Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: JCHancey on July 10, 2008, 09:36:56 AM
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Some have theorized why Rashek hated Alendi so much. Now with the prologue out I think I can safely state this: Alendi had Hemalurgy, and how he got that was the sacrifice of the stewards. He was a Hemalurgist and that is why Rashek hated him so very much :)
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i think if it was known that Alendi was slaughtering Keepers none of the Terrismen would have helped him. Also i think Rashek hated him because he was from Khlennium or whatever the city is called.
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Yes, it says in the books that rashek hates the fact that alendi, a Khlennium person, is able to dominate the world while Rashek feels it should be the Terris people. So he's just bitter.
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BUT this idea could go somewhere, say perhaps Rashek knew the way the prophesies had originally been written. I do not think that Rashek's hatred was misplaced. . . just misunderstood. I think he felt that this mane would either give up the power, releasing Ruin, or take it and use it to destructive ends, and therefore thought a Terrisman should have the power, because they would use if for the right reasons.
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7 – Rashek is a tall man – of course, most of these Terrismen are tall. He is young to receive so much respect from the other packmen. He has charisma, and the women of court would probably describe him as handsome, in a rugged sort of way.
Yet, it amazes me that anyone would give heed to a man who speaks such hatred. He has never seen Khlennium, yet he curses the city. He does not know me, yet I can already see the anger and hostility in his eyes.
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11 – It seems Rashek represents a growing faction in Terris culture. A large number of the youths think that their unusual powers should be used for more than just fieldwork, husbandry, and stonecarving. They are rowdy, even violent – far different from the quiet, discerning Terris philosophers and holy men that I have known.
They will have to be watched carefully, these Terrismen. They could be very dangerous, if given the opportunity and the motivation.
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27 – I think I’ve finally discovered why Rashek resents me so very much. He does not believe that an outsider such as myself – a foreigner – could possibly be the Hero of Ages. He believes that I have somehow tricked the philosophers, that I wear the piercings of the Hero unjustly.
According to Rashek, only a Terrisman of pure blood should have been chosen as the Hero. Oddly, I find myself even more determined because of his hatred. I must prove to him that I can perform this task.
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30 – Most of the Terrismen are not as bad as Rashek. However, I can see that they believe him, to an extent. These are simple men, not philosophers or scholars, and they don’t understand that their own prophecies say the Hero of Ages will be an outsider. They only see what Rashek points out – that they are an ostensibly superior people, and should be “dominant” rather than subservient.
Before such passion and hatred, even good men can be deceived.
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36 – I have decided that I am thankful for Rashek’s hatred. It does me well to remember that there are those who abhor me. My place is not to seek popularity or love; my place is to ensure mankind’s survival.
That should adequately support my point.
One more.
53 I have a young nephew, one Rashek. He hates all of Khlennium with the passion of envious youth. He hates Alendi even more acutely – though the two have never met – for Rashek feels betrayed that one of our oppressors
should have been chosen as the Hero of Ages.
If you guys don't have these compilations yet and want them, pm me and I'll email them to you. They're really interesting.
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I wasn't arguing against your point, just saying that it might go deeper than it does at face value.
BTW, you should send those to me.
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I wasn't arguing against your point, just saying that it might go deeper than it does at face value.
BTW, you should send those to me.
Gotcha. I sent the files.
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Alendi heard the pulsing of the Well, no? And, assuming that the prologue described the making of a SI we now know that it does require a feruchemist (which could also go on to explain why TLR was wiping out the feruchemists: So ruin could not influence the Inquisitors to make more) there would be no more feruchemists. So, assuming that Alendi hearing the pulsing of the well makes him a Hemalurgist it was, The "oppression" would be the taking of one with feruchemy and sacrificing them to make one from Khlennium a hemalurgist. We know that ruin was influencing the metalminds and the "piercings of the hero" could just refer to whoever had the most piercings and could be most easily influenced by ruin therefore making them the Hero of Ages. Kinda out there but ya never know ;)
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Part of the problem is that (as far as I remember) no one besides Alendi and Vin has felt the pulsings of the well--one reason I think Alendi was actually a/the Hero of Ages. I think hemalurgy, like allomancy, came out of whatever Rashek did at the well, which I hope is revealed in MB3.
