Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Miyabi on August 02, 2008, 07:31:48 AM
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My collective theory on the story of HoA!
-Note : I'm not going to clutter this post with evidence. It's there, just look for it in the books and on the threads. Siting all of my evidence would make this post WAY too busy and long.-
1 - Allomancy - I feel that it will be downplayed a bit, but will still retain some of it's importance. It will still be key to defeating Ruin and the deepness, though it will take a back seat to Hemalurgy. Obviously Atium will not be as much an issue as it was in the previous books. I also don't feel there is much more to learn about it, other than minor stuff to solidify the more blurred edges hanging around from the last two books. I believe that when TLR took the power from the well he created Allomancy in order to attain his immortality and to control the people through rewarding them with it.
2 - Feruchemy - Where we learned a lot in WoA I believe we will get what is left from HoA. I do believe that the metals we have not heard about yet will come into play, but probably only minorly. I do think that there MIGHT be a possibility of them posing a semi-key plot. -see Sazed- I think that Feruchemy was created by a past claimer of the power from the Well and it was created in order to preserve thing, thus linking it to Preservation.
3 - Hemalurgy - We will get the rest of what is involved to creating a Hemalurgist. I believe that we will find it will concert the following. :Sacrifice(s), What metals do what: I also think we will find that those with either Allomancy or Feruchemy gain great advantages in those if they attain Hemalurgic abilities. I think that this was probably the first of the powers to have existed, thus it better binds the two others and ties it all to the mists.
4 - The Mist - Vin's theory about it being the Deepness will be proven. We will also learn how it is she burns the mist. I personally believe that it is a combination of using multiple systems at the same time creates the ability to burn the mists. I believe that using all three magic systems and burning the mists at the same time will be some ultimate power that has yet to be discovered and will be important. After all, look what Vin did with just two.
5 - Ruin - Ruin needs a physical form in order to affect the physical plain. That is the thing that it needs. I believe that the inquisitors will somehow provide this gateway that is required. How it will happen? Not sure yet. I also think that Ruin is heavily tied into Hemalurgy.
6 - Preservation - Preservation has been buried within one of our protagonists. Who I'm not sure. I think it will either be Vin or Sazed though. Also I think preservation is heavily tied to Feruchemy. I think that Preservation planted itself into a person so it could affect the physical world in the same way that Ruin needs to find a gateway.
7 - Elend - Elend, now having Allomantic powers, will be able to feel more a part of the team and will be more accepted by the remaining crew members. He will continue to play the same type of character in the third book. I think he will be the one to figure out, but not actually cause the "unity" :read that at the end of this post:
8 - Vin - She will again discover more about herself and her powers. Her having access to Hemalurgy will be heavily relied upon as they learn how it is used. -There is no basis other than my theorizing on this next part.- She will discover she also has Feruchumical abilities which will lead to her being able to unify the powers.
9 - Sazed - He represents more than knowledge and preservation. He represents all of humanity in a struggle between logic and belief. He will uncover the rest of the Terris religion and he will learn to believe. . . not in a religion, but balance.
10 - The Unification - I believe that the only way to defeat Ruin will be to unify Ruin and Preservation into a single entity. This will, in my theorization, happen when Vin uses all three magic systems together to call upon the mists. Unifying the two magics that represent each extreme with Allomancy, the middle ground together, causing balance in the world.
So it's almost 3 A.M. here. . . haha. I just thought this would be a good way to put everything together.
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8 - Vin - She will again discover more about herself and her powers. Her having access to Hemalurgy will be heavily relied upon as they learn how it is used. -There is no basis other than my theorizing on this next part.- She will discover she also has Feruchumical abilities which will lead to her being able to unify the powers.
I think they all sound pretty good, except I disagree with this one.
Feruchemy is hereditary among Terrismen. I think it's safe to say Vin's parents were a nobleman and Skaa.
Now, she might gain the powers through Hemalurgy, but I think that is unlikely as well. We know that Inquisitors are made with Hemalurgy, we know it's a 'messy' process requiring a sacrifice of someone. I just don't see Vin sacrificing someone to make herself stronger.
