Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Peter Ahlstrom on August 31, 2008, 12:23:28 AM
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Check it out: http://www.bic-media.com/dmrs/widget.do?skin=blue&isbn=9783453524156
Translates as "Alcatraz and the Parchment of Death." That's a pretty good title too (for book 2).
Oh, cool, page 4 says "Translated from Americanese."
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But... but... but... how come they get number two now?! How come people across the pond get the book before us here in america get it when HE'S FROM THE US?!
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It doesn't come out until November there, if you check the copyright date, so it's the same as the US. They're just previewing it a little ahead of time.
I don't even see book 2 listed on Scholastic's website though. Odd.
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Ah... dang it, I wish I could read... german? Russian? Whatever that is.
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Yes, German.
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lol i would've guessed portuguese. Not because i know a word of Portuguese but because i thought it looked similar to Spanish :P
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A literal translation would be "and THAT" But that doesn't make sense in English. xP
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Harry Potter book 7 is Harry Potter und die Heiligtümer des Todes. Coincidence?
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In HP the 'die' is the article for 'the' and in Al the 'das' is that.
I prefer Japanese. No articles to worry about. xP
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Harry Potter book 7 is Harry Potter und die Heiligtümer des Todes. Coincidence?
The similarities come because they both talk about death, which is, in German, "Der Tod". The "der" is simply "the", but in German, it indicates that the noun is masculine.
When you make it possessive, "of Death" becomes "des Todes", where "des" is the genitive (in practice, think possessive) form of "the" for nouns with masculine gender. It could also be translated as "of the death" except that we don't typically say "The death", unlike German.
The "und" is simply "and". So because both titles have "[Name] and the [item] of death" (in German, at least), there are going to be similarities between their titles. But most of the similarities are simply grammatical necessities in German. The content is in the blanks that are, in fact, different.
And yes, the "das" in the sentence is part of the noun phrase "das Pergament", which simply means "the parchment" ("pergament" is apparently neuter). "Das" can mean "that", but not in this context.
Incidentally, all my German is old missionary German, so while I've got the grammar, the vocabulary mismatch makes trying to read it a real pain.
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I wasn't actually asking for a serious comparison, but it may be that the phrasing of Alcatraz 2's title in German was done with the Harry Potter book at least vaguely in mind. Alcatraz 2's English title is Alcatraz Versus the Scrivener's Bones.
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whoa, that is strange. Do books often change titles when they are translated?
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Yes. It's pretty common. They can even change names going from one English-speaking market to another, or from paperback to hardback within the same market.
But when a title gets translated, it's almost certain to be altered in some way. It all depends on the market.
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Yes, like HP 'alchemist's stone' became 'sorcerer's stone' in the US. I don't know why though. To me Alchemist's stone makes MUCH MORE sense.
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That's Philosopher's Stone. But anyway...
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Oh yes in England. . . it was a different language that was Alchemist's . . . I can't remember offhand what it was though. :/ Hmm.
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In HP the 'die' is the article for 'the' and in Al the 'das' is that.
I prefer Japanese. No articles to worry about. xP
Actually das, die und der können alle auf die gleiche Sache sich beziehen (there are three genders, you know), aber....
中文比日本文更好。
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I'm surprised I understood your Chinese statement, if not for my knowledge of kanji I wouldn't have understood. Whereas I don't know Chinese I could not argue the point with you. However, of the languages I have learned and used, I like Japanese the best.
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I don't like the fact that Japanese has three written scripts/alphabets and I like the fact that Chinese only has one.
I don't like the fact that Japanese (along with Korean) requires my entire language to reflect my relationship to who I am talking to. I like the fact Mandarin is generally a formal language whereas Cantonese can be formal or informal (that's a WHOLE TWO, rather than six types of speech for Korean and at least three I've picked up in Japanese - if not more).
I like the fact that your understanding of Kanji really only means you know some Chinese, since Kanji ... is ... Chinese. ;)
I also prefer the tones of Mandarin/Cantonese to the lazy sound of Japanese. :D
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Six types for Korean? I only know four... pan mal, middle mal, high mal, and scripture/prayer mal. What else is there?
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I don't like the fact that Japanese has three written scripts/alphabets and I like the fact that Chinese only has one.
I don't like the fact that Japanese (along with Korean) requires my entire language to reflect my relationship to who I am talking to. I like the fact Mandarin is generally a formal language whereas Cantonese can be formal or informal (that's a WHOLE TWO, rather than six types of speech for Korean and at least three I've picked up in Japanese - if not more).
