warbreaker and the first few Liar of Partinel chapters. I had no idea you had so many other connections between these series. Now I'm guessing that ALL your adult fantasy novels exist in the same universe (though...I'm not sure about Way of Kings...I need to check it later...). (I'm guessing Alcatraz and Scribbler are not connected.)
You can count on me to make an overly complex theory of everything that has little basis in reality. I'm good at that.
Another question, Brandon. Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadriel?
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Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadriel?
Are you saying you can't burn metals and do amazing things? Maybe it was just the rest of us on the forum.
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Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadriel?
Are you saying you can't burn metals and do amazing things? Maybe it was just the rest of us on the forum.
Mostly I was just wondering if Allomancy could translate into any of Brandon's other books in a hypothetical scenario.
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I can see it now. An army of Koloss and Steel Inquisitors taking on the city of Elantris.
So I have a theory question. If Hoid is in Warbreaker, is there a Shard?
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Readers have met four shards other than Ruin and Preservation.
Have we met these four by name, or just by influence? I can't think of a name that would go with the one that the Elantris lake is a manifestation of.
Hoid could be one? I know nothing his purpose other than that he shows up in lots of different books, sometimes begging and sometimes telling stories. Since most of these series happen on different planets (though two of them may happen on the same planet as each other), I'm assuming he has mad planet-hopping skills.
...Nightblood...
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This is a MB3 spoiler thread, not an Alcatraz one, so I won't get into details, but after just finishing the 2nd book, I think a shard reference could be there. The graph that explained the Talents is surprisingly similar to the Alomancy one.
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I haven't read Dragonsteel in years, but those three words are pretty unforgettable.
“There are three Realms of ex. . .existence. The Spiritual, and the cog. . .natib. . .”
“Cognitive,” Master corrected. “The Second Realm is the Cognitive.”
“The Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical,” Jerick repeated, reading from the first page of his book. “Of these, the Spiritual is. . .dominant, followed by the Cognitive, and finally the Physical. The Spiritual Realm is the Realm of the di. . .divine, where the [REDACTED] reside, and it is this Realm that controls all.” Finishing the paragraph, Jerick looked up eagerly. “You see, Master, I have been practicing.”
Sorry, I couldn't resist. (The rest can be interlibrary loaned from the BYU library.)
There were bits of all of this popping around in my head almost twenty years ago, so it's going to be hard to define where what fit into place when.
Twenty years ago? At the same time Jerick was an elf?
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I have a rather simple question. What was Spook's real name? He gives a easternese slang term that becomes his name, then he goes by his Kel given nick. So, what was his birth name? (Yes, I wonder about random things like that.)
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So are all these epic novels in the same universe? Elantris, Mistborn, Dragonsteel, all that?
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How did Inquisitors find Atium mistings?
Before, Inquisitors had supernatural healing. How did they get the Feruchemists for the spike? Were the keepers not so hidden after all?
And this is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?
How much control do allomancers have over pushing and pulling metals?
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Ok, I am new write and reading forums, so I'm a little slow on it, so please be kind.....
1.) What if RAFO?
2.) Who is HOID? I have read Elantris and all 3 Mistborns but don't remember the name, am I missing something?
3.) Dragonsteel, is that by Brandon or L. Yep, I am soooo confused.
4.) These Shards everyone is talking about...what are they?
I would be glad for someone to eliminate my ignorance on these matters....
As far as Kel's grabbing the power to Pres to hold for Vin, was it him that whispered to Spook, when Spook was unconscious, to get his message to Vin?
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Ok, I am new write and reading forums, so I'm a little slow on it, so please be kind.....
1.) What if RAFO?
That means "Read and Find out". Don't feel bad, I had to look that one up too.
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2. Hoid:
Page 445 of the Elantris hardback (http://books.google.com/books?id=-SAEj1W77I4C&pg=PA445&dq=Hoid)
Page 269 of the Mistborn hardback (http://books.google.com/books?id=NQomV_TUsOcC&pg=PA269&dq=Hoid)
Page 231 of the Warbreaker 4.2 PDF (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/warbreaker4.2.pdf)
Chapter 1 of The Liar of Partinel (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/LiarCh1v3.doc) (book 1 of the Dragonsteel/Aether series)
This is not an exhaustive list, but he pops up (unobtrusively and generally forgettably) from time to time. We don't know what his overarching purpose is (besides being a way for Brandon to tease us).
3. Dragonsteel:
The book Brandon wrote right after Elantris. (He also started coming up with a very early version of the story when he was a teenager but didn't get very far.) Dragonsteel was the first book of Brandon's that I (and a few other TWGers who knew Brandon at the time) read, making us Brandon converts. He used the book as his Honors English Thesis, and the one bound copy is available at the BYU Library (http://catalog.lib.byu.edu/). Last year Brandon decided to go back to the Dragonsteel world to start a longer series of which the original Dragonsteel book, heavily rewritten, would make up book 3 (or something like that). The Liar of Partinel, which Brandon has finished writing and of which he released one chapter on the website, is the first volume of the new Dragonsteel series (which also uses elements from another of his cannibalized novels, Aether of Night). When Brandon decides that an early book he has written just can't be revised into a workable form, he cannibalizes it, taking the good parts and characters and adding other elements to get a better ultimate result—elements from four different books (Mistborn Prime, Final Empire Prime, Mythwalker, and Aether of Night) were cannibalized into Mistborn and more of Mythwalker was cannibalized into Warbreaker.
The first draft of The Liar of Partinel needs a lot of revision, but Brandon is busy and won't get back to it for a while. Because of the high-profile nature of A Memory of Light, he wants his next book released after that to be the start of a major epic; The Liar of Partinel was meant as a sort of backdoor pilot into the Dragonsteel series rather than the true start of a major epic. So Brandon is going to concentrate instead on Way of Kings as his next big series.
Dragonsteel itself is also a super-valuable metal (that starts off as a liquid that distills in a certain place rather like atium does in the Pits of Hathsin) in the novel Dragonsteel. (Note: Anything known about the old drafts of Dragonsteel is subject to change; it's not canon until the book actually comes out. Warbreaker's current form is final-candidate canon.)
4. Shards:
That's the big mystery that we have found out about only in the last couple days. Brandon has apparently used the same cosmological underpinnings for all of his adult fantasy novels that are out so far (and possibly Alcatraz too, but that seems problematic to me since it's set in our world, more or less). However, most of the characters in these novels are not aware of these cosmological underpinnings at all; if they are aware, it is of how the cosmology affects their own planet only. Aspects of Adonalsium (the Creator?) have been broken into shards, two of which are Ruin and Preservation, the only two shards "on Scadrial at the moment" (which may indicate Hoid is not a shard himself, though he is obviously related to the hidden overarching plot somehow). Brandon says we have met four other shards in his published books (including Warbreaker). The dissolving pool in Elantris is a manifestation of one of these shards like the Well of Ascension was a manifestation of Preservation.
"Shards" are also important throughout Way of Kings. However, it's been years since I read it last and I don't know if these are the same type of shards or are at all related. Way of Kings has its own complex theology and, while it's possible it ties into the overarching cosmology of the other books, I wouldn't pigeonhole Brandon into only writing books in one universe. He has too many creative ideas to pigeonhole himself. We will have to RAFO.
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FirstRainbowRose & Ookla,
Thanks for the insight and answers!!!!
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Just to have a little fun,
If we could make Mistborn 1-3 into movies, who would get to play:
Kelsier
Vin
Lord Rule
Sazed
Dockson
Breeze
Ham
Club
Spook
OreSeur
TenSoon
Elend....
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Just to have a little fun,
If we could make Mistborn 1-3 into movies, who would get to play:
Kelsier
Vin
Lord Rule
Sazed
Dockson
Breeze
Ham
Club
Spook
OreSeur
TenSoon
Elend....
This has actually been talked about in an old thread I'm sure Brandon wouldn't mind you ressurecting:
http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=4476.0
(If you talk about that there then you won't be hyjacking this thread into something other than what he intended...)
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Readers have met four shards other than Ruin and Preservation.
Have we met these four by name, or just by influence? I can't think of a name that would go with the one that the Elantris lake is a manifestation of.
Hoid could be one? I know nothing his purpose other than that he shows up in lots of different books, sometimes begging and sometimes telling stories. Since most of these series happen on different planets (though two of them may happen on the same planet as each other), I'm assuming he has mad planet-hopping skills.
...Nightblood...
Thank you for giving those extra Hoid references, Ookla. I didn't remember those Elantris or MB1 references, though I distinctly remember him in Warbreaker because he was on there for a bit more than a page :P Hoid definitely made it in the 6.1 Warbreaker PDF (in case you haven't read anything past 4.2. 6.1 was my first Warbreaker read-through).
I thought Nightblood was explained sufficiently for my tastes in Warbreaker, so I doubt that it is a Shard, but I've been plenty wrong before. Also, I don't know if Hoid could even be a Shard. Certainly he has mean planet-hopping skills, but I don't know what purpose a celestial storyteller would have in this universe. He doesn't really have the same kind of power as Ruin or Preservation did, so normally I would rule him out right off the bat. But it is possible that these Shards come in many shapes, not just in the near-deific quantity Ruin or Preservation had. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say Hoid is a Shard... but, then again, I don't have any ideas for what those four other Shards are.
Maybe Hoid is just a traveler trying to find remnants of Adonalsium and stories about them. He doesn't need to be a shard, I suppose.
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Wow, I only noticed Hoid in Final Empire and Hero of Ages, but I can see him being in Elantris as well. My thoughts is it's just a sort of joke, like in Pheobe Gilman's childrens books she always includes items or characters from other books in her illustrations.
This Shards thing is so cool, I'd totally love to see Raoden and Kelsier fight, even though that's impossible. In Elantris I'd say there are two shards, the lake and the dor. The Dor is the power life, and the lake is the power of rest. Similar but not the same as ruin and Preservation. The way the Dor can be harnessed in a variety of ways makes me even more certain that it is a shard.
I think Kelsier would beat Raoden though. Raoden could do pretty much anything, like automatically kill Kelsier with an aon, but they are too slow, Kell would have him down before he finished drawing.
I think most of my Questions have been answered, thanks Brandon!
1) One Question is this. If Gold is used to make Malatium, couldn't malatium also be gold's compliment?
2)I also wondered if you could explain that circle in the cave some more, I didn't quite get it.
I was sure Vin was the hero right up until the end, even though originally before I read the book, I was sure it would be Elend or Sazed. But then the epilogue author started naming people off, so I knew it wasn't them. But it only mentions Vin as 'she,' when talking about how she got her spike. I was sure one of the epigraphs was going to be: "And that girl is me."
The Sazed thing totally made sense in hindsight, I can't believe I didn't figure it out. And we were right about the "on the arms," bit being the part Brandon was referring to, good find Vintage!
I'm a little sad that the lake doesn't come into it more. But the Mist spirit and the Deepness were BOTH Preservation. That was cool.
3) So here's my last question. If there ARE people on the other side of the world, did Vin kill them all by placing the sun on their side, or do they have they're own Ruin/Preservation battle going on over there as well? Do they also have allomancy feruchemy and hemalurgy?
So those three numbered points are my questions, great great book, it was simply amazing!
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To me the dor seems too primal to be a shard. Though "ruin" and "preservation" are pretty primal concepts as well, so I could be wrong. I suppose not every shard must currently have a personality.
On another note, wouldn't "breaking" just be the same as "ruin"?
The personalities don't seem integral to the shards, since Ruin's and Preservation's personalities died and Sazed took up both shards. If that's the case, Nightblood could be a shard without knowing it; the shard could have gotten attached to him during his making by accident somehow. The sequel is to be called Nightblood, so I think there's a lot more to his story than was revealed in Warbreaker.
If Gold is used to make Malatium, couldn't malatium also be gold's compliment?
Sure. See your own alternate reality/see someone else's alternate reality is a fine pair. But if atium doesn't really belong in the grid, then why would an alloy of atium belong in the grid?
Also, if electrum isn't gold's complement, that would mean it is silver's complement, since electrum is silver and gold. But silver doesn't do anything. Supposedly.
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I have a question (I knew there was one when I was done. I just couldn't remember it.) Is Sazed effected by the metal blindess, or can he see thing written in metal?
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Oops... thanks Nessa!!!
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From Comatose (moved from a non-spoiler thread to this one):
Reaves....
You were right!
And it was Presrevation in the tent.
It's weird to think that our first theory was that Preservation was the mist spirit, but then we were distracted, and our original hunch proved to be correct.
Also from Comatose (Also moved from another thread):
I was sort of right about hemalurgy (YES!) I got the examples wrong, but I did get the power and normal attribute stealing bit right, so that's awesome! I told you guys the feruchemist/misting thing was correct when it first came up!
that's my I told you so.
I was wrong about the last two metals, but I did say metals absorb a God's power, which is kind of like the whole body of the gods thing.
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Not the expert here, but I don't think Sazed would be effected by metal blindness. If I'm right the reason Ruin and Preservation couldn't "see" metal was because they were forces of power, and metal is a source for power. If you think of it this way: Ruin and Pres reside in Sazed, kinda like a brain...two halves making one whole. But Sazed has his own consciousness, so he more or less draws on the powers of ruin and pres, but they don't consume him or overwhelm him...
Guys n Gals...if I got that wrong please pick it apart.....
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Spoiler post moved from a different thread:
Time and Again says:
I'm bringing this up, and I don't want to spoil anybody but I was reading the latest update to MB3 and I saw this. WARNING: SPOILERS!
"Vin burned Electrum. This created a cloud of images around her, shadows of possible things she could do in the future. Electrum, the Allomantic complement of gold. Elend had started calling it "poor man's atium." It wouldn't affect the battle much, other than to make her immune to atium, should the Inquisitor have any."
This is exactly what I was talking about, and I am absolutly giddy with joy that I called it. I know, I know, I'm hurting myself from pating my back so hard. I beleive I even said Poor Mans Atium. Hm.. how sweet it is. Now, back to my reading.
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I'd first like to say that this series was fantastic. I was exceptionally pleased with how you tied everything together in this final book of the trilogy.
This series has the best world-building, magic system, and over-arching plot of any epic fantasy I have ever read. I think George R.R. Martin is still the master of creating memorable characters, developing them, and having them interact with each other. Other authors, like Hobb and Rothfuss, are better at evincing emotion. You are an amazing writer yourself.
That being said, I have a couple suggestions for you.
The first contradicts itself, so take it for what it is. I would suggest that you write how you feel the story should be written. Getting inspiration from someone is one thing, but changing your work because some people want a happy ending or dark ending takes away from the purity of writing. The part you added in at the end where Sazed let Spook know Vin and Elend were happy in the afterlife really stuck me like a thorn. I think it was apparent how happy they were together in life and how necessary their sacrifices were. That would have been enough for me.
My other suggestion is more of a plea really. Please don't extend this series just to capitalize on it. If you really feel there is more story to be told, then tell it. I, for one, thought the ending would have been perfect if allomancy, hemalurgy, and feruchemy would have faded from existence as their corresponding gods did. It would have been rather romantic to have people start over with a new "normal" world.
Congratulations again on completing a masterful work!
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So I have a couple of questions....
I loved the book, it was all great UNTIL Vin and especially ELEND died. I can see why you did it, but I was crying so hard when Vin confirmed Elend was dead. I actually had an urge to burn the books right then and there and pretend it had never happened. Either way, I continued reading and then found some sliver of hope when Sazed said he hadn't figured out how to restore the souls YET, he said he would get better at it.
1)Does that mean that he might someday, maybe, hopefully (pretty please) bring them back to life? I suspect that you might not answer, but can I atleast hope? Cause if anyone deserved to live a full NORMAL life it was Vin and Elend. Besides, it would ROCK if Elend and Kelsier ever got to meet each other......
Awe man.....i'm still crying over Elend....Is it wrong I get so attatched to characters? Its just that Elend and Vin got so little time together. It's so sad. Which reminds me: You mentioned, when someone asked about sazed meeting twindyl again, that he hadn't because he hadn't reached that space where souls were and the ones that were trapped in the in between were the ones that had a connection with either the physical or the concious world. Those weren't the exact words but it was something like that that IMPLIED that Vin, Elend and Kel were somehow still connected with the earth because unlike twindyl the hadn't progressed past that in between place.
2) Am I right and maybe going somewhere, or am I talking total nonsense and simply trying to cope with the loss of Elend?
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Awesome Book. Seriously, probably the best I've ever read.
And to think I was worried about what we'd theorize over! Now, for my "I told you so" moment:
I totally called the "future of the world on his arms" thing. Yes, Chaos, you may bow. That was my topic. Ha!
That said, that's really the only thing that I was dead on. There were others that I was close, but the rest, I was WAY off.
So, a quick question: Why can Vin fuel Elend's atium-burning, even though Atium is Ruin's Body and Vin is using Preservation? Or did I misread that and he was just burning atium and had run out of everything else?
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No, Elend was burning atium and had run out of everything else. At least, that was how I read it. It wouldn't help to get rid of the atium if Elend wasn't burning it, I think.
So, Brandon, it's Sunday now. Did Hero of Ages sell enough to become a bestseller?
*crosses fingers*
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Brandon, I believe in one of Sazed's epigraphs, he actually called it "Adonasium" rather than what you are referring to here, which is "Adonalsium". I'm thinking that's just a typo, right?
I don't suppose you could tell us which book series of yours will tell us more about Adonalsium, would you? You know, just so us theorizers on the forum know when to properly theorize about these things...
And people were asking what we'd have to do in this forum when there weren't any other wild theories to discuss. Now you tell us we've barely scratched the surface.
I knew you had Hoid popping up everywhere, but only realized that after reading Warbreaker and the first few Liar of Partinel chapters. I had no idea you had so many other connections between these series. Now I'm guessing that ALL your adult fantasy novels exist in the same universe (though...I'm not sure about Way of Kings...I need to check it later...). (I'm guessing Alcatraz and Scribbler are not connected.)
You can count on me to make an overly complex theory of everything that has little basis in reality. I'm good at that.
Another question, Brandon. Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadriel?
Well, I guess this means that the proofreaders did not add the "L" when I marked the error on the manuscript. (sigh). Yes, the correct spelling is adonalsium. I will try to get this fixed for the paperback, but I've been trying to get that blasted steel/iron error in the back of book one fixed for two years now. . .
If it helps, Sazed would probably under-pronounce the "L" as that letter, like in Tindwyl's name, is said very softly in terris.
As for your other question, you will have to wait and see. Now, you could search my old books for clues, but I would caution against this. While there are hints in these, they are not yet cannon. Just as I changed how things were presented in the mistborn books during editing, I would have fixed a lot in these books during revision. Beyond that, reading them would give big spoilers for books yet to be released. White sand, dragonsteel, and way of kings in particular are going to be published some day for almost certain. (though in very different forms). Aether of night should be safe, as should final empire prime and mistborn prime, though of those three, only aether is worth reading, and then only barely. (it is still pretty bad).
I will post more later. They are calling my flight. (I'm at LAX)
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I'm a big fan of Brandon's work. This book is one of his best so far, and it really affected me. Some parts had me in tears, others had me pacing around at midnight.
Might as well try my questions:
1: It seemed that Kelsier was fluent in Spook's street dialect, and even conversed with Spook in the dialect at one point. So I'm assuming Kelsier knew what Lestibournes really meant, and being who Kelsier was, giving him a new name probably was more about building the boy up, rather than just the length. That said, why Spook? If he was trying to boost Spook's self confidence, why use a name like that?
2: Given that Kelsier seems be keeping an eye out for everything from the beyond, how does Kelsier feel about how every turned out? Has his opinion on Elend changed? How did he react upon learning Lord Ruler's true nature? I'm guessing this may be a RAFO situation, but I might as well ask.
3: A question about Goradel. His end was very tragic, and was one of the things that had me in tears. The thing that really twisted the knife into me, is that he died that horrible death thinking that he had failed. When everything he tried to survive failed, his final act was to try to prevent the message into falling into Ruin's hands, but even that was futile. With those who seem to be active in the great beyond, did Goradel ever find out about what his actions helped to bring about? Was he ever thanked for his actions?
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Brandon, I believe in one of Sazed's epigraphs, he actually called it "Adonasium" rather than what you are referring to here, which is "Adonalsium". I'm thinking that's just a typo, right?
I don't suppose you could tell us which book series of yours will tell us more about Adonalsium, would you? You know, just so us theorizers on the forum know when to properly theorize about these things...
And people were asking what we'd have to do in this forum when there weren't any other wild theories to discuss. Now you tell us we've barely scratched the surface.
I knew you had Hoid popping up everywhere, but only realized that after reading Warbreaker and the first few Liar of Partinel chapters. I had no idea you had so many other connections between these series. Now I'm guessing that ALL your adult fantasy novels exist in the same universe (though...I'm not sure about Way of Kings...I need to check it later...). (I'm guessing Alcatraz and Scribbler are not connected.)
You can count on me to make an overly complex theory of everything that has little basis in reality. I'm good at that.
Another question, Brandon. Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadriel?
Well, I guess this means that the proofreaders did not add the "L" when I marked the error on the manuscript. (sigh). Yes, the correct spelling is adonalsium. I will try to get this fixed for the paperback, but I've been trying to get that blasted steel/iron error in the back of book one fixed for two years now. . .
If it helps, Sazed would probably under-pronounce the "L" as that letter, like in Tindwyl's name, is said very softly in terris.
As for your other question, you will have to wait and see. Now, you could search my old books for clues, but I would caution against this. While there are hints in these, they are not yet cannon. Just as I changed how things were presented in the mistborn books during editing, I would have fixed a lot in these books during revision. Beyond that, reading them would give big spoilers for books yet to be released. White sand, dragonsteel, and way of kings in particular are going to be published some day for almost certain. (though in very different forms). Aether of night should be safe, as should final empire prime and mistborn prime, though of those three, only aether is worth reading, and then only barely. (it is still pretty bad).
I will post more later. They are calling my flight. (I'm at LAX)
Random thought time:
If Allomancy (A power of Preservation.) feels "right" to Vin while she's in the mists, (Areas where Preservation's power is concentrated.) would a power not of Preservation feel "wrong" to her? Like perhaps a certain mysterious planet-hopping "beggar" who is humming to himself one misty night?
Hmmmm . . .
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......wooooooooooooooah......
I still can't stop thinking that in my head. It's all that's really coming to mind at the moment.
I made the stupid mistake of finishing the book this afternoon in a public place. Therefore I looked like a complete moron as I burst into tears when Elend died. I think it was a good ending. I'm still not totally decided on that. I'm just in shock.
It's just so amazing how the books progressed, developing into this huge cosmic epic that I never expected from just reading The Final Empire a year ago. I guess in some sense what I'm feeling is a slight sense of... awe, maybe? I want to know how he comes up with stuff. I mean seriously, talk about not just writing another fantasy series.
But I'm also shocked that no one else seemed to have figured out that Sazed was the Hero of Ages. I thought it might be him when I started the book, but it could as easily have been Vin or Elend. But at about a third of the way through, page 215 to be exact, there was this line from Sazed thinking in his head:
"I am, unforunately, in charge."
Sound familiar?
"I am, unfortunately, the Hero of Ages."
No one else would have used the same wording as Sazed did when he was thinking to himself. I have to assume that was intentional on Brandon's part. It was very subtle... I'm actually surprised I noticed.
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I made the stupid mistake of finishing the book this afternoon in a public place. Therefore I looked like a complete moron as I burst into tears when Elend died. I think it was a good ending. I'm still not totally decided on that. I'm just in shock.
I was at work and got to about 100 pages from the end with an hour and a half left until I could go home, so I decided I had best wait, and I'm glad I did. (To explain, it took me about an hour to finish, with a few interuptions during that time.)
It actaully hit me at the same time, which I found kind of funny.
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I think the ending hit everyone hard, regardless of what they say and who they are, maybe minus Brandon...since he is Adonalsium..so to speak....creator of Mistborn Universe....anyway, I think the fact that Brandon made all his characters soooo real, it would be hard not to become attached. I think some people would have like to have had the LOTR ending where we got to say bye to our "friends" is a nice and peaceful manner, but I think Vin and the gang would have preferred it this way...they were "balls to the walls" type people, heck Kelsier probably was jealousy of Elend, in the manner and dramatic fashion Elend faced his end, not to mention the emotionally charged response it had on Vin. I mean, she didn't do that for him (Kelsier)...lol!
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I would suggest that you write how you feel the story should be written. Getting inspiration from someone is one thing, but changing your work because some people want a happy ending or dark ending takes away from the purity of writing. The part you added in at the end where Sazed let Spook know Vin and Elend were happy in the afterlife really stuck me like a thorn. I think it was apparent how happy they were together in life and how necessary their sacrifices were. That would have been enough for me.
During the drafting process, anything and everything is subject to change. Brandon is a pragmatic writer; there are lots of changes he makes based on feedback from his agent, his editor, and alpha readers whose input he values. Yet he won't make any change if he thinks it won't work.
Ultimately, Brandon is answerable to the fans. People won't buy a book they don't like. Or rather, if they buy a book and don't like it, they're unlikely to buy more books from the same author, and unlikely to recommend it to their friends. Of course it's impossible to please everyone, and Brandon isn't trying to please everyone, but as he talks about a lot on Writing Excuses, it's important to fulfill the promises you make to the reader. You don't want your reader to feel betrayed.
Back in 2006 when I finished the book, I wrote to Brandon, "Can I hate you? You killed Vin and Elend. But you made a profound statement. You turned a cool adventure fantasy series into something else. I can't help but be impressed." He responded, This is the thing I'm worried about. Vin and Elend have been dead in my mind for quite some time, at least since the beginning of the second book. The trick is, will readers go along with it? . . . I'm hoping for responses like yours--emotional ones that see how the ending works, hate it anyway, but are satisfied with the series. . . . As for the spiritual side of the book, I did want to imply something with the last few paragraphs of the book, implying that Sazed has communicated with Elend, Vin, and Kelsier--so that there is an afterlife. I might want to emphasize this, however, considering your response.
My response: "I trust you to take what's useful to you from my comments and put out an excellent final product even if it doesn't satisfy all my pet desires. I'm glad the kandra will get an ending. But being too specific about an afterlife ending for Elend and Vin can be dangerous, since it could tie things up TOO neatly and could torque other readers off."
So, Death Magnetic, your response was predicted, but I think it's very telling that the poster after you swung in the opposite direction. It's a very fine line to walk. Personally, I think Brandon pulled it off. I think some people here and there (on both extremes of the spectrum) are going to hate this ending (though how someone could be underwhelmed by it, like one Amazon reviewer, is a bit beyond me—but hey, there are millions of people in this world, and millions of opinions). But I think more will be so touched by it that they will tell their friends. I personally do like happy endings, but I also like to be touched emotionally by a book. This book really does it for me. It's tragic, and sad, but happy at the same time. It's very difficult to do well, but I think Brandon pulls it off.
But anyway, Brandon did do what he wanted to do with this ending. It just took some feedback from different people to verify that and tweak the words so they brought across what Brandon wanted.
My other suggestion is more of a plea really. Please don't extend this series just to capitalize on it. If you really feel there is more story to be told, then tell it. I, for one, thought the ending would have been perfect if allomancy, hemalurgy, and feruchemy would have faded from existence as their corresponding gods did. It would have been rather romantic to have people start over with a new "normal" world.
First off—I loathe endings like that, where the magic goes away. I think that's often breaking a promise to the reader. For example: Roald Dahl's Matilda. Yeah, I understand the thematic reason for that, but I don't want a book to tell me, as its ultimate message, "In a normal world, super powers have no place." Duh. I'm not reading fantasy to validate rationalistic philosophy or become better adjusted to face my own real life. I read it for the sense of wonder. If you're writing a fantasy novel, don't tell me, "Oh, the wonder's all gone now." (I'm glad the movie version of Matilda changed the ending so she can have a good life and keep her powers.)
Second, Brandon has always planned more Mistborn books. He has more to explore cosmologically, and the magic system is just so darn cool. Here's what I said: "The two metals will surprise you. Um, yeah? I'll bet. Does this mean an opening for some kind of sequel? But how could there be a sequel to this book? Could it possibly be as epic? You'd need an alien invasion or something, to compete against a god." Brandon replied (two years ago):
I actually would like to do three MISTBORN trilogies, but I don't know if I'll be able to get away with it. My goal would be to write them in different times. For instance, this is the ancient MISTBORN trilogy. The next one would take place in the same world, only five hundred years later, with a modern-style setting. The final trilogy would be set in the same world, only have an sf/spacefairing setting.
It's just a kind of wacky idea I came up with. Still, it intrigues me. I've never seen an author do something like that--update the world from medieval to modern to future in the same series. What do you think?
When I read that paragraph, my heart about stopped. I responded: YES YES PLEASE ARE YOU KIDDING ME YES I WANT TO READ IT NOW!!
Seriously I would be all over that, and I would love to see allomancers in space, but it could be very hard to pull off. I haven't read many SF/Fantasy combos. But it could be revolutionary. And it only makes sense. We've got historical fantasy and contemporary fantasy, so we need some future fantasy.
It's audacious and daring. It could fail on so many levels, especially the third trilogy. But I believe Brandon can pull it off. Not right away, but after he's built up some more of a fanbase (which is inevitable, given what he's writing now). He just has to make sure that he does it in a way that doesn't break promises to the reader. I'm looking forward to it.
Does that mean that he might someday, maybe, hopefully (pretty please) bring them back to life? I suspect that you might not answer, but can I atleast hope? Cause if anyone deserved to live a full NORMAL life it was Vin and Elend.
I think that Vin and Elend have had more than enough trials and tribulations for a full normal life, and the blank slate world that Spook and the others are in now is going to have its own challenges. But we have to remember that mortality is not the only state of existence, and sometimes there are better options. (Have you seen the movie Somewhere in Time? If not, rent it and watch it.)
I am glad that Brandon will be writing more Mistborn books, but I'm also glad that the cast of characters will be different (except for maybe Marsh and TenSoon and Sazed). Vin's and Elend's story is over, and they filled their roles masterfully.
Of course—if the Church of the Survivor lives on, worshipping Vin, we may NOT have seen the last of Vin's influence, since hemalurgically spiked people can communicate with the intermediate levels of the beyond. (Maybe only with Sazed, though, so perhaps not.)
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I'm one of those readers tha gets swept in the stories and fails to come up with any theories whatsover.
However I did notice one... 2 years ago.
Hoid
I can't believe this is being talked about. I remember making a thread about it shortly after I joined the forums (I can't even find it anymore) About how I thought it was odd to see Hoid in Mistborn as an informant, Elantris as a beggar, Warbreaker as a storyteller, and I had a strong feeling it was in the first chapter as Liar as well but was too lazy to investigate.
It was before these forums got so crazy crowded and I'm pretty sure my questions on whether the use of the name was intetional were brushed off. Weird right? Ever since then I considered my speculations unimportant (much like my speculation's on Reen's obsidian, the nobility really being terris, and Vin being a feruchemist, by the way, don't ask about the second two, I'm crazy)
Anyway, just wanted to add this. I sure wish I could find my original Hoid post but I'm pretty sure it was so old, it's been deleted.
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First of all. WOW!!!!!! I cannot express how much I enjoyed this series! I was extremely happy to finally meet you at the Provo signing, so now 2 of my top 3 authors are down (unfortunately I can't meet RJ, :( ) Anyhow here is my question
Will Vin and Elend fade like mistborn? or will they live on as the "father and mother" of the new world?
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Seriously I would be all over that, and I would love to see allomancers in space, but it could be very hard to pull off.
(not sure if i did that right)...
Anyway, Ookla...I think the SF allomancers have to be extremely careful, their powers are gravitational, in space it could come off as a 'Force'-like ability and then that's a whole other mess! Now, if they went to other planets...maybe, but can you imagine a Coinshot with bad aim, or a Thug that punches the wrong wall? Or someone trying to Pull/Push...it could get really messy.
I imagine that there could be a not-so-lame way to bring Vin, Elend, and Kelsier back, but not as normal players. I could imagine, that if Sazed can't return their souls, he could use them as spiritual emissaries. The could help share the load of watching over the new world, with occasional whispers and hints here and there. Maybe Sazed could send them to other planets as ambassadors to further his influence on other planets so that in the future trilogy allomancy will work on other worlds. This might work as long as it doesn't go the way of Mt. Olympus and such...
Maybe Hoid is like Sazed, maybe he has the combined forces of one shard that allows him to be at the right place at the right time to further the cause/plight of the story, but he has a 'prime directive'-like rule that he can not expose his power or the answers. Maybe we'll find out that all the stories are indeed on the same planet....Imagine that!!! Dor vs Allomancy/Hermalurgy/Feruchemy vs Chromatic Breathes.....forgive my tangent, but what if one could obtain all 3 powers from each book.... scary individual...maybe Hoid....
Father and Mother....sounds like a RAFO question...
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notxaxlie, here is your Hoid thread (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5475.msg115289#msg115289). I'm pretty sure you are indeed the first person to post a thread about Hoid. But reading the thread, I don't see any brush-off. You were right, and you shouldn't have felt your speculations were unimportant!
I didn't notice that the Hoid phenomenon was a phenomenon until you posted your thread, so thank you. I hadn't noticed him in Mistborn or Elantris, and only noticed him in Liar of Partinel and Warbreaker because I was reading both at the same time. Since Brandon sometimes takes a piece of one book that he thinks doesn't work there and instead puts it in another book, I assumed that was what had happened there, but I was oh so wrong.
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Ookla, is there a way for me to read Dragonsteel? I have been seeing it pop up in this forum and it's starting to drive me out of my mind...arrgh! Head swimming, room's spinning...mist is tapping on my window....
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Sometimes Brandon will send you an old book if you e-mail him asking nicely. But he may want to keep Dragonsteel close to his chest because there will be a different version of it published eventually.
If you are very dedicated, though, you may be able to get Dragonsteel via interlibrary loan. Go to a library you're a member of and ask them about interlibrary loan. Say you want to get the book Dragonsteel by Brandon Sanderson from the Harold B. Lee Library at Brigham Young University. They'll have you fill out a form, and then you wait. Possibly for months. I once waited a whole year for an interlibrary loan book to come in (and it was worth it—Bugs Potter LIVE at Nickaninny, which was only published in Canada, but some upstate New York library had it). Note: A lot of libraries charge you good money to get anything on interlibrary loan, because it costs the library money. Also, you usually cannot renew an interlibrary-loaned book, so you have to read it quickly.
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thanks, Ookla
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I was at work and got to about 100 pages from the end with an hour and a half left until I could go home, so I decided I had best wait, and I'm glad I did. (To explain, it took me about an hour to finish, with a few interuptions during that time.)
lol, I'm glad you made it home before the waterworks came! Other people's reactions to my outburst were quite interesting though. I don't think any of them had ever seen anyone become so emotionally involved in a book before.
Actually, I think this is one of the most powerful books I've read. I can tell because I finished it hours ago and I still can't think about anything else. Also, I'm kind of depressed that it's over, a little like it was after the last LOTR movie came out. I know there might be more Mistborn books, but it won't be the same. *sigh* ...where's Preservation when you need it?
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Another negative review has been posted to Amazon. It says: "I found the story picked up midway through; then shot itself in the foot rather explosively with a stunningly trite epilogue that honestly made me cringe."
Goes to prove my point: there will be some on both ends of the spectrum who hate it. The review I have the most difficulty getting is the one that says the ending is underwhelming.
(Good reviews may not help sales much, but negative reviews often do hurt sales. So it helps if the negative reviews are vastly outnumbered. Hint, hint.)
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Just put my .02 cents in review form of amazon. I hope I wasn't too over the top, but hey it's for Brandon, so what's over the top? I read some of those guys and wondered if they were just jealous writers...lol. So anyone else post a review on amazon?
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Another negative review has been posted to Amazon. It says: "I found the story picked up midway through; then shot itself in the foot rather explosively with a stunningly trite epilogue that honestly made me cringe."
Goes to prove my point: there will be some on both ends of the spectrum who hate it. The review I have the most difficulty getting is the one that says the ending is underwhelming.
(Good reviews may not help sales much, but negative reviews often do hurt sales. So it helps if the negative reviews are vastly outnumbered. Hint, hint.)
I'm on it. Eloquent (maybe wordy) review coming right up!
In other news, I just thought I'd show you this:
I'm not sure how this applies,
(http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/4707/mistbornshc3.th.jpg) (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mistbornshc3.jpg)
I like Mistborn so much that I bought seven more copies of the paperback. And that image doesn't even include the Sam Weller's Hero of Ages that is coming in, not to mention the four other three other MB1 paperbacks I gave away and a MB2 paperback I also gave away. I need to keep a better handle on these things so I don't have to keep buying more paperbacks...
(Tomorrow, I'm actually lending all seven of those paperbacks out to people in a class of mine. They all seemed very interested in it :P)
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Chaos, I hope you have money to spare! @_@
As for the Amazon reviews, I'm sure they're all sincere (so far, at least). They did make it through the book, after all.
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Hi, I'm a bit confused about something. You say
(Note that Ruin wouldn't have gotten out if the prison wasn't renewed, he'd simply have been able to touch the world a little bit more.)
Why is it that taking the power, using it, and not renewing the prison only weakens it, whereas taking the power and releasing it without use breaks the prison and sets Ruin free? Either way Preservation is emptied from the Well? (I feel this is something simple I'm just not getting =P)
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Chaos, I hope you have money to spare! @_@
As for the Amazon reviews, I'm sure they're all sincere (so far, at least). They did make it through the book, after all.
Sure I do. What else would I buy the Warbreaker hardcover with? :P At least, when it is finally published.
The scary part is that I probably own more of Brandon's work than all the libraries in the Bozeman area does. (I have two copies of Elantris, too, but I gave my paperback away...) That makes me virtually the emissary of Brandon's novels for all of Montana State University. I already have five converts, soon to be many more.
EDIT: Also, I wrote a review for the book on Amazon, but it hasn't been published yet.
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Geez Chaos2651... I thought I was going over the top by purchasing the first two books in both hardback and paperback. Apparently I'm a little further behind in fanatic fandom than I thought... ;D
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It may not surprise you, then, that I also have two Aon pendants. Also, whenever Brandon comes out with that Table of Allomantic Metals poster, you can bet that I'll get one of those, too.
My goal, you see, is to scare people with fanatical fandom--or, before MB3 came out, I would scare people with very lengthy theories. I'm scary that way.
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Folks,
This essay I just posted:
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/article/55/EUOLogy-My-History-as-a-Writer
Started as a blog post for this thread, talking about the old books I wrote to give context to my previous post. It outgrew the length of a proper forum post, so I put it on the site instead. But this might help you understand some of my history as a writer, not to mention explain the origin of all these old books Ookla that references all the time.
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My goal, you see, is to scare people with fanatical fandom--or, before MB3 came out, I would scare people with very lengthy theories. I'm scary that way.
Yay! I'm glad there's someone to take that place. I've been worrying that I'd be given that place WITHOUT wanting it.
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My goal, you see, is to scare people with fanatical fandom--or, before MB3 came out, I would scare people with very lengthy theories. I'm scary that way.
Yay! I'm glad there's someone to take that place. I've been worrying that I'd be given that place WITHOUT wanting it.
Glad I could be a service.
Folks,
This essay I just posted:
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/article/55/EUOLogy-My-History-as-a-Writer
Started as a blog post for this thread, talking about the old books I wrote to give context to my previous post. It outgrew the length of a proper forum post, so I put it on the site instead. But this might help you understand some of my history as a writer, not to mention explain the origin of all these old books Ookla that references all the time.
That is very interesting, Brandon. Very illuminating for an aspiring like myself. You know, you probably will influence my first book (I really need to get past chapter five on that project) far more than I will realize. Know that when you put out a great trilogy like Mistborn, you accomplish two things: you inspire young writers to become better, but you also inspire imitation. Not that imitating certain things is bad, especially for an initial book which probably won't be published without serious work. I just find it immensely interesting that when I read anything, the writer imprints something I can't quite identify into my writing style. I'm either somewhat imitating, but also at the same time I also react against things as I learn I'm taking too many concepts from other sources.
I just thought I'd like to let you know your reach as an author is far greater than just creating novels :P (in case you didn't know)
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What he said.
Very interesting essay, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
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I remembered a thread from ages ago in which Brandon posted a list of the books he'd written, I looked it up when I realised it wasn't in the article, and I figured you guys might be interested too, so here it is.
The complete Brandon Library is:
1) White Sand Prime  (My first Fantasy Novel)
2) Star's End  (Short, alien-relations sf novel.)
3) Lord Mastrell (Sequel to White Sand Prime)
4) Knight Life (Fantasy comedy.)
5) The Sixth Incarnation of Pandora (Far future sf involving immortal warriors)
6) Elantris (You have to buy this one!)
7) Dragonsteel (My most standard epic fantasy
8) White Sand (Complete rewrite of the first attempt)
9) Mythwalker (Unfinished at about 600 pages. Â Another more standard epic fantasy.)
10) Aether of Night (Stand-Alone fantasy. Â A little like Elantris.)
11) Mistborn Prime (Eventually stole this world.)
12) Final Empire Prime (Cannibalized for book 14 as well.)
13) The Way of Kings (Fantasy War epic. Â Coming in 2008 or 2009)
14) Mistborn: The Final Empire (Coming June 2006)
15) Mistborn: The Well of Ascension (Early 2007)
16) Alcatraz Initiated (YA Fantasy. Being shopped to publishers)
17) Mistborn: Hero of Ages (Unfinished. Â Coming late 2007)
18) Dark One (Unfinished. Â YA fantasy)
19) Untitled Aether Project (Two sample chapters only.)
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Thanks for posting that. Note that I can never quite remember which was first, Aether or Mistborn Prime. I always feel that Aether should be first, since it wasn't as bad as the two primes, but thinking back I think that the essay is more accurate and I wrote it between them.
This would be the new list:
1) White Sand Prime (My first Fantasy Novel)
2) Star's End (Short, alien-relations sf novel.)
3) Lord Mastrell (Sequel to White Sand Prime)
4) Knight Life (Fantasy comedy.)
5) The Sixth Incarnation of Pandora (Far future sf involving immortal warriors)
6) Elantris (First Published)
7) Dragonsteel (My most standard epic, other than the not-very-good Final Empire prime.)
8 ) White Sand (Complete rewrite of the first attempt, turned out much better.)
9) Mythwalker (Unfinished at about 600 pages. Another more standard epic fantasy.)
10) Aether of Night (Stand-Alone fantasy. A little like Elantris.)
11) Mistborn Prime (Shorter fantasy, didn't turn out so well.)
12) Final Empire Prime (Shorter fantasy, didn't turn out so well.)
13) The Way of Kings Prime (Fantasy War epic.)
14) Mistborn: The Final Empire (Came out 2006)
15) Mistborn: The Well of Ascension (Came out 2007)
16) Alcatraz Verus the Evil Librarians. (Came out 2007)
17) Mistborn: Hero of Ages (Came out 2008)
18) Alcatraz Versus the Scrivner's Bones (Came out 2008)
19) Warbreaker (Comes out June 2009)
20) Alcatraz Versus the Knights of Crystallia (November 2009ish)
21) A Memory of Light (November 2009ish. Working on it now. Might be split into two.)
22) The Way of Kings Book One (2010ish. Not started yet.)
23) Alcatraz Four (2010. Not started yet)
I plan for The Way of Kings to be ten books, and will release periodic stand alone novels in other worlds while working on it. I'd say one every other year, if I can manage it. They'll probably come from the list below. Alcatraz is five books long, so there will be one of those in 2011 as well.
Other Projects
Scribbler (Completed YA steampunk. Really needs a revision....)
Dark One (Unfinished. YA fantasy)
Untitled Aether Project (Two chapters only. Never went anywhere with this.)
The Liar of Partinel (Finished stand alone in the Dragonsteel world. Uncertain when I'll release it. Really needs a LOT of edits)
Nightblood (Warbreaker sequel. Title may change. Unwritten.)
The Silence Divine (Working title. Stand alone Epic Fantasy. Unwritten.)
Steelheart (YA Science Fiction. Unwritten)
I Hate Dragons (Middle Grade fantasy. Maybe an Alcatraz follow up. Unwritten.)
Zeek Harbinger, Destroyer of Worlds (Middle Grade Sf. Maybe an Alcatraz follow up. Unwritten.)
There's also probably a White Sand rewrite, a Dragonsteel Rewrite, and some Elantris sequels somewhere in the future.
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Another question, Brandon. Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadriel?
Okay, back to answering spoilers. (Or, in the case of this post, half-answering them.)
To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codse, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.
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Aha!
We now have names for two other beings, Ati and Leras. Whoever they may be. Creator Shards? I can't help but notice that the names came as a pair, much like Ruin and Preservation.
EDIT: Okay, I just realized that perhaps Ati and Leras are just names for the people controlling Ruin and Preservation. *slaps forehead* Obviously.
Very interesting...
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Readers have met four shards other than Ruin and Preservation.
Have we met these four by name, or just by influence? I can't think of a name that would go with the one that the Elantris lake is a manifestation of.
Hoid could be one? I know nothing his purpose other than that he shows up in lots of different books, sometimes begging and sometimes telling stories. Since most of these series happen on different planets (though two of them may happen on the same planet as each other), I'm assuming he has mad planet-hopping skills.
...Nightblood...
Ookla, I'm going to be tight lipped on this, as I don't want to give things away for future books. But I'll tell you this:
You've interacted with two directly.
One is a tough call. You've never met the Shard itself, but you've seen its power.
The other one you have not met directly, but have seen its influence.
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I have a rather simple question. What was Spook's real name? He gives a easternese slang term that becomes his name, then he goes by his Kel given nick. So, what was his birth name? (Yes, I wonder about random things like that.)
Jedal. After his father.
Which is the reason why Spook didn't like using it.
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So are all these epic novels in the same universe? Elantris, Mistborn, Dragonsteel, all that?
I'm afraid that question is best left to the rest of you, for now, to discuss.
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Will elements of your untitled Aether project be worked into the Dragonsteel series?
The Silence Divine (Working title. Stand alone Epic Fantasy. Unwritten.)
Steelheart (YA Science Fiction. Unwritten)
I Hate Dragons (Middle Grade fantasy. Maybe an Alcatraz follow up. Unwritten.)
Zek Harbringer, Destroyer of Worlds (Middle Grade Sf. Maybe an Alcatraz follow up. Unwritten.)
These titles are news to me. You described two potential YA or middle-grade books to me and Karen when you came out to Book Expo, plus Dark One, but now I can't remember the plots except they were cool (and that one of them involved superheroes). Are they among this list? Also, is that really Harbringer or is it supposed to be Harbinger?
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1) How did Inquisitors find Atium mistings?
2) Before, Inquisitors had supernatural healing. How did they get the Feruchemists for the spike? Were the keepers not so hidden after all?
3) And this is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?
4) How much control do allomancers have over pushing and pulling metals?
1) They spike the drinks at one of the nobility's balls with trace amounts of Atium, then cause a bit disturbance. (Often, the Inquisitors themselves arriving will do it) and burn bronze and watch for brief pulses. The body will burn metals instinctively if it can, which has been shown quite often in the series. This is also how they get a lot of their secret information about who is a Misting and who isn't. It's not a perfect method, since you have to watch for Copperclouds messing things up, but it is effective once in a while.
Any time an obligator who is not a Misting joins the Ministry, he is unknowingly given a larger chunk of atium and then forced into a series of rituals that will drain him physically and get the body to react and burn the metal. This was how Yomen was discovered.
2) The keepers have been hunted for years. Much like skaa Allomancers, they were often captured and taken by the Inquisitors. It didn't happen nearly as often, of course. Two things to remember, however: Not all Inquisitors had the same spikes, and spikes CAN be reused with much less effectiveness. The longer they are outside of a body, the more their power degrades.
3) It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does--but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.
In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.
4) Depends on the Allomancer. Zane and Kelsier were both unusually skilled in this area, and represent the higher end of what is possible.
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Ok, I am new write and reading forums, so I'm a little slow on it, so please be kind.....
1.) What if RAFO?
2.) Who is HOID? I have read Elantris and all 3 Mistborns but don't remember the name, am I missing something?
3.) Dragonsteel, is that by Brandon or L. Yep, I am soooo confused.
4.) These Shards everyone is talking about...what are they?
I would be glad for someone to eliminate my ignorance on these matters....
As far as Kel's grabbing the power to Pres to hold for Vin, was it him that whispered to Spook, when Spook was unconscious, to get his message to Vin?
No problem! Welcome. Don't worry. Someone probably answered this already, but I've only skimmed the later pages of the thread, as I'm trying to make my way through the questions.
1) "Read and Find Out." It was one of Robert Jordan's favorite phrases, and I have inherited it. (Symbolically, actually, through his bookmark, which was given to me by his wife. It's a little string one with weights on the end which spell out RAFO.) When I say it, I don't mean it rudely at all--it is intended to mean "I'd rather not say, as this will spoil future books." It doesn't indicate how I'll answer the question, or even if I will answer it. It simply means that if I were to do so now (even to say "I'm not going to include this") I feel it would spoil the enjoyment of future books.
2) Hoid is a mystery which I cannot speak on other than what has been written in the text of the novels. However, I'm sure that others have explained it by now.
3) I just did a post on my website explaining this.
4) RAFO. ;)
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Will elements of your untitled Aether project be worked into the Dragonsteel series?
The Silence Divine (Working title. Stand alone Epic Fantasy. Unwritten.)
Steelheart (YA Science Fiction. Unwritten)
I Hate Dragons (Middle Grade fantasy. Maybe an Alcatraz follow up. Unwritten.)
Zek Harbringer, Destroyer of Worlds (Middle Grade Sf. Maybe an Alcatraz follow up. Unwritten.)
These titles are news to me. You described two potential YA or middle-grade books to me and Karen when you came out to Book Expo, plus Dark One, but now I can't remember the plots except they were cool (and that one of them involved superheroes). Are they among this list? Also, is that really Harbringer or is it supposed to be Harbinger?
Bah! That's what I get for typing so quickly. Yes, Harbinger. It should be "Zeek" too. Short for Ezekiel.
Steelheart would be the superhero one, though that's a working title, since I'm not sure if it's trademarked or not. Haven't had much time for thinking about any of these books lately.
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Readers have met four shards other than Ruin and Preservation.
Have we met these four by name, or just by influence? I can't think of a name that would go with the one that the Elantris lake is a manifestation of.
Hoid could be one? I know nothing his purpose other than that he shows up in lots of different books, sometimes begging and sometimes telling stories. Since most of these series happen on different planets (though two of them may happen on the same planet as each other), I'm assuming he has mad planet-hopping skills.
...Nightblood...
Thank you for giving those extra Hoid references, Ookla. I didn't remember those Elantris or MB1 references, though I distinctly remember him in Warbreaker because he was on there for a bit more than a page :P Hoid definitely made it in the 6.1 Warbreaker PDF (in case you haven't read anything past 4.2. 6.1 was my first Warbreaker read-through).
I thought Nightblood was explained sufficiently for my tastes in Warbreaker, so I doubt that it is a Shard, but I've been plenty wrong before. Also, I don't know if Hoid could even be a Shard. Certainly he has mean planet-hopping skills, but I don't know what purpose a celestial storyteller would have in this universe. He doesn't really have the same kind of power as Ruin or Preservation did, so normally I would rule him out right off the bat. But it is possible that these Shards come in many shapes, not just in the near-deific quantity Ruin or Preservation had. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say Hoid is a Shard... but, then again, I don't have any ideas for what those four other Shards are.
Maybe Hoid is just a traveler trying to find remnants of Adonalsium and stories about them. He doesn't need to be a shard, I suppose.
This is slightly a tangent, but here is a relevant chunk from the Warbreaker Annotations. As this won't be posted for months, I'll put it here as a sneak preview.
Chapter Thirty-Two
"This whole scene came about because I wanted an interesting way to delve into the history. Siri needed to hear it, and I felt that many readers would want to know it. However, that threatened to put me into the realm of the dreaded info dump.
And so I brought in the big guns. This cameo is so obvious (or, at least, someday it will be) that I almost didn’t use the name Hoid for the character, as I felt it would be too obvious. The first draft had him using one of his other favorite pseudonyms. However, in the end, I decided that too many people would be confused (or, at least, even more confused) if I didn’t use the same name. So here it is. And if you have no idea what I’m talking about. . .well, let’s just say that there’s a lot more to this random appearance than you might think."
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Wow, I only noticed Hoid in Final Empire and Hero of Ages, but I can see him being in Elantris as well. My thoughts is it's just a sort of joke, like in Pheobe Gilman's childrens books she always includes items or characters from other books in her illustrations.
This Shards thing is so cool, I'd totally love to see Raoden and Kelsier fight, even though that's impossible. In Elantris I'd say there are two shards, the lake and the dor. The Dor is the power life, and the lake is the power of rest. Similar but not the same as ruin and Preservation. The way the Dor can be harnessed in a variety of ways makes me even more certain that it is a shard.
I think Kelsier would beat Raoden though. Raoden could do pretty much anything, like automatically kill Kelsier with an aon, but they are too slow, Kell would have him down before he finished drawing.
I think most of my Questions have been answered, thanks Brandon!
1) One Question is this. If Gold is used to make Malatium, couldn't malatium also be gold's compliment?
2)I also wondered if you could explain that circle in the cave some more, I didn't quite get it.
I was sure Vin was the hero right up until the end, even though originally before I read the book, I was sure it would be Elend or Sazed. But then the epilogue author started naming people off, so I knew it wasn't them. But it only mentions Vin as 'she,' when talking about how she got her spike. I was sure one of the epigraphs was going to be: "And that girl is me."
The Sazed thing totally made sense in hindsight, I can't believe I didn't figure it out. And we were right about the "on the arms," bit being the part Brandon was referring to, good find Vintage!
I'm a little sad that the lake doesn't come into it more. But the Mist spirit and the Deepness were BOTH Preservation. That was cool.
3) So here's my last question. If there ARE people on the other side of the world, did Vin kill them all by placing the sun on their side, or do they have they're own Ruin/Preservation battle going on over there as well? Do they also have allomancy feruchemy and hemalurgy?
So those three numbered points are my questions, great great book, it was simply amazing!
1. The Allomantic table poster will have more info on this.
2. I think I did a post on the circle. The short of it is, that is drawing too much attention. Just because Vin didn't quite understand it doesn't mean it's important. (Though, of course, there are other things she doesn't understand that ARE important.) Also, the lake might be involved more at a later date. See the other posts.
3. No, they're not dead. Yes, Rashek was aware of them. In fact, he placed them there as a reserve. I knew he wanted a 'control' group of people in case his changes to genetics ended with the race being in serious trouble. All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created. And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them--though without anyone among them having burned Larasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.
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I have a question (I knew there was one when I was done. I just couldn't remember it.) Is Sazed effected by the metal blindess, or can he see thing written in metal?
He is blinded by metal.
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I'd first like to say that this series was fantastic. I was exceptionally pleased with how you tied everything together in this final book of the trilogy.
1. This series has the best world-building, magic system, and over-arching plot of any epic fantasy I have ever read. I think George R.R. Martin is still the master of creating memorable characters, developing them, and having them interact with each other. Other authors, like Hobb and Rothfuss, are better at evincing emotion. You are an amazing writer yourself.
That being said, I have a couple suggestions for you.
2. The first contradicts itself, so take it for what it is. I would suggest that you write how you feel the story should be written. Getting inspiration from someone is one thing, but changing your work because some people want a happy ending or dark ending takes away from the purity of writing. The part you added in at the end where Sazed let Spook know Vin and Elend were happy in the afterlife really stuck me like a thorn. I think it was apparent how happy they were together in life and how necessary their sacrifices were. That would have been enough for me.
3. My other suggestion is more of a plea really. Please don't extend this series just to capitalize on it. If you really feel there is more story to be told, then tell it. I, for one, thought the ending would have been perfect if allomancy, hemalurgy, and feruchemy would have faded from existence as their corresponding gods did. It would have been rather romantic to have people start over with a new "normal" world.
Congratulations again on completing a masterful work!
1. You humble me. I don't think I've NEARLY the skill for characters that Mr. Martin does, and that's not just an attempt at modesty. I hope to be there some day, however.
2. This is a tricky one. I didn't change the worldbuilding or the cosmology of the story in order to fit what people wanted, but I feel strongly about using writing groups and test readers to see if my intention in a book has been achieved. I show things to alpha readers to see what is confusing or bothersome to them, then decide if that's really something I want to be confusing or bothersome.
In my mind, the presence of a powerful being such as Sazed, mixed with some direct reaching from beyond the grave by a certain crew leader, indicated that there WAS an afterlife. However, test readers didn't get it, so I tweaked the story to make it more obvious. Perhaps I should have left it as is, but I liked both ways, and decided upon the one I liked the most in the context of reader responses.
I do plan to always tell the stories from my heart, and not change them because of how I think the reactions will be. But I do think it's important to know what those reactions are ahead of time and decide if they are what I want or not.
3. We are on the same page on this one. You can read other posts on the thread to see what kind of thoughts I might have for more Mistborn books, but I don't know if/when I will write them. It depends on the story and how excited I am to tell it.
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Brandon, here (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5165.msg111110#msg111110) you said Alcatraz 4 is called Alcatraz vs. The Dark Talent; is that still the working title? Also, you mentioned Dragonsteel: The Lightweaver of Rens, but now you say The Liar of Partinel is a standalone. Change of plans? (I know you can't get back to Dragonsteel for a while.)
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And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them--though without anyone among them having burned Larasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.
Okay, in a previous post you just said:
Another question, Brandon. Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadriel?
Okay, back to answering spoilers. (Or, in the case of this post, half-answering them.)
To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codse, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.
Ati and Leras. Well, the metal Lerasium creates Mistborn, so if that is the Preservation-metal, thus, Preservation's true name is Leras.
I pondered this for a few minutes and then it occurred to me: of course Ati is Ruin. His metal, after all, is atium. Ati for atium, Leras for Larasium.
Ruin, thus, is Ati, and Preservation is Leras. We have their names now.
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So I have a couple of questions....
I loved the book, it was all great UNTIL Vin and especially ELEND died. I can see why you did it, but I was crying so hard when Vin confirmed Elend was dead. I actually had an urge to burn the books right then and there and pretend it had never happened. Either way, I continued reading and then found some sliver of hope when Sazed said he hadn't figured out how to restore the souls YET, he said he would get better at it.
1)Does that mean that he might someday, maybe, hopefully (pretty please) bring them back to life? I suspect that you might not answer, but can I atleast hope? Cause if anyone deserved to live a full NORMAL life it was Vin and Elend. Besides, it would ROCK if Elend and Kelsier ever got to meet each other......
Awe man.....i'm still crying over Elend....Is it wrong I get so attatched to characters? Its just that Elend and Vin got so little time together. It's so sad. Which reminds me: You mentioned, when someone asked about sazed meeting twindyl again, that he hadn't because he hadn't reached that space where souls were and the ones that were trapped in the in between were the ones that had a connection with either the physical or the concious world. Those weren't the exact words but it was something like that that IMPLIED that Vin, Elend and Kel were somehow still connected with the earth because unlike twindyl the hadn't progressed past that in between place.
2) Am I right and maybe going somewhere, or am I talking total nonsense and simply trying to cope with the loss of Elend?
One of the reasons for that line at the end is to give you, the reader, the power and authority to bring to the characters the ending you wish. I may do more in this series, but until then, please take the future of the characters wherever you want in your own mind. (Also, you mention that they had such little time together--which is true, but also remember that there was a year between books one and two, then another year between books two and three. They spent most of this time together.)
The door is open for a return of Elend and Vin. Will I write it? It isn't likely to be soon, if I ever even do. Does that mean it won't happen? No. Not at all. If I write more Mistborn books, they will be hundreds of years in the future. During that time, Sazed could have learned to get souls into bodies, given Vin and Elend a life together somewhere away from the others, where they wouldn't have to struggle quite so much like they did through their lives, then ushered their souls on to the beyond. Or they could hang around with him, working with him as he takes his next steps to shepherd humankind on Scadrial. Or neither of the above. Imagine it how you wish, for I'm not going to set this one in stone for quite some time, if ever.
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Awesome Book. Seriously, probably the best I've ever read.
And to think I was worried about what we'd theorize over! Now, for my "I told you so" moment:
I totally called the "future of the world on his arms" thing. Yes, Chaos, you may bow. That was my topic. Ha!
That said, that's really the only thing that I was dead on. There were others that I was close, but the rest, I was WAY off.
So, a quick question: Why can Vin fuel Elend's atium-burning, even though Atium is Ruin's Body and Vin is using Preservation? Or did I misread that and he was just burning atium and had run out of everything else?
Yes, as has been pointed out:
"A powerful peace swelled in Elend. His Allomancy flared bright, though he knew the metals inside of him should have burned away. Only atium remained, and the strange power did not--could not--give him this metal. But it didn’t matter. For a moment, he was embraced by something greater. He looked up, toward the sun." (From the text.)
As a note here, the powers granted by all of the metals--even the two divine ones--are not themselves of either Shard. They are simply tools. And so, it's possible that one COULD have found a way to reproduce an ability like atium's while using Preservation's power, but it wouldn't be as natural or as easy as using Preservation to fuel Allomancy.
The means of getting powers--Ruin stealing, Preservation gifting--are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.
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No, Elend was burning atium and had run out of everything else. At least, that was how I read it. It wouldn't help to get rid of the atium if Elend wasn't burning it, I think.
So, Brandon, it's Sunday now. Did Hero of Ages sell enough to become a bestseller?
*crosses fingers*
We'll know on Wednesday, but the distribution problems have us worried. A lot of stores didn't get the books on the shelves until Friday or Saturday, which only gave one or two days in that market to get on the list. We'll see. It's going to be close. It will depend on how many stores got the books on time, how well other authors did, and whether or not I sold copies at the RIGHT stores. (The ones which report to the NYT list.)
I will post on Wednesday when I know, though it might not be until late in the day, as I've got a lot going on during tour on Wednesday.
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And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them--though without anyone among them having burned Larasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.
Now the real question is, what does the alloy of Larasium do, and what is it called? (Takes away Allomancy maybe?)
And I'm really suspecting something atium is "the adopted child" of the metal circle. It doesn't quite belong.
Okay, in a previous post you just said:
Another question, Brandon. Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadriel?
Okay, back to answering spoilers. (Or, in the case of this post, half-answering them.)
To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codse, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.
Ati and Leras. Well, the metal Lerasium creates Mistborn, so if that is the Preservation-metal, thus, Preservation's true name is Leras.
I pondered this for a few minutes and then it occurred to me: of course Ati is Ruin. His metal, after all, is atium. Ati for atium, Leras for Larasium.
Ruin, thus, is Ati, and Preservation is Leras. We have their names now.
Grr. As I was saying before my post got eaten . . . .
This makes me wonder what the alloy of Lerasium is called and what it does. . . .
And I'm more and more sure that atium and malatium aren't really supposed to be on that metal circle. . .
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I'm a big fan of Brandon's work. This book is one of his best so far, and it really affected me. Some parts had me in tears, others had me pacing around at midnight.
Might as well try my questions:
1: It seemed that Kelsier was fluent in Spook's street dialect, and even conversed with Spook in the dialect at one point. So I'm assuming Kelsier knew what Lestibournes really meant, and being who Kelsier was, giving him a new name probably was more about building the boy up, rather than just the length. That said, why Spook? If he was trying to boost Spook's self confidence, why use a name like that?
2: Given that Kelsier seems be keeping an eye out for everything from the beyond, how does Kelsier feel about how every turned out? Has his opinion on Elend changed? How did he react upon learning Lord Ruler's true nature? I'm guessing this may be a RAFO situation, but I might as well ask.
3: A question about Goradel. His end was very tragic, and was one of the things that had me in tears. The thing that really twisted the knife into me, is that he died that horrible death thinking that he had failed. When everything he tried to survive failed, his final act was to try to prevent the message into falling into Ruin's hands, but even that was futile. With those who seem to be active in the great beyond, did Goradel ever find out about what his actions helped to bring about? Was he ever thanked for his actions?
1. It's an inside joke between them. "Spook" means "Sneaky" or "Clever" in the street slang. It was a compliment.
2. Yes, let's RAFO for the most part. (Let's just say that he is overall pleased.)
3. Well... I don't want to speak too much about the great beyond in the books, as in my opinion that level of cosmology is influenced by your own beliefs in the hereafter and in deity. Beyond that, I would rather not speak of what happens to the souls beyond the three Realms, as even Sazed doesn't know that.
Perhaps this will help, however. Like most of the leaders of soldiers in this series (Demoux, Wells, and Conrad included,) Goradel is based on and looks like one of my friends. In this case, it's Richard Gordon. He's read the book and cheered for his namesake's sacrifice and eventual victory. So the REAL Goradel knows. ;)
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......wooooooooooooooah......
I still can't stop thinking that in my head. It's all that's really coming to mind at the moment.
I made the stupid mistake of finishing the book this afternoon in a public place. Therefore I looked like a complete moron as I burst into tears when Elend died. I think it was a good ending. I'm still not totally decided on that. I'm just in shock.
It's just so amazing how the books progressed, developing into this huge cosmic epic that I never expected from just reading The Final Empire a year ago. I guess in some sense what I'm feeling is a slight sense of... awe, maybe? I want to know how he comes up with stuff. I mean seriously, talk about not just writing another fantasy series.
But I'm also shocked that no one else seemed to have figured out that Sazed was the Hero of Ages. I thought it might be him when I started the book, but it could as easily have been Vin or Elend. But at about a third of the way through, page 215 to be exact, there was this line from Sazed thinking in his head:
"I am, unforunately, in charge."
Sound familiar?
"I am, unfortunately, the Hero of Ages."
No one else would have used the same wording as Sazed did when he was thinking to himself. I have to assume that was intentional on Brandon's part. It was very subtle... I'm actually surprised I noticed.
I'm gratified that you noticed. The Terris dialect IS very subtle. That speech pattern is one hint, the other is the use of "I think" to soften phrases at the ending. Beyond that, Sazed speaks with compound, complex sentences using frequent hedging to indicate that he's often uncertain. (That's another Terris speech pattern, not wanting to offend with language.)
