Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Reading Excuses => Topic started by: Frog on December 15, 2008, 12:24:39 PM
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Okay here we go. Like I said in the email, my submission ran a bit long, but I really wanted to get to the first chapter because I think it probably needs more work than the prologue, so feel free to only critique that part of it. And if you have time to read them both, then I'll love you even move. Thank you!
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All right, I've read both parts. As basic impressions go, I liked the Prologue far more than Chapter One.
I found Vernack and the dragonets far more interesting than the humans, wizards, or elves. I find that elves are just overused, so much so that I don't really care much about them. Dragonets, however, I really like. From the Prologue, it seems that the dragonets are a force for stability in the world, by dispersing around to different factions. The telepathy makes that task easy, since they can all know what is going on in the world. It makes me curious what the dragonets really want, and how they were created. Very good with the dragonets.
Same with the drow. I always want to hear more about demons. :D
On those two worldbuilding fronts, very good job.
Elves, though... Meh. Well, in the Prologue, it was good because the elves and the wizards are obviously not on good terms. I found the part when Garrad killed them to be very good. In chapter one, on the other hand, I just don't care enough about the elves. Their only distinctive property from other elves in other stories is that these ones appear to be shorter. Other than that, they aren't really fascinating subjects.
At first, the use of the <> got on my nerves, but once I got to the first chapter, I realized you wanted to distinguish the dragonet's telepathy with internal thoughts, and I think that decision makes perfect sense.
Major question: I want to know the significance of the Queen's Opal (I presume the Demon Queen is the Queen referenced there). As of now, I do not see why it would motivate Garrad so much. If Drynn is your main character, though, I'm sure you will explore this question in greater detail. You may want to explain at least a segment of its importance now, because right now, I'm not seeing it.
I'm interested as to whether the elves were actually the cause of the Drow War (releasing the demons, I presume) or that is just stretch of Garrad's. That is one nice thing about your elves: they are not superior to other races, it seems, as the normal Tolkienesque fantasy would have them. That is such a nice change of pace.
I do have a couple of critical problems with the way the story is written as of now. It's not bad, but it feels really telly. For example:
Garrad didn’t even try to deny it. “Well we’ve seen what happens when you try to be our equals.”
"Garrad didn't even try to deny it" is a very telly statement. Show me Garrad didn't try to deny it. Now, my policy with show-don't-tell is that it is okay to sometimes tell, but those "thoughtshots" where you get to tell should be thoughts or interpretations from your viewpoint characters. To me, it felt like there was way too much of Vernack interpreting and not enough showing.
That was probably my main problem with Chapter One in a general sense. Right in that first pragraph of the first chapter, it's telly. The whole thing doesn't have enough showing for me to really feel for Drynn. As it stands now, I don't really care a whole lot about Drynn. I don't know if that's a problem with the character himself or the way he is presented, but either way, I didn't get a feel for him.
The only thing beyond the telly-ness of it is the over-use of bizarre dialogue tags. I see what is going on here: you don't want to use the word "said". Now, a quick use of ctrl+f on your manuscript and it comes up somewhat in Chapter One (none in the prologue), but when verbs like "reported" start appearing, I get a little worried that you are a bit overzealous with the dialogue tags. For example: " “She is gone,” their father reported with a vague expression on his face." Is "reported" even necessary? It doesn't exactly add a whole lot.
It's okay to use said. It's okay to use it a lot. The thing with verbs like "said" and "asked" is that they are transparent--it does not bring attention to itself, it brings attention to the dialogue. "Reported" is stretching it. We know their father is reporting it just by the virtue of what is in the dialogue. The dialogue, in that case, is interesting, not how it is said. I mean, if you switched it to "said" there, you really aren't losing anything, because we still get the prepositional phrase which describes it further. So... yeah, don't be afraid of "said". It's used a bunch and it's okay.
In review, I am a lot more intrigued with Vernack and Garrad than anything that Drynn is doing.
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Oh wow, thank you! Lots of good stuff to think about…
First off, like I said before, the prologue is a lot a more solid then chp 1. I’m just not sure how to fix it. I mean, the events in the prologue happen a long time before my story takes place and since then the races, especially the elves, have isolated themselves to the point where any conflict they have is rather juvenile until I have them leave the forest. I’m trying to streamline it and kick them out as soon as possible, (believe me this is much shorter than the version I made poor Wilson read) but other than that, I don’t know how to make it more exciting other then to introduce everyone as quickly as I can and try to make it a little humorous. So I kind of have the prologue there to give you a hint to where I am going for the ultimate climax where all these issues are explained and reach the surface again, (especially the drow) hoping that you will bear with me for awhile, but if you have any other suggestions on how to make that process easier on the reader, I’m all ears (or eyes as the case may be).
I’m sorry if the elves fell flat to you. They are quite different then Tolkienesque elves (at least in my opinion), but I had a hard time showing that at first without the dreaded ‘info dump.’ I hope you will get more of these differences by 2nd chapter (where I explain the Opal a bit more too right off the back), but some of it I kinda have you learn as you go. You already noticed (which I am happy to see) the most important difference: they are on equal footing when it comes to humans/wizards (maybe even at a bit of a disadvantage).
Yea! I love Vernack and the other dragonets too (as they are probably my most unique creation)… unfortunately, he doesn’t come back for awhile (he’s still in the human kingdom, so they kinda have to find him again). But this is a multi character/line story, so it has been my experience that people who read it (yes, mostly friends and family so far) pick their favorites that get them through it and it is not always Drynn, even if he is technically the MC. That is fine with me, and I still am holding out hope that you’ll find someone else to love, but I’ll keep searching for other methods to help Drynn come more alive too.
Totally agree with you about the ‘said’ problem… I heard it once before, and tried to fix it, but obviously missed a few spots…
So thanks again for getting through it all and I hope you will stick with me for the next chuck. :)
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Oh, you bet I'll read the next chunk :P
What I mean to say about the elves is that... I just find that having a lot of different races can become kind of cliche, which is why I don't use them in my writing. It's just that part of me coming through, that's all :P It's not a reflection on the story. I'm sure any story that had elves would annoy me on some level.
