Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: little wilson on February 04, 2009, 07:22:55 AM
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Okay, I did a search, and it didn't seem like this had been talked about at all. There's the WoT/Mistborn thing, but...this isn't the same. Anyway. I finally finished Elantris and after thinking about it I'm curious which magic system would win if pitted against each other.
Let's say, for some reason the Dakhor monks and the Elantrians teamed up and took on the Mistborn and Feruchemists. For the sake of the poll, let's narrow the fight down to one of each (sidenote: I would've added Hemalurgy, but those two (Allomancy and Feruchemy) together are pretty much the same....kind of). Which side would win?
I'm inclined to think that the Elantris side would win. As much as I love Mistborn's magic system, I just don't see it beating the Dor. And I personally think the weakness is in the mistborn. I think if the feruchemist and the monk fought, it would be pretty fair, assuming the feruchemist has a large store of powers (like speed, strength and weight....healing too, definitely). But the mistborn wouldn't really stand a chance against the Elantrian. The Elantrian would be able to counter anything the mistborn did--either with transporting themselves to a very nearby location, or changing metal to some sort of food, or even using that fire Raoden uses at first, or the Aon Daa Galladon's team uses when they first get to Teod. The feruchemist wouldn't be much better, either. The only way either one would stand a chance against the Elantrian was if they got a lucky strike onto the arms or hands, incapacitating the Elantrian in regards to the Aons.
Other thoughts?
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Well, first of all it's hard to picture a Dakhor monk wanting to cooperate with an Elantrian. Secondly, I think the Elantrian's power is limited by the time it takes to draw Aons. If they were in a hurry, they might make fatal mistakes - and if they didn't hurry, the Mistborn could shoot them with coins before they had a chance to defend themselves. It seems to me AonDor is more useful for leisurely things than fight scenes - although it could perhaps be used to make some interesting weapons, ahead of time.
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Big ditto, Sarah. Timing is everything. Mistborn magic is much more immediate and spur of the moment. The whole thing with having to draw complicated Aons in the air was one of the issues I had with the magic. Mostly because it totally destroys the very idea of a "fast fight". Everything that the Elantrian could do would be separated by extremely long periods of time where he was trying to draw the right Aon. And in that moment, just before the Aon was complete, Vin would kill him.
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They two systems have different advantages and disadvantages, although I have to agree with those who think that Mistborn would be better in a fight.
However, the Elantrians have some advantages simply by being Elantrians. It automatically makes them stronger, faster and tougher than a regular human. It seems, however, that it doesn't make them as much stronger than a Misting burning pewter would. And fighting would be very tricky with Aons. The Aons are definitely more versatile, however, which provides advantages in more general kinds of fights; i.e. it may not be so hot in sword-play, but ambushes could be significantly more deadly.
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Elantrians are very difficult (impossible?) to kill with physical force.
A mistborn's attacks are very physical in nature.
A Fire Aon could decimate a group of mistborn.
I think the Elantrians would win. Yes, it might take them longer to draw the Aons, but they are well designed for ranged combat, while mistborn are melee fighters mainly.
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WriterDan's comment got me thinking....When I imagine a fight like this going down (obviously hypothetically since there's no way an Elantrian and a Dakhor monk are actually going to cooperate...), I think of it as the unspecialized people that we read about in the books. So Vin wouldn't be the mistborn. Nor would Elend. I image it would be someone a little less powerful than Kelsier. The Feruchemist very well could be Sazed. My main thing with the Feruchemist is that he would have to have some large stores of strength, speed, weight, and healing (healing, since the others have different ways to make them stronger in the healing department). The Elantrian wouldn't be Raoden, but it would probably be someone similar. Someone who knows the Aons, and can draw them fairly quickly....And the monk definitely wouldn't be Dilaf.
And as for the AonDor not being for fighting....I kind of disagree. That may not be the main use for it, but it can obviously be used pretty well in fighting, even against a speedy opponent. I'm judging it off the fight on the Teod docks, where the Elantrians took out a good majority of the monks--who it had already been proven are very hard to kill. And that was just with one Aon.
But I do agree that it depends on the kind of fight. An ambush? Or close quarters? In an ambush, I'm pretty sure the ambusher would win, regardless of which side. Close quarters, though, would be a little harder, and this is where I think Elantris would win. Like Loud said, it's hard to kill an Elantrian with physical force. Not impossible, but hard. Same with the monks. You'd have to hit them in just the right spot(s) for it to count. And as much as pewter would help the mistborn, one Fire (Ehe) or Energy (Daa) Aon and it won't matter.
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Honestly, I think the mistborn/Feruchemists would win. I do see the Aon's being a difficult thing to do in a tense, quick combat situation (which, didn't Raoden mess up some Aons during the fight on the docks? I may be misremembering). The main reason I think they would win lies in Feruchemy, as we said they have an ample supply of speed/strength. They could simply make themselves quick enough and strong enough to deal with their opponents quickly (since i'm assuming even ratios of 1:1) and cut the enemies forces in half. Even if this left them mostly drained of both speed and strength, they still wouldn't be USELESS.
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I voted for Mistborn it would really depend on the sitauation. In a stealth or ambush situation the Elantris would have the advantage. However in face to face combat you have to deal with the time taken to draw and the fact that everyone can read exactly what you are doing. Its glowing in the air in front of you. "Hey look he is making a fire ball that goes forward I am going to run to the left." They dont even need atium. They could use it though to read the entire Aon before it was finished though. That would give them even more time to react.
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That's assuming that they know what the Aons mean....If they didn't know, there wouldn't be that advantage.
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one other assumption we have to make for this fight to be at all viable is that the fight would have to take place in arelon. otherwise the elantrians would be severely handicapped. i voted for mistborn anyway though
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the fight would have to take place in arelon.
haha. Of course. Also, we have to assume that the mistborn and feruchemists are able to do their respective special abilities while they're not on Scadriel--which I think is a very realistic assumption (it's also one I think is cool to think about, especially since a couple weeks ago, the mists were out in full force in the evening and night where I live...I thought it would be cool to see people start jumping around using metals and stuff....But alas, that didn't happen.... :P).
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One thing that I think would give the mistborn an advantage would be if they had atium. They wouldn't need to be able to read the Aons; they could see what was going to happen and dodge or counter it. As much as I love Elantris, I'd have to say that the Elantrians would be in big trouble if they didn't catch the mistborn by surprise.
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I got the impression that the stuff that the Aons did came to fast, once the started. So I don't think Atium would really help the mistborn. I could be wrong about that, but...that's just the impression I got in the book. That once the Aon was finished, whatever it did happened FAST.
