Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Turbolinux999 on February 22, 2009, 01:53:16 AM
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Obviously this thread is going to have a large amount of SPOILERS. If you've not read all three Mistborn books you're in for surprises.
Mr. Sanderson has said in the MB3 spoiler thread that, if he does write the next series, there will be no Mistborn and that Feruchemy will have followed a similar path of degeneration. I don't know if this was supposed to mean that there will be no more full Feruchemists or just that there are now Feruchemical 'Mistings' as well(It would seem odd if the former were the case because you'd think that TLR's breeding program would have caused it after a thousand years.).
Either way, just like Allomantic Mistings, I would think that Feruchemical ones would get names that matched their abilities.
Being as presumptuous as I am, I have decided to post a list of names that I like for Feruchemical Mistings. I think it would be cool for their ""Official"" titles be the name of the metalmind that they can use, but, just like Allomancers, they have a ""Common"" name as well. That's what I'm here to suggest; here are my names(And quick reference for those that don't remember or can't infer from the names):
Ironmind : Anchor -- Physical Weight
Steelmind : Sprinter(little_wilson) -- Physical Speed
Tinmind : Afferent(Eerongal) -- Senses
Pewtermind : Brute -- Physical Strength
Zincmind : Savant(Inspired by CptSqweky) -- Mental Speed
Brassmind : Sink(Inspired by douglas) -- Warmth
Coppermind : Keeper -- Memories
Bronzemind : Insomniac(little_wilson) -- Wakefulness
Goldmind : Immortal(CptSqweky) -- Health
Electrummind :
Aluminummind : Stone -- Pain(Speculation)
Duraluminmind :
Cadmiummind :
Not-Cerrobendmind :
Chromiummind :
Nicrosilmind :
Some of those names are crap, but that's part of the reason that I'm posting it here: To have other people make suggestions for better names.
On top of these names for metalminds, I also came up with names to differentiate between Feruchemical and Allomantic Mistings, as always, I welcome suggestions for changes and whatnot:
Burner - Allomantic Mistings.
Tapper - Feruchemical Mistings.
Misting - Someone that can burn one metal and store in a different one.
(Metal name) Misting - Someone that can burn one metal and store in the same metal.
Full (Metal name) Misting - Someone that can burn one metal and store in all of them.
The other metal's abilities are not listed here for the rather obvious reason that Mr. Sanderson has yet to tell us what the other metals do Feruchemically. I remember him saying in his LiveJournal entry for the Allomancy poster that, if it was popular, he'd produce one for Feruchemy and Hemalurgy as well. That would help a lot.
Anyway, tell me what you think, suggest any names where you think they would be better, wildly speculate about what the other metals do Feruchemically, etc.
And always remember to think about what kind of special names there may be if a Feruchemical Misting is also an Allomantic Misting of the same metal. What would be the name of a Pewtermind that was also a Pewterarm? Interesting things to think about...
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Firstly I would like to say welcome to the forums, and that linux rulez!
Don't be disheartened by all of us tearing apart anything you say or do. We do it to EVERYONE and often times later find out we are wrong. We are, generally speaking, a fun loving and . . . . argumentatively creative group (that's a good description I think.) So yeah, hope you stick around a while.
I could say stuff about all of them, but for now I will just talk about one so that I am the first to welcome you. xP
Anchor - But they, as we saw Sazed to, can also make their weight all go into a mind at once and make themselves super light. :/ So I'm not sure it fits that well.
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Actually, I was just thinking that out of all of those, I like Anchor the most. Sure, you get light at first, but once you take the weight back out you get heavy. I think Anchor is great. I also liked Brute. Heater... ehhh... the jury's still out on that one, since they'd only be warming themselves up. And yes, Keeper should definately be the name for Coppermind users.
The rest... yeah...
My own suggestions, not very good either, but maybe they'll get someone else thinking of something better:
Steelmind: Sprinter
Tinmind: Watcher. Or alternatively: Guard. Or maybe: Sentinel.
Zincmind: Genius. Or alternatively: Voluntary Seizure Victim
Bronzemind: Caffeine addict
Goldmind: Immortal
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Zincmind: Genius. Or alternatively: Voluntary Seizure Victim
If I would've had anything in my mouth, I would've spewed just now....
Anchor= Good. Miyabi makes a good point, but so does Sqweky. I think it should stay.
Sprinter= I like. Not perfect, but I do like it.
Keeper=perfect
Watcher=Decent. Needs a bit of perfecting. Don't have any ideas for it right now...
Immortal= :)
My ideas:
Steelmind: Speedster
Bronzemind: Insomniac
Also, for the Brassmind, maybe it could be a play off the hot-cold thing, since the person can also technically be really cold. I don't have any names right now, but something that gets the idea of hot-cold. For example, thermometers and air conditioners. Those aren't actually ideas for names, because they would never work, but that's just kind of an idea of what I mean by hot-cold. Something along those lines....
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Brassmind: Firefighter?
Walk right into a bonfire and start dumping all the heat into your brassminds so you don't burn. Just be careful to stop at exactly the same time you get out of the fire so you don't end up a frozen popsicle.
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Brassmind: Firefighter?
Walk right into a bonfire and start dumping all the heat into your brassminds so you don't burn. Just be careful to stop at exactly the same time you get out of the fire so you don't end up a frozen popsicle.
Wow nice!! Thats a really great application!
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I like Keeper, Brute, Sentinel and Anchor. Those would be my choices for names.
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My ideas:
Bronzemind: Insomniac
I like this one.
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miyabi:
Thank you very much for the welcome. I know people on forums can seems like(Or be) asses, but I've used forums quite extensively in the past so I'm prepared. ;)
Your point about Anchors got me thinking and second-guessing that name but, upon further thinking, I can't come up with a truly practical use for the 'make-yourself-lighter' effect that would outweigh the 'make-yourself-a-mobile-weight' effect. Of course there should be exceptions to that, but I really think that the 'Anchor' ability would be the most obvious and frequently used effect.
CptSqweky:
I'm glad you liked at least some of my ideas. I'll expand on some of the reasons for my choices for names and at the same time I'll voice my opinions about yours.
Steelmind: Sprinter -- I didn't want it to be tied to running because stored speed can be put to use in any aspect of physical movement. Besides, how much speed would a Steelmind have to store to outrun a Thug in a pewterdrag(And live)?