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"Poor Wilson"? I don't consider myself poor for having read the longer version of this....I rather liked the longer version of it. And since I read pretty much the whole manuscript in one night....Well. Let's just say I was very sleep-deprived but I didn't really care. But you already know that....
As for this version. I've already told you what I think of the prologue (at least I'm pretty sure I did). First, though. One thing I don't think I mentioned. I think it's a lot better with how the story goes from here, that it was 3 elves that Garrad killed as opposed to the thousand that it was before....Much better. Liked that a lot.
Question: Why'd you change it from dragnet to dragonet? Was it just to enforce the idea of dragons? Cuz I liked 'dragnet' better personally....And I actually keep reading it as dragnet and then saying 'wait! no! it's dragonet.'...Just curious.
The rest now. I understand what Chaos means about the elves. But since I know where the story goes, and how the elves really are, I have to disagree with him. But only because I'm more informed. Your elves are NOT generic elves. Which is good.
I kind of miss Tayvin's tourney with Andver. But I understand why it was cut. And I think it works the way you referred back to it. It's really not a crucial part in the story, so there's no real point to have it....I agree that Chapter One needs some tightening. But you already know that. I'll make some notes with the tools on Word and send it back to you later this week after I get my laptop back (I don't want to do it on one of the family computers and save it on one of them. Everything QO- and QH-related should stay on my computer....)
Yeah. So, I'll do that and get it back to you. And since you've changed the story so much since I last read it and I still haven't got the chance to reread the whole copy you sent me (and now that you're doing this I don't think I'll spoil it for myself by reading it ahead of time), so I'm really curious how the other character's stories are going to change, or adapt to other changes made....One character in particular. I think you can guess who I mean, but I won't mention this character's name because I don't want to possibly ruin the suspense that could be created....Let's just say I'm looking forward to reading about a certain night out on the town with a certain blonde person. And later that night, in the same town, a certain elf who may or may not have an open window in his room....
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I have to agree and say the prologue kept me in the story better than Chapter 1. I could identify with your characters better. (I think Garrad is human?) I could have missed the reference.
Unfortunately it wasn't until late in the 1st chapter (when their Mom died) that I really began to build a repore with Drynn.
I don't know if it is you intention or not, but I kinda felt like I was reading a Forgotten Realms book. (D&D world)
I too am intrigued. I like where you seem to be going with the story, and there seem to be a lot of familiar elements to it. Good job, it's something that I would continue to read.
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It was late for me when I read this, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. I didn't have time to read the whole thing, so I skipped to chapter one per your instructions.
First of all, coming from someone who doesn't much care for this genre...I really liked your first chapter. Where others might want you to world build or go into magic systems or whatever, you kept it simple and not to complicated. I liked that. You brought the reader in at a good pace. You didn't overwhelm me with facts about your Elf world. Also, the characters are easy to follow, you immediately distinguished them very well and that is commendable.
Ok, just some tiny things.
How could a woman, as young and active as his mother had been, die when the when others of her age would outlive a few trees?
Just too many "When's in this sentence.
Drynn hadn’t thought of himself as a child for years, but wouldn’t say so, even though the king often paused for so long between ideas that it seemed painful.
I didn't understand that last part of that sentence...I must have missed something earlier. Here is another one I didn't get.
Drynn said quickly in hopes that would end the interview, not because he expected that he would wish to trouble his aunt or anyone else in the holt.
Now, this is just my personal opinion (and I struggle at this too), but I think your first opening sentence should be something that catches your eye.
Drynn didn’t like to fence and he wasn’t very good at it either.
Too me...this wasn't that catchy (keeping in mind I didn't read the prologue).
What I really liked: The jerk father was done very well. He seems really heartless and evil (if that is what you are not going for, then I suggest making him a little more sympathetic to your MC and brothers feelings).
What I wonder about: The girls in your book are very one-dimensional. They give the token girly giggle when around boys and are obsessed about them. If you are going for the pre-teen stereotype of immature girls, then you nailed it. Otherwise, if you plan on making any of these girls into definitive characters, you might want to downplay the Hanna Montana fan club. ;D
My only recommendation: Get to the conflict quick. This is probably in chapter 2, but get to it quick. Draw us in faster.
Overall, I really liked your first chapter. Sorry I didn't get to the prologue but from what I read, I think you are on the right track.
P.S. I also appreciate you reading my story as well. Your feedback was awesome. I really could see where I was struggling and how the reader was confused by my flashback. I plan on making those changes per your feedback. Thanks again.
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Yeah...looking at it now, I'm seriously considering cutting the first two paragraphs and see if getting through the tourney faster helps matters.
Wilson- Wow, I can't pull anything past you... I'm impressed :)
Yes, I cut down elf numbers quite a bit now that it needed actual characters and things rather than having it strictly flashback mode like it was before.
As for dragnet vs dragonet; the reason for the change was that I found out that Dragnet is some kind of cop/gov organization w/ its own show and everything. I am still kinda partial to the word, but I looked online and found that stories w/ somewhat similar creatures (outside appearance if not the powers) were called dragonets, so I thought it would give my audience a clearer picture of what Vernack was right off the back and eliminate some of the confusion of using him as the narrator.
Yeah, liked that little detail about Andver too, so I had to get it in somewhere :)
And that one part is basically the same (for now.... Mu ha ha ha!)
Necro- Garrad is a human wizard. I might never had said that outright and if it was confusing I will most certainly fix it (it wasn't meant to be). And, yes, I am a nerd that played D&D as a child... and as an adult (shh...don't tell anyone).
M-Thank you! I will look at those sentences again. Yes, you aren't supposed to like the father (evil may be over the top, but for now it will do) and the girls are all the annoying high school/fan girls of my past that I love to tease so much. So yea! :). And I liked your story a lot, so I'm glad it was helpful :).
A lot of my stuff may seem 'cliche' (I'll go ahead and admit it since I plan for you to find out anyway) but I kinda see them as staples in fantasy, that I (for one) don't get too tired of as long as you make it your own some how (kinda like romance readers/writers never seem to get tired of the old 'guy finds girl, loses girl, gets girl' and 'love triangle' motif). You are all free to give me your own opinions on the matter and cyberly throw rotten veggies if you see it as a major hang up.