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But what if Alendi wasn't the Hero? What if the Hero of Ages was/is actually supposed to be a Terrisman? Kwaan doesn't say whether that part was different or not. It also depended on how long ago Ruin started changing the metalminds.
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Being the hero had basically nothing to do with it. Ruin manipulated it so Alendi fit them "too well" Hemalurgy can be manipulated by ruin, thus hearing the "pulsing" of the well.
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While reading those log book posts, the bit about the hero has to be a terrisman of "pure blood," just jumped out at me for some reason, probably all this talk of blood and hemalurgy eh?
And as for the piercing of the hero, I don't think Alendi used Terrismen sacrifices to get his, I think he was given the piercings BY the terrismen, since they are the ones who know the prophecies, wouldn't they give the piercings of the hero to their chosen hero?
And Rashek thought that a Terrismen should wear the hero piercings so it doesn't make sense that terrismen would be sacrificed for them.
And further more, there were supposedly no seekers back then, so what was sacrificed to let Alendi hear the thumpings of the well? PErhaps for such minor hemalurgy (nothing compared to the inquisitors) it doesn't matter who teh blood belongs too, or what. PErhaps they just needed a goat or something. I don't think Alendi would appreciate human sacrifice, and he would have mentioned it in the logbook, I also don't think he would have gone along with it. Nor would the terrismen scholars. I think there's still something we're missing about the hemalrugy
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A point. If Rashek is insisting that the HoA has to be someone of Pure Terris Blood, it's possible Kwaan told him. Possible, mind you; Kwaan is the one who said Alendi was the Hero.
I think, in the third book, that Sazed will end up being the HoA that saves the day at the end. Alendi quotes some of the prophesies, and I find it amusing that Sazed fits those descriptions. the headings on Chapters 8 and 21:
He shall defend their ways, yet violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it.
The Hero of Ages shall not be a man, but a force. No nation may claim him, no woman shall keep him, and no king may slay him. He shall belong to none, not even himself.
Crazy idea.
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That does fit very well... Sazed to save the day eh?
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A point. If Rashek is insisting that the HoA has to be someone of Pure Terris Blood, it's possible Kwaan told him. Possible, mind you; Kwaan is the one who said Alendi was the Hero.
I think, in the third book, that Sazed will end up being the HoA that saves the day at the end. Alendi quotes some of the prophesies, and I find it amusing that Sazed fits those descriptions. the headings on Chapters 8 and 21:
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He shall defend their ways, yet violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it.
Quote
The Hero of Ages shall not be a man, but a force. No nation may claim him, no woman shall keep him, and no king may slay him. He shall belong to none, not even himself.
Crazy idea.
Not at all. Have you noticed the many mentions of how tall Sazed is (especially in Mistborn 1)? It's strongly implied that the original versions of the prophecies (not the ones modified by Ruin to make them fit Vin) predicted his height.
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A point. If Rashek is insisting that the HoA has to be someone of Pure Terris Blood, it's possible Kwaan told him. Possible, mind you; Kwaan is the one who said Alendi was the Hero.
I think, in the third book, that Sazed will end up being the HoA that saves the day at the end. Alendi quotes some of the prophesies, and I find it amusing that Sazed fits those descriptions. the headings on Chapters 8 and 21:
Quote
He shall defend their ways, yet violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it.
Quote
The Hero of Ages shall not be a man, but a force. No nation may claim him, no woman shall keep him, and no king may slay him. He shall belong to none, not even himself.
Crazy idea.
Not at all. Have you noticed the many mentions of how tall Sazed is (especially in Mistborn 1)? It's strongly implied that the original versions of the prophecies (not the ones modified by Ruin to make them fit Vin) predicted his height.
I honestly think it's going to be Elend. Especially when you consider Sazed's interpretation of height not necessarily being physical height.
