Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Patriotic Kaz on April 16, 2009, 04:28:16 PM
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OK we know who Rand was in his previous incarnations but what about the other Taavern? I personally think due to the old blood being so strong in Matt that he is Aemon (Last king of Manetherren). Perrin has me frankly stumped however, any thoughts?
You can also include minor characters such as Galad or whomever if you think of it...
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I like the Aemon theory and I have heard that one before, I think it's an intuitive leap to that idea. Thom seems to think everyone was someone before, and Mat is constantly called things like the Gambler, the Trickster and the Fox.
Perrin is an Old soul I think, maybe one that hasn't been out in awhile even. I doubt that we will get any confirmation though it is fun to contimplate.
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I think Perrin was a wolf in his previous incarnation. :P
Mat ... Hmmmmm... There is definitely a link to Manetherren, but I never got a strong inclination that Matt was ONE person reincarnated. He has all those different memories in his head, and it seems to me that some of them were from different people who were alive in the same age. I'm not sure if all the memories he has now are memories from his previous incarnations, or if the Aelfin just dumped a bunch of different souls memories into him.
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I think Perrin was a wolf in his previous incarnation. :P
Mat ... Hmmmmm... There is definitely a link to Manetherren, but I never got a strong inclination that Matt was ONE person reincarnated. He has all those different memories in his head, and it seems to me that some of them were from different people who were alive in the same age. I'm not sure if all the memories he has now are memories from his previous incarnations, or if the Aelfin just dumped a bunch of different souls memories into him.
I'm pretty sure most of Matt's memories were just random memories the Aelfin dumped into his head.
He does seem to have some ancestral memories, but those seem more like Lamarckism than any soul-related dynamics.
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Mat is most likely Aemon (if he is in fact someone famous and not just "spear holder #3"); Perrin is a tough one, but I like the old soul idea, who knows maybe he was a wolf
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I really like the idea of the wolf. It would explain why the dream world is not crawling with wolves if they could be reborn into people. I doubt that everyone who is born is a reborn soul though. If this was the case the population would have to be stable. I don't think that Mat is reborn from anyone. I do think that both Mat and Perrin will later be tied to the wheel. I would like it to happen to Hurrin as well because Arthur Hawkwing hinted to him that it was possible.
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I doubt that everyone who is born is a reborn soul though. If this was the case the population would have to be stable.
Well, at least the population of the real world + the dream world + any alternate soul-habitats (such as other creatures?) would have to be stable. Which could very well be the case. Not that I think it's a slam-dunk by any means, just that it's possible.
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It gives to some interesting questions when you take into account souls being balefired and thus ripped from the pattern. It could be a bit like the Hindu belief system that a soul would work it's way up or down the Spiritual ladder so to speak. Those that are attached to the Horn have achieved a type of Nirvana.
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OHHH i just remembered the dream he has after the dagger is removed PROVES MAT IS AEMON!!!!
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It does?
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Yeah don't you recall it's a battle scene where he is ordering the manetheren armies against a much larger force of trollocs and he uses the battle call that has a relation to Aemon's wife who else would use that cry?
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that's pretty thin imo. he has so many memories that he could be "proved" to be anyone. sure he might be Aemon, but he also has the memories of people fighting on both sides of the same battles. just saying, just cause he used one battle call doesn't prove anything - perhaps that was a common call in that time.
I hope Mat isn't anyone special reborn. It would dull his character imo if he was. I would much rather him be his own person. Perrin I couldn't care less about - unless something awesome happens to his character arc, he is expendable.
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Actually that's before his trip to the Rhuiden Finnland so any memories are his own or somewhere in his genetic past if you want to go that route.
As for Perrin being expendable I disagree I think he's the one they are going to need AFTER Tarmon Gaiden to be a builder of things.
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Actually that's before his trip to the Rhuiden Finnland so any memories are his own or somewhere in his genetic past if you want to go that route.
As for Perrin being expendable I disagree I think he's the one they are going to need AFTER Tarmon Gaiden to be a builder of things.
thats a good point about Finnland (good use of the word lol). it may have come from his past, but it still doesn't come close to proving who he was in a previous life, if anyone. plus, i would think the dead heroes of the Horn would have called him by a name if he was someone THAT important (like they did with Rand).
i hope Perrin has a sweet purpose. he was a favorite of mine in the beginning, but his arc right now is more flat-lining than pulsing.
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LOL
Finnland. . . So the terangreal is trademarked Nokia(tm).
Yeah the whole lot of them had episodes of spouting the old tongue. So, it's possible Mat is Aemon. It's just as possible that Perrin is. Perrin's path is taking him toward reconstituting Manetheren. Mat is becoming Matrim the first of the restored Empire of Tanreall.