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Responding to the discussion first…
I wondered a bit about the < > too. I realized before very long at all that you were using it to distinguish the thoughts of the other dragonets, and can’t really think of a better way to do it. It’s not a huge deal. On the other hand, it does look kind of … Animorphs… (Yes, I read those books. I was ten! Leave me alone!)
Contrary to Chaos, I actually assumed that the Queen’s Opal was the stone Drynn gets at the end of chapter one. Though those aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. I mention this more as a point of interest than anything.
You were talking about only having “juvenile” conflicts until you kick the elves out of the forest… Remember, even the most basic, dare I say mundane conflicts, can be interesting. And you have conflict here already – or hinted at. The relationship between the two brothers could be expanded a lot more, I think, and you’d have a lot more conflict then. Maybe not in terms of people warring and fighting and dying. But Drynn hating fencing, feeling a little bit second best to his brother, whether he admits it or not, having no idea how to deal with the womenfolk – you have the potential for lots of conflict. Even before his mother dies.
Oh, and I didn’t think the elf king was necessarily heartless and a jerk. There are all sorts of reasons why he might be so detached from his wife’s death, and it would be interesting to see some of them. Right now he does seem a bit one dimensional – reserved, emotionless elf king – but that could very easily explored, and probably should be. How much time you want to spend doing so, of course, depends on how large a part he plays in the story.
My comments:
“He was a dragonet” – any way you could say this while being a little less, er, clunky?
I personally don’t really care but the “elves, dwarves, drow” thing can be a turn off for some fantasy readers who think they’ve seen it all (even dragonets, as seen in McAffery’s Pern novels). On the other hand there are advantages to using the “built in” races, if you will, so I guess it all depends on what you’re doing and who you want to read this. I think it’s kind of a silly thing for people to not read stories over, but some of them might. And I think the only reason people thought of this as a D&D world is because elves and especially drow are just so associated with Forgotten Realms it isn’t funny. Personally, you can do whatever you want, and as long as you don’t write with your d20 in hand, I’m happy. (No seriously. In some Wizards of the Coast books, you can literally see the dice rolling.)
The elf’s first line – “We have good news, the war is over” seems kind of strange. For one thing, I wonder why Garrad doesn’t know this already. Besides, wars are rarely “over” just like that, there would be little insurgences or whatever you want to call them still happening. Of course, the latter can be explained by the elf wanting to put as good a face on things as possible. Something that Garrad could point out himself, perhaps?
Page 7, Garrad says: “She has no more claim to it if she ever did.” The meaning is unclear to me.
I’m not finding Garrad a sympathetic character at all. I’m finding him so unsympathetic, in fact, that I’m wondering why the elves are even putting up with him. He seems kind of like.. a tyrant.
I’m also wondering about the dragonents. They seem to be commonplace – at least, Vernack’s thoughts indicate that there are a lot of them, and nobody seems to look twice at him – and it seems to me that if dragonets are so commonplace, more people should regard them as the intelligent creatures they actually are.
On page nine, one of Vernack’s kin asks if he’s all right. You write “Vernack had no answer for her”. If the person who asks this is an actual character, you might want to distinguish them from the mass of actual voices.
On the last page of the prologue, you write “Vernack had many companions”. I didn’t realize right away that you’d slipped into an omniscient over-the-years type voice, and when this line came up I thought you were just saying Vernack had a lot of friends. I think that whole transition could be done a little more clearly and smoothly. I kind of had to step back and reason out that you’d switched into a more historical sort of voice, and I found that jarring.
I have Tayvin and Drynn pinned at around seventeenish. (Or the appropriate elven equivelant, if your elves have the whole longevity thing going on for them. That is, I’m assuming these two are elves.)
You have a tendency to use a lot different dialogue tags – “he reported”, etcetera, and sometimes the words you pick seem off. Remember that there’s nothing wrong with saying “he said”. As the guys over on Writing Excuses say, verbs like “said” are invisible – we don’t notice them. Plus, you can sometimes cut extra verbiage out by eliminating the dialogue tags entirely when it’s clear who’s speaking.
Drynn seems to have adjusted awfully quickly to his mother’s death. I have very little specifc things to point to. On page 21 he makes one reference to his mother “when she was alive”, but other than that… I’m not quite sure what it is, but he doesn’t seem to be either deep in grief or deep in shock. I hate giving vague criticisms like this when I can’t pin down exactly why something doesn’t work for me, but I really do think it’s worth mentioning…
I think that’s about all I have for you. Seems like a strong start so far.
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This is very good, but I do have a couple of things that made me pause.
The wizard council in the prologue just stops existing when Garrad and Vernack start talking to each other. Do they know about Dragonets or no? Also, I think that when Garrad sucks the life out of the elves it's a bit clunky. A better image (in my opinion) would be showing the elves' skin start withering or something like that and Vernack feel the power flowing into him. It leaves the whole life stealing thing without saying "he drained their life".
Also, I don't really like Drynn. he seems too whiny to me, but I have issues with drow and elves even being in the story. (You could even rename the Drow if they look more demonic. Elves with white hair and black skin seem kinda tame for being possessed by demons) Anyway, I play D&D too, so I understand the desire to put them in. Anyway, I feel like I'm being told about Drynn without being in his head. It seems too telly to me. And he gets over stuff too quick. If you put in a line about him just glancing over his mother's death in disbelief or something like that (and have him mentally refer to in the present tense) it would come across as a bit more sincere.
But seriously, this is one of the best traditional fantasies I've read in a long time. Keep it up, and watch out for those "asked" and "reported"s :)
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SilknSnow: Now that you mention it, I read Animorphs back in the day too, but I didn't even remember that they did that until you mentioned it. Which is usually how my bouts of 'creativity' go... Aw, well. I really don't know if there is a better way to do it at this point. I mean, in Eragon he just uses the italics and lets you figure it out, but that is a little annoying to me too...
Actually you and Chaos are both right. I hope you'll be able to see this as time goes on.