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What about the part of pure terris blood? Unless he was a Hemalurgist... ;)
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Ruin didn't modify the prophecies themselves to make them fit Vin, he modified Kwaan's Steel Plate. There's a HUGE difference there. The prophecies themselves could say whatever they want, and it wouldn't matter at all. All it says is that Kwaan was "Struck by Alendi's height," Not that it is prophesied that the hero will be tall. So we really don't have any physical characteristics of the hero to go on.
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I swear it said somewhere in WoA that the hero would tower over others.. maybe it was just one of the descriptions from Kwaan. Ruin also didn't modify Kwaan's steel plate, just Sazed's copy of it.
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10 Alendi’s height struck me the first time I saw him. Here was a man who towered over others, a man who – despite his youth and his humble clothing – demanded respect.
10 Alendi’s height struck me the first time I saw him. Here was a man who was small in stature, but who seemed to tower over others, a man who demanded respect.
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10 Alendi’s height struck me the first time I saw him. Here was a man who towered over others, a man who – despite his youth and his humble clothing – demanded respect.
10 Alendi’s height struck me the first time I saw him. Here was a man who was small in stature, but who seemed to tower over others, a man who demanded respect.
That's the one
Oh and I don't know why this is bugging me but didn't Ruin just modify Sazed's rubbing of the plate? Don't have the book on me but at the end of WoA isn't he comparing them and noticing the differences, and towards the end the rubbing is what changes and talks about the holy first witness?
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Yes, Ruin modified Sazed's rubbing of the plate. I've sent the compilation of both the original and the modified version to the email on you're profile. So now you can compare to your hearts desire!
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Sweet! Thanks
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Oh Andrew I keep forgetting, but I'd like some of those compilations, if it's ok with you.
I really like the idea f Sazed being the hero! And that part about no woman can claim him! Given that translated, it's probably gender neutral, niether Vin or Elend can be the hero, the have eachother!
And Ruin didn't manipulate everything, he didn't have the time or the power too, remember how Twyndil was able to find things that contradicted the things ruin changed in the rubbing, like the hero being tall, and this came from the logbook too!
WOW, I can't get over it, Sazed does fit it all perfectly!
But then why is Vin so powerful, and why can she draw on the mist... So many Questions!
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well if no woman can claim him, its very obviously not Vin... ::)
and actually yes many of the prophecies fit Sazed perfectly. i forget, is he tall, short, or average?
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Well, technically speaking, unless Vin is lesbian, no woman could claim her either. Since we know she's not lesbian, problem solved.
Where is this no woman can claim him thing coming from? I don't recall anything of the sort.
Coma, files sent.
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Well, technically speaking, unless Vin is lesbian, no woman could claim her either. Since we know she's not lesbian, problem solved.
Where is this no woman can claim him thing coming from? I don't recall anything of the sort.
Coma, files sent.
I also don't remember that.
xP HaHa Vin a lesbian! That really makes me laugh.
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No woman shall keep him. Chapter 21 heading of Final Empire (logbook). I quoted it on page 1 of this thread.
I'd like a copy of those compilations too. :D Please.
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well if no woman can claim him, its very obviously not Vin... ::)
and actually yes many of the prophecies fit Sazed perfectly. i forget, is he tall, short, or average?
He's tall. It's one of the first things Vin notices about him; it's due to his status as both a eunuch and a Terrisman. It is mentioned several times in MB1. With many of the other Terrismen and -women dead, he may well stick out as one of the tallest people around.
It's also one of the things that really got me thinking about him as a possibility :). The "no woman may claim him" bit seems to work in a perverse sort of way as well.
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well if no woman can claim him, its very obviously not Vin... ::)
and actually yes many of the prophecies fit Sazed perfectly. i forget, is he tall, short, or average?
He's tall. It's one of the first things Vin notices about him; it's due to his status as both a eunuch and a Terrisman. It is mentioned several times in MB1. With many of the other Terrismen and -women dead, he may well stick out as one of the tallest people around.