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To be fair, I would think Atium would HAVE to be left out of the equation. Mainly because ANY fight between X and mistborn could be "Mistborn w/ Atium wins!" unless, of course, that X is something that can counter Atium
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As for Elantrians being nearly impossible to kill, I believe that only held true before Raoden drew the chasm line, when they were all sort of undead. Elantrians under normal conditions can certainly be injured (Raoden in the fight on the docks) or ill (Galladon's father); perhaps they heal faster than ordinary people and they certainly can draw healing Aons, but I don't think that would protect them from death.
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I agree with Sarah. Elantrians can definitely die. If Hrathen hadn't stepped in when he did, I think we would know that....
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I think that the Feruchemist and the Dakhor would be pretty evenly matched, but it depends entirely on how much the Feruchemist has stored up and how strong of a monk the Dakhor is. Sazed with a ton of stored-up strength, health, and speed would be pretty even with Dilaf, I think.
Elantrians have the most versatile power by far. They can do almost anything... However, it does take a few moments. I think the Mistborn would win, since they could dodge almost anything, practically fly, and attack extremely quickly. However, we don't really know the extent of the Elantrians' abilities. We only glimpsed their abilities at the end of Elantris. Maybe Elantrians can fly, dodge, and have prepared AonDor that can be released suddenly in battle. Maybe they could develop swords that active an AonDor like their light plates glowed on touch.
Of course, if the Mistborn had much atium, then there would be no contest.
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I wrote a huge long post, but it got eaten, so here's the synopsis.
Allomancer / Feruchemist Strengths:
- Ability, through Atium or Not-Cerrobend, to know what attacks are coming their way with ample reaction time.
- Disruption of Aons via Steelpushing and Ironpulling, or perhaps even Duralumin Rioting or soothing in a pinch.
- Learn an Aon after one drawing, via Copperminds.
- Physical capabilities of an Elantrian are fairly easy to match.
- Can freely move about large spaces, without worrying about weakening of strength.
Elantrian / Dakhor Strengths:
- Unlimited Power source.
- More versatile arsenal.
- Close-range movement advantages with travel magic. Good for guerrilla style fighting.
- Better healing capabilities.
- Lasting "standalone" magics.
Crazy Random Metallic Arts Questions:
- If an Allomancer/Feruchemist burns an enhancement metal, does the Feruchemical burst get amplified? Does Aluminum create a negative burst of Feruchemical energy? (I think this may have been answered somewhere, actually, but I couldn't find it.)
- Does Aluminum/Chromium work on metals one cannot burn? Would that affect the Feruchemical properties of said metal?
- Would Bronze reveal an Elantrian?
- Does the Dakhor process fragment the host enough to be Hemalurgically controlled via Allomancy?
- If an Iron(?) spike was Hemalurgically imbued from a Dakhor monk / Elantrian, would the spike endow human strength based on the person before they were changed, or after?
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What about ClayShin and Hemalurgy? Do they enter into this at all?
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Well, I think it all depends on a lot of factors.
For example, one Mistborn fighting 1 whatever else wins (assuming he/she has all metals on), just because of the fact that they can burst with duraluminium or flare their metals. One duraluminium/pewter burst and you can kill anyone with enough speed and precision and strength, even cutting Dakhor monks' bones.
On the other hand, Elantrians are better for armies. First line draws protective Aons, second line are healers, in case any of the first line are injured, and third line are the shooters, because they don't have to be in the first line to shoot fire or energy or rocks or whatever they want on their enemies.
Feruchemy and Dakhor wouldn't even enter the fight, because they are melee fighters (unless they went on tossing huge rocks on the enemy, but that would be countered easily by Elantrians).
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In Arelon, there is no other rivaling magic, so an Elantrian's Aons are very powerful, despite the time it takes to draw them. The magic is about how good you are at drawing and how much knowledge you have about Aons.
On Scadrial, Allomancy and Feruchemy are far more about speed. A Mistborn is powerful if he/she learns to use his/her limited powers (limited number of metals) quickly and wisely.
Initially, my mind thinks that a Mistborn would definitely win, due to his/her speed advantage. When I thought about it, however, I realized it's not that simple. A truly skilled and knowledgeable Elantrian, given five or ten seconds to construct an Aon, could do basically anything, assuming he/she was able to stay out of the way for those five/ten seconds. For example, he/she could probably direct a fireball at a person with a modifier so that it would follow the person like a guided missle. He/she could teleport, which would allow him/her to sneak up on the Mistborn somewhat easily. The list of Aons is not necessarily finite, and we definitely don't know all of the things one could do with them. There are probably some ancient, dark, forbidden, very complex, lost-in-time aons that do things like control minds and cause automatic death. It seems to me like, if the Elantrian knows the right Aon and is able to draw it in time, he/she basically automatically wins.
Just thinking about those 'old, dark, forbidden, very complex, lost-in-time aons' makes me want to see an Elantris sequel...
A couple more somewhat notable things:
Presumably, bronze could not be used to detect Elantrians, because the Dor is an entirely seperate magic system than Allomancy and Feruchemy.
An army of Elantrians would have a better chance, but not against an army of Mistborn (if the fight is fair, both sides' numbers will be equal).
Dakhor monks don't have much of an advantage, seeing a they're basically just thugs, but they COULD distract the Mistborn while the Elantrians draw Aons.
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A couple more somewhat notable things:
Presumably, bronze could not be used to detect Elantrians, because the Dor is an entirely seperate magic system than Allomancy and Feruchemy.
An army of Elantrians would have a better chance, but not against an army of Mistborn (if the fight is fair, both sides' numbers will be equal).
Dakhor monks don't have much of an advantage, seeing a they're basically just thugs, but they COULD distract the Mistborn while the Elantrians draw Aons.
Well, regarding that:
1.- I think bronze allows allomancers to detect the power of creation, be it channeled one way or another. She detects Ruin and the power at the WoA, and neither are Allomancy (this is arguable, though, in the case of Preservation, but in the case of Ruin is somewhat more clear).
Why hasn't she detected Feruchemist or Hemalurgist? Well, I'm not sure, but maybe she wasn't familiar with the pulses from them or she did could feel them but didn't know what they were.
So, they would detect active Dor in all its forms (active, not inactive as in Elantrians' bodies or Dakhor monks).
2.- It is clearly stated that some Elantrians are better at drawing Aons than others, and that almost all of them specialized in one or a few fields. So, I'm thinking Elantrians are more or less like Allomancers, only a few excel (= Mistborn) and most of them are good at channeling Dor for a few things (= Mistings).
We've seen few organised conflicts with Allomancers and Elantrians, but it seems that Elantrians would be much versatile and powerful (so you've got 20 Coinshots Pushing metals to us? Well, I've got 3 Elantrians expert in turning metal to bubbles, so...........).
