Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Elmandr on September 19, 2008, 02:37:43 AM
-
Quote from: Mistborn: The Final Empire; Epigraph for Chapter 29
29 – The others all think I should have had Kwaan executed for betraying me. To tell the truth, I’d probably kill him this moment if I knew where he’d gone. At the time, however, I just couldn’t do it.
The man had become like a father to me. To this day, I don’t know why he suddenly decided that I wasn’t the Hero. Why did he turn against me, denouncing me to the entire Conclave of Worldbringers?
Would he rather that the Deepness win ? Surely, even if I’m not the right one – as Kwaan now claims – my presence at the Well of Ascension couldn’t possibly be worse than what will happen if the Deepness continues to destroy the land.
We later learn that Kwaan ran to the Inquistor stronghold, where Sazed finds his etching...
Ok, what how are Kwaan and the Inquistors related?
He says that the only things that can be trusted are written in metal. He says that whatever was changing the prophecy has also changed the records in the keepers' mind....
Inquistors have metal jammed in there heads...
Is there a connection? or am i just mixing things?
-
The issue is that the epigraph seems to be from Alendis point of view. We know that Alendi dies and Rashek takes the power of the WoA. So what does Rashek have to do with it is also part of the question. I mean Alendi sounds like he wants Kwaan dead but then why would Rashek I mean Kwaan was the one who sent Rashek with Alendi right so whats the deal? I dont know I feel that maybe Kwaan was the first Inquisitor, the original made that way by Rashek after his ascention. For reasons yet unknown. I mean it kinda fits the storyline timeline. By the time Kwaan gets to this place he is inscribing the metal Rashek takes the power. Then he transforms Kwaan into an inquisitor right were he was and thus the place of the inscription became an Inquisitor stronghold.
Just speculation.
-
The location of the steel plate does not necessarily mean Kwaan was either at the Conventical of Seran nor had anything to do with Inquisitors. That's like saying Alendi was at Kedrick Shaw because the logbook was.
-
It is a little harder to move a huge steel plate out of a cave than to move a logbook though. And if you think about it, it makes sense that Kwann would be hiding either in or around then-Terris, making it close enough to Luthadel to not be destroyed. (And for the record, Alendi was at Kredik Shaw, but because the Well of Ascension is there, not because of the logbook.)
-
oooohh BURN. No not really but it sounded nice anyway. I wasn't saying that's what happenend I just think its an interesting possability.
-
Yes, you are right, it's very hard to move a steel plate when neither Inquisitors, Allomancers or Feruchemists have any ability to help them lift heavy things.
-
I just assumed that Rashek had the Conventical built around the place where the steel plate was.
-
I don't know, I just got the impression that the steel plate was kept in the cave. Something about how the architecture was so different from the rest of the Conventical. I mean, we know Kwaan wrote the steel plate in a cold cave, and when he wrote it that place would have been a cold cave. I see no reason for it to be moved, and several implications of it staying there.
-
I don't know, I just got the impression that the steel plate was kept in the cave. Something about how the architecture was so different from the rest of the Conventical. I mean, we know Kwaan wrote the steel plate in a cold cave, and when he wrote it that place would have been a cold cave. I see no reason for it to be moved, and several implications of it staying there.
Which is why I've always just thought what Ookla thought. There doesn't have to be a connection to the Inquisitors.
-
I don't know, I just got the impression that the steel plate was kept in the cave. Something about how the architecture was so different from the rest of the Conventical. I mean, we know Kwaan wrote the steel plate in a cold cave, and when he wrote it that place would have been a cold cave. I see no reason for it to be moved, and several implications of it staying there.
Which is why I've always just thought what Ookla thought. There doesn't have to be a connection to the Inquisitors.
Always a skeptic...lol.
Can you think of any other reason for the Inquistors to have metal spikes?
I thought that TLR, after returning from the mountain, worried--and rightfully so--about the Ruin, and so when he found out about Kwaan's theory of metal and how it cannot be corrupted, he decided to create beings according to so...
Kwaan could be the designer, or very possibly the first inquistor.