It's also one of the things that really got me thinking about him as a possibility :). The "no woman may claim him" bit seems to work in a perverse sort of way as well.
As gruesome and cruel as that is, I'd have to agree that it fits.
I however, more like the idea of Elend being the true Hero, although he has been claimed by a woman.
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The thing about prophecies is that they don't always mean what they seem to mean. "No woman shall keep him [her]" could even be twisted to refer to Vin's mother abandoning her. But still, I vote for Sazed being the Hero of Ages.
And can I just say right now, I really hope that at least Vin, Elend, and Sazed survive MB3? It would be really sad if one or all of them dies, and excruciatingly sad if one of them has to kill another of them. If any of the main characters dies, it had better be for an awfully good reason.
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yea verily.
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Remember, Sazed says in the original language, the him/her is gender nuetral, thus it would more likely read, "No man/woman shall claim him/her," thus it can't Refer to Vin, as she has been claimed by Elend
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Just because the MB3 prologue has Marsh using a Keeper to make an Inquisitor doesn't mean it is necessary. The specifically attacked the Keepers after they announced themselves. It is more likely that using Keepers will give new Inquisitors additional powers, like a super Inquisitor, for lack of a better term.
As for the prophecies - seeing as it has been proven that Ruin changes the words to fit his plans, we really can't rely on them for any theories related to book 3, other than the fact that nothing written down on paper or stored in metalminds can be trusted.
Rashek's hatred was irrational and selfish. He was envious of the Khlenni, which probably explains why he adopted their fashion and architecture after he "ascended".
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As for the prophecies - seeing as it has been proven that Ruin changes the words to fit his plans, we really can't rely on them for any theories related to book 3, other than the fact that nothing written down on paper or stored in metalminds can be trusted.
We've also seen that Ruin's power to change prophecies was sharply limited. Basically, it focused its efforts only on the ones needed to get it free. Thus if we quote a prophecy and you want to claim that it is false, you must first show a reason for it to have been changed, rather than dismissing it outright.
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Remember, Sazed says in the original language, the him/her is gender nuetral, thus it would more likely read, "No man/woman shall claim him/her," thus it can't Refer to Vin, as she has been claimed by Elend
Well, just because him/her is gender-neutral doesn't mean that man/woman is. Many languages have gender-neutral pronouns while still having distinct words for "man" and "woman". In fact, I can't think of a language that DOESN'T have those two distinct words. And if there were such a language, and the sentence in question was in that language, it would most likely be translated "No man shall claim him" or perhaps (if a feminist was translating) "No woman shall claim her" or "No person shall claim him/her". The fact that the noun is rendered female and the pronoun male indicates that, in the original language, at least the noun has gender marking.
Then again, I'm not sure EUOL has enough linguistic sophistication to analyze it that carefully, so perhaps he did mean for that ambiguity to be there. I don't know.
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He was an English major, so I don't see why not. The only reason that ambiguity would even need to be there, is if Vin was (or is) the HoA, which we don't know. And it's not claim, it's keep.
"the Hero of Ages shall not be a man, but a force. No nation may claim him, no woman shall keep him, and no king may slay him. He shall belong to none, not even himself."
Emphasis added, of course.
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He was an English major, so I don't see why not.
Not all English majors know a lot about linguistics. Sanderson's use of dialects, in particular, leads me to believe he doesn't. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy his writing (or I wouldn't even be on this board). But being a fan doesn't mean I think he's perfect in every aspect of his craft.
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Or perhpaps they're making a new kind of inquisitors, seeing as how they probably don't have as much access to skaa mistings anymore, since they don't have the authority of the empire! It does say they have a special purpose for Skaa mistings!
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Or perhpaps they're making a new kind of inquisitors, seeing as how they probably don't have as much access to skaa mistings anymore, since they don't have the authority of the empire! It does say they have a special purpose for Skaa mistings!
Comatose, is this the thread you meant to post this in?