The epigraphs in this book particularly (though I did it for Kwaan too) are intended to "sound" Terris, and like Sazed in particular. I didn't think anyone would catch it. You made my day!
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I'm one of those readers tha gets swept in the stories and fails to come up with any theories whatsover.
However I did notice one... 2 years ago.
Hoid
I can't believe this is being talked about. I remember making a thread about it shortly after I joined the forums (I can't even find it anymore) About how I thought it was odd to see Hoid in Mistborn as an informant, Elantris as a beggar, Warbreaker as a storyteller, and I had a strong feeling it was in the first chapter as Liar as well but was too lazy to investigate.
It was before these forums got so crazy crowded and I'm pretty sure my questions on whether the use of the name was intetional were brushed off. Weird right? Ever since then I considered my speculations unimportant (much like my speculation's on Reen's obsidian, the nobility really being terris, and Vin being a feruchemist, by the way, don't ask about the second two, I'm crazy)
Anyway, just wanted to add this. I sure wish I could find my original Hoid post but I'm pretty sure it was so old, it's been deleted.
I remember when you pointed Hoid out, notxaxlie. I was curious to see if others would start talking about it then, but it just kind of faded. You were certainly one of the first to spot that point.
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First of all. WOW!!!!!! I cannot express how much I enjoyed this series! I was extremely happy to finally meet you at the Provo signing, so now 2 of my top 3 authors are down (unfortunately I can't meet RJ, :( ) Anyhow here is my question
Will Vin and Elend fade like mistborn? or will they live on as the "father and mother" of the new world?
Thanks Jakobus!
I just answered this one, kind of, just above. I'm afraid it's rather vague. But they won't 'fade' away.
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Brandon, here (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5165.msg111110#msg111110) you said Alcatraz 4 is called Alcatraz vs. The Dark Talent; is that still the working title? Also, you mentioned Dragonsteel: The Lightweaver of Rens, but now you say The Liar of Partinel is a standalone. Change of plans? (I know you can't get back to Dragonsteel for a while.)
The Alcatraz titles are in flux because I need to know if Scholastic wants the fifth one or not. (They only bought four.) Dark Talent will be one of them for certain.
The Liar of Partinel was part of a tw0-part story told hundreds of years before the Dragonsteel epic. However, since I've dropped plans to go with Liar anytime soon--AMoL has priority, followed by Way of Kings--I don't know what I'll end up doing with the second book, or if I'll ever even write it. I was planning on not calling either of these "Dragonsteel" in print, actually, and just letting people connect the two series on their own. It wouldn't be hard to do, but I didn't want the first actual book in the main storyline to be launched by Tor as "Book Three" since there would be such a large gap of time.
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Wonderfully written series.
I wrote something on these forums when I had just read The Final Empire, as this was a somewhat randomly recommended book that turned out to FAR exceed what I had hoped. When I walked into B&N and still had trouble finding the Hero of Ages right after it's release, I was frankly surprised (I ended up not being able to wait for my pre-ordered copy to arrive at my apartment). However, I suppose the marketing process for books/authors is much different than for other things.
I havn't really caught up with the forums yet and I don't want to ask overly redundant questions, so I'll hold them off.
For specific praise, I really feel you had a good number of narrative POV's throughout the series. That combined with the fact that I invest myself heavily into the characters/plot, both of which were amazing, makes this trilogy honestly one of the most enjoyable series I have ever read. Thank you,
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I thought something was wrong, my bookstore didn't know they had it in, and only had 2 copies, of which I bought one (I had already bought it online through them too, so had 2 copies!)
I gave away my paperbacks when I got my hardcovers....when MB3 goes paper...buy that to give my girlfriend the complete set....so she won't touch my HCs!!
I just wonder how in the world you wrote so much, I am having trouble getting one book down on paper....but that's a topic for another thread.... I'm just glad you didn't give up, your books are inspiration to us all, hence all these fanatics talking about fictional characters as if they were flesh and blood, and most of us wish they were, I know I do!
The guy that wrote the neg-review on amazon about Brandon's character development must be a bit delusional. I have read a lot of fantasy in the few months and must say that From Elantris to Warbreaker...everyone of his characters seem to be on point, real and tangible, have the right evolution for their part, and I might add, if they were based on real people, man I would love to be their friends. Vasher/Kelsier just has this cavalier way about him, Vin was so real to me that I almost cried when she sacrificed herself to avenge El, and the way Brandon developed her, I would have sworn he had a degree in psychology or channeled someone's younger sister/daughter...
And Brandon, if I haven't praised you enough, allow me to just say, in the last 5 months I have read numerous series from numerous author from, Morgan Howell to Patricia Briggs to R.A. Salvatore, and I must say you definitely brought something new to the genre and on a major scale!!! Thank you!
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I pre-ordered The Hero of Ages from Barnes and Noble and it was shipped a day late. They actually said 1 to 5 business days. So I got the book on Friday and just finished it.
I want to say WOW. I liked all three of the books. And now I need to do some re-reading of the first two. I liked how things we fleshed out for the most part. I have to admit Vin is my favorite character in the trilogy. I kind of wanted Marsh to die but oh well ;D
Prometheus4d
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I let my brother borrow Elantris this weekend. I can almost guarantee that my second copy of MB3 will be going to him by Christmas. I'll get Tor to send EOUL to New England for signings some day, even if I have to do it one person at a time. :)
Small Question: Did Sazed Heal Marsh? He had quite a large hole in his head when we last saw him. I'm surprised more people haven't commented on how much of a hero Marsh is in this story. The sacrifices and suffering he endured were much greater than anyone elses, in my opinion. He also saved Vin twice, both times at the most dire moment. With what has been explained to us about Ruin's influence on people with spikes, it shows just how strong he is to have never completely given in. With that many pieces of metal in him, he should have been completely overcome.
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EUOL said that the Preservation Nugget could be alloyed with other metals to create any type of Misting... maybe I'll find the quote later.
I'm thinking Atium is the same way and alloying Atium with different metals will do similar things... Mixing Atium and Gold let you see other's past instead of your own. But who really wanted to test out that theory and waste Atium.
Seems like there's a lot of hinting that Atium, and therefore Malatium, don't belong in the wheel of 16... But I can't get a good enough look at the posted pic to see if it really is or not. So even after the last book is out, I'm still waiting on something Mistborn to be released.
Is Silver the 'real' Temporal metal?
Marsh was one of my favorite PoV's in the book and, while reading through, I thought the epigraphs were Marsh and he somehow ended up being the Hero or Ages.
EDIT: Well I couldn't read the titles of the metals but it is the Atium symbol on the poster... Wonder why one God Metal is on the wheel but not the other.
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The brief history of Brandon Sanderson's writing is fabulous. Thanks for being so transparent with your process. Many people assume that great writing springs unbidden from the minds of masters we cannot hope to emulate - you have shown us otherwise.
(My Honors Thesis was also a fantasy novel. It too is in my university's library. It's almost embarrassing to read it now - 400 pages of ack. Although - I felt like a rock star with the way all the faculty treated me. 10 years later they still introduce me as "the guy to wrote the fantasy novel." Of course, then I feel embarrassed when people ask - what did you do with that? Answer: nothing. I got married and got a real job right after college.)
I think all these explanations posted in this thread are neat. But I think they're beginning to detract from the trilogy. The element of mystery and unknown is key in Fantasy. It lets us fill in the blanks. Plus, too much foreshadowing/spoilering can and will affect the way we read future books. My 2-cents. Regardless, thanks for letting us into your world, Brandon. We wish you success so we can selfishly continue experiencing your art.
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"Zeke" is the more usual spelling for the Ezekiel nickname. Google shows it as 8 times as popular as Zeek (on pages which also contain the word Ezekiel.)
Does the BYU bookstore happen to report to the New York Times? Do any bookstores in Utah? Or is it a secret?
There's a spoiler-ridden "Vin and Elend die" review on Amazon. I flagged it as inappropriate but it might help to flag it a few more times. Another review says "characters die," which is completely appropriate, but to specifically say "Vin and Elend die" goes too far.
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EUOL said that the Preservation Nugget could be alloyed with other metals to create any type of Misting... maybe I'll find the quote later.
I'm thinking Atium is the same way and alloying Atium with different metals will do similar things... Mixing Atium and Gold let you see other's past instead of your own. But who really wanted to test out that theory and waste Atium.
Seems like there's a lot of hinting that Atium, and therefore Malatium, don't belong in the wheel of 16... But I can't get a good enough look at the posted pic to see if it really is or not. So even after the last book is out, I'm still waiting on something Mistborn to be released.
Is Silver the 'real' Temporal metal?
Marsh was one of my favorite PoV's in the book and, while reading through, I thought the epigraphs were Marsh and he somehow ended up being the Hero or Ages.
EDIT: Well I couldn't read the titles of the metals but it is the Atium symbol on the poster... Wonder why one God Metal is on the wheel but not the other.
I think it is just a misconception that atium is a regular metal when it really isn't. Larasium (the Preservation metal) wasn't nearly as widespread as atium was, so that one doesn't really have a place on the metal table. I wouldn't be surprised if one day, in a potential future Mistborn book, atium is replaced with a different, non-deific metal. As for the Table of Allomantic Metals, I squint and see that atium is definitely on it.
I'm also certain that silver wouldn't be the real temporal metal, since in MB3 it is frequently called "useless". I'm going to go with that judgment, because I don't think finding pure metals is as difficult as its alloy. Pure metals would just need to be pure, while its alloy need to be at its perfect proportion. I'm sure Allomancers for centuries have tried to burn silver to no avail.
EDIT: Yeah, I saw that review. I just flagged it as inappropriate, too. And if you care to read my review, mine is the one titled "A Story for the Ages". It seems to have just been put up.
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How many Shards do you think we've seen in WoT? The pool of pure Saidin in book 1 is very reminiscent of Raoden's pool and Preservation's pool... and the Dark One was kept in a prison in a cycle... and the saidin/saidar interaction? Come on. Therefore clearly the Dragon is a Shard.
I mean, clearly. :o
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1. It's an inside joke between them. "Spook" means "Sneaky" or "Clever" in the street slang. It was a compliment.
This just gives me an even greater reason to like Kelsier. You know Kelsier is one of my favorite characters, and one of the most frustrating parts of the series. When I finished Hero of Ages, I wasn't really sure how big of a part Kelsier played in it. Some of his greatest victories were either the will of Ruin (toppling the Final Empire, destroying the Pits of Hathsin) or so small in the wider scope of the story (killing a single inquisitor.) He just made an impact on a minor part of the whole epic. I find myself wondering if Kelsier wasn't some great man, just another puppet of Ruin trying to do what he thought was the right thing, and was in all reality working to destroy everything.
But after re-reading certain things I realized I was looking at the wrong things as "greatest" actions. Little things like Spook's name, are really what made Kelsier a good man. In an offhand way that no one else could understand, he told that kid he was worth something. "You are not abandoned, you are clever." Kelsier's biggest victories were the subtle ones. Making Spook and Vin understand their self worth, inspiring good men like Ham and Breeze to be great men. Giving a powerful legacy to those who followed. Like Elend. Even though Elend didn't accept Kelsier as a deity, in a way Elend was greater believer in Kelsier than Demoux was. Elend took strongly to things Kelsier talked about, and believed in trying to survive and being optimistic in the face of hopelessness even when Kelsier's own crew were shaken.
Kelsier's influence was more important in the grand scheme of the Mistborn series than his actual actions against the final empire, and I am content with that. Of course finding out he didn't let a little thing like death slow him down, "borrowed" the power of a god, and helped steal victory from the jaws of Ruin helps too. ;)
Perhaps this will help, however. Like most of the leaders of soldiers in this series (Demoux, Wells, and Conrad included,) Goradel is based on and looks like one of my friends. In this case, it's Richard Gordon. He's read the book and cheered for his namesake's sacrifice and eventual victory. So the REAL Goradel knows. ;)
Yeah that helps. As did re-reading the part where Goradel volunteers to take the message. He promised to deliver the message or die trying. And he ended up doing both. I just find his character extremely compelling. If Goradel had met Kelsier in the palace, Kelsier would have killed him without a second thought, killing a traitor to his own people. Which Goradel admitted he was. But it was Vin he met, and that made all the difference. Instead of calling it even with helping to "rescue" Vin, he kept serving with a dedication and loyalty that would make Samwise Gamgee jealous. He died in a wasteland ash, his actions unknown to all except the man who killed him. And yet he is still a hero whose actions helped save the world. I guess it's kind of silly to for me to find a minor character so compelling, but take it as a compliment to your writing that even the minor characters can make an impact on your audience.
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Like many here, I was really sad when Vin and Elend died. It seems unfair that at the end, neither got to live a normal happy life despite all they sacrificed. I suppose it makes sense in that bad things happen to good people all the time, yet I cannot help but wish that they could have been there at the end and see the new world and have children and generally live happily ever after. Sigh. :(
I was not all that comforted or satisfied by Sazeds declaration that he had talked to them in the afterlife and that they still existed in some form somewhere. Maybe because I wish you had shown this talk and shown that they were happy instead of just having Sazed mention it in passing. Or maybe because I am not religious myself and so I have more trouble accepting the idea of afterlife sadly.
Ohwell, Sazed did imply that he might oneday be able to bring them back so maybe we will see them again, even if only as a small part in your next trilogy or perhaps a short story someday. I live in hope *Hint* *Hint* :)
Still, say what you will. The fact that I do feel sad and depressed over the fate of what at the end are nothing more than imaginary people shows your skill as a writer and how attached you managed to make me feel to Vin and Elend. Though maybe the emotion at the end of the next series could be giddy happiness instead? :) I find that, unfortunately, the real world provides all the sadness and depression that one needs. :(
Final question to anyone, people have mentioned that Kelsier had a part at the end of the book. I must have read too quickly and missed it somehow? Or not understood it when I saw it. Can anyone explain?
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Final question to anyone, people have mentioned that Kelsier had a part at the end of the book. I must have read too quickly and missed it somehow? Or not understood it when I saw it. Can anyone explain?
Someone else will have to quote it directly since my Grandma has my copy of HoA, but at the end Sazed tells Spook that he healed the problems caused by flairing tin or too long, as well as making him a full mistborn. He then says that it's a present from Kelsier.
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Actually, after "Preservation" died, Kelsier jumped in and assumed its power for a short time. There are a couple of voices, then, that are from Kelsier, not Ruin. At least, that's what I interpreted from Brandon's post from earlier.
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Actually, after "Preservation" died, Kelsier jumped in and assumed its power for a short time. There are a couple of voices, then, that are from Kelsier, not Ruin. At least, that's what I interpreted from Brandon's post from earlier.
Really? Cool.
Wonder if anyone knows the page numbers of these?
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I don't remember and I lent my HoA out (that seems to be all the rage these days, lending awesome books out :P), but I definitely remember that there are points where Preservation/Kelsier speaks with people. This isn't really a surprise, because in Well of Ascension, Preservation speaks twice to Elend and Sazed.
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I don't remember and I lent my HoA out (that seems to be all the rage these days, lending awesome books out :P), but I definitely remember that there are points where Preservation/Kelsier speaks with people. This isn't really a surprise, because in Well of Ascension, Preservation speaks twice to Elend and Sazed.
I have never been all that good at seeing things like that if they are not obviously pointed to me. Maybe EUOL can explain it later for us blockheaded once he has the time. :) ???
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You aren't blockheaded. It's just the theorizers here (myself included) ripped the first two books to shreds looking for clues like this, and stressing about meaningless "clues", too. Don't feel bad! Your way saves more time in the long run :P
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I don't remember and I lent my HoA out (that seems to be all the rage these days, lending awesome books out :P), but I definitely remember that there are points where Preservation/Kelsier speaks with people. This isn't really a surprise, because in Well of Ascension, Preservation speaks twice to Elend and Sazed.
I have never been all that good at seeing things like that if they are not obviously pointed to me. Maybe EUOL can explain it later for us blockheaded once he has the time. :) ???
Page 408, Kelsier talks to Spook, notably after he removed his spike...
And again on page 445. This time Spook thinks he's dreaming or hallucinating, but I'm fairly sure it's Kel taking to him.
There may be a few other instances, but those are the ones that came to mind.
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Approximately how many people survived, not including those that were on the other side of the planet and the koloss?
Did Sazed leave the other humans on their side of the planet or move them with Spook, Ham, et al?
Regarding the surviving koloss: Are they nearby? Do they act normal? Are there female of their species so they can reproduce?
If Marsh got jiggy with it and reproduced, would he pass any of his abilities to offspring?
How much direct contact would Sazed have with the survivors? I mean could they pray to him and he respond with miracles? Would they go to the kandra, tell them that they need a river from point a to point b, flatten this mountain here and dig a hole here for a nice lake and then Sazed do these things? Or is he going to stay hands off for the most part?
Do you frown upon fan faction?
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Here are some questions I have.
1. Do Vin and Elend get a Survivor title like Spook and Kelsier?
2. Are any of the crew remember when the next series takes place?
3. Why Nicrosil? That alloy contain more nickel than anything else. The other alloy had more of the Allomatic metal than the other element. Don't believe me Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicrosil) it.
4a. Where do they get the Aluminium? I mean it is impossible to get it in its natural form in this World.
4b. Do they have the Aluminium from before the Lord Ruler took over?
5a. You talk about Shards. What are those?
5b. Are Elantris, Warbreaker, and Mistborn all connected thru those shards.
6 What does RAFO mean?
Well I am out of questions. At work, cant remember the others I had.
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Do you frown upon fan faction?
Do you mean fanfiction? And if so, the answer is no. Here's what he said in response to my fanfic I wrote a while ago.
It's always fascinating to see how people interpret my work.
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Here are some questions I have.
1. Do Vin and Elend get a Survivor title like Spook and Kelsier?
2. Are any of the crew remember when the next series takes place?
3. Why Nicrosil? That alloy contain more nickel than anything else. The other alloy had more of the Allomatic metal than the other element. Don't believe me Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicrosil) it.
4a. Where do they get the Aluminium? I mean it is impossible to get it in its natural form in this World.
4b. Do they have the Aluminium from before the Lord Ruler took over?
5a. You talk about Shards. What are those?
5b. Are Elantris, Warbreaker, and Mistborn all connected thru those shards.
6 What does RAFO mean?
Well I am out of questions. At work, cant remember the others I had.
A couple of these have already been answered, at least your questions 5 and 6.
So are all these epic novels in the same universe? Elantris, Mistborn, Dragonsteel, all that?
I'm afraid that question is best left to the rest of you, for now, to discuss.
Ok, I am new write and reading forums, so I'm a little slow on it, so please be kind.....
1.) What if RAFO?
2.) Who is HOID? I have read Elantris and all 3 Mistborns but don't remember the name, am I missing something?
3.) Dragonsteel, is that by Brandon or L. Yep, I am soooo confused.
4.) These Shards everyone is talking about...what are they?
I would be glad for someone to eliminate my ignorance on these matters....
As far as Kel's grabbing the power to Pres to hold for Vin, was it him that whispered to Spook, when Spook was unconscious, to get his message to Vin?
No problem! Welcome. Don't worry. Someone probably answered this already, but I've only skimmed the later pages of the thread, as I'm trying to make my way through the questions.
1) "Read and Find Out." It was one of Robert Jordan's favorite phrases, and I have inherited it. (Symbolically, actually, through his bookmark, which was given to me by his wife. It's a little string one with weights on the end which spell out RAFO.) When I say it, I don't mean it rudely at all--it is intended to mean "I'd rather not say, as this will spoil future books." It doesn't indicate how I'll answer the question, or even if I will answer it. It simply means that if I were to do so now (even to say "I'm not going to include this") I feel it would spoil the enjoyment of future books.
2) Hoid is a mystery which I cannot speak on other than what has been written in the text of the novels. However, I'm sure that others have explained it by now.
3) I just did a post on my website explaining this.
4) RAFO. ;)
Obviously, Brandon is rather tight-lipped on this Shard business, but I will be happy to explain to the best of my ability. "Shard" is short for "Shard of Adonalsium", "Adonalsium" occurring in one of the epigraphs. It's a rather mysterious thing, but Ruin and Preservation are both Shards of Adonalsium, so Adonalsium probably is a vast reservoir of energy of some variety that somehow got split into multiple Shards. That's how I interpret it, but I don't really know, I've just been reading Brandon's posts here and gleaning whatever information I can.
I think a good rule of thumb is that if Hoid appears in a book, then it is part of this connected universe. Brandon has hinted that there is some sort of related cosmology, and that while Ruin and Preservation are the only Shards on Scadriel (name for the Mistborn world), Brandon has also said that there are four other Shards we've encountered.
And we can only surmise what those might be :P
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I reading thru and didnt answer to 5 and 6.
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Ati and Leras. Well, the metal Lerasium creates Mistborn, so if that is the Preservation-metal, thus, Preservation's true name is Leras.
I pondered this for a few minutes and then it occurred to me: of course Ati is Ruin. His metal, after all, is atium. Ati for atium, Leras for Larasium.
Ruin, thus, is Ati, and Preservation is Leras. We have their names now.
Ati is an Aon, isn't it? And so is Ado (Adonalsium). Wasn't the city of Elantris originally called Adonis?
1. The Allomantic table poster will have more info on this.
2. I think I did a post on the circle. The short of it is, that is drawing too much attention. Just because Vin didn't quite understand it doesn't mean it's important. (Though, of course, there are other things she doesn't understand that ARE important.) Also, the lake might be involved more at a later date. See the other posts.
3. No, they're not dead. Yes, Rashek was aware of them. In fact, he placed them there as a reserve. I knew he wanted a 'control' group of people in case his changes to genetics ended with the race being in serious trouble. All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created. And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them--though without anyone among them having burned Larasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.
That's so cool, I'd really like to hear some stories about them as well, that would be cool. Did he keep them under ground maybe?
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No, I just checked my copy of Elantris and the closest thing there is is "Ata". Though, I just have the hardback, so maybe it changed later. Somehow, I doubt Ati's name is deeply intwined with Opelon and that world. That's just... too much.
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Hello all! I'm not a usual forum-goer at all, but this Q&A was just too much to resist...thank you Brandon, not only for the great books (of which I have enjoyed many and the Hero of Ages I think is even better! And yes that includes the ending... :'( ) but also for being so open about them. The blogs, this forum, the annotations. They are what all of us who are addicted to books are looking for.
Anyways, I was just checking to see where those where Kelsier speaks and yes it was twice to Spook from about pg 404 and then at 445. Later on he also talk to Vin in almost the same words he used when alive on pg 491 right after Marsh rips her earring out. At first I thought he had been talking to Marsh also, but then I realized he was definitely still spiked...Marsh really is just that strong-willed.
I really enjoyed the epigraphs. At first I thought they were by Vin, but after reading a few thinking that it was her, I realized that was just too scholarly sounding for her. Even after I guessed Sazed it still gave me no clue as to what would happen at the end! (Unfortunately I like reading too much and so go too fast, forgetting many details from earlier - like the opening line! :D )
Ok so now that I have blabbered a bit, my actual question is about the symbols for the metals. (If this is already in another thread, please point me in the right direction!) I'm assuming the symbols are made up from spikes for hemalurgy, crescents (rings, bracers) for feruchumy and beads for allomancy. Does their placement in these symbols mean anything in terms of their uses? As in, the ones with more spikes be more powerful for hemalurgy? The bead on top for Allomancy? two crescents for feruchumy? Also some "pairs" have symbols that are visibly similar, whereas others are quite different (brass/zinc). hehe...basically I guess I am asking whether there is any meaning to these symbols, or are they just symbols, like our own periodic table? And what are these new symbols used at the beginning of chapters in HoA? Maybe the poster will tell all...or at least some!
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I thought the images at the beginning of MB3 chapters were wisps of air, representing the mists.
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Actually, the symbols in Hero of Ages are just further regressed characters of the same old language.
It was one of the questions we asked Brandon and Issac at the Sam Weller's signing, and we were told that these symbols are supposedly another thousand years before Alendi's time. So where in "today's" world The Lord Ruler has regulated script to make crisp strong writing, way back when it looked like this flowing artistic hand. I think it's actually quite fun to go through and compare how the symbols have progressed.
Another fact is that supposedly these 23 or so characters that can be found at the beginning of each chapter form an actual writable, speakable, language, so if/when Brandon and Issac ever get around releasing it we could all be super-nerds and start writing in "Mistborn language." (Scadrian? Scadrialsh? Scadrialanese?) In addition to that, the letters which correspond to the paired metals also have paired sounds. So the symbol for iron may be a soft "b" sound (As in boy.) and steel would be a soft "p" sound, (as in chop.) because they're both made the same way.
And in relation to your question, koan, I know at least the position of the dot can indicate if it is a pushing or pulling metal. (Inside the circles for pushing, outside the circles for pulling.)
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3. Why Nicrosil? That alloy contain more nickel than anything else. The other alloy had more of the Allomatic metal than the other element.
Not all allomantic alloys have their base metal as their primary component. Brass is paired with zinc, but brass has more copper than zinc in it. And I'll bet you that malatium has more gold than atium in it (because that would be a waste...).
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Interesting. I never would have figured that one out myself. It reminds me a lot how similar "B" syllables and "P" syllabaries are in Japanese.
(Inside the circles for pushing, outside the circles for pushing.)
They both push, Czanos? Lol... You might want to edit that one...
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The alphabet system might be based on Korean (Hangul), since Brandon knows Korean and that's the way Hangul works.
Also, Shavian is a possibility, if Brandon knows about Shavian. (The phonetic for English that was designed in response to a prize offered by George Bernard Shaw.)
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Brandon knows Korean? Hmm, just one more thing that makes me respect the man!
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Whoops. Thanks Chaos.
And it was mostly Issac who set up the language, as Brandon didn't even know about the phonetic pairings and such until the signing when we asked them these questions.
But Hangul sounds familiar, so meh . . . I know it is based off of a real-world language, but I can't remember which. Are there any languages similar to those that have 23 characters?
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Hangul is the name of the Korean alphabet.
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For those interested, the page numbers where Kelsier communicates with Spook (I think, I could be wrong):
Pg. 407 - "You want to be like Kelsier? Really like Kelsier? Then fight when you are beaten!"
Pg. 408 - "I named you, Spook. You were my friend. Isn't that enough?"
Pg. 445- "And that's why you absolutely must get that message sent, Spook. The pieces of this thing are all spinning about, cast to the wind. You have a clue that nobody else does. Send it flying for me."
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So I have a couple of questions....
I loved the book, it was all great UNTIL Vin and especially ELEND died. I can see why you did it, but I was crying so hard when Vin confirmed Elend was dead. I actually had an urge to burn the books right then and there and pretend it had never happened. Either way, I continued reading and then found some sliver of hope when Sazed said he hadn't figured out how to restore the souls YET, he said he would get better at it.
1)Does that mean that he might someday, maybe, hopefully (pretty please) bring them back to life? I suspect that you might not answer, but can I atleast hope? Cause if anyone deserved to live a full NORMAL life it was Vin and Elend. Besides, it would ROCK if Elend and Kelsier ever got to meet each other......
Awe man.....i'm still crying over Elend....Is it wrong I get so attatched to characters? Its just that Elend and Vin got so little time together. It's so sad. Which reminds me: You mentioned, when someone asked about sazed meeting twindyl again, that he hadn't because he hadn't reached that space where souls were and the ones that were trapped in the in between were the ones that had a connection with either the physical or the concious world. Those weren't the exact words but it was something like that that IMPLIED that Vin, Elend and Kel were somehow still connected with the earth because unlike twindyl the hadn't progressed past that in between place.
2) Am I right and maybe going somewhere, or am I talking total nonsense and simply trying to cope with the loss of Elend?
One of the reasons for that line at the end is to give you, the reader, the power and authority to bring to the characters the ending you wish. I may do more in this series, but until then, please take the future of the characters wherever you want in your own mind. (Also, you mention that they had such little time together--which is true, but also remember that there was a year between books one and two, then another year between books two and three. They spent most of this time together.)
The door is open for a return of Elend and Vin. Will I write it? It isn't likely to be soon, if I ever even do. Does that mean it won't happen? No. Not at all. If I write more Mistborn books, they will be hundreds of years in the future. During that time, Sazed could have learned to get souls into bodies, given Vin and Elend a life together somewhere away from the others, where they wouldn't have to struggle quite so much like they did through their lives, then ushered their souls on to the beyond. Or they could hang around with him, working with him as he takes his next steps to shepherd humankind on Scadrial. Or neither of the above. Imagine it how you wish, for I'm not going to set this one in stone for quite some time, if ever.
Ok thanx, that makes me feel better. I guess I'm finally over the shock of it all anyway, I have another question.
when Vin was about to pull Marsh's last spike, why didn't she? I mean I know she kinda dissapeared and turned into mist, but was that on purpose or did Ruin somehow make her mesh into the mist quicker so that she couldn't kill marsh?
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I got the impression she would have had enough time, but she hesitated because he reminded her of Kelsier.
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Hi all. I thoroughly enjoyed HoA - and the whole series. Being a new poster here, I can't prove to you what I predicted and what I failed to predict, so the strutting and blushing will just have to happen in the privacy of my own head. Anyway, here are some particular comments/questions/strawmen.
1. Anomaly among the temporal metals. OK, I've seen the comment that two metals are diagonally opposite when they ought to have been adjacent, but I also find it odd that gold is described as letting you see into your own past. When Vin burned it in FE, she saw alternative versions of what she might be now or in the future. If that's looking into the past (like seeing one image of the Lord Ruler in his packman days), then it's somehow done a U-turn and worked its way forward in time again.
2. Useless silver. Did we ever hear of someone trying to burn silver? Did it cause a 'bad metal headache'? If not, perhaps it simply lets you see your own past, which you don't notice because you remember it anyway.
3. Aluminium mistings. Yes, that would be almost pointless. But if the link between ingested aluminium and Alzheimer's disease holds, at least you could protect yourself by burning it away as it arrives in trace quantities in your food.
4. Chromium mistings. What would they be called (as in Lurcher, Rioter, etc)? I'm guessing it'd be unprintable. "Heeey, some [unprintable] just depleted my metals!"
5. Voices in heads. Since POV characters think to themselves in italics already, I assumed that that was what Spook was doing at the times when Kelsier spoke to him, and that the one about sharing the possibly-vital unique piece of the puzzle was an extraordinary burst of intuition. Good smokescreen, and/or silly me. ;-)
6. Zane's creepy fetish. I hope this is OK to mention here, since it is in WoA. Now that we know more about spiking, it seems like he wanted Ruin somehow to 'participate' with the herbalist (whose name I forget) and with Vin. Eww.
7. Movie/TV adaptation. I kept pausing while reading, to wonder about that too. It'd probably feel grimmer, because the red sun and bedraggled plants and ash would be in our faces a lot of the time. No relieving spells of getting distracted by the dialogue and plot. The ending could be a bit reminiscent of the original release of Blade Runner, what with its sudden wholesome and happy appearance. I can certainly imagine the promotional posters... A scarred forearm and hand, perhaps holding a coin, with the caption "I am hope"... that sort of thing.
8. Mormonism. I probably wouldn't recognise a distinctive LDS doctrine if it bit me, but it was interesting that the ending had such a strong "The meek shall inherit the earth" theme - a generic Christian thing. See who's left. Spook minus his spike, Beldre, Breeze, Allrianne, and Ham who recently came out with a rare piece of unequivocal advice against storming Fadrex City. All watched over by Sazed. OK, Marsh is more arguable, but his POV chapters do have a bit of a running-away-from-things theme.
9. Who wrote the epigraphs. Once it turned out to be from the current era, I also thought of the scholarly characters: Sazed, or Elend reverting to his pre-Tindwyl ways. The "I am, unfortunately, ..." wording in a Sazed POV chapter made him seem too obvious, so I started casting around for another twist, and ended up thinking it was Sazed as a ghost-writer for Vin (who doesn't much like reading and writing). Whoops. Overreached on that one.
10. Symmetry. Since there's so much overt symmetry, I went looking for more. Consider a love triangle, where the happy couple both die as self-sacrificing martrys, and the third wheel ends up still alive and very powerful. That could describe Elend-Vin-Spook, or Kelsier-Mare-Marsh. Or I could be overreaching again.
11. Trust. Great choice of title for the final part! One of my favourite things from FE and WoA was how Vin gradually overcame her abandonment issues. For instance, I was going "YES!" on the inside when she chose to turn to Elend first after her fight with Zane -- throwing aside the I-can't-let-him-see-me-like-this anxiety. And then, in HoA, the abandonment issues turn out to be part of the plot, not 'just' free-standing character development. Again, "YES!" And so much of the final denial of Ruin depended on people doing what they could and trusting that it would make a difference.
12. Martyrdom of Vin and Elend. I have no problem with it. They'd been prepared on previous occasions to lay down their own lives (and each other's!), but happened to get away with it. A story would be too bright and cheesy if everyone who took heroic risks always survived. And in this case, they were already both thoroughly on board with the whole trust thing.
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Hello.
Read through your entire post, agreed with most of it, enjoyed the other perspectives and whatnot.
Then I got to your signature and fell into bits of laughter.
Thanks for making my day. (And I promise I'll try to get more adequate sleep in the future.)
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Pg. 407 - "You want to be like Kelsier? Really like Kelsier? Then fight when you are beaten!"
Not too sure about that one, but I think you're right on the other ones.The reason I think this may seem naive, but, in the other 2, the speaker addresses Spook by name, which the quote from 407 doesn't have. I also could be wrong, though.
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Hello.
Read through your entire post, agreed with most of it, enjoyed the other perspectives and whatnot.
Then I got to your signature and fell into bits of laughter.
Thanks for making my day. (And I promise I'll try to get more adequate sleep in the future.)
I am just noticing it now it is hilarious!
Man, doing calculus after reading that is tough...
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Nonsense, calculus is never tough. You just have to find the second antiderivative of a non-polynomic equation, how hard could it be?
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Nah, just some applications of integration. Arc length, you know. It's not hard, just tedious. When you laugh this hard, you can miss a negative sign pretty easily.
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4. Chromium mistings. What would they be called (as in Lurcher, Rioter, etc)? I'm guessing it'd be unprintable. "Heeey, some [unprintable] just depleted my metals!"
expletive as in "[Expletive], some [expletive] just depleted my [expletive] metals!"
10. Symmetry. Since there's so much overt symmetry, I went looking for more. Consider a love triangle, where the happy couple both die as self-sacrificing martrys, and the third wheel ends up still alive and very powerful. That could describe Elend-Vin-Spook, or Kelsier-Mare-Marsh. Or I could be overreaching again.
didn't Vin turn Spook down though? I thought if anyone would have come between Vin and Elend, it would be the memory of Kelsier....sometimes I could swear Vin had a crush on him.
Nonsense, calculus is never tough. You just have to find the second antiderivative of a non-polynomic equation, how hard could it be?
Posted on: Today at 09:31:10 PMPosted by: Chaos2651
I have to take Business Calc next semester... I could really use Atium!
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Yes, iirc Vin did turn Spook down. By calling that situation a love triangle, I only meant that he carried a torch for her for quite a while afterwards.
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Buisness Calc probably won't get anywhere near as complicated as my previous post implied. I was using as many complicated sounding calculus terms on purpose to sound complicated. I used to tutor calculus, and really, if you can do algebra, then calculus is a walk in the park, especially Business Calc.
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Okay, here's a question for Brandon: Can you tell us what the rest of the Feruchemical abilities are, for those higher metals?
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The discussion of Hoid and the possibility that many (if not most) of your novels take place in the same universe started me thinking about the epigraphs in Mistborn. Put that together with your current project, and...
MISTBORN and THE WHEEL OF TIME are one and the same universe! Sadly, that doesn't boad well for Rand Alendi. ;D
But, on a serious note, when reading Mistborn I was struck with the incredible similarities between Alendi's quest and the Wheel of Time. While the WoT is certainly not unique in its common "common man discovering he is the hero prophesied to save the world" theme, that plot, when combined with early admiration for the WoT, seems like too much of a coincidence.
1. Because MISTBORN, at least in its marketing, was based on the premise of the hero failing in his quest, and your current project to finish the Wheel of Time series, have you felt any guilt over the past year in writing a series that in many ways is based on attacking that very cliche?
Of course, I am a long-time fan of the WoT, and as I new fan of your works, I would note that I would not place any blame or suggest any guilt (I am only wondering if the thought had at one point crossed your mind). Indeed, while bookstores these days are filled with that common cliche (really, I am suprised that the names don't run together already, considering the number of similarly themed fantasy novels), Robert Jordan's works are among the the truly great in that category, and likely are among the reasons there are so many copycats (by the way, I find your works uniquely original and creative).
Among the many virtues that I have seen in your novels, the ability to tie together every last thread (something I had not experienced in the Fantasy genre until reading Elantris), none of them loose for a moment, at least in retrospect, reaffirms my faith/trust (I've got to admit, I saw that one coming through my entire reading of Hero of Ages, and was captivated by Sazed's struggle) in your ability to finish WoT.
Of course, the size and scope of the series will by necessity leave out some minor details. Of that, however, I am content. You need not worry about tying in every little, out of the way, colorfully named inn with the resolution of the story. "The Queen's Blessing" and its ilk will always have a special place in my heart regardless.
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I'd like to join the chorus in thanking you for one of the most gripping trilogies I've ever read in my life.
And since no first post is ever really complete w/o the "throw crazy theory at audience and author” here’s mine. It seems that the world has come full circle, in more ways than one. I think the original act of breaking off the shard of Preservation in order to create sentience is what caused the unity of the two powers to the broken. With Ruin dominant in the unified entity the dark force's primary goal was to probably split itself from the whole since killing a God ranks pretty high in ruinous actions, and it would give the force greater autonomy to not have to share a mind with its opposite twin.
Perhaps after the break the intelligence behind the forces died and they just reminded abstract powers until like minded people drew them in. Which might explain why the Gods had human bodies.
Hm, though now that I think about it, a fair amount of canon states Creation and Ruin were separate when humans were created...
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Just finished reading this yesterday, and have let it percolate for a day. Loved the book, and personally I think the ending just fits with the story - as Ruin and Preservation were in a sense ended, so were Vin and Elend. With all the other balances and symmetry, it just has a certain kind of sense to me (Although I'd love to see some mention of them having come back in any future thing!). But I do have a question or two that occurred to me (apologies if these have been answered or i missed something in the book itself):
1) If metal interferes with Ruin - he can't read messages in it, and so forth - then how is he able to modify the Keeper's coppermind memories?
2) If I'm following right, as Atium was the body of Ruin, the metal that the Preservation 'beads' that create Allomancers is composed of was (part of) the body of Preservation. Where did these 'beads' that create Allomancers come from, and is there any particular reason why that metal is so much rarer in the world than Atium is? And if Atium slowly, over centuries, regrows, why (apparantly) does the Preservation metal not?
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I thought of a few more questions today:
1) Why did the Inquisitors need to rest so much in book one? There wasn't anything else mentioned about it afterwards.
2) Exactly how did Zane's cutting himself help to block Ruin's voice?
3)Does Marsh still have an Atium spike?
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I thought of a few more questions today:
1) Why did the Inquisitors need to rest so much in book one? There wasn't anything else mentioned about it afterwards.
Actually, it meantions something about that in one of the epigraphs. I'm thinking it was towards the end of the series.
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Yes, that's what I seem to remember. They need to rest so much because of their healing Feruchemical ability. They need to rest so much in order to charge that up, so they seem that much powerful when they need to do actual fighting.
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Wow. Simply amazing book. Reading it felt like being in a thunderstorm the last few chapters. Simply amazing. Congratulations on a beautiful work of art.
Most of all, you made me think.
But I'm also shocked that no one else seemed to have figured out that Sazed was the Hero of Ages. I thought it might be him when I started the book, but it could as easily have been Vin or Elend.
http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6132.0
teh heh heh!! My theory of Sazed as hero is correct...right down to the fact that the copperminds would be useful for rebuilding the world....although that wasn't quite the way I meant it!!
I also just want to announce one more time that it was NOT Rashek who wrote the epigraphs!! And while the bet between Andrew and I didn't force me to put forth Sazed as writing them, I said somewhere that I thought he would be the author.
Ok. Now you can all make fun of me for my ridiculous hemalurgy theories.
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That's right. What was I thinking? They needed to store health. OK, forget the first question.
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Wow. Simply amazing book. Reading it felt like being in a thunderstorm the last few chapters. Simply amazing. Congratulations.
But I'm also shocked that no one else seemed to have figured out that Sazed was the Hero of Ages. I thought it might be him when I started the book, but it could as easily have been Vin or Elend.
http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6132.0
tee hee hee!! My theory of Sazed as hero is correct...right down to the fact that the copperminds would be useful for rebuilding the world....although that wasn't quite the way I meant it!!
I also just want to announce one more time that it was NOT Rashek who wrote the epigraphs!! And while the bet between Andrew and I didn't force me to put forth Sazed as writing them, I said somewhere that I thought he would be the author.
Ok. Now you can all make fun of me for my ridiculous hemalurgy theories.
I can't help but notice, Reaves, that you don't have any Hemalurgy theories in the Final Theories topic :P
Of course, most of my theories were destroyed, but I am blaming this on the fact that I had so many theories that naturally, most would be eliminated. Yup, it certainly doesn't have to do with the fact that I think way too hard.
However, if you look at the Countdown thread, one of my last ideas was that the atium cache was the thing Ruin wanted. I didn't know how it worked, but hey, it's the principle of the thing. I called that one out.
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lol actually I did have a hemalurgy theory. However, I was so far off that I put it under MIST-BURNING. All I can say is I was deceived by Ruin.
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I can't say enough good things about this book. There really isn't a word that adequately describes how wonderful, spectacular, and amazing this book is. It answers all the promised questions, and takes you on a crazy philosophical and emotional rollercoaster. There were several times that I made verbal exclamations as I was reading the book--that was how physically and mentally I was into the story. I was in no way disappointed, even though I was sad about Vin and Elend. I understand that it just needed to happen that way. But it adds to the emotional poignancy of the book.
This isn't really specific to HoA, but I'd love to see some kind of pronunciation guide for Mistborn terms and names. The first time I met Brandon, I was terrified I was going to slaughter pronunciation. For instance, is atium pronounced with a long "a" or a short "a"?
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Well, I am a newbie and I know that I am going to get Flamed for this, I apparently am going against the flow here, but:
I HATE IT!! Well not really, but I do hate that the two best characters that I came to know over the last 3 books gets killed!
Come ON. Haven't they Sacrificed enough? Say three books worth?
Sure, I know that it is necessary to occasionally kill great characters to give a story a more realistic feel and to give it the atmosphere of a dangerous world and add to the suspense. But to kill the two MAIN characters right at the end for no reason other than to shock - does not ring my bell.
Sorry, but the "well I've talked to them and they are happy where they are and they need a rest" thing did not help me. If death is so good let's all go out and jump in front of a few trains, so we can all be happy and rest also.
I understand Kel (except that he did not even fight), Doc and Clubs dying, Those happened at normal places to (as I said before) give a story a more realistic feel and to give it the atmosphere of a dangerous world and add to the suspense plus for plot progression. But with Vin and El I just think that they could have been incapacitated in other ways to accomplish the same end. It's your book and your story though, but next time around I think that I'll wait until the whole set is out and then read the reviews first to see if they say something similar happens before I invest my time, and emotional well being.
Other than that, it was a SUPER book!
A few OTHER points:
1. Why if Vin had to be "Tuned" to Preservation" by the Well - did Kesler and Sazed (the real HoA) not have to be?
2. Why after Preservation "died" (after he visited Elend) and Vin had sent her erring into Marsh's head, then she went directly out to help Elend and the army kill Kloss (without the erring) did the Mists not do the massive surge into her at that time?
3. If Sazed was the HoA all along and he never had a spike in him, why did the Mists not go directly into him much earlier in books 1, 2 or 3? Why wait, he was available ALL that time and was in the mists many times, what kept them away?
4. Why would Atrim Mistings take extra time to heal from the mist attacks compared to other Mistings? I would have thought it would have been Mistborn that took longer. I think that it would have made the fight at the "Homeland" much more believable if they were all discovered to be Mistborn so that they could have had "Pewter" to give them strength and endurance as well as the Atium, because even with massive Atium they would have quickly become too exhausted to fight. If they were all Mistborn it would have made it much more realistic (to me).
5. Why did Sazed not “Heal” Marsh from the spikes? And the Kanda/Kloss back to Humans? Did he heal all the Terris eunuchs and the injured soldiers? What about all the people in all the villages that were not near a cavern?
6. Back in WoA the OreSeur / TenSon swap had too many clues for me - Actually I guessed that one immediately and then it had about 5 more clues that kept pounding away at it.
Other than that - It was truly a SUPER trilogy and I really hope you do another based 20 – 100 years out. I really think that there is a lot more to explore in this world BEFORE you do the modern one. Especially, with the Terris (Feruchemists) breeding with Allomancers.
I was really surprised that you did not have a few (very skilled) Coinshots doing the flying thing. They would have to be much more skilled than the average Mistborn to keep from landing too hard but as long as they had coins/bits of metal they should be able to do it.
I can’t say enough praise for how you invented the four related magic systems and linked the magic and story all together excellently!!
BUT YOU KILLED THEM!!! I can’t get over that!!! I have therapy scheduled every day for the next year – I’ll send you the bill. ;)
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......wooooooooooooooah......
I still can't stop thinking that in my head. It's all that's really coming to mind at the moment.
I made the stupid mistake of finishing the book this afternoon in a public place. Therefore I looked like a complete moron as I burst into tears when Elend died. I think it was a good ending. I'm still not totally decided on that. I'm just in shock.
It's just so amazing how the books progressed, developing into this huge cosmic epic that I never expected from just reading The Final Empire a year ago. I guess in some sense what I'm feeling is a slight sense of... awe, maybe? I want to know how he comes up with stuff. I mean seriously, talk about not just writing another fantasy series.
But I'm also shocked that no one else seemed to have figured out that Sazed was the Hero of Ages. I thought it might be him when I started the book, but it could as easily have been Vin or Elend. But at about a third of the way through, page 215 to be exact, there was this line from Sazed thinking in his head:
"I am, unforunately, in charge."
Sound familiar?
"I am, unfortunately, the Hero of Ages."
No one else would have used the same wording as Sazed did when he was thinking to himself. I have to assume that was intentional on Brandon's part. It was very subtle... I'm actually surprised I noticed.
I'm gratified that you noticed. The Terris dialect IS very subtle. That speech pattern is one hint, the other is the use of "I think" to soften phrases at the ending. Beyond that, Sazed speaks with compound, complex sentences using frequent hedging to indicate that he's often uncertain. (That's another Terris speech pattern, not wanting to offend with language.)
The epigraphs in this book particularly (though I did it for Kwaan too) are intended to "sound" Terris, and like Sazed in particular. I didn't think anyone would catch it. You made my day!
Wow, I made Brandon Sanderson's day!
That totally, well... made my day. lol ;D
Also, Roader, I know how you feel. I too became waaaay too emotionally involved with the characters, especially Elend. I'm not sure what it was about him, but he just struck me as an awesomely fabulous character. But it was just too easy to do because Brandon wrote the characters so believably and made them so lovable. I guess, though, this is kind of a good problem for an author to have.
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Roader, shocking the reader wasn't the reason. I think this has been discussed a few times in the thread already; you might want to come back after reading the rest.
I do feel your pain, though. I loved Vin and Elend.
For instance, is atium pronounced with a long "a" or a short "a"?
Knowing Brandon's penchant for "long" English vowels, I'd say long "a." (Same with Sazed.) Plus I'm pretty sure I've heard him pronounce it in person...
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My answer would be: Depends on who's saying it. Honestly its a to-may-to to-mah-to type thing as far as I'm concerned. Though personally I prefer A-tium to At-ium.
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A couple more 'off the cuff' questions.
Would someone with Achlorhydia have difficulties burning metals? That is, do stomach acids have anything to do with the equation or just the fact that the metals make it to the stomach?
Could a Feruchemist commit bad memories to metal minds to effectively forget them? Can memories be lost forever in the metal minds if they aren't properly indexed?
Had a couple others but I am off to the Brandon Sanderson signing.
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Mistborn can't be over--the very ending is a beginning for a continuation. Think about it: a new world, a new god, no rulers, no laws.
You see, i think that Preservation and Ruin were merely lesser deities. How can we know this? well, we still don't know where the prophecies originated from. It couldn't have been from Ruin--because he wouldn't alter his own writing. Nor Preservation, because he would have the sense to write it in metal, or atleast know that writing the prophecies was pointless. Another thing, Ruin would have tried to kill or control Sazed, and Preservation would have confronted him in the shape of the mist spirit...they did not. I wonder if they even had a clue.
Perhaps they were the SonGods of a Father Deity. Perhaps just Gods of the world amongst other gods of other worlds. Or universes. I just don't believe they were the top most gods.
They might not have even been gods. Sazed said it himself. They were the two aspects that a god would have. So if they weren't god, and just powerful beings...who is God?
No, this is definitely not over.
Oops! almost forgot. Since Dear Vin did infact merge with the mist, i will be expecting my dubbing soon.
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Mistborn can't be over--the very ending is a beginning for a continuation. Think about it: a new world, a new god, no rulers, no laws.
You see, i think that Preservation and Ruin were merely lesser deities. How can we know this? well, we still don't know where the prophecies originated from. It couldn't have been from Ruin--because he wouldn't alter his own writing. Nor Preservation, because he would have the sense to write it in metal, or atleast know that writing the prophecies was pointless. Another thing, Ruin would have tried to kill or control Sazed, and Preservation would have confronted him in the shape of the mist spirit...they did not. I wonder if they even had a clue.
Perhaps they were the SonGods of a Father Deity. Perhaps just Gods of the world amongst other gods of other worlds. Or universes. I just don't believe they were the top most gods.
They might not have even been gods. Sazed said it himself. They were the two aspects that a god would have. So if they weren't god, and just powerful beings...who is God?
No, this is definitely not over.
Oops! almost forgot. Since Dear Vin did infact merge with the mist, i will be expecting my dubbing soon.
You make several good points. Unfortunately, you also seemed to have missed some pretty important world-building tidbits that EUOL dropped for us in this thread. I'm just saying that if you go back and read closely, you'll get some vocabulary and ideas that will make your ideas fit what Brandon has said much better. Your basis isn't completely crazy.
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Mistborn can't be over--the very ending is a beginning for a continuation. Think about it: a new world, a new god, no rulers, no laws.
You see, i think that Preservation and Ruin were merely lesser deities. How can we know this? well, we still don't know where the prophecies originated from. It couldn't have been from Ruin--because he wouldn't alter his own writing. Nor Preservation, because he would have the sense to write it in metal, or atleast know that writing the prophecies was pointless. Another thing, Ruin would have tried to kill or control Sazed, and Preservation would have confronted him in the shape of the mist spirit...they did not. I wonder if they even had a clue.
Perhaps they were the SonGods of a Father Deity. Perhaps just Gods of the world amongst other gods of other worlds. Or universes. I just don't believe they were the top most gods.
They might not have even been gods. Sazed said it himself. They were the two aspects that a god would have. So if they weren't god, and just powerful beings...who is God?
No, this is definitely not over.
Oops! almost forgot. Since Dear Vin did infact merge with the mist, i will be expecting my dubbing soon.
She merged with the mist, not the mist spirit. Said merging also has nothing to do with the mist spirit being previous HoAs like you thought, too, because the mist spirit is just Preservation.
Actually, Preservation did create the Prophecies. I asked Brandon who created the prophecies and he said:
3. The Terris prophesies were created by Preservation before he attempted his imprisonment. He knew that he wouldn't be able to do much for the world after he did what he did, and he foresaw a LOT of what was to come.
That being said, Ruin and Preservation are just Shards of Adonalsium, not Adonalsium itself. There are other shards.
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A couple more 'off the cuff' questions.
Would someone with Achlorhydia have difficulties burning metals? That is, do stomach acids have anything to do with the equation or just the fact that the metals make it to the stomach?
I don't even know if they have to make it to the stomach. We have characters who can down a vial of metal shavings and then instantly use their abilities, whereas it normally takes about 8 hours for food to travel down to the stomach. (If i remember Biology class correctly.) It might only need to be swallowed.
Also the term "Shards" of Adonalsium makes me think that whatever created the universe was broken off, and Ruin/Preservation are just parts of that. Or maybe it was never together in the first place, and all the Shards had to work together.
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Mistborn can't be over--the very ending is a beginning for a continuation. Think about it: a new world, a new god, no rulers, no laws.
You see, i think that Preservation and Ruin were merely lesser deities. How can we know this? well, we still don't know where the prophecies originated from. It couldn't have been from Ruin--because he wouldn't alter his own writing. Nor Preservation, because he would have the sense to write it in metal, or atleast know that writing the prophecies was pointless. Another thing, Ruin would have tried to kill or control Sazed, and Preservation would have confronted him in the shape of the mist spirit...they did not. I wonder if they even had a clue.
Perhaps they were the SonGods of a Father Deity. Perhaps just Gods of the world amongst other gods of other worlds. Or universes. I just don't believe they were the top most gods.
They might not have even been gods. Sazed said it himself. They were the two aspects that a god would have. So if they weren't god, and just powerful beings...who is God?
No, this is definitely not over.
Oops! almost forgot. Since Dear Vin did infact merge with the mist, i will be expecting my dubbing soon.
She merged with the mist, not the mist spirit. Said merging also has nothing to do with the mist spirit being previous HoAs like you thought, too, because the mist spirit is just Preservation.
Actually, Preservation did create the Prophecies. I asked Brandon who created the prophecies and he said:
3. The Terris prophesies were created by Preservation before he attempted his imprisonment. He knew that he wouldn't be able to do much for the world after he did what he did, and he foresaw a LOT of what was to come.
That being said, Ruin and Preservation are just Shards of Adonalsium, not Adonalsium itself. There are other shards.
Okay, but if Terr could foresee everything that would happen. doesn't that mean he knew that the world would undergo a thousand years of struggle and nearly crumble and end just to return to the way it was when created? Did he really not like Ruin that much? Or is there a something bigger in play? How far did he see? Did he realize that the world would need the powers of them both combined and knew that Ruin wouldn't provide his half. What is going to happen that would make it necessary for their to be a single god?
Really, i don't believe this is over. I think that again its just beginning. This part will be a historical reference just like Alendi and Rashek. What they did was the pinnacle for their destiny and the spark of a massive chain of events. Its far too open ended to be over...
I guess i just can't let go.
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A couple more 'off the cuff' questions.
Would someone with Achlorhydia have difficulties burning metals? That is, do stomach acids have anything to do with the equation or just the fact that the metals make it to the stomach?
I don't even know if they have to make it to the stomach. We have characters who can down a vial of metal shavings and then instantly use their abilities, whereas it normally takes about 8 hours for food to travel down to the stomach. (If i remember Biology class correctly.) It might only need to be swallowed.
Also the term "Shards" of Adonalsium makes me think that whatever created the universe was broken off, and Ruin/Preservation are just parts of that. Or maybe it was never together in the first place, and all the Shards had to work together.
Uh, the 8 hour figure is for it to get back out of the body after you eat it. Stuff you eat gets to the stomach less than a minute afterwards...
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Wanted to say that this is a great series. I loved all of it. In fact I'm going to have to go back and read it all over again, just because I read way too fast and not closely enough to catch everything on the first run through.
I was very very sad to see Elend and Vin die at the end (the entire time she "was" Preservation I kept screaming that she's gotta come back down and say bye to Elend - I think I managed to make my brother mad for that one :)) but the imagery of when Spook found their bodies at the end sorta made it "ok" for me. They were holding hands, possibly showing that their love transcended even their deaths. You don't always get that in stories - I mean sure a lot of characters are always saying that they'll love each other forever, but I don't feel the stories always SHOW that.
A few things caught me by surprise: Sazed's "true" purpose...how the Koloss/Iquisitors/Kandra were made (especially the Koloss - I sat back and blinked for about five minutes over that one)...the location of the Kandra Homeland (hah right under the Lord Ruler's nose!)...the function of the mists (well in this book particularly)...
I also wanted to say that I absolutely loved how Vin (and Elend, though I didn't relate to him that much in this aspect) finally managed to piece together her identity - that she could happily attend balls and dance away the night while playing polite politics one minute and then turn around and become a necessary assassin the next. It really struck a chord within myself since it's been something I've been struggling with myself recently (two disparate "personalities" not so much with the assassinating ;) ). It's heartening to know that it is possible (and I don't think its something that I've come across a lot in the novels I've read)
Well that's just my two cents...
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I also wanted to say that I absolutely loved how Vin (and Elend, though I didn't relate to him that much in this aspect) finally managed to piece together her identity - that she could happily attend balls and dance away the night while playing polite politics one minute and then turn around and become a necessary assassin the next. It really struck a chord within myself since it's been something I've been struggling with myself recently (two disparate "personalities" not so much with the assassinating ;) ). It's heartening to know that it is possible (and I don't think its something that I've come across a lot in the novels I've read)
Well that's just my two cents...
I really liked this part of the story as well. And I was very grateful for the ball scene. In my opinion it was one of the best in the book. They were one of the highlights of the first book, and I missed them in the second.
Also, my favorite line comes from that scene, where Vin gets a little huffy that some of the girls are fawning over Elend and makes that comment about how she'd loved Elend before he became dreamy. ;D
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I also wanted to say that I absolutely loved how Vin (and Elend, though I didn't relate to him that much in this aspect) finally managed to piece together her identity - that she could happily attend balls and dance away the night while playing polite politics one minute and then turn around and become a necessary assassin the next. It really struck a chord within myself since it's been something I've been struggling with myself recently (two disparate "personalities" not so much with the assassinating ;) ). It's heartening to know that it is possible (and I don't think its something that I've come across a lot in the novels I've read)
Well that's just my two cents...
I really liked this part of the story as well. And I was very grateful for the ball scene. In my opinion it was one of the best in the book. They were one of the highlights of the first book, and I missed them in the second.
Also, my favorite line comes from that scene, where Vin gets a little huffy that some of the girls are fawning over Elend and makes that comment about how she'd loved Elend before he became dreamy. ;D
that was very womanly of her. but i didn't buy the whole love portion of this book--everything else i liked very much.
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I also wanted to say that I absolutely loved how Vin (and Elend, though I didn't relate to him that much in this aspect) finally managed to piece together her identity - that she could happily attend balls and dance away the night while playing polite politics one minute and then turn around and become a necessary assassin the next. It really struck a chord within myself since it's been something I've been struggling with myself recently (two disparate "personalities" not so much with the assassinating ;) ). It's heartening to know that it is possible (and I don't think its something that I've come across a lot in the novels I've read)
Well that's just my two cents...
I really liked this part of the story as well. And I was very grateful for the ball scene. In my opinion it was one of the best in the book. They were one of the highlights of the first book, and I missed them in the second.
Also, my favorite line comes from that scene, where Vin gets a little huffy that some of the girls are fawning over Elend and makes that comment about how she'd loved Elend before he became dreamy. ;D
I simply loved the ball scene. In Book One, I thought it was a little strange to have ball scenes, but I soon fell in love with them later in that book. The ball in this one definitely provided some nice parallelism between MB1 and MB3, and that line is easily one of the most memorable ones in MB3, if not the entire trilogy.
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I also was a huge fan of the ball scenes. I laughed out loud at least once in every ball in the trillogy. I was kind of sad that Well of Ascension didn't have a single ball...
Hero of Ages very much returned to the roots of the first book in a couple of ways, I loved the parts with Spook in Urteau, I loved the ball scene...
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This was one of the most emotionally and intellectually satisfying books I've read in a long time. It makes me feel that 95% of what I read is just filler, between the truly incredible books that make me think and feel and sometimes cry for an embarrassing length of time.
HoA felt very much like an Orson Scott Card novel to me, especially ones like Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide because there was a lot of philosophy that relates to LDS theology. It is sort of sneaky, I don't think anyone not LDS would notice, and I don't think you get less from it, but I felt an added connection through ideas such as opposition, the relationship between agency and free will and others I can't remember right now because I finished a few days ago and my husband has the book now.
Of course, it could be just me reacting to things that resonate with my own personal philosophy? But in either case it was an absolutely incredible book.
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I also was a huge fan of the ball scenes. I laughed out loud at least once in every ball in the trillogy. I was kind of sad that Well of Ascension didn't have a single ball...
Hero of Ages very much returned to the roots of the first book in a couple of ways, I loved the parts with Spook in Urteau, I loved the ball scene...
the well of ascension was a necessity. Though everyone seems to think it a harder read. Im not sure that HOA would have been palpable if WOA wasn't written the way it was...
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As a relatively new fan of Brandon’s work, I thought I’d thrown in my two cents. Cough.. boxings, I mean.
First, I’ll take a stab at answering a question:
Roader said:
4. Why would Atrim Mistings take extra time to heal from the mist attacks compared to other Mistings?
Preservation was behind the whole mist sickness (as evidenced by the #16 phenomenon). Therefore, my guess is that Atium Mistings took longer to heal because Preservation made them sicker. It must have been trying to let people know that this group was important. Elend eventually got the message. And why couldn’t they have been Mistborn instead? Well, Mistborn are rarer, and there was a lot of Atium to be burned up.
And I’ll ask some questions of my own:
1. The 1st gen Kandra knew all about Ruin/Preservation, but apparently the Terris people didn’t, otherwise they wouldn’t have been duped. I figure Kwaan dug out the truth since we were told that he noticed Ruin changing the prophecies. How was the rest of the story discovered and passed on? How the heck did Kwaan or Rashek learn that Ruin was blinded by metal?
2. I was a little confused by the transition between Vin, broken and defeated, and Vin, the walking juggernaut. Were her broken bones healed by the infusion of Mist? Were they ignored through an enhancement of pewter? Was her body already beginning to become less corporeal?
Finally, some thoughts on the ending (I'll try to be a little original):
There are a few things that bothered me about the ending. For example, I’m not sure how I feel about Sazed becoming a god, or rather, thinking of himself as one. Although he inherited great power, humility was one of his defining personality traits. And his intense faith struggle seems to be undermined by his ascension. Who/what exactly was he struggling with if he himself becomes god at the end? (Admittedly the “Shards” discussion comforts me. Sazed needs something more ultimate, more fundamental, more mysterious, to continue trusting in, now that he's taken up the mantle of the Terris god. Ado might fit the bill)
Another thing: The humans hijack the whole epilogue. We’ve been told that Marsh and TenSoon live on, but the book itself leaves us in the dark. Marsh was the viewpoint character most tortured and twisted by Ruin. And TenSoon spends most of the book deciding to help Vin and trying to find Vin, but ‘kills’ himself and never gets to see even Vin’s corpse. I think they both needed one last brush stroke for us to be able to appreciate their tragedies and triumphs.
However, I honestly can’t agree with the negative reactions to Vin and Elend dying. Elend’s death was possibly my favorite scene in the whole book. “Lost?” Elend whispered. “We’ve won, Marsh.”
That line gave me chills. We have to be like Vin at the end of book 2: We have to accept their deaths because their willingness to make that sacrifice is what we love about them. Sacrifice is a key theme to the whole series. Yes, they died. They died triumphant.
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2) Exactly how did Zane's cutting himself help to block Ruin's voice?
When in a blood frenzy the Koloss (or the inquisitors, for that matter) they become harder to control. At least, that's what makes sense to me. I think it relates to that.
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Well its my opinion that our dear author Brandon is tricking us. Afterall, if you've read any of the Alcatraz series, you know he is a liar. In any case, let me state my case for you.
- We learn of Allomantic savants as Spook has become one.
- Tin supposed increases ones senses.
- This is shown several ways one of which is Spook becoming even sensitive to touch and it becoming painful for him to do things.
- Spook thinks about how pewter and tin don't seem to be total opposites like many others are.
- When Spook burns pewter, it dulls his senses so that he doesn't feel pain anymore.
- Pewter is listed as increasing physical abilities.
As both metals are listed as increasing physical attributes, they don't seem opposite as they should be. While I do believe in this example those two are opposites, I believe Brandon is specifically tricking us by letting him define the definitions of what they do. What if I were to say that tin were increased physical input and pewter were increased physical output. That would certainly make the definitions sound much more opposite.
It is my opinion that WE need to define what the metals do on our own and build our own chart. Of course that won't stop me from getting a poster if it becomes available :D.
BTW, its my opinion that atium doesn't let someone see the future, it gives them understanding of the world around them. Remember, it shows the person the future but it also gives them the ability to interpret what they see. The four types of metal are Physical, Temporal, Mental and Enhancement. I think Atium is all of them. They talk about the person gaining grace to go along with it, mental capability to understand what they see, temporal of seeing the future, and the enhancement has me stumped but you get the idea. If gold 'shows you your own past and atium gives understanding of the world around you, then a mixture gives you understanding of the past around you. It might mix with only the base 8 metals(giving a nice 3x3 atium square vs the 4x4 allomantic square vs the other 3x3 Lerasium square, the 3x3 squares being atium or lerasium at the center with their mixtures of the base allomantic metals at the center) or maybe it mixes with all 16 for a whole new 4x4 square. Even more fun would be to mix Lerasium and Atium together, then again maybe it'll just make an Atium Misting.
Hoping to see what you guys can come up with for this and to see if BS will acknowledge that I'm on the right track. :)
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(snip)
What if I were to say that tin were increased physical input and pewter were increased physical output. That would certainly make the definitions sound much more opposite.
(snip)
BTW, its my opinion that atium doesn't let someone see the future, it gives them understanding of the world around them. Remember, it shows the person the future but it also gives them the ability to interpret what they see. The four types of metal are Physical, Temporal, Mental and Enhancement. I think Atium is all of them.
(snip)
That view of tin and pewter lines up nicely with FE calling them the internal physical pulling metal and the internal physical pushing metal.
Perhaps the 'nobody can read minds' rule and the 'atium is a freaky exceptional metal' thing are connected. With pure atium, you read someone's intentions. With malatium you read someone's past and/or self-image. Both could be regarded as limited mind-reading. Oh, except that Elend's atium+duralumin burst of insight seemed to contain things Marsh didn't yet know at all. Gah! There's always another secret way for a theory to fall apart.
