Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Chaos on October 22, 2008, 03:02:28 AM
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This thread is to settle the bet regarding Elmandr's bet with myself.
The bet is as such:
If Vin Doesn't unite with the mist spirit, i will eat my hat. Yes, i did say "eat my hat."
and i mean it, if it so happens that she doesn't, i will post a picture of me eating a ketchup covered cap...
But if it does happen--i am to be addressed--by all who post the word "aye" (indicating their challenge)--as Sir Elmandr1.
Elmandr claims he did, in fact win the bet because Vin merged with the mists. I, however, say that the bet clearly states that Vin unites with the "mist spirit". Very different. (You can see that bet on page 13 of the Countdown)
Either way, both Elmandr and I will present our "cases", and we have both decided that members of "The Crew" (essentially the theorizers on the board before MB3 came out) can render judgment.
Myself, I think that it is pretty clear that Elmandr lost the bet, but let's wait until both Elmandr and I post our case :P
Yes, this is the best way to settle bets! Shush.
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Okay than, set up a day for the trial. I need time to prepare my defense.
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I anxiously await the day of judgement.... how about Friday?
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Sure, why not.
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Friday it is, then.
Are we going to have a poll thing to vote on?
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No, I don't think so. People can just post their vote. This would prevent a lot of the newer members from potentially throwing off the result (and boy, there are a lot of new members).
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Would that be strictly for those who were active in the theory forums, or anyone who was active during that time? 'Cause I didn't post too much with theories (I did read a few of them though).
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Pretty much everyone over Level 5 counts. I wouldn't focus too much on it, just on Friday post your "judgment". It'll be really obvious if someone doesn't fit, but it's an inclusive thing. Everyone pre-October 14th members can (yes, that includes Ookla) :P
EDIT: But obviously, you should have read MB3. If not... you really shouldn't be in this thread at all.
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I look forward to Friday! Really, there are several different ways to interpret what happened...
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Friday then. 8). Im cool as a cat on a window sill. Nothing for me t-t-t-o worry about.
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Just in case I don't get in on Friday (I'm very busy)
elmandr is wrong, the newly dubbed "Lord," Chaos is correct. I will of course try my hardest to stop in by friday just in case the arguments change my opinion (which I don't think they will).
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Why wait until Friday? There is no case here. The Mist Spirit died talking to Elend, his body rematerialized and thumped into the ash. She replaced Leras, she didn't merge with him. This is clear. You were on the right track, Elmandr, but there is a big difference between absorbing the mists and merging with the spirit that controlled the mists.
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That's what I said.
The mist spirit and the mists are not the same thing. Elmandr cannot make the claim that the mist spirit and the mist are the same thing, because he did not outright say that they were. He did not say that they were both of Preservation, either. Rather, he said that the mist spirit were all the spirits of the previous Heros of Ages, which is completely different from Preservation.
So, the kind judges here can take Elmandr's bet one of two ways: 1. In the literal manner or 2. In the original of the bet. If you look at the literal meaning, Elmandr clearly lost, because Vin did not merge with the mist spirit itself. If Elmandr makes the claim that the mist spirit and the mist were one in the same, that would also be incorrect. The mist spirit is the consciousness of Preservation (Leras), while the mist is the power itself. These are two different things entirely. And since the mist spirit died, Vin could not and never did merge with it, which is what the literal reading of the bet would entail.
If the judges interpret the bet in its original spirit, we can see that this hurts Elmandr's claim even more. Elmandr claimed that the mist spirit were the combined souls of previous HoAs. So, if you take this in mind, this doubly hurts Elmandr's claim that the mist and the mist spirit were the same, because if you look at the spirit of the bet, then Elmandr believed at the time that the mist spirit and the mist were inherently separate.
Therefore, in my official opinion, there is no question that Elmandr lost the bet.
(This is my official stance :P)
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Wait, we all assumed that the mist spirit was apart of the mist--its in the name. When people fell randomly, who did this? the mist alone? Or was it the mist spirit alone? none. it was both. This happened because the mist spirit is essentially apart of the mist. Your thoughts are different from you actions but they are apart of a whole.
