Timewaster's Guide Archive
Departments => Books => Topic started by: Miyabi on March 26, 2009, 05:02:46 AM
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OK. SO I just picked up The Eye of the World and I read through the prologue. I don't know what I wasn't catching last time I tried to read it. (I was a LOT younger . . maybe 7th grade last time I tried really hard.) I already want to know what the series is about and it really caught me and pulled me in. So anyway. I thought I would start posting on here and give my opinions on sections of the books and ask questions when I hit things that I don't understand. The prologue is full of so many things that are completely new to me and unique to the series that I'm hoping those all get filled in later on in the book/series. In any case. I'll post again in a few chapters or so.
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This should be interesting.
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Oh I had a question. So I already started TEotW, but would anyone recommend reading New Spring after I finish TEotW or wait until later?
Sorry I went from a random youtube search of Mistborn and trailed to the wiki on WoT and found out there was a prequel novel.
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As Brandon and I have discussed, read them in the order of publication. Read New Spring after you finish book 10.
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To be honest, when i had read the series I wished i had read new spring first of all. Not in publication order
A little more background on moraine and lan wouldvbeen great!
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I read them in order of publication.
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To be honest, when i read that. I wished i had read new spring first of all. Not in publication order
Havent you herd of StoryLine?
Yes I have heard of a storyline, and I'm reading it in the order it was published by Robert Jordan and Tor. Frankly, i got more enjoyment out of reading New Spring by reading it after book 10. He uses tons of terms that don't appear in the series for a bit, and seeing Moraine as a newbie would have hurt EotW for me. The mystery surrounding Moraine and Lan would have been destroyed, as would have a measure of my respect. If he wanted it read first, he would have made it book 1.
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I agree with Bookstore Guy. The books make the most sense in publication order rather than chronological.
For the same reason, I get mad when I see boxed sets of The Chronicles of Narnia with Magician's Nephew as #1.
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Prologue - Chapter 3
Questions
What is an Aes Sedai?
Thoughts
I love how Jordan manages to take so many real world cultures and mesh them to become a unique and believable one within this village.
He does a wonderful job describing Rands struggle with being a kid and adult without flat out saying that's what's going on.
The opening is slow, but it introduces things in a good manner so that you begin to understand this new world and all of it's intricacies without making the descriptions or explanations seem like some sort of instruction manual.
Predictions - Perceptions
It seems to me that this time through the Wheel turning the Dragon will be a good person. The prologue made it seem that the last time the Fourth Age was met everything was good until the Dragon appeared and eventually messed everything up. So this time the world basically sucks. I can see the Dragon coming to make things better this time.
I think the Dragon the Master Thain was talking about was a false Dragon and that Rand will be the real Dragon, but he won't know that until way later in the series.
I am currently seeing the end of the series as being the anti-prologue. It being something close to the opposite of the prologue of this book.
Anyway, that's what I got out of that section of the book. I'm done reading for a few hours, but I'll probably do some more later tonight.
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What is an Aes Sedai?
it becomes readily apparent fairly quickly who they are. part of the "fun" of the series is finding out who they are and what they do. it's also good to get to know them as the characters do. normally I wouldn't be so veiled with the explanation, but not understanding Aes Sedai is a major theme for many of the novels.
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What is an Aes Sedai?
it becomes readily apparent fairly quickly who they are. part of the "fun" of the series is finding out who they are and what they do. it's also good to get to know them as the characters do. normally I wouldn't be so veiled with the explanation, but not understanding Aes Sedai is a major theme for many of the novels.
While not knowing precisely what/who they are and what they do, an easy way to explain it without really giving away anything would be to simply say they're the "Magic users" in the world. You get to see some of the stuff they do with no explanation, which adds to the mystery, so i wont go into any of that, but think of them as the wizards/sorcerers/whatever.
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I like to call the Sedai cursed. ;)
Enjoy the story!
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miyabi I think you'll enjoy it a lot more if you RAFO because having questions is what makes you read on and you feel good when you discover the answers yourself. ;) And knowing stuff like that already might ruin some stuff for you. Maybe.
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Chapter 4 - Chapter 5
Questions
Is it just me or would it take some . . . actual TRAINING to be good enough with a single-edged sword to be able to take down multiple Trollocs that are attacking you. >> (When I was in Japan we spent a little bit of time in a Samurai/Ninja village. One of the things they taught us was a little bit of sword play. . . it's not as easy as just swinging a stick. ha ha.)
Thoughts
Tam has some dark secret about how awesome he used to be and that he came to Two Rivers to protect Rand after his mother died . . . FAIL
Predictions
I guess basically all of my thoughts this time around kind of fit together and repeat themselves. :\ There wasn't a lot of new stuff in this section, BUT there was a lot of stuff about Tam, which makes me think he is extremely important somehow.
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Without giving away too much, Rand doesn't yet have any "actual" training but he...well....has some "actual" training. That statement will become less confusing the further you read.
What do you mean by "FAIL" in the thoughts section of your post?
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I meant I think Tam has training not Rand.
The fail meant that it didn't keep them safe to move to Two Rivers.
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Well Tam is Rand's Da so he is important to his development but remember Rand Mat and Perrin are the main characters but you could argue that Egwene and another character i'm not sure you've met were ones too.
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Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Questions
So was Tam a Master Swordsman at one point?
So the uhm, angreal allows someone to be able to draw more on the One Power than if they didn't have one right?
Wait, if the Myrddraal could see through the dark and see Rand, why didn't it attack him?
Thoughts
The action really picked up in this section and a lot of new concepts were introduced.
There seemed to be a couple inconsistencies. (i.e. First a lot of houses were burned, then just two of them. The Myddraal didn't see Rand, but then it's said he can see perfectly in the dark.)
The first half of chapter 9 was confusing and jumpy, just like a dream. ha ha. Probably the best dream seen I've EVER read. Jordan does amazingly at writing this section.
Predictions
At some point in the future Tam will come back to teach Rand something about being a Master Swordsman.
At least one other person from Emmond's Field will come into play strongly later on in the story.