Thanks, I am working on bringing those conflicts out more. And the King will be explored, just not yet which is why I said it was okay for M to discount him as less than warm and fuzzy for now.
Who do I want to read it? That's a good question. Anyone that will I guess.... It's not especially dark or complicated, so probably a bit younger audience (or at least the more casual reader) than the usual Forgotten Realms crowd. And don't worry. No dice were used in the making of this book. :)
Guilt mostly. Just like Garrad, the elves blame themselves for the drow. Why? Now that is exactly the question I intend to carry through to the climax, so I won't get into that now. I tried to show that Garrad was sympathetic to his people, just not the elves because of the drow. Unfortunately, he is not a big enough character for me to spend much more time on his inner psyche at the moment, but the book is still young and there are many things to be explained. :)
Others might be surprised to see a dragonet (They are pretty exclusive about their companions, who they 'talk' to and he was hiding in the rafters at first for a reason) but the ones that are with Garrad are used to seeing Vernack, and they are used to Garrad being a bit mad about talking to him (Garrad wouldn't have done that in public either if he hadn't been so upset). The elves might have been a bit more surprised, but I kind of saw that as the least of their concerns at the moment....
Wow, you're like right in the middle. Later on, I tell you right out (in a coversation w/ another character) that Tayvin is the elven equivalent 19 and Drynn is 15. Sweet.
Don't worry. Chaos already thoroughly smacked me around for the tags and I am repenting as we speak.
I will also look at the individual lines you mentioned again. Some of them I hope will make more sense as time goes on (like what happened in the final battle that made it conclusively over and why Garrad and a lot of the other humans were sitting at home instead of fighting... though mostly I used the line to show the elves' desire to get past all their previous conflict; a sentiment Garrad obviously doesn't share), but if your confused to the point of irritation, that will have to be addressed.
Oh, and Drynn really hasn't adjusted. He just is not a big reactor (like his brother is) and takes a bit longer for him to process it. The second chapter starts without a real time break and hopefully you will see this more (hazard of chapters being broken up like this).
Spejoku: They know that Vernack exists...not the powers. And they are a bit detached from them (elevated stands is all I said, but what I meant is that they are kind of in a balcony area) so they can watch, but are not really close enough to join into such a short (and one sided) conversation. I will look at the draining part again... I was just worried about being too detailed because this is another thing I will be exploring later. And I'm working on 'showing' Drynn more too (it's kinda nice when you guys all agree on something :) ).
Thank you so much! You guys are great!
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Contrary to Chaos, I actually assumed that the Queen’s Opal was the stone Drynn gets at the end of chapter one. Though those aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. I mention this more as a point of interest than anything.
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Well, I knew that much. Captain obvious :P
I was more wondering why we should care if Drynn received the Queen's Opal. What is special about it?
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What is special about it?
haha...That's something you're just gonna have to wait for....
I think it's hilarious some of the questions you guys are asking. I've already read the book (or at least the older, longer version of it), and you guys (Silk in particular) are asking some questions that I know won't be answered until later in the book. Much later....And it makes me sad, because when I read it I had no idea what was going on until it happened....Well. Except for one thing. I figured out something a fair bit before it was revealed, and I'm like "Yes! I'm so smart!"....And now here you guys are ripping my pride to shreds. Apparently I'm not as smart as I thought.... :'(
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But it was a pretty big thing... You still are my favorite fan! (And no, I don't pay her nearly enough for all the nice things she says about me. She's just cool that way.)
The book really hasn't changed all that much. Just the beginning, the end and me attempting to fix some of the structural/fluffy/telly stuff in the middle. Are you disappointed?
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Alright, for those of us who don't know...what is a Drow? You don't even have to tell me what they are like in your book, just the traditional fantasy archetype. Please? I feel so clueless. Until I read some of these posts I had thought they were something you had made up yourself...
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I wish I was that good...
Anyway, basically a drow is a dark/demonic version/sub race of elves. Mine are a bit different then the forgotten realms version, so they are eventually throughly explained. For now, I'm just hoping you get from the reading that they are evil and scary and we don't like them without necessarily being into those aforementioned series. How'd I do?
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I definitely didn't get the idea that they were demonic or evil. I remember something about the Drow war, but if i recall correctly the evil life-stealing wizard fought against them. So I don't really know enough about them to make a judgment.
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Conversely, I knew the drow were demons. They were often referred to as such, especially in the prologue.
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Hmmm...well I'll keep banging my head on the keyboard and see if I can come up with anything to make it clearer... other than putting on a footnote that says "drow are demons", because that's just lame. If anyone is still wondering why I prefer to use established races...you may have found your answer. I just don't want to have to explain every detail from the get go. That's why I wrote a whole 500 something pages of stuff after the prologue. But it is all part of the process, and for some reason, I still enjoy it, so thank you!
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That's one of the biggest benefits of using established races, yes, as far as I'm concerned.
Just a point of interest, though. Chaos said that he knew the drow were demons, because drow are constantly referred to that way - but Chaos, you're familiar with drow already, yes? If that association hadn't been there, would you have read "drow are demons" or "certain, potentially unreliable narrator/character thinks drow are demons"?
If I'd read "drow are demons" without the association to the evil Forgotten Realms race, I might not have assumed that this was actually the case. People's perspectives are too skewed to take stuff like that at face value. Even in fiction. :)
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Actually whenever demons were mentioned I assumed it was referring to the elves, that Garrad hated them because of some type of religious or racial prejudice, not because some of them actually were demons :P
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That's one of the biggest benefits of using established races, yes, as far as I'm concerned.
Just a point of interest, though. Chaos said that he knew the drow were demons, because drow are constantly referred to that way - but Chaos, you're familiar with drow already, yes? If that association hadn't been there, would you have read "drow are demons" or "certain, potentially unreliable narrator/character thinks drow are demons"?
If I'd read "drow are demons" without the association to the evil Forgotten Realms race, I might not have assumed that this was actually the case. People's perspectives are too skewed to take stuff like that at face value. Even in fiction. :)
Actually, not at all. I had no idea what the drow were, nor do I have any knowledge of Forgotten Realms at all.