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I posted this last night before I went to bed and kept thinking about it as I fell asleep.
So Tin increases physical input, pewter physical output. To take that to the next step, make them effect metals instead of humans. With Steel and Iron instead of physical input, there is metal input(if you don't stop it, it will end up inside of you but it can't get any closer than the center of you).
Then with Brass and Zinc, there is dampening of emotion vs flaring of emotion. Copper and Bronze essentially effect metals instead of humans, dampening the metals of yourself and those around you vs flaring it to the point of sensing it.
Gold and Electrum vs atium and malatium the problem was already noticed. But above and beyond that, it doesn't follow the same rules. Thats of course, like has been mentioned, atium and malatium do not belong on this chart at all. Gold and Electrum(I still think they need to be redefined) effect humans, that means the next step is to effect metals. Because of that I think the redefinition needs to be found before we can understand how that works.
Aluminum and Duralumin obviously effect metals, that means their counterpart must effect people. Aluminum dampens the effects of metal right out of existance, Duralumin flares it so its burned instantly. That means that their counterpart Chromium and Nicrosil would dampen people vs flaring them. To me, they would become weak, unable to think and unable to support themselves. Or essentially become pewter & tin burners at the same time.
I think another idea supporting this is hemalurgy. Check out the quick reference table in the back of the book(MB3). You quickly notice the pattern to it, every other one essentially effects humans vs every other one effecting powers. Because of that pattern, it becomes much easier to extrapolate things like Duralumin hemalurgy would steal human enhancement. Not quite sure how that would work but maybe its another situation that needs redefining.
I think Feruchemy needs redefining also though that one may be a little harder. With Atium, age seems wrong. Spend time as an old man, get to stay young longer? That would give decreasing returns as you did get older. But wasn't the Lord Ruler using Atium to supplement his age? It doesn't really make sense since Atium doesn't give you more age in Allomancy. You can see the future, but its more than time in a bottle. If instead I said that the definition of Atium Feruchemy was immortality, what might change? You could still store age but there would be limits to its use, like you couldn't turn yourself into a child or younger. Atium lets you be a part of a god for a mere moment so in turn channeling that timelessness into the Feruchemical storage allows on to stay timeless for long periods of time. My definition is also not 100% perfect but I'm trying to think outside the box. One could argue that Age is correct as you can put your own age in but that since Atium gives you essentially godhood and gods don't age, the process becomes infinitely more powerful when you intentionally age while burning Atium.
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I think Feruchemy needs redefining also though that one may be a little harder. With Atium, age seems wrong. Spend time as an old man, get to stay young longer? That would give decreasing returns as you did get older. But wasn't the Lord Ruler using Atium to supplement his age? It doesn't really make sense since Atium doesn't give you more age in Allomancy. You can see the future, but its more than time in a bottle. If instead I said that the definition of Atium Feruchemy was immortality, what might change? You could still store age but there would be limits to its use, like you couldn't turn yourself into a child or younger. Atium lets you be a part of a god for a mere moment so in turn channeling that timelessness into the Feruchemical storage allows on to stay timeless for long periods of time. My definition is also not 100% perfect but I'm trying to think outside the box. One could argue that Age is correct as you can put your own age in but that since Atium gives you essentially godhood and gods don't age, the process becomes infinitely more powerful when you intentionally age while burning Atium.
Either at the end of FE or some time in WoA, I'm not sure which, they explain that if you can do both feruchemy & allomancy you can store stuff in the metals, and then burn them for an increased gain, at the cost of the metals. I hope that makes sense, I'll go back and look it up when I get home tonight.
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Would someone with Achlorhydia have difficulties burning metals? That is, do stomach acids have anything to do with the equation or just the fact that the metals make it to the stomach?
Remeber the Atium burning obligator? He just wore his metal on the forehead. It seems that all you need to do in order to burn metals is to simply have it in contact with your physical self. Course that's usually inefficient since another can take it away from you.
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Would someone with Achlorhydia have difficulties burning metals? That is, do stomach acids have anything to do with the equation or just the fact that the metals make it to the stomach?
Remeber the Atium burning obligator? He just wore his metal on the forehead. It seems that all you need to do in order to burn metals is to simply have it in contact with your physical self. Course that's usually inefficient since another can take it away from you.
That was an extra bead for emergencies; Atium burns quickly.
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Would someone with Achlorhydia have difficulties burning metals? That is, do stomach acids have anything to do with the equation or just the fact that the metals make it to the stomach?
Remeber the Atium burning obligator? He just wore his metal on the forehead. It seems that all you need to do in order to burn metals is to simply have it in contact with your physical self. Course that's usually inefficient since another can take it away from you.
That was an extra bead for emergencies; Atium burns quickly.
It was also a symbol of his power, both as a Seer (that was a secret) and as a member of the previous legitimate government. He viewed himself as a servant of the Lord Ruler, and atium was the Lord Ruler's tool. It is like a crown.
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Would someone with Achlorhydia have difficulties burning metals? That is, do stomach acids have anything to do with the equation or just the fact that the metals make it to the stomach?
Remeber the Atium burning obligator? He just wore his metal on the forehead. It seems that all you need to do in order to burn metals is to simply have it in contact with your physical self. Course that's usually inefficient since another can take it away from you.
That was an extra bead for emergencies; Atium burns quickly.
Maybe, but remember when Marsh showed up he said something like we've only the seven beads that's in our cache. Not We've only seven cause I used 3 or 4 to protect myself against mistborn. I think he was the type that would beg forgivness by confessing his sins of wasting a metal desired by a servant of his god. So it's probably safe to say he wasn't buring metals inside his stomach.
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Ok, maybe my Ati aon theory is off, but Ado is definately an Aon. I forget what it means though, does anyone have Elantris handy?
What if the city of Elantris is in itself the body of a shard?
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Well there's Edo but no Ado... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elantris#Aons
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Well, I am a newbie and I know that I am going to get Flamed for this, I apparently am going against the flow here, but:
I HATE IT!! Well not really, but I do hate that the two best characters that I came to know over the last 3 books gets killed!
Come ON. Haven't they Sacrificed enough? Say three books worth?
Sure, I know that it is necessary to occasionally kill great characters to give a story a more realistic feel and to give it the atmosphere of a dangerous world and add to the suspense. But to kill the two MAIN characters right at the end for no reason other than to shock - does not ring my bell.
Sorry, but the "well I've talked to them and they are happy where they are and they need a rest" thing did not help me. If death is so good let's all go out and jump in front of a few trains, so we can all be happy and rest also.
I understand Kel (except that he did not even fight), Doc and Clubs dying, Those happened at normal places to (as I said before) give a story a more realistic feel and to give it the atmosphere of a dangerous world and add to the suspense plus for plot progression. But with Vin and El I just think that they could have been incapacitated in other ways to accomplish the same end. It's your book and your story though, but next time around I think that I'll wait until the whole set is out and then read the reviews first to see if they say something similar happens before I invest my time, and emotional well being.
Other than that, it was a SUPER book!
A few OTHER points:
1. Why if Vin had to be "Tuned" to Preservation" by the Well - did Kesler and Sazed (the real HoA) not have to be?
2. Why after Preservation "died" (after he visited Elend) and Vin had sent her erring into Marsh's head, then she went directly out to help Elend and the army kill Kloss (without the erring) did the Mists not do the massive surge into her at that time?
3. If Sazed was the HoA all along and he never had a spike in him, why did the Mists not go directly into him much earlier in books 1, 2 or 3? Why wait, he was available ALL that time and was in the mists many times, what kept them away?
4. Why would Atrim Mistings take extra time to heal from the mist attacks compared to other Mistings? I would have thought it would have been Mistborn that took longer. I think that it would have made the fight at the "Homeland" much more believable if they were all discovered to be Mistborn so that they could have had "Pewter" to give them strength and endurance as well as the Atium, because even with massive Atium they would have quickly become too exhausted to fight. If they were all Mistborn it would have made it much more realistic (to me).
5. Why did Sazed not “Heal” Marsh from the spikes? And the Kanda/Kloss back to Humans? Did he heal all the Terris eunuchs and the injured soldiers? What about all the people in all the villages that were not near a cavern?
6. Back in WoA the OreSeur / TenSon swap had too many clues for me - Actually I guessed that one immediately and then it had about 5 more clues that kept pounding away at it.
Other than that - It was truly a SUPER trilogy and I really hope you do another based 20 – 100 years out. I really think that there is a lot more to explore in this world BEFORE you do the modern one. Especially, with the Terris (Feruchemists) breeding with Allomancers.
I was really surprised that you did not have a few (very skilled) Coinshots doing the flying thing. They would have to be much more skilled than the average Mistborn to keep from landing too hard but as long as they had coins/bits of metal they should be able to do it.
I can’t say enough praise for how you invented the four related magic systems and linked the magic and story all together excellently!!
BUT YOU KILLED THEM!!! I can’t get over that!!! I have therapy scheduled every day for the next year – I’ll send you the bill. ;)
I miss Elend and Vin too, I really wanted them to have kids who were extra powerful, thereby making powerful Mistborn more common for a while. Since there is now a base of Allomacy in the genes of a significant portion of the population, I had hoped that it would remain strong in the Vin/Elend decedent line for many generations. I hate that this magic system is effectively fading away. That sucks!
I also hated that Straff Venture was killed. He was my favorite bad guy. Reminds me of a boyfriend I once had. I did love the way Vin killed him though!
I'm curious about your 1,2 &3. Does anyone have a reason why Vin did not get all the mist sucked into her when she fought the Koloss at Fadrex City. The Preservation mist Spirit was already dead by then. I missed that when I read it but now I wonder why it happened.
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I swear it says that she did pick up the earring and put it back in her ear before she went out. Can someone check that?
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Okay, but if Terr could foresee everything that would happen. doesn't that mean he knew that the world would undergo a thousand years of struggle and nearly crumble and end just to return to the way it was when created? Did he really not like Ruin that much? Or is there a something bigger in play? How far did he see? Did he realize that the world would need the powers of them both combined and knew that Ruin wouldn't provide his half. What is going to happen that would make it necessary for their to be a single god?
Once mankind was created, Preservation was weaker than Ruin. Ruin wanted to completely destroy the world eventually, and Preservation would, in normal circumstance, be unable to stop him. Preservation's desperate plan and great sacrifice were done not out of hate for Ruin, but to save the world. However close the world may have come to ending and however unlikely the final victory might have been, it was better than the absolute certainty that Ruin would destroy everything if Preservation did not enact his desperate plan.
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I swear it says that she did pick up the earring and put it back in her ear before she went out. Can someone check that?
No, It says that later when she & Elend return to the city that she had found the erring and had to get it straightened by a jeweler so that she could use it again. It had gotten really mangled up on the trip through Marshes brain.
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I swear it says that she did pick up the earring and put it back in her ear before she went out. Can someone check that?
No, It says that later when she & Elend return to the city that she had found the erring and had to get it straightened by a jeweler so that she could use it again. It had gotten really mangled up on the trip through Marshes brain.
i thought it said that Yoman handed it to her...
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Hrmm, perhapse it was because she was inside and it was daylight when she had it out? That's my best guess.
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A quick question I just remembered. This was probably explained in the book but I'll say them anyway...
1. Why was Vin slightly more powerful than other mistborn? Even Kelsier comments on the disparity between strength and weight.
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Hrmm, perhapse it was because she was inside and it was daylight when she had it out? That's my best guess.
I don't think so. She had to draw on the mist to fight Marsh off after he healed from the erring. She hit him with a mist based soothing that made him run away. So the mist was out at the time. Then she went directly out to help the army - she did not waste any time looking for the erring - at least it did not mention it in her POV and it would not have made any sense. "Sorry guys - I know you are getting killed by Koloss but I simply MUST find my erring first!"
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A quick question I just remembered. This was probably explained in the book but I'll say them anyway...
1. Why was Vin slightly more powerful than other mistborn? Even Kelsier comments on the disparity between strength and weight.
It was because her father was an exceptionally purebred noble, it's explained at the end of FE by some of the inquisitors when they oust her father in front of the Lord Ruler.
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Hrmm, perhapse it was because she was inside and it was daylight when she had it out? That's my best guess.
I don't think so. She had to draw on the mist to fight Marsh off after he healed from the erring. She hit him with a mist based soothing that made him run away. So the mist was out at the time. Then she went directly out to help the army - she did not waste any time looking for the erring - at least it did not mention it in her POV and it would not have made any sense. "Sorry guys - I know you are getting killed by Koloss but I simply MUST find my erring first!"
I think it's because Kelsier already had the power. He kind of gives it to her when she's about to die later, but he's already seized control of it when Vin does that. And if Preservation could see into the future, it's possible Kelsier could. At least enough to see that she needs to take out all those inquisitors.
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A quick question I just remembered. This was probably explained in the book but I'll say them anyway...
1. Why was Vin slightly more powerful than other mistborn? Even Kelsier comments on the disparity between strength and weight.
It was because her father was an exceptionally purebred noble, it's explained at the end of FE by some of the inquisitors when they oust her father in front of the Lord Ruler.
Oh thats right, I feel like an idiot. Now that I remember I think we on the boards discussed that too a while back.... :-\
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Hrmm, perhapse it was because she was inside and it was daylight when she had it out? That's my best guess.
I don't think so. She had to draw on the mist to fight Marsh off after he healed from the erring. She hit him with a mist based soothing that made him run away. So the mist was out at the time. Then she went directly out to help the army - she did not waste any time looking for the erring - at least it did not mention it in her POV and it would not have made any sense. "Sorry guys - I know you are getting killed by Koloss but I simply MUST find my erring first!"
I think it's because Kelsier already had the power. He kind of gives it to her when she's about to die later, but he's already seized control of it when Vin does that. And if Preservation could see into the future, it's possible Kelsier could. At least enough to see that she needs to take out all those inquisitors.
That does not make sense to me. If he gives it to her - it should have done the massive swirl thing and all the mists should have gone into her like when she fought the 13 Inquisitors. Preservation was already dead and she was "available" since she did not have the erring and she was in the mists fighting the Kloss.
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Hrmm, perhapse it was because she was inside and it was daylight when she had it out? That's my best guess.
I don't think so. She had to draw on the mist to fight Marsh off after he healed from the erring. She hit him with a mist based soothing that made him run away. So the mist was out at the time. Then she went directly out to help the army - she did not waste any time looking for the erring - at least it did not mention it in her POV and it would not have made any sense. "Sorry guys - I know you are getting killed by Koloss but I simply MUST find my erring first!"
I think it's because Kelsier already had the power. He kind of gives it to her when she's about to die later, but he's already seized control of it when Vin does that. And if Preservation could see into the future, it's possible Kelsier could. At least enough to see that she needs to take out all those inquisitors.
That does not make sense to me. If he gives it to her - it should have done the massive swirl thing and all the mists should have gone into her like when she fought the 13 Inquisitors. Preservation was already dead and she was "available" since she did not have the erring and she was in the mists fighting the Koloss.
I think that it was more that she had to actually pull the power in, not that it would just magically flow into her without the earring in she had to be actively pulling on the power. So when she was fighting the inquisitors she constantly needed the power, over a long period of time & so had to keep drawing it in until her body could no longer handle the power & was transformed. The earring prevented it other times, or at least that's the way it came off to me.
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I think that it was more that she had to actually pull the power in, not that it would just magically flow into her without the earring in she had to be actively pulling on the power. So when she was fighting the inquisitors she constantly needed the power, over a long period of time & so had to keep drawing it in until her body could no longer handle the power & was transformed. The earring prevented it other times, or at least that's the way it came off to me.
That is what I am saying. She did actively "Draw" the mists in so she could do the Marsh Mind blast.
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That is what I am saying. She did actively "Draw" the mists in so she could do the Marsh Mind blast.
Right but afterward she didn't have anything to keep her drawing on the power because Marsh was gone. You got to realize that she didn't know exactly what she was doing, and I think she only got to the power because she was desperate.
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I think it's been confirmed here that atium and malatium violating the rule about which of each base/alloy pair is pushing and which is pulling is a hint that atium doesn't really belong in the list of allomantic metals. However, zinc and brass also violate the rule. For every known metal other than zinc, brass, atium, and malatium, the base metal is the pulling metal and the alloy is the pushing metal. Zinc is a base metal and is the external mental pushing metal, however, and its alloy brass is the pulling metal of the pair. Is this a mistake?
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For every known metal other than zinc, brass, atium, and malatium, the base metal is the pulling metal and the alloy is the pushing metal. Zinc is a base metal and is the external mental pushing metal, however, and its alloy brass is the pulling metal of the pair. Is this a mistake?
Zinc and brass keep getting confused. Zinc is the pulling metal and riots emotions. Brass is the pushing metal and soothes emotions. Anywhere you see them act some other way is a mistake.
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The source of my information about zinc and brass is the table in the back of Final Empire. That table does list zinc as rioting and brass as soothing, but it has zinc as the pushing metal and brass as pulling.
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Right but afterward she didn't have anything to keep her drawing on the power because Marsh was gone. You got to realize that she didn't know exactly what she was doing, and I think she only got to the power because she was desperate.
I think that I found something that might shed some light on the issue. The the pre-chapter 79 little blurb page 524:
"I believe the mists were searching for someone to become a new host for them. The power needed a consciousness to direct them.
snip
Marsh ripped it out, freeing her and allowing the mists---which were now desperate for a host, since Preservation's last wisp was gone--- to finally pour themselves into her."
The Key phrase there is "allowing the mists.......to finally pour themselves into her". So at Fardex City when she fought the Koloss these same conditions existed. It was not contingent on Vin drawing the mists in (which she did to fight Marsh) but them - the mists - that poured themselves into her as soon as they were free to do so.
Another question.
The vials that Vin stole from Marsh contained Duralumin? How/why would that be? I know that Ruin would have learned of it from TenSoon/Zane but he would have to get a spike from an Duralumin Misting or a Mistborn. A Misting would be impossible to find wouldn't it? Did Ruin waste a Mistborn on Marsh to give him this ability? It does not make sense to me that Ruin would do that. Much more value to make another Inquisitor from the Mistborn and have him able to burn Duralumin. After all Marsh already had so much extra Feruchemist spikes that the Duralumin would only be a tiny benefit.
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Right but afterward she didn't have anything to keep her drawing on the power because Marsh was gone. You got to realize that she didn't know exactly what she was doing, and I think she only got to the power because she was desperate.
I think that I found something that might shed some light on the issue. The the pre-chapter 79 little blurb page 524:
"I believe the mists were searching for someone to become a new host for them. The power needed a consciousness to direct them.
snip
Marsh ripped it out, freeing her and allowing the mists---which were now desperate for a host, since Preservation's last wisp was gone--- to finally pour themselves into her."
The Key phrase there is "allowing the mists.......to finally pour themselves into her". So at Fardex City when she fought the Koloss these same conditions existed. It was not contingent on Vin drawing the mists in (which she did to fight Marsh) but them - the mists - that poured themselves into her as soon as they were free to do so.
Another question.
The vials that Vin stole from Marsh contained Duralumin? How/why would that be? I know that Ruin would have learned of it from TenSoon/Zane but he would have to get a spike from an Duralumin Misting or a Mistborn. A Misting would be impossible to find wouldn't it? Did Ruin waste a Mistborn on Marsh to give him this ability? It does not make sense to me that Ruin would do that. Much more value to make another Inquisitor from the Mistborn and have him able to burn Duralumin. After all Marsh already had so much extra Feruchemist spikes that the Duralumin would only be a tiny benefit.
On your last question about Marsh having Duralumin, Yes ruin did waste a mistborn to give Marsh the ability. If you review Sazed's epigram on page 484, you will see that Marsh was a special case
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Question about the Symbols for the Metals.
Each metal has a symbol consiting of one or more crescent moon shapes along with one or more spikes piercing the crescent moon shapes. Do the placement of the spikes in the symbols have anything to do with the Hemalurgical placement of a spike in a human body. Sort of like a hemalurgical guide to acupuncture. :) Place one spike here for alomantic powers and one spike here for foot fungus.
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I have one question, and it NEEDS to be answered. When did they discover the game of cricket?
Page 192 "Plus. you've managed --in our short three years together-- to kill not only my god, but my father, my brother, and my fiancee. That's kind of like a homicidal hat trick" (Bolding is mine)
The term hat trick was invented for cricket, and adapted to other sports (notably hockey), first used in the 1880s. That one line took me out-of-world for a good five minutes.
Also, Elend can't count, because hat trick is 3, and she killed 4.
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I just finished the series and hopped on to read through this thread when I should be sleeping. :) Now I'm registering and posting when I should be sleeping...
Overall, I think your books are fantastic, Brandon. I have been amazed at how consistent and thought-out your worlds are. You do an amazing job of dropping hints without being too obvious (When I figure out your secrets on my own, it's usually only pages or paragraphs before having them explicitly revealed -- which feels like just the right distance since I get to feel accomplished but the story isn't). I also really like how your characters make rather-specific plans, begin carrying out those plans, and react realistically when they go (believably) awry.
Minor criticisms: I couldn't take Sazed's final lines about the Hero being of neither gender seriously. He may be insecure about his masculinity, but he's referred to as he, falls in love with a woman, and (presumably) has the same genetic makeup as other males. He is male. Losing genitalia doesn't change gender and I just didn't buy that the prophecy authors would be gender-neutral to refer to a eunuch. Anyway, personal problem...
I also felt like you hedged your bets a bin on Vin and Elend dying. I realize it's your work with your cosmology, but nothing takes the impact out of death like finding out they aren't really really dead and could possibly come back in the future. Death is meaningful because it's permanent. I don't think it's cliched to either kill your heroes or to not kill them. Both have their pros and cons; half-killing them seems like it will leave many people dissatisfied.
......wooooooooooooooah......
I still can't stop thinking that in my head. It's all that's really coming to mind at the moment.
I made the stupid mistake of finishing the book this afternoon in a public place. Therefore I looked like a complete moron as I burst into tears when Elend died. I think it was a good ending. I'm still not totally decided on that. I'm just in shock.
It's just so amazing how the books progressed, developing into this huge cosmic epic that I never expected from just reading The Final Empire a year ago. I guess in some sense what I'm feeling is a slight sense of... awe, maybe? I want to know how he comes up with stuff. I mean seriously, talk about not just writing another fantasy series.
But I'm also shocked that no one else seemed to have figured out that Sazed was the Hero of Ages. I thought it might be him when I started the book, but it could as easily have been Vin or Elend. But at about a third of the way through, page 215 to be exact, there was this line from Sazed thinking in his head:
"I am, unforunately, in charge."
Sound familiar?
"I am, unfortunately, the Hero of Ages."
No one else would have used the same wording as Sazed did when he was thinking to himself. I have to assume that was intentional on Brandon's part. It was very subtle... I'm actually surprised I noticed.
I'm gratified that you noticed. The Terris dialect IS very subtle. That speech pattern is one hint, the other is the use of "I think" to soften phrases at the ending. Beyond that, Sazed speaks with compound, complex sentences using frequent hedging to indicate that he's often uncertain. (That's another Terris speech pattern, not wanting to offend with language.)
The epigraphs in this book particularly (though I did it for Kwaan too) are intended to "sound" Terris, and like Sazed in particular. I didn't think anyone would catch it. You made my day!
My wife and I definitely noticed. That was the first thing I noticed about the book (obviously, since it's the first line. :)). I really enjoyed the pre-chapter blurbs in 1 and 2, so it was on my mind as I opened to book. My entire thought process was:
"This person doesn't sound like Vin. She wouldn't say fortunately or unfortunately. She's more fatalisted. To her, what is... is and you deal with it; there is no fortunately or unfortunately. Maybe it's Elend...? I know these blurbs are part of a huge curveball like they were in 1 and 2."
By the time the narrator used the word "Elend" instead of "I", I was pretty sure it had to be Sazed. And, as Pygmalion, pointed out, bells went off in my head when I read "I am, unforunately, in charge." I started to doubt myself when Vin became a god but I just couldn't hear her voice in those paragraphs. Vin is simply too blunt for that scholar's prose. I'm glad I stuck to my guns. :)
Anyway, I have several questions I was hoping you could answer:
1) I haven't yet seen this asked / answered: If Rashek was simply an Allomancer / Feruchemist, how did he survive beheading? In The Final Empire, doesn't Ham or Breeze mention he was beheaded in the early years and that it didn't even phase him? Nobody else seems to survive that, regardless of their powers. I was hoping to see something about that in the later books...
2) This is related directly to The Final Empire, but was there a reason you chose not have the characters understand the horseshoe trick until the very end? I never quite believed that Mistborn had never figured out that they could simply Pull their coins back to them after jumping off them. It was one of the first things that occurred to me and I'll never have that kind of power... As a reader, I actually felt a bit insulted when Vin had that "revelation."
Thanks for the great stories and being so involved in this site. It's a real treat to get your answers / insight outside of the books!
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1) I haven't yet seen this asked / answered: If Rashek was simply an Allomancer / Feruchemist, how did he survive beheading? In The Final Empire, doesn't Ham or Breeze mention he was beheaded in the early years and that it didn't even phase him? Nobody else seems to survive that, regardless of their powers. I was hoping to see something about that in the later books...
This has been asked before, and I believe the answer was that those stories were fabricated to make him appear invincible. TLR was pretty insane by the time Vin came along, so it is not surprising that he began to believe his own rhetoric.
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I have one question, and it NEEDS to be answered. When did they discover the game of cricket?
Page 192 "Plus. you've managed --in our short three years together-- to kill not only my god, but my father, my brother, and my fiancee. That's kind of like a homicidal hat trick" (Bolding is mine)
The term hat trick was invented for cricket, and adapted to other sports (notably hockey), first used in the 1880s. That one line took me out-of-world for a good five minutes.
Also, Elend can't count, because hat trick is 3, and she killed 4.
I'm not sure where you are, but where I live Hat trick is just kind of become a cliche to mean something along the lines of amazing feat. I didn't even know it had to do with either sport until you said something.
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As for Vin's horseshoe trick, I think it's less a matter of "no one else thought of it" as opposed to "no one else could DO it." Vin, remember, had amazing and incredible precision with her steel-pushes and pulls. (Part of this would likely have come from the fact that she grew up as a thief. Remember, other Mistborn came from noble families and had no need to develop the subtler skills in their youth. And a large part of it would also be because Vin is, well... Vin!) As for the horseshoe trick, Elend was able to do it, but mainly because he was taught specifically by Vin, who had mastered it, and even then, he still had trouble, I believe.
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This has been bugging me so I have to ask: Did you base the bodies of Ruin and Preservation off of someone you know or was it simply someone who had taken the power before?
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1) I haven't yet seen this asked / answered: If Rashek was simply an Allomancer / Feruchemist, how did he survive beheading? In The Final Empire, doesn't Ham or Breeze mention he was beheaded in the early years and that it didn't even phase him? Nobody else seems to survive that, regardless of their powers. I was hoping to see something about that in the later books...
This has been asked before, and I believe the answer was that those stories were fabricated to make him appear invincible. TLR was pretty insane by the time Vin came along, so it is not surprising that he began to believe his own rhetoric.
I asked Brandon this question at the "Teraport Wars" signing at the Dragon's Keep a few weeks ago. He said that Rashek was only partially beheaded, and had kicked in his Feruchemist healing powers previously. Thus, he was able to heal himself. This happened in the early years of the Lord Ruler's reign, so the story had been changed by the time of the first book.
The same thing happened with the story of the Lord Ruler emerging from the flames as a skeleton. Rashek wasn't actually down to just his skeleton (although he may have looked like it). He had his healing powers going as he walked through the flames. Again, the story had grown and changed to "legendary" by the time of the first book.
Brandon added that if anyone had managed to fully behead Rashek, that would have been the end of him.
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I have one question, and it NEEDS to be answered. When did they discover the game of cricket?
Page 192 "Plus. you've managed --in our short three years together-- to kill not only my god, but my father, my brother, and my fiancee. That's kind of like a homicidal hat trick" (Bolding is mine)
The term hat trick was invented for cricket, and adapted to other sports (notably hockey), first used in the 1880s. That one line took me out-of-world for a good five minutes.
Also, Elend can't count, because hat trick is 3, and she killed 4.
The characters don't speak English, so what we read is a translation into our language. Elend in his native language actually used an in-world equivalent metaphor, possibly one which involved a set of four rather than three.
I do think it's a good idea to pay attention to anachronism when using metaphors and idoms, but that's also something that can be taken too far—for example, trying not to use any words with latinate roots because there was never a former empire of that type in the universe you're writing in. That would probably be impossible because English is what English is, and the book is written in English.
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I'd just assumed that it was a hat trick of 3, with half-brother Zane and sort-of-fiancee Shan only counting for 0.5 each.
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Brandon,
It's good to have you back, haunting the boards. Here's what I've been wanting to post for so long but couldn't until the book came out!
Reading the final installment of Mistborn was an undeniable pleasure--a literary indulgence of the highest order. The storyline has hairpin turns and secrets aplenty. The characters overall display mesmerizing depth, development, and conflict. The world itself continues to evoke a powerful set of emotions, creating an eerie, magical aura that we can’t ever forget--nor would we wish to. The magic systems--now more than ever--outshine so many other magic systems because Allomancy, Hemalurgy, and Feruchemy relate to each other in a typically fascinating and logical way, possessing an astounding level of complexity and uniqueness.
Spook’s elevation to a major player is something I hadn’t quite expected but welcomed all the same. I enjoyed watching Spook come into his own as a leader and a man who deserves to be part of the crew. I didn’t find it hard to feel swept into his inner and outer conflict, rooting for him as an underdog worthy of achieving greatness. Another smart twist was Ruin’s masquerade as Kelsier for Spook--not to mention Reen for Vin. If the only thing we have to fear is fear itself, then Ruin embodies fear itself.
Marsh lives the nightmare. He is not his own, though he is, ironically, the means by which Vin is ultimately saved. Though tainted, Marsh recaptures enough of his will to remove the taint from her. His storyline evokes so many competing reactions, adding layers to him and the narrative that are masterfully chilling and uplifting at the same time. A uniquely memorable character.
TenSoon, for he’s a jolly good kandra, for he’s a jolly good…. Well, you see where I’m going with that. I loved learning more about him and his people. His courage is so amazing. It is easy to warm to this being, even though he did away with OreSeur. The revelations about the First Contract and the First Generation were masterful, if not completely unexpected. The truth about atium is an ingenious and intriguing one--to have the power of a god burning within oneself is quite the concept. The foreshadowing of this truth is quite satisfactory, too. Elend serves Ruin a deserved comeuppance that is deliciously funny although I saw it coming. Huzzah!
“Breezy” is as pompously hilarious as always, and Ham is as Thuggish and loyal as ever. It’s kind of bittersweet that only Breeze, Ham, Spook, and well, Sazed, survive. But where much is given, much is required, huh?
A good assassin, indeed. Rest well, Vin, for you have undoubtedly earned it. Elend fought the good fight, and it was fitting that the end of his fight prompted Vin to forcibly re-merge the powers of Ruin and Preservation, clearing the way for the self-doubting, humble Sazed to become the Hero of Ages.
Speaking of which, Sazed’s transformation from a once-disillusioned, “barren” Keeper into the very power he’s always appealed to--the potent, life-preserving God or Hero of Ages--is beautifully touching. Also of note is the poetically clever, entirely believable (and just plain cool) means by which Sazed heals a dying world and then rewards, as best he can, those who would not go gently into that good night. (Yeah, the book even got me crying a few times.)
Packed with humor, horror, action, tension, friendship, love, and revelations, this novel does overall justice to the ones preceding it and weaves a magical story to be proud of. Which isn't to say that I don't need MORE. I've been excited to read your responses to various questions. Marsh isn't dead?? Awesome. A follow-up triology might be in the works? Even better.
Thanks for creating such a great series.
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Hi Brandon
I'm terribly disappointed I didn't know about Mistborn before Worldcon, or I would have gotten to meet you. Mistborn is fantastic, I burst into tears in the lunch room at work then I finished HOA today. (I had someone get it from another town for me since there are STILL no copies in my city).
Here is my question:
Sazed mentions that Preservation got Vin to mostly stop wearing her earing before she met Kelsier, but she then kept it in because he suggested it. Was this influenced by Ruin, or did Kell really just think it was a good idea?
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First time poster,
I've been wondering something from the First book that I've been looking at over and over in my head.
In the First book, Misborn, Vin takes a piece of pewter from Sazed (Mistborn page 407 HC page 489 $4.99 SC rebate edition) she notices the shadow of Sazed's Power stored in the Metal, can all Mistborn do this or is this because Vin also has Feruchemical abilities that lie undiscovered?
On a note that was made in earlier pages (though I didn't read all the way through so this might have been stated already) Kelsier Spoke to Spook twice in Hero of Ages first when he was in the burning building (CH 19 pg, 141) when he told spook to "Get up!", it could have been a reinforcment of Ruin however Ruin was already enforcing himself in a visual aspect to Spook so this seems unlikely. The First "Get up!" was Ruin however the second Command was italizied implying it was in spooks mind purely as Kelsier spoke to him the second time. The second notable quote is when Kelsier also said to Spook, "I named you, Spook. You were my friend. Isn't that enough" (Ch 58, Pg. 408)
I must say I enjoyed the books quite a bit, and you left a lot of questions on where the books could lead. One Corolation I like that you brought into this world like Elantris is that there is no ONE way to access the powers of the divine, which has me wondering that there might be a way to directly use Allomancy without the Metals, that possibly with Profiency (maybe servant of the metals and recovering allow for use) you could learn to directly tap the power of the Divine in the way you were with say Tin or Pewter?
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I have one question, and it NEEDS to be answered. When did they discover the game of cricket?
Page 192 "Plus. you've managed --in our short three years together-- to kill not only my god, but my father, my brother, and my fiancee. That's kind of like a homicidal hat trick" (Bolding is mine)
The term hat trick was invented for cricket, and adapted to other sports (notably hockey), first used in the 1880s. That one line took me out-of-world for a good five minutes.
Also, Elend can't count, because hat trick is 3, and she killed 4.
The characters don't speak English, so what we read is a translation into our language. Elend in his native language actually used an in-world equivalent metaphor, possibly one which involved a set of four rather than three.
I do think it's a good idea to pay attention to anachronism when using metaphors and idoms, but that's also something that can be taken too far—for example, trying not to use any words with latinate roots because there was never a former empire of that type in the universe you're writing in. That would probably be impossible because English is what English is, and the book is written in English.
Yeah, I'm familiar with the old "they aren't speaking English so the author is translating" idea, and of course you don't want to take it too far. Ignoring Latin roots is definitely not a good idea, but it was just such a blatant anachronism (to me, a sports fan) when the books don't mention any type of sport at all. If they had even in passing mentioned some sort of popular game where people score some sort of goal, I might have been able to go by it, but to me it was just as out of character as referencing a movie or real-world popular song.
Now, this is my largest criticism in the whole book, mind you, so obviously it isn't a major issue. Just something that distracted and somewhat bothered me.
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It could have been a sport that hadn't been played in the last 1000 years, but the idiom remained. Language does funny things like that.
But it's good to avoid things that will take the reader out of the book.
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It could have been a sport that hadn't been played in the last 1000 years, but the idiom remained. Language does funny things like that.
But it's good to avoid things that will take the reader out of the book.
yes baggage is never good. Only mention what is necessary. Oh and repeat whats important.
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I think Brandon just couldn't resist the way the alliteration in "homicidal hat trick" rolls off the tongue.
I always took "hat trick" to be a reference to stage magicians pulling rabbits and such out of their hats.
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alright, i've only taken the time to read the first 10 of this thread so far, but i decided i would share what i've learned and take the punishment if i happen to repeat stuff.
first off i'm going to gloat. as far as i know i was the first one on this forum to suggest that Vin's earring was a hemalurgic spike. http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5697.0 there is my evidence.
second i have to say that Hero of Ages was completely awesome. it was incredibly complex and fulfilling, and even though i saw some elements coming there were still enough moments of sheer awesomeness that i'm still very happy about it.
third. this last wednesday i was able to attend the signing in huntington beach and was able to gather some interesting pieces of information from brandon. he revealed that the names of Preservation and Ruin were Ati and Leras and hinted that they were once just people who came to hold and were transformed by the respective powers. From their names we get the names of the two godly metals: ATIum and LERASium (the metal elend ate).
He also at one point made a comment something like "i've had many people tell me that i need to write a sequel to elantris, and then i hear this voice in my head saying 'maybe i already have...'" i'll let u speculate on that, cuz i really don't know what that means.
I got a chance to talk a little about Hoid with him as well, and we started talking about all the places he shows up, and then i said "yeah, but then he died in the beginning of Liar of Partinel" to which he replied "well at least someone they called Hoid died..." from that i kinda thought that maybe Hoid is a title rather than an actual name and that there are many Hoid's spread out across the cosmos performing some incredible duty...
he also mention the future book The Silence Divine and gave us a short explanation. Apparently in this story the magic system is based on diseases. what that means is that when you get sick the virus also imparts a special power, having evolved to do this in order to stay alive. the example brandon gave was that u catch a cold and then have the ability to fly for that time. the books working title comes from the highest class in this society in which a disease has made its people go deaf, but grants them some great power. i think this a very interesting concept as you could randomly gain and lose powers at anytime and in order to gain a power your body is weekend and your life essentially put at risk.
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Woah, that's so cool to hear about!!! There was a writing prompt a while ago that had to do with a magic system where people go deaf. It's so cool to hear the way he might take it.
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The Silence Divine sounds cool :D
Also, I pieced it together from Brandon's posts in this thread the Ati and Leras thing, but that was around page 10, I believe. But that earring Hemalurgy thing, yes, we shall gladly concede the point to you for coming up with it first :D
He also at one point made a comment something like "i've had many people tell me that i need to write a sequel to elantris, and then i hear this voice in my head saying 'maybe i already have...'"
Maybe that means one of his books is like a spiritual successor to Elantris, or something.
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Hey got a quick question, and I am not sure the relevance, but atium let's one see the possible futures, correct? Wouldn't that be the same as see the complete future? If only for a brief time frame, but when El burned it with duralumin in the end-game against Marsh, he must have seen even further, of course he would have seen his death, then Vin's sacrifice, possibly Sazed's ascension, and maybe even the completion of the new world. That's probably why he said "It's up to you now, Vin. I've done what I can"...pg.546,HoA.
I was thinking that Ati or Atium sounded a little like Atum...which is the Eygptian god known as the complete one, or the creator...the underlying force behind life, and at the end of the creative cycle, his body turns in to...get this....watery chaos...sound familar?
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Brandon savors stretching the concept of fantasy--he is a rebel, refusing to take up what other authors have subconsciously considered a standard in fantasy....Im talking about his magic systems.
Anyway, The Silence Divine. Seriously, i could just die with speculation's and wonder. Really, im glad to have Sanderson, he brings adventure and wonder to a world that i thought was completely figured out. Maybe we haven't reached a climax in creative literature--there is hope for us yet.
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I LOVED the book. I actually really liked the ending because of the values it represented of selfless sacrifice. That being said I have one question about the Announcer. How can the Announcer be something ruin made up if the Kandra(who knew the original prophecies) believed Sazed was the Announcer?
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The Kandra knew what the prophecies were at the time of Alendi and Rashek, not the original prophecy.
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remember nonrevlb that the Kandra are the decendants of Ferchemicalists...that means the originals were Rasheks original crew...Yes they did know the Prophecies...that had already been corrupted by Ruin to get Alendi to release him rather than use the power for the good of his people.
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I just finished Hero of Ages and I loved the book, and loved the Trilogy! Brandon's plot twists and surprise endings are fantastic, better than any author I've read (and I'm so glad he was chosen to finish AMOL).
I would love to see this trilogy as a set of movies, and think they would translate well to the screen, because movies with unexpected, climactic endings I think do well and are reviewed well. The only downside would be that movies with strong religious themes will apt to be controversial.
In the ending of HOA, though, I would have liked better closure. Though it was great to see all the loose ends tied, Sazed take over for Preservation/Ruin and finally remake the world, I disliked seeing Vin and Elend die ( how old was Vin? 20?) never having experienced the world they sacrificed to build, not even leaving children or any part of themselves to see those flowers they so hoped for. The ending was very moving, but I needed at least a funeral where words were shared to honor and announce Vin's sacrifice (which no one would know except Sazed) or maybe a scene when Sazed says farewell to Elend and Vin in the afterlife, as he apparently did contact them in some way (per the letter to Spook). The funeral and afterlife scenes in Harry Potter Deathly Hallows/ Half blood prince worked well to bring closure, even if their endings were not nearly as interesting, complete or satisfying.
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Brandon, you have created an excellent work. I first discovered your work after finding out you were to be the author of AMoL, and I must say I am happy to have done so.
1) I think I may not be alone in this, but I would enjoy being able to see the full text versions of the epigraphs, most of which appear to be excerpts of larger works.
2) I am an engineer and therefore I enjoy the whole world-building story. I would enjoy reading a tale set in the years following the end of the world. It will no doubt be less epic in scale, however there are many issues which can arise in a budding nation with little to no infrastructure that suddenly finds itself surrounded by strange plants and animals and a changed geography. I love books like Swiss Family Robinson, and could see incredible potential for some nation/world-building tales in this situation.
3) I am happy that Spook was able to grow into his own, however I felt that he grew too fast. His growth seemed to happen on a very short time scale, so I would like to have seen it start more clearly in WoA, but I am happy that he did grow into his own.
Again, a wonderful job. I look forward to reading many more works of yours in the future. Keep writing and I will keep reading with great enthusiasm.
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Wonderful ...
It's been a week now that I've finished reading Mistborn, and I didn't write earlier because I thought I had to read all that was written in this thread ... and it took me some time. I also had the opportunity to read Elantris (I ordered it along with Mistborn 3) and I really enjoyed it.
In this topic, many are talking on how they don't really like the ending. When I read it, I was quite disappointed and I felt really sad, but I continued. The sadness came from the death of Elend and Vin who I think deserved to live, but also on the “death” of all the kandra. During the book, I strongly came to be attached to those creatures. I think even if it may not be as we want, it's still the correct ending and all happened as it should have been. Eventually, everything comes to an end, and realising that ... I don't know ... This makes my mind blank and peaceful.
Throughout the series I was often disappointing with the behaviour of Vin or Elend, or how things turned out to be. Especially, I really would have liked to see how it would turn to be if people had met instead of not finding themselves or had talked instead of keeping secrets from each other. I really would have liked TenSoon to meet with Vin a last time. And why the hell Vin did not came to see Elend back in the first book right after she saved him despite of his betrayal? Why didn't she tell her about the truth of who she was?
But I guess this is not always possible. Often I would have like to see the story happening in a perfect world where everybody were perfect. But then, there would be no story to tell, isn't it?
For me, the best books of the series were the first and the last. Possibly because of the ball scenes (for the first) ... The Well of Ascension was difficult for me since I couldn't bear how silly both Vin and Elend were, always thinking they were not worth the love of the other. And political scheling of Elend in Luthadel wasn't really interesting for me.
That was really a great story, congratulations.
Questions
Now, there is something I don't understand well in the Hero of Ages. It's about the 16% who fall sick in the mists. Those were all allomancers who hadn't snapped yet. But then:
- Why the nobility isn't affected by the mist sickness? Is it because they were often beaten to make sure they snapped, so there was no one to snap in the mists?
- Most important, why exactly 16.000% fell sick? I guess that allomancers are determined at birth, right? So in a group, there would be statistically about 16% of allomancers. I don't see how it could be more precise than that. Or was it that Preservation, in order to give away clues, choose exactly 16.000% of the population not exposed, leaving out few allomancers, or making sick some who weren't?
That last question really troubled me.
Really, thanks so much for you books. I always find it difficult to start a book (I'd like to know the content before reading it). I read your books because of the Wheel of Time and I wasn't deceived. I'm so glad that you are continuing the work of Robert Jordan, so I could discover you.
Mildred — somewhere lost in France
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Well, I just thought I'd tell everyone something that I find very impressive. I was just talking to my Grandma who has my copy of HoAs, and she said she wasn't sure who was doing the blurbs in HoA, but she thought it was Sazed because he did the first two. When I asked her why she thought that she said it was because he was the story teller. So, my grandma (only on chapter 10) totally beat all of us because she's known forever.
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I was rereading the book, and I found the whole #16 thing interesting...Apparently Preservation uses a base 10 system...16% and all...
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I was rereading the book, and I found the whole #16 thing interesting...Apparently Preservation uses a base 10 system...16% and all...
Could be base 2/4/8/16, and still make sense....
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There was a lot of discussion going on (especially on pages 6 and 7) about the connections between Elantris and Mistborn. And I think that's really interesting. So here's my two cents, whether you want 'em or not:
Far be it from me to claim that either Elantris or Mistborn is formulaic, let alone built from the same formula, but there are some definite patterns in the religious and magical systems in the books. For instance, the Jindoeese are "soft-spoken and uncombative", calm and level-headed. Sounds a LOT like the Terris. Not only that, but the Derethi have a rigid structure like the Obligators and -- to an extent -- the Inquisitors. And, of course, the Korathi are the most "free" people, which inherently leads to class differences like nobility but also generally content "common" people who speak for themselves and have their own ideas. Although some of the Skaa were oppressed in the Mistborn trilogy, the Skaa/Nobility were a LOT like the Korathi in that sense.
In a similar way, it seems to me that there are actually three forms of "magic" in Elantris as well. Though we haven't seen much other than the Dor, it has been shown that the Derethi are able to manipulate bone structure to create creatures that live a long time and have super-strength, and who knows what other powers. Similarly, the Jindoeese seem to have some sort of speed augmentation power and superior concentration (Blessing of Presence? Just kidding), though they may also have others. And, in keeping with the themes present in Mistborn, Aon power is fueled entirely by the Dor, while Bone-Twisting (I dunno what you're going to call it) causes a great deal of pain and undoubtedly requires some kind of sacrifice. In addition, the fanatical devotion of affected Derethi to their cause seems uncannily similar to the influence of Ruin over those who are pierced by metal (on the other hand, Hrathen kept his sanity in spite of his augmented arm and didn't seem to need to struggle with any voices...) Meanwhile, if I remember correctly, the Jindoeese martial arts -- ChayShan -- required a period of slow movement that eventually built in speed -- which reminds me of Feruchemy -- just without metals. These ideas (I refuse to call them "theories" as a reader's ideas cannot be backed up through experimentation -- only by what an author chooses to reveal about his OWN ideas) are probably riddled with holes in their present form, but maybe that's because it's been a year and a half since the last time I read Elantris and we didn't really get to see many examples of Jindo or Shu-Dereth power.
There's also that thing in the Glossary about how many who enter Dakhor are never seen again. This may be simply because of how secretive Dakhor's warriors are, but it might also be because some of the initiates are used as sacrifices to empower others.
I do wonder, too, whether Domi and Jaddeth are "real" deities in Arelon, or if there's something else going on here. Is Domi the current "spirit" wielding the power of the Dor, while Jaddeth is master of that creepy thing they do in monasteries?
...Also, a thought on "Lerasium": Does this imply an alloy called Mallerasium or something similar which does...something? If that's the case, doesn't that bring the total to 18? Maybe there are 20! And since the "temporal" metals show multiple possible alternate realities, perhaps Lerasium and the quartet it fits into has something to do with alternate realities/dimensions/futures/pasts as well. This is all just off the top of my head, but since Lerasium grants Allomancy (and, apparently, other powers if it's alloyed with other stuff) perhaps Mallerasium permanently inhibits powers. Meanwhile maybe there's still ANOTHER pair of metals even Sazed doesn't know about (or simply didn't want to tell about) that similarly affects time and space.
And and and...
...Even Warbreaker has two "magic" thingies: the Harmonics and the Hues. Hmmmm. Aside from that, I still wonder what the Pahn Kahl actually do believe. Several characters described that religion as "simple", but there's never an explicit definition of the Pahn Kahl religion. Then, too, there's ichor-alcohol, which seems to enhance the powers of Breath when used for the creation of a Lifeless, but which (as far as we've seen) is just a special chemical otherwise unconnected to BioChroma. Is there some other form of magic in the Warbreaker world that we somehow don't know about yet? Alchemy?
If not, there's still something interesting about the ways BioChroma can be used:
-In creating a Lifeless or similarly imbued artifact (such as Nightblood), power is eventually lost as the Lifeless will eventually "run down" and the Breath cannot be recovered. This is especially true with Nightblood, since he "eats" Breath.
-In Awakening, power is maintained since it can be recovered in the exact same amount after its job is done.
-In Returning, power is gained since an incredibly powerful Breath is bestowed on an individual who did not have that much before (unless said individual was an extremely rich and powerful Awakener...but such an individual is unlikely to Return, given what we know of the Warbreaker theology). Although the Returned also consume Breath, they do so at a slow rate and only one such as Vasher would have consumed enough to constitute "loss" of Breath (even if a Returned lived for decades, I think the Breath it was granted from the beginning is still more powerful than the sum Breaths consumed).
This follows the same pattern as the other books. The only anomaly is Alcatraz (both Talents and Lenses essentially derive something from nothing, and both can be used for either good or ill), but many of us speculate that Alcatraz's magic is unrelated to the "adult" novels.
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I had thought that, but the % killed the possibility of non base 10; it is per 100-an offshoot of a base 10 system
Now it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay likely that this is reading too much into it, but this would imply that Ruin and Preservation were human before. (Humans use base 10, likely as we have 10 fingers.)
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I would say that since the text is translated magically by the author, that that would inherently include the translation of their 16% into our 16%.
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I had thought that, but the % killed the possibility of non base 10; it is per 100-an offshoot of a base 10 system
Now it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay likely that this is reading too much into it, but this would imply that Ruin and Preservation were human before. (Humans use base 10, likely as we have 10 fingers.)
Since the system of mists Snapping people was designed by Preservation to leave hints that couldn't be corrupted by Ruin, it would be to his advantage to form the hints in a way that people could interpret. It would have been equally plausible if he had made 1/16 of the population Mistings, but as it is, the choice of base 10 to represent the number is basically a screaming clue that the system is unnatural...if not a clue that was ever used by the characters.
I am a little "mistified" that the number is so big; 16% is just short of 1/6, which is hardly the level of scarcity that Kelsier claimed for Mistings in book 1. Of course: that's just among skaa; the nobles were never affected by the mists (probably because they were all already Snapped by their beatings). It's possible that Allomancy, along with children, really is rarer among the nobility.
Curious: we know that Mistings existed before the Ascension. It is implied that all Allomancers today are descendents of the original nine, and therefore ultimately get their powers from the lerasium nuggets. However, if the percentages are really different among skaa and nobility, I wonder if in fact skaa Allomancy is "natural" where noble Allomancy is induced.
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Actually, my understanding of that was that the "Mistfallen" were ALL either Mistborn or Seers -- Elend believed that Preservation had been that specific to maximize the number of people who could burn Ruin. The Mists didn't only cause Snapping, I think -- they actually imbued those who would otherwise not BE Mistings with atium powers. (since EUOL has said that the Mists can act like any metal or alloy, I would assume this means that the Mists actually enter the individuals chosen and act like the proper alloy of Atium and Lerasium to imbue someone with Seer powers)
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It may well be that the mists were creating Allomancers, but they weren't creating Mistborn (at least, not everyone): On p. 530, Elend tells Demoux to "Divide your men by the metal it turns out they can burn"; given his recent extensive experience with the mistfallen, it would appear that they all turned out to burn just one metal.
It does make sense that the mists would create Mistings, though (aside from the name, another gigantic hint that everyone missed :) ), since it would otherwise be impossible to get the right percentages every time.
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Actually the mists were NOT creating mistings nor mistborn. There had been 1000 years of interbreeding that allowed exactly 16% of the population to have blood relations to the original mistborn. The proof behind this is NO nobles got sick at all. This is because the nobles all had been snapped already. It was part of family tradition to beat their children in order to cause them to snap. On the other hand, I suspect that every noble was some form of misting and that either they didn't know the metal they used or the metal didn't cause a discernible effect(Like Duralumin or Aluminum).
The ones who stayed sick longer, either the mist wanted to separate them out to take notice(as Sazed kind of indicated in one of his blurbs), or the fact that they were atium mistings which technically isn't one of the base metals meant the mist had a different reaction in them.
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Sorry, you're right. On re-reading various passages, I remember that the mists Snapped 16% of the Skaa, with an even distribution of Mistings (1/16 of each). Dockson and the others who were sick for 16 days were Atium mistings (Seers).
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The title of this thread should also mention that there are some Spoilers for Elantris....just to be safe.
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Conjecture: Since Atium/Malatium breaks the rules...and technically isn't a metal in the manner that the others are (the rest are just transition or poor metals, common enough on our Earth and found on the periodic table)...I was thinking that it's just a case of mistaken identity. The similarity of one of the potential effects of cremating a god apparently was similar enough to the effects of burning gold to confuse people.
I suggest that perhaps our REAL temporal metals which would follow the rules were never discovered (because, let's face it, if there was any known alternative to Atium people would have been using it too or instead of Atium) and the mistake was never uncovered because they're things people would never dream of ingesting. Like Platinum (generally rarer and more valuable in real life and fantasy), Mercury (because if it turned out you COULDN'T burn it...you'd have just poisoned yourself), or one of a host of other toxic and rare transition metals (because most of the Allomantic metals are among that group).
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Does the plutonium misting create nuclear explosions? Or just glow in the dark? ;D
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I just thought; since the metals are the same for each magic system, Vin should have had Sazed checking if he could use his Feruchemy on the different alloys (this would be in WoA, since in by HoA he's not in the same area as her much and isn't using his Feruchemy). Then we could have unlocked more feruchemical powers as well as allomancy.
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Does the plutonium misting create nuclear explosions? Or just glow in the dark? ;D
Or die.
:P
Or, do you? Remember, 'there's always another secret.'
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There's always another secret...
I wonder if being an Iron Misting would make one anemic.
Maybe in the next triology, the "modern" one, we'll be seeing Mistings popping Centrum knockoff tablets - after all, it SAYS "From A to Zinc". Certainly more efficient than downing little vials of alcohol and metal filings all the time. Centrum Allomancer tablets...that would rock. My roomate and I would love to see them actually make these things for our entertainment.
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Hey, new comer here, I loved HOA, and all of brandon's stuff, it's by far the most original and enjoyable fantasty I've read in a while.
EUOL, I do have a few questions about Kelsier in book 1
1. Did Kelsier have a tiny bit of metal in him that allowed Ruin to slightly influence him, because a lot of things he did helped out ruin ,like trying to kill the lord ruler, and he had an obsession with killing nobles, etc
2. I can't remember this exactly, but I think that Kelsier left the crew written instructions/clues, or something knowing he would die, did Ruin alter this at all?
3. And could you reveal any more about what the number 16 means?? or is going to be rafo?
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FAntastic book! Best one in the series and it had a great ending...but there is one thing i dont understand...the earring that was in vin. The way i understand it is that the spikes in people gave them their extra power, hence vin had greater power and could pierce copperclouds. So my question is how did she get this power? It supposedly came from vin's mom using vin's mistborn sister (of course it was guided by ruin) and killed her with a spike that drove through vin as well? Since I dont remember vin having any metal sticking out of her then was it the earring that somehow killed vin's sister and gave her the power??? In the book it always said the scene was very bloody and messy when reen found her and i find it hard to believe that the earring caused that?
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There's always another secret...
I wonder if being an Iron Misting would make one anemic.
Maybe in the next triology, the "modern" one, we'll be seeing Mistings popping Centrum knockoff tablets - after all, it SAYS "From A to Zinc". Certainly more efficient than downing little vials of alcohol and metal filings all the time. Centrum Allomancer tablets...that would rock. My roomate and I would love to see them actually make these things for our entertainment.
Lol... All I can think about is "Centrum for Allomancers" now. That would be a hilarious commercial to watch. And we can't forget the special "Centrum Silver for Allomancers: Not completely useless!" pills, too.
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Imagine the market for sports drinks. Or actually, I'm really interested in allomancer sports—they could be better than quidditch.
Hemalurgy doping for the olympics? Can't compete? Just steal someone else's power!
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There's always another secret...
I wonder if being an Iron Misting would make one anemic.
Maybe in the next triology, the "modern" one, we'll be seeing Mistings popping Centrum knockoff tablets - after all, it SAYS "From A to Zinc". Certainly more efficient than downing little vials of alcohol and metal filings all the time. Centrum Allomancer tablets...that would rock. My roomate and I would love to see them actually make these things for our entertainment.
Lol... All I can think about is "Centrum for Allomancers" now. That would be a hilarious commercial to watch. And we can't forget the special "Centrum Silver for Allomancers: Not completely useless!" pills, too.
You see! My roomie and I were just discussing Centrum Silver and how this would put it in a different light.
I wonder if B.S. would actually make Allomancer tailored multivitamins in another trilogy - seems like a modern solution to the problem of getting metals in you quickly and efficiently.
Now I've got to go make a fake advertisement for the product...and figure out where to post it.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h36/PlumSauceMelly/CentrumMistborn.gif)
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As for Vin's horseshoe trick, I think it's less a matter of "no one else thought of it" as opposed to "no one else could DO it." Vin, remember, had amazing and incredible precision with her steel-pushes and pulls. (Part of this would likely have come from the fact that she grew up as a thief. Remember, other Mistborn came from noble families and had no need to develop the subtler skills in their youth. And a large part of it would also be because Vin is, well... Vin!) As for the horseshoe trick, Elend was able to do it, but mainly because he was taught specifically by Vin, who had mastered it, and even then, he still had trouble, I believe.
Interesting idea, but I don't quite buy it. Perhaps most Mistborn couldn't manage that, but do you really think Kelsier wouldn't have been able to figure it out? I don't believe that. He's an extremely clever man whose expertise is Pushing and Pulling. The way he whipped loose pieces of metal around him when facing that final Inquisitor in The Final Empire demonstrates his skill.
Perhaps Kelsier actually knew about it and used it when he went to destroy the Pits? But then why wouldn't he share it with Vin? He shared just about everything else with her. Plus, he would have used it when he and Vin went to the rebels hideout in record time. He knew pewter-dragging was dangerous. Why would he do it if he knew it was unnecessary? The only reasons I can see are plot devices (such as excuse to explain pewter dragging). Anyway, I'm not trying to poke holes in the universe. I'd just like to understand the reasoning behind it.
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Imagine the market for sports drinks. Or actually, I'm really interested in allomancer sports—they could be better than quidditch.
Hemalurgy doping for the olympics? Can't compete? Just steal someone else's power!
Actually, I was thinking about that earlier, and I've kind of come up with something. It's basically basketball combined with football, but only with coinshots and lurchers. There's a team of each misting for each side. The ball would be a metal, and the point would be to have the metal ball being pushed by one team towards the goal posts (a hoop like basketball) with the lurchers trying to keep the ball from going in. If the ball falls to the ground, then the team possession changes. (Maybe each team could be made up of like five of each.)
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With a metal ball? That's just asking for somebody to die. Prolly some random child walking by, since they seem to have basketball magnets in their heads already...
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And that would lead to hat tricks, and I'd be happy.
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Does the plutonium misting create nuclear explosions? Or just glow in the dark? ;D
Neither. However, if they were ever to reach 88 miles per hour....... ;)
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Imagine the market for sports drinks. Or actually, I'm really interested in allomancer sports—they could be better than quidditch.
Hemalurgy doping for the olympics? Can't compete? Just steal someone else's power!
If there were to be a continuation for Mistborn, i could see there being allomantic sports--but only years after rebuilding. Since survival won't be so hard the people might have the luxury of boredom which would lead to the creation of sports...
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It is possible that a mistborn could referee, burning atium just enough to be able to tell if any spectators/players are in danger and then moving the ball.
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Well, if you have it in a marked court, like Hocky (with the big glass things around the arena to keep the ball from going into the audience) the there wouldn't be a problem. I was actually thinking this would be something for the future series. I just can't see those papered noblemen playing a sport, and they wouldn't be able to have their servants do it.
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Hey guys, can anyone remember in which book Brandon described Vin's appearance...hair and eye color?
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Eye color -- never said
Hair -- in the first book it's a deep brown, the second has it flat out black.
Height -- just over five feet
Skinny, but not malnurished (unless you're going the beginning of book one)
Walks with a grace, but slinks like a preditor.
I hope that helps.
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Since the second series is supposed to take place in a modern-day-type setting, after the rebuilding of situation, that's when things like pro sports would be a factor in the world. We can expect that anything our modern world has developed will have some sort of analogue on Scadrial, unless it's something that the presense of allomancers would have reduced the need for.
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1. Did Kelsier have a tiny bit of metal in him that allowed Ruin to slightly influence him, because a lot of things he did helped out ruin ,like trying to kill the lord ruler, and he had an obsession with killing nobles, etc
I interpreted things differently...
Kelsier's dream of overthrowing TLR came from his wife. It was not originally his dream. The books never spoke about Kelsier hearing voices and Ruin was obsessed with finding Atium (his body) which showed up in Vin's burning desire to find it no matter what the cost.
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Ahh, but Sazed did say in his blurbs that Kelsier came up with this legend of the eleventh metal out of nowhere. Nobody else had ever heard it nor was there any books about it. It was suspected that Kelsier was being influenced somehow. That of course is going off memory so the details could be off a bit but it should be pretty close to what was said. Sazed also said that it was surprising the number of people that were spiked, Vin of course being the obvious surprise. But it was never said if Kelsier had gotten some sort of spike. I suspect that Kelsier lost his mind in the mines and a voice came and helped him out. Afterall, they did say that Kelsier was a different man after the mines.
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Ahh, but Sazed did say in his blurbs that Kelsier came up with this legend of the eleventh metal out of nowhere. Nobody else had ever heard it nor was there any books about it. It was suspected that Kelsier was being influenced somehow. That of course is going off memory so the details could be off a bit but it should be pretty close to what was said. Sazed also said that it was surprising the number of people that were spiked, Vin of course being the obvious surprise. But it was never said if Kelsier had gotten some sort of spike. I suspect that Kelsier lost his mind in the mines and a voice came and helped him out. Afterall, they did say that Kelsier was a different man after the mines.
Isn't it possible that Ruin influenced someone else who told him the legend?
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Well, TLR knew about the 11th metal, as did any of his inquistors who went down into the area that talked about it (while changing supplies). Who's to say that one of them didn't meantion this "other metal" around a skaa (Maybe one that was brainwashed to think that the skaa were mindless animals as El kind of did in FE). That skaa, learning of it decided that it was something powerful, and told their friends. Then you have a telephone situation where as it gets passed around it grows, and suddenly when Kel finds out it's the way to defeate TLR.
The reason that Sazed wasn't able to find any evidance when he went looking was by that point the skaa were scattered here there and everywhere, and a lot of those who stayed where they had been were being effected by the mists. Who knows, maybe it was that town from WoA where everyone hid in their houses until they died (the only with the creepy, crazy canabal guy).
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Hi Brandon,
After discovering that you were completing the Wheel of Time I picked up Elantris and the Mistborn series for a read through and loved them. I'm happy that you have been chosen to finish Jordan's (RIP) work. I love fantasy worlds that have a defined order to the world and the magic within them. Both you and Jordan are great at this and I think you're a good fit to complete the series.
I have some questions about the Kandra that have been bugging me since completing my read through of the series and more so after reading through this thread and learning more about what happens to the world after the events in Mistborn.
When TenSoon kills OreSeur he uses OreSeur's spikes to give himself the Blessing of Potency. It was revealed that the hemalurgic spikes that give the Kandra consciousness could be placed in mistwraith again to give the Kandra the same consciousness they once possessed (if a little fuzzy).
1) Shouldn't TenSoon taking OreSeur's spikes have given him some kind of split personality?
2) If not, would TenSoon have assimilated some of OreSeur's personality (Maybe making him more sympathetic to Vin)?
3) Perhaps TenSoon simple suppressed OreSeur since he had the Blessing of Presence and more mental fortitude?
4) Wouldn't TenSoon know all the knowledge OreSeur knew after ingesting him if he had access to his consciousness and wouldn't have any need to have tortured him?
5) Or did TenSoon truly kill OreSeur and there is some way to truly kill a Kandra beyond removing their Hemalurgic spikes?
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I'm fairly sure personality, memory, etc. stay with the mistwraith, not the spikes. Any hemalurgically appropriate set of spikes will do to restore a mistwraith to Kandrahood, and the resulting Kandra will be the same one that the mistwraith had been, not the one the spikes came from. That should answer your first four question, though I'll note for #2 that assimilating OreSeur would probably have made him actually less sympathetic to Vin - she'd been treating him rather badly.
For the fifth, we know dissolving a Kandra in acid will truly kill him. There may be other ways, and it's not clear how much acid is required. Hmm, now that I think about it, there may have been mention of a mistwraith inside the city shortly after the replacement, but my memory on that is rather unclear and I don't have WoA on hand to check. If my memory is correct on that, then OreSeur may actually still be alive somewhere out there, but by the time anyone other than TenSoon found out it was impossible to determine which mistwraith would be the right one to restore.
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Presumably Kandra know a few ways to kill kandra, the most efficient being acid (which presumably, if they eat another Kandra, their stomach acid (or Kandra equivilent to stomachs) would be enough to kill them, though you'd have to knock them out long enough to eat them alive... euch...
Starvation will also kill a kandra, hence why TenSoon was fed regularly when he was in the pit...
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I'm fairly sure personality, memory, etc. stay with the mistwraith, not the spikes. Any hemalurgically appropriate set of spikes will do to restore a mistwraith to Kandrahood, and the resulting Kandra will be the same one that the mistwraith had been, not the one the spikes came from. That should answer your first four question, though I'll note for #2 that assimilating OreSeur would probably have made him actually less sympathetic to Vin - she'd been treating him rather badly.
For the fifth, we know dissolving a Kandra in acid will truly kill him. There may be other ways, and it's not clear how much acid is required. Hmm, now that I think about it, there may have been mention of a mistwraith inside the city shortly after the replacement, but my memory on that is rather unclear and I don't have WoA on hand to check. If my memory is correct on that, then OreSeur may actually still be alive somewhere out there, but by the time anyone other than TenSoon found out it was impossible to determine which mistwraith would be the right one to restore.