At some point Rand will have to go back to Emmond's field to do something. Or go to the city within the Mountains of Mist.
As the time goes on Rand will begin to remember things that happened in past turnings of the wheel.
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Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Questions
So was Tam a Master Swordsman at one point?
Tam is a quite proficient swordsman. I will say no further than that.
So the uhm, angreal allows someone to be able to draw more on the One Power than if they didn't have one right?
Basically, yes. At later points you will start hearing about sa'angreal and ter'angreal, just note that they are all different in certain ways, i dont want to reveal too much
Wait, if the Myrddraal could see through the dark and see Rand, why didn't it attack him?
Myrddraal are complicated. Generally, I wouldn't really question what they do earlier on, just note that they "Have their orders" so to speak. Their intentions aren't always what they appear on the surface.
as a side note, here is a great knowledge base and break down, annotations, and cross references of all the chapters for all of the books here (http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/). Note spoilers abound
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I don't know if Miyabi actually wants these questions answered? More just what is going through his mind as he reads. Most of your answers are basically RAFO anyway, it might be better to just let him do so. IDK.
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I like the half-answers that most people are giving. They give me enough to understand, but also not too much to spoil anything. :]
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I don't know if Miyabi actually wants these questions answered? More just what is going through his mind as he reads. Most of your answers are basically RAFO anyway, it might be better to just let him do so. IDK.
well, if someone asks a question i know anything about, i generally try to answer it to the best of my knowledge. A question that's has no intention of being answered would best be left to his section on prediction :)
However, if he doesn't want me to answer his questions, I would gladly not do so. But I assume questions are being asked to clear confusion on his part as he reads, which can certainly happen later in the series when it comes to referencing previous events/knowledge. If he asks a question that covers knowledge he should know by that point, then i would gladly answer with something other than RAFO type answers.
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I don't know if Miyabi actually wants these questions answered? More just what is going through his mind as he reads. Most of your answers are basically RAFO anyway, it might be better to just let him do so. IDK.
A question that's has no intention of being answered would best be left to his section on prediction :)
EXACTLY! That is what that section is for. ha ha.
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I don't know if Miyabi actually wants these questions answered? More just what is going through his mind as he reads. Most of your answers are basically RAFO anyway, it might be better to just let him do so. IDK.
well, if someone asks a question i know anything about, i generally try to answer it to the best of my knowledge. A question that's has no intention of being answered would best be left to his section on prediction :)
However, if he doesn't want me to answer his questions, I would gladly not do so. But I assume questions are being asked to clear confusion on his part as he reads, which can certainly happen later in the series when it comes to referencing previous events/knowledge. If he asks a question that covers knowledge he should know by that point, then i would gladly answer with something other than RAFO type answers.
I like the half-answers that most people are giving. They give me enough to understand, but also not too much to spoil anything. :]
Okay :) I just know how I would prefer to read it and wasn't sure.
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They don't just give away raven marked swords and the mydraal probably didn't see him because of the wooded area not the darkness...
Reaves i miss the bunny...
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raven marked swords
heron-marked. ravens are later.
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Reaves i miss the bunny...
lol. He might be coming back eventually.
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my bad i forgot the raven is the ************ symbol and the shadows symbol...
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Yeah! Another first time WoT reader. This series is awesome. I love experiencing the WoT through someone reading it for the first time.
myabi - about your predictions. I'll only say that one of your predictions is correct, one is somewhat close (but you won't know that for a few more books), and two of them are dead wrong. I'll let you RAFO which is which. :)
Keep telling us what you think about the book/characters/scenes. I love it!
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Vatdoro, are you sure about that? Can you PM me which ones you're talking about? 'Cause I think you may be wrong.…
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Nah, Vatdoro is right. Although I can see how you could argue that one is right, one is dead wrong, and two are somewhat close.
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That's more what I was thinking…can you (or someone :P) PM me?
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It seems to me that this time through the Wheel turning the Dragon will be a good person. The prologue made it seem that the last time the Fourth Age was met everything was good until the Dragon appeared and eventually messed everything up. So this time the world basically sucks. I can see the Dragon coming to make things better this time.
The current age is the Third Age. The prologue is at the end of the Second Age, more commonly called the Age of Legends.
In the prologue, you see Lews Therin Telamon, aka The Dragon, in his final moments after having been driven insane as the result of a rather extreme Pyrrhic victory. When he was still sane he was in fact the foremost champion and leader of the good guys. Every time he is reborn he is always the Creator's Champion and leads the fight against the Dark One. His current rather negative reputation is due to just how bad the consequences of said Pyrrhic victory were, along with everything all the False Dragons since then have done.
So was Tam a Master Swordsman at one point?
Yes. Still is.
So the uhm, angreal allows someone to be able to draw more on the One Power than if they didn't have one right?
Yes, by a pretty substantial margin. Exactly how much depends on the angreal in question.
Wait, if the Myrddraal could see through the dark and see Rand, why didn't it attack him?
The Dark One still isn't sure exactly which man is the Dragon Reborn, and in any case would ideally prefer to turn him rather than kill him. If all else fails, the Dark One can always try again next time.
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There seemed to be a couple inconsistencies. (i.e. First a lot of houses were burned, then just two of them. The Myddraal didn't see Rand, but then it's said he can see perfectly in the dark.)
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Only two outlying farms were attacked, but "half the village" is indeed in ashes.
As for the other, I guess sometimes ta'veren just get lucky. More seriously, I don't think it's a big inconsistency. Myrddraal can see in the dark, but that doesn't make them all-seeing -- and as you read, you'll learn another reason this one may have suspected somebody was in that area.
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@douglas - o.O oh. I thought the prologue was the last time the world reached the fourth age. . . Hmm. I must have read something wrong.
@Dasch - Sorry, I worded that wrong. I meant that they say that only two farms and two houses were burned, but it is also said that half the village was in ashes. So that tripped me up a bit.