-
I thought ruin was controlling the Inquistors. As for kwaan being the designer i think its a good theory. I dont know why but i never got the impression that TRL was a super genius back when he was only like 30 years old. I some how thought he had help developing all the stuff he did. He could have gotten a lot smarter over his 1000 year lifespan though
-
I thought ruin was controlling the Inquistors. As for kwaan being the designer i think its a good theory. I dont know why but i never got the impression that TRL was a super genius back when he was only like 30 years old. I some how thought he had help developing all the stuff he did. He could have gotten a lot smarter over his 1000 year lifespan though
True, he must have grown wiser in the span of this 1000+ year life span but the Inquistors have been awhile...so who knows how old he was when they were created.
-
I just assumed that Rashek had the Conventical built around the place where the steel plate was.
Yeah, that was my assumption as well. I was merely pointing out that the location of the slate does not necessarily suggest Kwaan had anything to do with Inquisitors. I could build a museum around some dinosaur bones and that doesn't mean they fled to my museum and became curators. Sure, there's always the possibility but I find that dinosaurs are rather useless.
-
I thought that TLR, after returning from the mountain, worried--and rightfully so--about the Ruin, and so when he found out about Kwaan's theory of metal and how it cannot be corrupted, he decided to create beings according to so...
Not quite following, considering that Ruin is controlling them because of the metal.
-
I just assumed that Rashek had the Conventical built around the place where the steel plate was.
Yeah, that was my assumption as well. I was merely pointing out that the location of the slate does not necessarily suggest Kwaan had anything to do with Inquisitors. I could build a museum around some dinosaur bones and that doesn't mean they fled to my museum and became curators. Sure, there's always the possibility but I find that dinosaurs are rather useless.
SO you would rather believe that Kwaan found a random open place, where there happened to be a slate of metal on a wall of earth, wrote his prophecy there...and then there was a stronghold? If i was going to write something as powerful as that i would be sure to find a secure, and safe place to hide it.
-
SO you would rather believe that Kwaan found a random open place, where there happened to be a slate of metal on a wall of earth, wrote his prophecy there...and then there was a stronghold? If i was going to write something as powerful as that i would be sure to find a secure, and safe place to hide it.
So you would rather believe that Kwaan was the first inquisitor because his steel plate was found in their stronghold? Is it possible that they found it in a cave and rather than expose it to the elements which would surely rust it out in over 1000 years, they just built a stronghold around it? Sometimes the most secure location is the one that no one knows about; kind of like these caves on the shores of the dead sea.
-
SO you would rather believe that Kwaan found a random open place, where there happened to be a slate of metal on a wall of earth, wrote his prophecy there...and then there was a stronghold? If i was going to write something as powerful as that i would be sure to find a secure, and safe place to hide it.
So you would rather believe that Kwaan was the first inquisitor because his steel plate was found in their stronghold? Is it possible that they found it in a cave and rather than expose it to the elements which would surely rust it out in over 1000 years, they just built a stronghold around it? Sometimes the most secure location is the one that no one knows about; kind of like these caves on the shores of the dead sea.
Explain then, since you are so thoroughly convinced that Kwaan wasn't the start of the Inquistors, what was?
P.S I'm not commited to anything, had you agreed with the theory i would have strayed from it--it helps to find the truth. ;D.
-
Here's the thing, If the inquisitors lets say just found this steel plate in the middle of no where why would they build something around it to protect it. This plate had a connection to TLR and TLR had no reason to leave it there at all why not just destroy it? What is the importance of such a slab that a stronghold needs to be built? idk, I just feel that there is evidence enough to suggest a connection of some sort between Kwaan and the Inquisitors.
-
Here's the thing, If the inquisitors lets say just found this steel plate in the middle of no where why would they build something around it to protect it. This plate had a connection to TLR and TLR had no reason to leave it there at all why not just destroy it? What is the importance of such a slab that a stronghold needs to be built? idk, I just feel that there is evidence enough to suggest a connection of some sort between Kwaan and the Inquisitors.
I suspect the same, though suspicion is not enough to go on--despite what vin might say. Kwaan was around before the Inquistors. so it is very likely that he designed them, became one, or the former. Choose the one or two, or another theory that you like. I only ask that you bring evidence and or reasoning to back your case.