Yes, it could happen by accident, or by the person's request (such as Sazed asking Vin to sacrifice himself to give her the power) but I think that's really really unlikely.
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8 - Vin - She will again discover more about herself and her powers. Her having access to Hemalurgy will be heavily relied upon as they learn how it is used. -There is no basis other than my theorizing on this next part.- She will discover she also has Feruchumical abilities which will lead to her being able to unify the powers.
I think they all sound pretty good, except I disagree with this one.
Feruchemy is hereditary among Terrismen. I think it's safe to say Vin's parents were a nobleman and Skaa.
Now, she might gain the powers through Hemalurgy, but I think that is unlikely as well. We know that Inquisitors are made with Hemalurgy, we know it's a 'messy' process requiring a sacrifice of someone. I just don't see Vin sacrificing someone to make herself stronger.
Yes, it could happen by accident, or by the person's request (such as Sazed asking Vin to sacrifice himself to give her the power) but I think that's really really unlikely.
I don't think she will need to gain MORE Hemalurgy, but will be able to expound on what she already has.
Also, I think that we will find that farther back in her history she has Terrisman genes.
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Also, I think that we will find that farther back in her history she has Terrisman genes. [/color]
I'm sorry, but this doesn't really make sense, and it isn't really necessary to the series either. Vin doesn't match any of the characteristics of terrismen at all, and we've heard nothing about her having feruchemy at all. Honestly, if she suddenly can use feruchemy, I'll feel somewhat cheated.
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Also, I think that we will find that farther back in her history she has Terrisman genes. [/color]
I'm sorry, but this doesn't really make sense, and it isn't really necessary to the series either. Vin doesn't match any of the characteristics of terrismen at all, and we've heard nothing about her having feruchemy at all. Honestly, if she suddenly can use feruchemy, I'll feel somewhat cheated.
It was just an essential piece to my cumulative thoughts about what will happen.
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Let's start by saying that Vin did not use both powers to call upon the mists. her earring was removed from her ear before she called upon the mists, and is most likely the reason why she has been unable to do it since. Secondly, if Ruin needs a physical form, why not just take an Inquisitor? He has almost total control of Marsh, and I imagine there are some Inquisitors who don't have a conscience and are therefore totally under Ruin's control. The Prologue says that there is a barrier hampering his touch on the world. This must be Preservation. I don't believe preservation is weak. I believe they are now equal, and cancelling each other out to an extent. Ruin's ultimate goal will be to tip the scales in Its favor, or remove the opposing force altogether.
I also don't believe in the Unification theory, but that's because I don't think a physical form is required for either power.
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I don't think gaining a physical form would be that simple. I believe it would be very hard and take a very distinct set of parameters to be met and that is the barrier. We also don't fully understand Hemalurgy and how it works, so she COULD still be using it.
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5 - Ruin - Ruin needs a physical form in order to affect the physical plain. That is the thing that it needs. I believe that the inquisitors will somehow provide this gateway that is required. How it will happen? Not sure yet. I also think that Ruin is heavily tied into Hemalurgy.
6 - Preservation - Preservation has been buried within one of our protagonists. Who I'm not sure. I think it will either be Vin or Sazed though. Also I think preservation is heavily tied to Feruchemy. I think that Preservation planted itself into a person so it could affect the physical world in the same way that Ruin needs to find a gateway.
Why would Preservation be tied to Feruchemy? That doesn't make much sense to me...And if Preservation were tied to Feruchemy, why is Ruin able to affect metal minds? That doesn't make sense. It does make sense, however, for preservation to be tied to allomancy, the only system we don't know for sure that ruin can influence, and it seems likely it can't.
And I also disagree with this physical form thing.
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5 - Ruin - Ruin needs a physical form in order to affect the physical plain. That is the thing that it needs. I believe that the inquisitors will somehow provide this gateway that is required. How it will happen? Not sure yet. I also think that Ruin is heavily tied into Hemalurgy.
6 - Preservation - Preservation has been buried within one of our protagonists. Who I'm not sure. I think it will either be Vin or Sazed though. Also I think preservation is heavily tied to Feruchemy. I think that Preservation planted itself into a person so it could affect the physical world in the same way that Ruin needs to find a gateway.