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The time scale for a full turning of the wheel is MUCH longer than that. As the first paragraph or two of Chapter 1 of every book states, by the time an Age gets repeated even the vaguest hints of myths inspired by the last occurrence of that age are beyond the knowledge of even the most dedicated scholars. In the current age the series is set in, knowledge of the previous age is fragmentary and knowledge of the age before that is almost nonexistent (there are a few hints that it's the present day modern world). Knowledge of the 7th age, which would be 3 ages ago (less than half of a full turn of the Wheel of Time), just doesn't exist. Something like one specific mountain created by the final act of one person and named for him, along with his identity being common knowledge? That's not going to still be there in 7 ages time, but if you look on the map you'll find Dragonmount right next to Tar Valon and I doubt any adult on the entire continent west of the Spine of the World doesn't know about the Dragon, probably his name, and certainly that he'll be reborn.
And, well, part of the whole point of the Wheel of Time is that the broad outlines, and possibly a fair number of the specifics too, of history for each Age are constant - every Second Age is an Age of Legends, a time of utopian advancement that gets ended by the rediscovery of the Dark One, a war against him led by the Dragon, followed by a cataclysmic event like the Breaking of the World (possibly the same cataclysmic event; this probably isn't the first time the Dark One has tainted saidin). Every Third Age is the world dealing with the fallout for a few thousand years until the Seals on the Dark One's prison start to weaken, the Dragon gets reborn, and the leadup to Tarmon Gai'don begins.
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****Spoiler Content****
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Douglas make a good point there. I've wondered if Rigney intended to suggest that this was the last circuit of the wheel, that maybe some events have gotten so far out of hand that the cycle of ages will not repeat at the end of this iteration. Things like certain of the archetypes being yanked out of Telarienrhiod (sp?), are some indicators. Where it goes now is not entirely up to Rigney though. New eyes and a new hand may introduce a new direction that none of us expect and that is still valid and satisfying for the reader.
****End Spoiler Content****
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* Note
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* I apologize for the spoiler, hadn't really noticed that you might not have gotten to some of the material in the previous.
* And had written in response to a previous post. I've taken the hint and marked it for you but the second part of the
* message is still valid.
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**** Newby safe portion of this message ****
Hey Miyabi liked your signature banner so I stole it as an homage. Hope it doesn't bug, my version is different.
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* Note
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* I could have just deleted my post but that would have been far less fun than using all the Asterisks. ;D
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Are we talking about things and throwing around terms that Myabi hasn't come across yet?
Telarienrhiod?
Tarmon Gai'don?
ta'veren?
Funny how those are all T words.
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no. people need to stop throwing spoiler terms and scenarios in here.
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all of you goofs who like to spoil **** can go post in shaggy's thread AMoL...I would love to join you
P.S. yes i am a hypocrit as i said a spoiler in the splitting AMoL thread and i was surprised to learn had readers that weren't finished with the series yet...why they were reading it i don't know...you think they would have expected me and my spoiler about someone doing something in book 11 or someone else saying something they wouldn't like to hear
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Thanks for marking it as a spoiler Renoard. If you hadn't I would have had to like . . . hurt you. ha ha.
Well I'm glad I'm starting fads. Someone else is using my color idea and you are using my signature idea. "]
@Douglas - oh I see. I thought it was saying that by the time the wheel has completely turned the last turning of the wheel is almost forgotten and I thought that the ages were sections of the wheel so one revolution went through all of the ages.
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You're right on that Miyabi, one rotation goes through all ages. But the implication is that there an an awful lot of ages and that each is maybe several thousand years, meaning that a full iteration includes ages that we have no knowledge of at all. (maybe even an age that includes WWI, WWII, etc.)
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OK, so wait. I'm confused as to why there are passages from the Fourth Age in the prologue (that sound like their talking about the events in the prologue) if it didn't take place in the Fourth Age?
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I could be wrong, but I think the intention is that the third age ends with the climax of the series and the narrator is writing history from the perspective of the fourth age. The Age of legends stuff, though, is from the past. The death of Elenya and the suicide by a bar of light that destroys a large chunk of land take place before the chapter 1 and are very ancient history to our narator and the characters.
I'm not sure if the prologue says those are in the fourth age but if so I think that might have either been a booboo or else ages are even LONGER than we are thinking.
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Chapter 11 - Chapter 13
Questions
So it IS possible for a male to successfully tap into the One Power right? Just the Aes Sedai don't like it because they are afraid they will become the Dragon and join the Dark One?
Is the Flame and the Void a teaching of sword-users such as Warders and Master Swordsmen?
Thoughts
The talk of the One Power not being wielded by men is way more than a 'it can't be done without going insane, drop it' type situation.
Things are moving too slowly for my taste. I want something more to happen. I'm sure it's just to build up the world and explain things in a timely manner, but I would like either A) more information on things such as Aes Sedai, Warders, Master Swordsman, etc. or B) More action.
Predictions
At least one of the boys in the party (perhaps more) will learn to tap into the One Power.
At least one of said boys will go insane and become a bad-guy in some fashion.
Egwene will be an extremely powerful Aes Sedai. Like extremely powerful. She will probably discover something lost that will help her become more powerful than others.
HA! There is someone else from the village that will come in later. Whoever it was that can touch the One Power.
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Not sure where you have gotten to so far geographically or chronologically, but the story will pick up. The disorientation you are dealing with is supposed to make you sympathize with the kids.
Were you looking for spoilers to answer those questions? :P
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So it IS possible for a male to successfully tap into the One Power right? Just the Aes Sedai don't like it because they are afraid they will become the Dragon and join the Dark One?
I can tell you that there is good reason why there are no male Aes Sedai. There is a "complication" with males using the one power, and no one is immune to it.
Is the Flame and the Void a teaching of sword-users such as Warders and Master Swordsmen?
Ya, just a little hint that Tam had some serious training somewhere in his past and he passed some of the concepts onto Rand.
Things are moving too slowly for my taste. I want something more to happen. I'm sure it's just to build up the world and explain things in a timely manner, but I would like either A) more information on things such as Aes Sedai, Warders, Master Swordsman, etc. or B) More action.