As always, when you confront different styles, the one who gets the battle to develop so that it shows the best of his/her style wins. With plenty of time to prepare (and Dor to channel), Elantrians win. In fast close combat, Mistborn wins.
I have not a very clear idea of how would Awakening magic work in a fight. We've seen it, but it seems to take very difficult Commands and ridiculous amounts of Breaths to work, but that should go in another thread :P
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Hmm... If Seekers and Mistborn could learn to detect any of the powers, then a really clever Mistborn could beat any of them, because he or she could use bronze to perceive any use of any power and get out of the way with a coinpush enhanced leap.
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I've not read these stories, but bronze is an alloy of silver, nickle, copper, tin and what ever else the founder puts in his secret recipe. Seems like a system based on elemental properties found in metals would be thwarted by complicated alloys like bronze or stainless steel. . .
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Yes, only specific alloys (assumedly within a certain tolerance) will work for allomancers—alloys where the percentages are off will make them ill.
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I've not read these stories, but bronze is an alloy of silver, nickle, copper, tin and what ever else the founder puts in his secret recipe. Seems like a system based on elemental properties found in metals would be thwarted by complicated alloys like bronze or stainless steel. . .
Bronze doesn't have to be that complicated though. Besides, Allomancers require exact ratios, as Ook stated.
It wouldn't be hard if everyone knew what to put in it.
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We don't know if all the Aeon's are discovered yet and if Raoden had time to make a game plan I would put money on his strategic thinking above any mistborn he would match up against
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Are we saying that in this (hypothetical) fight, all the Mistborn metals have been discovered? 'Cause if not, that could make a pretty big difference…
I think there are a lot of variables in this 'equation,' and maybe even too many to come up with an accurate answer. How many metals/attributes do the Mistborn/Feruchemists have stored up, is atium allowed…
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I would say Chromium and Nicrosil are in. Cadmium and not-Cerrobend aren't, though--mostly because there're still some 'technicality' questions about how they work, in particular not-Cerrobend. I would also say the God metals are out too.
As for how much metals the Mistborn has stored. I would think a couple vials. Feruchemists would have large stores of strength, speed, weight, and health.
As for skill level of each person.
Monk--not Dilaf. Someone more normal (for the monks....). Dilaf seemed to me to be an anomaly among the monks.
Elantrian--Raoden (or Raoden's skill level). He's new enough that it still takes him some time to draw, but not too much that he'd killed without a doubt in that space of time.
Mistborn--someone around Kelsier's skill level, but not necessarily with his skill with iron/steel.
Feruchemist--could be Sazed. His focus isn't in fighting, but he's shown himself to be a skilled fighter when the time calls for it.
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Kel was one of the strongest mistborn even without the steel/iron he escaped inquisitors several times and even killed one... he wasn't as strong as the early mistborn nor did he have vin's skill but inquistors have about 1.5 times the power as a regular mistborn and he was skilled enough to kill one... he is definately in the top 5%
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I love how we're putting statistical analysis to hypothetical outliers within a fictional universe. x.x ha ha.
I definitely think a Monk could win the fight if he had the proper training.
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It's very true. However, there are some frames of reference to judge by.
For example, Dilaf gives us the information that every one of his monks has the strength of a hundred men. That is the equivalent of fifty-ish Koloss, plus enhanced speed and other miscellaneous abilities. That would make for a very dangerous melee fighter, and the only way I see a Mistborn killing one is with a lot of duralumin and pewter, or some atium. A Feruchemist could probably kill one monk with ease, though, as he tapped all his metalminds to 120 times normal abilities. He would only have a few brief moments, but during that time he could crush a monk with ease.
So if the Feruchemist is going to take down the monk, that only leaves the Allomancer to take on the Elantrian. Without Atium or temporal external metals to work with, any hope for the Mistborn lies in either their greater mobility or ending the fight quickly. Mobility is a key factor, because the Elantrian would remain pinned close to Elantris, whereas the Mistborn could rove freely, perhaps drawing their opponent to a location where Aons have weaker effects. If that was not an option, probably the best bet for the Allomancer would be to burn duralumin, steel, pewter, and zinc/brass all at once, moving towards the enemy at a rapid pace while hopefully disrupting any Aon creation for a few seconds with crushing emotional pressure. If a Mistborn got into close-quarters with an Elantrian, I would have no doubts they could win a one-on-one fight.
Now suppose either the Mistborn or the Feruchemist were to sacrifice themselves, allowing the other to Hemalurgically endow themselves? That would form a Lord Ruler-esque creation, allowing the surviving member to both Allomantically burn and Feruchemically fill one metal. But which metal to choose? A Feruchemist who can burn Steel? A Mistborn with Mental Speed augmentation? They would have to face both a Dakhor monk and an Elantrian alone, so it would have to count. Maybe a Gold-healing Mistborn?
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Doesn't Sazed mention how Feruchemy can only stretch so far without damaging the user because if it does then the monk pwns his ass.
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I think he does that anyway. :D
Quick random question: can women be monks?? (In BS's story; not the real world ( :P ).)
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Quick random question: can women be monks?? (In BS's story; not the real world ( :P ).)
I don't know. As far as I know we haven't seen any. However, judging by Warbreaker, Sanderson seems to think "monk" is a gender-neutral term.
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That depends on the society Brandon has created. Fjorden seems to me more likely to be militantly patriarchal.
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Ookla, I agree that it's likely Fjorden monks were all male. My point was that Sanderson has no difficulty in using the English word "monk" to describe women, so that in itself would be no argument. (Not that anyone was actually making that argument, but I might have been tempted to do so if it weren't for the Warbreaker monks.)
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I've noticed a number of people trying to alter monk into a gender neutral term. I have a feeling both, nuns and monks would be disturbed by this. Maybe I'll wander down the street to the priory and ask. I'd go next door to the convent but they are skittish over there. Seldom see them unless they are speeding away in their white minivan. Heh, imagine 5 nuns in a minivan. It's a riot.
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Renoard, who's doing that other than EUOL? His gender-neutral usage of "monk" bothered me mainly because I hadn't seen that usage elsewhere, so it seemed like a mistake to me. I have no problem with words changing meanings - that's what words do - but until the new meaning becomes common, it seems like a misuse.
And I don't get what's funny about a minivan full of nuns. Do you think they ought to be using horse-drawn carriages? Or a Pope-mobile? Or should they not be leaving their convent at all?
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@ Renoard Imagine 9 midgets in a white mini van living out of the Travel Lodge in Albuquerque its awesome! They are hispanic and no-one in my troop understood what they said because of the speed in which they were speaking, like soccer announcers.
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This Travelodge, it wasn't being run by Glenda the good was it? Come to think of it, Sleepy Bear's cap and gown look a little like the habit of those nuns. . .