I suppose you're probably right, but I would think that the thing that initially gave them consciousness would retain a measure of that consciousness, if only a sliver. The consciousness thing is a little fuzzy on how it works. For #2 I probably should have said loyalty, not sympathy, as in OreSeur was loyal to Vin via contract and that would have carried over. The consciousness thing does bring up an interesting question though, if the Mistwraith are what once were Feruchemists, when they are given consciousness, is that the same consciousness that they once had when they were human, or a new consciousness? Would they be able to remember, no matter how vague, who they were before?
For the acid thing, its my understanding that normally they would be dissolved with acid with hemalurgic spikes intact, which would also dissolve the spikes.
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The consciousness thing does bring up an interesting question though, if the Mistwraith are what once were Feruchemists, when they are given consciousness, is that the same consciousness that they once had when they were human, or a new consciousness? Would they be able to remember, no matter how vague, who they were before?
Only the First generation were the original Feruchemists, who have their memory, mistwraiths breed true, so all Kandra other than the 1st Generation are mistwraiths that have been "awakened" with the hemalurgic spikes, hence the need to raise them since they would have no memory of ever having been human like the first generation.
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Hey guys, can anyone remember in which book Brandon described Vin's appearance...hair and eye color?
that would be in the firts book. and even through the third he did. " raven colored hair" or somethign like that... basically really black but i cannot remember her eye color
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Not sure if allomancers would be openly allowed to participate in sports, but if they were then Atium would be a banned substance, like steriods for all sports except fighting sports. Olympic Games: metal horseshoe marathon racing!!! Shotput and hammer throw!! funny, very funny!!
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Mistings will be quite widespread in society, so sports that didn't accommodate them would be discriminatory.
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I could see in the mistings and feruchemists and whatnot having to be registered by the government.
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I have a few questions....
1. How did an earring kill vin's sister and make it through to vin to give her the extra bronze powers?
2. What happens to the spikes in the kandra when they are being held prisoners, because i dont remember reading that they were in their pile of muscles but they also turn to mistwraiths if they dont have them?
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I am not sure it was the earring that kill her sister. I am at work, without my book, but I think that earring had the sister's blood on it or something to that nature.
And you would have to have Misting/Feruchemy..etc and Non-Misting/Feruchemy..etc league sports....kinda unfair for someone who can't burn pewter to fight or play against someone who can.
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I have a few questions....
1. How did an earring kill Vin's sister and make it through to Vin to give her the extra bronze powers?
2. What happens to the spikes in the kandra when they are being held prisoners, because i dont remember reading that they were in their pile of muscles but they also turn to mistwraiths if they dont have them?
1. The allomantic spike doesn't need to pierce directly into the person when that person is killed, it just loses some of it's power when outside of a body. Marsh's inner monologue tells all how it works when he's going to spike Lord Penrod. Also Vin's mother was under the control of Ruin, so the killing of her younger sister was probably pretty dang gruesome.
2. When they are being held prisoner they still have atleast the spikes that give them their mind, as when TenSoon is captive he mentions that he still has his. And yes if they don't have them they do indeed turn back into Mistwraiths, but would return to who they were when/if they were to get them back again, or at least that's my understanding of it.
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1. The allomantic spike doesn't need to pierce directly into the person when that person is killed, it just loses some of it's power when outside of a body. Marsh's inner monologue tells all how it works when he's going to spike Lord Penrod. Also Vin's mother was under the control of Ruin, so the killing of her younger sister was probably pretty dang gruesome.
No she wasn't. She was just crazy.
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1. The allomantic spike doesn't need to pierce directly into the person when that person is killed, it just loses some of it's power when outside of a body. Marsh's inner monologue tells all how it works when he's going to spike Lord Penrod. Also Vin's mother was under the control of Ruin, so the killing of her younger sister was probably pretty dang gruesome.
No she wasn't. She was just crazy.
Um, yes. Yes she was. Sazed implies as much in Book 3 in one of the bumps. Vin was the perfect opportunity---Mistborn, Misting sister, crazy mother. Ruin jumped at it. Of course, it was poisoned bait by Preservation.
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Regarding Hemalurgy:
1) In an annotation from book 1, it is mentioned that The Lord Ruler needed all 3 magic systems in order to do what he did. I always assumed that it meant his Hemalurgy enhanced his Allomancy. Did Marsh get a double power, or is the Feruchemy-Allomancy combo enough? ( a sidebar to this question is whether or not stacking abilities is possible through Hemalurgy).
2) Did Vin's mother actually have a spike, or was she so crazy that one wasn't necessary for Ruin to influence her?
3) When the Kandra get their spikes back, do they remember who they were, or have they been "rebooted"?
1) He used Hemalurgy to pull off his most dramatic effects. Marsh didn't need them, but it makes things much easier.
2) She was crazy enough on her own.
3) They remember, though some things are vague or foggy in their minds. Depends on the individual.
From this same thread. So I must have missed the part where Sazed implied it. You have the reference handy? I didn't think he could influence people unless they were spiked, and her mother wasn't.
Edit: OK found this: "people with unstable personalities were more susceptible to Ruin's influence, even if they didn't have a spike in them" pg 473 and "she was the only child Ruin could find who was in a position to gain the right Hemalurgic spike ... She had an insane mother, a sister who was a Seeker, and was--herself--Mistborn" (pg 499).
All of the info from this thread and the subtlties from the book, it's hard to keep everything straight.
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Kelsier was one crazy mom (his mother was just a fraud, not actually crazy) and an early Snapping away from having still more burden than he already had.
That musing aside...
It seems, from Zane's PoV that being unstable AND spiked would have been a bit redundant.
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Sorry if this has already been answered Brandon, I'm still working on getting caught up with the forums, I've been busy, sick, and dealing with identity theft! :o
But could you give us a short guide on how Spooks dialect is spoken?
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Actually, I was thinking about that earlier, and I've kind of come up with something. It's basically basketball combined with football, but only with coinshots and lurchers. There's a team of each misting for each side. The ball would be a metal, and the point would be to have the metal ball being pushed by one team towards the goal posts (a hoop like basketball) with the lurchers trying to keep the ball from going in. If the ball falls to the ground, then the team possession changes. (Maybe each team could be made up of like five of each.)
Hmm... I think if it were a rubber ball with a small metal core, that might actually work. Unless you want the bal to be massive enough to stop all the momentum the pusher or puller has and possibly kill someone. Woo! Now I want to watch it!
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Sorry if this has already been answered Brandon, I'm still working on getting caught up with the forums, I've been busy, sick, and dealing with identity theft! :o
But could you give us a short guide on how Spooks dialect is spoken?
I would actually love to see this as well. I think there have been a few sort-of explanations in other threads, but I'd love to see something a bit more detailed.
It would be so much fun to talk in the Spook's street slang with my friends.
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I was working on my Metals table last night and I was wondering what are the exact percentages for each Allomantic Alloy. We know Allomancer's Pewter is 91% Tin and 9% Lead so I was wondering what the others were.
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I was working on my Metals table last night and I was wondering what are the exact percentages for each Allomantic Alloy. We know Allomancer's Pewter is 91% Tin and 9% Lead so I was wondering what the others were.
Chromium's (the "15th metal") alloy (according to BS), Nicrosil (the 16th)
Nicrosil: 14.4% Chromium, 1.4% Silicon, 0.1% Magnesium, and the balance of that is Nickel.
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Wow finally finished this afternoon. AMAZING!!!
Brandon I am so glad you had the courage to finish the book as you saw fit, I think Vin and Elend dying made a lot of sense in the story, and while completely surprising, also made the book/series that much better in my mind.
I am sold as a Sanderson fan for all time! Keep writing what you believe in...
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Sorry if this has already been answered Brandon, I'm still working on getting caught up with the forums, I've been busy, sick, and dealing with identity theft! :o
But could you give us a short guide on how Spooks dialect is spoken?
I would actually love to see this as well. I think there have been a few sort-of explanations in other threads, but I'd love to see something a bit more detailed.
It would be so much fun to talk in the Spook's street slang with my friends.
That was my thought as well. ha ha. Everyone would be clueless!
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I was working on my Metals table last night and I was wondering what are the exact percentages for each Allomantic Alloy. We know Allomancer's Pewter is 91% Tin and 9% Lead so I was wondering what the others were.
Chromium's (the "15th metal") alloy (according to BS), Nicrosil (the 16th)
Nicrosil: 14.4% Chromium, 1.4% Silicon, 0.1% Magnesium, and the balance of that is Nickel.
But isn't there some variation in that? I mean, if it was actually .5% magnesium and only 13.9% Chromium it would still be Nicrosil, right?
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That's why I asked for the Allomancer's Alloy percentages. On wikipedia, Pewter is listed as between 85 and 99 percent tin with the remainder lead. Steel is not listed as exact percentages at all not to mention there are like a dozen different types of steel like stainless which contains Chromium or carbon which contains, SURPISE!, carbon! I'm looking to see if BS will give us exact numbers. :)
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Personally I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't have exact percentages but hey, he seems like a fairly analytical guy. He may surprise me.
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Wow... This book was AMAZING. Not since the WoT have I been so into and impacted by a series...
I'm surprised more people don't mention Vin as their favorite character. I mean, she may be the obvious choice for the casual reader, but what I loved was that Brandon was willing to make the "leading" character a very powerful (yet small and seemingly unassuming) girl. I mean, the image of her wiping out armies of humans and koloss (much less Inquisitors) was always awesome and refreshing!
Which brings me to say... Vin vs. the Inquisitors has to be the most incredible fight scene I've ever read. Images of the final battle in Matrix Revolutions flashed to mind, yet this was far beyond that. This IMO is what gives Brandon's writing such strength: you can rarely find an author who can write combat scenes well. Yet they are gripping, but also technical enough without getting bogged down in details or unrealism. That, plus how he can create vivid images of the world and action in a scene without using paragraphs and paragraphs of description are what, what I compare him to Robert Jordan, makes me confident not only that the WoT is in good hands, but that the last book will be as good and possibly better than any other WoT book. And if the climax is anything as gripping as Hero of Ages was, then I will be satisfied and it will be well worth the wait!
What I really loved about Vin (or the way that Brandon writes her) is how resourceful she is... She's always able to figure out how to do what seems impossible. That makes you *believe* she can do virtually anything, and absorbs you into her character in anticipation of what she's going to do next. I don't think I've ever devoured chapters of a character as hungrily as I did with Vin's. It was hard to absorb the ending for me. I thought that with Ruin's body destroyed, Vin would end up stronger and could destroy him, then take both halves of the power into herself. Though while part of me wishes it had ended this way, without being able to live with Elend they would both have been... incomplete. After reflection I see that she did was she was born to do... and in my mind she's not only the hero of the book, but the Hero of Ages, as well.
BTW... Has anyone felt a resemblance between Vin, and of Gally/Alita of the Battle Angel manga/anime series? I know it's a long-shot that there may be some Battle Angel fans out there, but I just wanted to throw that out... (for pics check out http://www.battleangel.info)
Speaking of which, "Mistborn" would make an excellent manga - and video game - and movie - as well. Hopefully as Brandon's skill continues to become known in the literary world (as it should) we will see some of these someday. :D
- Josh
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3. A compass would work, but remember that the Final Empire is set at the north pole of Scadrial, but not necessarily at the magnetic north pole. These things are complicated, but just assume that it works the same way it would here on Earth.
Hold on there.
If say, Luthadel, is at the north pole (and not necessarily the magnetic one, so they're on top of the axis the planet is turning around) *and* there are seasons on said planet (meaning that the planets axis isn't completely perpendicular to the imaginary line from planet to sun), doesn't that mean that they'll have very long days in summer and very long nights in winter?
Having said that, this would allow for interesting options on how the people on the south pole did survive.
In fact, that's similar to the way things work around here on our little earth. However, a thing as days with 22 hours of sunlight in the summer but 2 hours of sunlight in the winter seems like something that would've been mentioned, so I'm probably wrong here. Thus, either a) there is an inconsistency in the Mistborn world, b) Brandon just never mentioned this in his books or c) the seasons are caused by something other than the non-perpendicularity mentioned above.
c) would be interesting. Maybe the planet goes around the sun in an egg-shape (would make winter longer than summer I guess)? Maybe the sun is hotter on one side?
P.S. I just used the word (?) non-perpendicularity. Please bow before me in awe.
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3. A compass would work, but remember that the Final Empire is set at the north pole of Scadrial, but not necessarily at the magnetic north pole. These things are complicated, but just assume that it works the same way it would here on Earth.
Hold on there.
If say, Luthadel, is at the north pole (and not necessarily the magnetic one, so they're on top of the axis the planet is turning around) *and* there are seasons on said planet (meaning that the planets axis isn't completely perpendicular to the imaginary line from planet to sun), doesn't that mean that they'll have very long days in summer and very long nights in winter?
Having said that, this would allow for interesting options on how the people on the south pole did survive.
In fact, that's similar to the way things work around here on our little earth. However, a thing as days with 22 hours of sunlight in the summer but 2 hours of sunlight in the winter seems like something that would've been mentioned, so I'm probably wrong here. Thus, either a) there is an inconsistency in the Mistborn world, b) Brandon just never mentioned this in his books or c) the seasons are caused by something other than the non-perpendicularity mentioned above.
c) would be interesting. Maybe the planet goes around the sun in an egg-shape (would make winter longer than summer I guess)? Maybe the sun is hotter on one side?
P.S. I just used the word (?) non-perpendicularity. Please bow before me in awe.
I have a feeling that Rashek spun the world or took care of this somehow to put Luthadel in a much safer position--so, after he changed the world, Luthadel, or the WoA, weren't magnetic north.
That's just my guess.
Sorry if this has already been answered Brandon, I'm still working on getting caught up with the forums, I've been busy, sick, and dealing with identity theft! :o
But could you give us a short guide on how Spooks dialect is spoken?
I would actually love to see this as well. I think there have been a few sort-of explanations in other threads, but I'd love to see something a bit more detailed.
It would be so much fun to talk in the Spook's street slang with my friends.
That was my thought as well. ha ha. Everyone would be clueless!
And the fun begins! ;D
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Couldn't agree more with newimperium. And I cant wait for AMoL! I guess Warbreaker will have to hold me over till then :)
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Sorry if this has already been answered Brandon, I'm still working on getting caught up with the forums, I've been busy, sick, and dealing with identity theft! :o
But could you give us a short guide on how Spooks dialect is spoken?
I would actually love to see this as well. I think there have been a few sort-of explanations in other threads, but I'd love to see something a bit more detailed.
It would be so much fun to talk in the Spook's street slang with my friends.
That was my thought as well. ha ha. Everyone would be clueless!
And the fun begins! ;D
Wasing the having of fun of the do?
At our book signing, we asked about Spook's dialect, and got a very basic lesson. The dialect was designed to confuse outsiders, and it does that through use of key words, along with a bunch of semi-meaningless words. I think most if not all of the key words end in -ing.
So, "Wasing the where," could be "Where are/were/will you (be)," though it would probably be more like, "Wasing the where of having the had?" (Where did you have that? Or something close to that.)
Hope that helps.
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Sorry if this has already been answered Brandon, I'm still working on getting caught up with the forums, I've been busy, sick, and dealing with identity theft! :o
But could you give us a short guide on how Spooks dialect is spoken?
I would actually love to see this as well. I think there have been a few sort-of explanations in other threads, but I'd love to see something a bit more detailed.
It would be so much fun to talk in the Spook's street slang with my friends.
That was my thought as well. ha ha. Everyone would be clueless!
And the fun begins! ;D
Wasing the having of fun of the do?
At our book signing, we asked about Spook's dialect, and got a very basic lesson. The dialect was designed to confuse outsiders, and it does that through use of key words, along with a bunch of semi-meaningless words. I think most if not all of the key words end in -ing.
So, "Wasing the where," could be "Where are/were/will you (be)," though it would probably be more like, "Wasing the where of having the had?" (Where did you have that? Or something close to that.)
Hope that helps.
Hmm. Interesting. I am trying to think of how to say something...but my head hurts now. Owe.
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Went to the signing yesterday (better turnout than I would've thought) and got to ask Brandon about Hoid. His response, sly grin and all, was "Hoid? Hoid who?".
I think writing the 12th WoT book has rubbed a bit of RJs RAFO-habit off onto Brandon.
Have we figured out for sure what Nicrosil and Chromium do? All the theories I've read seem fairly flat... I just don't see that strong of a parallelism working between the Aluminum/Duralumin and Chromium/Nicrosil pairing.
Q: Are you ever planning to write a book with a Shard as a main character? Or one that goes into depth about them?
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Have we figured out for sure what Nicrosil and Chromium do? All the theories I've read seem fairly flat... I just don't see that strong of a parallelism working between the Aluminum/Duralumin and Chromium/Nicrosil pairing.
Yes, one of them will allow you to burn away all of someone else's metals while the other allows you to make someone else have a similar effect to burning Duralumin.
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I was working on my Metals table last night and I was wondering what are the exact percentages for each Allomantic Alloy. We know Allomancer's Pewter is 91% Tin and 9% Lead so I was wondering what the others were.
Chromium's (the "15th metal") alloy (according to BS), Nicrosil (the 16th)
Nicrosil: 14.4% Chromium, 1.4% Silicon, 0.1% Magnesium, and the balance of that is Nickel.
But isn't there some variation in that? I mean, if it was actually .5% magnesium and only 13.9% Chromium it would still be Nicrosil, right?
Not sure on that one...but wiki and the technical documents which I could find listed that kind of distribution.
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3. A compass would work, but remember that the Final Empire is set at the north pole of Scadrial, but not necessarily at the magnetic north pole. These things are complicated, but just assume that it works the same way it would here on Earth.
Hold on there.
If say, Luthadel, is at the north pole (and not necessarily the magnetic one, so they're on top of the axis the planet is turning around) *and* there are seasons on said planet (meaning that the planets axis isn't completely perpendicular to the imaginary line from planet to sun), doesn't that mean that they'll have very long days in summer and very long nights in winter?
Having said that, this would allow for interesting options on how the people on the south pole did survive.
In fact, that's similar to the way things work around here on our little earth. However, a thing as days with 22 hours of sunlight in the summer but 2 hours of sunlight in the winter seems like something that would've been mentioned, so I'm probably wrong here. Thus, either a) there is an inconsistency in the Mistborn world, b) Brandon just never mentioned this in his books or c) the seasons are caused by something other than the non-perpendicularity mentioned above.
c) would be interesting. Maybe the planet goes around the sun in an egg-shape (would make winter longer than summer I guess)? Maybe the sun is hotter on one side?
P.S. I just used the word (?) non-perpendicularity. Please bow before me in awe.
I have a feeling that Rashek spun the world or took care of this somehow to put Luthadel in a much safer position--so, after he changed the world, Luthadel, or the WoA, weren't magnetic north.
That's just my guess.
You didn't get it :P It's not about being magnetic north, it's about being op top of the planet. This top is generally named "north pole".
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Yes, one of them will allow you to burn away all of someone else's metals while the other allows you to make someone else have a similar effect to burning Duralumin.
That doesn't follow the patterns of the other metals. If you notice the way metals work, one pair effects people, the other pair effects metals. For instance, Tin and Pewter effect people, Iron and Steel effect metal. Brass and Zinc effect people, Copper and Bronze effect metal. Gold and Electrum effect people, I'm of the opinion that Atium and Malatium don't belong on this table for many reasons, one of which is because they also effect people and not metal. Aluminum and Duralumin effect metal, the other pair should effect people directly. You'll notice that also tin and pewter are on the inside of the circle and effect people, brass and zinc are on the outside, gold and electrum are on the inside, chromium and nicrosil are on the outside. This table is very organized and follows many patterns. What you claim does not follow the patterns.
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If the planet is tilted a lot less than Earth, but still tilted a little, it could have seasons that aren't extreme and the day length would not be very different from summer to winter.
Also, the seasons could be due more to the distance from the sun than to the axial tilt: but that would mean that seasons would be more extreme on one pole than on the other. For example, if we assume that the Final Empire's seasons are due mostly to distance from the sun and the planet is not tilted at all (I don't remember; how much does the book talk about day length changing as the seasons progress?), then north and south poles would have summer at the same time instead of at opposite times like on Earth (our Earth is actually slightly closer to the sun during northern hemisphere winter; our seasons come mostly from axial tilt rather than sun distance).
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If the planet is tilted a lot less than Earth, but still tilted a little, it could have seasons that aren't extreme and the day length would not be very different from summer to winter.
Also, the seasons could be due more to the distance from the sun than to the axial tilt: but that would mean that seasons would be more extreme on one pole than on the other. For example, if we assume that the Final Empire's seasons are due mostly to distance from the sun and the planet is not tilted at all (I don't remember; how much does the book talk about day length changing as the seasons progress?), then north and south poles would have summer at the same time instead of at opposite times like on Earth (our Earth is actually slightly closer to the sun during northern hemisphere winter; our seasons come mostly from axial tilt rather than sun distance).
Perhaps that very detail is the glitch that TLR couldn't take into account...
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Yes, one of them will allow you to burn away all of someone else's metals while the other allows you to make someone else have a similar effect to burning Duralumin.
That doesn't follow the patterns of the other metals. If you notice the way metals work, one pair effects people, the other pair effects metals. For instance, Tin and Pewter effect people, Iron and Steel effect metal. Brass and Zinc effect people, Copper and Bronze effect metal. Gold and Electrum effect people, I'm of the opinion that Atium and Malatium don't belong on this table for many reasons, one of which is because they also effect people and not metal. Aluminum and Duralumin effect metal, the other pair should effect people directly. You'll notice that also tin and pewter are on the inside of the circle and effect people, brass and zinc are on the outside, gold and electrum are on the inside, chromium and nicrosil are on the outside. This table is very organized and follows many patterns. What you claim does not follow the patterns.
3) The last two metals are Chromium and Nicrosil. We'll reveal what they do on the Allomancy poster. Suffice it to say that in the next trilogy, the main protagonist would be a Nicrosil Misting. And, to make a Robert Jordan-type comment, what those two metals do should become obvious to the serious student of Allomancy... (It has to do with the nature of the metal groupings.)
If I read the poster correctly, and have the correlations down, these metals are the external enhancement metals.
The simplest idea is that they do to another person what Aluminum and Duralumin do to the Allomancer burning them. If this is true, then Chromium would destroy another Allomancer's metals (useful skill, that, especially in a group of Mistings fighting a Mistborn) while Nicrosil would cause the target's metals that are currently burning to be burned in a brief, intense flash. This could be used either to enhance a group of Mistings or to seriously mess up an enemy Allomancer.
Nicely done.
Someone else already asked about it and EUOL confirmed it.
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Of course his next line in that is:
Ookla is right, the others don't have 1/1 correlations. But I liked this concept far too much not to use it.
In other words, it doesn't fit the pattern. When I originally read this, I took it to mean that he liked what happyman said so much that he couldn't not use it. To me it meant that it wasn't what he originally intended it to do which is why I fight on to find the original intention as this idea doesn't fit.
If its true that this is how BS intended it to work, I will be very disappointed because I was very excited about patterns and the idea of unknowns that we had to guess and if he won't even follow his own patterns then there is no reason for the scientists of us out there to even try.
To me, this isn't the obvious result to a serious allomancy student as BS indicates. There is no correlation to Internal vs External within the groupings. For instance, Brass, Zinc, Copper and Bronze are all technically external to the allomancer. Tin, Pewter are Internal, and Iron and Steel are External. Whether or not BS confirmed it, it doesn't fit the patterns.
If BS is going to say something like:
what those two metals do should become obvious to the serious student of Allomancy...
Then it is my opinion that his system should follow the pattern and maintain the 1/1 correlation.
I will keep searching for the real intended use that does follow the pattern and fight against this.
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How could it not fit within that? You say it needs to affect the people. It's their body that is burning the metal. So it's affecting how their body interacts with the metals not necessarily affecting the metals themselves. ;)
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Ookla is right, the others don't have 1/1 correlations. But I liked this concept far too much not to use it.
I guess he did say that... I' slightly disappointed, now. Everything else, he's so meticulously figured into a pattern, avoiding obvious parallelisms, yet maintaining logical steps between both types of pairs within a section...
Anyway, last night my roommate and I (he's only on the second book, but he figured out that there were 16 mistings a while ago) were discussing the genetics involved in Allomancy. It's been an interesting discussion, seeing how he's a bio major, and I think he's still in his room now trying to figure it out, lol.
Pre-post Edit (new posts...):
How could it not fit within that? You say it needs to affect the people. It's their body that is burning the metal. So it's affecting how their body interacts with the metals not necessarily affecting the metals themselves. ;)
If that's the justification, then Aluminum and Duralumin effect the user's body, not their metals.
I could see Chromium suppressing metal usage, but probably not outright burning off metals. Still a bit lost on Nicrosil...
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How could it not fit within that? You say it needs to affect the people. It's their body that is burning the metal. So it's affecting how their body interacts with the metals not necessarily affecting the metals themselves. ;)
If that's the justification, then Aluminum and Duralumin effect the user's body, not their metals.
I could see Chromium suppressing metal usage, but probably not outright burning off metals. Still a bit lost on Nicrosil...
Yeah exactly. In that example, they both effect metals in the same way. Look at the Mental group. One pair effects people's emotions, the other detects and protects people using metals. The one has nothing to do with metal at all, but the other effects both the people and the metal together. That is exactly how the Enhancement group should work. One effects the people and the metal together, the other should not effect metal at all. I could see Chromium and Nicrosil effecting other people in the same way Tin and Pewter effect oneself. That would at least follow the pattern. That is also unlikely though as no other metals mimic the abilities of another group. In any case, I continue my efforts to not only redefine what the metals do but to also to find the last two metals(in place of atium and malatium) and determine what the last four metals do/are supposed to do according to the patterns and not according to Brandon's misdirection(The tables at the back of the book are misdirecting us IMO).
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i'm falling very behind in these forumns.
Here's something that has been bugging me though.
If Inquisitors all have the feruchemical power of gold, where do they store health. At first I thought gold spike, but pewter gives feruchemical physical powers, and gold has no hemalurgic use. So do all inquisitors wear goldminds?
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i'm falling very behind in these forumns.
Here's something that has been bugging me though.
If Inquisitors all have the feruchemical power of gold, where do they store health. At first I thought gold spike, but pewter gives feruchemical physical powers, and gold has no hemalurgic use. So do all inquisitors wear goldminds?
ZOMGSH IT'S COMA! They would have to IMO.
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Gold has no hemalurgic use we know of, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. They wouldn't just wear goldminds if that's all they were, they'd make sure they were piercing, so Mistborn couldn't yank on them.
WB Comatose, long time no see.
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How could it not fit within that? You say it needs to affect the people. It's their body that is burning the metal. So it's affecting how their body interacts with the metals not necessarily affecting the metals themselves. ;)
If that's the justification, then Aluminum and Duralumin effect the user's body, not their metals.
I could see Chromium suppressing metal usage, but probably not outright burning off metals. Still a bit lost on Nicrosil...
Yeah exactly. In that example, they both effect metals in the same way. Look at the Mental group. One pair effects people's emotions, the other detects and protects people using metals. The one has nothing to do with metal at all, but the other effects both the people and the metal together. That is exactly how the Enhancement group should work. One effects the people and the metal together, the other should not effect metal at all. I could see Chromium and Nicrosil effecting other people in the same way Tin and Pewter effect oneself. That would at least follow the pattern. That is also unlikely though as no other metals mimic the abilities of another group. In any case, I continue my efforts to not only redefine what the metals do but to also to find the last two metals(in place of atium and malatium) and determine what the last four metals do/are supposed to do according to the patterns and not according to Brandon's misdirection(The tables at the back of the book are misdirecting us IMO).
You and I probably have nearly identical charts and theories about the REAL second set of temporal metals somewhere on our computers SK - Mine is in Google docs if you want me to share. Looks like you're putting up yours on your wiki though so I can just throw in anything you missed if you like.
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You and I probably have nearly identical charts and theories about the REAL second set of temporal metals somewhere on our computers SK - Mine is in Google docs if you want me to share. Looks like you're putting up yours on your wiki though so I can just throw in anything you missed if you like.
Absolutely! Feel free to fill in before I get there too, I'm always behind :).
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So noted ^_^
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I don't think I'll ever be able to read through all of this. I hope I don't miss out on anything too important. Thank you, Brandon. this book series has been a true joy in my life. I missed out on seeing you at UVU when you spoke in October. I don't think you'll ever understand how much this trilogy has meant to me, and I mean that in the SAPPIEST of ways.
I have one question that will hopefully answer a lot about your writing. Does the name Mahonri Moriancumr mean anything to you?
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Is that really how it's spelt? I always thought it was different. *shrug* I guess I never really paid attention to that. I just read the information.
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It's Mahonri Moriancumer, though leaving out the "e" at the end might make it look even more Jaredite-authentic.
Anyway, Forloc, if you're just asking if Brandon is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the answer is yes.
Yes, one of them will allow you to burn away all of someone else's metals while the other allows you to make someone else have a similar effect to burning Duralumin.
That doesn't follow the patterns of the other metals. If you notice the way metals work, one pair effects people, the other pair effects metals. For instance, Tin and Pewter effect people, Iron and Steel effect metal. Brass and Zinc effect people, Copper and Bronze effect metal. Gold and Electrum effect people, I'm of the opinion that Atium and Malatium don't belong on this table for many reasons, one of which is because they also effect people and not metal. Aluminum and Duralumin effect metal, the other pair should effect people directly. You'll notice that also tin and pewter are on the inside of the circle and effect people, brass and zinc are on the outside, gold and electrum are on the inside, chromium and nicrosil are on the outside. This table is very organized and follows many patterns. What you claim does not follow the patterns.
Shadowkiller, that analysis of the metals is not the way the characters in the book understand them, and while Brandon has said that the characters are getting some things wrong in their classification system, he hasn't given any indication that your analysis is correct. There are also inconsistencies in your analysis. Internal metals: Tin, Pewter, Copper, Bronze, Gold, Electrum, Aluminum, Duralumin. Those are all on the inside of the circle, yet half of them are what you say effect metals and half aren't. If you're suggesting that the metal-effectors alternate between inside and outside the circle—well, the order of the metal quadrants around the circle is arbitrary as far as I could tell.
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I think we need to remodel the chart on our own to fit the patterns we see. Something like Left Half = Metallic/Right Half = Organic, Top = Base Metals/Bottom = High Metals, Inner ring = Pulling/Outer = Pushing, then the First Clockwise of each sector could be Internal, and the second External. Then again... that might be what's been done... I don't have a table on hand.
The way the pattern I see sits, Chromium and Nicrosil would effect metals, I've just been doubting the staunchly parallel, 1:1 of "this one does to them, what it's neighbor does to you" of Aluminum and Chromium. THAT doesn't fit. Brass and Zinc don't make other people stronger or have better senses, and Copper and Bronze don't make metal push and pull away from other people. Why should that be the case here?
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Shadowkiller, that analysis of the metals is not the way the characters in the book understand them, and while Brandon has said that the characters are getting some things wrong in their classification system, he hasn't given any indication that your analysis is correct. There are also inconsistencies in your analysis. Internal metals: Tin, Pewter, Copper, Bronze, Gold, Electrum, Aluminum, Duralumin. Those are all on the inside of the circle, yet half of them are what you say effect metals and half aren't. If you're suggesting that the metal-effectors alternate between inside and outside the circle—well, the order of the metal quadrants around the circle is arbitrary as far as I could tell.
He hasn't even seen my classification as far as I can tell as he hasn't been around in quite a while(at least not posted on this topic). I fully believe that the analysis in the book and on the poster is directly related to what the characters see and that they in fact DO have it wrong. I think Brandon is misleading us by giving us what the characters see and not his true classification system. I may be totally wrong, I admit, but Brandon challenged us to figure it out ourselves and I think we've got it wrong too. I want to entirely reclassify the whole list.
I don't like the classification Internal and External. If you're talking in relation to the circle, that's fine, but if you're talking about effects, that's another descriptor that Brandon gave us in book 1 that I believe is misleading. For instance, its my opinion that all the mental metals are external. Zinc and Brass are obvious but Copper and Bronze are less so. With Bronze you sense other peoples pulses. I can't remember offhand if you can sense your own. With Copper, you may cloud yourself, but you also cloud everyone around you. If you think about it, you just happen to be in the cloud cause it is centered on you but it is entirely external to you. Tin and Pewter are very much internal metals as they both effect you and only you. Aluminum and Duralumin are also very much internal as they also effect you and only you... and your metals.
I think the entire chart is wrong and its done purposefully. Maybe I'm reading more into what Brandon is doing than he intended, but its fun so I'm gonna keep doing it till he comes here and sets me down himself :).
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SK: I'm not big on some of the terms used in the first book...but they serve to organize the data until we get ACCURATE descriptions!
We already know that Brandon is intentionally holding AT LEAST two metals back (the REAL second set of "Temporal" metals).
Who knows what else he's keeping back. Maybe silver is useful but in a totally unexpected manner unknown to Mistborn.
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I doubt Silver is useful... It's combined with gold for electrum, so I doubt that it's paired with gold as a Temporal, and from the chart we have now, it's complete beyond those last two.
What about Platnium, Mercury, or... Has anyone bothered looking at the periodic table and trying to find a relationship with the base metals on it?
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What about Platnium, Mercury, or... Has anyone bothered looking at the periodic table and trying to find a relationship with the base metals on it?
In the process of putting together the table. Preliminary results show little relationship on the table itself.
http://burntoutcomic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Metals
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Tungsten, Titanium, Cobalt, and Platnium are my candidates... I think I see a bit of a pattern with them.
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Okay, Allomantic metals. Let's start with a reference table for those who may be just joining the conversation.
Physical Metals:
Iron: External Pulling metal. Pulls external metals to the Allomancer. Simple enough.
Steel: External Pushing metal. Same as iron, but swapped.
Tin: Internal Pulling metal. Increases bodily input functions, Pulling out more sensitivity.
Pewter: Internal Pushing metal. Increases bodily output functions, Pushing the body further.
(Notes: Tin and Pewter do balance out, as pewter provides a counterpoint to tin's senses, and tin provides a counter to pewter's lack of feeling.)
Mental Metals:
Zinc: External Pulling metal. Pulls on the emotions of others, inflaming passions.
Brass: External Pushing metal. Pushes on the emotions of others, dampening passions.
Copper: Internal Pulling metal. Pulls tight your area in the fabric of creation. This prevents Allomantic pulses and mental Allomancy.
Bronze: Internal Pushing metal. Pushes open the awareness to the fabric of creation. (Or perhaps Pushes out an Allomantic echo pulse.) Lets an Allomancer hear ripples in the fabric.
(Notes: Copper, at least, is indeed an internal metal. Vin can feel a slight buzzing within herself when she burns it, as evidenced in The Final Empire. I believe the same is true for bronze.)
Temporal Metals:
Gold: Internal Pulling metal. Pulls an alternate past into the present.
Electrum: Internal Pushing metal. Pushes out an array of possible futures.
Enhancement Metals:
Chromium: External Pulling metal. Enables an Allomancer to Pull away another Allomancer's metals.
Nicrosil: External Pushing metal. Enables an Allomancer to Push out another Allomancer's metals.
Aluminum: Internal Pulling metal. Pulls away an Allomancer's metals, preventing their use.
Duralumin: Internal Pushing metal. Pushes out an Allomancer's metals, expending them all in one flare.
(Notes:I don't think it's ever been confirmed that the metals themselves are affected, merely their Allomantic effect.)
Shards of Andonalsium:
Lerasium: Bequeaths Allomancy. Alloys create mistings.
Atium: Shows the most probable outcome of a situation. Alloys show different things. (Probably, as witnessed by the gold alloy, malatium.)
The main discrepancy I have with your theories, MellingtonBoots and ShadowKiller, is that Copper and Brass don't affect metals, they affect the Allomancer. This is illustrated in the books, and Brandon even mentioned the fabric of creation in an earlier post in this topic.
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#1: I like where you're going Avalon. I'm going to vote Platinum for now as that is the one I see the biggest pattern with. I explained the pattern on my wiki which I linked just above you.
#2:Czanos, that entire table is pretty much located on my website at the link I posted. It can be edited by anyone who wishes to add anything they see to it.
#3:In reference to your discrepancy, Czanos, they do not effect the Allomancer, they effect and are effected by the metals the Allomancers are using. If the Allomancer is not burning any metal, Bronze detects nothing. If the Allomancer is not burning anything, there is no need for a Copper cloud as it protects nothing. Aluminum doesn't effect the Allomancer at all, just burns off all the metals. Duralumin, if the Allomancer is not burning any metals, does nothing and only effects the metals the Allomancer IS burning. Its my opinion that all these cases are very specific to one thing and that is metal. In both of these groups its allomantic metals, but they are metals none-the-less. With Iron and Steel, its not necessarily allomantic metals, but it is still metals. All the other abilities do not involve metals at all. They don't involve allomancers, they don't involve allomancers metal, they don't involve any metal. They involve people and very specifically people, whether it be the allomancer themselves or others who may not be allomancers. That is why I say metal vs people.
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#3:In reference to your discrepancy, Czanos, they do not effect the Allomancer, they effect and are effected by the metals the Allomancers are using. If the Allomancer is not burning any metal, Bronze detects nothing. If the Allomancer is not burning anything, there is no need for a Copper cloud as it protects nothing. Aluminum doesn't effect the Allomancer at all, just burns off all the metals. Duralumin, if the Allomancer is not burning any metals, does nothing and only effects the metals the Allomancer IS burning. Its my opinion that all these cases are very specific to one thing and that is metal. In both of these groups its allomantic metals, but they are metals none-the-less. With Iron and Steel, its not necessarily allomantic metals, but it is still metals. All the other abilities do not involve metals at all. They don't involve allomancers, they don't involve allomancers metal, they don't involve any metal. They involve people and very specifically people, whether it be the allomancer themselves or others who may not be allomancers. That is why I say metal vs people.
Ah, but does it affect the metals, that is the question, it is equally logical that it is affecting the person. Because remember it is the person who is actually burning the metals in the first place, so then what Duralumin does can just as easily said to be increasing the bodies ability to burn metal at an exponential rate, and that Aluminum allows the body to instantly purge the metals. Whose to say that Iron and Steel do not in fact give the body the ability to manipulate the metals. It is my personal theory that the metals when burned do nothing but affect the burners body, so that he has access to small shards of the power of Adonalsium. And I can be completely wrong here, as either explanation seems completely reasonable to me.
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Ah, but does it affect the metals, that is the question, it is equally logical that it is affecting the person. Because remember it is the person who is actually burning the metals in the first place, so then what Duralumin does can just as easily said to be increasing the bodies ability to burn metal at an exponential rate, and that Aluminum allows the body to instantly purge the metals. Whose to say that Iron and Steel do not in fact give the body the ability to manipulate the metals. It is my personal theory that the metals when burned do nothing but affect the burners body, so that he has access to small shards of the power of Adonalsium. And I can be completely wrong here, as either explanation seems completely reasonable to me.
What I'm really trying to say is not that it effects metals directly but rather that the effects involve metals. Without metals, there is no effect. Without metal, Iron and Steel are useless. Without an another allomancer burning metal, Bronze and Copper are useless. Without the allomancer having injested metal, Duralumin and Aluminum are useless. They are all useless without metal outside of the metal being burned. There is nothing in there saying how they effect or change the allomancer burning them, just that their effects involve metals whereas the others do not.
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What I'm really trying to say is not that it effects metals directly but rather that the effects involve metals. Without metals, there is no effect. Without metal, Iron and Steel are useless. Without an another allomancer burning metal, Bronze and Copper are useless. Without the allomancer having injested metal, Duralumin and Aluminum are useless. They are all useless without metal outside of the metal being burned. There is nothing in there saying how they effect or change the allomancer burning them, just that their effects involve metals whereas the others do not.
Ah, I see what your getting at now.
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Ah, but does it affect the metals, that is the question, it is equally logical that it is affecting the person. Because remember it is the person who is actually burning the metals in the first place, so then what Duralumin does can just as easily said to be increasing the bodies ability to burn metal at an exponential rate, and that Aluminum allows the body to instantly purge the metals. Whose to say that Iron and Steel do not in fact give the body the ability to manipulate the metals. It is my personal theory that the metals when burned do nothing but affect the burners body, so that he has access to small shards of the power of Adonalsium. And I can be completely wrong here, as either explanation seems completely reasonable to me.
What I'm really trying to say is not that it effects metals directly but rather that the effects involve metals. Without metals, there is no effect. Without metal, Iron and Steel are useless. Without an another allomancer burning metal, Bronze and Copper are useless. Without the allomancer having injested metal, Duralumin and Aluminum are useless. They are all useless without metal outside of the metal being burned. There is nothing in there saying how they effect or change the allomancer burning them, just that their effects involve metals whereas the others do not.
But copper and bronze don't have anything to do with metals. They deal with ripples in the fabric of creation, which are caused when someone taps into the powers of a Shard. This is shown because the mist spirit, who didn't have any metals, gave off a distinct "Allomantic" pulse.
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But copper and bronze don't have anything to do with metals. They deal with ripples in the fabric of creation, which are caused when someone taps into the powers of a Shard. This is shown because the mist spirit, who didn't have any metals, gave off a distinct "Allomantic" pulse.
It sounds like you're trying to say that just because Ice is completely unlike Steam means it isn't made of the same stuff. Metal is made of the power of the Shard, so is the Mist Spirit. Just cause they look, feel and seem different doesn't mean they aren't made of the same stuff in the end.
Its pretty much stated that all metals are made of power. This is expressed by the fact that none of the so called gods can read anything on any metal because it shines with power and by the fact that the mist spirit gave off the Allomantic pulse as you state. My point is that without metal outside of itself, copper and bronze do nothing. My argument has nothing to do with the ripples, nor does it preclude the ripples, just the fact that there is metal involved in the process at some point that doesn't include the copper or bronze being burned is all I'm referencing.
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It's Mahonri Moriancumer, though leaving out the "e" at the end might make it look even more Jaredite-authentic.
Anyway, Forloc, if you're just asking if Brandon is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the answer is yes.
Thanks. That reaffirms the allegoric (is that the right word?) connections I was making.
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3. A compass would work, but remember that the Final Empire is set at the north pole of Scadrial, but not necessarily at the magnetic north pole. These things are complicated, but just assume that it works the same way it would here on Earth.
Hold on there.
If say, Luthadel, is at the north pole (and not necessarily the magnetic one, so they're on top of the axis the planet is turning around) *and* there are seasons on said planet (meaning that the planets axis isn't completely perpendicular to the imaginary line from planet to sun), doesn't that mean that they'll have very long days in summer and very long nights in winter?
Having said that, this would allow for interesting options on how the people on the south pole did survive.
In fact, that's similar to the way things work around here on our little earth. However, a thing as days with 22 hours of sunlight in the summer but 2 hours of sunlight in the winter seems like something that would've been mentioned, so I'm probably wrong here. Thus, either a) there is an inconsistency in the Mistborn world, b) Brandon just never mentioned this in his books or c) the seasons are caused by something other than the non-perpendicularity mentioned above.
c) would be interesting. Maybe the planet goes around the sun in an egg-shape (would make winter longer than summer I guess)? Maybe the sun is hotter on one side?
P.S. I just used the word (?) non-perpendicularity. Please bow before me in awe.
I have a feeling that Rashek spun the world or took care of this somehow to put Luthadel in a much safer position--so, after he changed the world, Luthadel, or the WoA, weren't magnetic north.
That's just my guess.
You didn't get it :P It's not about being magnetic north, it's about being op top of the planet. This top is generally named "north pole".
Sorry lol, I thought what I said sort-of explained that. To me, it seems that he changed everything, including the 'top of the planet.' There were still mountains to the north of Luthadel that had snow, I think he just kind of mutated the world.
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3. A compass would work, but remember that the Final Empire is set at the north pole of Scadrial, but not necessarily at the magnetic north pole. These things are complicated, but just assume that it works the same way it would here on Earth.
Hold on there.
If say, Luthadel, is at the north pole (and not necessarily the magnetic one, so they're on top of the axis the planet is turning around) *and* there are seasons on said planet (meaning that the planets axis isn't completely perpendicular to the imaginary line from planet to sun), doesn't that mean that they'll have very long days in summer and very long nights in winter?
Having said that, this would allow for interesting options on how the people on the south pole did survive.
In fact, that's similar to the way things work around here on our little earth. However, a thing as days with 22 hours of sunlight in the summer but 2 hours of sunlight in the winter seems like something that would've been mentioned, so I'm probably wrong here. Thus, either a) there is an inconsistency in the Mistborn world, b) Brandon just never mentioned this in his books or c) the seasons are caused by something other than the non-perpendicularity mentioned above.
c) would be interesting. Maybe the planet goes around the sun in an egg-shape (would make winter longer than summer I guess)? Maybe the sun is hotter on one side?
P.S. I just used the word (?) non-perpendicularity. Please bow before me in awe.
I have a feeling that Rashek spun the world or took care of this somehow to put Luthadel in a much safer position--so, after he changed the world, Luthadel, or the WoA, weren't magnetic north.
That's just my guess.
You didn't get it :P It's not about being magnetic north, it's about being op top of the planet. This top is generally named "north pole".
Sorry lol, I thought what I said sort-of explained that. To me, it seems that he changed everything, including the 'top of the planet.' There were still mountains to the north of Luthadel that had snow, I think he just kind of mutated the world.
I assumed, when Brandon stated that Luthadel was the North Pole...that Scadrial rotated like Uranus (that is, the poles are where most planets have their equator). Doesn't have to be "mutated" just...unusual.
This means that the planet would appear, in a model, to "roll" like a ball as it spun on its axis and rotate the sun rather than appearing to spin like a wobbly top (as our Earth does).
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If that were the case, then there would never be seasons or night time on Luthadal, just 100% daylight all the time.
Since we know for a fact that night happens eventually...
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I suppose the planet just goes in an elleptical path around the sun. Would make summer shorter than winter, but hey, who notices :P
Btw, I bet that Hoid guy is actually from the 3rd Mistborn trilogy, where he's a misting that can burn one of the real temporal metals which allows time travel ;D
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Btw, I bet that Hoid guy is actually from the 3rd Mistborn trilogy, where he's a misting that can burn one of the real temporal metals which allows time travel ;D
Ha ha. That is most definitely the correct answer!
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Earth's seasons occur because the earth is tilted, so whichever half is tilted away from the sun is colder because the Sun's rays do not hit as directly. However, in the case of Scadrial, if the planet was straight up and down in relation to the sun, then you would have exactly the same amount of daylight all the time at all locations (like the equator on earth has 12 hours of day and 12 hours of night year round). In a world like this, the seasons could result from a highly elliptical orbit, where the planet's varying distance from the sun caused the seasonal changes.
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Forloc, I'm also a member, but I don't see any specific allegorical connections. What are you thinking of?
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I think the most obvious Mormon influence is all the food storage! I can't wait for someone to use TLR for an example in Sunday School...
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OK, this long weekend, I am definately going to sit down and read this entire thread, it's galling me that I don't know what's been said already.
I just find it odd that Marsh never mentions where he taps gold from, and we know that ALL inquisitors have this ability, so do they all have gold spikes for no reason other than to store health in? And wouldn't they realize the ability it gives them?
Secondly, if Atium isn't really part of the wheel, is there another feruchemical and hemalurgic metal to replace it? How would hemalurgists get the powers of gold and electrum without atium, and could feruchemists still store ages, or would the next metal give a different attribute.
Also, in one of Brandon's posts, he says something about "the three worlds," I'm guessing Opelon and Scadriel are two, and the third is the warbreaker world? With all the interest in this last topic, I'm sure it has already been discussed.
Sorry I'm turning into a lurker, I'm really busy! I'll be on more this weekend!
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OK, this long weekend, I am definately going to sit down and read this entire thread, it's galling me that I don't know what's been said already.
1. I just find it odd that Marsh never mentions where he taps gold from, and we know that ALL inquisitors have this ability, so do they all have gold spikes for no reason other than to store health in? And wouldn't they realize the ability it gives them?
2. Secondly, if Atium isn't really part of the wheel, is there another feruchemical and hemalurgic metal to replace it? How would hemalurgists get the powers of gold and electrum without atium, and could feruchemists still store ages, or would the next metal give a different attribute.
3. Also, in one of Brandon's posts, he says something about "the three worlds," I'm guessing Opelon and Scadriel are two, and the third is the warbreaker world? With all the interest in this last topic, I'm sure it has already been discussed.
Sorry I'm turning into a lurker, I'm really busy! I'll be on more this weekend!
2. That's about the speed of what I was thinking/wondering - Brandon NEEDS to answer this!
3. Yes, I'm pretty sure that's what he meant (and I think I've spotted the shards!)
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The wiki article on Mistborn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistborn) claims to know the abilities of Chromium, and Nicrosil, but they have citation needed, and I don't recall Mr. Sanderson talking about the abilities of the two, and google doesn't tell me anyting either. Can anyone confirm he actually mentioned the two abilities?
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He did, kind of, but I personally think its either wrong or lame.
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3) The last two metals are Chromium and Nicrosil. We'll reveal what they do on the Allomancy poster. Suffice it to say that in the next trilogy, the main protagonist would be a Nicrosil Misting. And, to make a Robert Jordan-type comment, what those two metals do should become obvious to the serious student of Allomancy... (It has to do with the nature of the metal groupings.)
If I read the poster correctly, and have the correlations down, these metals are the external enhancement metals.
The simplest idea is that they do to another person what Aluminum and Duralumin do to the Allomancer burning them. If this is true, then Chromium would destroy another Allomancer's metals (useful skill, that, especially in a group of Mistings fighting a Mistborn) while Nicrosil would cause the target's metals that are currently burning to be burned in a brief, intense flash. This could be used either to enhance a group of Mistings or to seriously mess up an enemy Allomancer.
Nicely done.
Ookla is right, the others don't have 1/1 correlations. But I liked this concept far too much not to use it.
In a future book series, Mistborn will also have become things of legend. The bloodlines will have become diluted to the point that there are no Mistborn, only Mistings--however, the latter are far more common. In this environment, a Nicrosil Misting could be invaluable both as an enhancer to your own team or a weapon to use against unsuspecting other Misthings.
This is essentially where it is said. Now some of us don't buy it for several reasons. It doesn't have a 1/1 correlation as BS said and yet he also said serious students of allomancy could figure it out which means he might be misleading us or we may be interpreting what he said incorrectly. It really doesn't fit with the others. *shrug*
Both AvalonCreamCorn and I agree on it.
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AvalonCreamCorn is easily digestible. Everyone agrees with it.
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Ok I am gonna be honest...cream of corn? Does that really sound appealing to you? I would've at least gone for corn pudding; my grandmother makes a mean corn pudding. Brown sugar on top, mhmm...
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Hmm, so there is confirmation... Guess I could add it to the wiki. I also think Mr. Sanderson will change the abilities in the future. If nothing else duralumin misting becoming completly useless except as hemalurgy victims sounds rather depressing.
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Actually, I have this pet theory brewing that if one were both an aluminum/duralumin Misting and a Feruchemist, some interesting effects could be achieved.
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Man I love this book and i love that all you guys analyze every aspect of it. It gives me plenty of material to fantasize about in my car during work.
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Hmm, what could a Ferucamist with aluminum/duralumin do? I thinking maybe duralumin could flare a metal charged by a ferucamist, and the duralumin burn could agument the total energy released, but aluminum seems to just make metals vanish w/o any benefits to the user.
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There hasn't been much description of how Allomancy and Feruchemy overlap, except in a very indirect way -- we know how hemalurgy reacts with the others, but not what those two do.
Q for EOUL: Will we have to wait for the next trilogy to emerge before we get the Hemalurgic and Feruchemical properties of the yet-undefined metals from those (Electrum, Aluminium, etc.), or will they be released on the chart?
(and now to wait for the WAFO/RAFO...)
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Hmm, what could a Ferucamist with aluminum/duralumin do? I thinking maybe duralumin could flare a metal charged by a ferucamist, and the duralumin burn could agument the total energy released, but aluminum seems to just make metals vanish w/o any benefits to the user.
That wouldn't work with feruchemy. Feruchemy invovles storing and releasing, what would you be storing for those powers, just because a few metals (pewter and tin) do similar things, that doesn't mean the other effects have to be even remotely similar. If you look, the effects you have guessed really wouldn't work with feruchemy at all.
I'm still wondering about my inquisitor question by the way.
Oh, and I think I've guessed the shards as well. One, I think is the Dor, whose physical body was shaped into Elantris, and the other is some sort of rest spirit, the blue lake is it's physical body.
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I'm guessing EUOL won't be answering any questions for some time now, which if you think about it is actually a good thing. I'd much rather have him writing than spending hours reading over the forum and answering our questions!
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Hmm, what could a Ferucamist with aluminum/duralumin do? I thinking maybe duralumin could flare a metal charged by a ferucamist, and the duralumin burn could agument the total energy released, but aluminum seems to just make metals vanish w/o any benefits to the user.
That wouldn't work with feruchemy. Feruchemy invovles storing and releasing, what would you be storing for those powers, just because a few metals (pewter and tin) do similar things, that doesn't mean the other effects have to be even remotely similar. If you look, the effects you have guessed really wouldn't work with feruchemy at all.
I'm still wondering about my inquisitor question by the way.
Oh, and I think I've guessed the shards as well. One, I think is the Dor, whose physical body was shaped into Elantris, and the other is some sort of rest spirit, the blue lake is it's physical body.
I agree on Dor at least - I believe that Dor manifests through the physical area.
Then I took JADDETH (the Wyrn's god) to be another shard...originally revered as a "minor god" of things underground. Obviously the Jaddeth worshippers don't see him in that light anymore. However, I think we see manifestations that strongly imply that Jaddeth is a shard which runs counter to Dor and that Jaddeth and was trying to essentially kick Dor while it was already down.
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I'm guessing EUOL won't be answering any questions for some time now, which if you think about it is actually a good thing. I'd much rather have him writing than spending hours reading over the forum and answering our questions!
He'll be back. He's still on tour. Give him time to get back and get a little caught up with things and he'll return. It was him who started this thread, afterall.
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I'm sure he missed the insane, ludicrous world of TWG whilst he was away writing over this past almost-year. He'll be back though, this place is like the mafia, once you get out... MUAHAHAHAHA.
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Ok, so I apologize if I missed it, but I'm afraid I did't have time to read more than Brandons posts here looking for this answer.
If a person has both Feruchemy, and Allomancy, it seems possible to me that a person could burn a metal such as pewter, for strength and while burning it store that enhanced strength in a pewtermind for use later. Is this possible, or did it perhaps happen and i missed it somehow. Im thinking here that if an allomancer gains say 300% strength with buring pewter then saves that enhanced strength in a pewtermind over a long time could they gain much more strength in a shorter storage time.
Also, if this is true, then could that person take the same piece of metal that his enhanced strength is stored in, and burn it for a doubled charge? or am I going way off in left field with this?
Now that I have that burning question out, Thank you Brandon for this GREAT series of books. I like many others have found you thru your being named to finish AMOL, and I think Harriet made a Rockin choice. I've read Elantris and loved it as well, and look forward to reading anything else you ever care to write. :)
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That sounds about right to me, and the only flaw I find with your burn > store > burn scenario is that I think if you were to store all the gains you got from burning a Feruchemical charge, the hunk of metal would be too large to swallow.
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Ok Question, Does a piece of metal have to be injested to be used? Or could a spike be used to fuel a power? Like the spike that was in Spook could he burn it or dd it just give him the ability to burn pewter that he had swollowed?
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Ok Question, Does a piece of metal have to be injested to be used? Or could a spike be used to fuel a power? Like the spike that was in Spook could he burn it or dd it just give him the ability to burn pewter that he had swollowed?
Spook is an allomancer, which means he can only use metals by ingesting and then burning them. He was able to use pewter (by ingesting it) because a hemalurgic spike gave him the ability.
The spike itself was not pewter (it was a sword, so I'm assuming it was steel :) ), so he couldn't burn it for pewter-like uses, anyway.
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It had to be steel, steel gives allomantic physical powers, and since it passed through a thug, it gave him pewter.
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That wouldn't work with feruchemy. Feruchemy invovles storing and releasing, what would you be storing for those powers, just because a few metals (pewter and tin) do similar things, that doesn't mean the other effects have to be even remotely similar. If you look, the effects you have guessed really wouldn't work with feruchemy at all.
I'm still wondering about my inquisitor question by the way.
Oh, and I think I've guessed the shards as well. One, I think is the Dor, whose physical body was shaped into Elantris, and the other is some sort of rest spirit, the blue lake is it's physical body.
I agree on Dor at least - I believe that Dor manifests through the physical area.
Then I took JADDETH (the Wyrn's god) to be another shard...originally revered as a "minor god" of things underground. Obviously the Jaddeth worshippers don't see him in that light anymore. However, I think we see manifestations that strongly imply that Jaddeth is a shard which runs counter to Dor and that Jaddeth and was trying to essentially kick Dor while it was already down.
Yeah, I pretty much said exactly the same thing earlier ;). When I think about it, there are striking similarities between Ruin and Jaddeth. Not that they are the same, exactly, just the "dark" side of the two "Shards" that currently govern the powers on the Elantris world. I'd be careful about considering either god "evil" since Sanderson's mythos seems to take the "two halves of a whole" approach; much like the Star Wars thing with equal-but-opposite "Sides Of The Force", the conflict between deities in Mistborn, at least, implies that each Shard has a different but equal power, and no one Shard can beat any other without outside help from...mortals.
Regardless, both Ruin and Jaddeth seem to be able to communicate with certain individuals; Ruin through spikes and Jaddeth through...whatever it is that Wyrn uses to commune with him. Jaddeth's followers, like Ruin's, don't seem to mind borrowing (stealing, more like) powers from the other side -- Derethi use Sions to communicate (albeit in secret since it's big-time hypocrisy) while Hemalurgy is all about stealing power. Also, though we don't know exactly what it is that Dakhor does to bestow power upon individuals, we know it's not pleasant.
That sounds about right to me, and the only flaw I find with your burn > store > burn scenario is that I think if you were to store all the gains you got from burning a Feruchemical charge, the hunk of metal would be too large to swallow.
Well, somehow the Lord Ruler was able to store youth (the book calls it "age", but really it's storing up youth because you grow older when you store it and become younger when you release it) in Atium and then burn the youth for an extra boost, then store the leftover youth in atium and burn that. He accomplished quite a few other feats, as well, using his combined powers to give himself limitless "Health" to heal his body back from nearly skeletal remains after some rebels tried to burn him to death. However, at certain times he apparently allowed himself to look like a weak, old man (although he was STILL burning Youth-Atium to decrease his age by about 920 years).
Not sure why he still wasn't strong enough or "healthy" enough to keep Vin from Pulling all those metals out of his body, but I guess she was just REALLY powerful thanks to the Mists...
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just finished HOA last night. oh man. it was so good. i couldnt sleep afterwards.
im a little suprised gold was never used in the second and third books. but i guess there was no use for it...?
it would probably suck to be a gold misting...
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Gold Mistings are the crazy homeless people you see on the streets of luthadel... the see what they could have been, had they not had the ability, and get depressed... It's one of those sad never-ending spirals into Allomantically-Induced Insanity...
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just finished HOA last night. oh man. it was so good. i couldnt sleep afterwards.
im a little suprised gold was never used in the second and third books. but i guess there was no use for it...?
it would probably suck to be a gold misting...
Oh, yeah. Big time. You snap, it hurts like nothing else, and then you find out that your secret power is knowing that you could have married that gorgeous girl you wanted to ask out in High School, but never had the nerve? Not the kind of power I would want, frankly. Sometimes we are better off not knowing.
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The metal that Elend ate - I wonder if it has an alloy? Also, does Atium have a liquid and gas form?
Do allomancers (aside from pewter burners) ever get drunk from the alcohol they use to wash down their metals?
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Gold Mistings are the crazy homeless people you see on the streets of luthadel... the see what they could have been, had they not had the ability, and get depressed... It's one of those sad never-ending spirals into Allomantically-Induced Insanity...
hahaha. "should have saved that gold for something else..."
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The metal that Elend ate - I wonder if it has an alloy?
The metal is called Larasium.
I believe it was stated that Larasium alloyed with any of the other metals would make a misting. For example, if it was alloyed with pewter it would make a thug, and so on. So it seems there could be 16 different alloys of it.
I'm don't remember if this was stated by Brandon or just speculation.
But never the less, I highly doubt we'll see Larasium ever again so since Brandon has stated that there would be no Mistborn in a next trilogy.
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Oh my word. I cannot describe just how much I love HoA. It was incredible! Although I am very sad that Elend and Vin died....More so Elend, though. I have to admit, he had one awesome death. It's so similar to Kelsier's, and yet El's is more HA! In-your-face Ruin/Marsh (as opposed to Kell's I am hope, you can't kill hope, and then getting half his face whacked off)...I mourn for the loss of so cool a character. And I hope that they'll both (El and Vin) be able to come back. Sometime. I don't expect it to be in one of the later trilogies, because I think they've done their part. But maybe a short story. Something for the fans. Nothing big. Just closure. I think it'd be cool.
And since I've read through this entire thread (took me a while, too), I'll say some stuff about that. Allomantic sports would ROCK! I'd love to see it. Heck, I'd love to participate in them....Of course, I've been wishing I was an Allomancer (preferably Mistborn...) since I read FE almost a year ago.
And now I have one question. It's a combination of both Atium not belonging on the chart, and the 16% deal with the mists. If there are only 16 metals, and Atium isn't REALLY one of them, how could the mistfallen be Atium mistings? If you think about it (and I'm probably analyzing this WAY too much, but oh well), there are 16 metals on the chart, not counting Atium and Malatium. Even if we don't know the replacements right now, they're there. And technically Preservation would know about the other 2 (not Chromium and Nicrosil--Atium's base replacement and alloy). So wouldn't it include those in the Allomancers Snapped due to the mist sickness? And not Atium? Because if it includes Atium, that would make it 18 metals. Not 16. And then the percentage gets all messed up.....
Does that make sense? It does in my head, but I'm not sure if I worded it correctly.
Anyway, Brandon. You're pretty much my inspiration of what to do with my writing now. I am in awe over your mad writing skills. Wow. Just...wow.
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16 was a number that Preservation used in order to let people know he was doing something. There is nothing that states exactly 1/16 of the people that fell to the mists were of each type of misting. In fact technically some of those people potentially are also mistborn and that throws off the count even more.
I have a theory about the people staying sick longer. I expect the method used by Preservation to snap the mistings doesn't mix well with Atium, hense why those people stayed sick longer. I also wonder if "Atium mistings", I quote cause this is a name given by BS and not confirmed by book, could burn any and all alloys of Atium therefore not being mistings at all but rather Atium-born.
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Oh, I know there's nothing that states that there was each kind of Misting. But there's also no evidence against thinking that....This also makes me wonder if there were Mistings in that group that were Mistings of maybe Nicrosil, or Chromium, or maybe the true External Temporal metals, but we just didn't know it--nor was it mentioned in the book--because the metals weren't discovered.
Hypothetical situation here. I'm thinking it's Chromium that's the external pairing to Duralumin. If I'm wrong, correct me. I wonder what would've happened if, at the exact moment when Vin was trying to take over Marsh, and burning Duralumin, a Chromium misting burned their metal, thus enhancing Vin's soothing. Would it have enhanced her Duralumin? So she'd in essence have a double Duralumin push? Would this have made it possible to control Marsh? What if this happened in the next trilogy, when Marsh isn't under Ruin's control, and if there WAS a Mistborn there.....Or maybe a Soother with a Hemalurgic Duralumin spike? Makes me wonder...
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"Atium mistings", I quote cause this is a name given by BS and not confirmed by book
Actually, this is the same phrase that Yomen used for himself.
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Better late than never. I finished the book last night. I loved it. The complaints I have heard, few and far between, are not within my comprehension. Near perfect!!!
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I have a theory about the people staying sick longer. I expect the method used by Preservation to snap the mistings doesn't mix well with Atium, hense why those people stayed sick longer. I also wonder if "Atium mistings", I quote cause this is a name given by BS and not confirmed by book, could burn any and all alloys of Atium therefore not being mistings at all but rather Atium-born.
The book uses both the terms "Atium misting" (it's the obvious method) and "Seer" (Yomen uses this one, and it's a very natural name for it) to describe someone who can burn only Atium.
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The metal that Elend ate - I wonder if it has an alloy?
The metal is called Larasium.
I believe it was stated that Larasium alloyed with any of the other metals would make a misting. For example, if it was alloyed with pewter it would make a thug, and so on. So it seems there could be 16 different alloys of it.
I'm don't remember if this was stated by Brandon or just speculation.
Brandon definitely confirmed it earlier in the thread.
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What ever happened to the sound sticks used by hazekillers in book one to disorient Tineyes and Mistborn?
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I have a theory about the people staying sick longer. I expect the method used by Preservation to snap the mistings doesn't mix well with Atium, hense why those people stayed sick longer. I also wonder if "Atium mistings", I quote cause this is a name given by BS and not confirmed by book, could burn any and all alloys of Atium therefore not being mistings at all but rather Atium-born.
The book uses both the terms "Atium misting" (it's the obvious method) and "Seer" (Yomen uses this one, and it's a very natural name for it) to describe someone who can burn only Atium.
I'd like to point out who wrote the book. Remember, I am the person who claims everything in the book is biased and misdirectional because BS wants it to be.
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I have a theory about the people staying sick longer. I expect the method used by Preservation to snap the mistings doesn't mix well with Atium, hense why those people stayed sick longer. I also wonder if "Atium mistings", I quote cause this is a name given by BS and not confirmed by book, could burn any and all alloys of Atium therefore not being mistings at all but rather Atium-born.
The book uses both the terms "Atium misting" (it's the obvious method) and "Seer" (Yomen uses this one, and it's a very natural name for it) to describe someone who can burn only Atium.
I'd like to point out who wrote the book. Remember, I am the person who claims everything in the book is biased and misdirectional because BS wants it to be.
