Timewaster's Guide Archive
General => Rants and Stuff => Topic started by: GreenMonsta on December 10, 2008, 02:16:38 AM
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So this is from the point of view of someone who grew up in the north east and doesnt quite understand some things. Ok so all of you who are not from the south, yet have visited there have seen this or experienced it to some degree. What I am talking about is southerners who for some reason, god knows why still represent the confederacy.
Ok so for a conflict that took place almost 150 years ago this is a little ridiculous. Now mind you I don't really care too much but I just want to know if anyone can tell me why. Why when I go anywhere south of Delaware am I known as a "Yankee"? Why do southern people still fly the confederate flag? I mean other than the obvious racist people because some of those who fly the flag are not racist.
I mean I spent a couple of months living at an army base in South Carolina and once I left the post I saw more confederate flags than American flags. And if you think I'm kidding I'm not. Its almost like they are more proud of that flag than our country's flag. Now I am not trying to say they are not patriotic I again am just lost. I mean every time I meet someone with a southern accent I don't start calling them confederates.
Please, if anyone can clarify this for me please try. Maybe I'm missing something obvious here but I don't think so.
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That and they call the civil war the "WAR of Northern Aggression"...
I too am a North Easterner who doesn't really understand that frame of mind either...
There is a really strong feeling of family and pride with a LOT of people in the South.
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I mean I get the whole family and pride thing. I too have a big and close family and we have a lot of pride but come on now. The War of Norhtern Agresion? Really, lets not dilude ourselves here.
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Born in New York, and never understood the whole thing either.
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Well, as a southerner--I can't speak for all of us--it's more about heritage than anything. While some are still fighting that war most have left it behind.
The Confederate flag doesn't really stand for slavery or oppression, but more for shared history. Much the same way some Texan's I've met feel about their lone star flag. Most of this is due in part because it's been handed down from family for generations. This goes back to when people used to think of themselves as say, Georgian's, before American's. If you go into say, Atlanta, its really not as prevalent as it is in the more rural areas. Statistically more people live in the city who were not even born in the state than those who were.
On the subject of Yankee: when I went with my wife to Up-State New York, I was called Rebel several times. And while we were in an admitidly rural area, there were--I'll just say a lot--of people there who also seemed to still be fighting the war over again. More through ignorance than any malice I think.
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I guess I can understand that to some degree. I mean most people from the Massachusetts (where I'm from) don't really have that much state pride. It boils down to area pride. I find more people having pride in the city they are from than the state. I guess that would explain why I don't understand the whole confederate flag thing. You could say that we view the American flag in much the same way. Seeing how we have had it passed down from generation to generation.
You really were called a rebel? I don't think I have ever heard someone call a Southerner a rebel in my life. And I'm not saying I don't believe you I'm just saying I'm surprised.
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When Yankees think of the South, a great deal of them immediately think of the Ku Klux Klan. I'm glad that it appears people in this thread are not of that mindset.
There is a lot of culture and heritage that the South represents. More presidents, for example, were citizens of the Commonwealth of Virginia than any other state in the Union. The South contributed the separation of church and state, the model for the Bill of Rights, and the first secular universities (in the world, I believe, but certainly in the western hemisphere). And really, that's just Virginia.
As a side note, a lot of westerners and Yankees like to say that Virginia is not part of the South because of its geographic position in the mid-Atlantic seaboard. But culturally, if anything, it's the South magnified. The capital of the Confederacy was here, and there's a loyalty to Virginia that oft-times exceeds loyalty to nation. Robert E. Lee, for example, knew that in principle, the North was right. But Virginia was in the CSA, and by God, he was a Virginian. So he led Confederate armies. There's a deep, deep pride from being in Virginia that goes way back to the Colonial era. If I moved to northern Virginia today, I would not see the attachment to the Commonwealth that I feel because I grew up here for decades now. Fairfax County in particular has changed a LOT -- diverging far from Virginia proper. But since my roots predate much of that change, I still feel myself attached to the rest of it.
We've had our problems, clearly. Slavery and the resulting stain of racism probably foremost among them -- though there are complex historical factors, Reconstruction imposed by the North among them, that did a lot to encourage that.
But there is much in art and literature and lifestyle that comes from the South. The blues, a number of great writers, a relaxed state of mind, courtesy, spirituality, cuisine, family -- these are all aspect of Southern culture that those who grew up here are proud of and wouldn't trade away. The stars and bars remind a lot of us of that shared heritage.
I personally see the flag of the Confederacy in this way. It represents 260 years of culture before the Civil War even started. However, I do not fly it, because there are those who still see it as racist, and I don't want to give that impression.