Maybe it's just because in my novel, I take the word "demon" very, very seriously. And literally, too. When an author names some race to be demons, they better be vicious and worth the title, hopefully doing some unspeakable acts to warrant such a title. Since it's really important to my writing to take the word "demon" seriously, I just, you know, take demons really seriously. Because--let's face it--demons are just cool to write about.
Frog, hopefully there will be a point where we get to see how badass the drow are, so that they are really up to demon snuff :D As it stands right now, I thought it was really clear that the drow were demons. But that could just be me and my obsession with cool villains/organizations of evil. I thought this quote made it pretty clear that the drow and the elves were different entities:
He could never forgive the drow.
He could never forgive the elves.
In fact... I was kind of hoping they would be way more villainous than just a subrace of elves... I thought they would be way more awesome than that. You know, real demons. Because demons are cool.
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I think my biggest obsticle at this point is that while Vernack is very careful to seperate the drow/demons and elves/Elbans, Garrad is more than happy to string them together. Which is a character thing that I don't think I want to change. I guess I was holding out hope that by the time you get to Drynn in chapter 1, and he thinks about the 'dark skinned demons of the Drow War that are only in stories,' that it would be clear enough... oh well. There will be other oppertunities, especially when they appear in about 100 pages and start causing havok :). Hopefully they won't disappoint (thanks for the added pressure Chaos! ;))
I wonder if we'll still be around by then. It doesn't seem that far away in my ms, but when you start breaking it down into RE approved chunks...well it may take awhile.
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They better be vicious :P
Hmmm... you know, it's not really clear that Chapter One occurs a long time after the Prologue. I mean, I kind of got that notion, but since (as the consensus stands) people seem to like Vernack a lot more than Drynn, it could be a good idea to really drive home the notion that there is a long time between the two periods. That way, readers don't really get sad when we don't see Vernack or Garrad for a long time.
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Oh, that's something I already changed after reading a previous post. This is how it reads now:
"Human lives were short. The years passed and Vernack had many different companions, but the barrier remained even when its original purpose was forgotten. Vernack’s current companion (a pleasure seeking alcoholic and the King of Kalum) was convinced that elves were faceless spirits and fairies that drunks and simpletons liked to blame when they got turned around in the forest. And Vernack wasn’t about to correct him."
Any better? Overboard or not enough? because my next jump would be saying "over two thousand years later" and that sounds as lame as the footnote idea...at least to me.
I'm hoping you also get from that that Garrad will not be coming back (at least outside of flashback mode) because he is well...dead. Very dead. But there will be plenty of evil and not so evil wizards to take his place and Vernack is still going strong, trying to whip them all into shape (No one pities his fate more than me).
I'm also thinking of sending out my 1st chp again once we decide when the next round is to see if I am showing Drynn any better or if I should just shut up and get on to the other characters before I lose my whole audience with my lame MC (I love Drynn, but I can see why it may take awhile for you guys to feel the same), but if I do, it will be with the 2nd chp instead of the Prologue, because it's tiny and besides little things like that, I didn't change the Prologue that much.
Oh, and speaking of which, do you think it is okay that I'm still in past tense when I talk about Vernack's current companion and the sentence after it, or should I switch into present tense (use 'is' instead of 'was')? Any opinions on that?
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I think you'd be fine staying in past tense. If you really wanted to get across the "a long time has passed" you could say "centuries" instead of "years". I fully condone avoiding the "2000 years later" line, though.
Also, I'd lose the parantheses around the clause about the King of Kalum and just make them commas. The brackets seem kind of unnecessary.
</nitpick>
Oh. I'm also wondering about how Vernack chooses his companions or is chosen by them, since he either makes a lot of unfortunate choices or has a lot of them made for them. Not something I need to know right now by any means, but if Vernack makes another appearance, you'll probably want to let your audience in on that.
Okay, so maybe I wasn't quite done... I am now though. Really.
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Actually, it is commas in my ms, but somehow they got turned into brackets while I was putting it on here for some reason.... Which is why I'm not a secretary.
Oh, and eventually you do get the 200o years later...I just am being stubborn about putting it in the narration. As long as you get a generational gap feel, I would be satisfied for now.
I'm glad you want to know those kind of things about Vernack. It means I have an semi-interesting subject and since I already have it explained later in my ms, I get to play the evil author and not tell you. ;)
Thank you!
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You may play the part of the evil author and not tell them....but I could play the part of the even more devious reader, and spill all I know about the book....But I won't. I probably wouldn't ever get more of QH if I did that....And since I'm very curious how a certain recently crazy character is going to fare in that book.....well. Let's just say I won't mess up my chance to read it. :P
I will say, though, that Vernack IS coming back...I like Vernack. Vernack is cool. And his new companion is even better....
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You do realize your playing a very dangerous game... I could take a leaf out of a SM's book and throw a hissy fit where I decide not to finish the books (sorry if there is any Twilight lovers in the audience), and start killing off your favorite characters in unsatisfying ways like atomic detonations in a fantasy book (it helps since you already told me who they are, including the 'recently crazy' and Vernack's new companion) along with denying you your exclusive access... oh the possibilities are endless....:)
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Except you already knew that both of them were my favorites. I've told you numerous times in e-mails....But I also like Drynn.....I think I'd like to see you kill your MC in an atomic detonation (not really...but I would like to see how you go about accomplishing it :D).
And it's funny that you should mention Smeyer, because when I said that I could spill all I know about the book, that was pretty much exactly what I thought of. And if you even TRIED to pull a Smeyer, I'm not entirely sure that I would ever talk to you again....I hate that woman. More than I can possibly put words to. But you already know that because you read my insanely long note about Twilight on Facebook....But I digress.
Anyway. Back to QO. You don't have to kill off the "recently crazy" person. Remember? You made the person 'crazy.' I think that's bad enough. You know what I mean. I do not like the 'craziness' that is currently afflicting said character. It makes me sad :'( .....And you would never kill of Vernack's new companion. At least not to get back at me. You'd be punishing other readers too much, cuz I know I'm not the only one who likes him....Plus you said that you don't like killing characters. Need I remind you of Aaron? ;)
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I've killed off Drynn and lots of other characters in atomic detonations (w/e they annoy me somehow or I am frustrated by writing in general) I just fix it later when I figure it out and life is good again. And I meant you've told me your favorites before and I could add a few more to my hit list if I wanted to.
