Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Iahawki99 on April 21, 2008, 04:00:39 AM
-
As I am re-reading The Well of Ascension a thought keeps popping into my head. What if Vin is not the HOA. What if Elend is? The writing that Sazed is translating sounds as much like Elend as it does like Vin. Am I way off here? Anyone else think this is even remotely possible? If it is then this would be a pretty cool twist, but I thought I would ask some of our more smarter(lol) readers their opinions.
Again this is just a thought that keeps popping into my head. I could be way, way, way off here. There could be so much "evidence" that Vin is the HOA as to make this post quite rediculous(sp?) but i can't recall reading anything that jumped out at me about it. Anyone have any prophecies or anything else that you can recall to prove my point wrong?
Not sure if I want to be proven wrong but I am curious to know what everyone thinks.
-
In a Well of Ascension annotation, I remember Brandon saying that it was difficult to write the part where Vin thinks she is the HoA. He said he wanted it to seem plausible from her perspective, but at the same time, not absolutely confirming it for certain.
So, Vin isn't necessarily the Hero.
-
I have to say I don't think so. Both "Hero"s we've read have been able to since the well. If i remember correctly (I haven't re-read them recently) Vin actually meantions to him the pulses she feels, and he says he doesn't notice them.
-
I will preface this by saying that I have not read any of the annotations yet so I apologize if there is information in it that I am not aware of to answer these questions I pose.
But isn't she noticing the pulses are really far away and not at all where it actually ends up being? Doesn't that imply she is being led around on some wild goose chase. I am trying to remember if that is correct as I type this.
Plus just b/c you feel the pulses doesn't mean you are the HOA does it? The reason I say that is b/c in Sazed latest translation, whomever is writing it seems to have changed his mind about Alendi(I think that is his name) being the HOA. Whatever reasons he once had for supporting him obviously changed. So maybe hearing the pulses does not mean that you are the HOA, just that you are being used by The Deepness to further its own goals. Or it could just be that The Deepness is feeling threatened by Alendi and is manipulating the Terrisman writer in order to destroy him before he can kill it I suppose.
Now I am confusing myself lol.
-
I already mentionned the fact that Elend could very well be. Not only because Brandon seems vague about it(now, I haven't read all of the annotations, but a good part up to now), but simply because there is too many whys not answered in regard to him. Some of the main ones are : Why does he have to learn to be a leader - well, yes, anyone might have done the job beside this young puppy ; Why does he need to be a Full Mistborn for - the attact of the Mist Spirit seems to well coordinate just to be a coincidence - it had several occasions of killing Elend when Vin was busy rescuing Luthadel if it was its real purpose. Moreover, there was to be glory for the one who would discover the Hero and what more of it if it comes not only to discover the Hero but to give him the reason to show himself ? Thus liberating the well spirit to better strike it ?
The question to ask is "Why ?" A lot of life mystery are solved only by answering this very simple question. It would only be logical that a lot of mystery would be solved by answering this simple question at looking at the Well of Ascension. Mind you, we won't know for sure before Mistborn 3 is out. Everything in between is simple divagation (or puzzle type of mystery).
-
I would say that Alendi and Vin weren't really the HoAs, just because it's all an intense ploy by Ruin to free himself. The question is, then, what is the Hero actually supposed to do, before Ruin did all that toying with the prophecies?
(If you don't know about Ruin, read the Ruin and Preservation topic on page two of the BS forum).
-
More to the point, if the Hero prophecy is entirely made up to by Ruin, then there really isn't a Hero of Ages. Irrespective of that, Vin is the central character of this story. I feel safe in saying that if there is a Hero of Ages, it is Vin.
-
I do not think the prophecy was made entirely by ruin otherwise there would have been no necessity, no need of corrupting it. And it was changed and not only to make Alendi fit into it, not only his character, but also what he should be doing. If the Well's power could have been liberated differently, it would have remain as vague, but maybe the time is getting dearest to.
-
Also, Ruin doesn't actually "create" things, per se. He manipulates so he can destroy more. It wouldn't be his nature to completely create fake prophecies... but making them "more" fake, yes. He seems clever enough to be able to do that.