Why would Preservation be tied to Feruchemy? That doesn't make much sense to me...And if Preservation were tied to Feruchemy, why is Ruin able to affect metal minds? That doesn't make sense. It does make sense, however, for preservation to be tied to allomancy, the only system we don't know for sure that ruin can influence, and it seems likely it can't.
And I also disagree with this physical form thing.
Because EVERYTHING about Feruchemy is preserving stuff. Speed, senses, knowledge. . . just makes sense.
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No, it's about storing stuff to be used later. It is eventually used, though. The only aspect I really see as being preservation is copperminds. And, as earlier mentioned, ruin can affect these, which doesn't make sense if they are directly related to preservation. And allomancy became prevalent in a time when Preservation had pretty much complete power over the land through the lord ruler, and as far as we know, cannot be affected by Ruin. Makes sense to me.
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No, it's about storing stuff to be used later. It is eventually used, though. The only aspect I really see as being preservation is copperminds. And, as earlier mentioned, ruin can affect these, which doesn't make sense if they are directly related to preservation. And allomancy became prevalent in a time when Preservation had pretty much complete power over the land through the lord ruler, and as far as we know, cannot be affected by Ruin. Makes sense to me.
Think of it this way. If we want to eat fruit at a later time, we jar it. (preserve even though it will still be used later). BUT it can still get things like botulism or other forms of rotting in it. Preserve doesn't mean forever.
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Ok. I see what you mean. However, that still doesn't explain why ruin can affect feruchemy, but not allomancy. That, I think, should be our most conclusive proof. Although logically, your explanation does make sense.
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Ok. I see what you mean. However, that still doesn't explain why ruin can affect feruchemy, but not allomancy. That, I think, should be our most conclusive proof. Although logically, your explanation does make sense.
In my perspective. How COULD he affect Allomancy? I mean unless he was watching something happen AT THAT MOMENT he couldn't affect the process. Nothing is stored in the metals they are just metals that are used ONLY while they are being burned. Feruchemy on the other hand just kinda. . . sits there waiting to be used.
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Well you look at the other side. "How could Ruin affect hemalurgy?" Apparently it can totally control a strong hemalurgist, and influence weaker ones. Yet we see nothing of the sort with allomancy.
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Well, my thoughts on Hemalurgy is that it's always being used, they energy constantly pulsing from their bodies, BUT that's a bit of a stretch.
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Yes, it is somewhat stretchy, although it would effectively explain why inquisitors need to rest a lot.
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I totally didn't add that into my thoughts.
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2 - Feruchemy - I think that Feruchemy was created by a past claimer of the power from the Well and it was created in order to preserve thing, thus linking it to Preservation.
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very interesting idea. Supported by the fact that Allomancy's appearance is tied with TLR's Ascension. It would also suggest that hemalurgy was created at another time of Ascension, perhaps as Ruin was released in the past. It would closely link the three systems to the well. Perhaps we should start looking for connections between the well and the mists, as Sanderson says all three are related to the mists (i think.)
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2 - Feruchemy - I think that Feruchemy was created by a past claimer of the power from the Well and it was created in order to preserve thing, thus linking it to Preservation.
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very interesting idea. Supported by the fact that Allomancy's appearance is tied with TLR's Ascension. It would also suggest that hemalurgy was created at another time of Ascension, perhaps as Ruin was released in the past. It would closely link the three systems to the well. Perhaps we should start looking for connections between the well and the mists, as Sanderson says all three are related to the mists (i think.)
Yeah. I've tried to say that Hemalurgy came before the other magic systems, but people disagreed. I also tried to say that the mists come from the well, that also was shot down. ha ha.
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I never said it was wrong... I just said that I disagree, and gave my reasons for believing so. However, we really have no proof for anything, so you can believe whatever the heck you want to about it.
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Ok. so I have realized that if you havn't been keeping up with posting that it can be a long process to get aclimated with a new thread. After concideralbe reading I think Im on the same page with this thread. I may be a little behind so forgive me. I see alot of potential in some of miyabi's points. That is not to say that some don't have to streach and hope the others streach enouph to be met halfway but thats besides the point.