Oh, if I pulled a SM, it hardly would matter at this point. After all, It's hard to disappoint fans that you don't have... or leak a book that isn't published.... So, I still have to work quite a bit before you can hate me as much as her. An interesting goal, but it could be entertaining.
He's staying crazy. Get over it. :P
I did so kill off Aaron. I killed him so completely that he's not even in the book anymore, so there! I just don't like to do it just for the heck of it, only if it really adds to the plot (like a certain Queen's death that everyone else already knows about).... or puts a certain person in their place.
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You got rid of his character just as thoroughly as you got rid of Harold....and I liked Harold. He was evil. He was cool. And now he's....gone. Sad that.
And I have gotten over his crazy state. I just want to see how it will pan out with him. And the other evil man that he's with who consistently refers to him as "Nephew"....
And now I'm curious who else I told you I liked. Josie? Vernack? Cindle?....Sorren? ;D
My goal isn't to hate you as much as SM. I don't normally hate people, so....this is weird, having such an intense dislike for this lady. My hope is that even if your book IS leaked somehow (although you make a good point that it wouldn't matter, but let's hypothesize and say that you're published and someone leaks QH) you'll still finish it for the sake of you fans and not throw a tantrum saying how you're just not 'emotionally capable' of writing it. Stupid woman. Hate her. Hate her with a passion. ::)
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Quit jacking my thread! This is where people are supposed to be ripping my book apart, not where you ruin it for everyone by raising expectations and naming off characters that haven't been introduced yet and talking extensively about an author that I've already been traumatized by once in this whole writing process, as you well know (someone in another group compared my dragonets to her werewolves). I am going to have so much fun when you start posting your stuff again.... ;D
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Well....that may very well be soon then. Assuming we can ever decide how submissions are going to work, anyway....I was planning on submitting on the next submission date (which I thought would be this coming Monday, or something....but now I don't think so....).
You know what chapter is up next for mine, don't you? Chapter 2....The one that ends sweetly. At least, I think it does.
And sorry for naming characters....I just didn't know who else I had said. I was curious....And now my curiosity has been satiated, because I know the one big character that I forgot. And I'm sad that I forgot her....She rocks!
And let me again reiterate what I said when the traumatizing experience first took place. This is nothing like Twilight. Twilight is garbage. This is actually good. Your characters grow and develop, whereas hers are static and flat and frustratingly stupid...among other thing. Your book has a plot. Hers does not. Your book is interesting to think about weeks after reading it. Her book is also interesting to think about weeks after reading it....As long as those thoughts involve fire.....Yours doesn't need that addition, though....And I could continue naming differences, but....I don't really feel like it....
Oh, and since you mentioned it. Sorry for the thread-jacking. Wasn't really trying to....just sort of happened ::)
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Wow, I was totally kidding...through all of it. You can jack my thread anytime you want...and thanks for the ego stroke. You're good about that, even though I understand that you have to be a little biased. And I was very surprised to see that you missed that one character which actually shall remain nameless. :)
Yes, your next chp is very interesting and I can't wait to see what you've done with it.
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What I've done with it?...That would be nothing since you last saw it....That chapter won't get a whole lot done to it. It's Chapter 3 that will....At least the end. You told me some good things last time....
And I could tell that you were joking, but I figured an apology couldn't hurt....And yes, I'm surprised that I missed her too. I don't know how I managed that, but it's probably because I was focused more on Opal, and she's more in Heir....kind of. Right?....Maybe I'm wrong....I'm probably wrong. It's been too long since I last read Opal, and I never did finish Heir.....
Why do I have to biased? Because you were my roommate?..Ah, but you're not anymore. And the title 'roommate' really doesn't mean a whole lot, as I found out this last semester with my bad case of hunger right there towards the end...Stupid roommates....But we won't get into that here.... ::)
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I dunno, Frog, you'd better do something about this Wilson character. She's leaking your secrets all over the place!
I mean, without her, we never would have guessed that Vernack was coming back. Jeez.
::)
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Of course you wouldn't have guessed. I mean, when he returns, I'm sure you would've said, "Well hey! Look at this! It's a dragonet with the same name! I wonder if they're related?!"....Or maybe you just would've said "Vernack.....That sounds familiar....Why does it sound familiar?" and then you would've shrugged and continued reading.
Right?
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Well yeah, if you hadn't said that I just woulda assumed that we were talking about Vernack the Forty-Third. What's more, until that happened, I never, ever would have wondered about what happened to the talking dragonet from the prologue ever again.
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Totally. Because characters in Prologues are completely worthless.....
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First off Wilson, that character is in Opal plenty. And I should hope you haven't finished Heir because with all my revisions, I haven't come close to finishing Heir and it would be a shame if my book was so predictable it started writing itself... ;)
Poor Vernack. I hope he doesn't hear all your sarcastic comments. Even if he can't really talk, he does have a bit of a temper among other things... (i.e. smacking certain people with his tail...). Though I must say that thought of 43 Vernacks would terrify certain people....
And yes, I am seriously considering investing in a gag. Or handcuffs...they would probably be more effective in this case.
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Handcuffs?....Hmm. I doubt it. I could probably still find some way to type. Remember, my laptop works again (yay for the power adapter coming early), and therefore my computer is mobile. I'm sure I could get it to my hands, where ever they may be cuffed....
Though I must say that thought of 43 Vernacks would terrify certain people....
Would one of those people be a certain blonde-haired chap?...I'm thinking 'yes'.....there's a slim chance that I'm wrong, but I really don't think I am.
Oh flip! Yes, of course she's in Opal....Dang it....Now I remember.....*cue lyrics, It's all coming back to me now*.....Argh. I'm really kind of upset that I forgot about her...Curse me.
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Well let me state first off that I am familiar with the forgotten realms setting so most of the assumed knowledge will be in place.
Since I’m running hopelessly behind on all the reviews I’ll be keeping them a bit shorter, so sorry for less shredding to come.