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I get it. I mean at least some of it. I understand the wish to display the flag due to a rich history. I am aware that many of the southern state flags are actually adaptations of old confederate war flags and that is fine with me. I just don't understand the use of the flag on the scale that it currently is in use. I mean in reality cant you take pride in the nation in general? Its almost like we share a nation but a different history. Because the nation as a whole was split at one time it will now always be split in some manner of another. The north and south share a rich history dating back to colonial times. I live in a town that was the birth place of two presidents also the Adams family and the Hancock family both resided here and was founded in 1640. I may have been saying too much when I stated that not many people have love for this Commonwealth (Massachusetts). A lot of us don't like the state as it is now but love the culture and history that goes with it. I mean heck I was a member of a National Guard unit who's history can be traced back to the very first organized military unit in this country out of Salem Ma.
I guess the main difference is that the evidence of the civil war is much move evident when you visit the south (for the record Virginia is a southern state). For the most part we don't reference the war, we don't fly old Union flags often. I mean this is the first time I have heard the term rebel from a northerner to a southerner.
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You can take pride in your nation and also take pride in your history--especially if that history is as rich as the South's has been...or any of the east coast. There are times when I wish I was from the east coast just so I could get to live in an area so full of American history....And then there are many more times when I'm proud to be a Westerner. Proud to be living in Idaho. Proud to be a native of Washington. That's a pride I'll take with me where ever I go, because it's such a big part of me.
I think it's the same for Southerners. Like SE said, it's part of their history. They feel a pride for it. It's part of them....But that doesn't mean they don't also take pride in being American.
I know that it doesn't matter how much pride I have in my city/state/whatever, none of it even comes close to the pride I have in my country. But that's a pride I don't get to portray as much because for the most part, I'm always around Americans. So it's the other pride that shows forth (although not NEARLY on the same level as Texas...I don't think it's possible to beat a Texan in state pride). It's the pride of your own personal regional roots that shows the most.
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Alright I can agree with that. Pride in where ones from can be a strong thing. I my self have a good amount. That is to say I respect the history and the area. Now this doesn't explain the reason for referencing the civil war. I mean I understand the flag and every thing to a degree. Maybe not as much as it is used today but I do understand some of it. What about those who use terms like "Yankee" or refer to the civil war as the war of "Northern Aggression"? I mean come on now lets move on. Just because my father was one way doesn't mean I have to be. Most people alive today didn't even have a chance to meet someone who was alive at the time. Some times I just think that its stubbornness that drives some of this.
This is not to say that I take offense to the term "Yankee" because I don't really. It's more annoying than anything.
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There are close-minded people everywhere, and people who can't see the present or the future, but who only look on the past. There are still racists today. The Ku Klux Klan is still in existence. And there are people who hate the North because of the Civil War. I don't know why they're like this, but I think it must be because they apparently can't see the development of the world today. It doesn't matter that they weren't alive at that time or even if they haven't met anyone from that time. It's matter of pride, how much history they've studied, and perceived wrongs.
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I agree with little_wilson's comment about perceived wrongs. The Confederacy lost the war, and I believe that many in the South felt they had been badly treated, during both the war and the post-war period. When a group of people is oppressed (or believes it's oppressed) by another group, the hostility and resentment can perpetuate itself over many generations, long after the original oppression occurred. Many Native Americans still resent the U.S.'s mistreatment of their ancestors; many African Americans still resent slavery; many Irish people resent England; many Muslims still resent the Crusades. Descendants of the oppressors find it easy to say everyone should just let go of the issue and move on, but for whatever reason, it's not always quite that simple for the victims' descendants.
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Two comments:
SE: A significant portion of the doctrine for Separation of Church and State was developed in New England, too, where some puritans thought that the government should stay out of their religion.
Monsta: The war is way more evident in the South in part because, for the most part, the war was fought in South and not in the North.
For what it's worth, I've recently realized that I have a done of Western pride. I'm totally a Westerner in language, mindset, and attitude, and I take a lot of pride in the West, even if I don't like Cowboy films. I'm not particularly attatched to the two States I claim to be from, but I am attatched to the West.
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What about those who use terms like "Yankee" or refer to the civil war as the war of "Northern Aggression"? I mean come on now lets move on. Just because my father was one way doesn't mean I have to be. Most people alive today didn't even have a chance to meet someone who was alive at the time. Some times I just think that its stubbornness that drives some of this.
This is not to say that I take offense to the term "Yankee" because I don't really. It's more annoying than anything.