I for one think that all of the known powers have been around before TLR's ascention. Ruin can clearly control (at least to some degree) Hemalurgy. Preservation has yet to be clearly linked to anything but if we assume that the "Mist spirit" is some form of Preservation than we can assume a link between Preservation and Allomancy due to the "Spirits" ability to use Allomancy. This leaves Feruchemy, in that case I strongly agree with miyabi about it being created before TLR's ascention (maybe derived from the Terris Worldbringers, maybe a past ascention).
Now this could be shot out of the water if you were to say that both Ruin and Preservation aquired the abilities with the known powers somehow during the powers creation. Maybe the powers were created by a past ascention by using part of Ruin and Preservation as a jumping off point. The past person who ascended used part of Ruin to create Hemalurgy and part of Preservation to create Allomancy. I'm shooting in the dark here so I'll break for a while.
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That's actually an interesting idea. Like Ruin using super hemalurgy and Preservation using super allomancy? And then Ruin can control hemalurgists through it's super hemalurgy, and so theoretically if another hemalurgist were strong enough... All sorts of possibilities open up.
Of course, all of this is mindless speculation, but it's very interesting.
But it makes sense, too. If Ruin and Preservation can't use the magic systems, what is the source of their power? Themselves? I don't know. It's obvious that they're not limited to the magic systems, though. Anyway, I'm tired, so I'm now rambling. I really ought to start sleeping at night...
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I never said it was wrong... I just said that I disagree, and gave my reasons for believing so. However, we really have no proof for anything, so you can believe whatever the heck you want to about it.
That's what I meant. Sorry. I just meant that not really many people agreed with my ideas. ha ha!
Green: I really kinda like that idea, but again I think Preservation would be linked to Feruchemy not Allomancy.
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I wanted to add something to the compiled list. OreSeur mentions that kandra are of preservation. Also in an annotation EUOL says that we will learn more about kandra in the final book... Anyone have any thoughts on what OreSeur ment by saying kandra are of preservation?
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The Kandra believe they will one day rule the world once humanity destroys itself. It could also be argued that, if the power of the well came from preservation, and TLR used that power to create the Kandra, then Tensoon would be right. However, that would mean that the Koloss are also of Preservation, and that is hard to believe.
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I think it's a perspective here again. In the way that they reuse what is still around to create life and continue on. It's kinda like my fruit analogy again, just add like, when your bananas get all brown and you can't eat them, you make banana bread out of them. So now, even though they WERE useless, they now serve a purpose and can STILL be used.
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Ok about the Kandra. Think about Kandra and Kolos. So apparently according to Tensoon (posing as OreSeur) the Kolos and the Kandra are like cousins. The thing about this is the only thing we know that makes them similar is the ability to have a strong Allomancer controll them. This could mean a couple of things. It could mean that both Kolos and Kandra are of Preservation and the Kolos are more like a means to an end. Think Preservation may be about saving things but sometimes you need to be able to destroy things before you can heal them. It could also mean that Kolos are to Ruin as Kandra are to Preservation and that is how they are related in a kind of similar creation sense. This would point to Allomancy being the power not possesed by eith Ruin or Preservation and maybe the Lord Ruler created Allomancy as a way to control both Ruin and Preservation. speculating again and Im not sure it even makes sense. I understand it but that doesnt mean much
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Green I like you, you keep pointing out stuff that supports the theories I have that other people disagree with. :D ha ha. I mean, like, you think of the stuff I DIDN'T think of to support my theories, and you help to tie them all together!
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You know miyabi I do what I can. It turns out that most of the time we have similar ideas and theories, and on occaision we fill in the blanks on each others posts. Maybe you could make me some french oninon soup and we could call it square ;)
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I'm still not convinced that Kandra are of Preservation, or that the Lord Ruler created them, but if he created them, he most definitely created the Koloss, and the Koloss would also be of Preservation, not ruin. If anything, that supports allomancy being tied to preservation, as it makes sense for the magic system that is able to control them to be tied to the power that created them.