Tinmind: Watcher. Or alternatively: Guard. Or maybe: Sentinel. -- Watcher and Guard are too much like common words and would generate confusion as the only way to tell if you higher a guard or a Guard is the capitalization. I like Sentinel, but I think that that should be the name for a Bronzemind.
Zincmind: Genius. Or alternatively: Voluntary Seizure Victim -- Again, confusion over a common term. Seizure? Maybe an Autistic... Maybe Autist?
Bronzemind: Caffeine addict -- Funny, I like it. I think that Sentinel would be good for this one.
Goldmind: Immortal -- I like it, but it feels like it doesn't fit. I think the Goldmind is going to be one of the more difficult to name...
little_wilson:
Insomniac works really well for a Bronzemind. I'm not going to edit the line about Sentinels above, but it just occurred to me that it's too specific. Insomniac is perfect.
douglas:
Something like that had never even occurred to me at all, it's genius. And it would be perfect except for one thing: fire consumes oxygen. I'd like to come up with something that conveys both concepts... What do you think of Sink? Like a heat sink; made to absorb heat and then radiate it back out.
I'm going to edit the first post with the best ideas(Properly credited to their creators) so that people know what's already been discussed.
Thanks for all the new input, but where is the wild speculation that I demanded? Is there already a thread for that? ;D
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Zincmind: Genius. Or alternatively: Voluntary Seizure Victim -- Again, confusion over a common term. Seizure? Maybe an Autistic... Maybe Autist?
Ummm... Just so you know, VSV was a joke. But it makes sense because a seizure happens when neural activity shoots up really high. There's a joke, I forget who said it, that goes: "I once used 90% of my brain. It was called a seizure." My wife has seizures, so I know a little bit about these things.
I don't know much about autism, though. Is excessive neural activity a common symptom? Like I said, I don't know much about it, but what little I do know would suggest that it's not, since its more of a genetic thing.
I'm going to edit the first post with the best ideas(Properly credited to their creators) so that people know what's already been discussed.
Also, you do know that "BEST" is an extremely subjective term, right? You can change it to what you think is best, but it seems as though everyone has had a different idea as to what is "best". I would suggest you say you've changed it to your favorites, otherwise... well... you just look stupid to all the people who disagree with you.
Also... DO NOT credit that "antic" thin to me. To be honest, I hate it, I think it's dumb, and I didn't come up with it, you did.
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Zincmind: Spark (do to the sudden increase of brain activity)
Steelmind: Sprinter
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Zincmind: Spark (do to the sudden increase of brain activity)
Good name... but it's taken by the Foglios with their "Girl Genius" webcomic.
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Me = never read. ha ha.
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That's too bad. It is seriously the best webcomic ever. Better than Schlock Mercenary, better that OOTS, better than Penny Arcade.
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I really do hope that other people come to contribute, I like new ideas and challenges to my own.
Plus, I demand wild speculation! :D
CptSqweky:
When I mention Autism I specifically mean the Savant side of it(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savant_syndrome). I'm an idiot; that's a much better name. Silly me. I am a seizure victim as well(I've got the scars to prove it too), I understood that it was a joke, it had just got me thinking and I try as much as possible to put my thoughts out as they come.
I took as assumed that when I said 'best' I meant 'what I liked the most' seeing as 'best' is entirely arbitrary. Also, I didn't like 'Antist' either, but I didn't like any of the others. What do you think of Savant?
Also, the 'Inspired by' term I use to mean that the person's comments got me thinking in such a way that it lead me to that name.
miyabi:
I like Spark, that's cool and it'll probably get more votes than Savant will. Sprinter I still don't like. Someone who just runs isn't very useful(Especially if it's to take place in modern, radio-using times.). I just keep thinking back to all the fighting that Sazed had to do; I see him tapping the steel lock on the Kandra cage for the speed to out maneuver the Fifths in combat in MB3 and I can't resign the Steelmind title to something that sounds so limited.
I don't want to be a despot, I'd like people to vote for what they like and I'll label them 'best' and put them up in the main list, but I just really hate a limiting term when the ability can be used in such broad ways.
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tinmind: Afferent or Sensorial?
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It's a hell of a lot better than Sensor! Afferent it is!
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For some reason the word Afferent makes me think of this, but I don't know why:
We are no longer the knights who say ni. We are now the knights who say ekki ekki ekki ptang zoom boing zurningham.
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Oh my gosh. It's Monty Python! I'm so glad I finally watched that movie a couple months ago otherwise I totally wouldn't have got that....And I'm afraid that I can't help you with the relationship 'afferent' has to the Knights who used to say Ni. (although on semi-related side note, I now have a craving to start saying 'Ni' all the time....Hmm....)
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I have to agree with Miyabi on anchor. We see in many fights where it is better to loose weight to be able to jump off a cliff and be light as a feather and float down or to jump high in the air and be out of the way of others. It could also be a food mode of transport to have someone carry you. Maybe something like undulator for fluctuator for there drastic changes in weight.
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My two cents: I really like the term Anchor, even if it only describes half the ability. The ability to float might occasionally come in handy, but the extra weight is really impressive in battle. It sticks in the mind.
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Ironmind : Anchor is good but how about Featherweight. It describes both aspects of the "talent."
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I like featherweight.
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I like featherweight better then the two I had. Its more descriptive of both aspects of the ability. I believe it in the book Brandon is going to use both aspects as benifits so it would be better to have both in the name.
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What about Brawler for Pewtermind
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Rrikor:
I've only seen the weight storing being effective in non-combat situations: Sazed in his Kandra cage and Sazed as he dropped down in to the valley where the Conventical of Seran was. And remember, he did have to use his Pewtermind to help him break his fall, it doesn't seem to be a light-as-a-feather thing. I suspect that if it were then storing strength would makes you unable to move and storing eyesight would make you blind.