Speaking of which I still think a certain someone should take the name Shah'min meaning precious and the spelling should be Seamin in deference to the Keltic spelling that Rigney liked. (e.g. Sean Chan) I know some people will read an off color miss pronunciation, but must we allow salacious minds to control everything?
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That's true enough about Matt = Aemon, I think the only thing we know for sure is that both him and Egwene descend from those Manathren people.
Well I know the whole Faile is kidnapped was severly annoying but at least Perrin can be the one responisble for the complete annhilation of the Shaido, the desicmation of Masema insane army and bringing in Morgase safe and sound. Not a bad job to be honest, I know that Rand will appreciate that. Plus now they have some Seachan general who will be happy with them and help to keep a truce between the Randland and the Seachan. It just took awhile for it all to come to a head, but then so is the whole WT split.
If Manatheren comes back I don't think Mat will be in charge of it.
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I don't think he'd even want that responsibility.\
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I agree Shaggy but he's Prince of Raven's now so technically he's now Emperor of Seachan along with his wife the Emperess.
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True. And that brings up another point–I would think being Emperor/Ruler/Big Boy in two different 'states' in two different 'continents' would be…difficult. And faintly annoying, probably. :-\
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Yeah I suspect that after a few years of recovering from TG that Toun and Mat will then take their forces back to Seachan to re-conquer everything.
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mmmm maybe, But I think that it's likely that Perrin becomes one of several Vice Roy charged with enforcing the reign of Mat and Precious in the home continent. No doubt the Princess of Mayene will get major authority given that she is a relative of the Crystal Throne. A way I might have gone would be to make Bayle and Leilwyn governors in Arad Doman. Saldea and a reconstituted Manetheren come under Perrin and Zarene, the rest of it gets pretty complicated but Tear and Illian pretty much have to become subjects of Mayene. That leaves the football field (caralain grass) to be split between "the Return" and the Aeil. A new Jinn Aeil tribe would need proximity to Tar Valan and the football field is the most likely spot. It's also the ruins of Tanreall's kingdom so makes since to put the returners there too. I'm thinking the blight gets cured, so without Shayol Ghul pumping out new Beast men Lan starts rebuilding on the edge of the borderlands.
Of course that presupposes we don't end up with a big Hong Kong finish where everyone we care about dies and the nobodies who didn't do any of the real work of winning TG inherit everything. :P
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You aware that Tear is going to have Darlin as King and Illan still has Mattin Stephanos.
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Those are Rand's appointments. What ever happens with him. It's unlikely he'll be in a position to prevent Darlin and Stepanos from bing subjugated. But yeah I'm just looking at trends and how they could be best tied up. As long as Tear and Illian are allowed to stand as independent nations they will keep the south at war. Revival of the nation that Far Madding was capital of and Illian, Tear and Mayene were provinces of would be the neatest solution to this problem. Yeah it would lead to Balkanization and maybe later ugliness. But it could lead to a solution like the merger of Rome, Provence, Genoa and Sicily. :)
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Mat is not Ameon, he was a general in Manetherns army...that's all..
check this.
http://wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=855&Category=Mat
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I think the way the story has been set up is that Rand is leaving behind those that will be able to lead their respective countries after he is gone. He is expecting that he will die or at least not be ruling these places after TG. So I don't see Tear getting a King as Min saw only to be subjectated to who the Seachan?
I do agree though that there is going to be some major changes though with the possible rise of Manatheren and whatever Aravalon is supposed to be.
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Actually, Min saw in one of her visions Darlin wearing a certain crown, and dying in his bed later in life. When Darlin was named King of Tear, they said they would have her design that crown she saw. I don't believe Tear will be subjugated to the Seanchan. Especially with the huge army in the way in Illian.
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I refuse to comment on the future of WoT. I mean, why think that anything is going to be the same after Tairmon Gaidon?
The Age of Legends ended with the breaking of the world. There are strong hints that the previous age ended in nuclear holocaust. With the breaking of the world, only the barest outlines of the previous world survived, and those outlines were the peoples, not the physical countries. So although groups loyal to Matt, Perrin, etc. might survive, I am highly skeptical of the actual geography that might be postulated, and that includes the locations of the continents.
I am also skeptical that the one power will survive unchanged. The world is changing. The Ogier are up to something. Sniffers, Seers (I mean Min), Wolfbrothers coming back? It's all part of something that teases at my imagination and suggests things well beyond simple politics. People who base their speculations on what is, rather than what could be, seem to me to lack both imagination and pattern recognition. The Age turning is a massive event. And any speculation on crowns or kingdoms seems, to me, to be something that will either be in a different context or between the "present" and Tairmon Gaidon.