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I'm still not convinced that Kandra are of Preservation, or that the Lord Ruler created them, but if he created them, he most definitely created the Koloss, and the Koloss would also be of Preservation, not ruin. If anything, that supports allomancy being tied to preservation, as it makes sense for the magic system that is able to control them to be tied to the power that created them.
I'm still seeing NO consequential evidence that ties Allomancy to Preservation except that Ruin, as far as we know, can't affect it. I see much more that attaches it to Feruchemy.
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Well, there's the fact that the mist spirit, which opposes Ruin, uses Allomancy. A lot.
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Well, there's the fact that the mist spirit, which opposes Ruin, uses Allomancy. A lot.
See my theory on the Mist Spirit in. . . I don't remember which thread off the top of my head. (Ha ha that rhymed.)
The theory is that the person who is connected to the Well, subconsciously uses their magic creating the Mist Spirit to tell them what they should do. And somehow the Well influences their subconscious mind in order to cause this to happen.
Some support -
1 - At first they mist spirit is just barely there and only the person feeling the pulses of the Well can see it.
2 - As the person gets closer to the Well, or to finding it, the Spirit gets stronger and more violent, eventually being able to be seen by others.
3 - Earlier the Spirit seems to only point towards the Well, but later attacks people to make the person use the power of the Well.
4 - As far as we know, both times we hear of someone getting to the Well, the Spirit disappears afterwards.
Now I realize none of this is concrete and could ALSO support it being of Preservation, but I don't think it is.
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Actually the mist spirit was at the well with Vin and Elend, and showed Vin how to save Elend. The mist spirits increased activity could be related to the strengthening of the well's power. It could be the guardian of the well.
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Actually the mist spirit was at the well with Vin and Elend, and showed Vin how to save Elend. The mist spirits increased activity could be related to the strengthening of the well's power. It could be the guardian of the well.
Yes, but the way I'm explaining it is that it's a manifestation of the HoA's own subconscious mind combined with the power of the well.
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Sorry to contradict but I find it difficult to think the Mist Spirit is in any way a "manifestation of the HOA's own subconscious". I might be able to understand the idea I just find it hard to grasp. I mean the Mist Spirit acted in ways to stop the HOA from releasing the power of the well (and in turn Ruin), back in Alendi's time it stabbed one of his friends and again in Vin's time it wanted Vin to take the power and save Elend. How is it the Vins subconscious was attempting to sway her desicion if she wasnt even aware of a reason. She had no previouse reason to think that releasing the power of the WoA was in any way bad so why would her subconscious want her to retain the power? That is unless she was being influenced by Hermology. Also if the Mist Spirit is part of Vin then how can she sense it's use of allomancy. Its not like she can sense her own use of the power (at least not externally) she can only sense her use by the inherent sound they give off.
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I'm not saying that the Spirit isn't, at least in part from the Well. It could very well be from the Well, BUT I think it's manifested through the HoA's powers, which would explain the way the Mists react to it. So it's like it comes from the Well, but uses the HoA to channel a manifestation.
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The thing is, miyabi, no one knows enough either way to prove the allomancy/feruchemy - Preservation thing. So basically, we wait for HoA, then we all come here and have a big "I told you so" party.
And I disagree with the mist spirit being tied directly to the hero. I think instead, it is tied to the well, which is more closely related to the hero than anyone else.
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I am a big fan of "I told you so" parties. That's one of the reasons that I try to stay impartial to most ideas. That and like Andrew said we lack the knowledge to say one way or the other so its good to stay open about it.
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I told you so is one of the most fun things to say to another person after theorizing for months on end. Everyone should experience it at least once in their lifetimes.
As far as the mist spirit goes, i really don't think it could in any way be the unconcious of a Hero. Unless Vin has some serious anger issues about her newlywed husband, that is. Also, the mist spirit tore off the piece of Sazed's page, remember? Vin had no idea he and the other Terriswoman (forget her name) were studying it or any reason to tear off that particular piece of prophecy.
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OK, you guys aren't understanding. I'm NOT saying Vin created, by herself, the Mist Spirit. I'm saying it is of the Well, but her being connected to the Well, the Well THEN USES her subconscious to create the Mist Spirit.