I actually considered the being carried or even thrown angle of the ability but there is the very real question of practicality. While those could have their uses(And obviously they will) the most practical use for and Ironmind would be to be an immovable object, a center of battle that no matter how hard you hit they simply cannot be moved, or a battering ram, etc. As I said in my initial response to miyabi I'm hoping for creative exceptions to this as they should definitely exist, but I can't see most as using both sides equally. I have it in my mind as more of an Ironmind's base state is extremely light, constantly storing weight simply as a matter of moving faster and being more agile(Nothing matching a Steelmind, I'm sure, but to a regular person, I'd see a light Ironmind appearing 'adept') and that the main focus of the Ironmind's powers would be the strategic use of weight. I see that as the common thing for them to be. Of course, as with the nature of 'common', there will be people who strive to be the opposite, but I don't know all that is in Mr. Sanderson's mind so I don't know how it could all play out for an opposite of my perception.
miyabi:
I do like Featherweight, but I still like Anchor better. ;)
When I choose Brute for the Pewtermind I specifically wanted something that mirrored the common Allomantic name for the user of the metal, especially since the effects are so very similar. I would have gone with the same thing for Tinmind's as well, but I've always hated that Tin burners were called Tineyes. I understand it for the mist-filled world but the world in which these new names are going to be created is going to be mist-free(At least gaseous-body-of-Preservation-mist-free). I don't know...
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If I remember correctly, it's stated that Sazed used his weight in battle in the second book, during the huge battle, (i'm trying not to give away big spoilers, but im pretty sure the point is moot anyways here, but i think you know the one i mean) to add extra "oomph" to his attacks on top of his increased strength
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I specifically say at the beginning of this thread that there will be spoilers. If someone has continued on after I warned them, it's their bad. I avoided things with spoilers even though I wanted to know so very bad; others would learn well to do the same unless they really want to know.
I can't remember if he specifically used his weight in the fight with the Koloss, but he did become an "anchor" to hold the gate shut when they charged(Actually where I got the term.). But he absolutely did use his weight against the Kandra Fifths in combat once he was let out of his cage in MB3.
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yeah, but i always feel better if i put as little spoilers as possible, even in a thread that has to have spoilers. Ironically, I enjoy reading spoilers before i get to them when i read books, i dunno why, but I know others hate it with a passion.
Yeah, I remembered when he made himself a literal human anchor, but I could have sworn he used it like i previously stated against the Koloss. I could also be wrong, though :P
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My books are in a room with a sleeping person, I'll check on it as soon as possible.
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I understand it for the mist-filled world but the world in which these new names are going to be created is going to be mist-free(At least gaseous-body-of-Preservation-mist-free). I don't know...
I don't feel like going to the effort of digging up the post right now, but I remember Brandon mentioning in the Q&A thread that there would still be mists - two types of them, in fact - and that it would be easier for Sazed to do things in areas covered by them.
Regardless, I don't see how the presence or absence of Mist has any bearing on the name "Tineye".
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Sazed also used his weight in his fight with Marsh at the end of WoA. I don't have my book to be sure, but I'm pretty sure he dove through the air, and Marsh threw something at him, and Sazed put all his weight in the metalmind and began to float....or something.
And I personally also like the term "featherweight." I think it fits, since it gets both aspects across, whereas Anchor really only gets one....I like Anchor, but...Featherweight's just a little better.
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Eerongal:
Sazed mentions, only in passing, that he used his ironmind it shove Koloss when they needed to be shoved. So he does indeed use his ironmind in his fight against them, but most of it is used when he closes and holds Steel Gate against them.
douglas:
I was making specific reference to the reason that Tineyes could see through the mists when, in reality, they shouldn't have been able to. It was because the mists of the time were the Body of Preservation in gaseous form.
As for the mists themselves, this seems to be the only mention of 500 years from MB3 mists:
Hi, new here, registered just so I could ask some questions:
2) When the Mists come back, will they continue Snapping people?
2) No. The mists will revert back to their more neutral state.
For me, this says, 'It'll be like before the death of the Lord Ruler.' So, nightly fog.
little_wilson:
Actually, the opposite is true. I just finished re-reading the fight between Marsh and Sazed and what Sazed did, every time he tapped his ironmind, was increase his weight and screw up Marsh's pulls and pushes. He even used his weight to drag Marsh to him and smash his face with a lamp(And all that stored weight). He never stored any weight during that combat. Either way, I recommend reading it again, it's really good. 8)
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I went and found the post I was thinking of. Note point 2:
1. The metal chunk that Elend ate is intended to be something of a mystery. Much like atium, actually. Suffice it to say that Atium isn't, and never was, what people thought it was.
I intended Allomancy to be much like a real science. People investigate and put things into boxes, trying to describe and understand the world around them. That doesn't mean they always get things right, however.
Let me say this, as I don't want to spoil too much. If that metal Elend ate were fused into specific alloys with certain metals, it could have instead created Mistings of each of the different Allomantic powers. Atium's abilities are not entirely explored yet either.
2. Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy all work as they once did. However, now they are more directly affected by the presence or absence of the mists, which will slowly return to the world but not be of the extent they once were. (The mists are now an extent of Sazed's power, and where they roam, he is better able to influence things. There will also be two kinds of mists.) Note that in the future, Feruchemy powers will start to fracture and split, creating Feruchemical "Mistings."
Yes, this means that in the future series, it will be possible for a person to have one Allomantic power and one Feruchemical power. It will create for some very interesting mixing of powers.
3. The Terris prophesies were created by Preservation before he attempted his imprisonment. He knew that he wouldn't be able to do much for the world after he did what he did, and he foresaw a LOT of what was to come.
4. Way before Alendi's time. Hence the need for the prophesies. But Ruin managed to corrupt them.
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Well, either way, it was made rather clear in the books themselves that Tineyes could see into the mists the higher they flared their metal because it was gaseous Preservation and that Sazed couldn't penetrate the mists like Tineyes could because it was just his normal human vision multiplied several times.
I mentioned it because of the obviousness of the connection between Feruchemy and Allomancy concerning pewter and tin and how I have Pewterarm and Pewtermind as 'Thug' and 'Brute' respectively because of their connection, but I don't want to do the same with tin. I found a viable reason for my hypocrisy. :P
I still don't know...
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:o Another Mist?!?!?!
(Don't know how I missed that my first time through that thread. ha ha.)
I wonder what it does.
>>
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I was wondering both of those very same things! :-[
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Well, there are two mists in Mistborn Prime. It could be like that.
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I guess I didn't read enough of Mistborn PRIME.
Did it mention what the two types of mists do? I wonder if, in the next series, the Sazed-mists are going to enhance Feruchemical and Allomantic powers...