Well history is often written by the winner. And as such there are people out there who in doing their genealogies and historical research for family history have found, in their opinion, gaps. I don't really care who's right or wrong, but what I've learned is that many attribute, Northern Aggression, to representation or lack there of. This is still a cause of disquiet among some in the south. It's that they feel that they are not being fairly represented in the Union. A state(s) with a larger population have a louder voice, and some still think this is unfair. The process is over two hundred years old, but some people can hold a grudge for a long time.
As to the term "Yankee", I've heard and used it--not meaning anything by it--most of my life. It was something I grew up with and was just around in general. Those I think who mean it in a derogatory manner are just looking for some way to offend. Only a small percentage of people are really bigoted enough to really mean it. And yes I have met them. Heck, some are in my family, I don't talk to them much but what can you do? You can choose your friends but not your family. If you've seen Larry The Cable Guy, that's a pretty good portrait of the ones I'm referring to.
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I personally have never taken the term "Yankee" in a derogatory manner. I mean even if someone meant it to be derogatory in the end they were saying I was from the north and me being proud of that never took offense. I guess its not that serious in the end. I was mainly talking about the widespread use of the term in general and that's just part of the vocabulary in some places. I mean I am still going to be annoyed with the generalization, but I guess I'll be annoyed with it as much as people using words like "yonder" and "Y'all" so I think I can deal with it. I guess I always understood the issues between the sounth and north I just didn't look at the whole picture.
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There are those you use "Yankee" as an insult. I use it as a descriptor, myself.
Understanding why the South still has the Civil War in mind is primarily two places. a great deal of the famous battles took place south of the Mason-Dixon (Gettysburg the first and most obvious exception, and even it isn't very far from the border). We live with that reality reminding us of our history.
The second is Reconstruction. No one hurt the South more than John Wilkes Booth. Lincoln didn't want retribution or revenge for the war. He wanted to unify the nation as much after the fighting as he did during it. Because he was killed and Johnson took over the White House, Republicans running the Congress had pretty much free reign to inflict any punishment and indignity they wanted on Southern states. (Please note that Republicans in the 19th century were not the same as modern Republicans, I'm not trying to draw parallels here). The South and her (white) citizens were oppressed by the Federal government. Yes, they were still trying to find ways to maintain blacks as, at best, a second class citizen. But the North *was* making the South a second-class region. That's not the sort of resentment a people gets over very fast. To this day there is still a prominent stereotype across the country of Southerners being lazy, inbred, and/or ignorant. So there's a lot of defensiveness that goes into distinguishing ourselves as well.
The U.S. is a huge country, geographically. There's a lot of people here as well. 300 million may make it less dense than a place like the UK, but that separation contributes to a separation, culturally of regions. In the North you see it too. New Yorkers are not like Bostonians, generally speaking. Growing up in different regions even within the same nation when it's this large leads to differences in outlook and beliefs. Naturally the people don't want to be treated the same any more than a rural farmer is interested in the same issues as a mid-city business executive.
One distinction that has been pointed out to me is that when a Southerner wants to know more about you, he begins by asking where you're from. When a Yankee wants to know the same thing, he asks what you do for a living. To me, in many instances, that's explained quite a bit.
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New Yorkers are not like Bostonians, generally speaking.
This I can attest to personally. It is actually where some of the aggravation with being called a Yankee comes from. I mean come on, one of the last things I as a Bostonian would want to be connected to is Yankee.
I have to give it to you. You are right. Southerners live with constant reminders of the past and I can see why its hard to just move on. I also can say that being from the north there is a sentiment that Southerners in general are slow and lazy. Now don't get me wrong, not everyone thinks this but it is a common idea. The main thing we notice is that southern lifestyle in general is at a slightly lower pace and the people are generally nicer than we northerners are used to (at least us urban ones).
I can see why its hard for northerners to understand why the Southerners still talk and refer to the civil war. We as northerners live the history of the revolutionary war every day. Like I said before my town is just south of Boston and there has been so much history here I can barely take it all in. I would guess that's why I for one look at things the way I do. I mean there is a spot in my neighborhood where Abigale Adams watched the Battle of Bunker Hill. So I would guess that the difference is understandable.
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alot of good points made here.
I am Irish and still harbor a general resentment of England, even though I personally never suffered at British hands, I did know many people who did, some were family as well. I have also lived in a great many parts of the Northeast rural and urban areas, and I can tell you, I have seen and heard the word "rebel" used towards those with a southern bent, in the same manner they use Yankee, just a term used, not a put down.
Also, the "Southern" lifestyle (redneck, some might call it) is really a farmland lifestyle and mannerism. If you visit farmland anywhere from Pennsylvania to Vermont, people talk and act the same way as those from Mississippi or Texas in alot of way. The accent might be a bit different, but the speech patterns are the same, and the "slowness" is the same. Also, in some northeastern areas, Civil War thought processes are still in place. This is especially true in Pennsylania and upstate New York, and even in southern New Jersey and Delaware. Maryland is an oddball because peopel there STILL fight over which side they should have been on. Maryland, back then, was kind of a swing state, as was Virginia.