I did like the prologue, the conflict was strong and clear and the dragonet seems interesting.
I’m not too keen on your solution for the timejump. I’d suggest skipping the omniscient paragraph of the prologue and have Drynn mention the legends of the horrible Garrad when he mentions the drow war. There being legends should imply a lot of time having passed.
Chapter one seemed too flat to me. None of the characters got fleshed out enough to make me care about them. I’m sure that will come in later chapters but for now it didn’t really get me involved.
Drynn could use some positive characterization. So far you’ve shown us he is not a fighter, and he’s not the focal point of the giggling herd, nor id he very emotional about his mother’s death, so who or what is he? Perhaps instead of showing him being bullied around by people who are doing what they want to be doing, you could show him doing what he likes, give us a trait or skill to define him and gauge him before you show the people around him get the better of him.
Also, shouldn’t there be a corpse and rituals if the queen is dead? Wouldn’t the servants that moved her have cried out and told others about her passing if she was so loved? So far her death seems to have about as much impact as a stuffed toy that was tossed away. (Next chapters I’m sure, but I actually need to see some impact on the world right then and there.) Few things will make the world stop quite like the death of a close relative.
That’s about it for me, I do agree with the points made above and quite like the world and the setting you’ve got going.
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Good questions. Questions that should be answered over time, but they bother me a little, so I will answer them now. Despite what Garrad said about 'rotting corpses' (because he is a ignorant human that uses his own expressions whether or not they apply) elves do not leave corpses. The death of the three elves where "nothing was left but dust blown from empty cloth" was not just a freak occurrence. It happens every time an elf is killed rather than going to Falberain . And there is another spot in the first chapter after Drynn first learns about the death were he thinks about the journey to Falberain vs elven bodies disintegrating (very Jedi, I know but there is a reason for it). Elven royalty is very laid back (house is just as small as anyone elses, Tayvin and Drynn have friends in the holt they interact with as if they were on equal footing) so there are no servants to speak of.
So, until the boys come in, no one knew that the queen had died except for the king who was there when it happened (and we all saw his reaction...).
I'll admit all of these points are a little obscure at this point and they will come out several more times, but I just felt a need to settle it now for whatever reason... (I hate breaking up my book, but what can you do?)
As for everything else, you mentioned some of the things I thought of when I tried to think of ways to 'show' Drynn better, so I'm glad that you are here to tell me I am on the right track (no sarcasm).
Thank you so much! You guys are great!
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Wow....
First off, can I apologise for not having a lot of negative critism... if any.
Very, very well written!
Felt really sad for Drynn when his father seemed completely detached from his mother's death. It was like... yes, your mother's died, here's the opal.. good luck. That's what it seemed like... really felt for him.
The only thing I would say is that we don't seem to get to know the characters very well. Like, what it is they do, where they are... but it is getting late, and may have mssed that.
Thought the older brother/younger brother/older brother's best friend scene was brilliant, just after the fencing match. The older brother being adored, the best friend suddenly ignored, and the younger brother just sort of.... there... wishing he was taller.
But very, very well done!! A brilliant read!
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Took me quite a while to get around to reading this one, but I finally did. Yay me!
Anyhow, I really liked your writing up until the very end of chapter one. I thought the dialogue was really well done up until the conversation with their father. At that point, I'm not sure what it was, but the dialogue just didn't feel real, and it wasn't interesting. However, up until that point, I thought your writing was very well done.
I was very intrigued by the prologue. The Dragonet character is interesting, and I'd like to see more of him (Of course, had I been on the ball and been reading these things when they were posted, I probably would have seen more of him by now).
I wasn't entirely convinced by Garrad's little outbursts, though. Maybe if I understood more of the background, I would see why he got so angry, but from what I knew, it just didn't seem realistic. However, I though you did really good describing his appearance and mannerisms.
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Yay Danger! I'm actually impressed so many people were willing to read this submit... it was rather long, but now this thread is officially 4 pgs, though a lot of that had to do with thread hacking than my actual writing prowess now that I think about it....
Background on prologue coming later I promise! It was purely a hook, nothing more (which is why its my prologue, not the 1st chp), though it certainly seemed to do the trick... at least far better than any of my later writing. Almost makes me wish I could bring Vernack back earlier than I do, but I don't know how it would fit... that and he is the closest thing I have to the wise old man archetype and him coming too early would ruin some (if not all) of my plot twists... He's just too smart for his own good....
Oh, well. I'll just have to keep working on making my other characters more interesting....
Thanks again!
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At long last! I've been looking forward to reading your work. (Mostly so I can return the favor with the mean comments... just kidding!)
Right off the bat, in the prologue, I love that the POV character is some kind of mage familiar. Very cool.
The "thinking brackets" <> bother me though. I think you'd have the same result with italics and/or simple quotes, but that's just me. I'll get over it.
Garrad was outraged. Vernack knew it even before he leapt from the throne, blue eyes blazing and hands balled into fists.
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Show, don't tell. The first sentence told us his mind set. The second part of the second sentence showed us. Go with the show. :)
By page 4, I'm already overloaded with teasers. I know prologues can be a great place for setting up stuff that can be explained later, but my gut feeling is that you can do that once. Twice, at the most. So far though, you've mentioned wars, drow, Elbans, demons, and gatherings of mages. That's fine, but just consider explaining all this stuff as you introduce it.
...the new Bearer would come of the Queen's blood, so her line will keep it and see the prophecy fulfilled."
Is this what your story is going to be about then? (Neat.)
The end of the prologue was pretty abrupt. I like how you fast forward many years. Just consider doing it a little more smoothly
You have a huge imagination. I'm really excited about this story. Elves, drow, betrayals, wizards, etc... I eagerly look forward to more. Unfortunately, most of the prologue -especially the the first 5 pages-- fell apart for me. I was completely lost, and that took me out of the story. Sure, I could follow the basic idea, but having no context to put things in on frustrated me. Also, with the exception of the first few paragraphs, I never got a sense of where the characters were, or who else was physically present. (I like the idea of Vernack having a whole gathering of peers "listening in" on his conversations though) Things got better starting on page 6,however, when the elves arrive. Consider possibly just starting it right there.