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The first type of mist is the normal, white mist that we are all used to. This mist is of Preservation. The second type of mist is the black mist of Ruin. The black mist appears once in MB2 and a few times in MB3 when Ruin appeared.
The time where the black smoke appeared in MB2 was in the Chamber of Ascension after Vin lets go of the power.
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Perhaps Ruin didn't lose all of himself in the fight when Sazed took over the power. >>
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No, of course not. Neither Ruin's nor Preservation's power "deplete". The small fragment of power of Preservation at the Well of Ascension was tiny, but it didn't go away, it was replenished. Sazed, however, has essentially all of the power from both Ruin and Preservation, power which he says does not run out.
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No, of course not. Neither Ruin's nor Preservation's power "deplete". The small fragment of power of Preservation at the Well of Ascension was tiny, but it didn't go away, it was replenished. Sazed, however, has essentially all of the power from both Ruin and Preservation, power which he says does not run out.
Well then where would the other mist come from?
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Well then where would the other mist come from?
Ruin's power, no longer contained by Preservation's trap but now controlled by Sazed.
I would guess that in the normal mists Sazed will have an easier time using Preservation's power and in the new kind of mist he will have an easier time using Ruin's power.
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Well then where would the other mist come from?
Ruin's power, no longer contained by Preservation's trap but now controlled by Sazed.
I would guess that in the normal mists Sazed will have an easier time using Preservation's power and in the new kind of mist he will have an easier time using Ruin's power.
That's a very logical assumption.
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I still vote it smells fishy. >>
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Second
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I mean, IMO the way it was worded means that Sazed has his power and used the mist to help influence. His power = both Ruin and Preservation. Now there is another mist. . . .
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Ruin and Preservation are still two distinct powers, regardless of the fact that they happen to be controlled by the same mind now. Each has its own mist, and Sazed's ascension doesn't change that. I just reread the ending of HoA, including the part where Sazed takes up the powers, and the wording there is quite explicit that the forces of Ruin and Preservation remain separate even under his control.
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Yes. The two forces are 1. Preservation, and 2. Ruin. Strictly Ockham's Razor here (which says the simplest solution is usually right), if there are two forces, and one of said forces (Preservation) was the normal mists you saw in the Final Empire, then... the "other" mist is simply the second force. Nothing mysterious or fishy there.
And, just as douglas said, Sazed is keeping the two forces distinct.
Also, you can see that directly before Sazed takes the two powers, Vin's body (of Preservation) emits a white gas like the mist, whereas Ati's (if you aren't familiar with the name Ati, that is simply Ruin's real name) emits a black smoke. There's your two mists for you.
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i like anchor it sounds cooler than featherweight
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Yes. The two forces are 1. Preservation, and 2. Ruin. Strictly Ockham's Razor here (which says the simplest solution is usually right), if there are two forces, and one of said forces (Preservation) was the normal mists you saw in the Final Empire, then... the "other" mist is simply the second force. Nothing mysterious or fishy there.
And, just as douglas said, Sazed is keeping the two forces distinct.
Also, you can see that directly before Sazed takes the two powers, Vin's body (of Preservation) emits a white gas like the mist, whereas Ati's (if you aren't familiar with the name Ati, that is simply Ruin's real name) emits a black smoke. There's your two mists for you.
If you want to be precise, Ockham's "Razor" is a "principle of economy." Unnecessary assumptions are to be removed, leaving only the first sufficient cause or explanation.
So all the principle of economy says is that there's no need to create a second entity to control the second mist; Sazed is sufficiently powerful to control both mists at once. It does not say what the second mist is composed of. Logical reasoning of a different sort, however, leads us to assume that the second mist is probably Ruin's power.
I think it likely that Tineyes will be unable to pierce black mist - it'll probably thicken in their view.
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I doubt it thickens the view or else inquisters would have had problems using hermualgy to penetrate the normal mist...
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That depends on whether stolen tin-burning counts as hemalurgy or allomancy. But I guess you're right - it's probably hemalurgy since it repels Preservation-mist.
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I had a thought about the feruchemical application of Cerrobend (or are we calling it Not!Cerrobend?). Perhaps the Feruchemical Misting (we really need a one-word term for that by the way) could store their ability to see the present and thus be stuck seeing the past of their location (kinda like Allomantic gold-vision). When the time comes to tap it, they get to see into the future for a while. It would be one of those like Iron where storing into it is as useful as tapping.
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It's official name is now Bendalloy.
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I hate that name... stupid copyright laws!
I don't think that there will be any Temporal Feruchemical powers; that seems like it would be out of place. I also don't think that there will be any metal that allows Feruchemical stores to be shared or transferred or other such things that I read in another thread.
I do, however, have a speculation for one of the metals... now I just need a name:
Aluminium : (Name here) - Stores Pain
What do you think?
On the general names, I was thinking that there could be:
Burner - Allomantic Mistings.
Tapper - Feruchemical Mistings.
Misting - Someone that can burn one metal and store in a different one.
(Metal name) Misting - Someone that can burn one metal and store in the same metal.
Full (Metal name) Misting - Someone that can burn one metal and store in all of them.
I like those and they make sense... I like them enough to modify the first post again to add them and ask for suggestions for different ones that may be better.
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It's official name is now Bendalloy.
I require a source citation! If you have one then I'll update the Wikipedia page.
I figured I'd ask before I did it, just to cover my ass.
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The only source I have is my eyes unfortunately. I saw the updated version of the Allomancy poster at the Warbreaker release party and noted what metal replaced Cerrobend.
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It's official name is now Bendalloy.
I require a source citation! If you have one then I'll update the Wikipedia page.
I figured I'd ask before I did it, just to cover my ass.
My source is Zas's mouth :P
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I have a picture on my phone. It is Bendalloy. It slowly pushes time in a bubble around the Allomancer causing it to move more quickly.
If it's a MUST I'll email the picture to you.
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No need, I'll just point a reference to the first post by Zas678 on the Wiki
Thank you for your confirmations... as much as I wanted them to not be true. :(
Any clue of when the rest of us(i.e. - Those of us not regularly interacting with Mr. Sanderson personally.) will see the revised poster?
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I think he was saying they'll be going on sale this fall or winterish time. Something like that. Peter will probably know more about it than me though.
Ha ha. I really want one of the $50 ones though rather than the $18 ones they will be making.
NOTE: Those prices are just flighty memories and aren't necessarily accurate.