-
How do we know it's not in It's nature? If it could take a story like "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far, away" and change it to "It's far past time for this galaxy to be destroyed", why couldn't it slowly plant a seed of a prophecy. It even has the advantage of being able to change it at will, so It doesn't even have to be vague enough for people to think a part has been fulfilled.
-
I like the Elend theory, it has merit, but i still think there' something special about vin, she's just too powerful, a point that has been well observed by many characters in the book, and I think it's more than just her earing. She isn't just powerful, she's skillful at allomancy, she is able to pick it all up easily, like she learned it before.
But the Elend thing is just such a great twist, it's hard to say no to.
What if there is more than one hero?
-
But isn't she noticing the pulses are really far away and not at all where it actually ends up being?
In the first drafts of the book, the Well was not located under Kredik Shaw. Instead, it was in the north like everyone assumed it was. For good narrative and plot reasons, Brandon's agent (or was it his editor?) suggested changing the location of the well. This was a really good idea; the last part of the book reads much more smoothly now than it did in the first drafts.
So the stuff about Vin sensing pulses far to the north had to be re-explained a bit. They weren't really far to the north; they were coming from Kredik Shaw the whole time, and Vin just happened to be south of Kredik Shaw most of the time. They felt distant at first only because the pulses were so weak at first. Still, it's a little bit more clunky now, and I don't recall any hint in the story that Vin notices any change in the direction of the pulses when she's in different parts of the city.
When Vin and Elend go north of the city, she starts feeling the pulses from the south (the direction of Kredik Shaw) and it really confuses her. ^_^
-
Really? That would have made quite a different story I think, had the well ACTUALLY been in the north.
I quite like how the well ends up being under kredik shaw, and it definately makes sense. That would have changed the ending a lot.
Although, it would have changed the book just as much as clubs being a smoker instead of a seeker.
-
The end result was more or less the same, just with some things in a different order. It works better the way it is in the published version.
-
And it made a really good twist!
-
Back to the subject. I am tired, so very tired. Sore throat and what not, so I just cant think much. But...
I was kind of curious today and wanted to know if Vintage was also an english word. Yes, I was thinking about myself. I just love doing it ;D - by the way it is and it means the same thing - but this is not my point. While I was reading my little hamster which I gained in Dune was keeping on running into my head. And these were my thoughts.
Now Brandon took time to write in his annotations that every member of the crew had a nickname. With his marvellously crooked mind - whats his saying again ? There is always another secret - What about if Vin is already her nickname, her full name only known by her poor Mom ? What could "Vin" hide ? So I already held the english dictionary and started to look and I froze nearly at the very start. One of the very first names that starts with "Vin" is Vinculum (you understand why everybody would prefer calling her Vin ). And what does Vinculum means ? Well, I will just give you the link to Wikipedia. After you read it, pass your mouse on the post to read what I was thinking. Don't cheat. Cheat is from Ruin...
Vinculum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinculum_(symbol))
So you read ? What do you think ? I know I am crazy, but isn't it the very spirit of Mistborn (to be convince, read the last paragraph again) ? And doesn't it make it logical that Vin would not be the Hero of Ages but bring people to him ? Read again the first paragraph...
-
I don't know about that one... what I got from "Vinculum" is that it is used to denote infinity (sort of--at least infinite decimals). Infinite power, maybe?
-
Besides from infinity it also denotes some kind of repetition. The decimals continues in the same order. A fine thought for WoT, but i do not think it is applicable here...
-
Whoa, let's not get all 6 degrees on this stuff. Basically, Vin has been the main character's name for a long time. the original story is quite different from the current Mistborn version, and Vin was a different gender, as well. I don't think the name choice is prophetic in any way. As far as we know, EUOL could have seen a poster for The Fast and the Furious, and the name Vin stuck with him. We could also assume that VINdicate, VINdictive, diVINe, and inVINcible, could also describe Vin's character to a degree.
-
If there really is a hero of the ages and it's not just a ploy to get folk to open up strange wells, then perhaps Kelsier could technically maybe have also qualified? as the person who way back when who was considered as having been the hero of ages was offed and replaced by the Lord Ruler, Kelsier could also supposedly be as much of a hero of ages (as the very original candidate)?