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That makes marginally more sense, but I still disagree.
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I understood it just doesn't make much sense. For reasons already posted. I would be more inclined to think that the Spirit is some apparition of Preservation or a guardian of the well than to think the well projected this Spirit through Vin. The WoA obviously has enough power already what reason does it have to use Vin as a middleman?
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OK, you guys aren't understanding. I'm NOT saying Vin created, by herself, the Mist Spirit. I'm saying it is of the Well, but her being connected to the Well, the Well THEN USES her subconscious to create the Mist Spirit.
The term to use in cases like this is Occam's razor.
You admit that the Mist Spirit is at least partially independent of Vin (otherwise why would it act against her apparent will?). You admit that it is either from the well itself or from Preservation, at least partly. Why, then, without further evidence, do you assume some sort of subconscious connection to Vin? In what way does it mirror Vin's behavior, Vin's attitude, or her existence? The Spirit appeared well after Vin was born. It has spent time around her, but given the fact that she was going to use the well to release Ruin (and the spirit probably knew that Ruin was trying to get free through her), we have plenty of justification for it's interest without assuming any further connection. In short, what facts make this theory necessary that isn't already covered by one of the others?
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Well put Happy. I agree, what connection to Vin is needed?
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We see with at least the Mist Spirit Vin sees that it uses Allomancy and I don't believe that the Well could use Allomancy to create such an entity. SO, the connection to Vin is that it is using her Allomancy to create it, so it WOULDN'T reflect her will, because she isn't consciously causing it to happen.
Did you notice when the Spirit was weaker and her emotions became heightened suddenly the Mist Spirit disappeared? I think that the heightened emotions made it harder for the Well to use her Allomancy at these times, because it wasn't strong enough yet.
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So wait...when the mist spirit uses allomancy, it's actually vin using allomancy unconsciously, all the while feeling allomantic pulses from the spirit? Ummmm....not buying it, friend.
Or, vin is using allomancy unconsciously to create the spirit? Yeah, still not buying it.
And maybe the mist spirit is wise and knows that you shouldn't stick around when a young woman's emotions start to go. Seriously, that's not a happy place to be.
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I think kelsier will come back [okay....wishful thinking, lol, god I loved Kel]
Seriously though, I think quite a few things on your list are possible; others are a bit obvious. Elend is pretty badass in the chapter 1 preview that was posted. Haha
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I think kelsier will come back [okay....wishful thinking, lol, god I loved Kel]
Seriously though, I think quite a few things on your list are possible; others are a bit obvious. Elend is pretty badass in the chapter 1 preview that was posted. Haha
Kell coming back would be pretty . . . I dunno I wanna say tight. . . but then I also would feel robbed. :/
I don't like the knew Elend. D:
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As much as I loved Kelsier's character, the Gandalf contingency has been done to death. He is even more influential to the story dead than alive.
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As much as I loved Kelsier's character, the Gandalf contingency has been done to death. He is even more influential to the story dead than alive.
Yeah and besides. . . could you imagine how crazy his believers would be if he came back?
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lol yeah that was more of a joke than an actual theory :P
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As much as I loved Kelsier's character, the Gandalf contingency has been done to death. He is even more influential to the story dead than alive.
He died a good death as far as stories go as well. Finally slaying one of the dreaded Steel Inquisitors and then facing down the Lord Ruler...that's as good as it gets for storybook character arcs. Kelsier was a good one, but it was his time.
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Although him coming back would make for a great drama.
I can see it now. Vin struggling to decide which man she truly loves as she realizes feeling for Kell that weren't there before. She starts messing around with Kell behind Elend's back. . .
H AHA>
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You know...for some reason that seems kinda creepy. Not really sure why, but still....
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Apparently someone's never watched a soap opera.
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No, I've watched approximately 2. They're rather boring most of the time, although you do get the occasional laugh out of the randomness of the drama. But I think the problem is not that I've never watched a soap, but rather that you just tried to make mistborn into one. There's just something wrong with that. Seriously.
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Hey now, I was just playing of what was given to me. ::)