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Any word on the Feruchemy or Hemalurgy posters?
Maybe a sneak peek at what the other metals do...? :D
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If I remember right, he mentioned one of the Feruchemal metals storing emotion, like was suggested once or twice before for Allomancy.
For example, Sazed could store sadness, making him happier, than take it out when he was in mourning.
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I hate that name... stupid copyright laws!
I don't think that there will be any Temporal Feruchemical powers; that seems like it would be out of place. I also don't think that there will be any metal that allows Feruchemical stores to be shared or transferred or other such things that I read in another thread.
I do, however, have a speculation for one of the metals... now I just need a name:
Aluminium : (Name here) - Stores Pain
How did you come up with that? and what use would that be?
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Don't we have at least one temporal feruchemical power already? Atium can be used to store age, and even though atium isn't one of the "true" or "core" metals, it is true to form in affecting time, just like it should.
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Zaz678:
I had a feeling that he was going to go in that direction. I like it... Storing Happiness == Heartless? :D
echigo109:
The Temporal metals. Cadmium and Bendalloy don't move an Allomancer slower or faster through time, they manipulate time in a bubble around them. Gold and Electrum don't allow an Allomancer to select a past or future to live in, it just shows them possibilities. A Feruchemical Temporal power would mean that the Feruchemist would have to store and tap time itself and would be moving through it whichever way. Unless time is a property of people and not an intrinsic property of space-time then it would take some very good story elements to justify Temporal Feruchemical abilities. I don't put it past Mr. Sanderson to come up with something, but, to me, it would be a stretch.
On the second question... I'm not sure if you're talking about Aluminium storing pain or a metal that allows Feruchemical stores to be used by people other that the person who made them.
A metal that allowed other Feruchemists to access stores that were not their own doesn't make sense in the same way that Temporal Feruchemical metals don't either. I could see a technology that could act as a pass through, manipulating it's own Feruchemical charge until it matched the one in the metal and then pulling the charge into it and converting the frequency(Or however the charge works) into the person's that has the metalmind. That would be cool.
Aluminium storing pain is an awesome idea, how is it not? Hell, if there were some way to exchange metalminds with others, you could trick someone into thinking that the metal was a different one and make them tap your pain. If not, then it'd be a mind that you store in and never tap, still really useful.
happyman:
Aging is a biological function not the state of your position on the timeline.
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happyman:
Aging is a biological function not the state of your position on the timeline.
The distinction being? Time causes biological age; the two are correlated. Feruchemists can store biological age, even if they need atium to do it. It gives them a window, no matter how imperfect, into both the future and the past. It makes no explicit predictions, but it could at least give them some notion of how long they are likely to live. Frankly, it is the perfect feruchemical temporal power---something completely internal, something temporal and yet non-paradoxical.
I would say that temporal feruchemical powers are eminently plausible. We've already got one. Maybe the other powers can stretch or bend internal time in other ways as well.
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Time does NOT cause age, our own biology does. Time's passage is a side effect of us being three dimensional and is just something that we perceive happening as we pass through the fourth dimension. (It's very quantum physics.)
Time has no relation to age, at all. Age is purely biological.
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Time does NOT cause age, our own biology does. Time's passage is a side effect of us being three dimensional and is just something that we perceive happening as we pass through the fourth dimension. (It's very quantum physics.)
Time has no relation to age, at all. Age is purely biological.
I still fail to see a meaningful distinction. We experience time by (among other things) aging. It is part of our biology, true. The part that is associated with the passage of time (local time, true). It is true that we, perhaps, do not have to experience time by aging. Fantasy and science fiction are full of speculations along those lines. However, in Mistborn I think we can safely say that all known feruchemists experience time by aging. Thus feruchemically storing time is functionally equivalent to storing aging in the Mistborn world, whether you like it or not, and no amount of philosophical claptrap will change this basic fact.
And don't try to snow me with quantum physics. I'm going to defend my Ph.D. dissertation on the effects of classical chaos on quantum mechanical systems in less than two weeks. I have no respect for people who try to separate the concept of time from the effects we can see in the physical world. It's pure nonsense to consider time apart from how we experience it, simply because we have no other option.
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The discussion is mostly irrelevant. They called the Temporal Metals. Both Feruchemy and Hemalurgy must have powers for all sixteen metals, its illogical to think that there would be holes in the two arts.
And don't try to snow me with quantum physics. I'm going to defend my Ph.D. dissertation on the effects of classical chaos on quantum mechanical systems in less than two weeks. I have no respect for people who try to separate the concept of time from the effects we can see in the physical world. It's pure nonsense to consider time apart from how we experience it, simply because we have no other option.
Awesome! Think you could give me a copy to peruse? As a physics undergrad, that stuff interests me a ton, even though I may not understand all the math until next year when I take Quantum.
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The discussion is mostly irrelevant. They called the Temporal Metals. Both Feruchemy and Hemalurgy must have powers for all sixteen metals, its illogical to think that there would be holes in the two arts.
And don't try to snow me with quantum physics. I'm going to defend my Ph.D. dissertation on the effects of classical chaos on quantum mechanical systems in less than two weeks. I have no respect for people who try to separate the concept of time from the effects we can see in the physical world. It's pure nonsense to consider time apart from how we experience it, simply because we have no other option.
Awesome! Think you could give me a copy to peruse? As a physics undergrad, that stuff interests me a ton, even though I may not understand all the math until next year when I take Quantum.
How would I send it to you? I've only used the system here for posting and I honestly don't know how to do more.
Also, I must warn you that if you haven't taken undergrad quantum, it's going to be a bit steep, to say the least. I start with the assumption that the reader is familiar with basic graduate level quantum mechanics and work my way up from there. It relies extremely heavily on linear algebra, group theory, distributions of matrices, integral operators and other concepts from higher mathematics. If you haven't taken a class on these, many of the technical tools will be difficult.
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Before I respond to others I'd like to make an idea I had known.
I was looking over the Allomancy/Feruchemy/Hemalurgy chart in the back of HoA and that grouping for Feruchemy, while not as obvious as Allomancy, finally jumped out at me.
With the mention of storing emotion from Zas678, it occurred to me that the Enhancement Metals are going to store emotion or emotion-related attributes.