Looks like you just barely got to Baerlon. The stretch from Taren Ferry to Baerlon is a little boring, but I think it was meant that way. If you want more info about Aes Sedai, Warders, etc ... see if there is a glossary in the back of your book. The first time I read TEotW I was just as confused as you trying to understand these new terms. When I finished the book there were still some pages left, and they turned out to be a glossary with short descriptions of some new terms. I wished I had found that halfway through the book. :) But, I still enjoyed the book only half figuring out what all the new terms meant. ;D
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IMO, the entire first book is kinda slow. Once you get to the second one, its where it really picks up.
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without sounding too negative, the entire series is considered slow by many readers. Book 2 is my personal favorite due to the overall darker tone (and an awesome character that they never see again). but it is a rather slow series. it isn't too bad for the first 6 books. after that it seems to lag with spikes of action here and there. but that's just an opinion. it is not my intent to start a war or words. just saying, if you think book 1 is slow, you should prepare yourself for more of the same throughout the series.
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IMO, the entire first book is kinda slow. Once you get to the second one, its where it really picks up.
without sounding too negative, the entire series is considered slow by many readers. Book 2 is my personal favorite due to the overall darker tone (and an awesome character that they never see again). but it is a rather slow series. it isn't too bad for the first 6 books. after that it seems to lag with spikes of action here and there. but that's just an opinion. it is not my intent to start a war or words. just saying, if you think book 1 is slow, you should prepare yourself for more of the same throughout the series.
I'm forced to agree with both of the above posts.
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So it IS possible for a male to successfully tap into the One Power right? Just the Aes Sedai don't like it because they are afraid they will become the Dragon and join the Dark One?
The possibility of the Dragon has nothing to do with it. It's all about the inevitable insanity.
The talk of the One Power not being wielded by men is way more than a 'it can't be done without going insane, drop it' type situation.
No, it isn't. Not when you consider that "going insane" in this case very often means "man with the power to raise and flatten entire mountains at whim (in extreme cases, at least) goes on a murderous rampage and doesn't stop until he dies". This exact same insanity was the sole cause of the Breaking of the World, and the name of that event is not much of an exaggeration. The insanity does take time to manifest and does so gradually, but it always comes eventually unless the man in question dies or is forcibly prevented from using the One Power, usually by permanently destroying his ability to do so - and doing that has its own problems.
Is the Flame and the Void a teaching of sword-users such as Warders and Master Swordsmen?
Not necessarily just sword users specifically, but yes.
I'll have to go home and check my copy of the book to comment about any Fourth Age references in the prologue.
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@Ren - Not spoilers per se. If you look how everyone else answers where I get enough information to be satisfied, but not enough to spoil anything really. That is what I am looking for.
@Douglas - It's at the end, after the story part of it there are two passages that are dated the Fourth Age.
@Everyone - Thanks guys. I appreciate all of the feedback I am getting. "]
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In my opinion the pacing is just right. But it is scaled as if the story were one novel in multiple volumes. There isn't much of the traditional upslope, climax fall-off in each volume. The series as a whole does follow that pattern.
The action speeds up and slows in points for different characters. In my opinion however there is a huge upsurge in action some time after they head north.
I think every book has one or more real upsurges in action. But which characters are central to the action shifts.
Ah I would have taken a stab at the questions, except that I was seriously concerned about spoiling...
From a purely technical perspective it is possible that men can channel. But think about the things that moiraine is teaching the girls about wilders versus those with the spark, then apply that to men who have no Aes Sedai support system. Also what he said, violent mania like Lews Therin in the prologue... not an attractive future.
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Quote from: miyabi on Today at 03:35:48 PM
So it IS possible for a male to successfully tap into the One Power right? Just the Aes Sedai don't like it because they are afraid they will become the Dragon and join the Dark One?
I can tell you that there is good reason why there are no male Aes Sedai. There is a "complication" with males using the one power, and no one is immune to it.
Not strictly true. I guess you could say no one is 'immune,' but there is a way to prevent the consequences. But you'll learn about that much later, miyabi (I think :-\).
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Renoard speaks the word of power "Mua dhib!" and the spoiler is blasted into a million fragments.
Seriously, if you think about the description of the madness -- violence, killing, paranoia -- you really have to admit that no male channeler is free from the madness. One kind of violent sociopathic madness is much the same as the other, to the victims.
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Ok, with the text of the Fourth Age stuff in front of me I can explain the context.
First, they are both excerpts from histories. Notice that everything in both of them is in past tense.
Second, the first one is about the Breaking of the World and mentions "him they named Dragon". Note that 'Dragon' is an original name they gave him, not a previously existing identifier. It may have had a previous meaning, but it was not associated with one particular man before.
Third, the second one goes on in flowery language about the return of the Dragon - "Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time." The event it talks about is therefore after the Breaking of the World - and I'm sure you've figured out by now that the true Dragon has not returned at any point between the Breaking and the start of the series. Thus, it must be a history written after the events in the series, and I don't think it's much of a spoiler to say that we're working towards an Age transition.
The prologue occurs at the very end of the Second Age, also known as the Age of Legends. The series proper occurs near the end of the Third Age. The two excerpts at the end of the prologue are from histories written early in the Fourth Age after the end of the series.
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OOOHHH!
That makes SO much more sense now. Thanks. "]
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Happy to help. 8)
Most of the books have some sort of short passage or two in the front and back of the book describing something relevant to that book. Most of them are prophecies of some sort, but a few are excerpts from Fourth Age histories so this sort of thing comes up again.
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Ok, [snip]
First, they are both excerpts from histories. Notice that everything in both of them is in past tense.
[snip]
The prologue occurs at the very end of the Second Age, also known as the Age of Legends. The series proper occurs near the end of the Third Age. The two excerpts at the end of the prologue are from histories written early in the Fourth Age after the end of the series.
I thought I said that... Of course not so clearly outlined.
And yeah I don't think it's a spoiler to point that out either. But the madness question is getting into that. I had a thought in all this I think I'll pm Douglas with.
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Myabi - Have you read much lately? Have you gotten past Baerlon? It picks up a little bit after Baerlon, but then slows down a little bit again (I think). Just wondering how you're enjoying EotW.