I like the fact that your understanding of Kanji really only means you know some Chinese, since Kanji ... is ... Chinese. ;)
I also prefer the tones of Mandarin/Cantonese to the lazy sound of Japanese. :D
But hey, Japanese wins out in favor of coolness. And I don't mean only the language :D
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Six types for Korean? I only know four... pan mal, middle mal, high mal, and scripture/prayer mal. What else is there?
Let me get my book... .... ...
HA it's not in here. Let me see, I am not going to remember the names like you have mentioned, but here is what I recall:
intimate (for lovers, or possibly for parents to very young children)
family & very close friends
'normal' day to day speech with classmates and friends
formal speech when speaking to professors, teachers, upperclassmen, etc. (polite informal, actually, was what my prof. called it)
formal speech when speaking to people far higher superior than you such as a master or other authority figures ('polite formal' she said)
and the scripture/prayer
*tries to look once more* The professor said we were only going to learn two (normal & polite informal) and that's all the book mentions. I recall a sheet she handed out and identified the rest and how to use them. She also frequently went on tangents regarding the differences between each and also at times their respective words in Japanese.
Ah, the book itself says it introduces the polite formal and the polite informal, but it says nothing of the rest. I can try to find the paper with conjugation rules for the others, if you like?
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Sure, just curious for example verb endings of like one sample verb. My sister is better with Korean than me, and my three semesters of college Korean are pretty dang rusty.
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The two that are in the book:
Based on the dictionary form of "to work": 일하다
"Polite Formal" would be 일합니다
"Polite Informal" would be 일하어요
The ones our prof. actually explained that aren't in the book:
"Plain" would be 일하 (with proper noun modifier)
"Intimate" would be 일하어
Then, since my notes aren't very well done, you also tack on either ㅡ시 or ㅡ으시 (vowel or consonant) to add an honorific. *grumbles* Then there's this humble form I wrote in English but can't decide if that's part of the honorific or what.
Anyway, those are the only things I can find in my notes. I'm thinking you already know this and I am thinking of something else, perhaps. Or the professor (talking a million miles a minute in four languages) went over something that I only copied in Korean without translating it. *blush*
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Six types for Korean? I only know four... pan mal, middle mal, high mal, and scripture/prayer mal. What else is there?
Let me get my book... .... ...
HA it's not in here. Let me see, I am not going to remember the names like you have mentioned, but here is what I recall:
intimate (for lovers, or possibly for parents to very young children)
family & very close friends
'normal' day to day speech with classmates and friends
formal speech when speaking to professors, teachers, upperclassmen, etc. (polite informal, actually, was what my prof. called it)
formal speech when speaking to people far higher superior than you such as a master or other authority figures ('polite formal' she said)
and the scripture/prayer
*tries to look once more* The professor said we were only going to learn two (normal & polite informal) and that's all the book mentions. I recall a sheet she handed out and identified the rest and how to use them. She also frequently went on tangents regarding the differences between each and also at times their respective words in Japanese.
Ah, the book itself says it introduces the polite formal and the polite informal, but it says nothing of the rest. I can try to find the paper with conjugation rules for the others, if you like?
Good grief. How to the native speakers learn this stuff?
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Good grief. How to the native speakers learn this stuff?
I am not sure if this was meant to be sarcastic or what, but if you're really asking then it's really a lot easier than English.
In English you basically learn a completely different set of vocabulary - a whole sub language - to speak with your boss. A different one for friends and a different one for family. Also, there is the language for typing on the internet in a chat room and the language of writing on message boards. Sometimes one of these will overlap another, sometimes it will not. For a foreigner to learn the various formalities of English, I believe, it is very difficult when compared to the formalities in Korean & Japanese.
For Korean & Japanese it's pretty simple: change conjugation of the verb. That's the only thing that needs to be done differently to indicate who you are talking to and the relationship between them.
If you want to start getting crazy, let's discuss words relating to various parts of the family in any east Asian language. :D
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Eh, it's all just verb endings. ;) The shorter the lazier.
If you want to start getting crazy, let's discuss words relating to various parts of the family in any east Asian language. :D
Oh holy cow. Yep, that's where it gets nuts. (ETA: I did a blog entry (http://wedoitthehardway.blogspot.com/2007/01/say-uncle.html) on this once.)
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If you want to start getting crazy, let's discuss words relating to various parts of the family in any east Asian language. :D
Oh, goodness yes! I mean, I'm working on learning Japanese myself, and there's oba or obba. One letter (depending on the source) can change it from aunt to grandma. It's all insane.