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It may be, though i doubt it we were in the hot tub and a couple started having sex in the pool rather discomforting...
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Well that's weird. ;D
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completely ignoring the last five or so (and increasingly off-topic) posts, here's basically what it comes down to:
Whatever it was that dilaf did when he destroyed the aon that acted as raoden's disguise: can he use that power against mistborn/feruchemists? can all monks do that?
if he has some kind of anti-magic that will neutralise the mistborn, then there's no question that the mistborn win, even with atium.
[edit:] actually, thinking about it, the elantrians win given enough preparation.
if it is assumed that the feruchemist is given time to store attributes for the fight, then the elantrian should also be given the preparatory time to apply sheild aons to his clothing, explosive aons to a handful of rocks, light aons to blind a tineye: basically prepare an aresenal of aon-equipped weaponry.
OK, now i want to change my vote. elantrians win.
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The Dakhor could just provide a distraction while the Elantrian drew an Aon to blow the Allomancer away. They then proceed to kill the Feruchemist. Elantrian/Dakhor takes this.
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Definitely. Mistborn and Feruchemists are just flashy. :D
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Someone ought to make a thread where we can compare all of the magic systems one-on-one. That would be interesting.
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And complicated. Very, very complicated.
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Like ClayShin vs. Hemalurgy? Or a Feruchemist vs. a Returned?
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Perhaps too complicated.
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Indeed. Still, it would be cool.
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One problem with it is that we often see the masters of the magic instead of the average person. (especially with Mistborn)
But....
What if we do have the masters? Dilaf, Raoden, A ferchemist that has spent forever training, Suseborn, Vin(mist powered), Marsh, A Clayshan master....
It would be incredible to watch......
On that topic Vin mist-powered probably could beat anyone, except maybe for the God King.
WAIT! I was wrong. Hoid would totally win.
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And what power would he use exactly? ;D
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Confusing people and causing them to spend endless hours in speculation.
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I see. Yeah, Hoid takes this.
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On that topic Vin mist-powered probably could beat anyone, except maybe for the God King.
Demigods have a way of doing that...
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On that topic Vin mist-powered probably could beat anyone, except maybe for the God King.
Him and Ruin. Assuming this is without kamikazeness.
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What about Awakeners?
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What about Awakeners?
I suspect that the Awakeners have a shard associated with them. He/she/it would probably be almost unbeatable as well. Mortal awakeners, I suspect, could be whupped by any of the shards.
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They could probably take elantrians easily.
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The biggest problem is we don't FULLY know the abilities of an Elantrian, because nothing really happened until the end of the book. Plus they like never die because they can heal themselves and heal at a rapid rate anyway.
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Bet you they'd die if you tore them limb from limb ;D
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I think Elantrians would win because the Mistborns, Mistings and Metalminds are all going to run out at one point. I think Elantris all the way.
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Elantrians can do some wicked stuff but skilled elantrians are extinct. Skilled Mistborn are much more common. (Vin, Elend, Kelsier.) Flip-flop that with Fercumists and Dakhor Monks. Elantrians are like Steel Inquistors durability-wise and the Dakhor monks are like mistling Thugs on Steriods. Skilled Mistorn vave killed both Inquistors and Thugs, adding in Feruchemist is overkill. Now think about an Elantrian Mistborn or if the Lord Ruler had been taken by the Shaod before Elantris' fall...
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oooohhh. that would be one powerful Mistborn Elantrian.....thing. Mistrian!!! ;D
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If you get a full scale battle and not some street brawl superior tactics in which Raoden is leading the Elantrians... well the people of Scardiel are kinda screwed.... badly
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The biggest problem is we don't FULLY know the abilities of an Elantrian, because nothing really happened until the end of the book. Plus they like never die because they can heal themselves and heal at a rapid rate anyway.
I agree however having said that i think that a Mistborn and battle trained Furechemist could kill the Elantrian and Dakor monk because i believe the Furechemist would quickly defeat the monk and double team the Elantrian.
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^ I disagree. I think the Dakhor monk would tear the Feruchemist in half, then would double team the Mistborn with the Elantrian.
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I agree with Inquisitor.
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Dahkor Monks have about 50 times normal human strength, agility, endurance, etc.
There is no limit to how high a Feruchemist can tap their metalminds, so as long as they time their hit right, they could get a solid hit at 50, 100, or even 1000 times human attributes. It would probably expend their whole metalmind though, or almost all of it, reducing them to using only the storing powers.
Though I still think the best bet is for the Mistborn to Pewter spike the Feruchemist, then grant themselves the power to store speed in Steel. A Mistborn with the ability to move "with a speed as if to make the fury of a tornado’s winds seem sluggish," should be enough to get to and kill the Elantrian with minimal problem. From there, starting a short dash at the monk while steelpushing on a moderately heavy projectile would create an incredibly forceful attack, well more than enough to kill even a person with fifty times normal strength.
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there is a limit to how far a feruchemist can tap anything because if he goes beyond his own body's limits such as strength his heart would give out or explode... and if he took all his knowledge he would forget the majority ect
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So we're bringing hemalurgy into this now :D
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I guess everyone has their own idea on how this would work, you should have made this a poll. I would want to see the results ebcause this is getting confusing on who think who will win or who thinks who is more powerful.
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Um…it is a poll.
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Oh dear I've lost my mind. :D Sorry.
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I just thought of this. Is the Dakhor monk like Dilaf? Or is it just a regular one? Cuz if it's like Dilaf, Team Opelon definitely takes this.
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Yes, Dakhor monks are the ones like Dilaf.
…what's Team Opelon?
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I just made it up. Opelon is the name of the planet Elantris is on.
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Oh. Really? How do you know that? ???
Yeah…if they were just normal monks they'd get destroyed.
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I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in another thread, although I'm not sure which one (might be the Shards of Adonalsium thread).
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Opelon is actually the continent rather than the planet.
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/book/Elantris/page/36/ELANTRIS-Glossary
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OK. The term still applies :). BTW, do we know the name of the planet?
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Isn't it Scadrial?
[EDIT: grammar.]
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Isn't it Scadrial?
[EDIT: grammar.]
Scandriel is the planet where the mistborn live. Opelon is the continent that contains Elantris.
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Right, sorry; I got them confused.
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OK. The term still applies :). BTW, do we know the name of the planet?
I scrolled through that entire Elantris Glossary that Ookla linked us to, and I did not see a name for the planet. And I don't remember ever hearing a name for that planet.
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I know the name of the planet...except I forgot it.
It's mentioned in one of the Warbreaker annotations. Which will probably be released in a special edition Tor ebook before they go on the website.
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OK, thanks. Shaggy, back to what I was saying earlier, Dilaf was more powerful than other Dakhor monks. That's what I meant when I said, "Are they like Dilaf?".