State facts; quotes, salvaged clues spread throughout the epic. Prove your case, or atleast justify your argument.
-
At this point its pure speculation, I have found that a lot of the good theorizing that goes on here is often brought out by pure and simple speculation. Once a good theory is formed then it is time to go investigate. Why would I spend the time looking into it if I posted an idea and someone told me I was "wrong and here's why" right off the bat. I like to test ideas off of the other posters first. Plus that gives others the chance to think about the idea and investigate for themselves giving alternate perspectives on the same idea.
-
I only ask that you bring evidence and or reasoning to back your case.
I have seen several of your theories and the problem is that they often leave out more facts than they present.
Perhaps Inquisitors were around longer than we think. Alendi wore the piercings of the hero, which sounds alot like an Inquisitor. The only supporting evidence that you have that Kwaan has any sort of ties to the Inquisitors is that his plate was at their stronghold. Their entire stronghold was built of steel plates, does that mean that it's just one big diary, that anyone can go there and etch their life's journey on it's walls?
I said it is just as likely that the plates were just found and moved there, which doesn't require any evidence but I provided some anyway. The dead sea scrolls are some of the most important writingswe have today and it was just found in a cave. Joseph Smith reportedly found the golden plates, the cornerstone of the Mormon religion, in a buried box.
-
I agree that there is enough evidence to prove this theory either way.
-
At this point its pure speculation, I have found that a lot of the good theorizing that goes on here is often brought out by pure and simple speculation. Once a good theory is formed then it is time to go investigate. Why would I spend the time looking into it if I posted an idea and someone told me I was "wrong and here's why" right off the bat. I like to test ideas off of the other posters first. Plus that gives others the chance to think about the idea and investigate for themselves giving alternate perspectives on the same idea.
Ehm. i didn't say you were wrong, i just find it difficult to accept a rejection to a theory unless the reject or or debater presented some sort of explanation.
From what i understand, you want to counter for the sake of? huh? i don't mean to offend you. Really. I'm all for hearing all kinds of theories, and though it may not seem so but i have been researching everything you and i have discussed in this and other threads. When you can prove otherwise or i can find reason to stray from this theory, i will update and present it.
when people are speculating you need to test their theories with the straight forward question, the obvious. If it can survive that, then it can be deem meritable. Other wise its just another thought.
Listen to yourself. You say their just speculation but defend them like their religion. I don't deny being wrong when i am so. Really. However, i expect you and myself to present topics and theories that you've at least thought some about--it helps to wash out all the unnecessary posts.
-
Ahh I see. I don't take offense, trust me this is what these forums are for. I don't want to counter your idea for the sake of countering it. I only do so because I was stating what I think. The thing about you researching and then developing a theory is good. I enjoy it when a poster has an informed decision. A lot of my posts and ideas are based off of ideas and past posts. Your right, a lot of the time I don't provide back up to my ideas but does it make it wrong to post my ideas. All im doing is letting you know what I think and you can take it for what it is. I didn't say you were wrong I just said I don't think your right and this is what I think. Any further questions should be taken to PM so we can spare this thread and others from filling with trash. Nothing against you, you do work on your ideas, I on the other hand do less re-reading and more straight theorising from what I think I know so in reality I have more of a chance of being wrong than you.
-
I don't know, I just got the impression that the steel plate was kept in the cave. Something about how the architecture was so different from the rest of the Conventical. I mean, we know Kwaan wrote the steel plate in a cold cave, and when he wrote it that place would have been a cold cave. I see no reason for it to be moved, and several implications of it staying there.
Which is why I've always just thought what Ookla thought. There doesn't have to be a connection to the Inquisitors.
Always a skeptic...lol.
Can you think of any other reason for the Inquistors to have metal spikes?
I thought that TLR, after returning from the mountain, worried--and rightfully so--about the Ruin, and so when he found out about Kwaan's theory of metal and how it cannot be corrupted, he decided to create beings according to so...
Kwaan could be the designer, or very possibly the first inquistor.
This quote, I believe, is the most important one in the topic.