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Yeah, I've read a few chapters. I've just been busy. Ha Ha. I'm somewhere in the middle of the Baerlon section.
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i think i heard your yawn from here. Baerlon...<shudder>
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Baerlon is a cool place to hang out. Kesumi almost never finds me there...
Oh was that outloud?
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Chapter 14 - Chapter 15
Questions
So, they go looking for the Eye in this book then the Horn in the next one right? >>'
Who does Ba'alzamon sound familiar? Does it have some real world connection of some sort?
Does Min end up joining the group later? I like her. ha ha.
Thoughts
It took me long enough to get through these two chapters. xD Lots of business and such.
I am liking how all of the "legends" are beginning to become reality to the group.
This section was interesting. The dream sequence, again, was well done. I just wish they would tell Moiraine so I know what she would say. ha ha.
Predictions
Thom will be with the group for longer than he wanted to be.
Nynaeve is going to be extremely annoying and will insist on tagging along.
The Children WON'T forget Rand . . . and that will cause major problems later on.
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Ba'al or lord was one of the generic terms for gods among the asiatics of the middle east (Assyrians, Kaananites, Hittites, Hebrews which in my opinion should be Ivrites but I don't work in the court of King James ;P ) Ba'al Zebub and Ba'al Zafan are cognates of Thor (hittite Tharh) the storm God.
Hey you caught me with my pants down so to speak my own book deal with these figures quite a bit... ;)
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It was Ba'al Zebub that I was thinking.
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Chapter 14 - Chapter 15
Questions
So, they go looking for the Eye in this book then the Horn in the next one right? >>'
That's what the title would seem to suggest, but I'll leave the actual details for you to find out....
Who does Ba'alzamon sound familiar? Does it have some real world connection of some sort?
See above. Note that many of the things from WoT are based on real world religion and mythology to some extent, and it's kinda fun to find the connections.
Does Min end up joining the group later? I like her. ha ha.
I'll just say that yes, she is a significant character, and you will see more of her.
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Min is fun.
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Ba'al Zebub is either Sammael (Satan's angelic name after he was cast out Satan is a title) or his right hand man depending on your source its a stupid debate. Ba'al was the king of the asyrian gods and the hebrews commonly took other peoples gods to cast as powerful demons in modern spelling he is Beelezebub or Lord of the Flies, he was the demon that the Sageses and Farisese said Jesus got his powers from in the Gospels.
And miyabi don't listen to the pestimist the first 100 pages or so are slow but its a build up of info for a huge series and you need the info 9 and 10 i thought were slow and i've heard and can see the argument that 7-10 are slow but as for the first six it picks up soon don't worry.
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So, they go looking for the Eye in this book then the Horn in the next one right?
Hmm, can't really answer that. But by your reasoning, they would later need to seek, among other things, a path of daggers, a knife of dreams, and a crossroads of twilight.
Does Min end up joining the group later? I like her. ha ha.
Not sure you'd call it joining the group, but you'll definitely see her again.
This section was interesting. The dream sequence, again, was well done.
Good thing you like Jordan's dream sequences, because there are a lot of them throughout the series. Personally, I thought they got old and started to skim them, which probably accounts for a good deal of my confusion about what's going on. ;)
As for your predictions, I can only say that they're getting more and more accurate as you go along. Either you're coming to know the book and its characters better, or you're choosing safer events to predict. :)
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As for your predictions, I can only say that they're getting more and more accurate as you go along. Either you're coming to know the book and its characters better, or you're choosing safer events to predict. :)
Nah, he's probably a witch, and using dark magic to make proper predictions, which means we need a good ol' fashun burnin' at the stake!!
That or he's reading spoilers :P
(Also note that i'm joking obviously with both. I think he's just making pretty good guesses with some.)
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well he could be reading spoilers and then throwing in some wrong predictions to throw us off... ::)
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or it's just that obvious?
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I don't read spoilers. They annoy me. I'm just good at guessing. I am usually right about what will happen in a book about half way through it. I haven't decided if the foreshadowing makes the book good, or a completely unpredictable ending is what is good. :\ Depends on my mood I guess.
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…and the quality of the book…
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Nynaeve is going to be extremely annoying and will insist on tagging along.
Nynaeve? Annoying? Never... :D
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I don't read spoilers. They annoy me. I'm just good at guessing. I am usually right about what will happen in a book about half way through it. I haven't decided if the foreshadowing makes the book good, or a completely unpredictable ending is what is good. :\ Depends on my mood I guess.
Right, a witch, got it! :P
Nynaeve is going to be extremely annoying and will insist on tagging along.
Nynaeve? Annoying? Never... :D
Right, and the dark one is actually captain kangaroo ::)
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Nynaeve? Annoying? Never... :D
Everyone take notice that I did not say this. Though the prediction was 1000% accurate...
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No the Captain is Moridin, The Dark One is Mr. Green Jeans.
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I'm bouncy kangaroo and I'm from far away. I like to hop hop hop all day.
xDDD I couldn't help myself.
EDIT: I'm putting this on hold until I get caught up in school. It should only take a week or so. . . . I hope. :\
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Darn that school! :'(
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It's all good Thall. I am actually going to start reading again tonight. :]
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Hey Miyabi, glad your enjoying WoT: tEotW :)
I'll just add that I like Min too.
Come on guys Nynaeve isn't all that bad, there are far worse women in the books. Far worse.
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Bout time for an update eh Miyabi?
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She is certainly not evil–she's just very, very, very annoying (and whiny).
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Yeah, within the next day or two. I got distracted when I Am Not A Serial Killer came in the mail. I'm almost done reading it. ha ha.
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I'm currently doing a WoT reread to prepare for the 12th book in November and I loved reading your first impressions! I know it's been a month but I hope you continue with it! :)
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I haven't really commented on miyabi's comments, but if he renews his commenting, I shall begin mine. I like listening to people's thoughts on WOT.
Nynaeve = Satan. I hate her. A lot. Like with a burning fiery passion. And her braid.
