Timewaster's Guide Archive
Games => Role-Playing Games => Topic started by: Dangerbutton on October 08, 2008, 03:53:21 PM
-
Does anybody know if there has ever been an RPG that used cards in the CCG fashion? I think it would be cool.
-
The World of Warcraft CCG is essentially a roleplaying game.
-
Really? How so? Seemed like just another card game to me.
-
It like any CCG is as much and RPG as you want to make it. You can pretend to be your character as much as you like just like in Magic you can pretend to be a Planeswalker throwing spells around.
As far as I know there hasn't been a full on RPG CCG though there are a couple of games that use regular playing cards as a resolution mechanic.
-
Munchkin is a bonafied CCG RPG. Of course, it's also a parody.
-
Also not at all.
Munchkin is neither a CCG nor an RPG. While the game does have expansions it is really just a card game. There are no real roleplaying elements to it.
-
Munchkin is not a CCG, you're right, though it is a card game. But it's certainly an RPG as much as RPG videogames are RPGs.
-
But a video game RPG is very different from a PnP RPG and since this is not the video games forum why would it matter if it is like a video game?
I have played Munchkin plenty of times and never seen any RPG elements (not even the kind from a VGRPG), it is a card game where the main idea is to mess with your friends. It is not however a game where you spend any time developing the personality of your character, distinct from yourself. In Munchkin (at least in my experience) you are still you whereas in D&D (for example) you take on the role of a character who is distinct from yourself, and interact with other people and the environment from the perspective of that character.
Munchkin is a parody of a lot of the tropes of RPGs but it doesn't actually require or even encourage any actual roleplaying. I might even go so far as to say that actual roleplaying is actively discouraged in Munchkin, especially once you start mixing games together.
-
D&D frequently does not encourage any actual RPing—and this was especially true of early incarnations. However, the game goes out of its way to allow people to do everything on a board or table and just play what is essentially a hypercomplicated boardgame, if they so wish.
Munchkin is somewhat like that, but way simpler. You have all of the traditional elements of an RPG: Race, class, trappings, levels, etc. You're certainly welcome to RP in Munchkin, too, though it's not necessary to the game.
-
It seems then that the wall we are running up against is our definitions of an RPG. To my mind in order to be classified as an RPG the game does indeed require an inherent element of roleplaying. Also I think that an RPG has a big difference from games like Munchkin in that it is a cooperative experience, I do not play D&D attempting to beat my friends, quite the opposite in fact. No one wins at D&D, the game is played for the journey, not to try and be the victor. I think also that a pen and paper RPG needs to encourage creative problem solving and the option of solving encounters through non-combative methods.
Now in my experience Munchkin assumes first off that everything you do is combative but since that is an element of the parody I'll let that one slide. The place where, for me Munchkin fails to be classified as an RPG is the fact that creativity is neither rewarded nor encouraged. If my level is higher than that of the random card I flipped then I win, at the end of the day Munchkin really is closer to a game like War then it is an RPG.
Munchkin, as I have said does not encourage you to take on the actual role of the character you are playing any more then another card game does. Magic's original conceit was that you played as a might Planeswalker who could pull creatures through the void to fight for you, WoW CCG lets you choose a hero who you use to duel and call allies to fight beside, even a game like Monopoly puts you in the role of a business tycoon attempting to achieve that very monopoly and crush your oponents. If you consider those RPGs then I suppose you could consider Munchkin one as well, to me though those are simply card and board games.
sorry if that got a little muddled, haven't had any coffee yet.
-
See, but no one goes around and argues that Neverwinter Nights isn't an RPG, and all of the arguments you can level against Munchkin can be leveled against NWN. Yes, you have kinds of RPGs that you prefer, but not everyone shares your elitism on the matter. Monty Hauls are famous in the RPG world (though treated with some disdain, few would argue that they can't be part of an RPG).
-
NWN is not relevent to this discussion since we are talking about a pen and paper RPG here and still not in the video games forum. Video game RPGs remain a very different animal to a tabletop game so I am not sure why you insist on bringing them up.
Monty Hall games are a reality with gaming but I, and most RPG players that I know would argue that they are not a roleplaying experience. They simply happen to use the RPG's combat rules, and really are more like a card or board game then they are like an RPG.
My argument remains that Munchkin is not an RPG because it is neither a creative nor co-operative experience. Munchkin involves each player attempting to beat, by any means necessary your friends. Whereas RPGs involve getting together with your friends to overcome a series of challenges presented for you by your GM. Even the relationship with the GM in RPGs though is not a confrontational one, the GM provides the setting and scene with which the players interact but is not the enemy. RPGs are a co-operative storytelling experience, the goal of the game is to create an exciting and interesting experience for everyone involved.