Here's my thinking:
The Physical Metals Store: Strength, Senses, Speed, and Weight -- Loosely 'physical' stuff
The Mental Metals Store: Warmth, Memories, Wakefulness, and Mental Speed -- Loosely 'internal' stuff
The Temporal Metal Stores: Health(I await the others, they will be interesting)
The Enhancement Metals Store: [Emotion/Emotion-related whatnots]
In this light, it makes sense(With the emotional storage information) for the Feruchemical Metals to be labeled similarly to the Allomantic ones, but I can't come up with good names, I had a few but they melted as I typed and now completely escape me. As always; suggestions!?
Time does NOT cause age, our own biology does. Time's passage is a side effect of us being three dimensional and is just something that we perceive happening as we pass through the fourth dimension. (It's very quantum physics.)
Time has no relation to age, at all. Age is purely biological.
I still fail to see a meaningful distinction. We experience time by (among other things) aging. It is part of our biology, true. The part that is associated with the passage of time (local time, true). It is true that we, perhaps, do not have to experience time by aging. Fantasy and science fiction are full of speculations along those lines. However, in Mistborn I think we can safely say that all known feruchemists experience time by aging. Thus feruchemically storing time is functionally equivalent to storing aging in the Mistborn world, whether you like it or not, and no amount of philosophical claptrap will change this basic fact.
And don't try to snow me with quantum physics. I'm going to defend my Ph.D. dissertation on the effects of classical chaos on quantum mechanical systems in less than two weeks. I have no respect for people who try to separate the concept of time from the effects we can see in the physical world. It's pure nonsense to consider time apart from how we experience it, simply because we have no other option.
I had a great response written for you... then I closed Firefox and forgot to post it. I wanted to make it a little less hostile before I posted it, but that point is moot now.
I'll direct you to the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation
I age -> Time passes -> I age because time passes == Bad logic
Televisions are made of atoms -> I'm made of atoms -> I am a television == The same, bad logic
A point I do want to make that was in my lost post: If Atium does(By some stretch of logic) store time for aging, then it'll be the ONLY Temporal metal because if there are others, then there would have to be different 'flavors' of time.
I know you're not a biologist, but there is no connection between time's passage and our aging just because they occur in parallel.
Note: I wasn't trying to snow you, I was trying to simplify the concept because I was not aware that everyone reading and posting here were quantum physicists.
The discussion is mostly irrelevant. They called the Temporal Metals. Both Feruchemy and Hemalurgy must have powers for all sixteen metals, its illogical to think that there would be holes in the two arts.
I do agree that it is irrelevant, mostly; especially considering that the thread title is, 'On Feruchemical 'Mistings'' and not, 'The likelihood of the Temporal metals having temporal effects in Feruchemy'
While that is true, there is no evidence(So far) that those groupings(Physical, Mental, Temporal, and Enhancement) will apply to the other Metallic Arts. Everyone seems to want to apply those across the board. The only completely consistent metal is Tin. Feruchemical uses for metals obviously follow a grouping "rule", but the only Temporal metal that we know for sure is Gold and it stores health and that's definitely not time. And if it is, then we have the 'Flavors of Time' problem which makes even less sense unless Mr. Sanderson wants to make the Shards universe have more than one dimension of time, which would be interesting.
Atium is a god metal, the power of the god Ruin percolated through stone and crystal in the Pits of Hathsin, if it stores time then I'm alright with that, but any other metal is just that, metal.
Time is not attached to biology, if anything, it's the other way around, but there's no evidence of it.
Correlation does not imply causation.
Also:
I'm going to defend my Ph.D. dissertation on the effects of classical chaos on quantum mechanical systems in less than two weeks.
Best of luck.
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I had a great response written for you... then I closed Firefox and forgot to post it. I wanted to make it a little less hostile before I posted it, but that point is moot now.
I'll direct you to the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation
I age -> Time passes -> I age because time passes == Bad logic
Televisions are made of atoms -> I'm made of atoms -> I am a television == The same, bad logic
A point I do want to make that was in my lost post: If Atium does(By some stretch of logic) store time for aging, then it'll be the ONLY Temporal metal because if there are others, then there would have to be different 'flavors' of time.
I know you're not a biologist, but there is no connection between time's passage and our aging just because they occur in parallel.
Maybe I need to make my argument clearer.
Let's say for the sake of argument that the feruchemical attribute for atium stores the effects of time. That is, just like atium allows an Allomancer to see through time, atium allows a Feruchemist to store the effects of time. Combine this with the fact that all feruchemists age naturally (I have seen no reason to think otherwise), and we see that atium would thus logically store the effect of aging. The "Time does not cause aging" argument is then moot. If we did have a feruchemist who did not age for whatever reason (too much Breath, maybe? Interacting magic systems are fun.), presumably atium would become useless to him, under this theory.
This theory is strongly supported by Sazed's description of how atium works. He says that to be younger for one year, you would have to spend one year older. What is stored in atium is not the aging itself, but rather the time (or perhaps the internal effects of time), which is coincidentally related to aging. In this case, it would be natural aging baring unforseen events.
Gold would then store healing by storing the natural effects of the bodies ability to heal itself. Again, storing the effects of time, but now focused on the bodies temporal effects under abnormal conditions.
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I had a great response written for you... then I closed Firefox and forgot to post it. I wanted to make it a little less hostile before I posted it, but that point is moot now.
I'll direct you to the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation
I age -> Time passes -> I age because time passes == Bad logic
Televisions are made of atoms -> I'm made of atoms -> I am a television == The same, bad logic
A point I do want to make that was in my lost post: If Atium does(By some stretch of logic) store time for aging, then it'll be the ONLY Temporal metal because if there are others, then there would have to be different 'flavors' of time.
I know you're not a biologist, but there is no connection between time's passage and our aging just because they occur in parallel.
Maybe I need to make my argument clearer.
Let's say for the sake of argument that the feruchemical attribute for atium stores the effects of time. That is, just like atium allows an Allomancer to see through time, atium allows a Feruchemist to store the effects of time. Combine this with the fact that all feruchemists age naturally (I have seen no reason to think otherwise), and we see that atium would thus logically store the effect of aging. The "Time does not cause aging" argument is then moot. If we did have a feruchemist who did not age for whatever reason (too much Breath, maybe? Interacting magic systems are fun.), presumably atium would become useless to him, under this theory.