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I know the name of the planet...except I forgot it.
It's mentioned in one of the Warbreaker annotations. Which will probably be released in a special edition Tor ebook before they go on the website.
In the Warbreaker annotations? Hmmm, interesting :D
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Speaking of annotations, when will we (probably) start seeing HoA annotations?
If there were battle ready Elantrians, I say Team Opelon totally wins. Because if you had a smart enough Elantrian, he could make siege weapons like you've never thought about, or booby trap his clothes, or change his looks so that he looks like the Mistborn. The Aons can just do so much more than Mistborns or Furchemists. Unless you get into Hemalurgy or Atium/Lerasium......
edit- wrote Furchemy instead of Hemalurgy
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I've started editing the HoA annotations, so they'll probably start appearing rather soon. We may just auto-schedule them, a website feature Brandon has not actually used before.
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Great. How often would they be updated?
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Wait…how is Dilaf more powerful than the other Dakhor monks??
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He has the ability to stop the effects of Elantrain magic
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I thought that was an ability of all Dakhor monks.…
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No it isn't it took 50 sacrifices to grant him that ability
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Great. How often would they be updated?
I'm going to schedule them for every Tuesday and Thursday. Starting probably tomorrow.
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I actually think Dilaf is a pretty good example of how Brandon balances his powers. You can get extreme power, but only at high cost. Sacrificing 50 people to get one high-powered monk is seriously expensive.
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Did they have to be like monks or just any random 50 people? 'Cause if they were just random ones then it's not that heavy a sacrifice.…
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I don't remember but all the sacrifices i think were monks not necessarily Dahkor monks though and hell one life is a serious sacrifice Shaggy
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Not to people like Dilaf.
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I have to agree with Shaggy. This man sacrificed one of his monks to teleport to a place he could have walked to.
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And I'm sure most of the other Dakhor monks are the same.
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Yeah if it was an indivisual it would have been a very big deal.
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I'm getting the feeling most of you don't know how much work goes into even fifty normal people.
Think about it. The cost of fifty normal people is equal to the sum total of all the work (including food) which went into raising them, plus any work they don't do (including food they won't farm) which they could have done if they hadn't died, minus any support needed for them once they can no longer work. In the milieu for Elantris, I doubt this last expense is very large because most people probably die (at least, without Elantrian help) before their upkeep becomes expensive.
These numbers add up *very* quickly, especially considering the work they could have done if they hadn't died. Think about the time and effort most parents put into raising their children. This stretches over years! Consider the cost of simply having somebody come over and babysit a child for a couple of hours (say, 8 bucks an hour) and multiply it by the number of waking hours for a typical 12 year-old. I get $560,640 just to raise a child for 16 hours a day to the age of 12. For 50 12-year-olds, just the cost of paying attention long enough to keep them out of trouble costs about $28,032,000 in modern US dollars. This is time and effort that could have been put into other endeavors if the parents had decided not to have the child.
Even if this is an overestimate, it is just the beginning of the expense of raising a child. There is also food and housing, which will add up just as impressively. Of course, in a rural economy, most of the children will begin to be effective at real work in their early teens and so start to earn back some of the resources dropped into them. If the economy is growing, they will produce more in their lifetime than was used to raise them. If they are sacrificed, however, all that future work is now lost and this future work is almost certainly also on the order of millions of dollars of lost productivity over their potential life-span.
The economy of a kingdom is just the combined effects off the productivity of all the people in the kingdom, especially if one considers farming and food. Thus any sacrifices made to produce the monks will directly impact Fjoren's bottom line even if nobody around bothers to measure it. Thus Dilaf is an extremely expensive piece of military equipment (and it shows). Brandon, I believe, understands this high expense; it is only one such monk in Elantris was actually made this way.
Of course, this brings up the reason for Dilaf's sacrifice of a single monk. The answer is: This was a flagrant waste of resources, done by somebody used to having a lot of money, designed to cow everybody around him. There are always stories floating around about the outrageous things dictators sometimes do with their money on a whim. This is much the same thing. From an economic standpoint, it was pretty stupid, but the wealthy sometimes do stupid things. After all, this sacrifice didn't just loose a person. It also alienated Hrathen. Think about that.
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We're not saying it wasn't a huge cost, we're saying Dilaf didn't view it as a huge cost.
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We're not saying it wasn't a huge cost, we're saying Dilaf didn't view it as a huge cost.
I think it would be better stated that Dilaf thought the cost was worth it. With this monks life, he thought he was buying the loyalty of all the other monks. Even in-story, I don't think he did it for a lark. Also, if he did it too often, I suspect Wyrn would have talked with him. The bottom line must be considered at some point, after all.
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I disagree. Dilaf was at least half-crazy, an angry zealot, ridiculously powerful, and (IMO) saw all others as beneath him. And all that stuff that you posted…yeah. Like Dilaf would be thinking about any of that.
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I felt like Dilaf's ultimate goal was to destroy Elantris. Anything that helped him toward that goal was a small price to pay.
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Both Happyman and Inquisitor have made the best points so far... but back on topic Elantrians win if they have home field advantage though on Scardriel they are pretty weak...
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I disagree. Dilaf was at least half-crazy, an angry zealot, ridiculously powerful, and (IMO) saw all others as beneath him. And all that stuff that you posted…yeah. Like Dilaf would be thinking about any of that.
Dilaf was crazy, not stupid. I don't think he would spend an expensive resource (like a human) unless he thought it was worth it. Remember, we don't know how often he did it.
I felt like Dilaf's ultimate goal was to destroy Elantris. Anything that helped him toward that goal was a small price to pay.
I absolutely agree. This means that somehow sacrificing a single monk to transport him to Wyrn's palace must have been considered worth it; Dilaf practically stated outright that it was intended to terrorize the other monks into strict compliance.
Also, I would like to point out to everybody here that my original statement said nothing about Dilaf's attitude towards human life or the purely monetary expense involved. I was saying that creating an ubermonk is expensive, and that this is a way to balance the magic system. The fact that Dilaf doesn't seem to care about any of this says much more about Dilaf than about the accuracy of my original assessment.
And this is relevant to the topic at hand. It means that ubermonks should be considered fairly rare when comparing magic systems. Not as expensive as, say, a God-king awakener, but still.
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I know he wasn't stupid. Obviously. I, too, think that in such a situation, if I was on that side, I would think that sacrificing 50 lives was well worth creating a loyal, near-indestructible supermonster to help us.
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I know he wasn't stupid. Obviously. I, too, think that in such a situation, if I was on that side, I would think that sacrificing 50 lives was well worth creating a loyal, near-indestructible supermonster to help us.