Okay, my logic is probably not sounding so clear at this point of night...
Anyway, I'm not putting too mcuh stock in the idea of there being one true hero of ages.
although... it is the third book's title... but that just means it's been on the characters minds... so... I really want the book to come out now... I don't know how much more speculating I can do.
Maybe we should make I-Spy styled bets for random things we theorize will pop up in H.o.A.... that could be a cool thread.
-
Well, I am afraid (no, no, not really) that the Amazon.com description confirms that Elend is the Hero of Ages. In all cases, Kelsier maybe could have fitted the description, but since he is of the past...
What amazes me though, is that after killing Alendi, how did Rashek thought he could be that hero. I almost thought, actually, that it was more in the thought of Kwaan to make a move like Rashek did than himself.
-
The only thing that blurb confirms is that Elend and Vin can't discuss how to deal with Ruin because it could find out about their plans. To me, this means that she is going to act alone. Here's something to chew on: Will Vin and/or Elend die at the end of book 3?
-
In reality, I don't like theorizing what the Hero is or isn't. That's almost like crossing a line... once we know what the Hero is really supposed to do, then the whole series will click into place. I for one don't want to be surprised about that one--that, and I really have no idea. Maybe I'll feel differently if I get a proper revelation regarding the Hero.
(And strangely, so begins my brain trying to create a revelation for it)
In any case, what the Amazon description successfully does is confirm that Ruin is the name of the Well-spirit, and that it is also the Deepness. We already knew this, but at least Brandon can't complain if I link new TWG members to the Ruin and Preservation topic. I always secretly thought he didn't like me for figuring that one out and revealing it to everyone.
Also, the blurb tells us essentially what Vin and Elend's plotlines will be, or at least foreshadows it.
Dying: There will be death. I don't know who or how, but people will die. I mean... we have an omniscent being killing people. That screams for sudden deaths.
I would say that it also mentions that there are earthquakes, but I really think that that is a topic for Ruin and Preservation (that topic is on Page Two, by the way).
-
You can't always consider marketing copy or Amazon descriptions as actual canon. Just sayin'.
-
That is true. To be completely honest, when I first read that blurb I thought Chaos wrote it. By the way, thank you though for making a comment that manages to make everyone second-guess themselves without actually giving anything away. You're going to give poor Chaos a stroke. :(
-
Yeah, sheesh. It's not like my blood pressure is already through the roof. I'm literally on the verge of a stroke anyways.
-
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! AMAZON, WHY DO YOU DO THIS TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think this confirms elend is the hero, it just says he has to save his kingdom.
OCTOBER.... I WANT YOU NOW!!!
-
Emperor Elend Venture hopes to find clues left behind by the Lord Ruler that will allow him to save the world
Hum, Comatose, it does say the world.
Just teasing ! Don't hit me !
By the way, I find this quote on Amazon.ca and Chapters Indigo which are competitors. It does seem to be coming from Tor...
-
I assume by your teasing that you got my meaning.
Anyway, we are forgetting something about Vin through all of this.
Everyone's saying her power just comes from her pure blood line, adn other than her hemalurgic ability to pierce copper clouds, she is a normal mistborn, and that elend is probably the hereo, but wait,
Vin can draw on the mists with the earring out, we all gloss over this point but there is something very special about Vin, noone else can do what she did, except for perhaps the lord ruler.
-
I agree. I also remember that was it Ore Seur or Tensoon that said that she seemed to have the Mistborn powers of old ? I'm re-reading. I will find the passage. But he meant Mistborn of the firsts generations. It seems that power got diluted over time. Now, if this is true, and somehow I do not doubt it, it would mean that Elend has now a power in him unknown to most of his time. He is the new pure blood line. He might be even more powerful than Vin, for what we know. Only speculating of course... till october.
-
But Vin can still pull on the mists, which as far as we know has NEVER been done before. What's so special about her?
-
Well if Tensoon (let's say it's him) said that she seemed to have the Mistborn powers of Old maybe that is what they could do then. I truly do not know what Tensoon could remember. If only Vind had digged into him then...