It is wrong to say it now--since we can distinct the differences, however its seems rather strict and arrogant to argue that i should have known the difference before hand.
when i said mist spirit i meant the mist. i only refer ed to the mist spirit because it was the face of the entity. When Vin first merged with the mist was the mist spirit around? No. And yet that is the key reasons behind why i thought they would merge.
so when i say the mist spirit to refer to the mist--it should be overlooked because their was no indication of a separate role in them before hand. All that matters is that they are pieces of the same thing. One was the arm, the other the leg. yet both were apart of the whole.
Is it right to say preservation died? no, it isn't. It just lost its consciousness. Almost in a vegetative state. the body functions still.
Why i thought they would combine is a whole different matter. many people have come up with theories and most did not attempt to explain. Those how did usually we wrong. i was right that they would combine--but wrong on why...but was that really a part of the deal?
Take for instance Squire Chaos, he gloated the other day about guessing that Ruin would want the Atium Cache. And i applause the feat. However, he did not attempt to explain. Leaving his theory broad and open for interpretation. The more detailed you get the tighter the room is for what is correct.
So, trying to say that i am wrong because she combined for a different reason is true. But i am not wrong when it comes down to what we bet--which is what would happen--but wrong in why. And that is a topic and discusion of its own.
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Well I've been reading this site for a while now but I didn't register until a certain mistcloak made me. So, I might not be cool enough to have my vote count but you're getting my two cents anyway...
elmandr1 - I can see it how you are presenting it... Preservation was the Mist Spirit and the Mist were Preservation therefore you shouldn't eat your hat... but all it really seems like is a desperate attempt not to eat a hat. You were very adamant about Vin merging with the Mist Spirit and that wasn't done.
If we had know at the time that the Mist and Mist Spirit were of two parts of one entity at the end of WoA, I'da voted for you, but since they were two separate entities, as far as we knew... I'll get the ketchup.
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However, there is a distinction between the power of Preservation and Leras, the entity which controlled the power. When Leras died, the mists remained. Likewise, when Leras created the prison of the Well of Ascension, he was a weak, shadow of his consciousness. The mists and the mist spirit acted separately in this regard. If the mist spirit could still control the mists fully and completely, there would be no reason for him to keep using the Deepness to make people Snap.
In MB2, the mist spirit is trying to prevent Vin from releasing Ruin at the Well. Well, the killing-mists is a large factor of Vin going to the Well of Ascension. If Leras/mist spirit wanted to really prevent the catastrophe, then he would have tried to stop the mists from making people Snap, because that would prevent the "Deepness". Since the mist spirit did not do that, I can only assume that is because the mist spirit did not have enough strength to control the mists. This shows that there is a clear distinction between the mist spirit and the mist, even if they are both part of Preservation. They are not interchangeable.
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It might help if we just pull up what was actually said when we were discussing it...
I would like to announce something.
If Vin Doesn't unite with the mist spirit, i will eat my hat. Yes, i did say "eat my hat."
and i mean it, if it so happens that she doesn't, i will post a picture of me eating a ketchup covered cap...
But if it does happen--i am to be addressed--by all who post the word "aye" (indicating their challenge)--as Sir Elmandr1.
So, who's up for it?
(Emphasis added.)
Since i have placed a rather risky bet on this.
In general. What do you guys think of idea of the HOA and the Mist spirit uniting.
Let me elaborate before you answer...
to me, or i believe, that the mist spirit is the collective souls of the HOA's of the past.
And that the HOA of today must unite with the mist spirit to destroy Ruin...That would explain why Ruin would want the world to think it evil--and that why i think it changed that part of the prophecy as well.
I don't think that deepness is the correct word.
Ruin altered it--i don't know what the word actually is but thats no it.
Vin wields the mists once...it essentially gives her powers that no other HOA can have...
Mist spirit has control over mist...
mist is formless mass of infinite energy...
so, what do ya'll think?
So there you have it!
He's guilty. And while his bet could be construed another way such as in this quote:
I think that the HOA is supposed to be endowed with the Mist Spirit.
Which could mean absorbing mists instead... I still think that's too far of a stretch.
However, Chaos was the only one that I found who accepted the challenge, and therefore is the one to legally enforce it.
On another note, I should point out that Marsh didn't die, so Elmandr1 doesn't have to eat his hat for that:
Quote from: SarahG on September 25, 2008, 08:10:44 AM
I agree that Marsh has to die, though it will make me very sad when it happens. But I think at least one other main character will die too.