But largely, these mannerisms, from both top and bottom of the east coast, are largely kept among people who can trace their roots back through the civil war. Those of us that have US roots which begin later, have different outlooks. My latent-dislike for the British comes from my grandfather, who started his US life as a young boy watching British soldiers beat Irish expatriots as they were forced to board a ship bound for America. And from a great-grandmother, who starved as a child during teh Potato famine while the british blockaded Irish ports from recieving food.
But I dont REALLY hate the British, it is just a passed on cultural habit. Hard to break, really, this uber-Irish patriotism, even though I have never been to Ireland.
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It may be worth noting that some Europeans (and even some Asians) will use the term "Yankee" to refer to any American. As a Westerner, I don't get called "Yankee" by other Americans, and it always disgruntles me just a touch to hear Europeans (etc.) calling me a Yankee.
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I embrace the name Yank or Yankee when talking to my British friends :)
Though I did the same with the term "Gringo" when I lived in Mexico :)
I was born in the west (not mid-west) west west, but I grew up in Maryland and consider myself a northeasterner. I do tend to eschew all things southern. I don't hate the South, but I would never want to live South of Maryland....It must be in the water.
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I agree. I lived in SC for three months and I could barely take it. I dont hate it but for some reason I dont think I could survive very long. Its a nice place, its just a nice place for other people.
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Heh, i did BYU. Lived for years in Utah. I don't want to go back.
I would like to note that there are a lot of similarities between farm life in the south and in the north, that's not the whole defining trait of the South. Urban life in the South is very different from Urban life in the North. Even DC, which was Union, is in many ways Southern. Certainly cities like Charlotte and Atlanta have more similarities with each other than they do New York or Boston.
And yeah, I have an Austrian friend who calls me a Yank every now and then. Ticks me off. Which is probably why he keeps doing it.
It was once said that in the world, a Yankee is someone who lives in the US.
In the US, a Yankee is someone who lives in the northeast.
In the northeast US, a Yankee is someone who lives in Connecticut.
In Connecticut, a Yankee is someone who still has an outhouse.
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I like it SE. I also agree that there are still differences between southern and northern farmers. Although there are similarities due to their occupation the differences are still noticeable. And I am with you that Southern cities don't quite compare to Norther ones. Heck I almost got into three accidents driving to work this morning and that because everyone thinks they are more important than everyone else.
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Comparing cities is really not as important, my point was, that rural people, wherever they are from, have more in common with each other, including mannerisms, than they do with city peopel, even local cities. Go out to Vermont and you will find plenty of "rednecks" running around in overalls, chewing on grass, in barefeet etc. And When I lived in rural Penn and NJ, same thing. My friends who live in rural SC, same thing. Thats rural/farmland living, no matter where you are in the country (or continent). But go to any city and you will see the same thing, horrible disinterested traffic with rude people who cannot get where they are going fast enough. People who talk really fast and who would never think of going barefoot anywhere but a shag carpet.
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I agree and disagree. Yes the rural people will have more in common. As I posted in my last post, this is due to their occupation. I mean you can pick any occupation across the country and say that people who have that job will have more in common than people who don't. The difference is in how they act in their personal life. I also disagree with the idea that city people are much the same no matter what city they come from. This is not true. Yes their lifestyles are the same but if you have ever lived in a city in the south and then one in the north you would find significant differences and not just thier styles of cooking.
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well, I have never lived in a couthern city, but I have lived in 4 northeastern cities (Morristown, Allentown, NYC, Providence) and I have visited a handful of southern cities, plus Quebec and Montreal in Canada. My opinion remains the same. all "cityfolk" were rude and obnoxious regardless of where the city was located. For the most part, the countryfolk in all of the areas were kind and generous. Regardless of what occupation they held, this, in my experience, has been true across the board. There are other similarities between cityfolk, and other similarities among countryfolk which I will not go into (some may be regarding sensitive topics like religion, politic and hygiene)
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Providence as in Providence RI (little Boston). That city is not the one you want if it is the one your talking about.
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Yes, Providence RI. I live about 5 miles from it now. And no, it is not little Boston, not by a long shot. Providence has a more Italian and Portuguese flavor, while Boston is very Irish.
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You live in like Cranston or Warwick area??? Or like Pawtucket??? I know but thats what we call it.
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I just moved out of Warwick into Tiverton actually (right on the Fall River border).