-
In think he was referring to her power, I don't think he knew about her pulling on the mists.
-
In the first drafts of the book, the Well was not located under Kredik Shaw. Instead, it was in the north like everyone assumed it was. For good narrative and plot reasons, Brandon's agent (or was it his editor?) suggested changing the location of the well. This was a really good idea; the last part of the book reads much more smoothly now than it did in the first drafts.
So the stuff about Vin sensing pulses far to the north had to be re-explained a bit. They weren't really far to the north; they were coming from Kredik Shaw the whole time, and Vin just happened to be south of Kredik Shaw most of the time. They felt distant at first only because the pulses were so weak at first. Still, it's a little bit more clunky now, and I don't recall any hint in the story that Vin notices any change in the direction of the pulses when she's in different parts of the city.
When Vin and Elend go north of the city, she starts feeling the pulses from the south (the direction of Kredik Shaw) and it really confuses her. ^_^
I was looking at the map recently and noticed that Keep Venture is not south of Kredik Shaw, it's west. Maybe in the revision, Sanderson should have removed all references to the direction she feels the pulses from. Either that, or change the map (which would probably be harder, since I assume MB1 was already out at that point).
-
MB1 wasn't out when these changes were made to MB2, but the city map also isn't meant to be taken as canon.
It does seem to be cheating a bit though.
-
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! AMAZON, WHY DO YOU DO THIS TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think this confirms elend is the hero, it just says he has to save his kingdom.
OCTOBER.... I WANT YOU NOW!!!
Red October standing by!
Sorry, I couldn't help it, my friends and I have a running gag involving Sean Connery, the Death Star, the Red October, and the tune of Yellow Submarine.
Anways, nothing to see here, continue on.
-
It does seem to be cheating a bit though.
I agree, why even have a map in the book if the things it depicts are actually in different locations, relative to each other? Unless there was a plot twist where the mist spirit moves Keep Venture to another part of Luthadel (like when the Dark One moved rooms and walls and corridors around in the Caemlyn Palace and the White Tower). In that case, the map would be a clue as to what Luthadel will eventually look like when Ruin is done. :)
-
Do you really think Ruin has that much power? I'd say that's a little extreme.
-
As do I, although I am sure EUOL appreciates your creativity in helping to resolving this slight errata issue.
-
Do you really think Ruin has that much power? I'd say that's a little extreme.
I think it's extreme too. I meant the theory as a joke, but I obviously didn't make that clear. Tone of voice is hard to express online.
-
Right. I bet you were up all night thinking about it ;) You won't rest until "The Mistborn of Time" is written. ;) ;D
-
Sorry darxbane, now that you've found out the secret plot, we have to kill you.
-
Yep, darxbane is dead. Slain by a time-traveling Mistborn assasin.
-
I've always been slightly bugged by Keep Venture's location as well.
In the first book, at the beginning when Kell goes to steal the Atium from there, he leaves Cammon's lair and head's north.
however, Cammon's lair is west of Keep Venture. (I think those are the directions, either way, if you read that part, things don't line up).
-
Kelsier could have taken the scenic route. Or possibly, keep venture is northeast of camon's lair. There are ways to make that work.
-
Do you really think Ruin has that much power? I'd say that's a little extreme.
I think it's extreme too. I meant the theory as a joke, but I obviously didn't make that clear. Tone of voice is hard to express online.
Oh no, you made it clear. I enjoy taking things literally when they aren't meant to be taken as such. Its one of my hobbies.
-
Yep, darxbane is dead. Slain by a time-traveling Mistborn assasin.
Dude, time-traveling Mistborn would be frickin' awesome... not only would you fly through the night as magic-wielding ninjas, you could go back in time to kill your enemies. That would be the best ninja ever.
Darxbane, RIP.
-
Ah ! Mais comme aux dernières nouvelles, il nous parlait d'Elantris... je le soupçonne de ne pas être véritablement mort. Enfin ! Espérons que Raoden trouvera quelque chose pour l'occuper.
-
Ah ! Mais comme aux dernières nouvelles, il nous parlait d'Elantris... je le soupçonne de ne pas être véritablement mort. Enfin ! Espérons que Raoden trouvera quelque chose pour l'occuper.