Must you be so grim?
He won't Die!
if he does, i'll eat my hat--do you agree to do the same if he doesn't?
this challenge goes for you as well, miyabe! Grin
Although SarahG only agreed to eat a chocolate in the shape of a hat, so I guess she should do that. ;)
(All these quotes are from the Countdown Thread, except this last one, which is from What will happen in HOA.)
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I think it is pretty clear that the Mist Spirit died before Vin even came to the power. So, while she did end up replacing him for a time, she absolutely did not unite or whatnot.
It would be akin to saying because Elend replaced the Lord Ruler as ruler of the Final Empire he "united" with the man.
He's Guilty!
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Is it right to say preservation died? no, it isn't. It just lost its consciousness. Almost in a vegetative state. the body functions still.
Preservation (Leras) died. Or rather, he was dead the whole time (ever since he trapped Ruin, right?). Like I said in one of the theory threads, the truth about the mist spirit was staring you in the face—the mist spirit was indeed a spirit: Leras's ghost. Then after the spirit communicated with Elend, even the spirit died. So he died twice. That's pretty dead.
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On a side note: Why is Elmandr so enamoured with hat eating? Are you part moth or something? Two different bets with the same penalty.
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i believe, that the mist spirit is the collective souls of the HOA's of the past.
And that the HOA of today must unite with the mist spirit to destroy Ruin...That would explain why Ruin would want the world to think it evil--and that why i think it changed that part of the prophecy as well.
I don't think that deepness is the correct word.
Ruin altered it--i don't know what the word actually is but that's no it.
Vin wields the mists once...it essentially gives her powers that no other HOA can have...
Mist spirit has control over mist...
mist is formless mass of infinite energy...
so, what do y'all think?
first off I'd like to thank you Qarlin, as i was to lazy to look for the original posts--even if they held the poof that i so needed to prove my case.
so thanks for that.
Did any of us know that the mist and the mist spirit were two different entities. Did anyone know they were the same? surely no one suspected that they were both the same and different. Yet you say that because of the unsureness of what it was i meant--that it should be taken literally. Well, read carefully what i said. I refer to Vin wielding the mist--and yet i said she would unite with the spirit. i mention that the evilness of the Deepness is another of Ruins alterations--and yet i speak of the Spirit.
I even mention that the mist is endless power. So, for your understanding, when i say mist spirit it is obvious i believed that they were essentially the same. i was wrong in that sense. However Vin did wield the mist as i said. She did kill ruin with it.
I did attempt to explain why. Or to assume how or what it would mean for her to take the power. Saying that it was the Collective souls of past HOA's. That. since it does not concern directly with the argument should be ignored.
Someone said that this is just a desperate attempt to not eat a hat--i have something to say to that; This is a fight for my name. I argue that i should be addressed as lord or Sir. The idea of me eating a hat is secondary. I am right anyway, just read between the lines, and be objective.
I i hadn't made the punishment as exciting as it is--you all wouldn't be so eager to see me charged...curse me demented creativity.
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i believe, that the mist spirit is the collective souls of the HOA's of the past.
And that the HOA of today must unite with the mist spirit to destroy Ruin...That would explain why Ruin would want the world to think it evil--and that why i think it changed that part of the prophecy as well.
I don't think that deepness is the correct word.
Ruin altered it--i don't know what the word actually is but that's no it.
Vin wields the mists once...it essentially gives her powers that no other HOA can have...
Mist spirit has control over mist...
mist is formless mass of infinite energy...
so, what do y'all think?
first off I'd like to thank you Qarlin, as i was to lazy to look for the original posts--even if they held the poof that i so needed to prove my case.
Quite a statement given that the consensus of the thread is against you. Me included. He's definitely guilty!
so thanks for that.
Did any of us know that the mist and the mist spirit were two different entities.
Several of us suspected it, yes.
Did anyone know they were the same?
They were definitely not the same. They were two different and distinct aspects of a larger thing. Saying they were the same is like saying that your personality and your body are the same thing; they may be intimately connected, but even the most determined materialist would admit that it is possible to separate the two.
surely no one suspected that they were both the same and different. Yet you say that because of the unsureness of what it was i meant--that it should be taken literally. Well, read carefully what i said. I refer to Vin wielding the mist--and yet i said she would unite with the spirit. i mention that the evilness of the Deepness is another of Ruins alterations--and yet i speak of the Spirit.
