Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Miyabi on August 15, 2008, 05:56:48 AM
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OK, so I'm sure if I took a few hours out of my day to look through TFE and write down and figure it all out I could figure out how to speak in the vernacular that Spook uses.
I think it'd be great if Brandon posted something that explained it, or if someone else has taken the time to figure it out.
I mean, come on, how fun would it be to be chatting with some friends and there is someone eaves dropping so you drop into Eastern Slang?
ha ha. I guess I'm just weird. I love doing the same thing with Japanese, sadly, not many of my friends speak Japanese, they feel it's too difficult. ::)
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I'd totally learn it. I think it'd be a blast to figure it out.
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What's so hard?
1) Move the main verb of the sentence to the beginning.
2) Remove nouns relating to any transitive verbs.
3) Precede the last verb of the sentence with 'the' making it an object noun.
4) Add 'ING' to all remaining verbs in the sentence.
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*Glomps Vegas*
OMG I love you. I didn't want to take the time to figure it out. ha ha.
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Yeah, I have no idea what I was talking about; seemed funny at the time. Brandon might not have had any rhyme or reason, just wrote what sounded the best.
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Ya know...for making that up completely, the result you get is pretty close. I'm impressed.
And as a side note, it's kind of sad that we're all here learning how to speak the slang dialect of a world that doesn't exist.
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And as a side note, it's kind of sad that we're all here learning how to speak the slang dialect of a world that doesn't exist.
hey hey dont drag me into this :D
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Hey Reaves has a picture now!
Yeah it is kinda sad. . . but then as soon as we start talking that way. . . then it isn't fake anymore.
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Hey Reaves has a picture now!
hurray!
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I'm sorry, but I am NOT buying into this. Spook's dialect is by far the most annoying thing about Mistborn, because it's completely nonsensical. Languages do not work that way. Sanderson has many strong points, but the invention of dialects is NOT one of them. If he wanted to make up a completely new language, he should have stayed away from words that sounded like they came from English but switched parts of speech. It might have been more believable if he'd at least started with Polish words and then slaughtered them - at least not many of his English readers know enough Polish to object. What he did instead is ridiculous and would never work as a "language". Languages have much more internal logic than that. Spook's dialect makes me shudder.
OK, rant over. Thanks for listening.
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It's not a language. It's a dialect. And I think it's purpose was to be annoying, though not to us as much as to the characters. That necessitated it being a little annoying to us.
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I'm sorry, but I am NOT buying into this. Spook's dialect is by far the most annoying thing about Mistborn, because it's completely nonsensical. Languages do not work that way. Sanderson has many strong points, but the invention of dialects is NOT one of them. If he wanted to make up a completely new language, he should have stayed away from words that sounded like they came from English but switched parts of speech. It might have been more believable if he'd at least started with Polish words and then slaughtered them - at least not many of his English readers know enough Polish to object. What he did instead is ridiculous and would never work as a "language". Languages have much more internal logic than that. Spook's dialect makes me shudder.
OK, rant over. Thanks for listening.
who axed you? :evil grin:
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It's not a language. It's a dialect. And I think it's purpose was to be annoying, though not to us as much as to the characters. That necessitated it being a little annoying to us.
Well, technically, the term dialect might not be accurate since dialects of a language are supposed to be mutually comprehensible (at least 80%); if they're more different, then they become separate languages. And in any case, dialects are supposed to have logic too.
I agree that Spook's way of speaking is meant to annoy the other characters, but it theoretically could do so without annoying ME. :)
And Vegas, no one axed me specifically, but I considered it my duty as the board's linguistic expert, as acknowledged on the Polish thread. ;)
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SarahG, I don't question your linguistic prowess I was merely trying to spice things up, lol. Personally, I don't question the validity of Spook's language when so many factors enter when mixing sociolects with idiolects, especially in a world so different to our own.
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What he says makes sense to me. o.0 Like I understood what he said, I just haven't taken the time to dissect it and figure out how to speak it. Then my understanding might come from the lots of studying languages I have done. Like I have spent a lot of time looking and learning a little bit of this or that language then learning how languages are put together.