Je suis d'accord. Peut-être il s'occupera en organizant les livres dans la bibliothèque sousterraine - et en découvrant les secrets la-dedans.
(Je sais que mon français n'est pas aussi fluent que ton englais. Je m'excuse.)
-
Man, it sucks to find out your dead from a forum post. Oh well, I guess it beats hearing the news from some sniveling pshychic 10 year old who strings you along for months before finally breaking the news to you. :) by the way, what is up with talking about Elantris on a Mistborn thread? In French no less! I feel like I'm 8 again and my mother and grandmother are talking about my Christmas presents right in front of me! Of course, I know enough to get the gist of the conversation now, and I can't resist using a web translator to get the rest, so just start a new thread already! :P
Ha! I just checked and I am not dead! Apparently the time-traveling ninja Mistborn kills my 75 years from now, after I steal his 19 year-old fiancee from him. 105 is long enough to live anyway. :-*
-
Oups ! Sorry guys ! I hadn't realize I wrote the previous post in french lol I would have never expected to find anyone here to speak french though ! I'll send you an e-mail Sarah !
Well, no, not quite dead Darxbane. We were saying that since the last post, you were speaking about Elantris, we thought that you had become an Elantrian and Sarah thought that Raoden could use you in the secret library to help him sort out secrets. ;D
Well, if they have a computer, it's great lol
-
I'm waiting for my future time-traveling Mistborn self to come back in time to tell me that I'd be rich, handsome, and have a concubine. Get it together, future self! Jeez, the nerve of these time-traveling Mistborn.
Maybe darxbane, you are like an Elantrian. Dead, but you don't know it, lol...
We really need to get back on topic... so, I'll begin with a theory:
I came up with great story idea... about a prophet and things. That got me thinking: someone had to create the Terris Prophecies to begin with. Perhaps a Worldbringer did... who knows? However, Brandon constantly refers to the "mythology" of the Mistborn world, where there is two forces in the world and there is only a single mist spirit. Obviously, we know this refers to Ruin and Preservation.
I don't know about you, but I don't think the Terris Prophecies are created by a Worldbringer. It would kind of be anticlimactic. Some people think that Ruin completely fabricated the Prophecies, but I don't think so. A Feruchemist would know if in his coppermind, he suddenly found a giant thing of prophecies.
"Dude, dude! Guess what!"
"Yeah?"
"I discovered the Terris Prophecies in my coppermind, man! We're saved."
"You're on crack."
Obviously, something like that would be rather suspicious. The same with Ruin creating a prophecy from manipulating paper. Say you have an empty book, and then the next day, it turns into a whole book of prophecies. That would be equally freaky, and make people want to burn the book.
Let's imagine, then, that Ruin wants to destroy the world, because that's what it does. Now, because the Prophecies existed before the Ascension, and that it mentions the Deepness and stopping it, we can presume that the Deepness existed before in some form.
This is all supposition, but what if Ruin originally tried to destroy the world with the Deepness as a direct way to destroy the world? There could be a time where there were no Prophecies. Something had to spawn these prophecies to begin with.
If the Prophecies, before this "basic-Ruin" didn't realize it would be more efficient to manipulate them, had an innate knowledge on how to defeat the Deepness/Ruin, this suggests a more enigmatic force, a force which is more knowledgable about the whole dichotomy between Ruin and Preservation. Presumably, this points to Preservation originally creating the Prophecies.
Now, Kwaan's account tells us a lot about how the Prophecies are manipulated. First of all, the Terrismen already had a vague knowledge of the Prophecies (because Ruin couldn't just create a string of prophecies without scaring people, regardless of whether he has the power to do so or not). Kwaan calls the fact that Alendi must, supposedly, go free the power like a "moral imperative". But before, he says "they were more vague." This is extraordinarily important. It means that there was a time--very recently, if Kwaan can remember how it originally was--when the prophecies were not being manipulated.
Follow my reasoning: if the Prophecies had been manipulated for hundreds or thousands of years, they would be so corrupted that Kwaan would have no question that Alendi would need to give up the power. Ruin would be subtly changing them for a long time into the Prophecies were perfectly correct for Ruin's intentions.