This theory is strongly supported by Sazed's description of how atium works. He says that to be younger for one year, you would have to spend one year older. What is stored in atium is not the aging itself, but rather the time (or perhaps the internal effects of time), which is coincidentally related to aging. In this case, it would be natural aging baring unforseen events.
Gold would then store healing by storing the natural effects of the bodies ability to heal itself. Again, storing the effects of time, but now focused on the bodies temporal effects under abnormal conditions.
I hate to continue to disagree, it's starting to sound to me like I'm disagreeing just to do so.
Feruchemy facilitates the storage of the attributes of a Feruchemist, allowing that same Feruchemist to recall and utilize them at his leisure.
The entire argument for Atium, or any other metal, storing time hinges on the single premise that time is an attribute of a Feruchemist.
I cannot see that making any sense, ever.
Spacetime is independent of us, therefore, time cannot be an attribute of anything other than space and vice versa.
I fully understand where you're coming from, it's completely rational, but totally nonsensical, to me.
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I had a great response written for you... then I closed Firefox and forgot to post it. I wanted to make it a little less hostile before I posted it, but that point is moot now.
I'll direct you to the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation
I age -> Time passes -> I age because time passes == Bad logic
Televisions are made of atoms -> I'm made of atoms -> I am a television == The same, bad logic
A point I do want to make that was in my lost post: If Atium does(By some stretch of logic) store time for aging, then it'll be the ONLY Temporal metal because if there are others, then there would have to be different 'flavors' of time.
I know you're not a biologist, but there is no connection between time's passage and our aging just because they occur in parallel.
Maybe I need to make my argument clearer.
Let's say for the sake of argument that the feruchemical attribute for atium stores the effects of time. That is, just like atium allows an Allomancer to see through time, atium allows a Feruchemist to store the effects of time. Combine this with the fact that all feruchemists age naturally (I have seen no reason to think otherwise), and we see that atium would thus logically store the effect of aging. The "Time does not cause aging" argument is then moot. If we did have a feruchemist who did not age for whatever reason (too much Breath, maybe? Interacting magic systems are fun.), presumably atium would become useless to him, under this theory.
This theory is strongly supported by Sazed's description of how atium works. He says that to be younger for one year, you would have to spend one year older. What is stored in atium is not the aging itself, but rather the time (or perhaps the internal effects of time), which is coincidentally related to aging. In this case, it would be natural aging baring unforseen events.
Gold would then store healing by storing the natural effects of the bodies ability to heal itself. Again, storing the effects of time, but now focused on the bodies temporal effects under abnormal conditions.
I hate to continue to disagree, it's starting to sound to me like I'm disagreeing just to do so.
Feruchemy facilitates the storage of the attributes of a Feruchemist, allowing that same Feruchemist to recall and utilize them at his leisure.
The entire argument for Atium, or any other metal, storing time hinges on the single premise that time is an attribute of a Feruchemist.
I cannot see that making any sense, ever.
Spacetime is independent of us, therefore, time cannot be an attribute of anything other than space and vice versa.
I fully understand where you're coming from, it's completely rational, but totally nonsensical, to me.
Are you saying it's a deep philosophical objection because you believe in a fundamentally block universe? Why tie your imagination to that loadstone? It's just a mathematical model, and hardly the only way to view time.
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When a Feruchemist stores weight, what he is really storing is not the weight itself, but something about how gravity interacts with your body. Yes, I know I explained that horribly, but my point is, Feruchemy sometimes stretches these attributes.
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When a Feruchemist stores weight, what he is really storing is not the weight itself, but something about how gravity interacts with your body. Yes, I know I explained that horribly, but my point is, Feruchemy sometimes stretches these attributes.
I'll answer this one first because it will help in answering happyman and because I was actually going to mention this in my last response but it felt tacked one. I'm glad you mentioned it. ;)
I think that, rather than storing gravity(Which had been my idea as well and always irked me) I think that it would make more sense that Storing(I think I'm going to capitalize Store and Burn when talking about Feruchemy and Allomancy, respectively. Less confusing) in Iron actually stores the Feruchemist's Higgs Bosons rather than gravity itself. I wouldn't put it past Mr. Sanderson to have thought it out that far.
For those of us who have not had an education in physics I'll give you a simple explanation of what the Higgs Boson is: The Higgs Boson is the particle that gives all the other particles their mass. It sounds odd, but it's currently the best idea we've got for why everything has mass. The more massive an object is, the more gravity it generates/space it distorts, and the more "weight" it has. It would make sense that Storing 'weight' is actually Storing 'mass' in the form of Higgs Bosons'.
I have a sneaking suspicion that that is how Mr. Sanderson worked it out and he just never bothered to elaborate because he's never needed to.
For more reading on the Standard Model: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model
If that's too much, here's the easier one: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model (That's the one I sent my mom.) ;D
Are you saying it's a deep philosophical objection because you believe in a fundamentally block universe? Why tie your imagination to that loadstone? It's just a mathematical model, and hardly the only way to view time.
It isn't a philosophical objection, it's a reasonable, rational objection. Under NO circumstance is time an attribute of anything other than itself and space.
Time isn't mediated by a force boson, nor is it ANY type of force/particle. Time does not depend on matter, it's an intrinsic property of our universe and has no connection to matter at all, let alone, biological life.
I understand that there are many ways to view time(Including the multiple time dimensions theories[Hypothesis'?] and whatnot), but in none of the ideas that aren't completely off the wall speculation, is time an attribute of matter.
As for my imagination, more often than not, it's tied to reality and I rather like it that way. If something is completely magical, though, I can go with it just fine.
Also, so you know, it's not my intent to be or appear hostile but I have some kind of drive for others to understand my position as it is, not the way they think it is. It gets me into arguments when I wont let something go because there is a misunderstanding, however small. Might have to do with my obsessive compulsiveness.
I always feel like there's more to say.
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Hmm... It has been made abundantly clear in my mind that atium stores the effect of age, not time, and when a Feruchemist stores 'weight' he is actually storing 'mass,' because his magic isn't a type which alters the physical forces of the universe, only his own body. The Forces acting upon him remain constant, his body changes in structure at the most fundamental level.
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It isn't a philosophical objection, it's a reasonable, rational objection. Under NO circumstance is time an attribute of anything other than itself and space.
