Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: SarahG on April 29, 2008, 08:21:01 PM
-
Why can words written in metal be trusted, more than words written on paper or in a metalmind? I would think that Ruin or whoever is trying to warp the prophecy could just melt down the steel. If Ruin itself didn't have that ability, it could make the Inquisitors or someone else do it.
On a related note, I think it's very sneaky of Sanderson to have distorted prophecies and metalminds like this, especially along with the Ministry's propaganda. The combination means we can't trust anything any of the characters say about the Ascension or the Deepness or the Hero of Ages or about any other history or religion. This allows all the rampant speculation in this forum, while ensuring that none of us can be sure our theories are correct. We just have to wait for MB3, and anything in it that contradicts what came before can be explained by Ruin's corruption of metalminds.
-
That is not entirely correct. There are certain experiences in the book that help us deduce certain things to be true. Also, the writings on the iron plate are not changed, so we know that they are true. The problem with a lot of theories on this forum is that, since they can't be validated yet, people will choose to either ignore certain facts or just come up with an idea without checking to see if what they said is true. Even if they do believe a theory is correct, they may still come up with something else, just for fun.
-
It's how we keep our creative edge, by posing ridiculous theories despite evidence to the contrary.
-
Precisely.
-
I agree with you both. But I still don't get why the metal plate couldn't just be melted or filed down.
-
It must be that the power Ruin uses to change letters on a page or thoughts stored in metal minds can not manipulate the physical appearance of metal.
-
Here's what I posted in the Hemalurgy thread:
As of book 2, there are two things we know Ruin can affect directly: Words written down on paper (or paperlike material) and words recorded in metalminds. That he can alter metalminds but not metal seems like a contradiction unless you think of it as a macro/micro question. Moving a few loosely-bonded atoms around on parchment is apparently much easier than reshaping metal (speaking as if book 2 is all I've read). Also, how do metalminds work? For the sake of argument, let's rule out straight "magic" and consider other options: How about quantum computers? If the memory inside metalminds is encoded in quantum bits, then changing it is simply a matter of flipping a few quantum bits, which are much tinier than the atoms involved in moving ink/charcoal around on parchment. It may be that it's even easier for him to affect metalmind memory than paper memory.
(Note: None of this is inside information, but is just the theory I developed while reading MB2 the first time.)
Yes, melting the metal would erase the words, but how much direct power over people has Ruin had during the time he's been trapped in the well?
-
Thanks, Ookla. That makes sense, more or less.
-
Actually that makes perfect sense, though it makes me wonder more now into the physics of how all the other metalminds work... Digressing though, now that it's escaped (assuming it was the one trapped), does it have the force behind it to alter things like steel now? And why wouldn't it just order an inquisitor to do it? The slab was right under their home base...
-
Maybe the ruin has a phobia of metal :P maybe the lord ruler spun his milk so bad he is scared of metal, or.....maybe not, yea definitely not :D
-
Ookla, Are you saying that you believe he influenced people to subconsciously change what they wrote or thought in metalminds? I always thought his control was more focused on the objects themselves.
-
The way I'm interpreting what he's saying is that Ruin possess a little bit of ability to manipulate physical things, and that the levels at which you can easily alter simple carbon atoms floating freely on a page or bump the spin of an electron the right way in a metalmind, are well within it's ability, but that altering something so fundamentally solid as an iron lattice would be beyond it.
-
That's what I got the first time he posted it. It was what he added on at the bottom that confused me a little bit.
-
I say it's because Ruin lacks spoon-bending powers.
(The reference here being that spoons are metal. So he is not a spoon-bender.)
-
OK, assuming Ruin couldn't change the words written in steel, what interest do the Inquisitors have in preserving it? I wouldn't have thought of them as wishing to safeguard the true history of Alendi, Rashek, and Kwaan over the past millennium.
-
OK, assuming Ruin couldn't change the words written in steel, what interest do the Inquisitors have in preserving it? I wouldn't have thought of them as wishing to safeguard the true history of Alendi, Rashek, and Kwaan over the past millennium.
That is something I've been wondering too. Undoubtedly, that will be a major plot point in Mistborn3.
Ookla brings up a good point, though not the same one as his micro/macro theory. Ruin does not have infinite power in MB2, but it has a lot of it. It is horrifying to think how powerful it is after being freed.
-
Think of hypnosis. It's (supposedly) easy to get people to do the kinds of things they would be willing to do anyway. It's harder to get people to do things that go against their nature. The inquisitors wanted more power anyway, so influencing them to make their power play wouldn't have been hard. But getting them to go melt down a metal plate they don't care about at all and no one has thought about in centuries?
OK, assuming Ruin couldn't change the words written in steel, what interest do the Inquisitors have in preserving it? I wouldn't have thought of them as wishing to safeguard the true history of Alendi, Rashek, and Kwaan over the past millennium.
What other metal plate have we seen, and who put it there?