Um, yeah. I'm not going to give a detailed reply to that. No point, really.
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I have a theory about the people staying sick longer. I expect the method used by Preservation to snap the mistings doesn't mix well with Atium, hense why those people stayed sick longer. I also wonder if "Atium mistings", I quote cause this is a name given by BS and not confirmed by book, could burn any and all alloys of Atium therefore not being mistings at all but rather Atium-born.
The book uses both the terms "Atium misting" (it's the obvious method) and "Seer" (Yomen uses this one, and it's a very natural name for it) to describe someone who can burn only Atium.
I'd like to point out who wrote the book. Remember, I am the person who claims everything in the book is biased and misdirectional because BS wants it to be.
Um, yeah. I'm not going to give a detailed reply to that. No point, really.
I usually hate quote in quote in quotes but I just realized that I never responded to the fact that I said not confirmed by the book. What I meant by that was the fact that no "atium misting" ever tried to burn malatium or any other atium alloy to prove that they could only burn atium.
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OK children, quit arguing. Debating is cool, but just flat out arguing is annoying.
1. If an Atium misting could also burn Malatium that would break rules already set up by the magic system and if you ever read Brandon's First Law Essay (http://brandonsanderson.com/article/40/Sandersons-First-Law) he talks about different magic systems and how they need to be set up. One of the sections talks of how systems with set rules that are strictly followed should not break those rules, so Brandon wouldn't do that.
2. The term Atium Misting and Seer ARE confirmed in the book.
3. The book inherently DOES CONFIRM that none of these "Atium Borns" exist by simple laws of the Magic system.
4. I guess if you would like to involve Hemalurgy into the argument you could make an "Atium Born" but then it wouldn't be the same thing that you are talking about.
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But Atium isn't one of the basic metals, so who says it has to follow the rules? Anyone can burn Lerasium, so I think it might makes sense that someone could burn all of the atium allows, since it's not technically part of the wheel, and malatium and atium's other alloys aren't well known, so no one has probably tested it. I think it could happen, at least it makes sense to me.
A Question, if you can use Ruin's body with allomacny, what would happen if you used Preservation's body (lerasium), in hemalurgy. What powers would a Lerasium spike bestow.
As for the shards, in the Elantris world, what if the Seons are fragmented bits of a shard? We never do get an explanation for them. Perhaps they are pieces of a subservience or servant shard, and Jaddeth is a master or ruler shard.
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I think that before Rashek stepped into the Well, atium was not connected to the allomantic system. He set up the Pits of Hathsin in order to distill Ruin's body into little chunks which he had complete control over, and he changed allomancy in order to make atium burnable with the ultimate purpose of destroying Ruin's body.
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I think that before Rashek stepped into the Well, atium was not connected to the allomantic system. He set up the Pits of Hathsin in order to distill Ruin's body into little chunks which he had complete control over, and he changed allomancy in order to make atium burnable with the ultimate purpose of destroying Ruin's body.
That is...plausible. So while changing allomancy, he also created the lerasium nuggets from the pure power of Preservation he held. No, better: those nuggets were the change, like CDs with a new program on them. There would be no natural atium mistings; all of them are descendents of the original noblemen, but with diminished powers. I like it; I had never considered that.
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Well, I'm not sure. Brandon said there are divine metals (did he say there were 16 of those?) of which atium and lerasium are two. So the metal forms already existed—but I do assume that it was Rashek who made the lerasium nuggets appear near the Well of Ascension.
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Well, I'm not sure. Brandon said there are divine metals (did he say there were 16 of those?) of which atium and lerasium are two. So the metal forms already existed—but I do assume that it was Rashek who made the lerasium nuggets appear near the Well of Ascension.
I don't think so. Here's what the epigraph in Chapter 9 says about it:
When Rashek took the power at the Well of Ascension, he became aware of certain things. Some were whispered to him by Ruin; others were granted to him as an instinctive part of the power.
One of these was an understanding of the Three Metallic Arts. He knew, for instance, that the nuggets of metal in the Chamber of Ascension would make those who ingested them into Mistborn. These were, after all, fractions of the very power in the Well itself.
That makes it sound like Rashek understood what Lerasium--already being in the Chamber--would do, rather than Rashek actually placing it there.
If that is indeed the case, then I would think Preservation itself placed the Lerasium there. Brandon already confirmed that Preservation made the Terris Prophecies, seeing the future before he imprisoned Ruin. I don't find it that much of a stretch to think that Preservation placed the Lerasium in the Chamber, waiting to create Mistborn which would, in the end, burn the atium away in the end.
As for 16 divine metals, I don't think Brandon mentioned anything like that. I don't even think he implied that there were more than two; he only said that both Ruin and Preservation had divine metals. There could be divine metal alloys, I suppose, but not necessarily more divine metal bases.
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Ah, you are right about the lerasium.
I think that when Sazed says the number 16 has more significance than just the allomantic metals, this might be a clue that there are 16 Shards. I'm guessing that also means 16 divine elements (not necessarily all metallic in nature).
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OK children, quit arguing. Debating is cool, but just flat out arguing is annoying.
1. If an Atium misting could also burn Malatium that would break rules already set up by the magic system and if you ever read Brandon's First Law Essay (http://brandonsanderson.com/article/40/Sandersons-First-Law) he talks about different magic systems and how they need to be set up. One of the sections talks of how systems with set rules that are strictly followed should not break those rules, so Brandon wouldn't do that.
2. The term Atium Misting and Seer ARE confirmed in the book.
3. The book inherently DOES CONFIRM that none of these "Atium Borns" exist by simple laws of the Magic system.
4. I guess if you would like to involve Hemalurgy into the argument you could make an "Atium Born" but then it wouldn't be the same thing that you are talking about.
First, wasn't arguing, never do.
1. As comatose said.
2. They are confirmed by people in the book, not by actions in the book. No "Atium Misting" ever tried burning Malatium and failed.
3. The book doesn't even tell all the laws of the magic system, why would you assume you know them.
4. Not involving Hemalurgy, not required.
Mok, I like where you are going with that. Yeah, I suspect Rashek made the pits very much for that reason but it makes me wonder why he didn't make it more like a typical mining operation. I know he wanted to keep things secret but at the same time, it seems a very bad method of extracting the atium. Maybe there were other things we don't know that were involved with the pits. Maybe the pits already existed(like the nuggets of Lerasium) but Rashek just learned about them when he took the well. Interesting.
I would guess there are exactly the same number of divine elements as there are shards. They said that the divine elements are representation of the shards within the world.
I wonder if Elend injesting the last piece of Lerasium ended Preservations life in a way. With no body left and his mind caught up in holding Ruin hostage and finally his power being dispersed, Preservation could no longer survive. Might be why Rashek left just a single piece as he knew.
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Preservation still had a whole lot of body left: the mists. Only the solid pieces of his body were gone, the gaseous piece was still there, and there.
I like the idea of there being 16 shards, andI really think that Seons are connected to them, or maybe are the body of one of the shards. Does anyone know if Brandon is still answering questions here, I know he's been busy with his tour and AMoL, but should I jsut try and email him?
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He's months behind on emails still probably, unless it's Ookla, Sprig, Fell or one of the others, I doubt he'll answer for a bit. At least on here, you have the advantage of your question turning into a discussion, and eventually EUOL will pop on and answer - probably with a RAFO.
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Brandon isn't back from his book tour yet, so doesn't really have time for the internet.
EDIT: It seems Brandon got home today, actually.
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So, since there was at least a year between WoA and HoA, and Vin and El were married. Were there any bundles of joy for them??
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That would have been mentioned in the book, surely.
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I would have to agree with the others that all the shards have physical representations in the world. I also suspect that they are not all metallic. That seems to be a mistborn thing.
For instance, it would not be at all surprising to discover that some of the colors (perhaps the dies?) in Warbreaker are an aspect of Austre.
Incidentally, I would like to claim precedence for suggesting 16 shards, although it really isn't a huge leap.
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Perhaps the flowers that make the dies. I forget their name (Tears of...?). But I do think they are important, they reminded me of atium. Both only occur in one place (The tears in hallendren, atium in the pits), both are crucial major resourses, and have great economic value. They seem really similar.
So, Ruin and Preservation, Jaddeth and Domi, and Austre and the Shard in the Tears perhaps?
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Well, if Austre (Austere? Haven't read warbraker) is a Shard, it's opposition could be Vivid or something like that.
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It's also quite possible we haven't met Austre's opposition, assuming Austre IS a Shard. Since Austre is the God of Idris, maybe it's opposition is the God of Kuth and Huth--since that's where Vasher's headed at the end. Or I could be completely wrong.
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Perhaps the flowers that make the dies. I forget their name (Tears of...?). But I do think they are important, they reminded me of atium. Both only occur in one place (The tears in hallendren, atium in the pits), both are crucial major resourses, and have great economic value. They seem really similar.
I think you are on to something. Brandon said something earlier in the thread to which I replied mentioning the pool outside of Elantris—this could fit just as well.
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Ok so I can finally read this thread.
I know I have been a bad fan and have only just now finished HoA. Even though I have owned it since the days of its release. give me some time to read the 33 pages of this thread and countless other pages of *spoiler* threads before I can catch up.
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Ok so I can finally read this thread.
I know I have been a bad fan and have only just now finished HoA. Even though I have owned it since the days of its release. give me some time to read the 33 pages of this thread and countless other pages of *spoiler* threads before I can catch up.
You're not a bad fan for taking a long time to read a book. You just take longer than some of us who have no life and can just sit and read through. ha ha.
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Does a shard have to have an opposing shard? It is most likely the answer is yes, but there is always the possibility... maybe there can be more than 2 shards in opposition to each other at a time...
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I don't think we can necessarily generalize from the two shards we've seen and assume that the shards always come in opposed pairs.
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Yeah I kinda doubt that "Jaddeth" is a shard, otherwise why would the Dakhor monks use the Dor? Also isn't Jaddeth just a different name for the god that Sarene and Raoden believe in?
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Yeah I kinda doubt that "Jaddeth" is a shard, otherwise why would the Dakhor monks use the Dor? Also isn't Jaddeth just a different name for the god that Sarene and Raoden believe in?
That was never really said - actually, something was even said that CONTRADICTS that.
While the religions originally split from a mother faith, worship of Jaddeth took over the seat of main deity in one branch at some unspecified point in time. Jaddeth was an older deity from an older but less powerful "pagan" religion - when they looked back at the really old "heretical" original of the great holy work about Wyrn, Jaddeth was a really minor deity of earth or underground.
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I don't think we can necessarily generalize from the two shards we've seen and assume that the shards always come in opposed pairs.
If we are to believe that the number 16 is a divine number, then we can also at least speculate Shard science based on the examples of 16 we have seen thus far(If we are assuming there are 16 Shards that is). With the Metals, there are 16 of them, each has an opposing metal, and they are grouped in fours by attribute. I don't think its a long shot to say this is a very plausible explanation for Shards as well.
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Except that Brandon says the pairing and grouping by fours aren't necessarily based on anything real but may only be how the allomancers have imperfectly classified things.
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i belive that the shards have to be represented as bodies of water, thats what the first "hero of ages" saw on his way up north to terris (i totaly blanked on his name), its what filled the well of assention, and was outside of elantris.
if we take that the pools of water are the physical manifistation of shards, i think we might be able to extrapolate that the source of the pits is infact a pool of water, but due to the nature of the pits, it goes through a geological process that turns it into the geods and atium. (i think of it as the water is leaching through the rocks and when it finds a pocket it creats a geod the same way a clam would make a pearl).
This could also tie into the flowers that make such vivid colors in warbreaker. the plants feed off the shard lake and are able to create such wonderful dies.
lastly, as far as Elantris goes, it seems to me that the Dakhor dont use Aeons, Raodin describes the bones as having intricate patterns, not recognizable Aeons (and i think that he could recognize them having become an expert in a few short weeks).
I still think Jaddeth is a shard, but there isnt much proof. however i can imagine a senario as such:
Everything on (insert planet name here) is going along just fine, then Adonalsium gets broken up into his shards and they pierce through time and space and these shards endup on diffrent planets. Poor (insert planet name here) gets hit with two shards. This causes a rift in theological doctrine those that follow Shu-Korath go with the shard in elantris and shu-dereth goes with the shard that i believe is under a mountain somewhere.
also, i think it would make sense for the shards to travel in "pairs" either because they are spiritualy bound to eachother as oposit forces or because as they go from wherever Adonalsium is into our real, the shards fracture again into two parts.
so all this is very detailed and as i have seen from other fandoms, the more detailed the theory the more likely it is to be WAY off.
please destroy it apropriatly :)
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A couple of thoughts:
I would be badly disappointed if all the shards came in pairs like in Mistborn. Having dueling gods was interesting but it would get old very quickly. It seems to me that Ruin and Preservation hung out together simply because they had to work together to create, but if there are other shards that don't need the duality to create then we have no particular reason to pair them off.
However I am not at all certain what to make of Domi, Jaddeth and the Dor. Personally, I thought it very interesting that the thing that caused the Reod was an earthquake, given where Jaddeth is supposed to live. But that's just speculation. It is possible, for instance, that the Dor is a fundamental power used to create the world which is somehow a compromise between two of the shards, but it could also just be the power of one.
However I would be very hesitant to decide that there was no truth at all in any of the religions in Elantris. How they fit together is not clear, but it seems likely that something is there. After all, in Mistborn even the Church of the Survivor wasn't completely wrong.
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Hey, has anybody else noticed that the paperback of Hero of Ages is already up for pre-order on Borders.com? I just randomly noticed that today. There's no way to zoom in on the cover though, which is a bummer because it's got Elend in his fabulous white uniform next to a thoughtful-looking Vin: http://www.borders.com/online/store/TitleDetail?sku=0765356147
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Oh, it looks cool. I wish I could see it up close. Totally fits in with the other two paperbacks.
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Looks like I'm going to be forced to buy it. I mean I planned on it anyway seeing how hardcovers don't really fit well in my book shelves and they don't look right when your collection is mainly paperbacks. doesn't mean I wont hang on to the hard cover it just means I will have two copies of the book.
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Here's a bigger cover picture:
http://www.thescifibookstore.com/fantasy_16209_0765356147_The-Hero-of-Ages-Book-Three-of-Mistborn.html
Ruggedly handsome? (I can't tell. I'm a guy.)
I like the black/white contrast, though it might have been more impressive with Vin in her black ball gown.
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Man, I love all of the covers for the paperbacks. I think this HoA one is the best of the three, because of the white/black contrast as well as the destruction in the background. It's impressive. Not as dynamic as the hardcover for HoA, but still impressive.
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I don't think he's very handsome. Honestly, he kind of reminds me of Adam Sandler in Don't Mess with the Zohan or whatever that movie was. Still, I do like the way they showed his uniform. It's almost exactly like I imagined.
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I don't think he's very handsome. Honestly, he kind of reminds me of Adam Sandler in Don't Mess with the Zohan or whatever that movie was. Still, I do like the way they showed his uniform. It's almost exactly like I imagined.
I agree... he's not looking that handsome. Not at all how I pictured him. The uniform is nice though. *shrug*
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That's about how I imagined him, though, I thought there was a bit more of a difference in their height. I always imagined Vin a good foot shorter then Elend.
I'll be buying a copy for sure.
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Is Elend's hair color right? Yeah, he's definitely supposed to be quite a bit taller than Vin.
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Here's a bigger cover picture:
http://www.thescifibookstore.com/fantasy_16209_0765356147_The-Hero-of-Ages-Book-Three-of-Mistborn.html
Ruggedly handsome? (I can't tell. I'm a guy.)
I like the black/white contrast, though it might have been more impressive with Vin in her black ball gown.
Yeah, I think the ball scene with the color contrast would have been more impressive.
I'm wondering what Brandon meant by that scene. With preservation=white and ruin=black, and with the two powers only being whole when they work together, I imagine you could go in some fairly creative directions trying to interpret it. Some of them might actually be coherent, although I've read enough literary criticism to not trust it. It just seems too obvious to say that Vin destroyed the old Empire and Elend salvaged something out of them to create a better world, thus providing an extended analogy for the whole series...
But I really don't trust a lot of literary criticism. I think I'll stop here.
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I'm wondering what Brandon meant by that scene.
I figured it was more of a commentary on their respective roles. Elend is a very visible figurehead, Vin is the shadowy assassin.
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Oddly, now I'm thinking it's a pity they didn't harvest Lord Rulers sperm before offing him. But that would make Mistborn a rather different book.
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Here's a bigger cover picture:
http://www.thescifibookstore.com/fantasy_16209_0765356147_The-Hero-of-Ages-Book-Three-of-Mistborn.html
Ruggedly handsome? (I can't tell. I'm a guy.)
I like the black/white contrast, though it might have been more impressive with Vin in her black ball gown.
Yeah, I think the ball scene with the color contrast would have been more impressive.
I'm wondering what Brandon meant by that scene. With preservation=white and ruin=black, and with the two powers only being whole when they work together, I imagine you could go in some fairly creative directions trying to interpret it. Some of them might actually be coherent, although I've read enough literary criticism to not trust it. It just seems too obvious to say that Vin destroyed the old Empire and Elend salvaged something out of them to create a better world, thus providing an extended analogy for the whole series...
But I really don't trust a lot of literary criticism. I think I'll stop here.
Antithesis is fun. ;D
By the way, I like the cover a lot. The difference in height just popped out the second I saw it.
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Here's a bigger cover picture:
http://www.thescifibookstore.com/fantasy_16209_0765356147_The-Hero-of-Ages-Book-Three-of-Mistborn.html
Ruggedly handsome? (I can't tell. I'm a guy.)
I like the black/white contrast, though it might have been more impressive with Vin in her black ball gown.
Yeah, I think the ball scene with the color contrast would have been more impressive.
I'm wondering what Brandon meant by that scene. With preservation=white and ruin=black, and with the two powers only being whole when they work together, I imagine you could go in some fairly creative directions trying to interpret it. Some of them might actually be coherent, although I've read enough literary criticism to not trust it. It just seems too obvious to say that Vin destroyed the old Empire and Elend salvaged something out of them to create a better world, thus providing an extended analogy for the whole series...
But I really don't trust a lot of literary criticism. I think I'll stop here.
Antithesis is fun. ;D
By the way, I like the cover a lot. The difference in height just popped out the second I saw it.
that is most definitly not how i pictured elend would look. infact....has anyone seen stardust? The actor who played Tristran in stardust would make a good elend i think. He can be pretty nerdy, but their is also a hardness to him...
http://images.starpulse.com/pictures/2007/07/30/previews/Charlie%20Cox-DGG-016297.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/owl4ever/starmometer4/charlie_cox.jpg
They are before and after pictures of what elend might have looked like before the epic and at the very end.
P.S Stardust (written by Neil Gaiman) is a really good book, and not too bad of a movie.
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Here's a bigger cover picture:
http://www.thescifibookstore.com/fantasy_16209_0765356147_The-Hero-of-Ages-Book-Three-of-Mistborn.html
Ruggedly handsome? (I can't tell. I'm a guy.)
I like the black/white contrast, though it might have been more impressive with Vin in her black ball gown.
Yeah, I think the ball scene with the color contrast would have been more impressive.
I'm wondering what Brandon meant by that scene. With preservation=white and ruin=black, and with the two powers only being whole when they work together, I imagine you could go in some fairly creative directions trying to interpret it. Some of them might actually be coherent, although I've read enough literary criticism to not trust it. It just seems too obvious to say that Vin destroyed the old Empire and Elend salvaged something out of them to create a better world, thus providing an extended analogy for the whole series...
But I really don't trust a lot of literary criticism. I think I'll stop here.
Antithesis is fun. ;D
By the way, I like the cover a lot. The difference in height just popped out the second I saw it.
that is most definitly not how i pictured elend would look. infact....has anyone seen stardust? The actor who played Tristran in stardust would make a good elend i think. He can be pretty nerdy, but their is also a hardness to him...
http://images.starpulse.com/pictures/2007/07/30/previews/Charlie%20Cox-DGG-016297.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/owl4ever/starmometer4/charlie_cox.jpg
They are before and after pictures of what elend might have looked like before the epic and at the very end.
P.S Stardust (written by Neil Gaiman) is a really good book, and not too bad of a movie.
Meh. I know it wasn't exactly the image that I had in my head, but it's certainly isn't bad.
Oh and yes, I loved Stardust (the movie...I haven't read the book). It's the new Princess Bride.
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Stardust...the movie was a bit different from the book in ways you can readily see (the movie seems...simplified is a good word for it).
A lot of my friends have told me that the text-only novel read strangely because the original format is illustrated and that's how it is actually meant to be consumed.
That aside...I never really envisioned Elend looking like the cover art...but it's ok.
In all honesty, I kind of wish we'd gotten more than one proper illustration of non-Vin characters!
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Just got done with the 3rd Book and I have to say that I was blown away by the entire trilogy.
I read a few pages of this thread, and I did have a theory regarding atium.
Does any one else think that the use of atium as a allomanic metal was engineered by Preservation as a way to keep Ruin's body in a constant flux, and that perhaps Preservation "replaced " the original metal with atium?
My guess is that before Ruin's imprisonment, something like silver served the original purpose that atium eventually took over.
This might help explain why silver currently has no associated abilities, but is still needed in the construction of Electrum.
What do others think?
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taggart, I have that same theory except that I guess that it was Rashek who inserted atium into the set of allomantic metals and displaced the other metal (probably silver).
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taggart, I have that same theory except that I guess that it was Rashek who inserted atium into the set of allomantic metals and displaced the other metal (probably silver).
I've thought of it as well, however I wasn't sure if it was within his limited power to do so. I'm leaning more towards preservation only because mists were required to create the large number of Seers to burn the Atium.
It could have been a joint effort, with Preservation influcing Rashek shortly after he ascended.
Hopefully this gets cleared in the next book.
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If Rashek did it, it would have to have been while he was holding the power.
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Rashek had the power of Preservation for the time he held it. He could technically do anything Preservation was capable of. From what I understood, Preservation's mind was busy keeping Ruin's mind under control. That's why Preservation's power needed a mind to control and use it. But before Rashek, there was no Atium and no Pits for the Atium to grow as far as I remember. I am of the opinion that if what believe is true, it had to be Rashek who did it.
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Just got done with the 3rd Book and I have to say that I was blown away by the entire trilogy.
I read a few pages of this thread, and I did have a theory regarding atium.
Does any one else think that the use of atium as a allomanic metal was engineered by Preservation as a way to keep Ruin's body in a constant flux, and that perhaps Preservation "replaced " the original metal with atium?
My guess is that before Ruin's imprisonment, something like silver served the original purpose that atium eventually took over.
This might help explain why silver currently has no associated abilities, but is still needed in the construction of Electrum.
What do others think?
Good point about the Silver. I was thinking along similar lines.
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Rashek had the power of Preservation for the time he held it. He could technically do anything Preservation was capable of. From what I understood, Preservation's mind was busy keeping Ruin's mind under control. That's why Preservation's power needed a mind to control and use it. But before Rashek, there was no Atium and no Pits for the Atium to grow as far as I remember. I am of the opinion that if what believe is true, it had to be Rashek who did it.
I'm pretty sure Atium existed before Rashek ascended. If I recall correctly, it was Preservation that hid Ruins body in the Pits when Ruin was first trapped. This was to weaken Ruin in order to balance the two since Preservation had become weaker as a result of creating humans and imprisoning Ruin. Rashek merely became aware about the atium during the short time he held Preservations power.
Also, it was mentioned many times in the book that the power in the well was only a fraction of Preservation's power since other portions of its power were also located in the mists, humans, and Preservations original body. If we take this one step further, I think its safe to assume that Vin's ascension was greater the Rashek's, since she took in Preservation's power located in both the mists, what was released at the well, and waht ever was released when Preservation's body died. This would also explain why she was able to become one with Ruin since they were evenly matched.
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If Rashek did it, it would have to have been while he was holding the power.
Correct!
Looking back in the book, it sounds like Preservation was responsible for the original Terris Prophecies. Perhaps Preservation had planed the entire thing in hopes of having both it and Ruin combined into a single force. Oh I can;t wait to find out.
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If Rashek did it, it would have to have been while he was holding the power.
I could see Rashek doing something like this.
You know what I really love about all of this, Keliser's attack on the pits are all the more impressive after book 3. He was essentially partially destroying a 'god.'
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You know what I really love about all of this, Keliser's attack on the pits are all the more impressive after book 3. He was essentially partially destroying a 'god.'
Eh, not really considering anyone really could have done it. What I don't understand, though, is why Ruin needed his body in metal form in order get it back. By using it it just disappeared into nothingness only to be slowly returned over centuries. I would have suspected that using it would actually give it back to Ruin in the first place. Does it mean that technically Ruin and Preservation were not in fact All Powerful and rather only had a finite amount of power that slowly regenerated over time? Something didn't quite connect for me in that Ruin couldn't find his own body, couldn't keep it from being used and needed it in solid form in order to regain it(not to mention he couldn't apparently get it himself and needed one of his spiked people to grab it for him[Otherwise he'd just collect it from the bags as they were handed out to the Atium Mistings before they could use it]). If Rashek had never mined it out of the pits, would Ruin have been able to get it at all? Was it something like the Well's power in that the person had to tap into it and then release it back to Ruin without using it? I've been quite confused on that subject for a while now.
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There were some things Ruin could do and some things Preservation could do. Ruin clearly lacked the ability to see metal so Preservation changed his body into a metal not allowing him to find it. Also the use of atium didn't give it back to Ruin it just caused more geodes in the pits. It kind of kept ruins body in a constant flux and never all there at once.
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You know what I really love about all of this, Keliser's attack on the pits are all the more impressive after book 3. He was essentially partially destroying a 'god.'
Eh, not really considering anyone really could have done it. What I don't understand, though, is why Ruin needed his body in metal form in order get it back. By using it it just disappeared into nothingness only to be slowly returned over centuries. I would have suspected that using it would actually give it back to Ruin in the first place. Does it mean that technically Ruin and Preservation were not in fact All Powerful and rather only had a finite amount of power that slowly regenerated over time? Something didn't quite connect for me in that Ruin couldn't find his own body, couldn't keep it from being used and needed it in solid form in order to regain it(not to mention he couldn't apparently get it himself and needed one of his spiked people to grab it for him[Otherwise he'd just collect it from the bags as they were handed out to the Atium Mistings before they could use it]). If Rashek had never mined it out of the pits, would Ruin have been able to get it at all? Was it something like the Well's power in that the person had to tap into it and then release it back to Ruin without using it? I've been quite confused on that subject for a while now.
These are good questions. In fact, why couldn't Ruin use it when the Kandra had their hands on it, and while Ruin controlled the Kandra?
What, in other words, would Ruin actually need to do to get his body back?
By the way, is it possible that Atium mistings could burn both the "real" temporal metal and Atium? That somehow the two have been linked?
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The question is when was Ruin ever in control of the kandra? I mean there is no accounts of this. Ruin did say something along the lines of the kandra being his least useful children or something. But as with Vin or Zane I would think that it was a limited amount of influence. Also the kandra's homeland was shielded in metal and that resisted Ruin's influence.
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There were some things Ruin could do and some things Preservation could do. Ruin clearly lacked the ability to see metal so Preservation changed his body into a metal not allowing him to find it. Also the use of atium didn't give it back to Ruin it just caused more geodes in the pits. It kind of kept ruins body in a constant flux and never all there at once.
Preservation also lacked the ability to see metal as confirmed by BS somewhere earlier in this thread(Also confirmed by Vin when she couldn't see metal after taking over Preservation's power). Metal was power and so it looked shiny when either Preservation or Ruin looked at it. Both of them also existed in solid form, hense Lerasium. The question then is what would have Ruin have HAD to do to get his body back? It seems surprisingly difficult for this exceptionally powerful being to get his body back even though he had plenty of access to large portions of it.
And all Kandra were spiked not just once, but twice. The more spikes, the stronger the influence. The Kandra were just not in a place that was easily usable by Ruin so he kind of ignored them. They were trained to pull their spikes the moment Ruin did try to control them.
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I still think that the metal reinforced homeland of the kandra blocked ruins influence. That would make sense because the first generation never left the homeland and if Ruin could enter their minds it would have eventually found out its location. That would mean that there wasn't much Ruin could do because anyone it sent into the homeland to retrieve the atium would have lost Ruins influence once they entered.
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And all Kandra were spiked not just once, but twice. The more spikes, the stronger the influence. The Kandra were just not in a place that was easily usable by Ruin so he kind of ignored them. They were trained to pull their spikes the moment Ruin did try to control them.
wait all of them? I thought it was just Oreseur, because he got TenSoon's spike. Maybe I'm just misremembering...
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No, I'm pretty sure you're right (except that you mixed up TenSoon and OreSeur). I remember that the Kandra all had one spike--giving them their gift--but TenSoon had two because he took OreSeur's.
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No, all Kandra had two spikes and Tensoon had 4. Read page 274 in the hardcover.
He now had four spikes, two Blessings, and was one of the most powerful kandra alive.
As for why Ruin never took them, I don't think he paid them too much attention cause he couldn't see them most of the time. They might have explained it but I can't recall.
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But they are controled. At the end the second gen. leader was being controlled by Ruin and was giving up the atium. I think it's just that the stash location was known only to the first gen. They revealed it to Sazed, and then the whole coup thing happened, and the second gen found out (who was already influinced as proven by the coup) and then they started giving it to ruin's people.
Or else I'm just crazy.
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Not crazy, but not necessarily correct. The corrupt Kandra could simply have not wanted to lose their power. When Ruin decided to exert his influence on the Kandra, he went all out.
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The question is when was Ruin ever in control of the kandra? I mean there is no accounts of this. Ruin did say something along the lines of the kandra being his least useful children or something. But as with Vin or Zane I would think that it was a limited amount of influence. Also the kandra's homeland was shielded in metal and that resisted Ruin's influence.
The simplest reading of the book is:
1) Ruin tried to take control of the Kandra the same way he took control of the Koloss or the Inquisitors.
2) Most of the Kandra removed their Hemalurgic spikes rather than allow themselves to be controlled.
3) The ones that didn't remove them were remote-controlled by Ruin the way Marsh, for instance, was. Somehow, though, having control over some of the Kandra did not give Ruin immediate access to his body.
These events start when TenSoon tries to strangle Sazed; that is quite clearly Ruin controlling him.
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Sazed says in the epigraphs that the kandra really were of Preservation. They managed to pull out their spikes when it counted, despite Ruin's control.
You know what I really love about all of this, Keliser's attack on the pits are all the more impressive after book 3. He was essentially partially destroying a 'god.'
Eh, not really considering anyone really could have done it. What I don't understand, though, is why Ruin needed his body in metal form in order get it back. By using it it just disappeared into nothingness only to be slowly returned over centuries. I would have suspected that using it would actually give it back to Ruin in the first place. Does it mean that technically Ruin and Preservation were not in fact All Powerful and rather only had a finite amount of power that slowly regenerated over time? Something didn't quite connect for me in that Ruin couldn't find his own body, couldn't keep it from being used and needed it in solid form in order to regain it(not to mention he couldn't apparently get it himself and needed one of his spiked people to grab it for him[Otherwise he'd just collect it from the bags as they were handed out to the Atium Mistings before they could use it]). If Rashek had never mined it out of the pits, would Ruin have been able to get it at all? Was it something like the Well's power in that the person had to tap into it and then release it back to Ruin without using it? I've been quite confused on that subject for a while now.
You know what? I just realized why Kelsier's attack on the Pits of Hathsin worked in the first place. Atium is of Ruin, but Allomancy is of Preservation. Using Allomancy on the atium geodes would, then, logically destroy the geodes. That's interesting, because it finally explains that question, which has irked me for quite some time now.
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You know what? I just realized why Kelsier's attack on the Pits of Hathsin worked in the first place. Atium is of Ruin, but Allomancy is of Preservation. Using Allomancy on the atium geodes would, then, logically destroy the geodes. That's interesting, because it finally explains that question, which has irked me for quite some time now.
Wow. That does explain it. That whole thing never really bugged me (probably because I never really thought about it), but that totally makes sense....And it makes me even more sure that Brandon is a literary genius. My gosh. To tie all of this together takes talent. And he's got it. A lot of it....I'm kind of jealous. And yet not....More in awe.
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It's those kind of epiphanies that makes the work so much fun to experience. Especially if there are too many to count. :)
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All during the theorizing process before Hero of Ages came out, I think we all were thinking a bit too hard. I had a tendency to overcomplicate things beyond recognition. We should have been thinking all in terms of Ruin and Preservation, because THAT was the elegant solution.
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I'm really happy right now. I got to go to the I.F. (Idaho Falls) signing, and ask Brandon a bunch of my questions. It was cool. And one of the things he said was quite interesting. Apparently Atium and Larasium can be alloyed with any Allomantic metal and each result is something different....I for one would like to know what each alloy would do. It would be fascinating.
I also discovered that Nicrosil can't do anything more for a person already burning Duralumin. I was slightly disappointed by this. I was hoping that if a Nicrosil misting burned Nicrosil at the same time a person burned Duralumin, it would double the effect of what was happening. Apparently not.....Interestingly enough, though, if a Soother with a Hemalurgic Duralumin spike (or with a companion who's a Nicrosil misting) came across Marsh in the next trilogy, he WOULD be able to take him over. That's cool.
Oh, and another thing I found interesting--there are Nicrosil and Chromium mistings running around at the end of HoA who have no idea that they're Allomancers, because of that mist-sickness.
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Interestingly enough, though, if a Soother with a Hemalurgic Duralumin spike (or with a companion who's a Nicrosil misting) came across Marsh in the next trilogy, he WOULD be able to take him over. That's cool.
Sazed would be able to use Ruin's power to steal that control, though, and I think he'd do so pretty quickly. He might adopt a mostly hands-off approach for managing the world, but I don't think he'd permit someone to dominate Marsh for long regardless.
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Sazed would be able to use Ruin's power to steal that control, though, and I think he'd do so pretty quickly. He might adopt a mostly hands-off approach for managing the world, but I don't think he'd permit someone to dominate Marsh for long regardless.
Maybe, but maybe not. Preservation allowed it with the Lord Ruler (although maybe he couldn't do anything about that because he was more tied up in Ruin's imprisonment...or maybe b/c he didn't really have the power to stop TLR). That was the example Brandon gave when I asked him. He said that a Duralumin/Nicrosil-enhanced Soother would be able to control Marsh, similar to how the Lord Ruler was able to (although I'm thinking TLR was significantly stronger in that area than any Mistings could possibly be in the later trilogies).....But I'm just going by what Brandon said. Since he's the author....
Anyway, you're probably right. Sazed wouldn't permit it to continue once he noticed it. My question was more if it was possible. Which it is. And I thought that was cool.
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I have a question.
Let us say that someone became a Koloss or a kandra . . . Then they managed to get a hold of Lerasium. Would they gain the powers of a Mistborn as well?
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I would guess so but I would not be surprised either way and I'll tell you why.
Koloss are human, they have just been warped by their spikes to the point of severe disfigurement. I don't see any reason why a Koloss couldn't become a mistborn. On the other hand, would you really want a Koloss with Mistborn powers?
Kandra are not human. They were transformed oh so long ago into an entirely different species that breeds true. On the other hand, they are still effected by spikes so why not Lerasium.
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Oh, I know there's nothing that states that there was each kind of Misting. But there's also no evidence against thinking that....This also makes me wonder if there were Mistings in that group that were Mistings of maybe Nicrosil, or Chromium, or maybe the true External Temporal metals, but we just didn't know it--nor was it mentioned in the book--because the metals weren't discovered.
Hypothetical situation here. I'm thinking it's Chromium that's the external pairing to Duralumin. If I'm wrong, correct me. I wonder what would've happened if, at the exact moment when Vin was trying to take over Marsh, and burning Duralumin, a Chromium misting burned their metal, thus enhancing Vin's soothing. Would it have enhanced her Duralumin? So she'd in essence have a double Duralumin push? Would this have made it possible to control Marsh? What if this happened in the next trilogy, when Marsh isn't under Ruin's control, and if there WAS a Mistborn there.....Or maybe a Soother with a Hemalurgic Duralumin spike? Makes me wonder...
I know you recently said that Brandon said that this wouldn't work, but I got to wondering how much control a Chromium misting would actually have over his/her power. I mean, if it just Enhanced indiscriminately, it wouldn't have given Vin that extra Push anyway, since I'm betting Marsh was burning Copper to block her Allomancy. Thus Marsh would receive enhanced protection equal to Vin's enhanced control.
Also, although we've only seen one example and it's not very likely that a single case generalizes so easily, I find it probable that atium alloys change the "target" of the base metal. As malatium has the effect of Gold, but can be used on someone else, an atium-brass alloy might allow a Misting to Soothe himself! Similarly Pewter and Tin could strengthen and increase the sensitivity in someone else, respectively. Copper wouldn't seem all that different, except that it would have the side-effect of shielding others from emotional Allomancy (by the way, it might do more -- such as further increase the difficulty of Pulling metals from someone else's body, but since nobody other than Vin has ever done that anyway and the Lord Ruler didn't like to burn Copper, who knows...). Atium-iron and -steel alloys would be particularly interesting. Would they allow the user to Pull a metal towards another person's center of gravity?
Of course this is all speculation and extrapolation from just one case, but it would make for some interesting additional powers, no?
...On the other hand, there's the seemingly-random distribution of effects in Feruchemy and Hemalurgy (I can't find any pattern as the metals are currently -- incorrectly, it seems -- organized). What sort of effects do Atium and Lerasium alloys have in these two forms of magic?
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If the planet is tilted a lot less than Earth, but still tilted a little, it could have seasons that aren't extreme and the day length would not be very different from summer to winter.
Also, the seasons could be due more to the distance from the sun than to the axial tilt: but that would mean that seasons would be more extreme on one pole than on the other. For example, if we assume that the Final Empire's seasons are due mostly to distance from the sun and the planet is not tilted at all (I don't remember; how much does the book talk about day length changing as the seasons progress?), then north and south poles would have summer at the same time instead of at opposite times like on Earth (our Earth is actually slightly closer to the sun during northern hemisphere winter; our seasons come mostly from axial tilt rather than sun distance).
OK, I still don't get the Luthadel-as-axial-pole thing. Whether or not the planet has tilt, if I stand in the center of Luthadel, how would I experience days and nights at all? Wouldn't the sun appear to be always a constant distance from the horizon, simply moving around the horizon as the planet spins?
Then, if I move a little away from Luthadel, I would begin to experience days and nights, but still, there wouldn't be a dramatic difference between them until I was some distance away from the pole. Also, I would not need to travel far for day and night to reverse themselves. Woudn't it be daytime in the Western Dominance at the same time as it was nighttime in the Eastern Dominance?
Assuming there is no tilt or very little tilt, we have another problem. Luthadel will get very little sunlight, since the sun will always be very near (if not below) the horizon. And if the entire populated area surrounds the pole, there would be nowhere that the sun would ever get very high above the horizon. These things would surely be hard on plants, even if it weren't for the ashfalls and mists.
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You have a lot of good points, Sarah. I'll have to think about it. You're right about the sun being at a constant distance from the horizon at the pole of a zero-degree-tilt planet.
Are we ever told about the sun being high in the sky? Maybe it does stay relatively close to the horizon when it's up—and since the planet is closer to the sun than normal, the plants get enough sunlight at that angle. (That would make everyone always have rather long shadows...) But even if there's a slight tilt, that doesn't explain why there wouldn't be a white nights/dark days phenomenon—unless you assume that the axial precession has a one-year cycle instead of our Earth's 25,765-year cycle...something which is incredibly unlikely. Maybe Rashek could have set that up, but would he have known to?
And even if you make it so the axis is pointing slightly away from the sun at all points of the orbit, how are you going to give Luthadel a sunrise and sunset? You'd have to make the planet have a significant bulge that swings around every day to block the sun.
I think that if you take all these things into account, it COULD be done, but it would be highly difficult—of course, we're definitely talking about Intelligent Design here on Rashek's part, so the extremely unlikely is possible. Also, it would make the south pole always face the sun, which would make life down there quite unlikely.
OK...let me think about this a different way.
Maybe the planet is straight up and down and night/day is entirely due to a planetary bulge blocking the sun. We know there are really tall mountains in the "north." Perhaps these mountains are the bulge.
Umm... This just isn't working very well.
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YES!!! I finally stumped Ookla! Usually, when I bring up something that seems like an obvious problem to me, Ookla quickly dismisses it with his superior knowledge and I end up feeling stupid. But today I don't have to feel stupid ... that is, unless I think about how many things I got wrong on the theory threads. (I was the one to suggest that Reen's obsidian could be significant, for instance.)
I hadn't considered the idea of planetary bulge. Perhaps that does explain the day/night cycle for Luthadel, although it seems like a stretch to me.
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Well, it would only explain it if the mountains are extremely tall (like some geographical features on Mars) and the entire area of the Final Empire doesn't take up much of an arc at the top of the planet.
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Yes, and it wouldn't feel quite like "day" and "night" as we think of them. The sun, rather than sinking, would simply move horizontally behind the mountains. The mountains would then cast an enormous shadow over the entire Final Empire - and they'd have to be tall enough to shadow a good share of the Empire's atmosphere as well, or it wouldn't be dark enough to feel like "night".
In any case, people who actually traveled up into the "northern" mountains would surely notice that there was no nighttime up there - unless, perhaps, no one ever actually has made it far enough into the mountains (or close enough to the other side of the mountain range). After all, Alendi & Rashek's journey occurred before these planetary alterations took place. Perhaps the current Terris peoples stay pretty much on the southern faces.
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Yeah, you wouldn't be able to get anywhere near a decently dark night unless the bulge was significant and also accompanied by a significantly large enough tilt and the yearly precession of the axis like I said before—which would screw up plans Brandon might have for the south pole unless people down there were living underground the whole time—or the people in the south did live in a land where the sun never set.
To get a planet to precess like that you'd need significant tidal influences from other passing planets—but the people on the planet would probably never notice the precession since if you can't see the stars you can't see the north star changing. The nearby planets would probably get pretty bright though...
Eh. The more I think about it, the less I can see this working out.
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I wish EUOL would come back to the forum and answer some more questions. But I know it's a lot to ask, with all he has to do these days. And at this point he has several dozen pages of posts to reply to - so I doubt he'll ever catch up.
I guess it serves me right for waiting to read HoA till the library finally had a copy.
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Since the planet's "spin" has little to do with magnetic polarity if the planet's core is set up a certain way, is it possible that the magnetic polarity axis is (almost?) perpendicular to the rotational axis? So it's basically Earth but with a magnetic alignment such that all compasses point to Greenwich or Utah or whatever. :D
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Oh, erm, you were saying that Luthadel was the AXIAL pole. Well, that could still work... sort of. What we think of as an Earth year is really the time it takes for our planet to make one revolution around the sun, and an Earth day is the time it takes for Earth to make approximately one rotation on its own axis (I say approximately because each time a day goes by the Earth has also moved slightly, so since I'm too lazy to figure out what it is I'm gonna say give or take a few minutes because the day is subjectively defined, and a period of 24 hours is the amount of time it takes for the sun to appear to be in roughly the same location in the sky to someone standing in roughly the same location on the ground).
If that confused you, don't worry. It's not that relevant. I just brought it up because I'm insane. God told me to.
So. We know now that some planets have shorter years than days. But since a year also changes the observed location of the sun (if we had substantially less than 365.22 days each year, we'd probably notice more), such a planet would count its years as "days" and its days as "years."
So if the planet Luthadel is on (I forget which page Brandon named the planet on) happens to revolve around the sun more than 100 times faster than it actually spins (this is definitely scientifically possible because it has been observed), Luthadel could still have days and nights as long as its axial tilt wasn't perfectly parallel to its revolution axis.
In fact, suppose the axial tilt is perpendicular to its revolution axis. That is, suppose Luthadel is actually on the north "pole" of the rotational axis, but it is also simultaneously on its equator (like Uranus, though Uranus isn't perfectly perpendicular either). This would make for "days" of exactly the same length in Luthadel. Of course, this would make for a strange time system -- a "year" would vary depending on where on the planet you were; Luthadel itself wouldn't actually have seasons in this scenario (but a slight tilt from this would allow for seasons), and the further you got from Luthadel the more volatile the seasons would get, until you started approaching the south pole.
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Seasons are milder in the Central Dominance than those of the Outer Dominances.
However, we can't forget the burnlands. They surround the entire Final Empire, which leads me to believe that they are caused by the sun's heat hitting the planet more directly. This would mean the axial pole of Scadrial is at least close to perpendicular from the astral plane. (I'm pretty sure, at least.)
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Cosmic, in order for a planet to revolve around its sun in 24 hours, it has to be EXTREMELY close to that star, so close that it would be so hot that any atmosphere would be instantly vaporized no matter how much ash and smoke was in the air.
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We are assuming that the star and planet are of similar size and shape to Earth. What if the star is smaller than the sun, but the same temperature and color? It would be easier then for a sunset and sunrise to occur. You could even get away with a very slight tilt without creating extreme solstices, providing the planet's path around the star was on an exact equatorial plane . The book does say that it rarely snowed in the central dominance, only in the mountains to the "North". Scadriel could also be larger, and have a more extreme curvature than Earth. If the mountains mentioned in the story are the exact axial center, then there would be peaks that always see the sun. If the peaks rose into the ash layer, so no one would really notice the light reflecting off of them all the time. The star would always have a very low path through the sky. If this is the case, it would tend to appear red even without ash in the sky, like a permanent sunrise or sunset. We need visuals aids.
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Just wanted to mention that Brandon confirmed on his blog that atium deserves its own allomantic table, for any who haven't or don't read it.
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It would also be possible for a planet to have a highly eliptical path which causes "seasons" due to the proximity of the planet to the star, and with a reasonably small axial tilt, the light could always have a low incidence angle. In this case, to keep the north and south poles the same (allowing life to exist on the south pole) the axial tilt of the planet could be aligned tangentially to the arc of the planet's path when it is closest to the star. This would make the two poles of the planet leaning toward the star when they are NOT closest, but also not farthest.
This would create some strange solstices, since the time which the planet spends near the sun is less than that time which it spends away (the velocity of the planet increases as it nears the star . . . see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptical_orbit for more info and read about the vis-viva equation). This orbit path would cause the planet to spend most of its time facing nearly tangentially to the star, including both the nearest and farthest parts of its path around the star. So for the north pole, summer could be when the planet is closest and when it is facing the star, fall is as the planet moves farther away, and winter is as the planet is farthest away and as it approaches the star again but is starting to face away. While for the south pole, summer would be as the planet is approaching the star and facing it and when the planet is closest, fall would be as the planet begins to move farther away is is facing away, and winter is as the planet movest farthest away from the planet and is farthest from it. Both poles would have the same progression of seasons, and if the axial tilt is enough, they could still have a day/night cycle. The seasons might not all be of the same length . . .
But I am one of the believers in the "day-night" cycle being actually due to scadrial being so close to the star that it rotated about the star very fast, and the star was just smaller than our sun. Mercury has an 88 earth-day year, so with a smaller star, it would be possible to be closer and have a fast year cycle. There are stars with very close gas giants that have been found to have "years" which are a matter of hours or days, so it is certainly possible, and if the star is small enough it could be possible for life to survive provided that its albedo is great enough due to ash-cloud cover. But that is must my opinion.
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Okay, this may have been answered before, but do metals used for feruchemy and hemalurgy need to have the same combination of metals as allomantic ones? If so, how would weapons-grade steel be used for Spook's hemalurgical spiking?
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Concerning where the empire must be placed on the planet:
We know that the empire is at one of the "poles", but we don't know whether that means magnetic or axial. Since Rashek moved the planet too close to the sun, the best place to put the people is wherever the least energy from sunlight is incident on the surface, or geometrically, where the surface of the planet is facing as little towards the sun as possible. The magnetic pole can be more or less anywhere, so it would not really affect this property, and so I'll assume that we are at the axial pole.
The only data we have regarding the climate, aside from the ash which is artificial, are: the mists take over earlier in the third book in the outer dominances; and there are burnlands surrounding the empire, which are obviously due to the sun scorching the earth there. The burnlands must be in a region that is essentially facing the sun straight-on, whereas the outer dominances should receive less sunlight farther into the day than Luthadel, since sunlight banishes the mists. Honestly, these two facts are inconsistent, since the outer dominances are adjacent to the burnlands. However, since the mists are not exactly natural, there might be another factor (like proximity to the Well of Ascension) that repels them from Luthadel, so I will discard this datum.
We also know that the day lengths are normal. If they weren't, Brandon would have to have told us, because it would have a major effect on how people live: for example, the activities of Mistborn, who are out at night, or Vin's parties in the first book, which span a period of months but always take place at night. Not to mention that the mists being out "all day" wouldn't be so much of a phenomenon if during the winter, day were essentially absent. That means that whatever region the Final Empire is in, it doesn't really change its inclination towards the sun over the course of a year (much like where most of us live, which is at a middle latitude that tilts enough to give seasons, but not enough to give really wacky hours).
One solution is for the planet's axial tilt to be zero, with the Final Empire somewhere around Greenland: very high up, less of the sun reaches the surface, but the days are all exactly twelve hours long no matter the season -- of which there wouldn't be any, since there is no tilt. Oops. We could give the planet a very small tilt, restoring the seasons a bit; because of the more extreme heat of the sun, the seasons would be exaggerated to a more familiar level, without really affecting the day lengths. The burnlands are then in a wide band around the equator, which is delimited by some combination of less sunlight and more ash.
A highly eccentric orbit is another way to create seasons: the intensity of sunlight is proportional to the inverse square of the distance to the sun, since that's how the area of a sphere is. Also proportional to the square of the distance (roughly) is the area inside the planet's orbit. Kepler's second law says that the time taken to make a certain part of the orbit is proportional to the area swept out during that time, so to get x% more sunlight during the summer, winter has to be x% longer than summer. For someone at the approximate latitude of the northern US, where the seasons are pronounced, x is about 70, so for Scadrial to have seasons of normal temperature, their summers would be about 5 months long. It would also make the seasons uniform over the whole planet, while we know that Luthadel has milder seasons, and in particular, that the outer Dominances have snow, which seems to rule out the possibility that the ash is modulating the weather around the capital (since without the ash, on a hot planet the outer dominances would bake).
My conclusion: Scadrial has a small axial tilt. Not really that exciting, but it fits the facts.
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Okay, this may have been answered before, but do metals used for feruchemy and hemalurgy need to have the same combination of metals as allomantic ones? If so, how would weapons-grade steel be used for Spook's hemalurgical spiking?
remember that its not "all or nothing." If an allomancer is burning Steel and the percentages are slightly off, the allomancer may be fine, or feel a bit sick. If its more than that bad things happen.
If the weapon-grade steel is not the exact percentage used by allomancers, it could very well be close. Spook might not be getting the full effect that pewter would normally give.
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Also, I find it far too coincidental for that spiking to truly have been by accident. Ruin had already managed to spike the boss of those Thugs, and could have convinced him to deliberately make his bodyguards' swords out of steel with exact allomantic proportions.
It could also just be that no known mix of steel is significantly superior to allomantic steel for swords and such, so that particular proportion became standard by default, though smiths may not be quite so careful about getting it exact when they're not making it for allomancers.
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http://www.qwantz.com/archive/000720.html
so I found out at a book signing that this is the real reason why TenSoon becomes a horse
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Finally got to the end, now I can post what I have learned. When Brandon came to our Borders I asked him about Chromium and Nicrosil, here's what I learned: Chromium and Nicrosil do have a 1:1 power correlation to aluminum and duralumin, the catch is that you need to come in physical contact(skin to skin) for them to work.
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the catch is that you need to come in physical contact(skin to skin) for them to work.
Oh, now that's interesting....I wonder why it's like that for those two and none of the others.
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the catch is that you need to come in physical contact(skin to skin) for them to work.
Oh, now that's interesting....I wonder why it's like that for those two and none of the others.
He said it was because he wanted to use a sense for each allomantic power : hearing thumping for Bronze, seeing lines for Iron and Steel, etc. and since he hadn't used touch yet he gave nicrosil and chromium touch.
EDITED for poor wording
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Besides, if you didn't have to touch someone to use Chromium/Nicrosil, it would unbalance the magic system, in my opinion. What good could a Mistborn do if some idiot Chromium misting pointed at him from across the room and wiped out all of his metals?
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Balance may be the real reason, but the using-different-senses thing makes a good excuse. :)
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Balance may be the real reason, but the using-different-senses thing makes a good excuse. :)
Definitely. I just wanted to make sure that there was a reason behind it--other than to balance. Because I think it's obvious that balancing the metals had something to do with it....
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He said it was because he wanted to use a sense for each allomantic power : hearing thumping for Bronze, seeing lines for Iron and Steel, etc. and since he hadn't used touch yet he gave nicrosil and chromium touch.
EDITED for poor wording
I don't know about this. I mean if he wanted a metal for the senses and these two are the touch sense then what is Tin? I mean this is a general senses enhancer. And touch is enhanced.
I would tend to lean more to balance.
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Tin, I would think, is a collection of all the senses. Same with pewter...
So the others he wanted to use specifically with other senses....
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Balance may be the real reason, but the using-different-senses thing makes a good excuse. :)
I would guess something along these lines as well.
I always wondered about how crazy those two metals were...this makes a little more sense.
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Not to open old wounds, but the Earth doesnt have a perfectly straight axis. Scadrial could be tilted on its axis and still have normal solar and lunar cycles (seasons, days & nights, etc.). Rashek also could have tilted/moved the planet so that the sun burned away the mist (as it says in one of the epigraphs), and then made it so there was a planetary bulge (or some other geographical or astronomical anomaly) to make there be days and nights that were somewhat normal.
I'm also pretty sure the kandra do have two spikes, of either iron (potency), tin (awareness), zinc (stability) or copper (presence). That being said, if the Lord Ruler used two spikes of different metals, he could have had kandra hybrids, or maybe even kandra mistings/mistborn (heh, they would literally be born in and of the mist ;D).
I also have some questions: 1:If mistborn granted powers from lerasium can control koloss/hemalurgically spiked creatures without duralumin, than why did Elend need to use it?
2:And couldnt Sazed, being partly of Preservation, create more Lerasium when the allomancy bloodlines grew weak?
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I also have some questions: 1:If mistborn granted powers from lerasium can control koloss/hemalurgically spiked creatures without duralumin, than why did Elend need to use it?
Good question. I'm guessing that Elend needed duralumin because of Ruin's influence on the hemalurgical creatures. If Ruin were still imprisoned, he would be able to control them without duralumin.
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That's a good point. I remember Brandon saying that that's why Vin couldn't take control of Marsh. Ruin's influence was too strong. But, hypothetically, if someone in a later trilogy tried to take control of him, they'd succeed because Ruin wouldn't be controlling him...
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Well, after reading through this entire thread (and getting six questions raised in my mind for every one answered... The mere idea that all of Brandon's works are entwined by the Shards is mindblowing through sheer awesome epicness), then signing up for the forums, I just had two things to say that no one has mentioned here yet.
First, one of Brandon's earlier posts implies that anyone can burn atium, much like anyone can burn Lerasium. It was something along the lines of "all Obligators who weren't Mistings or Mistborn were given atium and stressed until their bodies burned it." It may, of course, have been a typo, but that would certainly be a twist.
Second, as for the other four Shards: Why has no one mentioned the Iridescent Tones (or whatever their name was), the things that send the Returned back? Lightsong's eventual remembrance of his time on the other side implies that there is an actual sentient power there. Let me get the quote.
The God King in prison. Lightsong had seen that too. But above it all, he remembered standing on the other side of a brilliant, colorful wave of light, looking down at the world from the other side. And seeing everything he loved dissolve into the destruction of war. A war greater than any the world had known, a war more deadly--even--than the Manywar.
He remembered the other side. And he remembered a voice, calm and comforting, offering him an opportunity.
To Return.
I would be surprised if it turns out it isn't a Shard, actually.
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First, one of Brandon's earlier posts implies that anyone can burn atium, much like anyone can burn Lerasium. It was something along the lines of "all Obligators who weren't Mistings or Mistborn were given atium and stressed until their bodies burned it." It may, of course, have been a typo, but that would certainly be a twist.
Second, as for the other four Shards: Why has no one mentioned the Iridescent Tones (or whatever their name was), the things that send the Returned back? Lightsong's eventual remembrance of his time on the other side implies that there is an actual sentient power there. Let me get the quote.
The God King in prison. Lightsong had seen that too. But above it all, he remembered standing on the other side of a brilliant, colorful wave of light, looking down at the world from the other side. And seeing everything he loved dissolve into the destruction of war. A war greater than any the world had known, a war more deadly--even--than the Manywar.
He remembered the other side. And he remembered a voice, calm and comforting, offering him an opportunity.
To Return.
I would be surprised if it turns out it isn't a Shard, actually.
Archanon, that same idea of atium crossed my mind, but my understanding of Atium is that The Lord Ruler replaced silver from the allomantic table with atium when he had the power of Preservation. In other words, atium was changed from a everyone metal to a only-Seer's/mistborn metal.
Otherwise all of the aristocrats would've burned atium when the Steel Inquisitors "spiked" (tee hee) their drinks.
Since Sazed now holds Preservation's power, I would expect that he could change it back, thus making silver a useful metal, and atium a metal all could burn. (especially since he probably won't give his body away)
Also, about the day length, Sazed mentioned a people called the Nelazan...
"I think I have the perfect religion for you," Sazed said, his normally stoic face revealing a glimmer of eagerness. "It is called 'Trelagism,' after the god Trell. Trell was worshiped by a group known as the Nelazan, a people who lived far to the north. In their land, the day and night cycle was very odd. During some months of the year, it was dark for most of the day. During the summer however, it only grew dark for a few hours at a time."
Final Empire, hardback, pg 156
This shows that days in Luthadal are somewhat normal, because Saxed finds it strange to have long days and short nights. This means that Luthadal is pretty far away from the north pole.
Zas
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Also, about the day length, Sazed mentioned a people called the Nelazan...
"I think I have the perfect religion for you," Sazed said, his normally stoic face revealing a glimmer of eagerness. "It is called 'Trelagism,' after the god Trell. Trell was worshiped by a group known as the Nelazan, a people who lived far to the north. In their land, the day and night cycle was very odd. During some months of the year, it was dark for most of the day. During the summer however, it only grew dark for a few hours at a time."
Final Empire, hardback, pg 156
This shows that days in Luthadal are somewhat normal, because Saxed finds it strange to have long days and short nights. This means that Luthadal is pretty far away from the north pole.
Good find, Zas! I would go a little farther and say it seems to indicate that even "the far north," where the Nelazan people lived, was not actually within the equivalent of our Arctic circle. After all, they did have at least a few hours of day during the winter and a few hours of night during the summer. In Earth terms, this sounds like about the latitude of Sweden. This, to me, would indicate that Luthadel itself (and other climates Sazed considers normal) is even further from the axial pole - perhaps the latitude of Italy or so.
But we know that's not actually true, because of this quote:
2. There is life on the other pole. I will RAFO any other questions about it, though.
3. A compass would work, but remember that the Final Empire is set at the north pole of Scadrial, but not necessarily at the magnetic north pole. These things are complicated, but just assume that it works the same way it would here on Earth.
I don't know how this all works together, unless he's talking about some kind of north pole that's neither magnetic nor axial. Maybe it's the Winnie-the-Pooh variety, simply a large stick in the ground. :)
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Well it is possible that its on the axial north pole and that the planet is tilted slightly and that it also has a wobble. With Earth, the axial tilt always points one way relative to a stationary observer somewhere in our solar system. If that tilt wobbled, it could mean the north side always points towards the sun or slightly away or anything to provide any of the necessary requirements to fulfill the observed day in the world and still have Luthadel on the north axial pole. It could even have a daily wobble that could cause day and night for Luthadel. Of course it would be cause very strange days outside of Luthadel considering you'd still have to have the planet spinning around a separate axis from the wobble.
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Here's a bigger cover picture:
http://www.thescifibookstore.com/fantasy_16209_0765356147_The-Hero-of-Ages-Book-Three-of-Mistborn.html
Ruggedly handsome? (I can't tell. I'm a guy.)
I like the black/white contrast, though it might have been more impressive with Vin in her black ball gown.
Yeah, I think the ball scene with the color contrast would have been more impressive.
I'm wondering what Brandon meant by that scene. With preservation=white and ruin=black, and with the two powers only being whole when they work together, I imagine you could go in some fairly creative directions trying to interpret it. Some of them might actually be coherent, although I've read enough literary criticism to not trust it. It just seems too obvious to say that Vin destroyed the old Empire and Elend salvaged something out of them to create a better world, thus providing an extended analogy for the whole series...
But I really don't trust a lot of literary criticism. I think I'll stop here.
Antithesis is fun. ;D
By the way, I like the cover a lot. The difference in height just popped out the second I saw it.
that is most definitly not how i pictured elend would look. infact....has anyone seen stardust? The actor who played Tristran in stardust would make a good elend i think. He can be pretty nerdy, but their is also a hardness to him...
http://images.starpulse.com/pictures/2007/07/30/previews/Charlie%20Cox-DGG-016297.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/owl4ever/starmometer4/charlie_cox.jpg
They are before and after pictures of what elend might have looked like before the epic and at the very end.
P.S Stardust (written by Neil Gaiman) is a really good book, and not too bad of a movie.
I personally like the hardback of HoA, where Vin is fighting the Inquisitors. The paperback covers seem... rushed (i only own the FE paperback, but i've seen the pictures for the WoA and that HoA picture). I see what you mean about the whole Ruin=black, Preservation=white thing, but i just think the art looks better on the hardbacks. But thats just my opinion ;)
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*cough http://www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/mb_table_v13.jpg cough* It seems silver isn't on the chart.
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Count me disappointed for a number of reasons, some of which are contained earlier in the thread. I guess this makes the Chromium and Nicrosil uses official as its the first time BS actually wrote it out. Guess there is no more guessing to be done.
Interesting with Cadmium and Cerrobend. I guess if they effect a "bubble around the allomancer" the Cadmium would make it seem like time outside of the bubble were going faster and Cerrobend would make time outside the bubble seem slower. It also explains why there was no noticable effect when Elend and Vin were burning "The Mists" because they canceled eachother out.
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Well, Cadmium can cause cancer. So, I'm wondering if Allomancers will get Cancer due to swallowing the metal.
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Research causes cancer.
I wonder if the effects are similar to tapping speed in Feruchemy, or whether it more affects those immediately around you; slowing them down or something.
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When one flares Cerrobend, does the bubble become larger or the time go faster?
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*cough http://www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/mb_table_v13.jpg cough* It seems silver isn't on the chart.
Was pure silver a metal you could burn? I thought it was just part of the alloys...
Brandon, are you guys going to put Seer under Atium and 'BIGSECRET' under Larasium? (I think the poster looks awesome BTW)
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I wouldn't think so. HOA said as much, in one of the chapters.
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I wouldn't think so. HOA said as much, in one of the chapters.
Mistborn Chapter Twenty-Three Annotation
One interesting aspect of the book that I haven't mentioned yet comes with the metal of tin. Originally, tin wasn't one of the Allomantic metals--I used silver instead. You see, I originally paired silver and pewter together, thinking that pewter had a significant amount of silver in it. Well, turns out that isn't the case. (Remember, each set of paired metals is a metal and an alloy made from it.)
My false impression on the belief that pewter is a silver/lead alloy goes back to my childhood. I remember when I used to paint lead fantasy figures that I bought at the local hobby store. One of the employees told me that they would be going up in price because the manufacturers wanted the figures to be safer. They were going to cast them out of pewter instead of lead, because pewter is much less toxic. I asked what the difference between pewter and lead was, and the employee told me that pewter is has lead PLUS silver, and that's why the figures cost more.
He meant tin, I guess. Either way, that's stayed with me for quite a long time. I soundly resisted changing silver to tin during the first drafts of the book, even when I found out the truth. The problem is, I really liked the name "Silvereye" for those who burn silver/tin. It sounds far slicker than "Tineye."
I eventually came around, however. Consistency in the magic system is more important than a single cool-sounding name. I blame Hobby Town in Lincoln Nebraska for my pains.
Unless Brandon made a big mistake (something I very much doubt), then I don't think so.
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Could you make the question a bit clearer? I'm all confuzzled today.
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Raphael-
I think that time would go faster. It might be like steel, where when you flare, you can't see more lines, you can just push on it harder.
We finally know the last metals! http://www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/mb_table_v13.jpg
Cadmium and Cerrobend.
Cadmium (Pulser) slightly 'pulls' on time in a bubble around the Allomancer stretching it and making it pass more slowly
Cerrobend (Slider) slightly 'pushes' time in a bubble around the Allomancer, compressing it, and making it pass more quickly.
But I think bubble of time is an interesting choice of words....
I glanced back at Bastille and Kaz. They were still frozen, as if time wasn't moving for them.
The bubble of strange time-shift still continued to be in force, however, so the Lens hadn't been behind that.
"Time moves differently in there," I said, looking back at the sarcophagus. It seemed unchanged, the dust hanging in the air, the lamps extinguished.
I think stepping into that circle takes you back in time to the moment he died," I said. Something like that. I'm not exactly sure
Alcatraz and the Scrivener's bones pg 225
For those that haven't read Alcatraz, what probably really happened is that the dead guy in the bubble of time broke time, so his body stays preserved.... even after over 2000 years. The text mentions that the Egyptians tried to copy him by using mummies.
Stupid mummies
BUT getting to my point,
I think that maybe a Duralumin/Nicrosil enhanced Slider (time-slower downer) might be able to do that....
Zas
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Cool!
Now, onto Atium alloys.....
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I read about half the posts and skimmed the other half and didn't see anyone ask these questions.
1) What happened to Kelsiers bones? Tensoon ate a horse, dumped Sazed off at the home land and took off with Kelsiers bones, so what happened to them??
2) When Spook had the Hemalurgy Spike was Kelsier ever talking to him or was it always Ruin? Because some of the conversations sounded like Ruin and others sounded like Kelsier.
3) Why did Kelsier decide to talk solely to Spook? Was he Mares baby brother or something??