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He was responding to my earlier post so yes. The only "limitations" to Ruin's prophecy changes are people's memories and things written in steel. Everything else seems to be fair game, which explains all of the contradictions and paradoxes in the prophecy. It has been manipulated for over a thousand years, it may not even remotely resemble its original form.
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Agreed; how much of it was changed before Kwaan even started noticing?
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I think it would still remotely resemble it's form, if it changed too much, people with normal memories would notice as well, the only reason Kwaan noticed was his photographic memory, because the changes were too small for the other Worldbringers to pick up on with their own memories, and there metalminds had been changed.
Ruin also wouldn't have started changing things until Kwaan decided Alendi was a potential candidate for hero, and then he went with it, just like he didn't change Kwaan's rubbing until Sazed started wondering if Vin was the hero.
We also know, at least when he was trapped, Ruin could only change select things on paper and metalminds, he didn't get around to changing everything, because Twindyl found things that contradicted the rubbing.
And sorry, since it was a couple posts back I guesss I should have quoted it.
I just thought of something, maybe "No woman shall keep him," means something different than we think, Alendi, says he had MANY marriages, so although he IS married, no woman shall keep him refers to the fact that no woman has her to himself, you could bring this to refer to Elend in the sense that, Vin doesn't have him all to herself, she has to share him with the kingdom, and what if he needs to put the needs of the kingdom before her? And maybe it DOESN"T refer to Sazed, because, now that Twyndil is dead, it seems he's not letting her go. I still like Sazed as the hero, but maybe it's not as clear cut as we thought.
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Nothing is ever as clear as we think; A, we don't necessarily think clearly, and B, if it was that clear, we wouldn't have so many theories. :P
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Yesterday I wrote up a big rant about how we know there are some things that Ruin hasn't messed with. I made essentially the same points as Comatose made:
1) Ruin could not change too much too quickly. Normal people would notice. There was almost certainly a verbal tradition in addition to the Worldbringer's metalminds (people had heard the stories before). Anything that drew attention to itself was dangerous.
2) Even when Ruin did make changes, it had to make them slowly. If it could have, it would have almost certainly changed Kwaan's document to be less contradictory, more consistent. Instead, it focused its efforts on the parts that referred to itself explicitly. Given the fact that the contradictions almost led to it not being released, I think we can view this as an inherent limitation on the speed with which it could make changes. I.e. it could only make a few changes over the course of several months.
3) Kwaan himself notes that the changes were subtle. This supports #1 and #2 above. It's power was limited in clear ways.
4) Ruin is clearly not omniscient. It had to adjust the situation to the as it changed, and it didn't know how it would change. We can see this by the way changes to the "Hero of Ages" prophecy happened within Kwaan's lifetime to match Alendi---if Ruin could have seen far enough in the future, it could have matched Alendi well in advance. We also see this in the way Sazed's document was changed---it responded to events as they happened. Slowly.
5) Most important of all, it's power has not always been active in the world. Why do I say this? Here's the quote:
The prophecies have changed. They now tell Alendi that he must give up the power once he takes it. This is not what was once implied by the texts--they were more vague. And yet, the new version seems to make it a moral imperative. The texts now outline terrible consequences if the Hero of Ages takes the power for himself.
This is easily the most important part of the prophecies, the thing that Ruin absolutely had to change in order to get free. Surely it could have changed them without knowing the Hero of Ages, given that it groomed the "Hero" for the role? If it's power were as extensive as some of you seem to imply, these changes should have been the slowest changes, and done well in advance. Instead, the change happened within Kwaan's lifetime in a way he could notice. Thus we can conclude that Ruin only had a small window of opportunity to change the documents, and in fact it failed to get free that time because the window was too small.
From this we can come to some conclusions:
A) Ruin focused only on those changes most advantageous to itself, due to its limited time and ability. Most documents, even those that contradicted its version of events, were probably ignored simply because they didn't matter. Getting the hero to focus on its version would be the best use of its resources. Thus unless the prophecy needed to be changed to get Alendi or Vin to the well (or otherwise forward Ruin's plans), we can probably assume it is correct.