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I saw a show on PBS about Korea and they said that the only people that can learn to speak it fluently are Korean babies and Mormon missionaries. My brother went there on a mission and now he and his wife (who is Korean) teach their kids and they go in and out of Korean and English and no one can understand them but their parents. Its funny to listen to though.
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I would totally buy a copy of Alcatraz in Korean. ;D I started reading Harry Potter in Korean but gave it up in disgust on the train scene when Hermione introduced herself as "Hermy-own" and the bogey-flavored bean was rendered as "a very strange-tasting one." Alas.
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I would totally buy a copy of Alcatraz in Korean. ;D I started reading Harry Potter in Korean but gave it up in disgust on the train scene when Hermione introduced herself as "Hermy-own" and the bogey-flavored bean was rendered as "a very strange-tasting one." Alas.
HAHA! Woooow! I bet bogeys do taste pretty strange, though :D What would you suggest for Hermione, though? Feel free to write in both Korean and Latin-based Korean phoneticed. :D
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Let me pull out my book here... Hermione is 헤르미온느, which is "Her-mee-own." I'd probably go with something like 허마이오니 ("Huh-ma-ee-oh-nee," near as I can Romanzie it. That looks ugly). Googling 허마이오니 does bring up a bunch of hits, so perhaps they fixed it later.
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I loathe English. I would like to learn Chinese (of some dialect) and Korean and Thai, but alas, my programming classes take up FAR too much time and I'm required to be in those classes when language classes are being taught.
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I loathe English. I would like to learn Chinese (of some dialect) and Korean and Thai, but alas, my programming classes take up FAR too much time and I'm required to be in those classes when language classes are being taught.
http://www.livemocha.com offers free courses. They work similarly to the Rosetta Stone software.
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:o I'll have to check that out. Thanks. ;)
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I loathe English.
Well then why don't you go find a Brandon Sanderson forum in Mandarin? ;)
Seriously, though, don't knock a language with far more material published than all other languages put together, and twice the vocabulary of the nearest competitor, and practically all the scientific research. It's like people who say they hate America and its government, while taking for granted all the freedoms and services their country and government provide them.
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I loathe English.
Well then why don't you go find a Brandon Sanderson forum in Mandarin? ;)
Seriously, though, don't knock a language with far more material published than all other languages put together, and twice the vocabulary of the nearest competitor, and practically all the scientific research. It's like people who say they hate America and its government, while taking for granted all the freedoms and services their country and government provide them.
Wow. Back off a step, there? America doesn't have the most people. If you want a proper analogy you should say "Don't knock China/India, they have the most people."
English is not a very aesthetic language, nor is it logical. There are a wealth of words one could use in any situation which makes it difficult to learn and confusing for those with the slightest touch of a learning disorder. Dear old "America", by the way, has one of the lowest literacy rates of an industrialized nation and we should all be ashamed of that. Just wanted to point it out.
The reason "English" has that many published works is because "English" people went on and killed a bunch of people in lands other than the UK thus extinguishing one language and making room for expansion of another. After that, America spent a lot of money making sure it was a superpower. If you think that's the right way to go, then we should all be learning Latin and.. wait for it.. Mandarin!
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I loathe English.
Well then why don't you go find a Brandon Sanderson forum in Mandarin? ;)
Seriously, though, don't knock a language with far more material published than all other languages put together, and twice the vocabulary of the nearest competitor, and practically all the scientific research. It's like people who say they hate America and its government, while taking for granted all the freedoms and services their country and government provide them.
Because I currently don't speak Mandarin. I would much prefer to speak a different language on a day to day basis. What studying I have done and what I know of other languages they are much more efficient. I won't say English doesn't accomplish what it needs to, but it is very very inefficient and muddled. 'Scientific Research?' Ninety percent of the people working in these facilities come from a different background and have to later learn English. And the language spoken has NOTHING to do with the research that is actually accomplished. Money and initiative have a great deal to do with it.
I'm just not going to talk about the other topic on this thread. I could write pages and pages on that, but it doesn't belong here.
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OK, so much for an attempt to lighten the discussion - seems I did the opposite. I apologize for causing offense.
My point was not that English is the best language, any more than the USA is the best country. I think those who say those things (especially when it's just a slogan without backup) are silly. My analogy was meant to convey that English is a very useful language to know, and that you are fortunate to be fluent in it, just as an American passport is a useful thing to have and those who have one are (in my opinion) fortunate. Clearly you find English useful as well, or you would not be using it. I think that saying "I loathe English" in English is like saying "I loathe automobiles" while driving one.
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Wow, I almost had the fotitude to avoid comenting on this. I say almost because I find it difficult to pass up.