However, it's not. This gives me further reason to believe Ruin didn't create the Prophecies, because Kwaan wouldn't realize the manipulation if it happened centuries ago (remember, Feruchemists didn't live forever, so Kwaan couldn't have lived for centuries). This points to a recent event that somehow triggered Ruin to manipulate the Prophecies. The Deepness also appears to be a recent event, or else the Deepness would already have destroyed the world.
Something that we don't even know about yet, before the Ascension, happened to trigger Ruin to both of these things in the span of one lifetime (Kwaan's time). As our understanding of Ruin and the Lord Ruler goes, the Lord Ruler did something to weaken substantially Ruin. No Lord Ruler and Ruin gets stronger. Obviously, in Kwaan's time, there was no Lord Ruler, so ostensibly, Ruin could go out any time, summon the Deepness, and manipulate the Prophecies.
He didn't. Now, Ruin is our ultimate incarnation of destruction: if it could destroy the world, it would. It wouldn't wait for centuries until this time to unleash the Deepness unless: 1. It couldn't. Or, 2. There is a better reason to destroy the world then (?).
Something is going on here... something far greater than we know.
(By the way, I think this is as good of topic as any for Hero of Ages and Terris Prophecies)
-
I have one wrinkle for your theory, Chaos. If Ruin's power was related to the Well's millenial schedule, then it would make sense that his influence over the prophecy would increase as the well's power increased. There is evidence of this with Vin's sensing of the Well. It slowly gets stronger throughout the second book, until she can feel it even without burning bronze, and then it continues to gain strength. At the same time, the mists become more and more prevalent during the day, and more people are killed by it.
As for the prophecy's origin, Ruin could have taken a relevant story and begun to adapt it to a prophecy. All you need to do is convince the right people, and they will convince everyone else. After a couple of generations, the belief becomes a part of society.
Sarah/Vintage, I appreciate the confidence. If I were an Elantrian, I would have to be a researcher, because I am fairly certain I wouldn't be able to draw an Aon to save my a$$. :D I should be done reading Elantris by next week sometime, so I won't be worried about spoilers by then.
-
That is an excellent point. I had forgotten about the well's millennial schedule. However, I wonder why the Well would be on a schedule in the first place?
-
Why is the sky blue ? Why do we breath ? This is nature, no need for a particular reason at least for this point.
Didn't Sazed said something in MB1 about prophecies being created out of hope ? You need prophecy to help you believe in a better future for yourself and/or your children. But... the present has to be lowsy to start with. You have to be desperate in a way. I agree that the Deepness is a recent event in Kwaan's life mainly because of this :
I sense a craftiness behind these changes, a manipulation subtle and brilliant... It is pulling him toward the Well of Ascension, where the millennial power has gathered. I can only guess that it sent the Deepness as a method of making mankind more desperate, of pushing us to do as it wills.
Now, if the Deepness had been there long before, Kwaan would not have written anything like this, right ? And I agree also about something happening to trigger Ruin into action. The rise of the Well of Ascension ? Could it be sufficient ?
Moreover, talking about subtlety, the text changed even during Sazed's time. When he translated the rubbing with Thindwill, they had translated this text :
There was a place for me, in the lore of the Anticipation – I thought myself the Announcer, the prophet foretold to discover the Hero of Ages. Renouncing Alendi then would have been to renounce my new position, my acceptance, by the others.
During the attack on Luthadel, a skaa called Sazed the "Holy First Witness". When he came back after everything, thinking of Thindwill, he started to read what they had done together and he stumbled on this :
There was a place for me, in the lore of the Anticipation – I thought myself the Holy First Witness, the prophet foretold to discover the Hero of Ages. Renouncing Alendi then would have been to renounce my new position, my acceptance, by the others.
Now talk to me about subtlety again ! And so Sazed started to think like Kwaan : he had serious, very serious doubts. It wasn't the only change. There were a few just from the rubbing without implying directly Sazed, just so subtle, but it changed the whole perspective. Euol is really... evil... ;D
After a night of sleep...