B) Most of the time between TLRer's ascension and MB2, Ruin probably couldn't affect the world at all. Most documents and metalminds from this time are almost certainly untouched.
C) We can probably tease out some truths from things that are sufficiently vague. There is no reason for Ruin to change them unless it sees a profit in it. Alendi's second-hand quote certainly applies here.
Thus I feel that we can make some predictions based on the prophecies. When we argue about whether something has been changed or not, the above considerations should be applied. I've been trying to find the time when Tindwyl and Sazed were discussing contradictions between different sources on the hero's height, but I can't seem to find them and don't have the time for a reread.
My $.02.
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Remember, Sazed says in the original language, the him/her is gender nuetral, thus it would more likely read, "No man/woman shall claim him/her," thus it can't Refer to Vin, as she has been claimed by Elend
This made me laugh. A lot. Mostly because of my earlier thoughts on this thread.
"No man/woman shall keep him/her"
Thus, possibilities are:
No man shall keep her
No man shall keep him
No woman shall keep him
No woman shall keep her.
Qarlin, I'll send you the compilations when I get home.
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Good job happyman, exactly my thoughts, I also don't think Ruin was necessarily aware of all these texts, and only discovered some of them as the people who he was watching discovered them, and thus could not change them until it was too late.
Here's a thought, how did Kwaan know that words set in metal would be safe from Ruin?
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Here's a thought, how did Kwaan know that words set in metal would be safe from Ruin?
That's a good question right there. I would think that because Ruin could affect the metalminds and writings it would be able to change what's in metal. Also, I brought this up on a different thread, how come Ruin has such a clear affect on Hemalurgy and Feruchemy yet seems to have no influence whatsoever over Allomancers? Could Feruchemy and Hemalurgy both be of Ruin?
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lol happyman, that is a very good post, well thought out and well reasoned. Worth significantly more than $.02
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Remember, Sazed says in the original language, the him/her is gender nuetral, thus it would more likely read, "No man/woman shall claim him/her," thus it can't Refer to Vin, as she has been claimed by Elend
This made me laugh. A lot. Mostly because of my earlier thoughts on this thread.
"No man/woman shall keep him/her"
Thus, possibilities are:
No man shall keep her
No man shall keep him
No woman shall keep him
No woman shall keep her.
Qarlin, I'll send you the compilations when I get home.
Please see my reply #45 on page 3 of this thread to eliminate half of your possibilities.
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We're getting off topic here, should I start a, "Who is the hero of Ages," thread?
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I would think that because Ruin could affect the metalminds and writings it would be able to change what's in metal.
See what I said here (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5745.msg120738#msg120738).
The topic of who the Hero of Ages is is covered a lot in this thread (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5810.60).
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Thank's Ookla, let's continue the conversation over on the thread ookla gave out, the, Vin as HOA? thread. Go back to this thread only if you want to talk more about Rashek's hatred not being misplaced.
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Remember, Sazed says in the original language, the him/her is gender nuetral, thus it would more likely read, "No man/woman shall claim him/her," thus it can't Refer to Vin, as she has been claimed by Elend
This made me laugh. A lot. Mostly because of my earlier thoughts on this thread.
"No man/woman shall keep him/her"
Thus, possibilities are:
No man shall keep her
No man shall keep him
No woman shall keep him
No woman shall keep her.
Qarlin, I'll send you the compilations when I get home.
Please see my reply #45 on page 3 of this thread to eliminate half of your possibilities.
I'm going to assume that you meant to link a thread there and didn't. At least I hope so, because reply number 45 to this thread is actually the post you quoted from me, and it's on page 4
And coma's right, we're off topic, so let us discuss more in the threads ookla so kindly provided.
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Please see my reply #45 on page 3 of this thread to eliminate half of your possibilities.
I'm going to assume that you meant to link a thread there and didn't. At least I hope so, because reply number 45 to this thread is actually the post you quoted from me, and it's on page 4
Sorry, I meant #35. Oops.