This is a philosophical statement, and a statement of pure, undiluted faith in our current scientific models as we render them mathematically. You have merely confirmed my original supposition; the core issue for you is a philosophical objection, and one that you apparently hold onto very strongly.
Time isn't mediated by a force boson, nor is it ANY type of force/particle. Time does not depend on matter, it's an intrinsic property of our universe and has no connection to matter at all, let alone, biological life.
If you were in a physics course, I would flunk you for this statement. Time is dependent on matter; the presence of too much matter bends time just like it bends space. In fact, the claimed effects of the temporal metals is to bend time in ways similar to speculative bending that is possible in general relativity in the presence of strange configurations of large masses.
In addition, you are taking our models for time far too seriously if you intend to make that statement an absolute.
I intended my current signature to be a joke. In this discussion, however, I recommend that you try to understand what "Nature hates being reified" actually means, because you are reifing it all over the place, and then protesting when the rest of us don't get what the problem is.
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Perhaps this conversation is getting a bit off topic? We're discussing powers of Feruchemy, not physics. Physics may have some minor relevance, but we are focusing far too much on that end of things.
Since the Temporal metals appear to be a sticky point, why don't we change directions and discuss the Enhancement metals? If they deal with emotions, how would they work? Would there be four different emotions to store and tap, or would it operate under a different system?
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Some more suggestions for feruchemical Misting titles:
Pewter - Strongarm, Beast, Hulk,
Steel - Speedster, Flash, Racer,
Iron - Ballast (Anchor is really fantastic though)
Tin - Scout
Bronze - Sentry, Sentinel
Copper - Sage, Librarian, (or hell, why not Keeper?)
Gold - Regenerator, Rehealer, Troll,
Zinc - Genius, Spark, Eureka
Brass - Pyre, Pyro, Vesuvian
Atium - ... I got nuthin'
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I like Pewter Feruchemists being Strongarms. It has a nice relation to Pewterarms/Thugs.
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I liked troll. To bad the concept probably would not fit into the world very well. :D
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An Atium feruchemical misting could be a Shapeshifter. Not that we're likely to be able to see one- although perhaps there is some overlap in the ability to use Atium and either gold or electrum.
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I agree with the Shapeshifter idea for now, since I haven't seen anything better.
Going back to the time/quantum physics discussion, I will just say this - as I see it, atium stores your age ONLY. Not the time, but the physical age of your body. Why? Because if it would really store the effects of time, we would get into stuff far more complicated than we saw in any of Brandon's books.
Let's just say, a feruchemist X stores his "time" in atium for a week. After he stops, somebody comes and slices him with a sword. X grabs his atium and takes his "time" back. Would the wound disappear? Would it appear again as he releases his atium?
And what would happen, if, instead, X would get stabbed while he was storing his "time"? Would that mean that the wound would disappear as he stops storing the "time", and then appear every time as he taps his atium?
And another thing. As we know, one of the most important things about feruchemy is the ability to choose, how much of an attribute to take from the metal. If atium stores age, it's logical and simple that you can look a little younger for a week, or look like a child for an hour.
But if it's really time, it wouldn't work like that, since it would just repeat what was happening to the feruchemist while he was storing the time in the atium. It would then happen faster or slower, but wouldn't in any way grand the ability to look much younger for a time.
And more. If X would store his "time", what exactly would be happening to him while he is storing it? Since the time itself would have less impact on him (as he is storing it in atium) it would mean that while he is storing it, he ages slower.
And this is not happening. We know that from Brandon's books that it's not working this way. So, I think that it stores only the physical age, not the time itself.
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This is something that has been bugging me for a while, so I wanted to let you guys take a stab at it. What happens when a Copper misting (feruchemist and allomancer) burned some copper with a memory stored in it? It seems to me like something funny would happen, because unlike other metals, which store attributes (strength, speed, health, etc.) that can be easily multiplied and magnified, copper stores something more specific. Mental information. How do you "enhance" a stored memory?
Oh, and by the way, Anchor=Awesome! ;D
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We should come up with a sweet name for allomantic-furchemists.
Allomists? Furchemantic? Fallochemantists? Chemist?
What do you guys think?
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One thing to keep in mind when coming up with these names is that the Allomantic misting names are mostly slang, which is often bases around wordplay and popular concepts. So don't try to make them too cerebral or specific. It's not about what it actually does as much as it is about what people think it does.
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One thing to keep in mind when coming up with these names is that the Allomantic misting names are mostly slang, which is often bases around wordplay and popular concepts. So don't try to make them too cerebral or specific. It's not about what it actually does as much as it is about what people think it does.
Yeah, but the people in the next possible Mistborn will have much more knowledge about "what it does", because Mistings will be much more common. And don't forget about the scientific researches that will be already done on the topic - it would be an urban world after all.
So that takes away all the mistic aura around feruchemy and allomancy.
Of course that people will use slang names, but we should think of scientific names as well.
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We should come up with a sweet name for allomantic-furchemists.
Allomists? Furchemantic? Fallochemantists? Chemist?
What do you guys think?
Allochemist, perhaps. :)
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I am an allochemist, and I practice allochemy! :D Sounds a lot like alchemy. I kind of like the terminology that was suggested at the beginning of this thread
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On the iron stores Higgs Bosons theory, in practice it would not work because Sazed clearly describes himself falling more slowly when he stores his weight, therefore it must be distorting/storing the effects of gravity as a more massive Sazed would fall at the same rate as a less massive Sazed.
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On the iron stores Higgs Bosons theory, in practice it would not work because Sazed clearly describes himself falling more slowly when he stores his weight, therefore it must be distorting/storing the effects of gravity as a more massive Sazed would fall at the same rate as a less massive Sazed.
That would be true...if the world had no atmosphere. To prove this to yourself, drop a cannonball (high mass) and a balloon (same shape/size, low mass) side by side, and see how fast they fall. Also, in Sazed and Marsh's fight, he also stopped himself from being pushed backwards using stored mass, which gravity could not do.
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It's been stated (by Peter I think, correct me if I'm wrong here) in another discussion on the time-manipulating metals that that universe is not our universe. Which means that while their physics may look similar to ours, they may still be fundamentally different. This may be a cheap answer, but in the end it means we shouldn't try to analyze the deeper physical effects too much - it'll work however Brandon wants it to work. And the simple reason is: "That's how things work there..."