Yeah, from their point of view, it was worth it. If we considered ubermonks to be a form of military equipment, many different countries in the real world have spent as much money producing effective machines. It is indeed possible.
But it does cause some problems for them. For instance, it would be difficult to keep making ubermonks if the Elantrians figure out a consistent means of destroying them. Don't forget that the other side has their own form of super-soldier whose limitations are in location rather than expense. Thus a full-fledged assault on a prepared Elantris may be unfeasible.
Of course, this depends to some extent on the limitations of the supersoldier form that we aren't familiar with in detail. For instance, how do they distrupt the Dor? Is there an upper limit to how much damage they can take before their protection fails? Would it still be possible to destroy Dilaf with a big enough blast that overwhelms his protection?
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Well, that's probably why (as far as we know) uber/supermonks were decidedly rare.
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Well, that's probably why (as far as we know) uber/supermonks were decidedly rare.
My point exactly.
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Then we're arguing towards the same thing. Let's stop.
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Then we're arguing towards the same thing. Let's stop.
If it makes you feel better, I don't think it was so much an argument as a discussion. After all, we never called each other names or addressed anything other than the points raised. And alas, I must confess to having really wanted to get the bit about humans being expensive out. Brandon seems to like using human sacrifice as the evil parts of his magic system, and it seems to me that it comes with a hefty price-tag to me, even without considering the ethics. However, in the systems he uses it in, it makes sense, so all is well.
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This is not the first time I've been told that my use of the word 'arguing' is misguided. :D You're right; it really was just a discussion.
Hmm. Well, it certainly lends itself towards showing how cruel and unyielding many of his darker characters were.
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Why does everyone miss understand the concept of argumentation... it is a form of disscussion to find answers you can not be invovled in argument if you have a closed mind it is simply a fight....i need to start watching my lectures on argumentation again less they go to waste... thanks for the reminder :P
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I'm gonna say that Sazed-God comes in and wipes them all out for fighting. then nightblood comes along and destroys the entire world.
Spook wins.
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Nope.
Hoid wins.
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Pfft! Bela owns all!!!!!
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Ugh, Bella FTL because she never went blood sucking vampiress a.k.a. awesome. BOOOO!
Stephanie Meyer makes my angry.
She had everything set up for a perfect and deadly battle several times throughout the series, but wimped out every single time.
She can't do her characters justice if she saves them through the flimsiest excuse possible every time. ERGH! I refuse to read any other books she writes.
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Ugh, Bella FTL because she never went blood sucking vampiress a.k.a. awesome. BOOOO!
Stephanie Meyer makes my angry.
She had everything set up for a perfect and deadly battle several times throughout the series, but wimped out every single time.
She can't do her characters justice if she saves them through the flimsiest excuse possible every time. ERGH! I refuse to read any other books she writes.
I have to agree with you there. The only fight senes in the book that we see are them kiling James and Edward killing Victoria. I would had LOVED it if one of the Cullens had died. **Rose***
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The horse from WOT guys. The horse. Not the idiot girl from that horrible series.
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Oh this is not good. Mentions of Twilight in my thread...Now I must resist the urge to join the bashing, and that's always hard to do where this series is involved....
I agree with Zas. Hoid wins. Hoids beats everybody. Meaning the mistborn, the horse, even Harry Potter. Hoid FTW.
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Narg later walks in and eats Hoid...because he is Narg
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Oh this is not good. Mentions of Twilight in my thread...Now I must resist the urge to join the bashing, and that's always hard to do where this series is involved....
I agree with Zas. Hoid wins. Hoids beats everybody. Meaning the mistborn, the horse, even Harry Potter. Hoid FTW.
Sorry!! :-[ Got confused.....
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Oh, it's okay. I just wasn't expecting it....It's always been hard for me to resist bashing Twilight when it comes up, and it's just grown all the worse as of late. I'm not sure why. My hatred of it apparently continues to grow as more time passes. Odd, that.
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oops... the horse. Ok. I'm ok with that.
Oh, it's okay. I just wasn't expecting it....It's always been hard for me to resist bashing Twilight when it comes up, and it's just grown all the worse as of late. I'm not sure why. My hatred of it apparently continues to grow as more time passes. Odd, that.
I find the same thing. I initially loved the books, but the more I think about it, the more I realized that so much more could have been done easily. /sigh
Ok, no more of that for me.
In any case, coinshots are just too fast for Elantrians to handle. Mistborn wins.
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don't be absurd they can make a shield before the mistborn are even in range... and the ones that are really good can teleport a yard to the side and blast them with a power aeon because of the surprise
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Hmmm. I guess I'm not really all that surprised about how this has turned out, but...I don't know. I guess it makes sense that so many people are voting for Mistborn, since that was a trilogy and was therefore able to delve much more deeply into the extent of the magic, and such. Whereas with Elantris, it got a fair bit into the magic, but we don't know exactly what each Aeon does. We don't know how fast some Elantrians could get in drawing Aeons if needed to draw quickly....
I'm inclined to think Raoden, given a few years, got get very adept and quick at drawing the Aeons. Quick enough to, like Kaz says, throw up a shield and deflect coins shot at him, or even turn those coins into something else--like feathers (I still can't remember which Aeon it is that changes. Anyone want to help me out here?). I also think he could draw two Aeons at the same time. Yes, this would be difficult, but no more difficult than learning how to play the piano or any other activity which requires both hands doing different motions....
A Raoden like this, I think, would be able to take down Vin fairly easily, while Dilaf/another Dahkor monk distracts Sazed/another Feruchemist long enough for Raoden to take care of them...since, let's face it, the Dahkor monks can't do nearly as much as the Feruchemist can.
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We don't know enough about the abilities of the Dakhor monks to accurately compare them to a Feruchemist. For instance, we know they can teleport, but we don't know how they do it other than it requires a human sacrifice. They could have other abilities that were not shown in Elantris.
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let's face it, the Dahkor monks can't do nearly as much as the Feruchemist can.
It all depends on how much ^stuff^ they have stored up.
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Yes, but I was actually giving them quite a bit within the confines of this hypothetical battle. They had weight, health, speed, etc....which is more than the monks have (as far as we know, but as Inquisitor pointed out, we don't know everything the monks can do. If I don't want others to be hasty with Elantrians, I shouldn't be hasty with the monks...).
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Raoden actually draws to power aeons at once at the end to blast two different monks...and Elantrians are faster stronger more agile and better coordinated than average humans
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Does he? I don't remember that?...And yet, I'm not surprised. Well. I guess I kind of am....I mean, if he does, why are there so many people who are so certain that the Elantrians/monks would lose?
(I understand thinking it out and coming to the conclusion that they lose, but to look and it and go "They lose" and not even really think about it is what I mean...)