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You're not the only linguistics expert...
Anyway, it's more a cant or argot than a dialect.
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Suddenly feels dumb because I want to minor in linguistics and I don't know what those words mean.
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Actually, Sanderson has posted a few translations in the annotations of Mistborn.
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You're not the only linguistics expert...
Anyway, it's more a cant or argot than a dialect.
I was being facetious, I'm not actually a linguistic expert at all, though I once dreamed of being one. But for the rest of you who are interested in linguistics, don't you get annoyed with the way Spook talks? Doesn't it offend all your morphological and syntactical instincts?
(By the way, I would argue that "dialect" actually is a better term than "cant" or "argot", since the differences in speech are supposedly regional rather than being the specialized terms of a particular trade or a way of speaking in certain situations.)
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But it seems highly unlikely to have developed naturally, so it probably started as a cant or cryptolect, to quote the Wikipedia rhyming slang article, "developed intentionally to confuse non-locals."
Brandon based the concept of Spook's language, if not the exact execution, on the posts of TWG forum member Gemm.
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Do we have links for these posts (says the guy who never links anything).
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You're not the only linguistics expert...
Anyway, it's more a cant or argot than a dialect.
Ookla, has everything you've said always sounded like you were on the verge of revealing some great, three-book secret? Or is that an acquired trait?
(I can see it now. . . .)
Ookla's Spouse: "Honey, could you make a trip to the store? I'd like some oranges to put in this salad."
Ookla: "Oranges aren't the only things you find in stores, you know."
Ookla's Spouse: "We're also running out of milk, you should probably pick up a gallon while you're there."
Ookla: "Milk isn't the only thing we're running out of."
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Ookla's Spouse: oh, I've finally figured out how to cook this cake without sugar so it still tastes good!
Ookla: You just want to think you've got that one figured out...
I agree. I think it must be an acquired trait, but I don't know, maybe he's had it since birth.
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Ookla's spouse: So this cake I am making for your mother's birthday, I was thinking white cake because I have a wonderful recipe but also thinking about making chocolate because she raved about the piece she had at Applebee's that one time.
Ookla: This makes me laugh, when you finish making the cake let me know and I'll share it with you.
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Ookla: What you made isn't actually a cake, it's more of a bread.
Mrs. Mok: Well, I used baking powder and not yeast.
Ookla: Ah, but what you thought was baking powder actually started out as yeast, when it was first invented.
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Ookla: It's a mistake to draw any conclusions based on one piece of cake. Yes, some things turn out the same, but more things don't.
(After second piece)
Ookla: This cake is horrible. Just kidding (Or am I?)
Sorry mine doesn't have the characteristic ... in it, but you know. Good work you guys, these made me laugh.
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I actually have a cake recipe without sugar that I make for Ookla's birthday...but he doesn't go to the store very often.
Umm... I don't know what your problem is with the way he talks. I understand him perfectly. His obfuscations are really just more of a cant or argot -- meant to confuse non locals... ;)
-Mrs. Mok
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WE understand him, it just seems that everything he types here makes it sound like he's hiding something or knows more than what he's letting on (which he usually does).
His obfuscations are really just more of a cant or argot -- meant to confuse non locals... ;)
That is hilarious. A round of applause for Mrs. Mok!
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*claps loudly and laughs hysterically*
Yeah, we know what he means, it's just that he always says stuff that's meant to either confuse, mislead, redirect, help, encourage, or annoy us. Hence, we can't figure out when he's doing one and when he's doing another. But where would we be in our speculation without him?
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*joins in the applause for Mrs. Mok, not just for her comment but for the incredible feat of understanding Ookla perfectly*
We certainly can't do without Ookla, he knows too much about everything. Not only is he an alpha reader, but he seems to be an expert on everything from astronomy to linguistics. He has all the answers. Of course, that's also why he frustrates us sometimes - in comparison, we all feel like ignoramuses.