Inquisitors have metal spikes, naturally, because that's how Hemalurgy operates. However... this may not be what elmandr means here, but if you have a steel plate by your uncle who told you that the Hero of Ages wasn't really the Hero and that he needed to be killed, then you build a temple around the steel plate (or put the steel plate in a temple, whatever. Not important) and said steel plate "I write these words in steel, for anything not set in metal cannot be trusted."
Then we have the "Steel Ministry", "Steel Inquisitors". Those first words on the steel plate sound a lot like a basis for a religion. Kwaan may not necessarily be an Inquisitor, but the point is that the steel plate provided Rashek a motivation for his religion, being obsessed with metals and steel. I don't know, maybe he thought it would preserve truth better that way. Maybe the Ministry structures are actually made of metal for this end, but I could be misremembering. Before MB3 comes out, I will do my third read-through of MB1 and 2 to make sure everything is right in my head.
-
I think the ministry canticle was built around that steel etching because it contained the truth. And if you control the truth, you'll want to keep it locked away. But it's still important to know the truth, even if you're the one misleading everyone else. Know the rules so you can break them. That kind of thing.
That's my take on it.
-
I think the ministry canticle was built around that steel etching because it contained the truth. And if you control the truth, you'll want to keep it locked away. But it's still important to know the truth, even if you're the one misleading everyone else. Know the rules so you can break them. That kind of thing.
That's my take on it.
I think that's a fair assumption and the most plausible with what little information we do know.
-
Well, there is the slight issue of the steel plates being on display. You'd think they'd hide it by keeping it in some vault or something, rather than putting it up for people to see. And yes, while this was an Inquisitor stronghold, they still had servants around...
-
they still had servants around...
Did they actually have servants or did they capture a bunch of skaa?
-
I think that the steel plates were only something Inquisitors were allowed to know about and any servants they had were live in so as not to blab about anything they saw there.
-
they still had servants around...
Did they actually have servants or did they capture a bunch of skaa?
I think they were skaa, and i think that skaa can't read, so really they might have seen the etching but never could understand what it was they were looking at.
Quote from: elmandr1 on Yesterday at 09:48:21 PM
Quote from: Andrew the Great on Yesterday at 08:58:41 PM
Quote from: Czanos on Yesterday at 08:57:38 PM
I don't know, I just got the impression that the steel plate was kept in the cave. Something about how the architecture was so different from the rest of the Conventical. I mean, we know Kwaan wrote the steel plate in a cold cave, and when he wrote it that place would have been a cold cave. I see no reason for it to be moved, and several implications of it staying there.
Which is why I've always just thought what Ookla thought. There doesn't have to be a connection to the Inquisitors.
Always a skeptic...lol.
Can you think of any other reason for the Inquistors to have metal spikes?
I thought that TLR, after returning from the mountain, worried--and rightfully so--about the Ruin, and so when he found out about Kwaan's theory of metal and how it cannot be corrupted, he decided to create beings according to so...
Kwaan could be the designer, or very possibly the first inquistor.
This quote, I believe, is the most important one in the topic.
Inquisitors have metal spikes, naturally, because that's how Hemalurgy operates. However... this may not be what elmandr means here, but if you have a steel plate by your uncle who told you that the Hero of Ages wasn't really the Hero and that he needed to be killed, then you build a temple around the steel plate (or put the steel plate in a temple, whatever. Not important) and said steel plate "I write these words in steel, for anything not set in metal cannot be trusted."
Then we have the "Steel Ministry", "Steel Inquisitors". Those first words on the steel plate sound a lot like a basis for a religion. Kwaan may not necessarily be an Inquisitor, but the point is that the steel plate provided Rashek a motivation for his religion, being obsessed with metals and steel. I don't know, maybe he thought it would preserve truth better that way. Maybe the Ministry structures are actually made of metal for this end, but I could be misremembering. Before MB3 comes out, I will do my third read-through of MB1 and 2 to make sure everything is right in my head.
True, so we continue. To answer your question we must essentially answer what it was the inquistors actually did for TLR, and even the obligators. Figuring this out will ultimately lead to the answer of why they were made, and thus there origin.
-
Besides, I think having the steel etching in the back of the steel canticle is basically as good as having it in a vault. Probably better. It'd be suicide to try and sneak in there; the only reason Marsh and Sazed got in was because it was deserted.