I even mention that the mist is endless power. So, for your understanding, when i say mist spirit it is obvious i believed that they were essentially the same. i was wrong in that sense. However Vin did wield the mist as i said. She did kill ruin with it.
You're stretching things here. Very badly. You claimed that the mist spirit was the conglomeration of the souls of previous Heroes of Ages. This is not the same as the mists. In point of fact, you claim that the mist spirit controls the mists (which it doesn't). Although you made good points about the power in the mists and them not being evil, the key point---that Vin would merge with the mist spirit---did not happen. And everybody, including you, thought they were distinct before the bet took place.
I did attempt to explain why. Or to assume how or what it would mean for her to take the power. Saying that it was the Collective souls of past HOA's. That. since it does not concern directly with the argument should be ignored.
Someone said that this is just a desperate attempt to not eat a hat--i have something to say to that; This is a fight for my name. I argue that i should be addressed as lord or Sir. The idea of me eating a hat is secondary. I am right anyway, just read between the lines, and be objective.
I i hadn't made the punishment as exciting as it is--you all wouldn't be so eager to see me charged...curse me demented creativity.
It's probably not an attempt to not eat you're hat. I have noticed, however, that you have sometimes been rather more strongly attached to your theories than the evidence would admit, and that you tend to interpret moderate criticism as support if it concedes enough points. This is a similar case. Once again, however, I must disagree with you.
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My thumb is still pointing down.
Who bit Chaos?
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My thumb is still pointing down.
Who bit Chaos?
Pointing down... for whom? To make a vote, make it obvious. Like a giant bold text of "He's guilty!" or something.
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Who bit Chaos?
He's Dracula! You know, the original...
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I think it is pretty clear that the Mist Spirit died before Vin even came to the power. So, while she did end up replacing him for a time, she absolutely did not unite or whatnot.
It would be akin to saying because Elend replaced the Lord Ruler as ruler of the Final Empire he "united" with the man.
He's Guilty!
Agreed.
JUDGMENT! I remember reading about you eating your hat right after you posted it Elmandr--and you're doing it. She definitely did NOT merge with the mist spirit due to the fact that the mist spirit had died. If she had merged with the mist spirit, both the old consciousness behind preservation and Vin would have had to been controlling the power of preservation at once.
They weren't. [/Judgment]
Guilty on one count.
Punishment: Hat eating time.
Preferable form of proof is Youtube.
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I'm a bit late, but my verdict: Elmandr1 is guilty.
And whoever said that Chaos is the only one who agreed is wrong. I said I'd call him "Your Holiness" if he won.
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Elmandr1 has Lost.
The simple fact that you admit you didn't know the mist spirit and the mists were not the same proves you were wrong. It doesn't matter that you got other parts of it right. Your primary argument was wrong. Vin didn't unite with the mist spirit, she BECAME the mist spirit, for lack of a better example. Now, if you would have argued that, while you were wrong on this point, you got others correct, and therefore should be forgiven from your boast, I would have been lenient. However, you instead tried to spin your comments with bogus interpretation, and still have the audacity to not only admit you were wrong, but that you should be commended for it.
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Youtube then....?
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Youtube then....?
Youtube! The time is nigh!
P.S. Nice fancy pants name. They gave you a heroic epithet, almost.
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I'm a bit late, but my verdict: Elmandr1 is guilty.
And whoever said that Chaos is the only one who agreed is wrong. I said I'd call him "Your Holiness" if he won.
My apologies; I stand corrected.
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I'll get it on there as soon as possible...drat!
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I'm a newbie, but I was reading through some old threads and I think that this one needs a return to prominence. I've never seen anyone eat a hat :D
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I'm a newbie, but I was reading through some old threads and I think that this one needs a return to prominence. I've never seen anyone eat a hat :D
Indeed. Its been almost two weeks Elmandr. Your video is in order!
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It seems like someone is a sore loser :P
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I don't think he expected anyone to take the bet seriously. I didn't when I proposed my bet to Andrew!
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I don't think he expected anyone to take the bet seriously. I didn't when I proposed my bet to Andrew!
I bet you that gas won't go down in price. If it does, I'll jump off a bridge.