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Honestly, he takes great pleasure in playing with your heads. Sometimes he's so gleeful about a particularly clever bit of teasing that he just has to call me over and show me what he did. Oh, and he often will tell me things like, "somebody in one of the threads has totally figured everything out, but they're not advocating the idea like they believe it--I think they only said it as a joke." I don't want any spoilers, so I just don't ask. (I've been an alpha reader since I married him, but not for any of the stuff that was written before)
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SO one of us IS right. Now which one is it, and which theory. AS long as it's not Andrew ;). (Crossin my fingers, and Hopin' it's me)
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Honestly, he takes great pleasure in playing with your heads. Sometimes he's so gleeful about a particularly clever bit of teasing that he just has to call me over and show me what he did. Oh, and he often will tell me things like, "somebody in one of the threads has totally figured everything out, but they're not advocating the idea like they believe it--I think they only said it as a joke." I don't want any spoilers, so I just don't ask. (I've been an alpha reader since I married him, but not for any of the stuff that was written before)
I assume he's a very happy man then? Because my head sure gets played with. And I have to say, you're every bit as good at this as he is. I'm still trying to decide if your post is a good thing, because it means some of us are on the right track, or a bad thing, because now every theory that has been joked about or debunked from my Ruin-Atium Mine-Kandra theory to to Coma's Mist Spirit-Chapter Headings now should probably be rexamined.
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Oh, and he often will tell me things like, "somebody in one of the threads has totally figured everything out, but they're not advocating the idea like they believe it--I think they only said it as a joke."
You're pretty good at messing with people's heads too, lol. Now everyone is going to be going through their old posts and seeing if something they said in jest could actually be accurate.
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yeah, i knew it. Vin dies/ kelsier lives.
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yeah, i knew it. Vin dies/ kelsier lives.
Yeah, I knew that one too.
Kelsier was burning alot of pewter so he survived his head being crushed in. Dockson had created a mask prior to this incident since he was so good at makeup having made Kelsier's disguises in the past, so when they saw Kelsier again, they thought it was a Kandra but it was actually Kelsier. They looked into the eye of his fake face which is why the light was missing and since his face was partially collapsed, his voice sounded weird too. Kelsier then leaves to perform his tasks that we'll see in book 3 but leaves OrSuer (Spelling?) behind as another person, who we see at the beginning of book 2. OrSuer then has to catch up to Kelsier to be part of his plans, which is when TenSoon infiltrates the group.
Vin chokes on a chicken bone in book 3 and dies because the only person that knows the heimlich is Kelsier, who just happens to be galavanting throughout the kingdom.
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Once you guys read a few Spook chapters, you're going to scream and beat your heads against the wall.
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Once you guys read a few Spook chapters, you're going to scream and beat your heads against the wall.
you bastar-
you did it again.
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Oh no. I read one of them, in the back of the book, but I'm assuming it's later in the book. I bet it has something to do with Spook using Tin so much that it is changing him, maybe that's why the Lord Ruler is so pwerful, using Tin all the time made Spook's tin really powerful, the Lord Ruler has been using allomancy for thousands of years, although Spooks thing could just be because of his constant flaring...
I'll bet it's something about allomancy or hemalurgy though.
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I just read that Spook chapter was that Spook had been burning Tin constantly for the last year or so and that his senses were hypersensitive.
I believe that this means that the more you use a metal, any metal the more proficient you become at it. Remember that during The Lord Ruler's time, burning metals was probably kept to a minimum to avoid detection. I don't think everybody could afford to have a smoker with them.
That would also partly explain why The Lord Ruler was as powerful as he was with Allomancy. A thousand years of practice.
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I think what Ookla is referring to is Spook talking more in his chapters.....or do I?
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Mmm. That's not what I'm referring to. (I mean something that happens a few Spook chapters later on, not the one that's previewed in the new MB paperback. That chapter is good to speculate from like Comatose did though.)
You'll see what I mean. Oh yes, indeed you will.
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Does Spook go insane? (SPOILER FROM THE SAMPLE CHAPTER) I bet he hooks up with that guy's sister though, doesn't he? Ookla, don't tell me, I'll find out when the time comes.
Also Ookla, once this as all played out and we've read the book, you've got to tell us what you were thinking reading these posts, who you were laughing at and who you thought got the closest.
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I bet he hooks up with that guy's sister though, doesn't he?