-
Besides, I think having the steel etching in the back of the steel canticle is basically as good as having it in a vault. Probably better. It'd be suicide to try and sneak in there; the only reason Marsh and Sazed got in was because it was deserted.
You make a good point. Why have the deserted the Stronghold? Was it because they suspect a great change to occur, or was it because they never really wanted to stay there--only doing to to abide by TLR's commands.
The latter would suggest that the etchings meant nothing to the Inquistors but to TLR. Which switches up the role of Kwaan with the Inquistors some--but ut essentially stays the same.
-
Also, the etching was in the ancient Terris language. Very, very few people could even read it, and Sazed was one of them.
-
Also, the etching was in the ancient Terris language. Very, very few people could even read it, and Sazed was one of them.
So it's very likely that the current Inqs couldn't even read it, but the original ones could. Maybe...
Who were the original Inquisitors? If allomancy was given to the people who helped him, who would he make to effectively police these "friends?"
-
I would guess that the choice was not that significant. I mean if TLR had use of hermology then he probably had the ability to control the inquisitors mush like Ruin. This isn't saying that he didn't hand pick the original inquisitors for reason only he would know but I'm just saying it might not have ment too much who he picked.
-
"Hemalurgy", GreenMonsta. Hemalurgy is the right term :P
-
If TLR could control the Inquisitors like Ruin, then Marsh wouldn't have even been able to try to kill him, or rebel at all.
-
If TLR could control the Inquisitors like Ruin, then Marsh wouldn't have even been able to try to kill him, or rebel at all.
I don't think so, i think that Marsh is in a "Man Vs himself" state, where he is having an eternal struggle between the good within him vs the Ruin that is holding him.
I do think that TLR could control the Inquistors with the power he bore, but since the Ruin now is the holder of the power...
Who sent Rashek to kill or send Alendi astray on the initial trip to the mountain top...I think that guy would be somebody he would trust and.
Another thing.
If Kwaan fled from the Terris people after denouncing Alendi, where did he run to?
Also, after he found out that the religion that he devoutly followed before had been corrupted. i would imagine that he commited himself to rewriting the truth. Thus the Inquistor religion was born.
-
Hem. . . al . . . ur. . . Ahh forget it. I don' think i'll remember anyway.
-
Here's something I've been wondering: Why didn't Ruin re-toggle Sazed's papers? Because the etchings were different from the steel plates, Sazed was able to determine that Ruin could modify documents not in metal. You'd think that either Ruin would switch it back to confuse Sazed/make him think the problem was on his end. Perhaps Ruin has a limit to what it can do/how frequently it can rewrite things.
-
Oh I'm sure there are limitations. But I thought that at the end of the second book when Sazed goes back to the inquisitors palace he realized that the tablet did change. There was more writing then there was the first time. idk I guess I'll have to re-read that part.
-
He realizes that the writing on the plate was different than what he had in his metal mind and on the rubbing. Not quite the same....
-
He realizes that the writing on the plate was different than what he had in his metal mind and on the rubbing. Not quite the same....
I thought that Kwaan says something about the Ruin being able to change information on paper as well as those stored in the metal minds??? I should go back and make sure though.
However, Does hemulurgy(i think is spelled it wrong) grant the person who undergoes it allomantic powers? It does, i mean it must. Marsh confirms that. So hemulurgy, that metal Vin finds in the end of the second book, and TLR, those are the three ways...
The more i look into this, the easier it is to believe that Allomancy was around before TLR's time...
Kwaan could have hemulurged himself(lol im ravaging the word)in fear of the Ruin altering what he knew...
-
I thought that Kwaan says something about the Ruin being able to change information on paper as well as those stored in the metal minds??? I should go back and make sure though.
Ruin can change information on paper, as well as in metalminds. This is why the steel plate remains the same, while the rubbing (and metalmind rubbing) and the translations are changed.
However, Does hemulurgy(i think is spelled it wrong) grant the person who undergoes it allomantic powers? It does, i mean it must. Marsh confirms that. So hemulurgy, that metal Vin finds in the end of the second book, and TLR, those are the three ways...
Where'd you get the idea that it must grant allomantic abilities? It's just as plausible that the Inquisitors eat Elend's metal and get allomancy from there. We do, however, know that inquisitors do use allomancy.