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*falls out of chair* she can't be that bad *laughs* i mean she is a self centered brat but in 15 years she will be at Lanfear level she kicks ass
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but in 15 years she will be at Lanfear level
And look what happened to Lanfear! I guess I have something to look forward to though, when Nynaeve gets destroyed by other people who are much more awesomer than she is.
Mostly I just hate her because her mannerisms and personality annoy me. And because every time I read something about her, she just seems whiny. And because every time I read something about her, I think something along the lines of, "Wow, Nynaeve is pretty much useless right now. Despite being stronger in the power than pretty much all of the other Wondergirls, she has been outdone by all of them. And she still hasn't really done much that was all that productive that couldn't have been done by others. I wish she would die. Or get eaten by a trolloc, which tends to involve dying. And she just distracts from the other, much cooler, much less annoying, and much more useful characters." So yeah. Those are my general feelings on the matter. It's like other people feel about Faile (which I never really got. I like her fine, although I'll occasionally will still pronounce her name as FAIL just for the fun of it), or Elayne (which I also never really got). Not necessarily rational, but my extreme hatred is there nonetheless. I like most everyone else though.
I've just had an epiphany. The reason I don't like nynaeve is (on top of all those other things) that she pretends to be a lot more smart and/or mature than she really is. I hate people that do this in real life, and one of my greatest pleasures is making people who think that they know what they are talking about sound like total idiots. True, I occasionally think things that aren't right, or even guess at what may be the case, but when I do, I don't state it as fact. It's people that do state it as fact that annoy me. So there's the other reason. I guess. I think. Yes.
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So because you are unsure of your opinions, no one else is entitled to have one. Hmmm. doesn't sound healthy.
But Nyneave does have a similar chip on her shoulder. She never got the chance to grow up before she was forced to take responsibility for the community as wisdom. She had a responsibility and no one was willing to cooperate or give her the respect she needed to do her job. So she started attacking verbally to cow the congers into submission, for their own benefit. They were just obstructionist and constantly trying to "put her in her place" which caused lot's of trouble. . .
Hey your name isn't Andrew Conger is it? :P
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but in 15 years she will be at Lanfear level
And because every time I read something about her, I think something along the lines of, "Wow, Nynaeve is pretty much useless right now. Despite being stronger in the power than pretty much all of the other Wondergirls, she has been outdone by all of them. And she still hasn't really done much that was all that productive that couldn't have been done by others.
*Gasp!* Just think back to a scene where her and Rand go back to Shadar Logoth/Aridhol! >:(
A far more ann0ying character, imo, is Elayne.
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but in 15 years she will be at Lanfear level
And because every time I read something about her, I think something along the lines of, "Wow, Nynaeve is pretty much useless right now. Despite being stronger in the power than pretty much all of the other Wondergirls, she has been outdone by all of them. And she still hasn't really done much that was all that productive that couldn't have been done by others.
*Gasp!* Just think back to a scene where her and Rand go back to Shadar Logoth/Aridhol! >:(
A far more ann0ying character, imo, is Elayne.
First of all, observe the bold text. There are other Aes Sedai Rand could have linked with and done the same thing. Besides, Rand did the work there, not Nynaeve. She just sat there and let him pull saidar through.
Second, I'll agree that Elayne is annoying. But only after she becomes pregnant. Before that, she was actually one of my favorites.
So because you are unsure of your opinions, no one else is entitled to have one. Hmmm. doesn't sound healthy.
Not sure whether you're joking about this part or not, so I'll assume not. It's not that no one else is allowed to have opinions. It's not even that I'm unsure of mine. It's that I don't state my opinions as fact. They usually include the words "I think" in them. If not, I try to make it clear that it's my opinion.
I also really don't mind it so much when it's about issues that no one really knows fully. Like theorizing on a forum. We can't really be sure, and neither can anyone else. So, we all just state our opinions as fact.
I don't even mind this if it's a well-informed opinion. The best example I can think of is when people decide that nuclear power is going to cause the end of the world, or that the US government has enough oil to run every car in the country for a year. Basically, the only time it really annoys me is when people take their opinions and make up facts to support them. That's really what I was trying to say.
By the way, I agree with the most of the rest of your post.
Hey your name isn't Andrew Conger is it? :P
Maybe..... ;)
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I'll get back to this soon, hopefully. I just keep picking it up and starting to read, but then I just think about how huge this series is and become all blah about the whole thing and only read a page or so and want to like, not read it. ha ha. xD
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I'll get back to this soon, hopefully. I just keep picking it up and starting to read, but then I just think about how huge this series is and become all blah about the whole thing and only read a page or so and want to like, not read it. ha ha. xD
I did my re-read-through on my 80 mile daily drive with audio books. It's the only way I made it through the last half of the series. Even then, It was all I could do not to completely skip sections that were insanely repetitive. So yeah, I know what you mean. To me, book 2 was the high point.
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If book 2 is the high point then I'm seriously going to be in trouble once I get to book three and realize I past the best part. ha ha.
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I did my re-read-through on my 80 mile daily drive with audio books. It's the only way I made it through the last half of the series. Even then, It was all I could do not to completely skip sections that were insanely repetitive. So yeah, I know what you mean. To me, book 2 was the high point.
Miyabi - I've learned to respect Important Bookstore Guy's opinions on these forums, BUT I've also learned he's not your average WoT fan. He is much more critical of WoT than most of us WoT fans on this forum. I would take his WoT opinions with a grain of salt. ;)
I definitely like book 2, but I feel that the series really takes off around the end of book 3. I think books 4 and 5 are my favorite.
I'll get back to this soon, hopefully. I just keep picking it up and starting to read, but then I just think about how huge this series is and become all blah about the whole thing and only read a page or so and want to like, not read it. ha ha. xD
A huge epic fantasy story makes you feel "blah"?
Hmmmm, sounds like you aren't a fan of big long epic fantasy series. Not sure if you'll like WoT then, since that's exactly what it is.
I think Robert Jordan is a master story teller and I love his writing style. Try the first book and see if you like it!