So if im getting this right than neiana and miyabi have an issue with the english language. Ok I get it your self loathers, I know it happens from time to time and its alwayse sad. But moving on, neiana for some reason seems to have an issue with this country also something I dont understand. I mean in reality were would you be if you grew up an average person in Latin America? Ok I get it, this country has its faults as all others do and I get it again you were only attempting to correct Sarah's analogy but was it all that nessesary to rip a whole in this country. I for one dont think so.
Great we have a low literacy rate that we should be ashamed of but what are you doing about it??? Oh right I like to comment on things I have nothing to do with too. Great the english language has too many words making it difficult to learn yet the people who spoke it in the past were inteligent enouph to conqure most of the world and make them learn it. Dont start with that "they killed enouph people" crap because every country since the beggining of time has been involved in wars. Like my signature says we are all childeren of war. We dont have to like it but its the truth. Stop crying about it and either do something about it or shut up. ;D
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I know I come off as a jerk and usualy I try not to sound that way and nothing really personal against anyone who posts here but I cant help it sometimes. neiana and miyabi I like you guys your posts are alwayse intelligent if not thought about like all of us so dont take it personally, I deffend the English laguage yet I butcher it every day so I know were not all perfect.
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Lot of facts thrown out there. For reference, what other languages do you (anyone who wants to answer) speak fluently? What exactly is the United States' literacy rate?
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I for one dont speak any other languages and I couldnt tell you the literacy rate and I find it amusing. You have to love those of us who like VegasDev just like to prod the situation without becoming overly involved. I realy do like it and I wish I had done so here I just found myself on a tangent.
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it depends on how you define "literacy." A quick search on Google tells me that cia.gov marks the US literacy at 99% ;D
As for how many languages i speak I can only speak English however I am in year 3 of Spanish at my school.
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For reference, what other languages do you (anyone who wants to answer) speak fluently?
Speak fluently?
French
Speak a little?
Lingala
Have studied extensively (written form only)?
Ancient Hebrew
Koine Greek
Ancient Aramaic
Have studied very briefly (~8 weeks)?
Bahasa Indonesia
Cebuano
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I for one dont speak any other languages and I couldnt tell you the literacy rate and I find it amusing. You have to love those of us who like VegasDev just like to prod the situation without becoming overly involved. I realy do like it and I wish I had done so here I just found myself on a tangent.
Little ole me? lol.
I wouldn't call it prodding, just trying to bring more definition to the discussion. I find that many take their x for granted, preferring to view someone else's x as greener pastures. Some of my friends have complained about things like US healthcare, etc. but have never set foot outside the country let alone visit a foreign hospital.
I spent 10 years as a consultant programmer when I graduated from college and had the opportunity to experience what life had to offer in other countries. I'm not talking about a 2 week hotel trip, I'm talking 6 months to a year apartment rentals. All I need for proof is the countless women throwing themselves at me in hopes of making it to the US rather than at a hunk of man co-consultant Jean Luc (I called him Picard but he didn't know what it meant and why it was funny).
BTW, nice repertoire SarahG. Any particular reason you chose those to learn?
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I wouldn't call it prodding, just trying to bring more definition to the discussion. I find that many take their x for granted, preferring to view someone else's x as greener pastures. Some of my friends have complained about things like US healthcare, etc. but have never set foot outside the country let alone visit a foreign hospital.
Exactly! Or people who complain about the US Postal Service who have never waited 3 months in a village for a letter or package to arrive, and when (if) it does it's been opened and half the contents stolen. Or complain about construction on the highways, not realizing how few countries have anything close to our interstate system, and never having lived in a city where all streets are often closed for hours or days with no warning, at the whim of the mayor.
All I need for proof is the countless women throwing themselves at me in hopes of making it to the US.
Ditto. When I lived in Africa, I received innumerable proposals from strangers, often yelled at the truck as we were driving through the village, "You my wife!" I do not flatter myself they were instantly enamored with my looks - they just liked my passport.
BTW, nice repertoire SarahG. Any particular reason you chose those to learn?
Lingala and French - growing up in Africa. Bahasa and Cebuano - practice languages in linguistics school. Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic - for my master's degree in Biblical Languages. (At that time, I planned to be a Bible translator.)
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It seems you lovelies have misinterpreted my post. I am not an English hater (I did not say so) nor am I an America hater (I did not say so).
All I said was in response to SarahG's knee-jerk "WELL ENGLISH IS AWESOME YO!" reply. That was-I'm hoping, now that I see her list of studies- simply a mistake. Perhaps a bit overboard? I don't know how to explain what I'm hoping from that post...I guess I'm just hoping it wasn't well thought out.