I originally thought the two teams were fairly evenly matched, all things considered, but the poll definitely shows otherwise...So apparently I was wrong. *shrugs* Oh well.
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Thats an issure Stephen Erickson adresses in his books...just because you are in the minority doesn't mean you are wrong the majority can just as easily be wrong!!! And since i am in the minority with you the are most assuredly wrong because if they were right that would make me wrong and well that's just something that would go against the law of nature ;D
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Raoden actually draws to power aeons at once at the end to blast two different monks...and Elantrians are faster stronger more agile and better coordinated than average humans
That's true, but i wouldn't consider a Mistborn, a "normal" human. still they could, quite simply burn pewter and jump/dodge the said AonDor magic or Dahkor monks even with the monk and Elantrian's un-human speed.
Also they could burn atium to know what's going to happen.
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It's also much more difficult to do two different things with your hands, as opposed to drawing two of the same Aon, which is what Raoden does.
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It's also much more difficult to do two different things with your hands, as opposed to drawing two of the same Aon, which is what Raoden does.
Yeah. It takes a LOT of practice to get your hands to be doing two different things at the same time...Took me about 3 years on the piano to really get used to that. Now (I've been playing for about 14 years) I can do it without thought.
I imagine it would a good year or two to be able to draw not only with your non-dominant hand, but also draw two different things simultaneously...And make sure they're precise like Aons have to be. Note that this timeframe is for all the Aons. Not just the more simple ones. Obviously, the more simple the Aon, the easier it will be to learn in your non-dominant hand. And, simple logic, the more you practice, the faster you get.
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Personally i think misborns could win without feruchemists. if it were dahkor vs. feruchemists alone, i think dahkor would win...
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I think in any battle with Feruchemists, it depends on how much stores they have.
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I think in any battle with Feruchemists, it depends on how much stores they have.
One thing i was thinking about today was, do the Dahkor monks have a certain amount of time they become demon-like? Or can they simply stay in that state as long as they want? Also could the Elantrians draw apon the AonDor as much as they want also? in that case it would only be fair to assume that Feruchemists and Mistborn could have unlimited reserves also. Again if that happened the feruchemists could simply keep drawing heath back from their metalmind... Haha i think i just confused myself a bit..
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I disagree with your comment about unlimited stores for Feruchemists and Mistborn. With those two, it's more about skill than it is about the reserve metals. Yes, how much you have available to you is important, but it doesn't matter if you have 4 vials of every single Allomantic metal if you suck.
Skill is also the most important factor with the Elantrians. It's not how much they draw upon the Dor. It's about how fast they draw and how many Aons they know. Therefore, the factor that should be even to "make the fight fair" is the skill level of the two opposing forces.
I don't want to keep repeating this, but you can't take an almost-end-of-HoA Vin (who has had 3-4 years to practice Allomancy) and pit her against an end-of-Elantris Raoden (who has had an awe-inspiring 2-3 months). THAT isn't fair.
As for your question about the monks. I have no idea. I don't think enough is currently known about the monks to tell. Perhaps we'll find out in 2015--when the sequel comes out.
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I think in any battle with Feruchemists, it depends on how much stores they have.
In this case I don't entirely agree. I feel that the amount of stores a Feruchemist has available is important, it is also important how a feruchemist deals with not having enough stores. Look at what Sazed did when Tensoon broke him out of the kandra jail. He didn't have his metalminds so he used available sources of metal to change his current weight and speed by filling the bars and the lock. So say a feruchemist was out of his available stores. It would then be up to how they used their ability to store and draw at the same time. Just like a Mistborn it would become a more give and take type of fighting with excessive multi-tasking. They would be forced to maybe store weight to give them more speed then tap that weight when delivering a blow. It would be hard but I could see it being possible.
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What's the debate here?
In Elantris, the Aons can be used to work any arbitrarily complex spell. Teleportation, healing, changing appearance, creating food from dirt, it's all possible. For combat purposes, among other things, one can use an Aon to specifically target someone. Hard to dodge a homing missile or magic effects that can't even be dodged. (for instance, if you drew someone's name and then an Aon to cause death, would there be a projectile that could be dodged or would the effect simply happen? Probably the latter, and the only defense would be either protective Aons of your own, or maybe in Elantris there aren't any death Aons written into the city)
In Mistborn, all of the powers are very limited, and generally do exactly one thing only. You can't "write down" a hugely complex spell and activate it later.
I liked the Mistborn magic system to, but there's just no contest here. If an Elantrian is sufficiently prepared before battle and close enough to Elantris to be fully juiced up, there's simply no way he or she could lose. It's most likely possible to create a hugely complex spell by carving it into something and to set the spell to activate when you draw a unique character. So, by drawing one character, a spell could be set to teleport you around randomly, put a shield around you, block all mental effects, surround you with fire and whirling razor blades, and to automatically target any living being within 100 meters with everything you've got. Only real limit is that Elantris the city has a finite amount of total magic available to everyone, and individual practitioners can only draw on so much power at once.
There's a ton of weaknesses built into mistborn's magic. Among other things, metal users can only push or pull things made out of metal...in elantris, one could write a sequence of Aons to fire pieces of something not made of metal (like rock) at supersonic speed towards any of your enemies. Goodbye Mistborn.
As for making your own Aeon that activates a sequence of other Aons...I am extrapolating, but not by much. Elantris itself obvious has written into the city "translation" that somehow specify what each Aon will do in terms of a simpler form of a magic. Like a high level versus a lower level programming language. That's why the city broke in the book....a key library had it's name changed...
One final thing : Atium. Atium only works if there is a WAY to win. If there's no possible way to get close enough to that Elantrian surrounded by a shield and maybe whirling non metallic blades and protected by healing Aons set to repair any injury in seconds, you can't win.
And why fight at all? A clever Elantrian could simply have an Aon that teleported him home while replacing his body with an illusion that is booby trapped. That's certainly what I would do : the trap would blast anyone who tried to harm my illusionary body. If that didn't work, I'd return to the battlefield, invisible (yet another effect that is not available to a mistborn), and spend some time spying on my opponent to determine weaknesses. Or perhaps simply remote scry my opponent : presumably that's yet another thing that can be done with Aons.
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I don't know ... you seem to assume there is no limit to what can be done with the magic system. That might be true, or it might not. We haven't really been told what the limits are to the system, since for almost the entire book, it was broken, anyway.
From my reading (and admittedly, I might have forgotten a bit that would indicate otherwise), I can't recall the prince learning to create any new glyphs, he just learned the ones that were already in existence, and fixed the major one that was broken.
Now here's an idea to work the other way ... can anybody think of any way that a powerful Mistborn could create enough damage to the grounds near the city of Elantris to create a big enough change in the Earth to invalidate the major glyph that the prince fixed? Break the whole system again, and the Mistborn could win pretty easily. (I will admit, however, that I cannot instantly think of a way for the Mitborn to do that kind of damage.)