I would think that with Spook being so sensitive to touch, he's become a quick shooter.....not that there's anything wrong with that.
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You'll see what I mean. Oh yes, indeed you will.
You should just add stuff like this as a sig at the end of all your posts.
Ookla, does Marsh die? "You'll see. Oh yes, indeed you will."
Ookla, what happens to Ruin? "You'll see. Oh yes, indeed you will."
Ookla, what do the funny blue and yellow stars mean? "You'll see. Oh yes, indeed you will."
!!!! i just realized somehow i lost 3 stars....have i been demoted?
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I'm pretty sure it means you just went up a level. The closer you are to your next level, the more stars you have, I'm guessing.
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But that doesn't make sense because I just leveled up and I only had one star right before that.
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I think I just leveled up, and I lost four stars so that makes sense.
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I don't think I'm anywhere near leveling. ha ha.
Oh sad. I start this thread then miss all the fun cause I was in NYC and then drove across the country back to Idaho. How come I missed all the making fun of the mok?
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We could start over again, if you really want too, I'm sure Ookla doesn't mind ;D.
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ha ha. So did we ever get any definite translational pattern or am I gonna have to work it out myself? ha ha.
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You're talking about Spook now right? I don't think there is any pattern, it's just kind of made up. I think that's why Sarah is so annoyed with it.
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There is a patter, it is just unconventional and that's why she is mad. ha ha.
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No, I'm pretty sure there's no pattern, and it was just kind of made up I think, here's a quote from an annotation.
Spook is based very loosely on a person I knew from the timewastersguide forums. Zack--or Gemm, as his nick was--is very good at posting random gibberish which, if you look at it very closely, actually reads to be rather poetic. I wanted to do a character who spoke with a dialect that had an interesting rhythm, yet was difficult to make out.
Hence the character of Spook. Normally, I don't like dialects. Yet, something about this one was very intriguing to me. I like the way his sentences sound, even when they're completely unintelligible. I do realize, however, that some people really don't like reading what he has to say. Don't worry--he begins to speak more and more intelligibly from here on out. Previous
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That doesn't mean there wasn't a pattern.
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Well, there WASN'T a pattern, conventional or unconventional, and that's that. If one is ever discovered and explained in a convincing way, I will eat humble pie, but until then, I will rant whenever Spook's speech is mentioned in a positive way.
Miyabi, if this helps you understand my aversion, I feel about Spook's speech the way you feel about facial hair. (By the way, I have different tastes - I think soul patches are the worst kind of facial hair ever invented, and I'm mad at Apollo Anton Ohno for popularizing them. On the other hand, I'm OK with some kinds of beards - neatly trimmed, but not sculpted.) It just makes me cringe and shudder.
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Exactly, what makes you think there is a pattern anyway, Miyabi?
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I'm going to spend part of tonight finding and writing down everything that he said and try and figure it out.
I guess I thought there was a pattern because I understood everything he said. I am good at things like Math, Science, Art, etc., and I'm majoring in Software development. All things that have rigorous patterns. So I assumed that if it appealed to me there was some hidden patter. ha ha.
I'll work on it though tonight.
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If it's any comfort, Miyabi, I always assumed there was a pattern to it as well and just didn't take the time to figure it out.
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I'm sure there is a pattern, because in order to write the character believably and without jarring the reader, there has to be some cohesive method to his particular pattern of speech.
I never thought of it as a dialect or tradespeak so much as the kind of speech you get when a foreigner of any country comes and tries to speak english without much formal training. They will automatically fall back on grammar and composition from their native language even while speaking English. This leads to some very quirky conversations the farther you get from the indo-european language group.
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I'm sure there is a pattern, because in order to write the character believably and without jarring the reader, there has to be some cohesive method to his particular pattern of speech.
This reasoning is what led me to believe there is NOT a pattern, since I as a reader am seriously jarred and do not find the character believable.
I can't prove a negative, though. Now I know how the atheists feel when they try to prove there isn't a god.
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Ha ha. That's good Sarah.
Also, I haven't been able to get my books unpacked yet. . . so it'll be a few days, especially with all my classes starting up.