4) Is Marsh still an inquisitor? I would think that after Kelsier requested that Spook become a Mistborn that he would say something about his brother.
5) At the end of the book Sazed, who is the Hero of Ages, was taking advice from Kelsier, so is Kelsier a god?
I just finished reading Hero of Ages today and these were a couple questions that I had. If you couldn't tell by my questions Kelsier was by far my favorite character in this series. Actually he is my favorite character in the genre. I hope he gets more screen time in future books. These were great books, can't wait to read more!
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Kelsier's dead. Sazed is somehow able to connect with him from the world of the dead, and talk to him.
Marsh is still an Inquisitor.
If I remember correctly, 2 times Kelsier spoke to Spook.
Aaaand....the other, I know not of.
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Yomen said that silver is one of those metals that allomancers didn't really like, or something along those lines, as Vin was surrounded by silver when she was a captive. I think.
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Yomen said that silver is one of those metals that allomancers didn't really like, or something along those lines, as Vin was surrounded by silver when she was a captive. I think.
Well, of course. That's because it's useless...or deadly.
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Yomen said that silver is one of those metals that allomancers didn't really like, or something along those lines, as Vin was surrounded by silver when she was a captive. I think.
Well, of course. That's because it's useless...or deadly.
He he... I wonder how many mistborn died testing new metals/alloys.
Anyway, thanks for the pic of the metals table Raphael (now i can finally recreate my own ;))
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dont know if this has been asked yet, there are too many pages for me to read through, but Sazed mentions that Human played another role, one less significant than displaying how to make koloss, but one none the less.
#1 I was just wondering what that was.
And if that answer can't be given, was it in the book?
#2 Are the elantris world and the mistborn world on the same planet?
#3. Did Zane and Kelsier have the same hemalurgic spike, if Kelsier did in fact have a spike?
#4. Just concerning the metals presented on the poster, would the time "bubble") affect the allomancer burner the metal, or just everyone/thing else?
#5. Was Kelsier's trainer a real person or was it just an illusion created by Ruin(if Kelsier had a hemalurgis spike) so that Ruin was able to train Kelsier?
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Yomen said that silver is one of those metals that allomancers didn't really like, or something along those lines, as Vin was surrounded by silver when she was a captive. I think.
Well, of course. That's because it's useless...or deadly.
Then what's your question? :P
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#2 Are the elantris world and the mistborn world on the same planet?
No. The elantris world is called Opelon and the Mistborn world is called Scadriel.
#3. Did Zane and Kelsier have the same hemalurgic spike, if Kelsier did in fact have a spike?
Kelsier did not have a hemalurgic spike. In addition, Sazed suggests that Zael may have spiked himself.
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Now the real question. Are Opelon and Mistborn in the same universe? Literally speaking, of course. How far away are the planets from eachother. That interests me greatly.
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Now the real question. Are Opelon and Mistborn in the same universe? Literally speaking, of course. How far away are the planets from eachother. That interests me greatly.
What's the alternative? A different dimension?
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Well I meant are they in the same galaxy? Like are they Earth and Mars, as opposed to an Earth and Gliese 581c?
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Now the real question. Are Opelon and Mistborn in the same universe? Literally speaking, of course. How far away are the planets from eachother. That interests me greatly.
Most of Brandon's adult fantasy books (i.e. everything except Alcatraz and Scribbler) take place in the same metaverse, which is one reason you'll see Hoid in them. I don't think Warbreaker is in the same metaverse, but I don't recall now.
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I know that, but I'm interested in the proximity of the worlds to one another. I guess I wasn't really clear on that point. :D
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Hoid does indeed appear in Warbreaker. Lightsong hires him.
Also, I find it interesting how similar Hoid and Hoed are.
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Well I meant are they in the same galaxy? Like are they Earth and Mars, as opposed to an Earth and Gliese 581c?
Ummmmm... Do you mean Solar System? Because Earth and Gliese 581c are in the same galaxy. Earth and Mars, since they orbit the same star, are in the same Solar System.
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Whatever, you know what I mean lol. :D Astronomy isn't my strong suit, but it interests me.
I'm just curious as to their distance from one another.
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Here's a totally off-topic question for Brandon:
Was preservation capable of reading minds, or was that something that couldn't be done at all in Scandrial? It would make sense that Ruin couldn't---human consciousness and sentience is of Preservation. The fact that Allomancers couldn't read minds makes it less likely, though.
Just a thought.
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I don't know this for sure, but I think that Vin would've used the power of mind reading if she had it.
But that's just my guess.
I have a question though- how did Preservation see into the future?
Zas
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I simply adore the Table of Allomantic Metals. I just thought I'd come out and say that.
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I have a question though- how did Preservation see into the future?
I believe he didn't really "see" the future, he just knew Ruin and mankind well enough to know more or less what would eventually happen.
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I simply adore the Table of Allomantic Metals. I just thought I'd come out and say that.
I agree with you. It. Is. Awesome.
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Started a reread, and came up with more inquisitor inconsistencies questions. The inquisitor Vin and Elend defeat at the beginning has only on pewter spike, which is supposedly is a new spike (for feruchemical speed) but wouldn't all inquisitors have one pewter spike for the power of gold, since all of them have this power? That and my question about the gold minds are still festering in my brain, it would be nice to get an answer, do you know Ookla?
Also the new allomantic outer enhancement metals (chromium and nicrosil), interest me greatly, especially their effect on mistborn battles (even though mistborn will apparently cease to exist eventually). Think how many times Vin was being choked by a stronger opponent. If she had had Chromium, she could have burned it as soon as they touched her, leaving them powerless. Mistborn battles could essentially become a game of tag, the first one to touch the other (on the skin) gains the advantage for the other loses all their power. What would happen if they burned it at the same time I wonder? The might start wearing gloves and face coverings to prevent this.
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I know that Brandon hasn't commented in here for ages (understandably, he is writing a book and all that), but I wanted to put my question and two cents in. (Sorry I didn't have time to read all of the pages, just twenty or so, so this doesn't interact with any recent flows in comments).
First off, question. What happened to the Terris people? Sazed thinks to himself that he's probably the last Feruchemist they have. So when he heals the world, does he give this gift back to his people? Was this question answered in the book and was I reading too fast because it was the end and I had to know what happened to everyone so I missed that small detail?
Then, as someone who lived in Provo for six years, and attended BYU at the same time that Brandon was getting his Master's, and was in the Medieval club (which has nothing to do with anything except we put on feasts for LTUE), and I never knew who he was until I moved across the country really frustrates me. I've never been to an author signing, and they occur all the time all over my old stomping grounds. No fair!
As far as the Mormon/LDS influence, I thought I saw some, but that may be my own reading lens coming through. I did almost fall off the couch laughing when it turned out the Lord Ruler had, essentially, food storage, and when I came to the line where it mentioned that he had to rotate it regularly, I about died of laughter. I just kept imagining him with his year's supply all labeled and ready, including buckets of wheat.
More importantly, I liked how Brandon included religion and questions of faith and belief and their importance/non importance on people and cultures. I feel all too often in fantasy religion is either ignored completely or ridiculed, and in the Mistborn trilogy the deeper questions of what is right and good, what is trust and why is trust so important, as well as the religious searching of Sazed to be the most compelling part of it all to me.
Also, although the ending was neither what I was expecting nor hoping for, I feel that it was truly the best ending for the book. Like in Casablanca, which has a bittersweet ending - of course part of me wants the saccharine sweetness. But a (larger) part of me recognizes that life is more complex then that, and Mistborn has been nothing if not close to real life feelings. I think that's why I found the series so compelling as a whole - there were no all good or all bad. Even Ruin and Preservation (which reminded me a lot of the skeksies (sp?) and the mystics in The Dark Crystal) have their appropriate places. And death has its' appropriate place. I don't think the ending was sad at all - just bittersweet. Of course, I do believe heartily in an afterlife, so to me as long as they're together, Vin and Elend haven't ended at all. - Just left the center stage of the storytelling narrative.
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First off, congratulations on an amazing career! I love your unique style of writing. You not only create truly unique worlds, different and separate from any other fantasy series, but you also crank books out. You have a respect and joy in writing that is rarely seen and it leads to a total devotion to your work.
I found the Mistborn Trilogy wonderful and I loved your conclusion. While I believe that, if read seperate from the rest of the series, Final Empire is the best in the trilogy, I was still in awe of Hero of Ages. The amount of threads that all tied together at the end was astounding. I find that in this aspect you are the best author that I have ever read. Anyways, I love your work and adore this trilogy. Thank you for your hard work that you have put into both your works and the finishing of Mr. Jordans’. You are truly a rare author.
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I can finally join this conversation :)
Got HoA from my library (FINALLY) on Monday. Finished it last night (this morning? LOL).
I will be reading back a ways in this thread and will catch up soon :)
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I'll tell you what mtlhddoc2. I had taken part in a good amount of the build up to the release of HoA. I mean hours and hours of theorizing back when hemalurgy was still foggy. Its funny because I did the same thing. I didn't read the book until about a month ago and I had already missed like 30 pages of this thread. I was going to read back and join the conversation but the volume of conversation is just ridiculous. Maybe someone should take a couple of these ideas that have been talked about here and make comprehensive threads that talk only about them. I would be easier to join conversation on a specific topic than reading all of the questions that people have. I'm not complaining. It is my fault that I didn't read the book right off the bat but man, this thread is jammed with good stuff.
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Maybe someone should take a couple of these ideas that have been talked about here and make comprehensive threads that talk only about them.
Well, they have created a Hoid thread and a Shards of Adonalsium thread and a few others - were there any particular topics you wanted to discuss that don't have threads yet?
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I was going to read back and join the conversation but the volume of conversation is just ridiculous.
I doubt I will read everything, more than likely, skim through. I just dont want to rehash what has already been discussed :)
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#3. Did Zane and Kelsier have the same hemalurgic spike, if Kelsier did in fact have a spike?
Kelsier did not have a hemalurgic spike. In addition, Sazed suggests that Zael may have spiked himself.
First off we don't know for sure whether or not Kelsier had a hemalurgic spike, and when I said same hemalurgic spike I meant did the two have the same type of spike, if Kelsier did indeed have a spike, not were the two using the same spike. The only reason I think that Kelsier had a hemalurgic spike is the fact that he, like Zane, had amazing control/skill with pushing and puling metals, as was shown in the battle against the inquisitor.
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I believe Brandon said Kelsier did not have a spike.
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I'm pretty sure one of the Kandra (Ten Soon or OreSeur) would have mentioned it, since they both wore his bones...
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Valid point there Qarlin. I would find it hard to believe that it would be left out of their story lines.
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I finally made it through all the pages in this thread. I HAD questions and I know I had a point that no one has made yet that I have seen,
But
Right now I can't remember then.
ARGH!!!
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Spider, I know that frustration. I've taken to actually writing down notes about what I want to post and comments I want to respond to. I'm getting nerdier by the day.
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Oh Oh
I Remembered what I wanted to ask/Say.
Somewhere in this thread Brandon said/inferred that for a time Kelsier held Preservation’s power after preservation died before it went to Vin.
I don’t remember seeing that in the book. I know Brandon has done some misdirection in subtlely saying some things so I may have missed it. Can someone point me to where it was presented to the reader?
Now my big speculation. Follow me if you can and let me know if it makes any sense. (Brandon??)
I have a theory about Ruin, Preservation, the body that fell out of the mist when “preservation” died, the prophesies and the WoT (yes I did say WoT) and how they all come together. There are holes in my theory, but maybe it will make some sense. And maybe someone can take my theory, fill in some holes and bring it together a little better since I have not read all of Brandon’s works. I have only read Elantris and the Mistborn books.
I think that “Ruin” and “Preservation” are the names of positions and that this whole 1000 year cycle (0r however many year cycle) of the prophesies are along the lines of the Wheel of Time and the Dragon reborn fighting the Dark One. Preservation being like the Dragon and Ruin being like the Dark One.
Laras may have been the original “Preservation” but that he may have perished along the way during one of the cycles of the wheel of time in this universe. Someone like Vin came along and took Laras’s place when he died. And this would role along the cycle until the next person took over “Preservation”. Ruin remaining as the same entity as the original Ati (like the Dark One has always been the same “person” while the Dragon keeps being reborn as another person). At the end of each cycle “Ruin's" prison gets renewed.
The body that fell out of the mist could have been just the latest “Preservation” just like Vin became “Preservation”. In past cycles the person that took over “Preservation” would have decided to continue the stalemate and then there would be another 1000 year (or 2000 year) cycle.
But this time Ruin was able to go farther than he ever did in the past and broke the cycle by tricking Vin into releasing him from his prison. This would be similar to the final battle in WoT. Ruin destroying the World is like the Dark One breaking out of his prison and recreating the world/universe in his own image. Vin was the final “preservation” (Dragon) that was able to FINALLY defeat “Ruin” (Dark One) by colliding with him and killing each other.
Balance…destruction and creation coming together.
Vin’s body fell out of the Mists along with Ruin's body. Both Ruin and Preservation's powers then collected into Sazed. Sazed later placed Vin's body with Eland's body. edited to denote that Ruin's body did fall out of the Air.
We come to the final battle and Vin “Preservation” won.
The combined powers of “Ruin” and “Preservation” being released at the same time were able to be combined in Sazed. They are “shards” of Adonalsium (broken pieces of a whole) and have been able to come back together.
In the ultimate scheme of the great question and answer of the universe I think all of the shards that were created when Adonalsium broke apart need to come back together as one body to reform Adonalsium.
Down the line Sazed (Laras-Ati or Ati-Laras) will need to combine with all of the other Shards to re-create Adonalsium.
Maybe, just maybe, the “Big Bang” that created the universe, was caused by (or actually caused) Adonalsium coming apart into the shards.
This is just my 2 cents…….uhm 2 dollars?
Edited to denote that Ruin's body did indeed fall from the air. I don't know how I blanked on that. Heck that was Ruin's powers came from to go into Sazed.
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I finally made it through all the pages in this thread. I HAD questions and I know I had a point that no one has made yet that I have seen,
But
Right now I can't remember then.
ARGH!!!
Ruin is tinkering with his metalminds!
(Ignore his second post...those random questions were implanted by Ruin as a clever ruse)
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I have no piercings.
Now my mental stability may be in question though......
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Oh Oh
I Remembered what I wanted to ask/Say.
Somewhere in this thread Brandon said/inferred that for a time Kelsier held Preservation’s power after preservation died before it went to Vin.
I don’t remember seeing that in the book. I know Brandon has done some misdirection in subtlely saying some things so I may have missed it. Can someone point me to where it was presented to the reader?
Now my big speculation. Follow me if you can and let me know if it makes any sense. (Brandon??)
I have a theory about Ruin, Preservation, the body that fell out of the mist when “preservation” died, the prophesies and the WoT (yes I did say WoT) and how they all come together. There are holes in my theory, but maybe it will make some sense. And maybe someone can take my theory, fill in some holes and bring it together a little better since I have not read all of Brandon’s works. I have only read Elantris and the Mistborn books.
I think that “Ruin” and “Preservation” are the names of positions and that this whole 1000 year cycle (0r however many year cycle) of the prophesies are along the lines of the Wheel of Time and the Dragon reborn fighting the Dark One. Preservation being like the Dragon and Ruin being like the Dark One.
Laras may have been the original “Preservation” but that he (I'm chosing "He") may have perished along the way during one of the cycles of the wheel of time in this universe. Someone like Vin came along and took Laras’s place when he died. And this would role along the cycle until the next person took over “Preservation”. Ruin remaining as the same entity as the original Ati (like the Dark One has always been the same “person” while the Dragon keeps being reborn as another person). At the end of each cycle “Ruin's" prison gets renewed.
The body that fell out of the mist could have been just the latest “Preservation” just like Vin became “Preservation”. In past cycles the person that took over “Preservation” would have decided to continue the stalemate and then there would be another 1000 year (or 2000 year) cycle.
But this time Ruin was able to go farther than he (Still chosing "HE") ever did in the past and broke the cycle by tricking Vin into releasing him from his prison. This would be similar to the final battle in WoT. Ruin destroying the World is like the Dark One breaking out of his prison and recreating the world/universe in his own image. Vin was the final “preservation” (Dragon) that was able to FINALLY defeat “Ruin” (Dark One) by colliding with him and killing each other.
Balance…destruction and creation coming together.
Vin’s body would have fallen out of the Mists somewher and Sazed was able to collect her body and place it with Eland. Somewhere Ruin's body could have fallen out of the Mists too if his Body, in the form of the Atium, would not have been used up by the Atium Mistings. Since he didn’t have a body, one didn’t fall out of the Mists.
We come to the final battle and Vin “Preservation” won.
The combined powers of “Ruin” and “Preservation” being released at the same time were able to be combined in Sazed. They are “shards” of Adonalsium (broken pieces of a whole) and have been able to come back together.
In the ultimate scheme of the great question and answer of the universe I think all of the shards that were created when Adonalsium broke apart need to come back together as one body to reform Adonalsium.
Down the line Sazed (Laras-Ati or Ati-Laras) will need to combine with all of the other Shards to re-create Adonalsium.
Maybe, just maybe, the “Big Bang” that created the universe, was caused by (or actually caused) Adonalsium coming apart into the shards.
This is just my 2 cents…….uhm 2 dollars?
Firstly, I do think there is a cycle of sorts, but to say its a WoT type thing, every 1000 years, I highly doubt that. I do agree that Ati and Leras were once people like Vin. That they each somehow tapped into the power of the Shards of Preservation and Ruin, and became part of that power.
One of my main problems with the whole WoT thing is that, besides that fact from seeing Brandon's interviews, that he would not do something as to reuse the idea of the Wheel, being that this Trilogy was supposed to be the opposite of many big epic fantasy stories. So far Brandon's always tried to do something not seen before.
Besides that point, there is the problem of the prophecies themselves. If what the trilogy depicts happens over and over, we would assume someone like Sazed would gather both powers each time. However, how would he lose it, if he has both. The only thing that can oppose either power, is the other power. If they are acting as one, they cannot go against each other. As in one person controlling them, not working together as they did when Ruin decided he wanted more.
And actually Ruin did have a body that fell out of the sky along with Vin. It was only mentioned once. I believe it mentioned something about a prominent nose. And I believe it was a male figure, so in this instance, yes Ruin would be a 'He'.
Also, Vin as Preservation did not "win". It was a draw. They both were equal in power, so they both died, that being how Sazed could get both. If you want to say Vin won because Ruin did not, well then yes. To me, if Vin had won, she would have still been alive, instead of plummeting from the sky.
I do like your idea of the Shards eventually coming together. My only problem with that is that it would leave all the respective books words (magic) powerless, and so far all his books magic systems revolve around these systems. So, if this is to ever happen, it will not be for a long time.
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Wielder,
Like I said I know there are plenty of holes in my theory.
Thank you for responding.
Firstly, I do think there is a cycle of sorts, but to say its a WoT type thing, every 1000 years, I highly doubt that. I do agree that Ati and Leras were once people like Vin. That they each somehow tapped into the power of the Shards of Preservation and Ruin, and became part of that power.
One of my main problems with the whole WoT thing is that, besides that fact from seeing Brandon's interviews, that he would not do something as to reuse the idea of the Wheel, being that this Trilogy was supposed to be the opposite of many big epic fantasy stories. So far Brandon's always tried to do something not seen before.
Yes a Cycle of sorts true.
I do agree with you that Brandon is doing work that others have not, so I don't believe he would have reused the idea from RJ.
Cycles have been theorized long before RJ used it in The Wheel of Time.
Besides that point, there is the problem of the prophecies themselves. If what the trilogy depicts happens over and over, we would assume someone like Sazed would gather both powers each time. However, how would he lose it, if he has both. The only thing that can oppose either power, is the other power. If they are acting as one, they cannot go against each other. As in one person controlling them, not working together as they did when Ruin decided he wanted more.
I Think that if there were any cycles that Sazed broke those cycles when he collected both powers into himself.
And actually Ruin did have a body that fell out of the sky along with Vin. It was only mentioned once. I believe it mentioned something about a prominent nose. And I believe it was a male figure, so in this instance, yes Ruin would be a 'He'.
If I remember correctly the body your are describing was the body of Preservation when it finally died after assisting Eland when he went off on his own while Vin was captured.....I don't have the book with me right now so I cannot look it up.
Also, Vin as Preservation did not "win". It was a draw. They both were equal in power, so they both died, that being how Sazed could get both. If you want to say Vin won because Ruin did not, well then yes. To me, if Vin had won, she would have still been alive, instead of plummeting from the sky.
The way I am thinking of Vin winning is that she did not let stand the stalemate of equal powers of Preservation and Ruin. She chose to attack him and destroyed him and herself. She sacraficed herself for the greater good of humanity.
I do like your idea of the Shards eventually coming together. My only problem with that is that it would leave all the respective books words (magic) powerless, and so far all his books magic systems revolve around these systems. So, if this is to ever happen, it will not be for a long time.
Oh yes, if that would be the case of the various world's shards needing to come together and then those combined shards (Sazed) needing to come together to reform Adonalsium it would indeed be a long time down the road.
If this was even remotely the case I would image Brandon needing to write various trilogies for each of the, oh lets say, 8 worlds (2 shards per world to get to the magical 16 that runs throughout the space time continuim) for the pairs of shards to combine.
Then there would need to be another set of trilogies (at the minimum) to deal with the combined 8 "Sazed" shards to battle and combine with the end chapter being Adonalsium waking after the reforming of his body.
And while I'm thinking BIG here.......
Adonalsium is just 1 of 16 beings that ARE 16 different "universes" living on another plane of existance.......
and then books about them.....
and...and....and.....
:D
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And actually Ruin did have a body that fell out of the sky along with Vin. It was only mentioned once. I believe it mentioned something about a prominent nose. And I believe it was a male figure, so in this instance, yes Ruin would be a 'He'.
If I remember correctly the body your are describing was the body of Preservation when it finally died after assisting Eland when he went off on his own while Vin was captured.....I don't have the book with me right now so I cannot look it up.
Actually, I do remember that is not true. Bodies fell from the sky twice, (well technically three times). When Elend spoke to the Mist Spirit, it was mentioned in an Epitaph by Sazed (I believe) that Leras used the last power is had as the Mist Spirit to talk to him. And that if he had stayed around longer he would have seen a body fall from the sky. That was Leras.
Later, after the battle between Vin and Ati, in 'god' forms, two bodies fell. One Vin's, the other Ati's. This is what Sazed found, and absorbed the powers from. I do not have the book on me to site pages but I am sure this is what happened.
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The body of Preservation did indeed fall into the ash after speaking with Elend.
But in the final scene, where Sazed seizes both powers, he does so by taking the mist from the body Vin and the smoke from red-headed body of Ati.
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Yet another voice agreeing that both Ati and Leras had bodies. Leras' body appeared after being killed by Ruin after he exposed himself to Elend. Ati died when Vin sacrificed herself to kill him, and both Vin's and Ati's body fell out of the sky. Ati's body is where Sazed got the power of Ruin from, just like he got preservation's power from Vin
I sense a deeper back-story here. I cannot wait to find out what it is.
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The body of Preservation did indeed fall into the ash after speaking with Elend.
But in the final scene, where Sazed seizes both powers, he does so by taking the mist from the body Vin and the smoke from red-headed body of Ati.
Oh yes!! I had a brain block for some reason on Ruin's body. Of course his fell. That is where Sazed got Ruin's power.
The Red Hair reminded me!!! D'oh!
Thanks.
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Hmm...I am wondering. Does Sazed have Ruin's body or not? My initial guess is not; the atium was all burned up. The question is though, will it reform at the Pits of Hathsin or go straight to Sazed, giving him even more power?
I would think it will reform at the Pits. After all, we need to give Marsh some way to survive until the next series. Marsh has all the abilities of the Lord Ruler, so using both the Allomantic and Feruchemical properties of atium he can live forever.
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I don't think that it will go back to the Pits. After all, Brandon has said (somewhere on here) that Sazed would probably not make more Atium.
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That reminds me:
Are we ever going to get the full table of Feruchemical and Hemalurgic properties of all 16 metals?
In particular, is Atium really the only way to steal Allomantic Temporal Powers? What category is Atium considered for the purpose of Hemalurgically stealing the ability to burn it? I believe Atium-burning is a standard ability for Inquisitors under the Lord Ruler's reign, so if it's classified as Temporal like the in-universe chart at the time of Mistborn has it* shouldn't all Inquisitors have an Atium spike? If so, why wouldn't Vin and Elend have taken that spike from the bodies of each Inquisitor they killed?
* or if Atium really just steals the ability to burn Atium, an inconsequential difference for Mistborn because I don't see the Lord Ruler caring about his Inquisitors being able to burn any of the real Temporal metals
How, exactly, are the Feruchemical abilities categorized and organized? The abilities for the Allomantic Physical metals are obviously physical, and Zinc, Copper, and Bronze are clearly mental. Brass's warmth seems a bit odd for the mental classification, though. Gold's health I could see classifying as temporal by explaining it as speeding up the body's healing processes, but it would really fit better as a physical power. Plus, if Inquisitors have gold Feruchemy and it's considered a Feruchemical temporal power, they'd need another kind of metal spike. Also, I'd be interested to know what possible Feruchemical abilities might be classified as Enhancement.
What is the logic behind which Hemalurgic metals steal which abilities? The four that steal normal human abilities make sense - the four base physical and mental metals, each stealing the physical or mental trait most appropriate for that metal given its Allomantic property (though Iron seems more of a case of being the last place available for its assigned ability). Which of the alloys steals Allomantic abilities and which steals Feruchemical abilities of the same category is inconsistent, though. For physical abilities, the external metal steals Allomancy and the internal steals Feruchemy. For mental, it's the opposite. And then you get into the enhancement metals where the base internal metal steals Allomancy... The only known Hemalurgic temporal property is really one of the god metals, so we don't have much to work on there.
Oh, I doubt it will ever come up in a book, but what Feruchemical property does Larasium store? Also, is there an Atium/Larasium alloy and what does it do for each of Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy? I'd guess it makes an Atium Misting for Allomancy, but I have no clue about the other two.
Information about the properties of all god-metal alloys would be very interesting and neat to have, too, though I suppose Brandon might want to keep those in reserve for possible "divine intervention" by Sazed in future books.
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The Atium/Larasium alloy makes Atium mistings.
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What would an atium/larasium spike do?
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So... I just finished Hero of Ages, and I have to say... this tops the tops of my all time favorite fantasy lists. I love Jordan, Goodkind, Martin, and Scott Card but at this point Sanderson moves to the top of the list. I KNOW I will buy ever single book he ever writes, if just to honor how much I loved the Mistborn series, and the honor he has for finishing the WOT.
The one thing that I found more spectacular and eerie was the HUMAN embodiments for Ruin and Preservation... how after they died they fell from the sky in HUMAN form. Even Sazed speculates on how the division of the two powers had happend in the past (reminding me a bit of the Dark Crystal, and the eventual joining of the powers of the evil/good embodiments that happened when the Dark Crystal shattered).
No other mystery in the book - not the missing two metals, not contents of Sazed's "bible" he leaves to Spook) - nothing - is as mysterious to me and interesting that the HUMAN bodies that died when the opposing gods died.
I haven't heard much from Brandon (I read every post of his in this thread) other that RAFO, but if he was so inclined to give any sort of public hint on this I would be very appreciative. Not the full answers, but some response to these theories... :)
All that I can think is that Ruin and Preservation (the physical embodiments that we saw when they died) where powerful Hemalurgist / Allomatic / Feruchemists in the past that were terrible rivals and split the powers of the natural universe in competition with each other and were dearly depressed / shocked when they realized they were equals in power and that their battle wasn't over. What followed was a eons length battle (Way, way, way before Rashek's time, hundreds of thousand or millions of years) in which these two former humans battled in near stalemate until Preservation (whatever his original human name was) came up with a plan to eventually defeat Ruin.
This first theory is discredited some because Preservation is told to have desired to create humans, and Ruin agreed in their bargain, but why are they both human when they die?
Given these thoughts, the other possibility is that Ruin and Preservation have been through this battle many times before - where there was no Hero of Ages to take the power of both and combine them as Sazed eventually did - and have embodied themselves in at least one, and perhaps many human hosts as Vin did so briefly.
Initially, Ruin and Preservation WERE natural entities and through their battles, one or more humans took over their conscience minds as they became weak (as Preservation did in these books, and as Ruin presumably had in the past) and took the power for themselves. Therefore the black haired and red hair guys that died might have been spectacular humans in the past that took over the power of Ruin and Preservation through highs and lows of the battles of these two powers had in the past.
That is until Sazed finally was able to become the Hero of the Ages and fuse both powers back together.
All in all... I am sure I will be told to RAFO... but I would like to see if Brandon would be willing to describe at least a little of why these two forces (Ruin and Preservation) who were told to have created humans.. also have human form themselves.
Nero
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Perhaps they were humans from another planet/univers, who jumped worlds with their new found god powers.
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My personal theory is that they are not human themselves, but rather shards of a human. (Adonalsium.) This would explain why they had human bodies, and yet also cover why they were in complete balance with their power. Preservation could not destroy things, as he was only a fragment of a whole being. (The fragment that just happened to be concerned entirely with preserving things.)
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It was weird that Ruin's (Ati's) body fell out of the sky, but it was Vin's body that contained the power of Preservation. It could be that they were planet-jumping shards (possibly like hoid???), and they created the humans on Scadriel, with the proper "genetic code" for the metallic arts.
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Vin drew in all of the mists and became what Leras was. (Personal thought: I keep on thinking of Ascension [Stargate series]. Hehehe. Which, really, isn't all that different. Hmm....)
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.....No other mystery in the book - not the missing two metals, not contents of Sazed's "bible" he leaves to Spook) - nothing - is as mysterious to me and interesting that the HUMAN bodies that died when the opposing gods died.
I haven't heard much from Brandon (I read every post of his in this thread) other that RAFO, but if he was so inclined to give any sort of public hint on this I would be very appreciative. Not the full answers, but some response to these theories... :)
All that I can think is that Ruin and Preservation (the physical embodiments that we saw when they died) where powerful Hemalurgist / Allomatic / Feruchemists in the past that were terrible rivals and split the powers of the natural universe in competition with each other and were dearly depressed / shocked when they realized they were equals in power and that their battle wasn't over. What followed was a eons length battle (Way, way, way before Rashek's time, hundreds of thousand or millions of years) in which these two former humans battled in near stalemate until Preservation (whatever his original human name was) came up with a plan to eventually defeat Ruin.
This first theory is discredited some because Preservation is told to have desired to create humans, and Ruin agreed in their bargain, but why are they both human when they die?
Given these thoughts, the other possibility is that Ruin and Preservation have been through this battle many times before - where there was no Hero of Ages to take the power of both and combine them as Sazed eventually did - and have embodied themselves in at least one, and perhaps many human hosts as Vin did so briefly.
Initially, Ruin and Preservation WERE natural entities and through their battles, one or more humans took over their conscience minds as they became weak (as Preservation did in these books, and as Ruin presumably had in the past) and took the power for themselves. Therefore the black haired and red hair guys that died might have been spectacular humans in the past that took over the power of Ruin and Preservation through highs and lows of the battles of these two powers had in the past.
That is until Sazed finally was able to become the Hero of the Ages and fuse both powers back together.
All in all... I am sure I will be told to RAFO... but I would like to see if Brandon would be willing to describe at least a little of why these two forces (Ruin and Preservation) who were told to have created humans.. also have human form themselves.
Nero
Hey Nero,
You are thinking along the lines of what I posted a page or so back. I feel better knowing that someone else could imaging that too.
It would be cool if Brandon was able to give us more backstory on Ati/Ruin and Leras/Preservation, but I think that will not be until the unfolding of the future trilogies.
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Whew! I finally read through this entire forum! All 43 pages of it! Firstly, to reiterate what almost everyone else has said already, loved the book, and the whole series too. I'd sing BS' praises more, but everyone else has done it better than IO could.
That being said, I have a question. 1/16 of those that were "Snapped" by the mists became seers, and they were ill the longest because atium was the most powerful metal, thereby apparently required more trauma to induce the Snapping. I wish I could give quotes and page numbers here, but I don't have the book with me. Anyway, I don't remember whether Sazed said this in an epigraph, or whether it was mentioned somewhere in this forum, but Preservation used the mists to Snap people in an attempt to enable Elend and Vin to better counter Ruin, but since so much of his mind and power was directly trying to counter Ruin, he wasn't able to pay enough attention to what the mists were doing, which is why the mists killed some people. My question is, if Preservation hadn't been distracted by Ruin and was better able to control the process, would those who died instead have lived and become mistborn instead. It just makes sense that if Snapping a seer required an even more intense sickness because atium was the most powerful metal, Snapping a Mistborn would require even more of one. OK, tear me apart now.
(It was Sazed, p. 534 HoA hardcover. The mists killed some people because most of Preservation's consciousness went to form Ruin's prison, kinda like a machine one turns on and leaves to do its job, then finds out it went haywire.)
BTW. Chaos, FirstChristmasSnow, and somebody else that I can't remember, I loved your signatures!
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At first, I thought that those who ended up as Seers were going to be Mistborn. And I still think that Preservation would've planned for some people to be Mistborn from the Mistsickness, so it makes sense if those who died would've been the Mistborn.
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I had a thought about the two new allomantic metals on the poster, Cadmium and Cerrobend. Would using Cadmium, in essence, allow you to move faster than other people in a similar manner to a Feruchemist who is tapping their Speed? Likewise, would Cerrobend make you move slower than everyone else as time would pass more quickly for you? If I understood this right, it would suck to be a Cerrobend Misting in a battle (although it would be handy to use while waiting for AMoL to come out!)
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I had a thought about the two new allomantic metals on the poster, Cadmium and Cerrobend. Would using Cadmium, in essence, allow you to move faster than other people in a similar manner to a Feruchemist who is tapping their Speed? Likewise, would Cerrobend make you move slower than everyone else as time would pass more quickly for you? If I understood this right, it would suck to be a Cerrobend Misting in a battle (although it would be handy to use while waiting for AMoL to come out!)
No, i dont think so, a cerrobent misting would probably move the same speed, but everyone else in the bubble would move slower, enabling the misting to defeat his nearby enemies with ease. Cadmium, however, might allow you to move faster, along with other mistings/allies in the bubble, giving a boost to them as well as yourself. They could be countered by each other, if the bubbles "overlap", making everything in the overlapped space move normally.
And i would use cadmium while waiting for AMoL, i havent read the rest of the books.
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Is it time to remove "Includes Q&A w/ Brandon" from the title of this thread? It's beginning to feel more and more misleading.
Then again, I'm still bitter that EUOL ignored all my excellent suggestions on page 46 of the Warbreaker thread. (Hey, I THOUGHT he was still looking for feedback - that's what it said in the Warbreaker draft I read!)
I always seem to be just a little too late to get in on the promised author-fan interaction. :(
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hey, i'm kind of dissapointed he hasn't been on the thread lately, but he's probably busy with AMoL
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Is it time to remove "Includes Q&A w/ Brandon" from the title of this thread? It's beginning to feel more and more misleading.
Then again, I'm still bitter that EUOL ignored all my excellent suggestions on page 46 of the Warbreaker thread. (Hey, I THOUGHT he was still looking for feedback - that's what it said in the Warbreaker draft I read!)
I always seem to be just a little too late to get in on the promised author-fan interaction. :(
Maybe instead of eating your horse, he ate your thread (LOL) ;D
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Yes, that's probably what happened. :)
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I had a thought about the two new allomantic metals on the poster, Cadmium and Cerrobend. Would using Cadmium, in essence, allow you to move faster than other people in a similar manner to a Feruchemist who is tapping their Speed? Likewise, would Cerrobend make you move slower than everyone else as time would pass more quickly for you? If I understood this right, it would suck to be a Cerrobend Misting in a battle (although it would be handy to use while waiting for AMoL to come out!)
No, i dont think so, a cerrobent misting would probably move the same speed, but everyone else in the bubble would move slower, enabling the misting to defeat his nearby enemies with ease. Cadmium, however, might allow you to move faster, along with other mistings/allies in the bubble, giving a boost to them as well as yourself. They could be countered by each other, if the bubbles "overlap", making everything in the overlapped space move normally.
And i would use cadmium while waiting for AMoL, i havent read the rest of the books.
to quote Johnny Depp, "Now you're not making any sense at all." Why would cerrobend only make the other people inside the bubble move slower, but not the person burning, while cadmium would affect everyone? It doesn't add up. No offense, but I think my theory makes more sense.
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Hey this is my first post and I'm not sure where to post it. I am also not sure if this has been talked about already, but this question has been killing me since finishing HoA. Who are the men that fall out of preservation and ruins mists. Are they people who have taken the power previously? ( if i remember correctly..The man of small stature, prominent nose, and dark hair..and the red headed guy Sazed dose not recoginize)
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At first, I thought that those who ended up as Seers were going to be Mistborn. And I still think that Preservation would've planned for some people to be Mistborn from the Mistsickness, so it makes sense if those who died would've been the Mistborn.
Yeah, I was POSSITIVE that those who were sick the longest were going to be Mistborn. I was wrong, but I didn't mind :)
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Is it time to remove "Includes Q&A w/ Brandon" from the title of this thread? It's beginning to feel more and more misleading.
Then again, I'm still bitter that EUOL ignored all my excellent suggestions on page 46 of the Warbreaker thread. (Hey, I THOUGHT he was still looking for feedback - that's what it said in the Warbreaker draft I read!)
I always seem to be just a little too late to get in on the promised author-fan interaction. :(
If there are questions Brandon hasn't answered in some fashion or another in this thread (RAFO counts as a valid answer :P), feel free to send me a list of them, and I'll get them to Brandon. Sometimes it's easier for him to take a look at a single email full of questions than to wade through a long thread. I would do it myself, but my 2-month-old doesn't like to hang out in front of the computer as much as I do, and he makes typing difficult at the moment! But if someone is willing to compile a list of questions he's missed seeing, I'll make sure it gets to him quickly.
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Hey this is my first post and I'm not sure where to post it. I am also not sure if this has been talked about already, but this question has been killing me since finishing HoA. Who are the men that fall out of preservation and ruins mists. Are they people who have taken the power previously? ( if i remember correctly..The man of small stature, prominent nose, and dark hair..and the red headed guy Sazed dose not recoginize)
It has been mentioned previously in this thread. Mostly, it's a Read And Find Out (RAFO)
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I would do it myself, but my 2-month-old doesn't like to hang out in front of the computer as much as I do, and he makes typing difficult at the moment!
And it only gets harder as they get older and do like to hang out in front of the computer as much as you. For me, my kids have moved from wanting to drool on the keyboard, to wanting to bang on the keyboard, to wanting to use the keyboard to go to their favorite web sites. ;)
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I would do it myself, but my 2-month-old doesn't like to hang out in front of the computer as much as I do, and he makes typing difficult at the moment!
And it only gets harder as they get older and do like to hang out in front of the computer as much as you. For me, my kids have moved from wanting to drool on the keyboard, to wanting to bang on the keyboard, to wanting to use the keyboard to go to their favorite web sites. ;)
I have 3 computers in the house and still find it difficult to schedule time in front of the keyboard. Between the wife and ebay, the 11 year old and the MMORPGs and the 3 year old and Webkinz/Playhouse Disney, I barely am able to muscle my way in!
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Just finished the book the other day, and I'll echo everyone else and say it was fantastic. It was very pleasant to read a fantasy series that was relatively concise and had a satisfying ending. The theology seemed to be heavily influenced by LDS thinking, but you write what you know--I didn't think that it was ineffective or inappropriate. It definitely was one of my more enjoyable reads.
I do have a few comments and questions, mostly about Marsh:
1. Holy cow, but did Marsh have it rough. I mean, yeah, everyone had a tough time with the world coming to an end and all, but this man takes the cake. Literally living through hell for the past four years, and being a prisoner in his own mind for the past two--and still having the willpower to influence events for the good when the time comes. Vin, Elend, Kelsier, and the rest of the crew definitely deserve major accolades for saving the world when it seemed all but impossible, but in my opinion, Marsh deserves the highest recognition several times over for going above and beyond. This man truly did the impossible that made everything else possible.
2. Going along with that, I'm surprised that after Vin destroyed herself along with Ruin that he didn't immediately suicide the instant that he regained full control over himself. So I guess the question is: did he regain full control after Ruin died? If he did, why didn't he immediately kill himself, as that seems to have been his fondest wish for about the past two years?
3. Whether or not he regained control of himself, I assume that he and Sazed had a long conversation after Sazed's ascension. What was said in general/specific? If I was Marsh, Sazed would have to be a pretty fast talker to convince me to want to carry on after all I'd been through.
Thanks again Brandon for the good times. I look forward to many years of enjoying your books.
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2. Going along with that, I'm surprised that after Vin destroyed herself along with Ruin that he didn't immediately suicide the instant that he regained full control over himself. So I guess the question is: did he regain full control after Ruin died? If he did, why didn't he immediately kill himself, as that seems to have been his fondest wish for about the past two years?
I don't know the answers, but here are some ideas:
1) He actually felt Ruin die. We see earlier that he can see into Ruin's mind. When Ruin died, maybe he actually knew what happened. Without the potential to be controlled, maybe he didn't feel the need to kill himself.
2) He went unconscious when Ruin died. By the time he came to, it was all over and Sazed was able to explain the new situation to him.
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If there are questions Brandon hasn't answered in some fashion or another in this thread (RAFO counts as a valid answer :P), feel free to send me a list of them, and I'll get them to Brandon.
I've just done this and e-mailed it to Brenna, so I thought I'd mention it here so that no one else starts wasting their time doing the same thing. :)
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2. Going along with that, I'm surprised that after Vin destroyed herself along with Ruin that he didn't immediately suicide the instant that he regained full control over himself. So I guess the question is: did he regain full control after Ruin died? If he did, why didn't he immediately kill himself, as that seems to have been his fondest wish for about the past two years?
I don't know the answers, but here are some ideas:
1) He actually felt Ruin die. We see earlier that he can see into Ruin's mind. When Ruin died, maybe he actually knew what happened. Without the potential to be controlled, maybe he didn't feel the need to kill himself.
2) He went unconscious when Ruin died. By the time he came to, it was all over and Sazed was able to explain the new situation to him.
Both of those are exactly what I was thinking. I thought it was along the line of number one, and the moment Sazed took the power, the two could communicate with each other.
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I had a thought about the two new allomantic metals on the poster, Cadmium and Cerrobend. Would using Cadmium, in essence, allow you to move faster than other people in a similar manner to a Feruchemist who is tapping their Speed? Likewise, would Cerrobend make you move slower than everyone else as time would pass more quickly for you? If I understood this right, it would suck to be a Cerrobend Misting in a battle (although it would be handy to use while waiting for AMoL to come out!)
No, i dont think so, a cerrobent misting would probably move the same speed, but everyone else in the bubble would move slower, enabling the misting to defeat his nearby enemies with ease. Cadmium, however, might allow you to move faster, along with other mistings/allies in the bubble, giving a boost to them as well as yourself. They could be countered by each other, if the bubbles "overlap", making everything in the overlapped space move normally.
And i would use cadmium while waiting for AMoL, i havent read the rest of the books.
to quote Johnny Depp, "Now you're not making any sense at all." Why would cerrobend only make the other people inside the bubble move slower, but not the person burning, while cadmium would affect everyone? It doesn't add up. No offense, but I think my theory makes more sense.
Hmm... good question. I will answer your question with another question: aren't the metals supposed to be beneficial to the user? If so, then why would a metal make you weaker? I suppose, if you want the effects to match, cadmium could make anyone else in the bubble faster, but then how would that be benifical in travel, like pewter, since the allomancer cannot move as fast, and the other people would exit the bubble, or not be able to go as fast as possible. Wow, that was probably zetta confusing (been playing The World Ends With You xd ;D) .
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Hmm... good question. I will answer your question with another question: aren't the metals supposed to be beneficial to the user? If so, then why would a metal make you weaker? I suppose, if you want the effects to match, cadmium could make anyone else in the bubble faster, but then how would that be benifical in travel, like pewter, since the allomancer cannot move as fast, and the other people would exit the bubble, or not be able to go as fast as possible. Wow, that was probably zetta confusing (been playing The World Ends With You xd ;D) .
Most of the metals do benefit the user, but for some mistings such as aluminum or duralumin there is no effect, either positive or negative, at all.
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Just wanted to let everyone know that I sent Brandon the file that Sarah compiled (thanks, Sarah!) and he says to tell you that he's going to work on answering the questions. Also, he wanted me to thank you all for being so awesome. So,
Thanks for being awesome, everyone! Brandon really appreciates your support. :)
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Hmm... good question. I will answer your question with another question: aren't the metals supposed to be beneficial to the user? If so, then why would a metal make you weaker? I suppose, if you want the effects to match, cadmium could make anyone else in the bubble faster, but then how would that be benifical in travel, like pewter, since the allomancer cannot move as fast, and the other people would exit the bubble, or not be able to go as fast as possible. Wow, that was probably zetta confusing (been playing The World Ends With You xd ;D) .
Most of the metals do benefit the user, but for some mistings such as aluminum or duralumin there is no effect, either positive or negative, at all.
Aluminum and duralumin could possibly have a positive effect for Mistborn or even Mistings. When burned they effectively purge all metals from an allomancers body (or a specific metal in the case of duralumin). This might also be able to clean out a poisen from the allomancers body. Much like tin can enhance both a persons sense of smell as well as thier sense of vision.
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Just wanted to let everyone know that I sent Brandon the file that Sarah compiled (thanks, Sarah!) and he says to tell you that he's going to work on answering the questions. Also, he wanted me to thank you all for being so awesome. So,
Thanks for being awesome, everyone! Brandon really appreciates your support. :)
Huzzah! *patiently waits*
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first time posting, so be gentle.
i have a few questions, that I couldn't easily find answers to on the forum, so here goes:
1) If metals were blinding to Ruin, and he couldn't read words scratched into steel, how could he alter the prophesies/knowledge contained in the Worldbringers/Keepers metalminds? Could he only alter the earring metalminds, since they pierced the body?
2) If my memory serves me, at the end of MB2, Vin sees that Zane's arms are covered with scars similar to Kelsier's, suggesting that Zane had spent time working the Pits. I never saw an expanation for why this would be. Did Straff use the Pits as a way to Snap his (illegitimate) children?
3) With Ruin destroyed, Marsh's puppeteer was gone. However, i like to think that he wouldn't feel the need to commit suicide anymore. Brandon hinted that he lives on and may reappear in future MB books. But, if God Sazed cured all genetic ailments, repaired Spook's body, and healed Cett's legs, why didn't he return Marsh to human (pre-Inquisitor) form as reward for the key role he played, and as a relief from his torment?
(Side note: I also appreciated the cleverness, or perhaps irony, of the title "Worldbringer." As the HoA and sole surviving Keeper, Sazed did indeed end up bringing the new world into being.)
I had many more questions, but thankfully EUOL and other forum members answered them (or at least blocked them with RAFO's). I look forward to reading Brandon's other works, as I'm sure to enjoy them, but also because I'm dying to understand all those posts mentioning Shards and Hoid appearing throughout his writings.
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I don't know about 1 and 3, but Vin only thought that Zane had spent time in the Pits. Actually the scars were from repeatedly cutting himself across the arms, supposedly to help quiet Ruin's voice in his head.
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Hmm... good question. I will answer your question with another question: aren't the metals supposed to be beneficial to the user? If so, then why would a metal make you weaker? I suppose, if you want the effects to match, cadmium could make anyone else in the bubble faster, but then how would that be benifical in travel, like pewter, since the allomancer cannot move as fast, and the other people would exit the bubble, or not be able to go as fast as possible. Wow, that was probably zetta confusing (been playing The World Ends With You xd ;D) .
Most of the metals do benefit the user, but for some mistings such as aluminum or duralumin there is no effect, either positive or negative, at all.
Aluminum and duralumin could possibly have a positive effect for Mistborn or even Mistings. When burned they effectively purge all metals from an allomancers body (or a specific metal in the case of duralumin). This might also be able to clean out a poisen from the allomancers body. Much like tin can enhance both a persons sense of smell as well as thier sense of vision.
The major benefit to Aluminum and Duralumin I see is the Feruchemical advantages. If one were one of the Feruchemical/Allomantic "Mistings" being able to burn Aluminum or Duralumin would give you a great advantage. (Though I still mildly wonder if Aluminum would give a positive or negative Feruchemical charge. Logically it's positive, as the metals are still burned, but the effects are Pulled away, so . . . )
The only thing funner, in my opinion, is being a Nicrosil/Chromium misting, and being able to spontaneously burn away someone else's Feruchemical charges.
I had a thought about the two new allomantic metals on the poster, Cadmium and Cerrobend. Would using Cadmium, in essence, allow you to move faster than other people in a similar manner to a Feruchemist who is tapping their Speed? Likewise, would Cerrobend make you move slower than everyone else as time would pass more quickly for you? If I understood this right, it would suck to be a Cerrobend Misting in a battle (although it would be handy to use while waiting for AMoL to come out!)
No, i dont think so, a cerrobent misting would probably move the same speed, but everyone else in the bubble would move slower, enabling the misting to defeat his nearby enemies with ease. Cadmium, however, might allow you to move faster, along with other mistings/allies in the bubble, giving a boost to them as well as yourself. They could be countered by each other, if the bubbles "overlap", making everything in the overlapped space move normally.
And i would use cadmium while waiting for AMoL, i havent read the rest of the books.
to quote Johnny Depp, "Now you're not making any sense at all." Why would cerrobend only make the other people inside the bubble move slower, but not the person burning, while cadmium would affect everyone? It doesn't add up. No offense, but I think my theory makes more sense.
Hmm... good question. I will answer your question with another question: aren't the metals supposed to be beneficial to the user? If so, then why would a metal make you weaker? I suppose, if you want the effects to match, cadmium could make anyone else in the bubble faster, but then how would that be benifical in travel, like pewter, since the allomancer cannot move as fast, and the other people would exit the bubble, or not be able to go as fast as possible. Wow, that was probably zetta confusing (been playing The World Ends With You xd ;D) .
As for Cadmium and not-Cerrobend, (Cerrobend is Trademarked.) While at first a Slider would seem more beneficial, (Extra time FTW.) the true beauty I see of a Pulser is in the teamwork. If you're a Pulser, all you have to do is get in the midst of something, slow time, and watch as your "super-fast" friends take care of anything in your bubble. Or, if the abilities compound, two Pulsers could create a pocket of super-slow time, allowing for all sorts of mischief.
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Mr. Sanderson, if you're truly interested in seeing Mistborn made into a movie, I'd suggest tracking down people who were involved with the production of The Chronicles of Riddick, which has a number of striking similarities to Mistborn. The main protagonists are an outlaw who is mentoring a young woman who has to overcome feelings of betrayal. There is prophecy concerning a warrior who will defeat an evil empire. There are some similar settings, including one scene in which a planet experiences ashfall. The villain is a god-emperor who has a power nearly identical to atium. There are a few aristocrats who come to doubt his religion and lend their aid to his downfall. There are a few interesting landscape shots of mists that caught my eye when I recently rewatched the film after finishing your trilogy.
I think you could at least sell your film rights to this wonderful story if you set an agent to the task. If you made a great pitch to David Twohy, the writer-director of the Riddick movies, who knows what might happen? Check out the movie and see what you think!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0296572/
Also, I'd love to play a Mistborn video game too! I think it lends itself well to that medium.
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Brandon's not interested in optioning movie rights to anyone he doesn't believe is self-motivated and capable of making the movie. With the Alcatraz option, the producer read the advanced reader copy of the book and liked it. He put out option feelers to Brandon. Then the producer started working with Dreamworks Animation and pitched it to them there. Then they went to option it with Brandon's agent.
So first he showed the self-motivation, and then he showed the capability. If Brandon were to approach someone himself and try to pitch it, that person wouldn't be personally motivated.
Brandon is a novel writer. Turning a book into a movie takes a lot of effort, someone to champion it. Brandon doesn't have time to direct effort into something like that. If a movie is going to get made well, someone else who really loves it and wants to do it is going to have to come to him.
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I haven't read through all of these posts, or even most of them since it is 45 pages long but I needed to post this.
I just finished Hero of Ages and needed to say thank you. Thank you Mr. Sanderson for an amazing end to an amazing series. It would have been so easy for the ending to fall short of the greatness of this series but it managed to elevate the entire experience. And so thank you.
Ok, enough fanboy gushing, time to go back and read the rest of this thread.
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Dont know if anyone mentioned this at all or not, but reading about the time manipulation bubbles, im surprised there hasnt been any sort of consideration to perhaps space manipulation? Perhaps a pairing of metals, one that can take you a certain distance in space, another which can bring certain objects to you (with interesting elements such as metal anchors preventing objects from moving and such). Another potential for metals which i initially thought could be the "two missing" metals would be ones which allow you to either simulate the metals being burned by those around you, or prevent those around you from using the effects of the metals they are burning (peter and the haitian from heroes anyone?). If these sort of mistings were around, specifically the one who could simulate the metals of others around him, it would allow a sort or "mistborn" to exist in the future world where only mistings seem to remain. Thoughts anyone?
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A "Peter" misting would be pretty cool, I must admit. I'm not sure how it would come to be in the Mistborn world, but if it would work, man, it would rock. Just get a couple different misting friends, and you'd be set. You'd just have to stay around them....which could be hard if you tried to ironpull and steelpush over long distances, but I'm sure that could be solved...somehow.
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I recently finished HOA - great book, and great ending (didn't like hearing definitively that Kelsier, Vin, and Ellend lived in the afterlife, but it was a very minor disappointment, but necessary that Sazed talk with them to explain his knowledge in the chapter headings), everything was tied together very nicely. All the clues were there for a discerning observer to notice, so all in all I really liked the ending, explained everything very logically, and without any holes.
Is it true that ANY metal piercing gave Ruin some access to a person? Or does it have to contain a hemulurgical charge?
If Sazed were to have left the rings embedded inside his body, would Ruin have had access to him?
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And caught up, that took a long time.
As I was reading I had plenty of comments and questions, most raised by other posts but since I didn't bother to write them down I can't remember most of them.
My new pet theories are both about the Shards (and might need to be restated on that thread assuming it exists at all) but they are:
1. Ruin and Preservation were not two seperate shards but in fact shards of a shard. They were in such perfect balance that it seems strange to me that they could have ever functioned without each other. I expect that the power arrived on the planet and was fractioned through some unknown event (possibly in the moment that Ati and Laras each claimed a portion of it.) This would also explain how, once there was a consiciousness in control of them they were capable of working together. But who knows, I think EUOL said something about us having met 4 shards and since I firmly believe Hoid is one, the pool is another and there is one in Warbreaker (which I have only just started reading) that leaves us only room for one in MB.
2. Hoid is a shard. I suspect that Hoid with his ability to jump worlds (or possibly ability to exist on all worlds at once) is another shard of Adonalsium, possibly even the conciousness and with his power removed he simply has no memory of what he once was. I'll admit a bit of a leap and the character could simply be like Cid for the Final Fantasy games, a nice little in joke for the author and his fans.
3. Regarding the Seers at the final battle (and in fact a number of the others who fell to the mistsickness) I seem to remember when Elend first figures out the mists snapping people he orders that metals be brought down, but then specifically lists Iron, Steel, Pewter and Tin (IIRC) I got the impression that he only felt it was necessary to get metals into the mistings who had abilities that would be useful in the battle. Really when you have very little time would you care if someone could burn copper? Or really any of the less readily useful metals? Even Zinc and Brass would be fairly useless in that situation since (as Breeze was fond of reminding us) they are not simple powers to use. They require finesse, and finesse comes from training and practice not just from having the power. As for the battle in the Kandra Homeland they had a ton of atium sitting there but did they really have big caches of any other metals? For all we know some of the soldiers (and I hope Demoux) were indeed Mistborn but without the other metals to test how would they, or we know.
Sorry those ran a little long, had a little stream of conciousness moment there.
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As a note to the poster, first off when do I get to buy a nice big glossy copy of that? Second aren't copper mistings called Smokers? on th eposter it calls them Copperclouds which is the effect but not the name. Also not loving the Aluminum/Duralumin name of Gnat though I can certainly understand it. And kind of like that Duralumin which was arguably the most potent of the true metals in the original triogy being fundamentaly useless in future books.
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And caught up, that took a long time.
As I was reading I had plenty of comments and questions, most raised by other posts but since I didn't bother to write them down I can't remember most of them.
My new pet theories are both about the Shards (and might need to be restated on that thread assuming it exists at all) but they are:
1. Ruin and Preservation were not two seperate shards but in fact shards of a shard. They were in such perfect balance that it seems strange to me that they could have ever functioned without each other. I expect that the power arrived on the planet and was fractioned through some unknown event (possibly in the moment that Ati and Laras each claimed a portion of it.) This would also explain how, once there was a consiciousness in control of them they were capable of working together. But who knows, I think EUOL said something about us having met 4 shards and since I firmly believe Hoid is one, the pool is another and there is one in Warbreaker (which I have only just started reading) that leaves us only room for one in MB.
2. Hoid is a shard. I suspect that Hoid with his ability to jump worlds (or possibly ability to exist on all worlds at once) is another shard of Adonalsium, possibly even the conciousness and with his power removed he simply has no memory of what he once was. I'll admit a bit of a leap and the character could simply be like Cid for the Final Fantasy games, a nice little in joke for the author and his fans.
3. Regarding the Seers at the final battle (and in fact a number of the others who fell to the mistsickness) I seem to remember when Elend first figures out the mists snapping people he orders that metals be brought down, but then specifically lists Iron, Steel, Pewter and Tin (IIRC) I got the impression that he only felt it was necessary to get metals into the mistings who had abilities that would be useful in the battle. Really when you have very little time would you care if someone could burn copper? Or really any of the less readily useful metals? Even Zinc and Brass would be fairly useless in that situation since (as Breeze was fond of reminding us) they are not simple powers to use. They require finesse, and finesse comes from training and practice not just from having the power. As for the battle in the Kandra Homeland they had a ton of atium sitting there but did they really have big caches of any other metals? For all we know some of the soldiers (and I hope Demoux) were indeed Mistborn but without the other metals to test how would they, or we know.
Sorry those ran a little long, had a little stream of conciousness moment there.
The things about Seer's is that we know there were Atium Mistings. Yomen was one. We also have Sazed's statements that the mists could snap ordinary people but that it was very hard and that they only got one power when they were snapped (because the power was latent but hard to access somehow). Put these two together, and it seems much more likely that the ultra-mistfallen were only Atium mistings.
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Is it true that ANY metal piercing gave Ruin some access to a person? Or does it have to contain a hemulurgical charge?
If Sazed were to have left the rings embedded inside his body, would Ruin have had access to him?
You have to kill someone with that piercing and then place it in one of the hemalurgical bind points.
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I just thought of possible hemalurgic effects of Larasium and the Atium/Larasium alloy. A Larasium spike could steal all the powers of a full mistborn, while the alloy could steal all the powers of a feruchemist, all with a single spike. Make a new Lord Ruler from a normal human with just two spikes, one Larasium and one Atium/Larasium. Simple, logical, and fits well within the established framework. Of course I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Brandon has come up with something spectacularly different for that and I still have no clue what a feruchemist could do with them, but that's my best guess so far. If Brandon ever comes back to this thread it we be nice to get a comment or two about this.
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As a note to the poster, first off when do I get to buy a nice big glossy copy of that? Second aren't copper mistings called Smokers? on th eposter it calls them Copperclouds which is the effect but not the name. Also not loving the Aluminum/Duralumin name of Gnat though I can certainly understand it. And kind of like that Duralumin which was arguably the most potent of the true metals in the original triogy being fundamentaly useless in future books.
"Copperclouds" is the term scholars apply to it, but their colloquial name is "Smokers". Similar to this is how Pewter mistings are both called Pewterarms and Thugs--Pewterarms is the scholarly term, but Thug is the common term.
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I just thought of possible hemalurgic effects of Larasium and the Atium/Larasium alloy. A Larasium spike could steal all the powers of a full mistborn, while the alloy could steal all the powers of a feruchemist, all with a single spike. Make a new Lord Ruler from a normal human with just two spikes, one Larasium and one Atium/Larasium. Simple, logical, and fits well within the established framework. Of course I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Brandon has come up with something spectacularly different for that and I still have no clue what a feruchemist could do with them, but that's my best guess so far. If Brandon ever comes back to this thread it we be nice to get a comment or two about this.
I think people here need to stop thinking of larasium as a real thing. Unlike atium, it was clearly created only once for a single purpose, is now gone, and its creator has no reason (and Brandon has said there would be no mistborn in later times) to do it again.
In terms of broad plot, the two god metals have about the same significance in Mistborn as the One Ring had in Middle Earth: they are the central object of the Big War Against Evil, but at the same time, that war is about the object, so war and object go away at the same time. It's not like there could be a sequel to The Lord of the Rings in which someone makes another One Ring to use wisely; the whole point of the Ring is that it can't be (also, Tolkien's work is all about a long-term decline in power. The Ring is a powerful thing from times long gone, and no one would have the ability to create another). Likewise, in Mistborn, the series viewed from back to front evidently turns around the struggle for the atium, and is driven by people empowered by larasium; this mirrors the conflict between the two divine entities behind the metals. The two things embody a conflict that has ended; you can't have them back now. (Also, Brandon has already described his intention to allow allomancy to decline in power, so the god metals become inappropriate for the same reason as the Ring would be in a LotR sequel.)
A corollary of all that talk is that the series looks more like Tolkien than I had thought while reading it. You can have more fun with this if you like: for example, Marsh plays part of Gollum's role (thankfully, not the gulping, sniveling part). Of course, the big points all end up different, such as what they actually do with the atium.
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Has anyone noticed that the metals poster suggests that the atium in the books was NOT atium but actually an atium/electrum alloy? The metals poster says that "pure" atium gives an expansive vision of the future and that its alloys give expanded mental and temporal effects. Now, we know that malatium was a gold alloy that had an effect very similar to gold's effect. The effect of atium shown in the book is very similar to electrum's effect—except for the time Elend burns it with duralumin, in which he gets an expansive vision of the future. It seems to me that the atium produced in the Pits of Hathsin was actually an atium/electrum alloy, which Preservation set up because he didn't want atium to be too powerful a metal. Elend's duralumin burn somehow burned off the electrum part of the alloy and gave him access to the true atium power.
This also could explain why the atium mistings took 16 days—they may have had power to burn all 16 of atium's alloys. If you gave malatium to Yomen, would he be able to burn it? Remember that atium was not originally part of the set of 16, so the rules for it are a bit different.
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Just pondering another question I was recently thinking of. So apparently if you consider the breakdown of "realms" in Mistborn there seems to be 3 major ones, the physical, the conscious, and the beyond. So most of the characters exist in the physical with their physical bodies etc. Now Vin and Sazed (and I assume Leras and Ati) lost their physical forms when they transcended into the realm of consciousness, where it appears these "minor" gods reside (like Sazed in the end), and when their power is used up or destroyed, their corporeal body re-manifests itself in the physical realm. Now my question is, I believe according to an answer Brandon gave earlier, that Sazed cant actually communicate with the beyond, hence why he cant talk to Tindwyl, so why are Kelsier, Vin, and Elend hanging around in the conscious realm, because for Sazed to be able to communicate with them, one would assume that is where they have to be, based on this "sazed cant reach the beyond" idea. And if they chose to hang out in this region, can they choose to move on to the beyond? Because it seems if Sazed cannot reach there with these "god-like" powers, how could the others, unless the power is what would actually prevent Sazed from reaching that realm. Thoughts?
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I think people here need to stop thinking of larasium as a real thing. Unlike atium, it was clearly created only once for a single purpose, is now gone, and its creator has no reason (and Brandon has said there would be no mistborn in later times) to do it again.
Why? It may never appear again, but it is most definitely a real thing and Brandon has explicitly stated that it has alloys and that those alloys have specific effects. Those effects may never be seen in canon stories, but for some people, myself included, discussing the possible full details of the magic system including those metals is interesting for its own sake even if many of those details never come into play in any book Brandon ever writes.
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Why? It may never appear again, but it is most definitely a real thing and Brandon has explicitly stated that it has alloys and that those alloys have specific effects. Those effects may never be seen in canon stories, but for some people, myself included, discussing the possible full details of the magic system including those metals is interesting for its own sake even if many of those details never come into play in any book Brandon ever writes.
So you're shipping (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Shipping) allomantic metals, then?
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Oh, I like that idea, Ook. I was looking at the poster the other day, trying to figure out how the alloys of atium would work. I didn't really get very far, mostly because the first one I tried was Electrum, and I couldn't figure it out, because it seemed like what we knew about it (atium) already did that. But your idea makes total sense. Now I think I shall go back and try to figure out the rest.
Also, in this same vein. Since Atium alloys only gives expanded mental and temporal effects, does that mean only mental and temporal metals can be alloyed with it? Or can all of them be, and even the Physical/Enhancement metals would end up being a mental/temporal effect as an alloy?
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So you're shipping (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Shipping) allomantic metals, then?
??? What does that have to do with it? I'm not trying to get two metals in a relationship with each other, I'm trying to figure out what certain metals do.
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So you're shipping (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Shipping) allomantic metals, then?
??? What does that have to do with it? I'm not trying to get two metals in a relationship with each other, I'm trying to figure out what certain metals do.
It's a pun, that's all. Some fans concoct hypothetical relationships between their favorite characters, and others here do the same with allomantic metals. Preference is given to the most exciting combinations, despite the implausibility or outright absurdity of such combinations ever occurring in "canon". Sometimes one of the partners is outrageously dominating, or at least portrayed that way, to the point that simply showing how they are the best becomes the effective goal of the whole enterprise. Insert "larasium" or "Mary Sue" into that rubric as appropriate and see how hard it is to say which posts are shipping and which are somehow more sober.
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Theorizing about the effects of larasium and atium alloys (with other metals, or with each other) is hardly shipping. You may see it as that, but it's not like it hasn't been backed by the author. There ARE other alloys. BS has said that there are, and I'm guessing that he's worked out the effects of each alloy as well. He hasn't released those though, so it's perfectly fine for fans to theorize about such effects. As much as that may sound like "shipping," it's pretty much entirely different, once you get down to the 'science' of it.