I have my own thoughts on miyabi's statement. He finds Japanese to be quite amazing. Someone else mentioned Japanese winning simply because it's "cool". My personal opinion is that most people who find Japanese "cool" are people who are part of the mass of American teens that only care about Japanese because it's cool. I'm not putting anyone into this box, of course, I'm saying it's a pretty common thing to happen.
I also note that a lot of people who just love Japanese also just hate English.
I've been taking English-specific courses as long as I can remember. I've been writing and reading as long as I can remember. There's a lot to English and when you know how to use the tools it can be a beautiful thing - but woefully few people know how to use these tools.
We are on a subforum here dedicated to Brandon Sanderson, an English-writing author who knows how to use the tools. It seems most of us are capable to understand this type of thing but how many of us can produce anything on the same level? Not me and I've been writing for twenty years.
I think people need to learn their home language with fluency, whether that be Mandarin, English, French or some obscure and dying dialect of a long-forgotten language, prior to focusing more attention on a second or third.
My comment about America was, if you couldn't figure it out (sorry), supposed to be the fact it was originally bad analogy (my apologies for harshness). It was like the pot calling the kettle black when in reality the kettle is more of an ivory color. SarahG said people who hate America but have never been here .... whereas miyabi and myself quite obviously know English and have preference otherwise.
I'm still taking English Lit courses and I still intend an English degree. It's not that I hate it or have a problem with it. I know the uses and there are days when I'm quite profound with it. The large palette of words with which to draw make for interesting art, but it's not aesthetically pleasing to the eye nor the ear.
There is no perfect language but to nearly deride one for their preference is pretty failing in my opinion.
to GreenMonsta: Pointing out flaws in an argument, as I could have done without the harsh anti-everything tone, doesn't always work. If I said only one thing, she could have replied with one thing that cancels out my statement and we'd continue. If I just bluntly state a lot of issues at once then the other person has to either reply to them all, pick one or two, or ignore it completely. It gets more information out quicker for rebuttal. Strangely, it appears that now I'm the one providing equal positive thinking for English as I provided negative thinking. :D
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Alright yes, I will admit my post is rather simplistic. However I quite admire the Japanese, I find their culture to be very interesting and fascinating. Their ideas of art, honor, duty, family life, responsiblity...all of it is very alien to our own Western culture. (For most of us at least, it looks like I may be wrong in assuming most of us come from a Western upbringing) I am also interested in historical Japan, specifically 1000-1800's Japan. (although I really don't know much about it-yet)
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I'm not a self loather, I just don't like the language I was raised to speak. Even having grown up speaking it there are many of it's more delicate intricacies that I don't understand. As far as the country, I just feel that we have totally strayed from what the original founders intended for the government to be.
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As far as the country, I just feel that we have totally strayed from what the original founders intended for the government to be.
That's a strange statement considering what very little I know of you doesn't exactly interact very well with exactly what the founding fathers believed and intended for their Nation to be...
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Ha ha. Too true. But I think the government has been given/taken more power than they were supposed to have. ((We should make a topic for this discussion somewhere maybe. I dunno))
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It seems you lovelies have misinterpreted my post.
I believe you've misinterpreted mine as well, but I'll continue that discussion in a PM, since we've gone off-topic quite long enough.
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Good grief. How to the native speakers learn this stuff?
I am not sure if this was meant to be sarcastic or what, but if you're really asking then it's really a lot easier than English.
In English you basically learn a completely different set of vocabulary - a whole sub language - to speak with your boss. A different one for friends and a different one for family. Also, there is the language for typing on the internet in a chat room and the language of writing on message boards. Sometimes one of these will overlap another, sometimes it will not. For a foreigner to learn the various formalities of English, I believe, it is very difficult when compared to the formalities in Korean & Japanese.
For Korean & Japanese it's pretty simple: change conjugation of the verb. That's the only thing that needs to be done differently to indicate who you are talking to and the relationship between them.
If you want to start getting crazy, let's discuss words relating to various parts of the family in any east Asian language. :D
It was sort of sarcastic and sort of a real question. But now that I know the answer, I must say thank you for telling me. Yeah, that does sound easier than English. The thing is, you never actually think about your native language until you're forced to.
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Livemocha is AMAZING!
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Livemocha is AMAZING!
Agreed. Is it out of beta phase yet, ie. charging?
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Livemocha is AMAZING!
Agreed. Is it out of beta phase yet, ie. charging?
Nope, it's still beta.