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eye of the world takes a while to get into but the series is worth it... bookstore guy is more than just more critical about WoT he sees it from a different perspective book 1 3 and 11 are my favorites in the series and only a few books i've read are as good as them ie Memories of Ice, Stranger in a strange land, time enough for love, 1984, to kill a mockingbird, and about 4 others they are amazing!!!
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It's not that I don't like epic fantasies, because I do like them. It's just daunting to think there is THAT much material I'm behind on. I'm used to being ahead of the game on things.
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Yeah, I know the feeling. You should also know that I didn't like book 2. I did, however, love books 3, 5, 6, 9, and 11. And 11 is my favorite so far, though 6 was close. It's all just a matter of what you come to like about the series. Keep reading, eventually something will pull you in and you'll like it as much as the rest of us. If not, well then I guess you can hate me forever. But I doubt that will happen (and when I say "that," it applies to both possible antecedents....you hating me or you not liking the book. Is that the right word? Antecedent? Now I can't remember... Oh well. You all know what I mean anyway.).
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I did my re-read-through on my 80 mile daily drive with audio books. It's the only way I made it through the last half of the series. Even then, It was all I could do not to completely skip sections that were insanely repetitive. So yeah, I know what you mean. To me, book 2 was the high point.
Miyabi - I've learned to respect Important Bookstore Guy's opinions on these forums, BUT I've also learned he's not your average WoT fan. He is much more critical of WoT than most of us WoT fans on this forum. I would take his WoT opinions with a grain of salt. ;)
this is true. it's not that i dislike WoT, it's just that (in my personal opinion) it is a good representation of 90's fantasy, and not a good representation of current fantasy. the genre has changed, and in my opinion, for the better. I like the current style of fantasy much better than the Brooks, Eddings, Jordan, and Dragonlance fantasy. I do respect Jordan immensely, and I understand how much current fantasy is a product of past fantasy - but I yeah, i am critical of WoT. and Kaz puts it right - im not just critical; i look at it completely differently (I have read the full series about 4 or 5 times).
miyabi - dont get put off reading any series because of how much material there is. if anything, this is a blessing. you dont have to wait forever for the next novel to come out. It's like when you discover a TV series that has 4 seasons already out on DVD - you get to have awesome marathon sessions of watching and catching up while other wait in agony. lol!
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has the genre really changed that much in 10-15 years that Authors who wrote in the 90s are now passe?
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of course the genre has changed over the past 15 years. the industry has changed as well. if the genre hadnt changed, we'd still be reading Tolkien rip-offs like we were for decades. There is a ton on innovation and originality going on.
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Like B.S.'s kick ___ magic systems
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miyabi - dont get put off reading any series because of how much material there is. if anything, this is a blessing. you dont have to wait forever for the next novel to come out. It's like when you discover a TV series that has 4 seasons already out on DVD - you get to have awesome marathon sessions of watching and catching up while other wait in agony. lol!
I'm definitely hearing that one. I'm hating having to wait until next year to see the second season of United States of Tara.
Alright, IF I'm not completely dead by the end of today (I'm sick and I have about three days worth of school work to do, plus a full shift of work. UGH) Then I will read a couple chapters and get a new thing written. HOEPFULLY.
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Your all wrong, Books 2 and 3 are not the high points, that's 4 and 5. Though I found book 8 to be good, book 9 to be kick ass. Book 10 though is the one that's really the problem of the series, though it picks back up in book 11.
I guess I'm one of the few that enjoys the fact that this is such a long series. I mean sometimes a Stand-alone or Trilogy just isn't enough for me.
I've also found that just because someone is smart and has good opinions you don't always have to agree with them. I still think the Pros of this series far out-weigh the Cons.
Frankly I can't wait for that 10 book Epic Fantasy Brandon keeps talking about. *hehe* :)
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Brooks, IMHO doesn't belong in the same group with Eddings et al. He is better categorized with Lewis and Tolkien, because he focuses more on the poetics of the story and the world than character development of storytelling. He does it well but is not really part of the same movement with Eddings, Feist, Salvatore and Morcock. For the record this group is not characteristic of 90's fiction. They were a feature of the 80's.
Jordan could be described as an aeration because the scope and scale of WoT subsumes the four authors I cited, blends their master works and improves on them with characterization that is the foundation of what Books refers to as "current" fantasy.
Book two seems to wrap up the real prologue, and for those with literary HADD it comes across as the high point. But, when you realize that WoT is really only one novel and relax enough to accept a volumes-long story arc, you can see that no one of the volumes is really much better or worse than the others. They all serve a niche that is required by the story. A tale like this can't be endless car chases, flashing lights and explosions. Short and quick or even suspenseful dramatic is not always the best choice. When the only tool in your box is a hammer, you see the whole world as nothing but nails.
But then, I've only read the entire series 6 times or so, so I may be being hasty with my assessment. ;P
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OK, I'm going to go take a bath right now and read some more of this book. ha ha.
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Chapter 16 - Chapter 17
Questions
OK, so I'm a bit sketchy since it took me SOOOO long to read this part.
Does Min come back later?
Was the one Child of light actually a Drakghar?
Is it possible that all three of the boys have the ability to become the Dragon?
Are Aes Sedai better at certain types of magic? As in they each have certain aspects that are easier for them than other Aes Sedai?
Thoughts
This part starts to go faster and a lot of stuff happened once I actually got to the second half of Chapter 17. ROFL.
I really want to know how much more the Aes Sedai can do. So far I've seen her heal, but for some of that she needed the uhm, that thing that helped her do better, but she didn't need it for making her self HUGE. So I think Aes Sedai better at certain types of magic.
Predictions
All of the boys will have a chance to become the Dragon, but only Rand will chose to do that. The other boys will learn different types of magic or something.
Nynaeve will eventually learn at least something about Aes Sedai magic, if even only so that she can find some reason to hate it more.
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Chapter 16 - Chapter 17
Questions
OK, so I'm a bit sketchy since it took me SOOOO long to read this part.
Does Min come back later?
Yup!
Was the one Child of light actually a Drakghar?