Perhaps you should give us your definition of an RPG since apparently wanting to have RPGs with RP is something you consider elitist.
-
But we're not talking about "Pen & Paper" RPG's. We're talking about a CCG, while, like a VG, is a very different beast than your traditional RPG.
If you say that Mony Haul experiences are "more likey a card... game", it might suggest that a CCG RPG would be a lot more like a CRPG than a traditional one, especially given the nature of "collectable" card games.
RPG's don't need to be creative or cooperative experiences, though it's certainly nice if they are. GURPS, for example, gave in their core rulebook a sample adventure which involved only one PC (it would have taken a lot of work to modify it to allow for multipler players), and only a limited degree of creativity. It was introductory, but the fact that it was not cooperative, etc., didn't seem to phase the GURPS folks.
For a definition, how's this?:
"A type of game, played either with pencil and paper, on a computer, or through another medium, in which the player(s) assume the role of a character. Gameplay is usually determined in part by statistics attached to each character and frequently influenced by a character class."
-
If you check the first post the question was is their an RPG that uses a CCG style mechanic. Now as this was posted in neither the Video Games or CCG forum I was under the impression that the OP wanted an RPG of the pen and paper variety that used a CCG mechanic as a conflict resolution system. Perhaps I was wrong.
As to your second point I believe, again I may be mistaken, that using a CCG mechanic for conflict resolution does not necessarily make the game a different animal then an RPG. In fact a CCG reolution may well serve as a less random way of handling the conflict. In most RPGs the element of randomness is supplied by dice, playing cards, etc. But if you used a CCG, with a clear winner and loser after the game to determine the victor of the RPGs conflict then it adds a level of skill to the conflict itself instead of leaving it purely in the realm of chance.
In your GURPS example of the single player tutorial (for lack of a better word) was it a single player and no GM? To my mind if there is a GM as well as even one player then the story-telling is co-operative, though I must admit when it comes to gaming I tend to follow the Narativist school anyway.
I do like your definition, it was clearly well thought out. Personally I do not consider video game RPGs to be in the same vein as tabletop RPGs but that may well be a personal bias. I do enjoy video games of all types but find them to be more of a cinematic experience or like reading a book then I consider them to be a Roleplaying experience.
-
A note for the OP, would you use the CCG resolution mechanic to represent a full combat? If you used a game like MtG for example you could easily simulate a wizards duel but it makes a melee a little harder to resolve. How would you handle additional combatants joining the combat? How would you use a CCG to handle disarming traps and similar non-combat encounters?
It is an interesting idea, I doubt though that most CCGs currently on the market are adapatable enough to handle the resolution of every possible situation. I also wonder since most CCGs tend to take a long time to play just how much time for the actual RPG would be left. There are games that use things like Rock, Paper, Scissors as the resolution mechanic and I know that this is a concept that is writ large across a number of CCGs so if you wanted to create one this might be the place to start.
-
To be honest, my definition was a slightly generalized version of the definition over at Wiktionary.
And the GURPS scenario was one that was designed to be GM-optional.
-
That GURPS scenario sounds really interesting to me. I don't think I have ever played an RPG that was GM optional, that tends to be why I think of them as a co-operative experience. One person sets the scene and the other(s) act within it.
Do you remember which version of the GURPS rules that was in?
-
No idea, but I think it was published in 1995.
-
You know, I've never thought of Roleplaying while I play MtG. However, there was one time when we over-dramatically reacted to every card we played, as though we were in an episode of Yu Gi Oh. It didn't last. We annoyed ourselves too soon.
-
In response to the idea that RPG's are required to be cooperational, Paranoia is very much so not cooperational, since the idea of the game revolves around you beating the other players, and it's PnP RPG, with character sheets, exp points, mutant powers, a skill system, etc. In fact, it even encourages the GM to work against players. It's not a very SERIOUS RPG, but it can create some fun times, that's for sure.
You know, I've never thought of Roleplaying while I play MtG. However, there was one time when we over-dramatically reacted to every card we played, as though we were in an episode of Yu Gi Oh. It didn't last. We annoyed ourselves too soon.
me and my friends always wanted to film a video of like 3 people playing magic, and one dude is dressed in an anime fashion, with the yu-gi-oh card-deck toy thingy, and the other two dressed normal, and have the normal dressed ones play casually with the dude dressed up yelling out his attacks and being generally melodramatic.
-
GURPS 8) 4th edition has a combat card system
D@D 4th ::) edition, battles can easily be played with cards the caracter builder prints out all of your abilities in card form