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Oh, I like that idea, Ook. I was looking at the poster the other day, trying to figure out how the alloys of atium would work. I didn't really get very far, mostly because the first one I tried was Electrum, and I couldn't figure it out, because it seemed like what we knew about it (atium) already did that. But your idea makes total sense. Now I think I shall go back and try to figure out the rest.
Also, in this same vein. Since Atium alloys only gives expanded mental and temporal effects, does that mean only mental and temporal metals can be alloyed with it? Or can all of them be, and even the Physical/Enhancement metals would end up being a mental/temporal effect as an alloy?
Interesting... it would make sense that "Atium" is really an Atium/electrum alloy. After all, Malatium is an Atium/gold alloy. Although, i cant even figure out what atium would do when alloyed with any of the Mental metals, or even cadmium and not-Cerrobend (hooray for proprietary eponyms!)would do :-[.
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Well, looking at both gold and electrum, they affect the person burning, but alloyed with atium, they affect others. So maybe Cadmium and not-Cerrobend act the same way. Maybe. Cadmium could make time go super-slow for everyone else around the burner, and not-Cerrobend could make time go super-fast for everyone around the burner, but the burner themselves is not affected. I'm just spit-balling here....
If I'm anywhere near being correct, it would be interesting to see someone burn both Cadmium and the not-Cerrobend Atium alloy at the same time. In battle, that would be devastating combination. Too bad there won't be any Mistborn in the other trilogies....
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But there will probably be Hemalurgists . . . .
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Oh, good point. So then they'd only have to find a real Atium Misting and kill them....and hopefully that would mean they'd be able to burn all the alloys.
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I don't really know if it would work like that. I realize the cases aren't identical, but killing an iron misting doesn't mean you get steel as well.
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I know. But if there were only mistings for the 16 metals, then that makes the alloys of Atium useless in the later trilogies. That would suck. What would be the point for Brandon to figure out all the effects of all these different metal alloys and then never use them, and know that he's not going to use them, because there aren't any Mistborn and Atium Mistings can't burn the alloys.....
I'm thinking that the God metals must be different. I mean, anyone can burn Larasium....Not anyone can burn Atium, but maybe anyone who CAN burn Atium can also burn any alloy of Atium. But if you're a misting of a lower metal, it doesn't work that way with it's alloy (assuming it's not an alloy). So a gold Misting wouldn't be able to burn Malatium, even if it's an alloy of gold....
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No, i think anyone can burn Atium, as in true Atium, but i don't know about Atium alloys...
Someone on these forums needs to find the real name for not-Cerrobend ;).
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Someone on these forums needs to find the real name for not-Cerrobend ;).
I found a few alternate names:
Cerrobend is also know as Wood's metal, Lipowitz's alloy, bendalloy, and pewtalloy.
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I believe bendalloy is the name Brandon is currently considering most seriously.
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Too bad it's a lame name. "An alloy that bends"...yeah. I think that if you're going to name the metal after what it does, in the Mistborn world, it's allomantic properties would be more interesting than its industrial uses, so it would get named for the allomantic power.
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The cool thing about Cerrobend is that it has a very low melting point. Somewhere around 70C/158F. So you can actually melt it in hot water. Pretty cool.
You are right tho, Bendalloy is a pretty lame name.
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The cool thing about Cerrobend is that it has a very low melting point. Somewhere around 70C/58F. So you can actually melt it in hot water. Pretty cool.
You are right tho, Bendalloy is a pretty lame name.
Wait, what? 70 Celsius and 58 Fahrenheit is not the same temperature... and that still seems pretty low. I can melt it by body heat?
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That's 158F. :)
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Ahh. Silly American boy: I could have figured that out on my own.
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Wow, all of those names are pretty lame. But thanks for giving us some alternate names :D.
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The new name of Cerrobend must be the primary reason why the Table of Allomantic Metals poster is taking so long.
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Okay, I'm not quite done with the book yet, (Stupid freaking real life and such) but one thing definitely made me laugh in a rather twisted sort of way. I have to post about it now, as it'll get lost in whatever post I make when I do finish.
Sanderson finally killed Brill. He wanted to kill the guy in the armies caverns in book one, alpha readers thought it was to cruel for Kelsier to do, so he changed it. But he finally did it here. Man, did Sanderson grow up with a bully named Brill or something? Oddly enough, I did, so I got some twisted amusement out of the whole situation.
Whoops, an edit because I don't want to double post, yet I want to make a separate post about my feelings on the ending of the book. Okay, Preservation/Laras was using the Mists to cause Snappings in order to give humans an edge. It snapped exactly sixteen percent of people, ostensibly 1% per each metal. But uh.... Atium didn't fit in with the overall table of metals. It's not one of the sixteen, it's an alloyable god metal outside of the normal rules. (I was always suspicious of this metal, since it didn't fit in with the periodic table. Cool to see that nagging annoyance bear some nutty fruit.) Anyway, what's going on here with this numbers game?
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I would guess that likely there is another metal that replaces atium in the table. We just don't know what it is since all we've ever seen in that area is atium.
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There is something on the somewhat spoiler filled Allomancy metal poster which you can see here:
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/737/Poster-Near-Final-Version
But the problem persists. Including the god metals there are 18 different ones. One of which just causes mistborn or mistings, so it doesn't quite count as burnable. Neither does Atium, since it too is a god metal. Therefore the mists should have effected 17 or 18 percent of people in order to reveal the Atium misting secret. In fact, I'm not even sure why there are any Atium mistings in the first place, as it's an oddity in so many ways.
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What I think is that Atium DIRECTLY replaces another metal on that table. So it really doesn't count as a metal, like Lerasium doesn't. Those who were atium mistings were really mistings of that other metal, and were therefore able to burn atium. Does that make sense? Tell me if not and I'll try to think of a different way to word it or something...
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I see what you're saying now. But bear in mind it's 1 or 16. You're either a Misting capable of burning a single metal, or a Mistborn capable of all of them. I doubt that Elend found a group of 258(ish) Mistborn, especially considering Yomen was described to be an Atium misting only. So the slight oddity of Atium Mistings at all persists, as does the much larger oddity of 16%.
Edit: (Yeah, I have an editing problem.) I kind of think that Preservation was causing the numbers based on how people thought there were 16 metals max with Atium being one of them. But the problems are that most people if not all thought there were fewer metals, and that I thought Preservation set up the Mists to sort of run on autopilot and that Preservation had used up to much of its will/mind/what have you to influence things that directly.
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I know. But what I'm saying is that these mistings are only able to burn the metal that atium replaced. For whatever reason, atium is burned in exactly the same way that the other metal is. That's why it's possible.
They're not technically atium mistings. They're just able to burn atium because of the other metal that they can burn. At least, that's my theory. Could be way off base.
It's like they're burning the same metal, except with a different effect (maybe). Atium is essentially the same thing as far as misting burnable-ness (yes I just made that up) goes.
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Andrew's back from the grave!
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Yeah. I talked more about it on the "Just finished Elantris" thread, so I'll try to avoid bogging this one down with it, but I'm back. Happily so. You guys will have to fill me in on anything particularly important I missed in the last 2 months.
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I saw Brandon at a book signing back in mid-December, and I asked him about the 16 percent deal. He said that Preservation replaced the real External Temporal Metals with Atium and Malatium (at least I'm assuming Malatium, but he didn't mention that specifically. He only said Atium). So not-Cerrobend and Cadmium weren't counted in the 16%. Nicrosil and Chromium, on the other hand, were. So there are Chromium and Nicrosil mistings running around, not knowing that they're mistings.
When he was answering this, I thought he made it pretty clear that Preservation, with the 16%, was just making Mistings. Not Mistborn. I'm not sure about the people who died. I think maybe those who died from the Mists were Mistborn, but as far as I know, Brandon hasn't confirmed or denied this theory. Nor has he confirmed or denied anything regarding the Atium Mistings created by the mists/Preservation. Maybe they are Mistborn. Maybe they can burn Atium alloys. I'm betting not. I'm betting they're simply Atium Mistings, and that's it.
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That's kind of what I was trying to say. But also not. But I've now got a solid idea rather than a vague theory, so....
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The atium mistings might have actually been electrum mistings. Ooklaa stated this earlier. One simple idea could be that all mistings can burn thier metal as well as burn thier metal alloyed with Atium or Lerasium. The metal table stated that atium and lerasium enchance the metals they are alloyed with in certain ways. The pits of hathsin might have been producing an electrum atium alloy but the lord ruler never disclosed this.
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Oh, I know about the Electrum-Atium alloy idea. I actually think it makes sense, but since Brandon hasn't said anything about this (that we've heard of, since I know he hasn't been back here in a while), I'm running on the idea that the Atium in the book is pure Atium. But I really wouldn't be surprised if it was the Electrum alloy...
That idea about an enhancement is a possibility, and it would be pretty cool. But then that would make it so Mistings could burn two metals. Yeah, the God metals function differently, but....I don't know. I just don't see that being the case. I also think that as cool as it would be for an Atium misting to be able to burn all Atium alloys, I doubt that's the case either. I think that when the book says you either get one metal or you get them all (in relation to Misting and Mistborn) it's right. Even if the metal is Atium.
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I think we need to bear in mind that Preservation knew a lot of what was going to happen (probably had a limited ability to see through time). Atium mistings would be a good thing to have if you knew that you were going to have to destroy a lot of Atium very quickly, and I think we should assume that keeping the amount of physical Atium around as low as possible would be a priority for Preservation. So a little bit of special programming in the mists would create humans capable of destroying Atium's body, rather than using the true Temporal Metals. It was probably a simple change, because Atium had many aspects of a temporal metal (as well as a mental one).
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I agree with wilson; Atium (or electrum-atium) replaced cadmium (or not-Cerrobend, can't remember which) due to the power of Preservation (most likely in the hands of TLR) wanting to dispose of the atium and making everyone burn it all up so Ruin couldn't get his hands on it. Oh, just like happyman was saying ;D
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I just want to point out that Preservation would not actually want to have People burn Atium all that often. IIRC (which is always iffy) after the atium was burned, it would eventually re-form somewhere else (like the Pits). Thus it would be better to stash the atium and then burn it only if it seemed like Ruin was going to get it.
I could be remembering totally wrong, in which case, feel free to correct me.
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No, you're right. It says that in one of the headings I think. Which nicely explains away a bit of potential plot-hole-accusation-fodder.
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Does that reforming of Atium still apply to now, after the reformation of the planet? I can't remember if EUOL said anything definitively about that. I know some people theorized that it was permanently gone, since Elend's army burned it all, and Sazed probably wouldn't let it reform, but if it reforms by default over time, I would think there's a chance for more in the future.
Not that it really matters, though, since there won't be any Mistborn in the later trilogies, and since I seriously doubt there will be Seers, that means Atium will be pretty useless if it's still around....
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I just want to point out that Preservation would not actually want to have People burn Atium all that often. IIRC (which is always iffy) after the atium was burned, it would eventually re-form somewhere else (like the Pits). Thus it would be better to stash the atium and then burn it only if it seemed like Ruin was going to get it.
I could be remembering totally wrong, in which case, feel free to correct me.
This is true. I suppose that in order for my argument to work, Preservation would have to have foreseen the very situation Elend ended up in. Which he apparently did (the Kandra have a prophecy about it, if you read closely.) But that's probably the reason for the switch.
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Does that reforming of Atium still apply to now, after the reformation of the planet? I can't remember if EUOL said anything definitively about that. I know some people theorized that it was permanently gone, since Elend's army burned it all, and Sazed probably wouldn't let it reform, but if it reforms by default over time, I would think there's a chance for more in the future.
Not that it really matters, though, since there won't be any Mistborn in the later trilogies, and since I seriously doubt there will be Seers, that means Atium will be pretty useless if it's still around....
I think the physical power of Ruin only condensed because his cognitive self was trapped. Now that Sazed controls the cognitive parts of both powers, Atium and Lerasium (And Sazedium?) need only condense if he wills it. At least that's how I understand it.
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In the second book, Zane gives Vin some atium that isn't all atium.
We know with Vin when she has other metal reserves, she can sense how much of it she has inside her. There are cases where she recalls the reserve of power being massive.
She swallowed that bead when her and Zane went after Cett. Wouldn't she of realized it was a very small reserve?
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I don't think she was really thinking about it in the course of the battle. She never even used it because she never had to...I think she was probably more focused on the reserves for the metals she WAS using than on the reserves for the metals that she wasn't--like the Atium.
And the only time that I can really recall her noticing that the reserves were massive was in the first book, when Kell first has her drink the vial...I'm probably wrong. There's probably more times than just that.....I don't have my book with me to verify though.
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I think it is clear that a Mistborn or Misting can instinctively tell how much metal they have. There's no question about it, really. It also seems clear that they have to consciously check. Vin didn't notice her extra reserves that first time until she looked. Thus if she didn't look closely at her Atium, she might not have noticed how much she had.
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The bead Zane gave her was a fairly large bead of some other metal, thinly coated with atium, right? It seems to me that just as the appearance is deceptive to the eyes, so the "feel" of the reserve inside her might have been deceptive. Until she had burned through the thin layer of atium, she couldn't tell what was underneath - for all she could sense, the whole thing "felt" like atium.
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Okay, this is my first time posting here, so I'll just start out with the usual: Brandon Sanderson, you are amazing, Mistborn is my favorite series, you make all the rest of us writers feel inadequate, so on and so forth. Moving on...
I did have a few questions, mostly about allomantic savants. Sazed talks about it a little, and we see the side effects of tin with Spook. However, other than that, we don't get much detail. I mean, I think we can all figure out what a pewter savant would be like on our own, but I am curious about copper savants. What are the effects of that? Sazed did mention they were there, even though most people missed them. And what about iron/steel? Zinc/brass? Tin and pewter make sense, but I can't figure out anything for the other metals--except, perhaps, an increased skill while burning them, and withdrawal-like symptoms if not.
Oh, and if this has already been answered, I'm sorry. I tried reading through the entire thread, got to page twenty six or so, and decided it wasn't worth the effort.
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I did have a few questions, mostly about allomantic savants. Sazed talks about it a little, and we see the side effects of tin with Spook. However, other than that, we don't get much detail. I mean, I think we can all figure out what a pewter savant would be like on our own, but I am curious about copper savants. What are the effects of that? Sazed did mention they were there, even though most people missed them. And what about iron/steel? Zinc/brass? Tin and pewter make sense, but I can't figure out anything for the other metals--except, perhaps, an increased skill while burning them, and withdrawal-like symptoms if not.
I am pretty certain bronze and copper savants just gain a longer range for their respective abilities.
Iron and Steel is more interesting. Steel Inquisitors, I believe, are Iron or Steel savants, since they need to be burning those to even see. This explains how they can see tiny particles of metal that normal Allomancers would never be able to sense--the Inquisitors are savants. I think in an annotation, Brandon said "any Allomancer can learn to see like an Inquisitor can" (though I don't have a link handy to point you to the exact annotation). This must be because any Allomancer can become a savant with enough effort.
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Interesting. I wonder how long it takes to become a Steel or Iron Savant? For Spook's tin it took about a year, right? I wonder if the time period is the same for all metals. If so, it would suck to be an Inquisitor for the first year or so.... regardless, it would suck anyway.
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So does anyone know if Brandon is aware of this new movie Push coming out? Looks kind of A WHOLE LOT like mistborn. Wikipedia it if you havent seen it, its sort of ridiculous.
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doesnt not look anything like Mistborn to me, more like Xmen maybe, with a bit of Jumper thrown in for good measure. Telekenesis has been the subject of movies and books for a very very long time.
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There was already a thread about this and it got moved somewhere else.
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I haven't looked around much, since I'm on a mobile, but Mr. Sanderson (or anyone who knows) did you have Sazed planned to be the Hero of Ages from the beginning or was that something that fell into place while you were writing?
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He planned that from the beginning; read the first chapter header of the first chapter of Mistborn. :)
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Wow....That's interesting. I was confused what you meant for a second, but then I skipped back from Chapter 1's epigraph to the Prologue epigraph...Very cool.
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Yes, if I remember correctly Brandon mentioned early on that if someone carefully read the epigraph and thought about it really hard they would know who the Hero was.
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Sorry, I forgot it was on the prologue. :)
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And some people on the forum, as I remember, did have the theory that the "on his arms" thing meant Feruchemy. I called it silly.
Oh, how wrong I was... hahaha.
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And some people on the forum, as I remember, did have the theory that the "on his arms" thing meant Feruchemy. I called it silly.
Oh, how wrong I was... hahaha.
We were all wrong about at least 2 dozen theories. xD I mean there we just SO FEW theories that we came up with.
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And some people on the forum, as I remember, did have the theory that the "on his arms" thing meant Feruchemy. I called it silly.
Oh, how wrong I was... hahaha.
We were all wrong about at least 2 dozen theories. xD I mean there we just SO FEW theories that we came up with.
"So few theories that turned out to be RIGHT" would be a better phrasing of that one. There were plenty of theories :P
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Ooops, I forgot my [/sarcasm] tag. xD
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I still think Mist burning should be a Hemalurgical ability. I mean, IT JUST MAKES SO MUCH SENSE!!!!!!
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I would have preferred Breeze being omnipotent, i mean what a world that would be!
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I would have preferred Breeze being omnipotent, i mean what a world that would be!
I'd give it a week before the entirety of the world would be blithering slaves bowing at his feet. lol.
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I'd give it a week before the entirety of the world would be blithering slaves bowing at his feet. lol.
Not only that, but the look of the world would be entirely different....I mean, Breeze definitely has style. Therefore, the world would probably be red...Maybe.
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I'd give it a week before the entirety of the world would be blithering slaves bowing at his feet. lol.
Not only that, but the look of the world would be entirely different....I mean, Breeze definitely has style. Therefore, the world would probably be red...Maybe.
Enter Breeze:
And all the plants should be red. Except the roses. Don't paint the roses.
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Wait, now I'm confused. Is that actually a quote from Breeze, or is it something you made up that works in this scenario?....Because I don't remember that, but I can totally see him saying something like that after his whole speech about how Ruin should have style....
Anyway. It's funny. I like it....
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I was making it up. And the roses thing was alluring to Alice in Wonderland. . . >>
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Ah. I knew it sounded kind of familiar....
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Yes.
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Out of all the characters Breeze truly understands humans, I mean Sazed doesn't see all the dark-side of our race he is too much an optimist, he can't yet admit we are all both good and evil. Breeze is to self centered to play god, who knows would be a humors novel i suppose.
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How is being pennieless an improvement... well i still got my friends right?
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How is being pennieless an improvement... well i still got my friends right?
This goes better in the 'Stupid Titles' thread. Here. (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6323.0)
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Slowpoke here. I can't not contribute, sorry.
First of all, I love this series like burning. I'm much more excited about the prospect of prequels that perhaps explore Alendi, Rashek, and/or the world prior to the Ascension. The background for the time period of the books themselves is incredibly rich, and it sounds like there's so much delicious history to explore. DO WANT.
Second of all, the ending was JUST RIGHT. I'll just leave it at that for now.
i escape to fantasy for the happy ending.
They saved the day. The world got fixed. Sazed isn't all emo anymore. Vin and Elend went out with a bang, together -- and Sazed states that they're comfortable and in a better place -- so neither has to grieve for the other. That sounds like a happy ending to me.
they didnt even get a chance to reproduce.
As one of the few females who does not have any desire to reproduce ever, I was happy they didn't reproduce. I realize I'm a minority but I much prefer this to a herd of children, or one kid with PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS inherited from his or her superawesome parents. It contributed to driving me away from post-original trilogy Star Wars stuff.
Just say no to tropes and stereotypes.
Third, is there anyone out there other than me that would pay to see this in theaters??
Too much content for a movie. I'd actually like to see it as an animaated series, since all the special effects required for live action would be too costly. It would look fabulous visualized either way, though.
I said on the 14th that no matter how the ending was done if Vin died it'd be too cliche, but it ended up working out really well. It's cliche that she died, but the manner and the reason wasn't cliche at all.
Am I the only one who thinks it would have been cliché if she'd lived?
They had steam technology, and were just about to hit the railroad era. Something near early 1800s in our world.
:D~~ I can't wait to dig into the fanart.
More later.
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Ack! Tropes are not cliches nor stereotypes!!! Although sometimes they can become them through overuse. Check out http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage) for a more in-depth explanation and a buttload of examples.
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Haha, actually as I was typing up a different post up, I got distracted by TVtropes.org for over an hour.
I guess I mean clichés.
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lol ooook. I guess I can forgive you then :P The words mean almost the same thing anyway :D
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Now that we know more about spiking, it seems like [Zane] wanted Ruin somehow to 'participate' with the herbalist (whose name I forget) and with Vin. Eww.
...wait, what?
11. Trust. Great choice of title for the final part! One of my favourite things from FE and WoA was how Vin gradually overcame her abandonment issues. For instance, I was going "YES!" on the inside when she chose to turn to Elend first after her fight with Zane -- throwing aside the I-can't-let-him-see-me-like-this anxiety. And then, in HoA, the abandonment issues turn out to be part of the plot, not 'just' free-standing character development. Again, "YES!" And so much of the final denial of Ruin depended on people doing what they could and trusting that it would make a difference.
12. Martyrdom of Vin and Elend. I have no problem with it. They'd been prepared on previous occasions to lay down their own lives (and each other's!), but happened to get away with it. A story would be too bright and cheesy if everyone who took heroic risks always survived. And in this case, they were already both thoroughly on board with the whole trust thing.
Here here. Those were two things I REALLY liked. They could have been handled so badly but they really turned out excellently. (lol bad English)
It's your book and your story though, but next time around I think that I'll wait until the whole set is out and then read the reviews first to see if they say something similar happens before I invest my time, and emotional well being.
D: Hope you like spoilers.
(the entire time she "was" Preservation I kept screaming that she's gotta come back down and say bye to Elend - I think I managed to make my brother mad for that one :)) but the imagery of when Spook found their bodies at the end sorta made it "ok" for me. They were holding hands, possibly showing that their love transcended even their deaths.
Yeah, that bit made it totally work for me. I think it would have been sad only if one of them had died and left the other one alive. The two of them dying together apparently at peace with everything is... maybe it isn't a positive image to most people but I think so. The fact that Sazed confirms that they are content in some sort of afterlife definitely makes it rather positive.
Sacrifice is a key theme to the whole series. Yes, they died. They died triumphant.
Heh, I wish I could put that in my sig.
Marsh lives the nightmare. He is not his own, though he is, ironically, the means by which Vin is ultimately saved. Though tainted, Marsh recaptures enough of his will to remove the taint from her. His storyline evokes so many competing reactions, adding layers to him and the narrative that are masterfully chilling and uplifting at the same time. A uniquely memorable character.
TenSoon, for he’s a jolly good kandra, for he’s a jolly good…. Well, you see where I’m going with that. I loved learning more about him and his people. His courage is so amazing. It is easy to warm to this being, even though he did away with OreSeur. The revelations about the First Contract and the First Generation were masterful...
Signed and signed.
Here's a bigger cover picture:
http://www.thescifibookstore.com/fantasy_16209_0765356147_The-Hero-of-Ages-Book-Three-of-Mistborn.html
that is most definitly not how i pictured elend would look.
I actually really like all three of the paperback books. Maybe it's because I saw their covers before I saw the hardback versions but I think they really suit the setting and "feel" of the series.
For some reason I got the old-fashioned Japanese naval uniform in my head as soon as Elend's uniform was described.
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1999/japanredmtn.th.jpg) (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=japanredmtn.jpg) (http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5585/japantraditionalbg.th.jpg) (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=japantraditionalbg.jpg)
The way Tindwyl was trying to groom Elend into a stern leader made the trim, starched Japanese naval uniform perfect in my mind's eye.
More later as I continue to plow through these pages. ¬_____¬
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Now that you say it Laura I had the same thing pictured in my head.
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I love the pictures of the Japanese uniform! Now I have a much clearer mental picture of Elend. :)
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Here are some questions. I don't think any have been answered, but I'm not entirely sure so just tell me if they have. I realize I'm getting really technical, but my mind likes to have scientific explanations for everything.
1. The metals Cadmium, NotCerrobend, and Copper all work with a 'bubble' or 'cloud', and Iron, Steel, Zinc, and Brass also work that way in the sense that you can only affect things at a certain range. Does the cloud have a specific size? Does it get bigger if you flare or use duralumin with the metal? Or does the cloud have no distinct ending, but just gets less and less powerful the further away you go from the source?
2. What happens if you burn Zinc and Riot happiness and sadness at the same time?
3. What happens if you flare or use duralumin with Gold or Electrum? Does it make the shadows clearer, or does it make you see further into the past or future? Does it do anything at all? Does it perhaps tell you something else about the shadows, like how likely they are to happen or to have happened?
4. With Duralumin, can you enhance Nicrosil, and vice versa? If so, you could get a chain of people (either Mistborn or Nicrobursts), standing in a line, and then have each one burn Nicrosil while touching the person in front of them. The person in the front would then have EXTREMELY amplified powers to the next metal he/she burned. (The front person would be Mistborn).
5. Since a Mistborn burning Lerasium will enhance his powers, what would happen if a Mistborn or Duralumin Gnat burned duralumin with Lerasium?
6. If Lerasium in alloy creates Mistings, couldn't you get a double-misting by giving someone two different alloys of Lerasium? Or would the second alloy 'cancel out' the first?
7. Can you alloy Lerasium with Atium? What would happen?
8. Concerning the two types of mist: Does burning Tin make the Ruin mits more clear, just like it makes the normal ones translucent? Does using Hemalurgy attract the Ruin mists? Can a person using Hemalurgicly-stolen Tin powers still penetrate the mists?
9. If the Lord Ruler was controlled by Ruin through the Atium Bracers on his arms (which stored age), shouldn't that have shown what Atium's Hemalurgic Power is?
10. How does the Steel Inquisitors' Eyesight work? Is it just the Allomatic properties of Iron and Steel (the blue lines) or is it a different power granted by Ruin? It doesn't seem to work in exactly the same way that Ironpulling and Steelpushing lines work.
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8. Concerning the two types of mist: Does burning Tin make the Ruin mits more clear, just like it makes the normal ones translucent? Does using Hemalurgy attract the Ruin mists? Can a person using Hemalurgicly-stolen Tin powers still penetrate the mists?
If I understood it right, all of the mists belonged to Preservation. Ruin simply encouraged them slightly so that they would make it difficult to grow crops. So, Hemalurgy always drove the mists away.
9. If the Lord Ruler was controlled by Ruin through the Atium Bracers on his arms (which stored age), shouldn't that have shown what Atium's Hemalurgic Power is?
So far as I know, they weren't actually hemalurgic, since they weren't used to kill someone and steal their powers. However, having metal embedded in his skin still caused the Lord Ruler to be under Ruin's influence. I'm not totally sure about that, though.
10. How does the Steel Inquisitors' Eyesight work? Is it just the Allomatic properties of Iron and Steel (the blue lines) or is it a different power granted by Ruin? It doesn't seem to work in exactly the same way that Ironpulling and Steelpushing lines work.
In the first book, Vin blinded a Steel Inquisitor by throwing up a metallic powder. So, I think they have the steel/iron blue lines in much more precision and depth than the average person.
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10. How does the Steel Inquisitors' Eyesight work? Is it just the Allomatic properties of Iron and Steel (the blue lines) or is it a different power granted by Ruin? It doesn't seem to work in exactly the same way that Ironpulling and Steelpushing lines work.
In the first book, Vin blinded a Steel Inquisitor by throwing up a metallic powder. So, I think they have the steel/iron blue lines in much more precision and depth than the average person.
I think basically every Inquisitor is a Steel/Iron savant. Because their senses are so finely tuned they can see metal in extremely minute amounts, such as iron in the bloodstream. That was why the metallic powder Vin used worked; to the Inquisitor, every single flake of metal had a steel/iron line pointing towards it, where a normal Mistborn would probably perceive it as a single mass. I would imagine that newly created Inquisitors are practically blind because they haven't been using steel or iron for very long.
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You see ruins black mist in WoA.
Rioting sadness and happiness would make a "Bitter- Sweet" moment...
Nicrosil and duralumin cannot be used to stack...(Brandon answered that earlier)
We know that inquisitors tin could indeed penetrate the mist
You probably could get a double misting or an amplified mistborn...
The atium in his arms weren't stolen from someone else it was his feruchemey fueled by alomancy
Alloying lerasium with atium would probably make a seer like Yomen...
Inquisitors are probably savants...
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4. With Duralumin, can you enhance Nicrosil, and vice versa? If so, you could get a chain of people (either Mistborn or Nicrobursts), standing in a line, and then have each one burn Nicrosil while touching the person in front of them. The person in the front would then have EXTREMELY amplified powers to the next metal he/she burned. (The front person would be Mistborn).
Heh heh. I like this. It would be hard to get the timing right, since when you burn nicrosil it affects the other person right away if they're burning anything. It would be very easy for someone in the chain to burn out their nicrosil before the next person turns theirs on, depending on how instantaneous it is.
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I actually asked Brandon about the Duralumin/Nicrosil thing when he was in Idaho Falls back in November for a signing.
The specific question I asked was hypothetically, if there had been a Nicrosil Misting in the room when Vin tried to take over Marsh, and if the Nicrosil Misting had used their power on her at the exact time when Vin Duralumin-pushed her Soothing of Marsh, would she have broken through Ruin's control. Brandon said no. He said there was no such thing as a double-Duralumin push...It makes me sad, because I think it would be flipping sweet, but oh well.
5. Since a Mistborn burning Lerasium will enhance his powers, what would happen if a Mistborn or Duralumin Gnat burned duralumin with Lerasium?
Mistborn don't burn Larasium. Larasium is burned to create Mistborn. Or alloys of Larasium are burned to create Mistings...
9. If the Lord Ruler was controlled by Ruin through the Atium Bracers on his arms (which stored age), shouldn't that have shown what Atium's Hemalurgic Power is?
I don't remember the bracers being Atium. They were just stated as being made of "metal."
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I don't remember the bracers being Atium. They were just stated as being made of "metal."
TLR's bracers were specifically atium. They contained his stores of youth, and that plus his 1000 year age is why their loss was so instantly crippling to him when Vin tore them off with a mist-fueled push (or was it a pull?). I also specifically remember a mention of them being sold to help finance Elend's new government.
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Yeah, I see that now. I didn't check to make sure that we didn't already know Atium's Hemalurgy ability before I posted. I just assumed since pirsquared was asking that it was one of the unknowns, and since I only have my copy of FE (which only refers to the bracers as "metal"), I couldn't check WoA to make sure, but now that you mention it, I totally remember the selling of the bracers. Don't know how I forgot....oh well.
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Lerasium can indeed enhance your current powers, according to the poster at the following website:
http://mistborn.livejournal.com/111534.html
"Pure Lerasium transforms a person into an Allomancer or drastically improves their Allomantic powers."
That doesn't necissarily mean that you could use Duralumin with Lerasium, but it does seem somewhat clear that if a person like Vin whose powers were deluted over generations burned Lerasium, their powers would be improved at least to the point of the original Allomancers.
One other question: I'm somewhat confused with the nature of Cadmium.
Does cadmium make time APPEAR to pass more slowly in a bubble around the user, allowing him to have more time to think about his decisions? Or does it actually make time pass slower in the bubble, so that a minute inside the bubble is five or six minutes outside of it? (The second possibility is like Einstein's theory of relativity, if you're familiar with it).
NotCerrobend, obviously, does the opposite, making time either appear to zip by really fast or actually making it go faster in reality.
I don't think I explained that very well, so just tell me if you're confused.
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That doesn't necissarily mean that you could use Duralumin with Lerasium, but it does seem somewhat clear that if a person like Vin whose powers were deluted over generations burned Lerasium, their powers would be improved at least to the point of the original Allomancers.
That's pretty much what I meant. It sounded to me like you were meaning Larasium can be used like any other metal, but the way I understand it, it's a one time use. You use it, you get the powers of the original Allomancers, and that's it. Sure, you could use another bead, but it won't do anything more for you.....And if you're a misting, and you eat it, you'll become a Mistborn. What I don't know, but I would be interested to find out, is your question about eating two different alloys of Larasium. Would it make the person a double Misting? That would be cool...
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Theres all kinds of interesting questions about Lerasium. If you use it you get the strength of the original mistborn. But is that the ceiling? If one of them used it again would they become twice as strong? And the duralumin question is a great one.
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Not sure if this is the right place to put this, but I noticed the description for Copper only says:
Burning this metal creates an invisible cloud around the Allomancer which hides all within it from those who are burning Bronze.
Why doesn't it mention the fact that it also shields the Allomancer from Soothing/Rioting?
Also, a minor point of grammar about Pewter:
Burning pewter increases the Allomancer's physical strength, speed, durability, and enhances the body's ability to heal.
I think it should read, Burning pewter increases the Allomancer's physical strength, speed, and durability, and enhances the body's ability to heal.
Also, I must have blinked and missed it, but why is everyone calling Cerrobend "Not-Cerrobend"?
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Also, I must have blinked and missed it, but why is everyone calling Cerrobend "Not-Cerrobend"?
Because after Brandon unveiled that poster version, it was discovered that the name "Cerrobend" was copyrighted, so he needs to find another name for that metal. Since we don't know what that name is yet, it is currently just called Not-Cerrobend.
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I'd give it a week before the entirety of the world would be blithering slaves bowing at his feet. lol.
Not only that, but the look of the world would be entirely different....I mean, Breeze definitely has style. Therefore, the world would probably be red...Maybe.
Enter Breeze:
And all the plants should be red. Except the roses. Don't paint the roses.
Here's the actual quote from Breeze "Red--you'd always be thinking, 'Why, look at that. That hill is red. That evil force of doom trying to destroy me certainly has style.' "
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So, I wanted to speculate a bit about the future of the Mistborn world.
First of all, the Kandra and Marsh will both be under Sazed's influence just like they used to be under Ruin's. Considering Sazed's character, I imagine that he'd let them have free will but have enhanced ability to communicate with them. I'm imagining a temple to Sazed/Adonalsium made by the Kandra under Sazed's influence. He might ban all metal from the temple, so that he can see everything in it clearly. I'm imagining Marsh as doing what he wants unless Sazed has an errand for him, in which case Marsh could understand what Sazed wants better than anyone else.
I'm also imagining the kandra taking the role of priests. Occasionally, Sazed might give them permission to receive extra Blessings (from a dead kandra or from someone who was executed lawfully or something like that). A kandra with extra Blessings would be more powerful and more in-tune with Sazed's speaking to them.
It would also be a very challenging world for non-Mistings.
You also might find people trying to develop a breeding program that would reintroduce Mistborn.
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So it's a Kwistach Hadderach all over again me likey :-*!
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I did finish the Mistborn series yesterday and i did love it. However...is the story finished now or do we get to read about Spook and the others in the "new" world at all? I would love to read about it but i cant se how realy, the plot lines and stuff is allredy ended.
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If you read the thread you would know that the next set of mistborn books will be set generations after the gang with technological advancement ect.
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Thx for the information :) Well, 53 pages of discussions regarding different metals did make me "jump" some pages :) It feels good to know that the story will go on though :)
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I should start this with a confession, one that'll most likely garner some disapproval (I've been on enough forums myself): I didn't read all 53 pages. I only finished this series in the wee hours of this morning, having spent all of my "Free" time reading it yesterday - start to finish, and I only got through the first twenty or so pages before the urge to spill my thoughts became overpwoering. I absolutely loved the trilogy, and will probably pick up Elantris when I next visit the bookstore as well as other Sanderson books (hopefully!) in the future. I think some of the compliments from other authors on the covers of his books (first two paperbacks, third one hardback) struck me as being especially true. Not the silly nonsense about "fans of Goodkind and Jordan will love this! A great read!" (minor detour: I know Brandon is writing the next WoT book, but honestly I've never liked Jordan's series while I've got Goodkind to thank for bringing me to fantasy in the first place, so I always find it amusing that Goodkind and Jordan are synonymous to publishers. /end), but the one that comes to mind had to do with Brandon having something to the effect of a real understanding of leadership and love and how they influence characters. And I agree wholeheartedly.
On another, related, point, I really liked the development of the series, both in terms of the characters and the plot, and I felt really attached to the main figures for most of the journey.
So before I turn this into a review of the whole series, I should probably get to the point - namely, that I'm one of those evil and ignorant blasphemers who didn't like ("hated" seems such a strong word, though it might be closer to the truth) the end of the trilogy. Hopefully you didn't just break your screen in your attempts to throttle me...
My question:
"Why?" This is Brandon Sanderson writing, and I don't think any of us believe he really couldn't come up with a way to end the book without at least suggesting that the only two characters we TRULY care about can live. We don't read books to watch the bad guys fall - that'd get boring real quick. We read for characters, because we become involved with them, care about them and their struggles, want them to succeed even when they themselves don't think they can. "The world lived happily ever after" doesn't satisfy me if the things I care about in that world don't - once the people I care about die and stay dead, Ruin has won. In fact that's exactly how Vin finally felt after her strange display by Elend's corpse - she had nothing left to live for - not happiness, not joy, not Sazed, not Spook, not Kelsier, not Elend. She wasn't "sacrificing" her life so that everyone else could live and be happy, she was committing suicide the only way a god could.
Actually never mind. I did have 560 words written explaining my stance, but I've decided all those things aren't important. Maybe it's just a difference in what readers look for: maybe some look for plot and others for character. I won't deny that the ending tied it all up rather well plot-wise, it was very well done in that respect. But for someone who looks for and cares for the characters in a novel, having the only two people I really care about both commit suicide feels like a slap in the face from a friend. Feels like worse than that - like an absolute betrayal.
:) sorry for the melodrama, but I think that's the real problem people have with the ending (those of us who don't like it). Vin and Elend being happy in a supposed afterlife is not a consolation at all. Them being happy in the afterlife happens if Ruin wins or if Ruin loses. If they can be happy together in the afterlife, perhaps they should've committed suicide when they fell in love and had an eternity of peace. Or just let Ruin win. But they didn't, because mumbo-jumbo aside, life is what matters, and in the living realm those two are gone.
(nonetheless, thank you for keeping me up late Brandon :P )
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Goodkind couldn't possibly have gotten you into fantasy, but that's another thread.
I don't think it's fair to say they just committed suicide. The way in which they died accomplished something and they knew, when they did it, that it would accomplish that. When Vin said she had nothing left to live for, she was recognizing that wanting to live was keeping her from accomplishing what she already knew only she could do.
Sometimes, life is not what matters. Yes, life is very important, but it is not the be-all, end-all.
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Did you also hate it when Kelsier died? Or did you recognize that his death was noble and great?
I feel the same way about Vin and Elend's deaths. Yes, it's sad, but they accomplished what they'd worked the entire series for. And, the way things were set up, it was pretty much the only way it could have happened. For me, any other ending would have felt a bit contrived.
I'm telling you this mostly in the hopes that it helps you feel a little better about the way the series wrapped up. :)
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[. . .]
"Why?" This is Brandon Sanderson writing, and I don't think any of us believe he really couldn't come up with a way to end the book without at least suggesting that the only two characters we TRULY care about can live. We don't read books to watch the bad guys fall - that'd get boring real quick. We read for characters, because we become involved with them, care about them and their struggles, want them to succeed even when they themselves don't think they can. "The world lived happily ever after" doesn't satisfy me if the things I care about in that world don't - once the people I care about die and stay dead, Ruin has won. In fact that's exactly how Vin finally felt after her strange display by Elend's corpse - she had nothing left to live for - not happiness, not joy, not Sazed, not Spook, not Kelsier, not Elend. She wasn't "sacrificing" her life so that everyone else could live and be happy, she was committing suicide the only way a god could.
Actually never mind. I did have 560 words written explaining my stance, but I've decided all those things aren't important. Maybe it's just a difference in what readers look for: maybe some look for plot and others for character. I won't deny that the ending tied it all up rather well plot-wise, it was very well done in that respect. But for someone who looks for and cares for the characters in a novel, having the only two people I really care about both commit suicide feels like a slap in the face from a friend. Feels like worse than that - like an absolute betrayal.
:) sorry for the melodrama, but I think that's the real problem people have with the ending (those of us who don't like it). Vin and Elend being happy in a supposed afterlife is not a consolation at all. Them being happy in the afterlife happens if Ruin wins or if Ruin loses. If they can be happy together in the afterlife, perhaps they should've committed suicide when they fell in love and had an eternity of peace. Or just let Ruin win. But they didn't, because mumbo-jumbo aside, life is what matters, and in the living realm those two are gone.
[. . .]
I find it rather interesting that this is how you describe your feelings about the ending. Particularly, "But for someone who looks for and cares for the characters in a novel, having the only two people I really care about both commit suicide feels like a slap in the face from a friend. Feels like worse than that - like an absolute betrayal." and "But they didn't, because mumbo-jumbo aside, life is what matters, and in the living realm those two are gone."
I begin to wonder if perhaps Brandon wrote his books with this specific reaction in mind. So much of the Mistborn trilogy is dedicated to trust, and the first one particularly tackles how to deal with betrayal. Could Brandon possibly be trying to tell you that the solutions Vin and Kelsier found in the first book do not hold true simply for them? That these issues are real, and he needed to give you an opportunity to bridge the gap between reality and his novels? I think Brandon was being very crafty here, and showing us -- not only through the words on his page, but also through the feelings in our heart -- how to deal with betrayal and trust, and how to appreciate the life around us. To stir us up in remembrance of that which is important in our lives.
Just a thought.
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Actually I thought Kelsier's death was fantastic. Yes, I was sad, and yes, I expected him to come back or to at least not be dead for a little, but it really was a great gesture and empowered Vin and the rest to overthrow the Lord Ruler. But that's what makes it different to me - there was still someone alive I cared about and sympathized with. If, however, Vin had died five pages later in her attack on the Lord Ruler, then my feelings would have been very similar, if a little weaker.
I don't think it's fair to say they just committed suicide. The way in which they died accomplished something and they knew, when they did it, that it would accomplish that. When Vin said she had nothing left to live for, she was recognizing that wanting to live was keeping her from accomplishing what she already knew only she could do.
Sometimes, life is not what matters. Yes, life is very important, but it is not the be-all, end-all.
Really? Elend let himself be killed so that Vin would not want to live anymore and thus kill Ruin with her death. Personally I find that close to horrifying to do to someone you love and who loves you back. It seems to me that Ruin was actually right when he said that every human advances his cause, that everyone was his pawn. Because Elend managed to do what even a god couldn't - kill the one person he loved. I know most others will see this differently, but that's how I feel about the ending.
Also, to me, when everyone I care about dies in a book, one because he sees the genius in a plan, the other because she has nothing worth living for, the other things don't really matter anymore. That was just my point, I think. That beating Ruin wasn't what I was reading the book for - it was so I could "be" with Vin and Elend.
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Elend did not die because he "sees the genius in a plan", he died because he saw the plan and realized it was the only way to beat Ruin and beating Ruin was, in his opinion, worth that sacrifice. Vin did say that Elend was her only reason for living, but I think she meant that he was her only reason to live despite the required cost of not killing Ruin. I really don't think she would have committed suicide over Elend's death if suicide would not have accomplished something major that couldn't be done any other way.
Vin and Elend spent the entire book trying to beat Ruin despite being just two humans struggling against a god-like entity. Defeating Ruin was their overriding goal throughout, more important to them than even their own lives in the end. They accomplished their goal and are happy. It's a little sad that they had to die to pull it off, but they decided it was worth it.
Personally, I think it would have been cheap and something of a cop out if Vin and Elend won outright without such a major sacrifice. I wouldn't go so far as to say it would ruin the book for me, but I think it would weaken the story quite a bit. If the good guys win against overwhelming odds with no real cost to anyone but the redshirts, that greatly reduces the impact of the victory and makes you wonder if the villain was really as much of a threat as he was presented as.
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""Why?" This is Brandon Sanderson writing, and I don't think any of us believe he really couldn't come up with a way to end the book without at least suggesting that the only two characters we TRULY care about can live"
But he did! Read the last chapter again, when Spook finds the books at Vin and Elends corpses :D
If i understand it correctly, the Mistborn serie is not ended. "If you read the thread you would know that the next set of mistborn books will be set generations after the gang with technological advancement ect." maby they will get revived again to face another treath of some sort. Both Vin and Elend will be remembered ofc, they are a legend to the surviviors and will be some sort of gods in their minds.
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Ha, I suppose that could be a question for Brandon too: What're the chances that we'll see Elend and Vin again?
Really I don't think there's a chance we will. Killing main characters at the end of a story and then bringing them back to life later doesn't seem like something he'd do. I got the sense that it was a final end, a last goodbye - hence the last chapter.
*sigh*
Who knows? Maybe they will be back?
Vin and Elend spent the entire book trying to beat Ruin despite being just two humans struggling against a god-like entity. Defeating Ruin was their overriding goal throughout, more important to them than even their own lives in the end. They accomplished their goal and are happy. It's a little sad that they had to die to pull it off, but they decided it was worth it.
Personally, I think it would have been cheap and something of a cop out if Vin and Elend won outright without such a major sacrifice.
But if you think about what you're saying, it doesn't make much sense at the end there. "They accomplished their goal and are happy." When you put it like that, which is a very valid way to put it considering that Brandon went to special effort to have Sazed report their happiness, does it not belittle their "sacrifice"? You say it's cheap without a major sacrifice, but what did they sacrifice? They gave up a few moments of joy and a few moments of pain (ie life) for an eternity of happiness.
I suppose when it's put like that, Elend choosing not to fight - choosing to have the woman he loves kill herself - doesn't seem so bad if they just get an eternity of happiness. Maybe I've just been looking at it from the wrong angle, but to me I'd rather think that the events of the final book mattered , and the two shouldn't have just killed themselves when Ruin got free. And if I think the book matters, then I think life matters, and then I'm back to being annoyed with their suicides to a plan millenia old....
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If they had killed themselves when Ruin got free, Ruin would have won instead of being defeated by them at the end of the book.
We don't know how the afterlife works in Brandon's universe—even Sazed knows very little about how it works. We don't know that everyone who dies goes there and is eternally happy. And while Elend may have learned about the afterlife in his duralumin-atium-burn, Vin did not know and probably fully expected to be making the ultimate sacrifice.
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But it seems like Sazed know where they are but couldnt revive them yet. He say that he might revive them later when he knows more. I still hope they will be revived again...im a romantic fool, i know ;)
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I'm of mixed feelings about the end. I loved it, yet I really don't like that Vin and Elend died, regardless of the purpose for it. I totally understand why they had to die. I think it's pure genius on Brandon's part to have come up with an ending like that. But I still wish that they hadn't've died....Or rather, since the ending wouldn't have been nearly the same without their deaths, that they might have a chance sometime in the future to live again. To get a better life. One where they won't have to worry about the end of the world. One where they can just settle down and maybe have a few kids, or something.
I don't expect that we'll see it, though. Brandon has better books to write than a tale about Vin and Elend's second chance at life. I do think Sazed's comment at the end is kind of a teaser for something but I don't think it's about either Vin or Elend. Maybe some other character will appear in one of the later trilogies....Or maybe not.
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The happiest part of the ending is Sazed. He was one of my favorite characters - perhaps even on par with Vin and Elend. Spook and Breeze...not so much.
Also, poor TenSoon. :(
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On the other hand, there is a large possibility that Marsh will be in the next series, using atium storage to become like the lord ruler (live for a long, long time..)
On another side note, I wonder if in a thousand years if the Well will fill up again?
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I actually made a post about the ending some time ago, explaining why it absolutely had to end the way it did, and that any other ending would have been a much deeper betrayal of the characters than their death.
Before I get to this point, though, I would like to say that Elend's and Vin's deaths were not suicides in the usual sense of the word. Technically it may be true, but the word carries connotations that I don't think really apply. Suicide implies that the death was somehow senseless or driven by an internal, emotional need to die. In a cosmic sense, Elend and Vin died in battle in order to save the rest of their troops. They knew it would kill them, yes, but if they could have found a way around their deaths, they would have taken it. But they couldn't, so instead of backing out or being cowards, they faced it with all the courage they could muster.
I think this is important because they had asked so many other people to die for their cause. "Redshirts" is a good way of putting it. Vin and Elend had to prove their core integrity, that all the terrible things they had done to others over the series were justified; that they were not tyrants or monsters but simply people trying to do their best. What better way to show it than to sacrifice themselves, rather than others, when that was what their cause truly brought them to?
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happyman, I can totally see where you're coming from. I'm not saying that having them both die at the end wasn't an excellent way to tie up the series in terms of plot.
Here's another angle that just came to my mind. You mention Elend AND Vin had to "prove" their own integrity. So tell me why Elend had to die? The reasoning to me seems like this:
Elend is alive -> Vin loves Elend -> Vin wants to be with Elend -> Vin values life with Elend.
Therefore Elend commits suicide (senselessness fully implied) to force Vin to comply with his ideals and do what he wants by removing any incentive for her to remain in the world of the living.
Wow. Haha. That's probably the ultimate way of being used right there, proving what I'd always thought wasn't true - that Vin is just a knife for Elend's ideals. If Vin had truly been willing to "Sacrifice" her life and been the saint upholding her integrity and noble ideals that you make her out to be, Elend wouldn't have had to die. (On that point - if she HAD been willing to die, she could have saved Elend by killing Ruin and therefore freeing Marsh) And I think that's why I like Vin - because she isn't the idealist. She might not be empress, and Elend was certainly best for that role, but SHE started the Empire. She slaughtered innocents in cold blood and felt nothing but like a god.
Also, one last point that makes the ending rather muted - the future of the Mistborn world. Elend was the best ruler for the Empire. Without Vin at his side I could've seen him still succeeding. But with neither Vin nor Elend, I find it hard to imagine anyone else being able to hold the empire together...Breeze? Cares too little. Spook? Too young and with no understanding of politics. Cett? Maybe a good man inside, but we've had his flaws pointed out enough that we should be familiar. He lost his own kingdom.
:)
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Also, one last point that makes the ending rather muted - the future of the Mistborn world. Elend was the best ruler for the Empire. Without Vin at his side I could've seen him still succeeding. But with neither Vin nor Elend, I find it hard to imagine anyone else being able to hold the empire together...Breeze? Cares too little. Spook? Too young and with no understanding of politics. Cett? Maybe a good man inside, but we've had his flaws pointed out enough that we should be familiar. He lost his own kingdom.
What "empire"? Sazed brought all the storage caches together, and there were probably at most a few tens of thousands of people in them. That's not an empire; that's hardly even a city. Whatever other people may have survived (a topic that if memory serves got RAFO'd earlier in this thread), they'd be in other nations, at least initially.
Remember also that Spook has help. Breeze may not be much of a statesman, but he knows people like few others. He has the de-spiked Citizen and his sister (her name is slipping my mind ATM), who both have good experience with governance. There's probably some remnants of Elend's assembly hanging around, Cett, though imperfect, could help, and, shoot, he's even got Yomen.
If anything, there are too many people that might try and hold things together. :P
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happyman, I can totally see where you're coming from. I'm not saying that having them both die at the end wasn't an excellent way to tie up the series in terms of plot.
Here's another angle that just came to my mind. You mention Elend AND Vin had to "prove" their own integrity. So tell me why Elend had to die? The reasoning to me seems like this:
Elend is alive -> Vin loves Elend -> Vin wants to be with Elend -> Vin values life with Elend.
Therefore Elend commits suicide (senselessness fully implied) to force Vin to comply with his ideals and do what he wants by removing any incentive for her to remain in the world of the living.
Wow. Haha. That's probably the ultimate way of being used right there, proving what I'd always thought wasn't true - that Vin is just a knife for Elend's ideals. If Vin had truly been willing to "Sacrifice" her life and been the saint upholding her integrity and noble ideals that you make her out to be, Elend wouldn't have had to die. (On that point - if she HAD been willing to die, she could have saved Elend by killing Ruin and therefore freeing Marsh) And I think that's why I like Vin - because she isn't the idealist. She might not be empress, and Elend was certainly best for that role, but SHE started the Empire. She slaughtered innocents in cold blood and felt nothing but like a god.
Also, one last point that makes the ending rather muted - the future of the Mistborn world. Elend was the best ruler for the Empire. Without Vin at his side I could've seen him still succeeding. But with neither Vin nor Elend, I find it hard to imagine anyone else being able to hold the empire together...Breeze? Cares too little. Spook? Too young and with no understanding of politics. Cett? Maybe a good man inside, but we've had his flaws pointed out enough that we should be familiar. He lost his own kingdom.
:)
When Elend let himself die, I don't think he was doing it to let Vin go. I don't think he had any plans beyond destroying the Atium and giving everybody else some time to live. For instance, by keeping Marsh's attention, Marsh wasn't going into the caverns trying to kill people to get at the Atium; Elend was the only person around who had even the slightest chance against him, and so fighting Marsh and surviving and helping those less capable survive was his responsibility. It was a desperate move, but the circumstances were very desperate. While I suspect that the side effects of his death were not accidental from Preservations viewpoint, I don't think it's what he had in mind, and hence I don't classify it the way you do.
You seem to think that the way things turned out was what everybody had meant to happen. While I think that what happened is indeed what Preservation meant to happen, I know that the protagonsists didn't know what would happen. From their more limited perspective, they were just living up to their ideals. And thus I don't see anything wrong with the ending.
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For me, Vin and Elend's deaths seemed unnecessary at first as well. Kelsier's death was also depressing at first. But Kelsier's death had time to sink in, and by the end, it seemed completely necessary and normal. Just like when someone dies in real life; you get used to it after a while, and even though you still may be sad about it, life goes on and you go on with it. The problem I think many people had with Vin and Elend is that the book ended right after they died, so they were still attached to the characters. Life didn't go on, it stopped right in that tragic moment. I think that reading the next series (once it comes out) should give the deaths time to sink in, and eventually Vin and Elend will be just like Kelsier.
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I finally get to post here!!! I just finshed the book yesterday and I thought this book was well thought out. With me I thought the turn around with Sazed being the HoA was really cool. I looked back to the first book and I saw how much Vin changed over the year and I liked that. To see a charater change liked Vin who went from a street urchin to one of the most powerful Mistborn and the Empress was also really cool.
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Sazed is the Hero of Ages and Vin and Elend die in book 3.
Were you shocked when you found out? Can you think of a better ending?
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Change your title. Put the actual spoiler in your first post.
I wasn't, no. It all made sense if you think about it.
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After reading book two my friends and I were convinced that Elend was the Hero of Ages.
What I kind of wonder is who wrote the prophecies about the Hero of Ages? It doesn't seem like either Ruin or Preservation had any idea that it was Sazed.
(Also, I would change the title of the thread even more, trust me, it sucks to have the ending spoiled online. I accidentally read that Sazed was the Hero of Ages in a thread here before I even opened the book I had bought. I'd put something like SPOILER - How The Hero of Ages Ends)
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Good Daman. ;) You'll catch on to how things work here soon. :]
Well I spent forever thinking about who it would be after Brandon said it was in the epigraph for the prologue. The line he'd hold the future of the world on his arms gives it away if you think about it.
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I actually expected it to be Sazed even before the book came out, but that was more from hints gleaned from what was left of the prophecies than any deeper insight (his height, if you must know. Brandon drew just a bit too much attention to it in the first book). I knew he was the hero, though, when he thought in book three "I, unfortunately, am in charge". However, I must say that how he was the hero of ages came as a surprise, and was deeply gratifying. His life was not wasted; exactly the opposite.
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Sazed is so kind and heartfelt that you'd have to have a heart of stone not to like him.
:'( :'( :'(
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Actually, this brings up something I've been wondering about.
The powers seem to change the people who use them. When the Lord Ruler took preservation's power, he never really tried to make anything new, but simply tried to preserve what was left, as Sazed noted in the chapter bumps. If we take this type of effect and extrapolate it across enormous spans of time, it's not hard to see how Preservation and Ruin, even if originally people (as implied by the existence of bodies) would come to embody their powers almost exclusively. (Note especially that Ruin seems to claim that he hasn't always controlled the power when he says effectively "Until you've used it as long as I have, you'll never get the hang of it.")
So if this is true, what will Sazed become by virtue of holding both of them? Or will they cancel out and he will sit at the fulcrum, balanced?
Of course, because Feruchemy is the power of balance, I suppose it makes sense for him to have both powers. Maybe only a feruchemist could have taken both?
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Ruin is stronger than preservation because part of preservation is missing, it was the price to give birth to the sentience of man. However i doubt that this becomes a problem for Sazed he will stay at the fulcrum.
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If Brandon writes a second series, it'll be really interesting to see how Sazed uses the power and if he'll let anyone have access to the God Metals. Do you think anyone will ever actually plot against Sazed? So far as we know, his only weaknesses are that metal blinds him and that he can't read minds. Otherwise, he'd be nearly omnipotent.
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If Brandon writes a second series, it'll be really interesting to see how Sazed uses the power and if he'll let anyone have access to the God Metals. Do you think anyone will ever actually plot against Sazed? So far as we know, his only weaknesses are that metal blinds him and that he can't read minds. Otherwise, he'd be nearly omnipotent.
Given that Ruin, half the power Sazed has, was brought down only by Preservation, his other half, I seriously doubt there is squat that regular humans could do to him.
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Well, I just registered here, but this looks like a good place for a first post. Brandon Sanderson is an awesome writer! I can't wait for him to write a Mistborn Trilogy sequel series.
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You're going to be waiting a while. :)
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Trust Ooky to shut down the new kid. ::)
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It's okay. I know I'll be waiting a while. But, I bet it'll be worth every second of the wait.
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Eh. Maybe half the seconds.
;D jk, of course
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I have another question. I haveben re-reading the Final Empire, and it seems to me that in the beginning of the series the Inquisitors are much stronger than a Mistborn, but in HoA, we learn that through Hemalurgic decay, they are actually weaker than a Mistborn, they just have healing. So does healing make up for the Hemalurgic decay? Or is it just experience/special training from Lord Ruler?
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They're stronger than a mistborn in the one attribute they were allomancers in beforehand. Or, if they were mistborn already, they are stronger than a mistborn in everything. I'm guessing it's a combination of those factors and more training.
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Also don't forget about the savant theory.
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Not to mention they could have repeated spikes...and in HoA the inquisitor's have slain keepers for their strength to add to the healing and speed they already had
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I think the real advantage the inquisitors had was largely the feruchemical enhancements. These powers were completely unknown to mistborn and could be played for an extremely large tactical surprise.
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And even if they were known, they'd still be hard to counter.
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Not hard enough for Kelsier 8)
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OK, I've been thinking, and Ook is definitely right as well. Having a double dose of one of the main Mistborn skills is pretty major as well. Like the ability to pierce copperclouds or pull or push twice as hard.
So. They have double strength on one normal skill, unless they were mistborn, in which case they have double strength on all the normal skills. They also have feruchemical healing and a few other attributes which the mistborn generally didn't know. Yeah, they're walking tanks.
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who says they only have one spike per power also
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Many have discussed the idea of the shards and how the literary worlds of Mr. Sanderson are in the same universe. I pose that they are not in the same universe at all and in actuality, by utilizing quantum theory, occur in multiple/alternate universes/realities.
Quantum theory posits that any time a decision is made (turn left instead of right) that a new reality is formed and there are infinite realities. I believe that this is the case in Sandersonia (a bad name I know that ecompasses Mr. Sanderson's literary works, at least the ones connected by the Shards of Adonalsium).
Examples that may support my theory are the uses of Atium, in how it makes a user aware of many/all possible actions from someone and Malatium and how it makes the user aware of alternate reality versions of someone else, one could say glimpsing alternate realities. These God metals seem to breach the realities. I pose that some of the characters may even just possibly be different versions of the same people on different worlds, but that may be a stretch. What do you think?
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Well I'm late to this party but I finally finished HoA!! Unfortnatly it was spoiled for me (Thanks Utopia! /sarcasm) Anyhow the journey to the conclusion of the story was still fun and still very sad. If the main characters have to die that is the way to go, dying for a cause and to make the world a better place. They went out Heroes.
I really do think this Mistborn should be a video game I would love to play an Allomancer on the Wii.
I actually wish there WERE more Fantasy/Modern books, I enjoyed the concept of Shadowrun for instance. There isn't enough of this out there and some of the stuff that is, is very poorly done.
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So I wasn't sure where to put this, so I'll just put it here.
I got a look at the near-final Allomantic table at the Warbreaker Release party, and I have the new Not-cerrobend!
Cerrobend has been replased by Bendalloy!
Also, Brandon Sanderson said that we might get a Ferchemal (sp?) Chart in the future.
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I certainly hope so. I want to know what the Feruchemical powers are (and Hemalurgical powers, for that matter). Thanks for the info, Zas :D
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Hmm...I liked Cerrobend better than Bendalloy. But, whatever goes, goes. :P
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Unfortunately, Raphael, Cerrobend is a copyrighted name, so Brandon needed something different.
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It's been a while since I read the Mistborn trilogy, but I was just thinking about this now. In the first book, Vin kils The Lord Ruler with help from the mists/Preservation. Why would Preservation help her? The Lord Ruler would have taken the power from the well for himself again, so why would Preservation stop this? I might be completely confused or mistaken, but it doesn't seem to make sense....
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It's been a while since I read the Mistborn trilogy, but I was just thinking about this now. In the first book, Vin kils The Lord Ruler with help from the mists/Preservation. Why would Preservation help her? The Lord Ruler would have taken the power from the well for himself again, so why would Preservation stop this? I might be completely confused or mistaken, but it doesn't seem to make sense....
Preservation wasn't thinking very clearly at this point. It had chosen Vin as the new vessel for its power, and so she had access to the mists. I suspect that whether this access was good or bad wasn't something Preservation could really control any more.
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Unfortunately, Raphael, Cerrobend is a copyrighted name, so Brandon needed something different.
Ya, I read about it.
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It's been a while since I read the Mistborn trilogy, but I was just thinking about this now. In the first book, Vin kils The Lord Ruler with help from the mists/Preservation. Why would Preservation help her? The Lord Ruler would have taken the power from the well for himself again, so why would Preservation stop this? I might be completely confused or mistaken, but it doesn't seem to make sense....
Preservation wasn't thinking very clearly at this point. It had chosen Vin as the new vessel for its power, and so she had access to the mists. I suspect that whether this access was good or bad wasn't something Preservation could really control any more.
I would say that it's less about keeping Ruin trapped than having Ruin replaced. When Vin kills Ati(The consciousness of Ruin) she tells him that it was Preservation's plan all along that a being of Preservation and Ruin would sacrifice itself and destroy both. The end of the plan(I would assume) is that someone from Terris, with all of their knowledge and slow, methodical ways of thinking would be there to take up both powers.
That would also explain why Preservation specifically gave the Terris their prophecies. Leras(Consciousness of Preservation) trusted them and their ways to eventually control both powers and save the world.
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Where did you learn the names of Ruin and Preservation?
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Thank you happyman and turbolinux999. Those answers are perfect.
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Brandon Sanderson mentioned the true names of Ruin (Ati, root of Atium), and Preservasion (Leras, the root of Lerasium (the green bead Elend swallowed)) earlier in this thread.
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First-time poster just dropping a few words of appreciation for the Mistborn Trilogy. Masterful work Mr.Sanderson I thoroughly enjoyed reading your books.
I have a particular affinity for the Kendra. Throughout the last two books you hinted at something (intentionally or not I wonder) with regard to their abilities. It seems that as a race they didn't explore the full scope of there talent to construct bodies. Having descended from humans and invested with sentience they exclusively mimicked human bodies. This is of course with the exception of Tensoon. Not only did he mimick species outside humans but you implied that kendra could possibly combine different facets of other species (much like the clumsy efforts of their mistwraith states). This leaves open a hitherto unexplored phenomenon ...kendra could effectively create "chimera-like" bodies. I suppose in a world of ash-mounts the Kendra wouldn't have a diverse set of animals from which to build "classic" amalgams like griffons, minotaurs and the like, but in a world reshaped by Sazed, one filled with such diversity this becomes a pointed possibility.
The Kendra are poised to become a powerful people should you chose to explore that avenue. It is my hope that you chose to.
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As far as the death of Vin and Elend...
Their powers are not greater than Ruin's. Anything they do that Ruin could anticipate, Ruin counters. There is one thing, one perfectly non-selfish act that could defeat Ruin. Ruin would never even consider martyrdom, because it is too selflessly outside his nature. He can't even fathom the concept, which is why they succeed.
Concerning the people who are disturbed by the death of their favorite characters...
I just spend 15 minutes trying to find the quote that goes something like... "If your goals are achievable in this life, then they're not big enough"... I don't think that necessarily holds true for everyone, but for Emperors and the like, especially Elend, it definitely applies. Elend and Vin are willing to sacrifice themselves for the ones they love, and for the greater good. Ghandi went out and did his work, knowing he'd received death threats, and died because of it. I think its small-minded and out of the nature of the book to challenge the death of the characters of the book.
Sacrifice is a reoccurring theme in the book, but especially in Elend's life. He sacrifices by leaving his comfort zone to engage in a real relationship with Vin. He puts aside his feelings of hurt and betrayal when the Lord Ruler is executing Skaa. He gives up his seat as King because of his ideals. He puts aside his ideals for the good of the Kingdom by becoming the Emperor. He eventually comes to a point where he can ensure the survival of the entire planet by keeping Ruin occupied with himself, knowing it will kill him.
If the teachers teaching high school have any brains at all, they'll have their kids read this book, and essays will be written about Elend's theme of sacrifice. (A Separate Peace really wasn't even a classic anyways :P )
My question is... What were the 16% of the people who flat-out died to the mists?
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My question is... What were the 16% of the people who flat-out died to the mists?
From what I remember, far fewer than 16% died outright. Exactly 16% got sick, but the number of people who died after getting sick varied depending on how healthy they were before.
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As I was reading through the Hero of Ages again, I started wondering why Vin would be uneasy about seeing Hoid. I noticed though that there were other times that her emotions had been influenced by what Ruin was thinking. Maybe it was Ruin that didn't want her to meet up with Hoid. This would mean that either Ruin knew who Hoid was or there was something about Hoid that was different then the normal inhabitants. So, is there anything to the theory?