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I'll acknowledge that sabotaging elantris itself would be a great way to shut down their powers. The Elantrians are so immensely powerful because they have the city...it's like a technological form of magic. Their ancestors worked out how magic works, worked out the rules, and created the transformation and the glyphs and everything else so that they could live long, comfortable, peaceful lives. But, as long as they have the city working, then there's no real contest between Mistborn/Ferunchemists and Elantrians. There's a lot of magical effects in the book "Elantris" that simply cannot be duplicated by any powers in the Mistborn series. Teleportation alone is an immensely powerful "effect" that pretty much trumps anything that the Mistborn or Ferunchemists have in their arsenal. The fact that spells can target a specific person by name, making them unblockable (unless you're one of those monks) is also an effect that is pretty much unbeatable.
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Names are never mentioned in the system and even though your on my side i have disagreements with you... the system currently is well finite. I am not saying that you can't achieve any given affect by undiscovered aeons and their modifications, but thats just it, they AREN'T discovered. I have made the point of advanced planning and people blew me off and i don't no why. Raoden is a tactical genious and could have beat Vin before she went all demi-god on us.
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Yes, Names are mentioned. I can find a quote out of Elantris if you want...at one point in the story, Raoden tries a spell, and he adds the Aon for the name of one of his friends to target him specifically. That might be all it takes to stop a Mistborn - a couple of Aons to stun or kill your opponent, followed by an Aon either specifying your opponents name, or one specifying "the nearest person to me" or something similar.
And the system may be "finite"...but all of the things I mentioned are in the book Elantris. There's illusions, transmutations, teleportation, tons of effects. Furthermore, you are allowed to create a spell where you can precisely specify what you want to have happen, complete with numbers. Even if there aren't any Aons not already mentioned in Elantris 1, there's enormous power and flexibility, far beyond anything a Mistborn could wield.
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Certain people have names based of Aeons but that wouldn't change the meaning of the Aeon or its use Raoden is the Aeon for spirit and modifications, additional lines and symbols, do allow advanced instruction on an aeon but on the names... i'm reasonably certain never gonna happen that is far too complex in addition to the fact of shared names...
Though atleast we got another elantrian supporter!!!!
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Champion, that HAPPENED IN THE BOOK. Sigh, let me open up Elantris and find it.
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Kaz, I think Habeed is talking about something Raoden did with Galladon. Galladon's name isn't based on an Aon. So if Habeed is correct, and Raoden did target him with an Aon, using his name as an extra modifier, then that means others, theoretically even those not from Sel, can be targeted.
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The entire defense of the Misborn case relies on different ways to prevent an Elantrian from ever drawing an Aon. It does no good to have an all-powerful Misborn destruct-o-matic 3000 Aon in your pocket if you get a coin through your head or glass daggers in your chest before you can reach it. (Well, assuming those killed you fast enough.)
The two main methods of approaching this are Mistborn speed tricks and physical Aon prevention. Metals like tin, pewter, atium, and bendally (even if it is mostly vetoed.) would all give a Mistborn advantages to reaction time, perhaps shortening the gap enough to defeat an Elantrian before they fire off a shot. Metals like Iron and Steel, and to a lesser extent Zinc and Brass, could be used to throw off an Aon mid-drawing, rendering that Aon useless and giving the Mistborn time to close in.
And when comparing heroes, I'd say it's more fair to compare Raoden and Elend, instead of Raoden and Vin. Raoden and Elend are both newish to their skills; Elend has more practical experience but Raoden was studying Aons long before he was thrown in Elantris. Raoden and Elend are both high-level users of their respective systems, and the two are even fairly similar in personality.
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First of all, if it's a "surprise attack", then whoever is the attacker generally wins. In real life, a knife beats a machine gun or even a nuclear weapon if you can sneak up to your opponent by surprise.
Second, if it's a duel, then I suppose that if the Elantrian isn't allowed to pre-draw Aons then it doesn't look good for them. Mistborns/Ferunchemists do have the nifty trick of being able to access their powers almost instantly.
But, here's a quote from Elantris that illustrates why an Elantrian would probably win at least 90% of the time
"A burst of light shot from the Aon, the air warping and twisting around it.
The bolt took Dilaf in the chest and exploded, throwing the monk backward.
Dilaf crashed into the side of a building and collapsed to the ground. Then,
however, the priest groaned, stumbling back to his feet.
Raoden cursed. He dashed the short distance and grabbed Sarene. "Hold on." he
ordered, his free hand tracing another Aon. The designs Raoden crafted around
Aon Tia were complex, but his hand moved dexterously. He finished it just as
Dilaf's men reached them.
Sarene's body lurched, much as it had when Dilaf had brought them to Teod.
Light surrounded her. shaking and pulsing. A brief second later the world
returned. Sarene stumbled in confusion. falling against the familiar Teoish
cobblestones."
Several things are in this paragraph. First, Dilaf has been boosted with the sacrifices of fifty monks specifically to resist Aon magic. He's a magical superweapon. Yet, even though Raoden is so far from Elantris that he is only able to teleport about 50 feet, the basic power Aon blasts Dilaf off his feet and slams him into a building. A few pages earlier, one of the enemy priests is vaporized in a single hit from that power Aon in a square inside Elantris. I don't think a mistborn would fare any better.
Second, it only took Raoden a moment to draw a teleport Aon to get away. I'd say teleport pretty much trumps every single power in the Mistborn book series except for the gods in the last book. And that's all it takes to guarantee that an Elantrian wins a fight with a Mistborn. Step 1 is to teleport away, step 2 is to come back later, protected with a ton of buff Aons and a few dozen friends, and blast the Mistborn with targeted Aons from a safe distance.
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Right, there's no case that Elantrian magic could destroy a Mistborn. But even your teleport away and return with buffs strategy would require enough time to draw a correct Aon Tia. In any given fair situation, a Mistborn burning the right metals will always have the faster reaction time, and consequently always have the opportunity to act first. If a Mistborn can make those few extra moments count, they win. If they cannot, the Elantrian wins. That's about what it comes down to.
And even pre-drawn Aons would take time to activate, but that is a much shorter time and would be much harder to counter, especially if the trigger was, say, blinking. I still think it could be done under the right circumstances.
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Pewter can make a man run as fast as a horse not faster everyone puts this huge importance on the reaction time of a mistborn but it isn't near as awesome as people think you can't close a 20 yard gap in a blink of an eye... not too mention acceleration time. And in the midst of a charge you can't dodge much of anything one power aeon vaporizes darn near anything and even if flaring pewter saved you your not getting up again.