Poor Timmy. He actually stuck to the bet.
To be honest, I'm note quite sure I'd recommend eating a hat...unless you like sliced it up and cooked it in a soup. Even then...what goes in...must come out. Oof.
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I am a strong advocate for hat-eating in this case.
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I wish I wasn't new to these boards....It would've been fun to participate in this little trial. I would've voted guilty just to see him eat a hat. I don't think I'd've been the only one.
I don't think it matters if he didn't think anyone would take it seriously. There's always a chance someone will. Like Chaos.....In times like these, you should make sure your end of the bet is, at least to some degree, not hindering bodily health. I'm thinking hat-eating could cause some digestive problems. I could be wrong about that, though....
Regardless, bring on the video!
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I concur with the general statements put forth by the majority. While I was around during the time of the "bet," I wasn't really active in that thread, so I can't really vote (even so, the votes over anyway), but I'm just throwing in my two boxing. :D
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I wish I wasn't new to these boards....It would've been fun to participate in this little trial. I would've voted guilty just to see him eat a hat. I don't think I'd've been the only one.
I don't think it matters if he didn't think anyone would take it seriously. There's always a chance someone will. Like Chaos.....In times like these, you should make sure your end of the bet is, at least to some degree, not hindering bodily health. I'm thinking hat-eating could cause some digestive problems. I could be wrong about that, though....
Regardless, bring on the video!
Oh, it would, unless, like I said, you cut it up.
See below.
Regardless, bring on the video!
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Perhaps it could be cut into strips and deep fried?
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That might make it tastier....If a hat can actually BE tasty in the first place.
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I dunno, I've never tried it. But in all seriousness, if there is a health issue, don't do it. I'm sure something else can be arranged. Muwhahaha. ;D
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I'm sure we could, and it may even be more funny for us to watch. Has anybody seen Brotherhood 2.0? It's on youtube, and it's got some interesting little punishments that may work.....Some of them, as funny as they are to watch, would be too painful for this...like chin-waxing.
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*peaks in with wary eyes*
Hey guys. What happens? What goes on? Anything interesting at all?
No?
Ok.
I know you guys think that i'm welshing on the bet, but thats not it. Not really.
You see i sold my laptop in order to have enough money for college expenses. I swear. And its a bit diffuclt to record yourself eating a hat in the library computar lab...
Their macs are so slow!
Anyway, i figure i'll just wait until i visit home...
Can you guys muster up the patience? Can you do that for me? I dying man's last request?
Oh, and i will cut it up in peices. Atleast thats what i think i'll do. As for the deep fried suggestion--hats are fattening enough.
If you guys can agree to another punishment...
I'm not sure if i'd agree. But things are looking pretty bleak right now. I'm a man with nothin' to lose!
I say, bring on the Brotherhood 2.0! Bring It!
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I say, bring on the Brotherhood 2.0! Bring It!
Are you sure? There's some evil things on there--things I'm not sure you would like doing. Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLM5ECY07nw
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*peaks in with wary eyes*
Hey guys. What happens? What goes on? Anything interesting at all?
No?
Ok.
I know you guys think that i'm welshing on the bet, but thats not it. Not really.
You see i sold my laptop in order to have enough money for college expenses. I swear. And its a bit diffuclt to record yourself eating a hat in the library computar lab...
Their macs are so slow!
Anyway, i figure i'll just wait until i visit home...
Can you guys muster up the patience? Can you do that for me? I dying man's last request?
Oh, and i will cut it up in peices. Atleast thats what i think i'll do. As for the deep fried suggestion--hats are fattening enough.
If you guys can agree to another punishment...
I'm not sure if i'd agree. But things are looking pretty bleak right now. I'm a man with nothin' to lose!
I say, bring on the Brotherhood 2.0! Bring It!
I can attest to the fact that he doesn't have a computer. He almost never gets on IMs anymore.
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By the way chaos, my thumb down, from way before, meant guilty, sorry I wasn't more clear, I said still though, in referemce to my previous post, which says guilty.
Now is there a specific type hat it has to be, could it prehaps be a paper hat?
My only stipulations, if i'm entitled to one or two, would be that whatever hat you eat, it must be yours, seeing as how you said you'd eat your hat, and it must be wearable, no cake hats (unless of course you wanted to wear it first, it would have to be well made).