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Hoid is bound to a Shard of Adonalsium, so its possible Ruin could sense him.
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Is it 100 percent proven that Hoid is bound to a shard?
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Ben said he was, and I seem to remember that Ben said Brandon told him that. (But that it was a while back and he couldn't remember the exact details.)
I asked Brandon something about Hoid a few months ago, and he asked if I really wanted to know. I said that I didn't. It's better to find out as you read the books, you know?
(Though I have a sudden urge to do a word search in WoK.)
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(Though I have a sudden urge to do a word search in WoK.)
Do! And then make sure you tell us what's there. ;D
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I didn't read it, but I did take note of how many pages it appears on. I think the scene is longer than the one in Warbreaker. (Hard to tell due to page count translation.)
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You looked and didn't read it?? That's some serious willpower...
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I have years of practice. There are some things I appreciate more by savoring them while waiting for the right time. (Of course, this only works if you know ahead of time for sure that it's something you're going to enjoy. If you're wrong it can backfire bigtime. But I'm not wrong about Brandon's writing.)
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I loved the book, particularly the ending. I thought it felt just right for the series.
I plowed through the whole thread (OK, I was skimming some of the posts), but I wondered some things regarding the atium which I don't think has been discussed:
1. Why did the lord ruler stock-pile the atium? Given that Ruin wanted the cache it seems that it would have been wiser to make sure the atium was burned rather quickly, to protect it from Ruin's reach. (Was he influenced by Ruin maybe?)
2. What happens to the atium when burned? Does the amount of burned atium affect the amount "regenerated" in the Pits?
3. I guess that the total amount of atium in the world is limited. If the answer to 2 is yes, this seems to indicate that the stockpiling means that the amount of atium regenerated is much smaller than would otherwise be the case. If true, this also indicates that stock-piling is a bad idea.
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Let me try to answer your questions...
1. TLR stock-piled the atium to keep it away from Ruin. If he just let it grow in the Hathsin Pits, than Ruin would've known right where to find it, and he would've been much harder to defeat.
2. The atium slowly does dribble back to the Pits, but it takes about a hundred years.
3. Yes it is limited, because Ruin's influence is limited. TLR wants there to be a small amount of atium. He keeps a little bit in the market to keep his power, but the rest goes to the Trustwarren to keep out of the hands of Ruin.
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Here's my question. How would Ruin "get" the atium and what exactly would he do with it? what did he have to do once he "got" it to gain its power?
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Here's my question. How would Ruin "get" the atium and what exactly would he do with it? what did he have to do once he "got" it to gain its power?
Ruin would influence people into taking the atium; and once it is in the hands of people, the nature of atium is such that it causes conflict, for a few reasons:
1. It is very valuable AND useful, and there is not enough to go around (mostly because the Mistborn and Seers use it all up). So if someone else has it, you want it, whether that's because you want to burn it or because you want to sell it. Either way, in many cases, this leads to violence and destruction.
2. Atium as a feruchemical bracelet (an Atiummind) stores age, and generally the people who would use it for this purpose are the type of people who would tend to cause violence.
3. In an allomantic battle, atium makes it much more likely for one person to beat the other (rather that it ending in someone running away). Whoever has less atium dies, basically.
Hope that helped.
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Here's my question. How would Ruin "get" the atium and what exactly would he do with it? what did he have to do once he "got" it to gain its power?
Ruin would influence people into taking the atium; and once it is in the hands of people, the nature of atium is such that it causes conflict, for a few reasons:
1. It is very valuable AND useful, and there is not enough to go around (mostly because the Mistborn and Seers use it all up). So if someone else has it, you want it, whether that's because you want to burn it or because you want to sell it. Either way, in many cases, this leads to violence and destruction.
2. Atium as a feruchemical bracelet (an Atiummind) stores age, and generally the people who would use it for this purpose are the type of people who would tend to cause violence.
3. In an allomantic battle, atium makes it much more likely for one person to beat the other (rather that it ending in someone running away). Whoever has less atium dies, basically.
Hope that helped.
People already use atium, so if the whole point is to cause conflict then Ruin can already do that. Atium is Ruin's body, so I think once Ruin found the stockpile he would have his body back and be able to influence the world in more direct and less subtle ways.
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People already use atium, so if the whole point is to cause conflict then Ruin can already do that. Atium is Ruin's body, so I think once Ruin found the stockpile he would have his body back and be able to influence the world in more direct and less subtle ways.
That was the way I understood it too.
1. TLR stock-piled the atium to keep it away from Ruin. If he just let it grow in the Hathsin Pits, than Ruin would've known right where to find it, and he would've been much harder to defeat.
2. The atium slowly does dribble back to the Pits, but it takes about a hundred years.
3. Yes it is limited, because Ruin's influence is limited. TLR wants there to be a small amount of atium. He keeps a little bit in the market to keep his power, but the rest goes to the Trustwarren to keep out of the hands of Ruin.
Yeah, I forgot that the Trustwarren was covered in metal (meaning that Ruin couldn't detect it).
I still think it would have been smarter to consume the atium as soon as possible. If it takes a couple of hundred years to dribble back to the pits, Ruin can't access most of it anyway. Of course, that does not prevent some noble to stockpile it which may be the reason he did it (although it would be hard for the nobles to stockpile any significant amount as long as TLR control the Pits).
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i believe the process would be sped up by said consumption... it i a natural power that must re assert itself
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I was under the impression that Ruin needed a major power boost and the Atium would do just that since it was his body. I think he needed that boost so he could finish destroying the world.
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I think this question has to do with the Balance between Ruin and Preservation. Even dead, Preservation still opposed Ruin and kept his destruction from happening in a single blink of power. Ruin needed his body to tip the power to the point where he could easily overwhelm Preservation, who was weak from giving his soul to mankind.
From Ruin's behavior, I think we can say that a directly controlled minion could give Ruin access to his body, but that he would need to absorb most of it in order to actually get the power he was seeking. (This last bit is needed to explain why Marsh' small piece of Atium wasn't enough to satisfy Ruin.)
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Great series!
And great suprises, the less suprising twists too.
The ending is as it should be, even a bit too picturesque-happy-ending like for me (I mean their bodies on the flowerfield, Saze mentioning talking with them in the afterlife... twice... a bit too much.). I'm absolutely OK with Vin and Elend dead and really happy that others survived.
But Sazed was my favorite character, so I may be biased.
Kandra are cool, I want more of TenSoon and MeLaan in the sequel (hope they are still immortal?). They will make a cute couple.
Marsh - I also want him in the sequel. Especially because of his numerous misfortunes in Mistborn (his brother got the girl, she died for him, he fulfilled her dream, Marsh became a mind-controlled monster and couldn't help it, got kicked by Vin, kicked by Elend, spared by Elend... and left like that. Sucks to be him.). And because of his cool Hemalurgic powers, too. :D
One of my big theories: contrary to what Sazed said, I still think that Feruchemy is of Preservation, and Allomancy of both. Why?
First - Preservation is not creation. It's keeping things as they are. That is why he needed to cooperate with Ruin to create. So Allomancy (positive balance) is of creation, therefore of both powers. Of Preservation is Feruchemy, which does exactly that - keeps things. Doesn't increase power, doesn't decrease power... just keeps things as they are.
Second, psychological, argument. The kandra claim to be of Preservation. The (modern) Terrismen, with similar attitude (very Conservative and lawful) are, in my opinion, also connected with Preservation. Both ancient and modern Terrisians are Feruchemists. Well, not all of them, but it's their national Metallic Art.
Allomancers tend to be much more dynamic and brutal, partially because their powers are more combat-oriented.
Allomancy is bestowed by larasium, true (however, there have been some Mistings before Ascension, not necessary because their great-...-great grandpas had used larasium). But it's mostly used to kill things, so it kind of balances itself.
Another reason - Snapping. If Allomancy was of Preservation, why would it need an extreme pain to awake? I don't know how Feruchemy first manifests, but from no mention of it in the books I guess it's rather peaceful.
OK - Preservation did Snap people (he was mad, however) so he may not be as nice as the name suggests.
However - the mist "liking" Allomancy and (probably) not reacting to Feruchemy is hard to explain with this hypothesis. And probably somewhere on the forum it is officially said that Saze was right...
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Sazed isn't guessing when he says that. It's from one of the chapter blurbs which were all written by Sazed after his ascension to godhood. He had definitive knowledge of the subject granted directly by possession of the full power of both Ruin and Preservation.
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Yes. And still there are things he does not know. And with Allomancy - Preservation he sounds a bit like guessing, not knowing. I'm not sure if Metallic Arts were created by P&R or did they just emerge somehow. And if the latter option is true, it is possible that Saze does not know everything about them.
Of course, you are probably right. I'm just hypothesising.
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Yes. And still there are things he does not know. And with Allomancy - Preservation he sounds a bit like guessing, not knowing. I'm not sure if Metallic Arts were created by P&R or did they just emerge somehow. And if the latter option is true, it is possible that Saze does not know everything about them.
Of course, you are probably right. I'm just hypothesising.
I would assume that allomantic powers are just kinda like... building blocks of the universe. They're innate laws, like gravity and the conservation of energy.
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I'll go ahead and leave out the obligatory "Sanderson is great" comments, since they are pretty ubiquitous, and I'll jump straight to the questions (despite no responses here for quite a while :( [and yes, I understand that he's juggling a lot. I"m just pointing out it's been a few months since a post from him on this thread :-\]). I had a lot of questions, but I've forgotten most of them after working through all of these pages >.< so I'll just post the ones I do remember and come back to add more if they come back to me:
1) It was stated in FE that if a nobleman slept with a skaa woman, she had to be killed before she came to term. However, what happened with the reverse? What if a noblewoman took a skaa man to her bed? One could assume that such events wouldn't happen, but white women slept with black slaves during our own unfortunate period in history when the US had them, despite the illegality (and often lynching of both involved parties), though it is common knowledge that male slave owners slept with their female slaves much more. So, logically, it must have happened at least once in a thousand years. What then? Was the noblewoman killed, just as the skaa woman would be? I would think yes, but hey, it's worth an ask.
2) I was also mildly curious as to what the respective reproductivity of the nobles vs the skaa. It was mentioned that skaa had lots and lots of children, and that nobles were (rumored, at least) to have trouble having children. I was curious whether the change was in the males, the females, or both? Would a nobleman/skaa woman coupling be more productive than noblewoman/skaa man pair, or vice versa? Or would they be equal? Just a minor thought.
3) If Ruin could not even see metal, or what was written on it, how was he able to alter what was stored within metal Feruchemically? (This was already asked, but I felt it worth another mention :))
The others will be added as/if I remember them :)
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1) My guesses:
- it didn't happen (or it was rare and such women were killed for perversion or something), or
- the baby was killed (before or after birth)
3) Maybe he perceived it somehow? Not the metal, but the feruchemical charge.
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1) I think it probably did happen numerous times during the Final Empire era, but in most cases probably the noblewomen "got away with it", i.e. the husband was not aware of it and the child was raised as a nobleman's son. Granted, if the noblewoman often slept with skaa men (or one man in particular) it would probably create rumours, possibly causing ministry (or husbandry) action.
I don't remember whether the books mentioned any instance of this happening, I have a vague feeling that this may be the case.
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First - Preservation is not creation. It's keeping things as they are. That is why he needed to cooperate with Ruin to create. So Allomancy (positive balance) is of creation, therefore of both powers. Of Preservation is Feruchemy, which does exactly that - keeps things. Doesn't increase power, doesn't decrease power... just keeps things as they are.
Second, psychological, argument. The kandra claim to be of Preservation. The (modern) Terrismen, with similar attitude (very Conservative and lawful) are, in my opinion, also connected with Preservation. Both ancient and modern Terrisians are Feruchemists. Well, not all of them, but it's their national Metallic Art.
Allomancers tend to be much more dynamic and brutal, partially because their powers are more combat-oriented.
Allomancy is bestowed by larasium, true (however, there have been some Mistings before Ascension, not necessary because their great-...-great grandpas had used larasium). But it's mostly used to kill things, so it kind of balances itself.
Another reason - Snapping. If Allomancy was of Preservation, why would it need an extreme pain to awake? I don't know how Feruchemy first manifests, but from no mention of it in the books I guess it's rather peaceful.
OK - Preservation did Snap people (he was mad, however) so he may not be as nice as the name suggests.
I would say that Preservation doesn't just 'preserve'; while he doesn't create, he DOES change things in order to max out their capabilities. This is how Allomancy is - metals are 'burned' and changed into certain abilities. No creation - just transformation.
Also, I don't see how Ruin and Preservation could work together to create. Neither one knows how to create - even together it would not be possible.
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Allomancy is not creation and only someone who is ignorant of the definition would say it was (if you feel that those words were harsh don't there is no crime in ignorance unless it's willfull) you could apply both definition 1 and 4 to so here they are 1. the act of producing or causing to exist 4. the original bringing into existence of the universe by God. meaning to create it must be from nothing...on scardiel metal is power and the three metallic arts are merely the utilization of the power already in the metals
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I have read the third book now (I think in mentioned it in another topic, but commenting on my thoughts obviously better fits here.)
I realize I have no proof of this, but I figured out a few of the plot twists the very first time they were hinted at in this book, and one of them, perhaps, in the last book.
I think it was during the last book that I started thinking that Vin's extra abilities (pierce copper clouds, for example) came from her earring, and this book only made it more plain. But I did not comprehend the exact reason for it until the book explained it. (The third magic system, which I would ruin the spelling of, so I will only refer to it as the third system.)
On the other hand, there were bits that I missed. Despite realizing that Zane was being spoken to and affected by Ruin (though not by name at the time) in the second book, and seeing the same thing happen to Spook in the third book, I did not catch on to Vin's brother's voice being the same thing, until it was specifically spelled out. I just plain did not make the connection.
I enjoyed the book quite a bit. I accepted the sacrifices at the end of it, though it would have been nice if Vin and Elend could have had more time together. It worked well enough that it didn't upset me, like it did some.
On the other hand, I did not find it to be as incredible as people seemed to think I would. To me, it did not transcend any of the other things Brandon has written, or elevate this above all his other works. It was a good conclusion, and a good story, and another in the line of books that convince me that I want to read everything Brandon writes unless and until he starts disappointing me.
It was a very enjoyable story among all of his other very enjoyable stories.
But now I will be looking forward to Way of Kings.
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I still think it would have been smarter to consume the atium as soon as possible. If it takes a couple of hundred years to dribble back to the pits, Ruin can't access most of it anyway. Of course, that does not prevent some noble to stockpile it which may be the reason he did it (although it would be hard for the nobles to stockpile any significant amount as long as TLR control the Pits).
I absolutely agree. Even if he knew that all the atium was in the Pits, think about how much effort goes in to getting it out. There's no way Ruin could take possession of his body if it was distributed in little dribbles all through the Pits - unless being in the Pits counts as being "together" enough for him to get his body back.
And as for atium being immensely (monetarily) valuable - really, it was only as valuable as it was because TLR created an artificial shortage. Think about diamonds in our universe. True, it's much easier to control the supply of atium, but that doesn't rule out doing the same for other commodities.
Although I suppose having atium freely available would kind of disable the Mistborn - at least in one-on-one fights. If everyone has atium, well...
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I'm wondering about TLR and hemalurgy [Hemalurgy: ACUPUNCTURE OF THE DAMNED :P] . Did he actually not know that it was Ruin's tool? He'd been fighting Ruin for a thousand years; I don't believe that he wouldn't have figured it out in all that time. He certainly wasn't ignorant of it (I'm assuming he created or at least approved of the Steel Inquisitors.)
Also, Vin's earring. Did her mother actually kill her baby sister with it? Talented woman...
I'm wondering, too, why it didn't decay when out of her body. Unless her sister was so strong that even decayed, it was still enough for her to find the Well.
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So look at it this way. TLR created inquisitors as his tool right? He used them as his Gestapo in controlling the Final Empire. Also he never completed them. He held back additional spikes and powers from them to keep them within his control. Just like all the creatures he created, there was a fail safe. I'm assuming that TLR held back the additional spikes because he was wary of Ruin's influence. He was obviously aware that Ruin could still do some things even though he was imprisoned (hence the caches and the notes in steel). By only allowing the inquisitors to have only so much power he made it possible for himself to intercede should Ruin ever gain enough influence to take control of an inquisitor. Pull the lynchpin and the Inq. is done for. You can see the changes in the Inq.s between books two and three. In WoA the Inq.s all had the same pins and the same abilities (undercontrol of TLR). In HoA the Inq.s began to get additional pins making them stronger and more powerful, they also added protective plates to protect weaknesses (under control of Ruin).
As to Vin's earring. I think that her mother used it on Vin's sister during the murder. I'm not sure if it was the murder weapon. That would take talent.
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Mm, ok, so he judged it an acceptable risk. I'd believe that. And the kandra and koloss really didn't turn out so badly despite being made from hemalurgy.
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Also, Vin's earring. Did her mother actually kill her baby sister with it? Talented woman...
I'm wondering, too, why it didn't decay when out of her body. Unless her sister was so strong that even decayed, it was still enough for her to find the Well.
Yes, Vin's mother, at Ruin's pushing, killed Vin's sister, who was a Seeker. Her mother then (I would presume fairly quickly) gave it to Vin as a gift.
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Oh yes, I know she killed Vin's sister, but did she kill her with the earring? Inquiring minds want to know.
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The earring was certainly involved! But who knows if it was actually the killing blow.
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Isn't it one of the rules of Hemalurgy that the metal involved has to kill the victim? And be driven through their heart?
Vin's mother was just very precise, I think.
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She was under the influence of Ruin much more than Vin ever was, so it's entirely possible that Ruin was able to somehow make sure that her sister was stabbed precisely.
Does the spike have to kill the person instantly, just cause their death, or (if it only has to cause it) be in the person when they die?
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The Hemalurgic spike only needs to pierce the correct spiritual pressure point to steal the information desired. It is not always directly in the heart. I could think of some cases where the victim might live. Though, I also wouldn't be surprised if all of those "spiritual pressure points" were in deadly points, knowing Ruin and his desire for destruction.
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I think that hemalurgic spikes can only take the power if the person dies. Otherwise, it would not be the power of Ruin. The hemalurgic spike steals the life out the person as they die, and stores it in the spike. Or at least that's how I think of it.
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No, the killing spike must kill the victim by piercing their heart to harvest Hemalurgic ability. Every example we have from the books (At least in HoA, pages 16, 131, and 243 in the hardback.) specifically mention the killing spike being driven through the heart or chest. It is only when the spike is used to endow Hemalurgic talent that the bind points come into play.
And in the heading of chapter 73, it says that Vin's Hemalurgic spike was used to kill Vin's sister, thus imbuing it with the added power in Bronze.
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Here's something i never really got
When you pull a metal towards you where does it go? directly to your head, chest, stomach?
'course i also have a lot of shards question but i'm just going to get a RAFO anyway >.>
and
If you are a tineye (just an example) could you take pewter and burn the tin in it? since pewter has tin anyway
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Czanos you are mistaken Marsh specifically states that the placement of the piercing and its material depend on what ability is being stolen. Though the spike steals the part of preservation that gives Scardiel inhabitants their soul it most likely is deadly in all aspects.
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When you pull a metal it goes toward your center of gravity.
An alloy has to be the exact right percentage (assumedly within a small margin of error) for you to use it and get the right effect. Tineyes wouldn't be able to see pewter as a resource at all.
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In Hemalurgy, there are two subjects. There is the one you are stealing the power from (The victim) and the one you are giving the power to (The endowed). When stealing powers from the victim, the metal spike must be driven through their heart and kill them, absorbing their spirit. Only when it comes time to endow the power does the position of the piercing matter, hence why Inquisitors and Kandra (And presumably Koloss) always have their spikes in the same places.
Unless you can find an example from the text or Brandon where a Hemalurgic victim is killed in some way other than a metal spike through their heart, I'm going to have to stick with my side.
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newbie alert! I've read Elantris and the Mistborn trilogy and missed the Hoid thing completely. However, now that I have been perusing the questions and observations in this thread, is it possible that Hoid may be the Creator? The being the "shards" are derived from? He/it/she could be in a weakened state due to being divided amongst many different worlds in the form of shards and can only observe and provide subtle "nudges" through affecting emotions. Just a thought. Has this been brought up before?
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He is connected to a shard nothing more
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Thank you :)
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Erm, right then. Here's a question that's been bugging me for some time. If it's already been covered somewhere in the 700+ topics in this forum, point me in the right direction.
As a fan from California, I am unable to obtain Dragonsteel or any other BYU-exclusive material of yours, so I can only understand from my moderate lurking how the cosmology of your universe works. As far as I can tell, there was a supreme deity of some sort, Adonalsium, whose name I suspect is derived from the Hebrew "Adonai." Adonalsium was split by something (or did he split himself?) into 16 "shards," like Ruin, Preservation, and possibly Austre, and these shard-gods are what actually created the various worlds of your universe. (Please, somebody tell me if I got that all correctly.)
Anyway, the focus of my question is beings connected to shards, like Hoid. Is Sazed also one of these beings now? He wasn't the original Ruin or Preservation, but he wields the powers of both. Did Hoid gain his powers in a similar fashion to Sazed? Indeed, can we expect to see planet-hopping Sazed cameos?
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Brandon has stated on the B&N Q&A he had a few months ago that the Voice from Warbreaker is a Shard, and its name is Endowment.
As for things being connected to Shards, my current theory is that being under a Shard's influence will slowly alter the mind of the holder. That is, of course, rampant speculation.
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Erm, right then. Here's a question that's been bugging me for some time. If it's already been covered somewhere in the 700+ topics in this forum, point me in the right direction.
As a fan from California, I am unable to obtain Dragonsteel or any other BYU-exclusive material of yours, so I can only understand from my moderate lurking how the cosmology of your universe works. As far as I can tell, there was a supreme deity of some sort, Adonalsium, whose name I suspect is derived from the Hebrew "Adonai." Adonalsium was split by something (or did he split himself?) into 16 "shards," like Ruin, Preservation, and possibly Austre, and these shard-gods are what actually created the various worlds of your universe. (Please, somebody tell me if I got that all correctly.)
Anyway, the focus of my question is beings connected to shards, like Hoid. Is Sazed also one of these beings now? He wasn't the original Ruin or Preservation, but he wields the powers of both. Did Hoid gain his powers in a similar fashion to Sazed? Indeed, can we expect to see planet-hopping Sazed cameos?
This speculation is interesting, but I've seen hints in some of his comments that the story is much larger than this, somehow.
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As far as I can tell, there was a supreme deity of some sort, Adonalsium, whose name I suspect is derived from the Hebrew "Adonai."
I also suspected that derivation. On the other hand, something ending in -ium makes me think of it as a substance or object, not a being. I think it could go either way.
That is suspicious, now that you mention it. Perhaps Adonalsium was some sort of primordial substance, from which the shards were made?
Eh, I think I'm speculating too much now.
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Not too surprising, really, given that the two known Shards refer to their "bodies" as atium and lerasium. "Adonalsium" may very well be the "body of God."
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-ium denotes a metal. As does the use of the word "shards", which also specifies that it has a well-bonded structure; calcium, for example, crumbles rather than shattering.
Dragonsteel could be related, but I doubt it. Then again, Brandon's stated perspective on fantasy is "why not?", so can we really expect him to keep dragons out of such a huge universe? :P Of course, that begs the question of what exactly Dragonsteel is (if it isn't Adonalsium).
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Dragonsteel is like the liquid that was in the Well of Ascension.
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Dragonsteel is like the liquid that was in the Well of Ascension.
Interesting, interesting :)
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All y'all know more than I do 'bout this stuff. Makes me want to re-read all of BS' stuff over again. ;D
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-ium denotes a metal.
True, but the rule does have notable exceptions within BS's work. Khlennium, for example, was the name of a whole country, so it couldn't be that far-fetched for the name of a god to have the same suffix.
(I know this comes a month after the fact, but my internet access is sporadic at best. Apologies.)
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But that city was mentioned in the Mistborn series, so it's entirely possible that Khlennium is a material as well. Of course, it's also possible that everything has metallic sounding names because of the importance of metals.
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Ok, I've been reading through this forum off and on for probably a month now, so forgive me if my question has already been asked, but all these posts are sort of melting together lately.
In any case, if Marsh were to stay alive forever, wouldn't he need a whole lot of atium? or at least a good amount to get himself started? Also, has Brandon shown up on this site at all recently? I could understand why not, but if anyone has heard from him, I really want to hear some of his awesome insights. No matter what topic they're on.
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Ok, I've been reading through this forum off and on for probably a month now, so forgive me if my question has already been asked, but all these posts are sort of melting together lately.
In any case, if Marsh were to stay alive forever, wouldn't he need a whole lot of atium? or at least a good amount to get himself started? Also, has Brandon shown up on this site at all recently? I could understand why not, but if anyone has heard from him, I really want to hear some of his awesome insights. No matter what topic they're on.
Marsh has been asked and answered a couple of times now. Basically, Marsh was incredibly lucky, and at the end of HoA had all the Atium the Kandra tried to sell. Because he doesn't actually need that much to get the trick to work, he will technically not be immortal, but easily has enough to pull another 1000 years, at least.
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Brandon may stop by after Way of Kings is released, but he'd have to RAFO a ton since that's just the first book in a long series. He did answer a lot of questions at the beginning of this thread, but he hasn't been back in a while because the forum can be very distracting. The most interaction you can get online with Brandon right now is on Facebook, but people don't post spoiler theories there.
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Cool, thanks guys. Sorry to ask that question again. It had been on my mind since the beginning, and by the time I got to the end I could hardly remember anything about it for some reason.
Also, is Way of Kings closer than I expected? I thought he wasn't doing that for years or something.
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1st book comes out in like the late fall/ early winter of 2011 or something like that
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I suppose that Ruin could've if he wanted to. After all, he showed (ahh! Brain blank!) Vin's brother to Vin, and Kelsier to Spook.
But wait, they only saw him because of their spikes! Maybe it's because the mist is a gaseous physical form of Preservation's power, so while there isn't something really there, his attention? conciousness? attracts the mists so you can vaguely see him.
Then again, how was Vin able to show herself to Elend when she was a Shard? Is it because of their connection? Or were other people able to see?
Anywho, answer/comment on the HoA thread.
Preservation could talk into minds if it wanted to. Vin, as such, could show herself to Elend. It just requires Preservation to expend its power.
Ruin, on the other hand, was quite busy. In the prison, his influence was very small, so his Hemalurgic spikes were the most effective means to communicate. At the end of the world, he was busy doing a lot of other things, so Hemalurgy still was the most effective.
I would assume that it would ostensibly be possible for Ruin to communicate to people without spikes, like Preservation. In fact, we know that it's possible Ruin can do so. He was able to convince Zane and Vin's mom to spike themselves.
To gods, it's all a matter of energy. Ruin knew how to utilize his power most efficiently, as he was accustomed to the power. Vin, however, did not, so she brandished far more wildly.
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Humans, or whatever the race is called, have part of preservation in them which probably makes it easier for Vin to commune with them than it would be for Ati.
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Humans, or whatever the race is called, have part of preservation in them which probably makes it easier for Vin to commune with them than it would be for Ati.
That too.
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1st book comes out in like the late fall/ early winter of 2011 or something like that
Actually it should come out in 2010, a month or two before Towers of Midnight. Then the 2nd book won't come out until Oct/Nov 2012.
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Sweet!!!!
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Hey all, I'm new here, I've been reading through the last 15 or so pages of this topic(sorry, i don't have time to read all 61 pages unfortunately)...
maybe there's a good explanation for this but I've not noticed it. now I have read and know that atium is of Ruin's body, and lerasium is of Preservation's body.. is it just me, or is there a feeling of inconsistency in that Preservation's body grants allomancy(the use of all 16 allomantic metals) where as ruin's body is one of those metals? it seems almost to imply a sense that Preservation has on an elemental level a mastery/control over Ruin?? was there ever an explanation for why their body's when ingested interact with humans in this manner?
side thought: kandra and koloss clearly have metabolisms, if one of them were to somehow get ahold of a bead of lerasium, would they become allomancers aswell if they ate it?
i saw someone ask in one of the later pages why preservation would want vin to kill the lord ruler, i viewed it as, preservation set this huge scheme into motion thousands(millions?) of years ago when he first created humans. he always intended for humans to be the eventual destroyers of Ruin, and when preservation chose Vin as a new vessel, it was all part of the plan to achieve that goal.
in other posts i saw debate over why the lord ruler would stockpile atium and not just burn it right away... from what i had gathered, the lord ruler, while always hoping he'd be able to regain preservation's power through the well, never really expected to and that everything he did was planning so as humanity post-lord ruler could combat Ruin. and this extends to having the kandra stockpile it. having kept the majority of it together and unburnt, it then won't over hundreds of years regen in the pits, this way if he dies, who ever follows him can find it and deal with it as soon as they find it, as opposed to finding out they have to wait hundreds of years for it to return(which would give ruin ample time to dispose of them, or just wait them out till they die and he can go get his body unopposed).
I think Ruin wanted the aitum to destroy Preservation, what could be more important to a god-being modeled after the concept of Ruin than the destroy another god-like being of essentially equal power. but until he had his body back, he was still stalemated. and the lord ruler having the kandra put the aitum inside the huge metal lined vault and then all killing themselves(losing sentience, same dif. in this situation) would leave the aitum virtually unfindable, so Ruin would have destroyed the planet and his own body with it?
and one other question i saw that i don't think was expressly answered, someone asked about how the lord ruler didn't know that the creatures he made were of ruin... but he did, as some stated, keep them from their full potential knowing that ruin might someday take control of them so he kept them all with fail safes(and in the inquisitors, even a death pin)... but even beyond this, the lord ruler not only knew that they were of ruin, but he used that to his advantage. The person that asked about it seemed to completely forget/disregard the point made in the book that he made the Kandra as his spies, but not just spies against his humanly enemies, but as double agents that Ruin would always think were his to control when he needed. Ruin claimed that he told Rashek about Hemalurgy knowing he'd make weapons for him... and this is just speculation, but when if Preservation also whispered in his ear letting him know how he could make the Kandra more than just future tools for Ruin.
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Leras gave up it's "mind" to imprison Ati... so Leras could not have whispered anything into Rashek's ear. We really don't understand Atium... which i'm sure is on purpose. Ruin is stronger than Preservation b/c the creation of man stole part of Leras's power. Being "atuned" to preservation gives man the ability to use allomancy so i doubt kandra and koloos can become allomancers.
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Leras gave up it's "mind" to imprison Ati... so Leras could not have whispered anything into Rashek's ear. We really don't understand Atium... which i'm sure is on purpose. Ruin is stronger than Preservation b/c the creation of man stole part of Leras's power. Being "atuned" to preservation gives man the ability to use allomancy so i doubt kandra and koloos can become allomancers.
that didn't stop Leras from communicating with Elend.. clearly he didn't give up himself entirely, some small fraction remained, and that fraction finally died when it exposed itself to Elend and answered afew of his questions. at that point it could no longer even speak, but when we turn back the clock a thousand years, maybe Leras could have given the lord ruler the slightest hint. I'm not trying to say this is what had to happen, I'm just saying maybe it could be another subtle little thing that Leras did to ensure his plan worked.
the piece of preservation inside all humans was put there to make them (if i'm remembering it right, which i may very well be entirely wrong) able to be sentient and feel emotions right? both kandra and koloss share those same traits.. but only through the spikes... wait wait, are the power of the spikes Ruin's warped version/opposite to the power of Preservation inside all humans?
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I believe the explanation for kandra/ koloss souls's is that they are stolen humans souls that have been thoughly twisted and that corruption prevents them from using allomancy (Peter will correct me if i'm wrong). Also it is my understanding that Leras was in the same state we saw him in as the "mist ghost" ever since forming Ati's prison, & when you use the word whisper it makes me think of speach not communication via gestures/ hints.
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The way I see it is the Spikes steal the part of Preservation that makes people sentient and sticks it into Kandra. Ruins taint here is balanced with Preservation's sentient gift
Koloss Spikes, however, 'steel' (hehe) human physical strength, and stick it in humans.
Inquisitor Spikes take the Allomancy from humans and stick it in humans.
Now writing it down, I see another correlation.
Kandra spikes- Sentience- Cognitive Realm
Inquisitor spikes- Allomancy/Feurchemy- Spiritual Realm?
Koloss Spikes- Strength- Physical Realm
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fair enough i suppose, though it was flat out said that Leras was losing more and more stability/sentience/power(idk what the right word is here) as he kept appearing for Elend and Vin, where at first he was able to effect and even stab elend, and at the end he was capable of no more than forming a figure in the mists, and even that became too much...
when reading HoA, Human always gave me the chills when he spoke about being human and taking their place. I know that was used in the story to get vin to eventually realize that the Koloss are made from humans, but through the whole last book i had hoped there was some further foreshadowing going on there. but it's been said that the Koloss inside the Homeland when Sazed remade the world survived right? so maybe there is still some distant future foreshadowing going on there
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Brandon said somewhere, I can't even remember where or under what circumstances, maybe even this very thread, that Sazed gave the Koloss true sentience. So eventually I guess they wind up side by side rather than one taking the other's place. But who knows what the future might hold. ;)
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ahh, ok thank you. I'd not seen that comment. I've only seen it said that they survived and were transformed so as to be able to reproduce as a real species.
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From earlier in this thread, from EUOL:
The Kandra.
Yes, they live. The people were smart enough, eventually, to replace their spikes. (And there were a couple who were on assignment who made it to storage caches.)
However, there will likely never be any more of them, since Hemalurgy is required to make them. They are now some of the few people who can communicate directly with Sazed, who--like Ruin--can whisper to people most easily when they are connected to him via spikes. With some speculation, you can probably guess what kind of roles the Kandra will end up playing in future books.
And for Koloss:
There ARE still koloss around, though many of them were vaporized. Human is alive. Sazed took pity on them, however, and they have been transformed. They are now a race that breeds true, like the Kandra, and have different thought processes from what they once had. You'll see more of them in the sequel series.
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Ok, so "different thought processes" doesn't exactly equal "true sentience." :P Oh well.
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Ok, so "different thought processes" doesn't exactly equal "true sentience." :P Oh well.
I actually interpret this as meaning "Not just bored or enraged killing machines." I suspect they actually act more human now, or are at least less dangerous.
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So I finished Mistborn a couple weeks ago and just now finished reading through this thread. I have a question that I don't think has been asked before. It's related to the ending. I'll try to explain concisely:
1. Ati and Leras are presumably "alive." That is, they had bodies, took the power, and their bodies went poof, like Vin. Or they always had the power, but that seems unlikely to me (not the point of this question, though).
2. Dead people hanging around in the middle world (who haven't entered the Beyond yet) can use the powers...right? Kelsier was able to talk to Spook, and if I remember right it has been said that he did so using Preservation's power. If this isn't true the whole thing falls apart.
3. So. When Vin kills Ruin, shouldn't he be able to take his power back? Clearly not. Doesn't that, then, mean that his consciousness is in some greater way destroyed? (Also that the same happened to Leras when Ruin finally smothered him.) Wouldn't that mean that Vin's was as well, and she can't be around in the afterlife? Or did the bit...oddly enough...of Ruin in her (humans have both) protect her somehow? Or something.
...This question/theory has more holes in it than I thought before I started writing it down. Still, thoughts?
Regarding the ending itself...Vin was AWESOME and I would have liked to see her live, but I'm not like totally enraged by the ending the way it is. Sazed makes sense as God, and of course that was foreshadowed from the very beginning...not that I figured it out... :)
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So I finished Mistborn a couple weeks ago and just now finished reading through this thread. I have a question that I don't think has been asked before. It's related to the ending. I'll try to explain concisely:
1. Ati and Leras are presumably "alive." That is, they had bodies, took the power, and their bodies went poof, like Vin. Or they always had the power, but that seems unlikely to me (not the point of this question, though).
2. Dead people hanging around in the middle world (who haven't entered the Beyond yet) can use the powers...right? Kelsier was able to talk to Spook, and if I remember right it has been said that he did so using Preservation's power. If this isn't true the whole thing falls apart.
3. So. When Vin kills Ruin, shouldn't he be able to take his power back? Clearly not. Doesn't that, then, mean that his consciousness is in some greater way destroyed? (Also that the same happened to Leras when Ruin finally smothered him.) Wouldn't that mean that Vin's was as well, and she can't be around in the afterlife? Or did the bit...oddly enough...of Ruin in her (humans have both) protect her somehow? Or something.
...This question/theory has more holes in it than I thought before I started writing it down. Still, thoughts?
Regarding the ending itself...Vin was AWESOME and I would have liked to see her live, but I'm not like totally enraged by the ending the way it is. Sazed makes sense as God, and of course that was foreshadowed from the very beginning...not that I figured it out... :)
1) We're not entirely certain of the nature and history of the Shards of Adonalsium (beings like Ruin and Preservation). That said, we can't know whether Ruin or Preservation's power was always attached to Ati and Leras, or if it was passed on to them at some point.
2) "Kelsier" was actually Ruin appearing to Spook. Note that Spook only hears him after he's been "spiked" with the pewter sword, and stops hearing him after he pulls the sword's tip out. There aren't any dead people hanging around in the world of the living, as far as we know.
3) As I understand it, Vin's consciousness entirely inhabits Preservation's power, much like Leras's did. Ruin and Preservation are exact opposites, so when Vin destroys him, she gets killed as well. Since she ends up hanging around in the afterlife, this means the same is probably true of Ati. We don't really have anything to prove otherwise.
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1) We're not entirely certain of the nature and history of the Shards of Adonalsium (beings like Ruin and Preservation). That said, we can't know whether Ruin or Preservation's power was always attached to Ati and Leras, or if it was passed on to them at some point.
2) "Kelsier" was actually Ruin appearing to Spook. Note that Spook only hears him after he's been "spiked" with the pewter sword, and stops hearing him after he pulls the sword's tip out. There aren't any dead people hanging around in the world of the living, as far as we know.
3) As I understand it, Vin's consciousness entirely inhabits Preservation's power, much like Leras's did. Ruin and Preservation are exact opposites, so when Vin destroys him, she gets killed as well. Since she ends up hanging around in the afterlife, this means the same is probably true of Ati. We don't really have anything to prove otherwise.
1. Right.
2. Kelsier was Ruin...most of the time. The actual Kelsier says 3 things, though, and I'm wondering how exactly he did it.
For those of you protesting Kell having been part of a shard, Brandon stated in the Q&A that between Leras' death and Vin's ascension, Kelsier took some degree of control over Preservation's power. Not as much as Vin, I would guess, but enough that he was able to get through to Spook a couple of times.
I can't remember what the 3 things are. They're somewhere in this thread but I couldn't find them with search. Any way to search by formatting? I remember they were in italics, and that combined with keywords would find them...
So that is the problem—why couldn't Ati/Ruin do the same with his own power (gaining limited control over it)—and for that matter Vin, to match him—or did Sazed simply take the power before Ruin could gather his mind, which was presumably quite shocked by what Vin did?
And why wasn't it mentioned that Ruin is still around, just powerless? Or was he, perhaps, so mentally broken by his defeat that he found himself in the Beyond and can't get back without his power? Just speculating, now...
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I think that you have to have a physical body to take possession of either ruin/preservation. All the examples we have seen of people gaining control of the power have had bodies. Also, the fact that Ruin was searching for his body (atium) supports the importance of the physical realm.
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Kel's ghost seized Preservation for a brief period of time before Vin.
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Nice.
Brandon, I had never read anything by your until last year when Gathering Storm came out. I really liked it, and was glad to realize that he was a good choice to finish RJ's work. Later, I grabbed the Mistborn trilogy off of Amazon. It had a good rating, and I was interested in reading more of your work.
That was a good two weeks of reading. Wow. I've pretty much been spending the last couple of weeks recommending you to my friends, heh. I'm impressed by how fast-paced your writing is. The magic system is well thought-out and consistent, and is used in creative ways by the characters. What I love, though, is that there are secrets and mysteries in the books that the reader can figure out ahead of time, if they're careful enough. Those little hinting nuggets of information caused several "Wow!" moments throughout.
So yeah, nice.
Overall, I think I liked the first Mistborn the best. The other two were great, as well. (I certainly crammed them down my read-hole fast enough.) That first book, though, was just one big wow. Definitely one of the best fantasy novels I've read in the past few years.
Good job. Thank you for the books. :)
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1) We're not entirely certain of the nature and history of the Shards of Adonalsium (beings like Ruin and Preservation). That said, we can't know whether Ruin or Preservation's power was always attached to Ati and Leras, or if it was passed on to them at some point.
2) "Kelsier" was actually Ruin appearing to Spook. Note that Spook only hears him after he's been "spiked" with the pewter sword, and stops hearing him after he pulls the sword's tip out. There aren't any dead people hanging around in the world of the living, as far as we know.
3) As I understand it, Vin's consciousness entirely inhabits Preservation's power, much like Leras's did. Ruin and Preservation are exact opposites, so when Vin destroys him, she gets killed as well. Since she ends up hanging around in the afterlife, this means the same is probably true of Ati. We don't really have anything to prove otherwise.
1. Right.
2. Kelsier was Ruin...most of the time. The actual Kelsier says 3 things, though, and I'm wondering how exactly he did it.
For those of you protesting Kell having been part of a shard, Brandon stated in the Q&A that between Leras' death and Vin's ascension, Kelsier took some degree of control over Preservation's power. Not as much as Vin, I would guess, but enough that he was able to get through to Spook a couple of times.
I can't remember what the 3 things are. They're somewhere in this thread but I couldn't find them with search. Any way to search by formatting? I remember they were in italics, and that combined with keywords would find them...
So that is the problem—why couldn't Ati/Ruin do the same with his own power (gaining limited control over it)—and for that matter Vin, to match him—or did Sazed simply take the power before Ruin could gather his mind, which was presumably quite shocked by what Vin did?
And why wasn't it mentioned that Ruin is still around, just powerless? Or was he, perhaps, so mentally broken by his defeat that he found himself in the Beyond and can't get back without his power? Just speculating, now...
My guess is that even if Ati was capable of seizing his power again as a ghost, his influence on the world would be small, much like Kelsier's power via Preservation was fairly limited. In addition, I doubt either Kelsier or Ati could have stopped Vin or Sazed from seizing the power when they came in direct contact with it; their grip on it would presumably have been far too weak.
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I know it's kind of redundant by this point, but DANG. HOA is officially my new favorite book!
I can proudly proclaim I read the entire thread! (except for some parts relating to Elantris, but only to avoid spoilers)
Even though Brandon's been gone for more than 40 pages I'm still going to post my questions here. You guys might be able to help me out for a couple of them.
1. What are the other Feruchemical and Hemalurgic applications for metals, the ones we haven't seen yet? (powers that is, not metals)
2. The Hemalurgic applications for the different metals seem to be grouped in fours, Human, Allomantic, Feruchemical (okay we only have two of those, but we've only got ten Feruchemical uses and six missing Hemalurgic uses), but what is the fourth set?
3. Since filling it makes you old, wouldn't the more accurate term for the Feruchemical use of Atium be storing youth?
4. We haven't seen Atium be used in Hemalurgy to steal anything other than the use of Atium. Does it REALLY take Allomantic Temporal powers or just the use of Atium?
5. In the future, would the genetic blending of the different magics create misting of more than one Allomantic metal? Like a duralumin and pewter misting? (I'm expecting an RAFO on this, but that's okay)
6. Is it possible to have a Larasium misting?
7. Does Gold let you seen alternate timelines or just communicate with your past self? Or can you not talk to the past? Is it actually the past or simply a representation of it?
8. Do Hemalurgic spikes actually create sentience? Since that's what happened to the kandra. But aren't humans intelligent because they are more of Preservation than Ruin? But wouldn't spiking a mistwraith make it more like Ruin? Seems to contradict itself a bit.
9. Did Sazed make anyone else besides Spook into Mistborn?
10. If Hemalurgy is of Ruin and Larasium is of Preservation, would someone who's been spiked be able to burn Larasium at all?
11. Are Chromium and Nicrosil blocked by Copper in a form similar to Zinc and Brass?
12. If a mistborn capable of piercing copperclouds used bronze on a smoker, would he be able to use zinc or brass at the same time to affect them? What I'm trying to say, does puncturing a Coppercloud get through their emotional immunity as well?
13. Do Iron and Steel function through a magnetic or gravitational attraction/repulsion?
14. Will we ever see posters of tables of Feruchemical and Hemalurgic elements? Or posters for all of the Atium/Larasium abilities?
15. Do Feruchemists have to Snap like Allomancers?
17. Which Feruchemical abilities did TLR give the original Inquisitors? Since they obviously had at least healing, but he wouldn't want to risk having them be strong enough to compete with them if they ever got loose.
Yes, there's a lot of 'em. I was writing them down when I was reading through the topic.
I also wanted to respond to a couple of people's comments and bring in my own.
(Quote by Akkarin)
I suppose when it's put like that, Elend choosing not to fight - choosing to have the woman he loves kill herself - doesn't seem so bad if they just get an eternity of happiness. Maybe I've just been looking at it from the wrong angle, but to me I'd rather think that the events of the final book mattered , and the two shouldn't have just killed themselves when Ruin got free. And if I think the book matters, then I think life matters, and then I'm back to being annoyed with their suicides to a plan millenia old....
Just because they had something to go to doesn't make their deaths any less of a sacrifice. They had friends, people thy loved and cared about, and it's that very love that made it so they had to do what they did.
(Quote by Akkarin)
Elend is alive -> Vin loves Elend -> Vin wants to be with Elend -> Vin values life with Elend.
Therefore Elend commits suicide (senselessness fully implied) to force Vin to comply with his ideals and do what he wants by removing any incentive for her to remain in the world of the living.
I didn't get the impression that Elend let Marsh kill him for this reason, at least, not by itself. The Duralumin fueled Atium let him see (according to Brandon) "the whole of Preservation's plan and his place in it" or something to that effect. I believe that releasing Vin from her previous inhibitions was one reason, but I also think that he saw that Marsh still had things to do and that killing him would mess things up more in the future than killing him then would fix. His martyrdom will also probably have further influence on later generations, perhaps inspiring future leaders to have his dedication. What I'm saying is that Elend's sacrifice was just that, a sacrifice, rather than suicide. It had a meaning and purpose that we don't know of yet, and I trust that we'll get to see some of that in later books.
(Quote by Akkarin)
Also, one last point that makes the ending rather muted - the future of the Mistborn world. Elend was the best ruler for the Empire. Without Vin at his side I could've seen him still succeeding. But with neither Vin nor Elend, I find it hard to imagine anyone else being able to hold the empire together...Breeze? Cares too little. Spook? Too young and with no understanding of politics. Cett? Maybe a good man inside, but we've had his flaws pointed out enough that we should be familiar. He lost his own kingdom.
I disagree, I think that the near future for these characters, at least within their own lifetimes, will be about reconstruction rather than politics. Even Cett would be able to see that. I think Spook will do an excellent job.
(Quote by Sheaman3773)
It was stated in FE that if a nobleman slept with a skaa woman, she had to be killed before she came to term. However, what happened with the reverse? What if a noblewoman took a skaa man to her bed? One could assume that such events wouldn't happen, but white women slept with black slaves during our own unfortunate period in history when the US had them, despite the illegality (and often lynching of both involved parties), though it is common knowledge that male slave owners slept with their female slaves much more. So, logically, it must have happened at least once in a thousand years. What then? Was the noblewoman killed, just as the skaa woman would be? I would think yes, but hey, it's worth an ask.
In the annotations for HOA, under one of the spoiler tags, it says that this happened to Slowswift's cousin. She slept with a skaa man and was executed for it, generally bringing shame on their family.
Some people theorize that Brandon's going to add WoT to his overall cosmology, but I seriously doubt it. It's not his series, so that would be rude!
I suppose a Gold misting would be extremely self-aware from seeing their life in hindsight, becoming a person of unprecedented character. Also, being able to recall memories by asking the version of himself from the particular spot in time he'd want to remember. I actually think the Electrum mistings are the ones who get shafted with no Atium to counter.
While I disagree with some of Shadowkiller's theories, he does have a good point about Brandon Sanderson being able to deceive us when it comes to the rules of magic. There are a couple of blog posts that explain the concept of "Frames of Reference" which are about the difference between what the author knows, the readers know, and what each of the characters know. Because of Atium's unique position as a god metal, it cannot (and should not) be assumed to obey the same rules as the others. Because Atium has 16 possible alloys, it could be possible that an Atium misting could use all 17 metals derived from it, thus being a sort of Atium-born. In fact, we've seen Brandon exploit this in-story, holding back more than a third of the metals and the third metallic art to use as plot twists later on.
(Which was brilliant, BTW)
Here's those blog posts:
http://atsiko.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/magicology-frames-of-reference-part-1/
http://atsiko.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/magicology-frames-of-reference-part-2/
P.S. How do you get the quote box to say who said it? I just copied and pasted it.
And can you pothole a link?
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I know the answer to one of those questions for certain, at least!
4. We haven't seen Atium be used in Hemalurgy to steal anything other than the use of Atium. Does it REALLY take Allomantic Temporal powers or just the use of Atium?
Actually, neither.
I asked Brandon about this, and he said that atium, given the right placement in a person, can steal any attribute. It's like a Hemalurgic wildcard. He noted that those tables in the Ars Arcanums are in-world creations. The Ministry made very expensive experiments to determine atium's Hemalurgic power. They discovered that it can, indeed, steal Allomantic Temporal powers. You can't really blame them for not discovering about the other abilities--the Ministry didn't want to waste its atium.
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5. doubt it, before lerasium was introduced mistings existed (Alendi was a seeker) but no mistborn or someone who could use more than 1 metal
6. lerasium grants the use of all the powers to anyone who burns it, or doubles the power if a mistborn does
8. the spike steals the soul, twist it, and transplants it into whatever granting abilities and with the kandra sentience
9. I'd put money on only Spook, mistborn die out over the following millenia
10. The Lord Ruler did
12. Nope, however if you had an additional power of brass or zinc you may
13. Well they don't arch...it's strictly linear so doubtful
14. A. Probably B. Lerasium alloys makes mistings... Atium would be interesting
16. why did you skip 16?
17. Speed and strength were given with healing, but he was more powerful in feruchemy and allomancy b/c spiking involves a lost of power, and he is an original mistborn and a natural feruchemist.
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10. The Lord Ruler did
The original question was:
10. If Hemalurgy is of Ruin and Larasium is of Preservation, would someone who's been spiked be able to burn Larasium at all?
I would like to point out the fact that the Lord Ruler never did such a thing. He ate aerasium very soon after the Ascension (because when he held the Power, he understood what lerasium did), thus making him Mistborn. He was not spiked until after this point. There is no evidence which says that the Lord Ruler actually burned another bead of the lerasium.
Thus, the Lord Ruler was never spiked at the same time he consumed lerasium. The conjecture stands.
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Atium can copy anything huh? I like that! But that begs the question, which of the other metals specifically steals temporal abilities? It could be any of the four, since none of them have been Hemalurgically defined yet.
Well, I based that on a couple of things Brandon said before. He said that in the future, due to genetic mingling, Feruchemy would break down into, essentially, mistings. He also said that it would be possible for someone to have both a Feruchemical and Allomantic power, thus providing a precedent for having two abilities.
I don't see how it arching would imply either a gravitational or magnetically based pull.
Oh, I think 16 was a question I found the answer to while reading.
Well, I don't know about strength, but at the beginning of HOA Vin specifically notices the speed as a new thing.
I was under the impression that TLR never used Larasium at all and simply gained Allomancy from using the Well.
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I was under the impression that TLR never used Larasium at all and simply gained Allomancy from using the Well.
This is not entirely accurate. At the end of MB1, Vin assumes the power the Lord Ruler seized at the Well was Allomancy. However, when Vin took the power at the Well (and giving lerasium to Elend), she did not have the raw force that Elend, lerasium-infused, had. Allomancy comes from the beads of Preservation. Leras simply placed those beads at the Well of Ascension.
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I would like to raise the question as to how Lerasium is formed?
I reread that scene not too long ago. If you remember correctly it was on a round piece of pottery. Would it then stand to reason that Preservation's power condenses itself on this clay and the forms at the center where it is drawn for some reason?
>>' Just a random thought I had a while back.
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My eyes are burning... I'm not gonna read that.
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My eyes are burning... I'm not gonna read that.
Yellow hurts. >:(
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I was wondering if i was the only one with a problem over the color.
Magnetism and electricity arch....it's why when the sun "sparks" it follows a predetermined path.
And how do we know he wasn't spiked until afterward? Alendi was.... did he pose as Alendi after taking the power and that is the reason for the spikes or what?
Kel says inquisitors are faster/ stronger than other allomancers, now if you stacked abilities (like double pewter or feruchemical) would that do anything?
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And how do we know he wasn't spiked until afterward? Alendi was.... did he pose as Alendi after taking the power and that is the reason for the spikes or what?
Because Ruin didn't notice Rashek until he killed Alendi...
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It's actually orange, but, yeah, sorry.
I think that stacking Pewter would increase your speed, just not as much as Feruchemical Steel would, but that all depends on the amount of stored speed.
The "piercings of the Hero" I think are a reference to Sazed's Keeper earring-holes. Alendi probably got his pierced because he thought he was the Hero and that was something the Hero was supposed to do. Rashek would already have these as a Feruchemist. I think Brandon said that the Atium bracers that Rashek wore functioned as his Hemalurgic spikes since they went through his skin. He did this so that a normal Allomancer wouldn't be able to take his vital thing from him.
Just because the majority of the Well's energies ran out quickly doesn't mean that he wasn't any different afterwards.
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Trust us...we're in the know (kinda sorta.... Peter most definately is) he was different only in the fact that he was atuned to the mist, like Vin.
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So there were actually eleven pieces of Larasium at the Well? One for him, one for each of the original nine Allomancers, and the one Elend used.
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And at least one more.
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And at least one more.
Oh? Please tell us, if at all possible, where this went. *pulls out clipboard to take notes*
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RAFO.
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Well, dang.
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Hoid took it, didn't he?
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hey did anyone catch in "the hope of elantris" that one of the aons mentioned was "Ati"?
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I didn't, but given our current understanding of the Cosmere, that doesn't seem likely to be relevant. Unless all Aons are named after people with shards, in which case the number of shards would simply be astronomical. (Lots of Aons y'know.)
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Besides, Leras wouldn't fit as an Aon. They all end in vowels, I believe.
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I would like to raise the question as to how Lerasium is formed?
I reread that scene not too long ago. If you remember correctly it was on a round piece of pottery. Would it then stand to reason that Preservation's power condenses itself on this clay and the forms at the center where it is drawn for some reason?
>>' Just a random thought I had a while back.
The Lerasium nugget was in the clay disc, not on it. :) Vin had to break the disc.
hey did anyone catch in "the hope of elantris" that one of the aons mentioned was "Ati"?
I asked about this, but Peter says that there's no relation. ETA: Ati in Hope of Elantris was probably named before Ati in Mistborn, or Brandon just accidentally reused it.
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They're also pronounced differently. The aon is pronounced "A tie." The ati in "atium" is "A tee."
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hey did anyone catch in "the hope of elantris" that one of the aons mentioned was "Ati"?
I asked about this, but Peter says that there's no relation. ETA: Ati in Hope of Elantris was probably named before Ati in Mistborn, or Brandon just accidentally reused it.
I just thought that Ati might have been an elantrian...but oh well.
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Hoid took it, didn't he?
Maybe Sazed took it to give to Spook. After all, Ati had to spike Spook to give him pewter, so the powers of Ruin and Preservation can't just throw the ability to be Mistings/Mistborn anywhere they feel like it.
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Ah, but the goal with Spook was to get a spike in him, not to give him pewter. Ati/Ruin cared a lot more about having influence over Spook than about what powers Spook had. Plus, that was Ruin, and Allomancy is Preservation's power. Ruin being unable or unwilling to grant Allomancy directly has little bearing on whether Preservation can do it, and Sazed had both powers when he made Spook a mistborn.
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Random stab of the missing lerasium, taking into consideration that RAFO literally means Read and Find Out.
Middle Mistborn series- Hero about to lose, best friend dying, so Sazed (as Shard) tells hero where Lerasium is. Hero either:
A. Burns it, making himself mistborn, or
B. Makes it into a spike (though I don't think there's enough to make a very big spike), thus killing his dying friend, and making himself powerful enough to defeat the killer Mistborn
</Crazy theory>
I have a question that probably only Peter can answer: What is the melting point of Lerasium? Aproximately?
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Um, I have no reason to know that, if Brandon has even decided.
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Does Brandon even have a plan on writing the second Mistborn books? Doesn't he have like seventeen books he wants to get done before he goes back to that?
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Does Brandon even have a plan on writing the second Mistborn books? Doesn't he have like seventeen books he wants to get done before he goes back to that?
That is correct. Also, he said he needs to wait for the right story to come together. He is interested about them, but does not want to simply capitalize on the Mistborn series.
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Wait- nix my crazy theory.
Sazed says in one of the headers that " I don't know why TLR left a bead. Maybe he was afraid he was going to run out of power, etc." Something like that.
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^Well, that just means that the other bead isn't at the well.
^^If that means we have to wait like twenty years, that's okay, I'll wait. If previous experience is anything to go by, then we'll be getting the third trilogy of Star Wars movies around that time. YAY!
Let's see, he's got the Way Of Kings coming, which is supposed to be like ten books, that's a good decade right there, the fourth and fifth Alcatraz books, that's probably a year together, the last two Wheel of Time books, so that's maybe three together, and probably some other projects I'm missing. So that's 14 years just by what I can pick off the top of my head. He may throw Mistborn in there once he comes up with a story he gets excited about, so lets hope for that!
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*sigh* Mistborn was my favorite...we should petition him to write another Mistborn or two between WoK books :P
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^I'm not sure that would be a good idea. If we want the next Mistborn books to be as great as the first we need him to want to write them. Just give him time, if he does em, it'll be awesome. Better for him not to do it at all then do it for the money and totally screw it up.
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I'm new here, Brandon is an awesome author, etc.
Questions about the development of allomancy in Future Scadrial...
(1) Would it be possible to design a machine that replicates whatever the "burning" process is in the human stomach, enabling a sort of automated allomancy? This would obviously be kind of worthless for metals like gold and electrum, since a machine doesn't really have a use for knowing what its alternate pasts or futures would be like, but a coppercloud engine would be rather useful, and I have a neat design for an iron- or steel- burning automobile engine... Not to mention that metal repulsion would be the obvious way to take Mistborn spacebound. It seems like it should be possible, since I think it was implied earlier in this thread that even a rock exists to some degree in all three realms, but obviously I don't actually know this.
(2) Scadrian transhumanism. Would the development of genetic engineering allow for the revival of Mistborns, or is that something that for whatever reason only lerasium can do? (I'm really curious about the chemical structure of lerasium and atium in general - they can be alloyed with normal metals, which implies they have electron shells, but the nucleus almost certainly can't consist of normal protons and neutrons...)
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(1) Would it be possible to design a machine that replicates whatever the "burning" process is in the human stomach, enabling a sort of automated allomancy? This would obviously be kind of worthless for metals like gold and electrum, since a machine doesn't really have a use for knowing what its alternate pasts or futures would be like, but a coppercloud engine would be rather useful, and I have a neat design for an iron- or steel- burning automobile engine... Not to mention that metal repulsion would be the obvious way to take Mistborn spacebound. It seems like it should be possible, since I think it was implied earlier in this thread that even a rock exists to some degree in all three realms, but obviously I don't actually know this.
It's an interesting idea, but I'm fairly certain that in future books that allomancy will be limited to human use, due to its magical origins, as well as inanimate objects not having any amount of preservation to augment to create allomancy. The idea is that allomancy comes from having more than the normal amount of Preservation and while animals and such have Preservation in them (in equal proportions with Ruin) inanimate objects lack that.
(2) Scadrian transhumanism. Would the development of genetic engineering allow for the revival of Mistborns, or is that something that for whatever reason only lerasium can do? (I'm really curious about the chemical structure of lerasium and atium in general - they can be alloyed with normal metals, which implies they have electron shells, but the nucleus almost certainly can't consist of normal protons and neutrons...)
While genetics may contribute to the presence of allomancy, the actual cause of magic is on a more metaphysical level, putting it rather out of reach of normal scientific inquiry.
I've noticed some patterns in Hemalurgy and put together a rather rough table of Hemalurgic Metals.
http://flamepainter.deviantart.com/art/Hemalurgic-Metals-Table-158509497
This link goes to the page of DeviantArt where I have it uploaded since I couldn't get it to upload directly here.
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Notice this from book 3 annotations:
(As a side note to this side note, the planet this is all taking place on is barren and virtually uninhabitable save for the poles, a situation caused by the proximity to the sun. [Editor's note: More on this in a much later annotation.] The Final Empire is at the north pole. What's at the south pole? Hum. I wonder. . . .)
This may be totally wrong since I don't know much about the Shadesmar, but assuming it must have some physical manifestation on every planet, do we know there what would be on Scadriel?
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And at least one more.
Oh? Please tell us, if at all possible, where this went. *pulls out clipboard to take notes*
Isn't it how Saze made Spook into a mistborn, somehow?
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No, Brandon says earlier in here that Spook is just a normal mistborn, not a Lerasium-endowed mistborn.
I have a question- Early in the first book, Vin talks about saving up her 'Luck' for long periods of time, from metals from plates and bowls and such. How long do metals generally stay in the body? Is it the standard 48 hours like the rest of food, meaning that either Scadrial people are skilled, or Vin is just amazing. Or does it stay for long times? And another thing- did Vin get headaches from burning impure metals? Or was she just lucky that all the metals were pure?
What do you guys think?
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I think it was too small an amount to give her headaches, as for the 'saving up' thing, It's a good point, and my excuse would probably go along the lines of 'that's why her reserve never got very big, even after weeks of non-use. it just stayed at that tiny amount she was getting every day.'
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No, Brandon says earlier in here that Spook is just a normal mistborn, not a Lerasium-endowed mistborn.
And how would it be? If he Snapped and became a tineye, how would he evolve from misting to mistborn? If the power is just enough to make a man a mistborn, wouldn't Rashek use it to force his chosen men into mistborns and eat all the Larasium himself or keep it for a time when the power would be gone?
I have a question- Early in the first book, Vin talks about saving up her 'Luck' for long periods of time, from metals from plates and bowls and such. How long do metals generally stay in the body? Is it the standard 48 hours like the rest of food, meaning that either Scadrial people are skilled, or Vin is just amazing. Or does it stay for long times? And another thing- did Vin get headaches from burning impure metals? Or was she just lucky that all the metals were pure?
What do you guys think?
For that, the answer is simple - she didn't run out of reserve not because of some abilities, but because she was getting it everyday, drinking dirty water and eating with metal cutlery.
Of course we can speculate that maybe she was getting a little power from the mists, for Ruin wasn't that powerful back then and couldn't block it all. But I guess it's the first explaination.
And I have a question, for I can't really find it on TWG, and everybody's talking about it... What is exactly "the Shard"?
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And I have a question, for I can't really find it on TWG, and everybody's talking about it... What is exactly "the Shard"?
"Shard" is a generic term for Ruin, Preservation, and a number of other similarly powerful beings/forces that exist on the various planets most of Brandon's books are set on. It is mentioned in at least one of the chapter headings in Hero of Ages, along with the being that all the Shards originally came from (Adonalsium*). Adonalsium, as much as we can figure out so far, appears to be the equivalent of God. He was broken into a bunch of Shards a long time ago, and the settings of Elantris, Mistborn, Warbreaker, the upcoming Stormlight Archives, and a few more planned for the future all feature one or more Shards of Adonalsium, each of which has a major impact on the nature of the setting and that setting's magic system.
* Hero of Ages has a typo in the name, calling it Adonasium. Brandon has repeatedly stated this is a mistake, and the correction somehow got missed before the printing, and it's supposed to be Adonalsium.
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After a bit of thought about Hemalurgy, I believe that the metal that actually steals Allomantic Temporal powers is Gold. The question that would seem to kill this theory would be "But wouldn't they have discovered this, since they had access to Gold the whole time?", but I have an explanation for this. I don't think they would mainly because of Atium and the widespread belief of Gold as a useless metal. The only "temporal metal" whose power they'd want to steal would be Atium, which can only supposedly be stolen from a full Mistborn with the extremely valuable Atium. Why would the Inquisitors expend both a full mistborn plus a large chunk of Atium to transfer the allomantic use of Gold? And since Atium can steal allomantic gold, they would simply assume that Atium steals both anyway. So they have little to no reason to test Gold Hemalurgically at all, at least in a way that would actually do anything.
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Found the reference!
I take it either Spook did not have children or Sazed made him a reduced-strength Mistborn rather than giving him the full potency of the 9 originals and Elend?
Spook is a reduced power Mistborn.
My guess is that since TLR changed the genetic codes for the Balance and to make people survive ash, Kelsier suggested to Sazed that he do the same thing to Spook, and since he already had the right spiritual codes to be a misting, those were close enough to become a mistborn. Just a guess.
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I've been reading your Wheel of Time since you thankfully took up the job (I need the end!), finished Towers of Midnight in a flash, and concluded that I loved your work and moved onto the Mistborn trilogy. I've finished it, grown unhealthily attached to it, and just wanted to suggest that you get Christopher Nolan on the job of making some movies out of this. Tim Burton would be waaaay to wacky for this... maybe Peter Jackson based on his work with Lord of the Rings. But I love Nolan since he almost always casts Christian Bale and generally his casts are superb. Plus he's a big name these days and your work definitely deserves association with someone on a high level. However I have no clue whatsoever as to how producers and authors meet up :-\
Frankly, I'd rather read your brilliant novels than see the redundant movies being shown nowadays --- instead of coming up with their own frivolous plots, Hollywood needs to pick up some books (preferably yours) and get some inspiration! Please be assured that all of my frustration is a sincere compliment to your bountiful worthiness. I thank you. ;D