Not to my knowledge, unless i missed something entirely. Drakghar themselves don't have the ability to change how they look to "blend in" or anything that i'm aware of.
Is it possible that all three of the boys have the ability to become the Dragon?
Because of how the mythology behind the WoT series works, and what the dragon is specifically, I can't see this being a possibility, it's just incompatible with how it works. That being said, no, it isn't possible.
Are Aes Sedai better at certain types of magic? As in they each have certain aspects that are easier for them than other Aes Sedai?
Yup, just like someone who practices one thing over the other, you can be good at one thing, and bad at another.
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Does Min come back later?
Yes. The Law of Conservation of Characters might as well have been written specifically for the Wheel of Time. There are a great many minor characters that come back later and get more important. Min is one of them.
Was the one Child of light actually a Drakghar?
Draghkar don't really disguise well, and no shadowspawn have shapechanging abilities (with one very special exception you'll learn about later. Much later).
Is it possible that all three of the boys have the ability to become the Dragon?
No. The Dragon Reborn is Lews Therin Telamon reincarnated. His identity was determined at or before birth.
Are Aes Sedai better at certain types of magic? As in they each have certain aspects that are easier for them than other Aes Sedai?
Of course. There are even some things that can't be done at all without the right Talent (capitalized). You'll learn a lot more about this and all other aspects of the magic system when point of view characters start learning it.
I really want to know how much more the Aes Sedai can do. So far I've seen her heal, but for some of that she needed the uhm, that thing that helped her do better, but she didn't need it for making her self HUGE. So I think Aes Sedai better at certain types of magic.
I think the Giant Moiraine thing was mostly just illusion, though it's never really explained how that let her get to the other side of the wall and she never does it again. The thing that increases her power is an angreal.
All of the boys will have a chance to become the Dragon, but only Rand will chose to do that. The other boys will learn different types of magic or something.
No, Rand is the Dragon and that's the end of it. The other boys do get their own important abilities and roles, though.
Nynaeve will eventually learn at least something about Aes Sedai magic, if even only so that she can find some reason to hate it more.
RAFO.
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Does Min come back later?
Yes. The Law of Conservation of Characters might as well have been written specifically for the Wheel of Time. There are a great many minor characters that come back later and get more important. Min is one of them.
Unlike the prophecy woman in Eragon, much more interesting character.
Was the one Child of light actually a Drakghar?
Draghkar don't really disguise well, and no shadowspawn have shapechanging abilities (with one very special exception you'll learn about later. Much later).
Is it possible that all three of the boys have the ability to become the Dragon?
No. The Dragon Reborn is Lews Therin Telamon reincarnated. His identity was determined at or before birth.
How did you come to these theories?
I really want to know how much more the Aes Sedai can do. So far I've seen her heal, but for some of that she needed the uhm, that thing that helped her do better, but she didn't need it for making her self HUGE. So I think Aes Sedai better at certain types of magic.
I think the Giant Moiraine thing was mostly just illusion, though it's never really explained how that let her get to the other side of the wall and she never does it again. The thing that increases her power is an angreal.
I think she did use the giant as an illusion and simply walked through the gate because the WC were distracted and watching the giant Moriane. It's one of those things that may never get explained though and only be in theory.
Nynaeve will eventually learn at least something about Aes Sedai magic, if even only so that she can find some reason to hate it more.
RAFO.
Yeah she'll learn a little bit about Channeling.
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I maintain that channeling is not strictly magic, because it is something that was used as a power source for a high tech society in the past. That is evident in the prologues you've read so far, I believe. I think Rigney was trying to use the old proverb, Any sufficiently advanced technology would appear to be magic to primitives. That's a paraphrase not a quote.
I think he meant it to be analogous to post apocalyptic renaissance types, still using portable holo-emitters and ray guns with nearly infinite renewable power-cell.
****Spoiler content hereafter****
The ways, for instance, are a take off on Greg Bear's Eon. And the Ael/Eel-finn could be Rigney's projection of factions among neo-morph humans.
****End Spoiler****
All I'm saying is the WoT books are a hot bed of Syncretism and violation of the classical "fantasy" forms and types. Probably intended as a way of saying see fantasy can be sci-fi too.
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So in the past channeling was common place and was just a technology, but now that it's rare and unknown it just seems like magic to everyone? o.O
I guess that could make sense.
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That's my take on it at least. Hey sorry about any spoiler terms, gonna edit my last post. To remove them. Don't think I did any real damage though.
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Channelling fueled the technology before the breaking but it isn't technology... it is one of two parts of the power of creation... thats why a man and a woman linked are more powerful than 2 women even if the women are the same strength as the guy...
Some people have natural affinities for different elements of the one power and mixing the elements of water air and spirit for healing is supposedly classified as a talent so yes even in relative OP strength some people are more skilled in different areas... like egwene can't heal for crap and she can do some serious damage
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Thanks guys. I love your input. :]
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So in the past channeling was common place and was just a technology, but now that it's rare and unknown it just seems like magic to everyone? o.O
I guess that could make sense.
Actually channeling IS magic, RJ just uses physics to explain it's use and how it works. Channeling seems tied to the Soul and if it was a Technology, anyone could learn it. As it is only about 1% of the populace does, and that's from RJ himself.
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Chapter 18 - Chapter 19
Questions
Mordeth will come back later no?
Was it Mordeth that killed the original army that once stayed in Aridhal? (sp?)
Thoughts
Some fun stuff happened.
I liked that we start to see more creatures and what they can do.
Predictions
Uhm, not really much of anything really just from these two chapters.
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Mordeth both appears and yet never does so again.... chew on that for a while...evil that opposes the DO lives in Shadar Logoth and that killed all the trollocs...part of that evil being Mashadar the mist that you see coming out at night
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Arhihol (arid hole) is important in fact critical to the plot. But you won't see it for a while. You can pretty much assume that Jordan does spend much ink on waster characters or settings. If he takes the time to introduce you, you'll probably meet again. That's just a rule of thumb.
You've really only scraped a thin veneer off the zoo of creatures that he uses. But they tend to fall into categories in ways that keep them from seeing overdone or busy.