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Matt has lived and died multiple times. It hasn't ever seemed to me that he was one person but many that were all connected to some type of military and war. I see in WOT wiki it states:
Mat's memories also raise questions as to the nature of reincarnation through the Wheel; Mat remembers dying, "more times than he could count" (The Fires of Heaven), due to his memories being from many individual lives of adventurers that went to the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, whether through the doorways or the Tower of Ghenjei or perhaps his own previous lives (the books make many references to people being "spun into the pattern" many times, such as Birgitte Silverbow or, obviously, the Dragon Reborn).
http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Mat
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Matt has lived and died multiple times. It hasn't ever seemed to me that he was one person but many that were all connected to some type of military and war. I see in WOT wiki it states:
Mat's memories also raise questions as to the nature of reincarnation through the Wheel; Mat remembers dying, "more times than he could count" (The Fires of Heaven), due to his memories being from many individual lives of adventurers that went to the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, whether through the doorways or the Tower of Ghenjei or perhaps his own previous lives (the books make many references to people being "spun into the pattern" many times, such as Birgitte Silverbow or, obviously, the Dragon Reborn).
http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Mat
A quick recommendation: We all already know what the issue is. All the arguments you make here have already been discussed in this thread, with the "previous lives" argument having taken a severe pounding, as usual.
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The King of Manetheren is the leader of the Band of the Red Hand and he, in the dream, orders them forward how is can you say he isn't Aemon? In addition to that it doesn't mean that he has to take up the crown under the same reasoning Rand would have to unite the two towers and become the Amrilyn Seat again.
I wish we had more background knowledge of the White tower because i want to know where Egwene fits in...
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I'm pretty sure the male leader of the Taes Sedai is the Tamyrlin At least I picked that up from some obscure passage I can't cite. But my impression is that historically the men and women trained and lived apart until the became accepted in order to minimize the danger in teaching the correct (gender based) means of achieving Saidin/Saidar. It would stand to reason there would be a gender based division in the political structure that grew from that unconsciously.
That would also have left the political structure of the White tower as stagnated as it is, because removing the men would have been little disruption.
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I've never heard of people called Taes Sedai . Although Tamyrlin was supposed to be the name of the first person to channel (and I have a feeling he was male.) Also, there was a ring called the Ring of Tamyrlin that Lews Therin wore while he was First among the Servants. The ring was supposed to be an extremely powerful sa'angreal. And that would make sense considering Lanfear mentioned to him once how there were 2 sa'angreals that Rand could use that were stronger than Callandor (one being the Male half of the Choedan Kal.)
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Vyrance, do you have any references for your information? As I recall, the "World of" book only mentions that Lews Therin had the Ring of Tamyrlin and had nothing more than speculation (and not very much of it) about what the name meant or what it did. Also, I'm pretty sure Lanfear's statement was about sa'angreals in general, not just ones that Rand could use, and she meant both of the Choedan Kal.
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no hard evidence on the name of Tamyrlin, I just read that Tamyrlin was rumored to be the name of the first channeler. i'm not sure where the thought originally came from, but i know its on the wheel of time wiki (i know, its a wiki. :P) this is the only source i could find for it, but i myself, havent read that version of TEOTW:
Scott Mocklin tells us that the new glossary in To The Blight (vol. 2 of the YA version of TEOTW) has the following entry:
Ring of Tamyrlin (TAHM-ehr-lin): a legendary ring, believed mythical by most people, worn by the leader of the Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends. Stories about the Ring of Tamyrlin include that it was an angreal or sa'angreal or ter'angreal of immense power. It supposedly was named after the first person to learn how to tap into the Source and channel the One Power, and in some tales, was actually made by that man or woman. Despite what many Aes Sedai say, no one knows whether it was a man or a woman who first learned to channel. Some believe that the present title of Amyrlin is a corruption of Tamyrlin.
as far as what Lanfear says,
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 9 - Decisions
"I cannot trust you fully, Lews Therin. Not yet." She [Lanfear] came closer, and he [Rand] considered simply seizing her. He was bigger and stronger by far - and blocked as he was, she could wrap him up with the Power like a kitten tangled in a ball of string. "Not with that, certainly," she added, grimacing at Callandor. "There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. No, Lews Therin. I will not trust you yet with that." "Stop calling me that," he growled. "My name is Rand. Rand al'Thor."
she does say that a man can use, so that's why I think it's probably that ring. unless of course, you count being able to use both choedan kal by linking, but i tend to think she meant direct use by a man.
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I am in the middle of my reread and just went through a part that gives some credit to the theory that all people are reborn. The scene is with Hopper and Perrin when Perrin is talking to him about Hopper being dead. Hopper states that all brothers and sisters that are, have been, and will be exist in the dream world. If we take there long memories of running with humans we can say that it applies to humans as well because they were at one point the brothers and sisters of wolves.