Regarding Chapter 1....
SO much better. :) The prose here is almost from a different writer. (LOL, Again, I'm teasing, but it IS stronger and more in control here) It's not as hurried and is far easier to read. I wouldn't necessarily say this chapter is "exciting" per say, but its neat to see what these elf boys and girls are doing.
I find it odd that a teenage (??) elf would refer to girls as "elf-maids" or "elf-girls". Wouldn't that be like you or I walking around talking about "human girls"? I could expect a HUMAN character to say "elf-maiden", but not an elf. Make sense?
That's a...um... pretty blunt way to tell kids that their mother is dead. Felt a little out of place for the king, even though we were just getting to know him.
“What exactly do you think I could have done about it? Sickness cannot be fought off by silly things like swords, you know.”
This line bothered me quite a bit. That's a really, really shallow thing to do at a time like this. Maybe this king is a jerk. If that was your desire... well done! (And bonus points for having his sons only refer to him as "Sire") But if you're looking for this king to have any sort of warmth or wisdom or gentleness to him, this line is out of place.
(Edit... after reaching chapter 2, I see that he's a jerk. So... yeah, good line!)
Overall -- good job! I'm looking forward to catching up and reading the rest.
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I've read the other replies in this thread, and I'd like to clarify some of my own opinions:
- Traditional Tolkien / D&D elves tend to be a little dull. But I'm not interesting in judging that. If you have a good story, and it happens to involved elves... great.
- The prologue is certainly more "exciting" than chapter 1. But it's very much IMO a confused and overloaded cluster. There's a ton of potential for that to be a good chapter, but things need to be about 400% more clear and focused for it to work.
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I wasn't that mean was I? Maybe I was... it happens sometimes. Oh, well, now I can be sure that you'll be really picky when you read my stuff. ;D
Hmm.... that's a twist: Someone who had more issues with the prologue then chp 1! But I definitely see your point. Prologue is in overdrive and the rest of the book slows down to explain it; probably too much in certain places. My biggest thing right now is figuring out how to make it all work together.... As you could probably tell, lots and lots of stuff going on... My lack of focus is sure to be my undoing. ;)
...the new Bearer would come of the Queen's blood, so her line will keep it and see the prophecy fulfilled."
Is this what your story is going to be about then? (Neat.)
That's a good sized chunk of it, yes. Good luck guessing who it is ;)
“What exactly do you think I could have done about it? Sickness cannot be fought off by silly things like swords, you know.”
This line bothered me quite a bit. That's a really, really shallow thing to do at a time like this. Maybe this king is a jerk. If that was your desire... well done! (And bonus points for having his sons only refer to him as "Sire") But if you're looking for this king to have any sort of warmth or wisdom or gentleness to him, this line is out of place.
It's supposed to bother you. It bothers me too. Stupid, stupid king.... >:( But he will be explored later, like I said somewhere else.
Traditional Tolkien / D&D elves tend to be a little dull. But I'm not interesting in judging that. If you have a good story, and it happens to involved elves... great.
That's my opinion too. Tolken elves are very BORING. My elves on the other hand... well I'll let you judge for yourself. I like them though.
All good things to think about... thank you so much for getting to it! :D
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You're just a mean, mean person, Jacque. It's about time someone showed you just how mean you really are....;D
And you're not alone in liking your elves. I like them too. They're much more relatable than Tolkien elves. Relatability is ALWAYS a good thing.
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You're just a mean, mean person, Jacque. It's about time someone showed you just how mean you really are....;D
Wow, just tell me how you really feel wilson, but I guess I deserve it. I did kill off that one character after all.... :(
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Yes, you did *tear*....I understand why, but still. I LIKE that character. A lot.....And I know I'm not the only one. I almost want to ask how the person died. I know they were killed, but by what method? I'm curious if it was a worthy death. And if they fought back. S/He did, didn't s/he?
(Yes, I do know the gender of said person. I'm being purposefully vague, so no other readers can possibly figure out who I mean in the future....cuz that would be sad to be spoiled like that)
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You're just a mean, mean person, Jacque. It's about time someone showed you just how mean you really are....;D
You'll get your turn next, little_wilson. I saw those mean and horrible comments you left for my work. ;-)
And you're not alone in liking your elves. I like them too. They're much more relatable than Tolkien elves. Relatability is ALWAYS a good thing.
But more seriously now, one thing I forgot to add was that while I was reading your stuff Jacque, was that your elves simply felt like humans to me. In chapter 1 there wasn't anything that made them... elfish. I think you mentioned their long lives, and maybe a few minor physical differences, but so far that's it. I whole-heartedly think that you need a relatable protagonist (which you have, I think!) but so far, I don't see why you just didn't make him a human.
Looking forward to reading more and seeing unique elven traits that fit the character and feel right for the story.
:)
J
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You'll get your turn next, little_wilson. I saw those mean and horrible comments you left for my work. ;-)
Oh, that hurts. I was NICE. I even called myself dense (I think. I know I insulted myself. I just can't remember what I said specifically...). But if you want to start this, let's start it. It can be the War of Mean Comments....
And if someone wants to throw out a better name for the war, go ahead. Because that attempt was LAME.
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Come on Wilson, it's 'insert character name here'! Of course s/he fought back! I could never be that cruel to my character. I like him/her too much. :(
I don't see why you just didn't make him a human.
Oh, there are reasons. Lots and lots of reasons. Maybe not in the first chps when they are only interacting with each other, but the differences/reasons should be coming. At least I hope so. But mostly, he's an elf because I enjoy them and I am the evil writer and get to write what I enjoy whether other people enjoy them or not :D. J/k. All input/opinions are appreciated and taken very seriously.
You'll get your turn next, little_wilson. I saw those mean and horrible comments you left for my work. ;-)
Oh, that hurts. I was NICE. I even called myself dense (I think. I know I insulted myself. I just can't remember what I said specifically...). But if you want to start this, let's start it. It can be the War of Mean Comments....
Oh man, this can only end in tears...mostly mine. :'(
You just watch yourself. I still can get my army of theoretical mutant veggies if need be. :D