And it's hemalurgy. So you were close, but not quite.
Kwaan could have hemulurged himself(lol im ravaging the word)in fear of the Ruin altering what he knew...
The word you are looking for here is "hemalurgified." Also, he wouldn't have done that unless he thought it would prevent Ruin from altering what he knew. There are two options here. Either a) hemalurgy was already around, in which case Kwaan would likely know that becoming a hemalurgist wouldn't help him, or b) hemalurgy wasn't already around, and Kwaan wouldn't know enough about it to risk it unless he was desperate and had some idea of what it might do (or thought he did). But it's a good thought.
-
I thought that Kwaan says something about the Ruin being able to change information on paper as well as those stored in the metal minds??? I should go back and make sure though.
Ruin can change information on paper, as well as in metalminds. This is why the steel plate remains the same, while the rubbing (and metalmind rubbing) and the translations are changed.
However, Does hemulurgy(i think is spelled it wrong) grant the person who undergoes it allomantic powers? It does, i mean it must. Marsh confirms that. So hemulurgy, that metal Vin finds in the end of the second book, and TLR, those are the three ways...
Where'd you get the idea that it must grant allomantic abilities? It's just as plausible that the Inquisitors eat Elend's metal and get allomancy from there. We do, however, know that inquisitors do use allomancy.
And it's hemalurgy. So you were close, but not quite.
Kwaan could have hemulurged himself(lol im ravaging the word)in fear of the Ruin altering what he knew...
The word you are looking for here is "hemalurgified." Also, he wouldn't have done that unless he thought it would prevent Ruin from altering what he knew. There are two options here. Either a) hemalurgy was already around, in which case Kwaan would likely know that becoming a hemalurgist wouldn't help him, or b) hemalurgy wasn't already around, and Kwaan wouldn't know enough about it to risk it unless he was desperate and had some idea of what it might do (or thought he did). But it's a good thought.
Whether Hemalurgy actually grants Allomantic powers is in question, but I'm with Andrew on this one (or he agrees with me on this point. I forget which one of us spearheads a particular theory, considering they almost invariably are identical). However, it is very likely that Inquisitors use Allomancy, and not just some Hemalurgical thing that grants them an imitation power of Allomancy.
Andrew, you need to get on MSN sometime so we can discuss how to refine the Hemalurgy theory into a final-ish form before MB3 comes out. It's just something we need to do :P
----
Kwaan could have turned into an Inquisitor after the Ascension. After all, we really don't know what happened with him.
-
Andrew, you need to get on MSN sometime so we can discuss how to refine the Hemalurgy theory into a final-ish form before MB3 comes out. It's just something we need to do.
Sorry, I don't get on all that often. I'll try to hop on tomorrow night around 8-ish. But yes, that definitely needs to happen.
-
You are just a slacker that way. I'm on virtually all the time. So, if anyone wants to IM me, they can! I don't bite! Much! I have AIM, YIM, and MSN, so whichever client you use, I'm on it. Just log on and say hi. All of them are just "chaos2651" (the MSN one is "[email protected]"), so if you can remember my handle at all, you immediately know all my IM names.
Honestly, there's no reason why you can't just say hi to me other than if you never IM. I'll IM with anyone virtually any time, even if I'm working on something. I like distractions.
-
I believe it's mentioned that Inquisitors have shorter life spans... Just a note. Of thought.
-
I believe it's mentioned that Inquisitors have shorter life spans... Just a note. Of thought.
Really? Is that an annotation or in-text reference?
-
I actually seem to remember it too, as an in-text reference. I'll see if I can find it.
-
I actually seem to remember it too, as an in-text reference. I'll see if I can find it.
Well, you don't have to. Before October 14th I'm doing a reread of MB1 and 2. I should be able to find it in there.
-
Ahh, but you see... Like you, I enjoy being distracted from the things I should be doing. So it's much more fun to go looking for references than to do US History.
-
Ummm, I didn't get that at all. I thought their lives were extended quite a bit.
-
I was thinking the same as darxbane - that Inquisitors live longer than normal people. I guess someone needs to find an actual reference, so we can settle this.