-
Wasn't there a metal map in TLR's cache ? I don't have my MB1 with me.
-
Yeah, Vintage, I am pretty sure that there was a metal map in TLR's cache.
-
Yes, there was, it had a city circled on it (can't recall name...). I can only guess that something equally important as the original slab lay in that location.
-
It was Statlin City, and most of us believe that is where the Atium cache is. As for the Kwaan plate, I would think TLR would require his special servants are reminded of what really occurred. He is trying to prevent history from repeating itself, and I am sure there is or was some part of him that wanted to honor Kwaan for figuring out the truth.
-
Somehow, I wonder why TLR would need a metal map to remind himself where he's hiding his own atium. I doubt that very much. But it has to be important enough... If the Well of Ascension had Ruin, could it be its adversarie's center location ? Preservation ? What do we know for sure about Statlin ?
-
That it existed at some time?
-
The city may have some other significance, but since the Atium has not been found yet, it's as good a place as any to assume that it is there. It's possible that TLR was afraid he may eventually forget things. He would not trust to use metalminds, nor would he write anything down on paper for the same reason. Maybe he originally feared his own thoughts could be manipulated, so he etched them in steel to be sure he wouldn't forget. In any case, it's one of the only ways to get a dead man to talk, so it is convenient for EUOL to put it there as an "oh by the way" clue.
-
Unless the map was not drawn by TLR, of course. Could it not be Kwaan's doing again ? I did wonder quite a bit of time if TLR could not be, in fact, Kwaan. Does Brandon confirms this positively in his annotations ? Because the so-called Rashek never confirmed it was he, and it would then be logical that Kwaan would have left the writings in steel in the cavern, would have kept remembrance of Rashek's possession and also of Alendi's book.
If it interests anyone, I made a comparative table between the actual writing in steel and what Sazed had translated with its different subsequent alteration i.e. the Holy First Witness - just for study purposes though, hey ?
-
Brandon does confirm that TLR is, in fact, Rashek.
-
In my opinion, that would be way TOO much of a twist, for the major twist from MB1 to turn out to be false. Authors can only throw in so many surprises before their readers start feeling manipulated and betrayed.
-
And Vin sees a packman when whe uses malatium, Kwaan was a holy man, and TLR responded to the name "Rashek. It was definatly him.
I think there's something important about Statlin City. At first I thought that that was where the atium was, but the lord ruler carved it into steel, meaning he didn't want Ruin to influence it. It seems that the cache was kind of a place jsut in case he was de3feated, there was food left to feed the people in cans, and the map. It seems oddly compassionate of him, but it could be true, couldn't it?
-
Is it possible that Preservation had some effect on him as well? One would think that Preservation would want him to stockpile food and keep the knowledge on the map whole.
-
I don't see why presrvation would care abou the cans or the map. Because of the nature of presrvation, I think presrvation would be very reluctant to intervene in the world as Ruin does because it would hate change, and be interefering it would be cahnging htings, I think Preservation only intervenes when absolutely necessary to counter Ruin.
-
Preservation does not mean static. You preserve something, usually life, and not the means of life. If change is necessary to preserve life, I do not think it impossible for Preservation to make changes.
TLR being eternal could have stock pile only for him. Maybe he meant to bury himself with Ruin for the time it was necessary or by a mean of escaping destruction once Ruin would have been freed... just rambling. I really don't know, but one thing I am sure. He stocked piled food for himself alone. I don't see him sharing.
-
Then why so much? And why the map? Surely if it's that important, he would rmemeberi t on his own, and not need to worry about his metal minds being changed. The map was to show someone else that statlin city was important.
-
But the question is : Did the Lord Ruler made that steel map ? For all we know, it could also have been Kwaan. And so much because it could be weeks, months, maybe years before he could come out.
-
Comatose, if you had something that important to you, you wouldn't write it down, just to make sure you would remember? TLR knew he had discovered a way to live indefinitely, but he was in uncharted territory. He didn't know how his mind would be affected by living so long. Age affects your memory, and even very important things can be forgotten or mixed up sometimes. Rashek most likely didn't have the same ability to remember that his uncle had, so he had a map etched out with the name of a place he did not want to forget about.
-
The Kwaan theory is a good one, but how much modern detail did the map have? One of the downsides of EUOL's writing style is that we really don't know much about outside of Luthadel, if we knew something more about Statlin City, we could cook up a slightly less air-brained theory about it. What is most likely though, is it's something we haven't even considered, and it's almost definitely not the Atium cache - Brandon isn't that transparent.
-
He can be sometimes. Besides, sometimes it is best to hide something in plain sight, for he knows that we will believe it to be too easy. I don't believe the Atium cache is that big a deal anymore. Vin found a way to fight without Atium, and the battle for it changed once the kings pledged to Elend. I am by no means saying that they are going to just waltz right in and take it, but I am pretty sure it is there.