Sleep does wonder, I tell you. When I fell asleep, I was still wondering what could have make the creation of those prophecies possible. And this morning, I woke up with a possibility. So, the Deepness was something new, something to force people to act, the Well as a millenial cycle... so it must have seen quite a bit of Heroes yet and... I couldn't believe it when I read it, but Vin had the answer. While she was pounding about the Lord Ruler, the Well and the power, she asked herself this question : If the hero was not to take the power for himself unless the world would be destroyed, and that we know that Rashek did exactly that, how come the world still exist after 1000 years ? So here are my thoughts.
Millenial cycles have succeeded one after the other. Ruin never got to lure any of the heroes that raised amongst the people, so it got craftier with each raise of power. Decisions were taken by other types of "ruler". What might happen is that most of the heroes died because they were not feruchemist and therefore could not store age. Nevertheless, they had power to create new things once every 1000 years. The world was balancing more or less happily. The mist, for instance, could have been there before the Lord Ruler as much as the Mist Spirit (being the incarnation of Preservation). But the Deepness isn't the mist itself, it is something that looks like the mist but was created by Ruin just to confuse people a little more, to make them desperate, to make them distrust the mist. But the thing is that as crafty as it gets, Ruin always lost because it was overdoing it. Whatever happenned with Kwaan that he had to start doubting ? Of course, the Hero of Ages would fit the prophecies, but he saw the prophecies changing. The very same thing is happening to Sazed (read the above quote). So he starts to suspect. It will lead him back to the Conventical where he will loose faith while reading the last sentence on the steel plate itself. In leaving Alendi's journal and not allowing Sazed to read the steel plate right in the conventical, it was getting its new stage ready for the biggest show of the millenium. Remember, Marsh was suddenly in a rush to leave although they had been there already for 8 days with no apparent rush. Do we have to remember who Marsh was listening to ? Sazed then takes the Rubbing, a modifiable pity thing. Everything is in place for the final act. It is confirm. The power has to be left and not taken by the hero. And here comes Vin who wants to do things right.
What do you think ?
-
Or perhaps, the well of ascension existed before Ruin was imprisoned there. Perhaps the well simply had the power of creation, and then Preservation used this millenial power to trap Ruin.
-
I just realized something. Alendi's logbook cannot be trusted, perhaps not ever, but especially after the Lord Ruler was killed. It's made of paper, so Ruin could be manipulating it this whole time...
-
We can trust it as much as the steel plate confirms it and it does confirms some of it, especially regarding Rashek animosity. But you are right, we cannot trust anything on paper. Maybe that is one of the reason why the Lord Ruler left it out of his incubating room.
-
Exactly. Besides, EUOL wouldn't keep pointing out the importance of the epigraphs if they were lies, would he?
-
Exactly. Besides, EUOL wouldn't keep pointing out the importance of the epigraphs if they were lies, would he?
Well, unless he was purposely trying to mislead us...
-
I doubt that. That wouldn't be nearly as much fun as him giving us the missing piece and all of us going "oh, now I see! I can't believe I didn't think of that before!"
-
The twist - it was all a dream.
-
Well, of course, the logbook in the epigraphs is accurate. I'm saying we can't really trust whatever it said in MB2.
-
Did any of it change between the two books? We can always go back and check.
-
I was under the impression, reading MB1, that the logbook was way bigger than the extracts Brandon left us to read. But, why not. I'll check that too.
-
I was under the impression, reading MB1, that the logbook was way bigger than the extracts Brandon left us to read. But, why not. I'll check that too.
Yeah, thats the same impression that I got also about that logbook. It would be great if Brandon would get around to publishing the rest, or more of, that logbook when he gets the time to do so after completing MOL and his other book projects.
-
I compiled all of Alendi's logbook that we could find in MB1. Hum... I still don't have my precious copy back, so I bought a paper cover for the mean time lol I am now ready to reread (a 3rd time lol) MB2 to compare what Vin is getting out of there... but like Chaos said, if Kwaan's steel plate doesn't confirm it, I would not put too much trust into it. Maybe the logbook served only for one purpose. To tell us that a certain Alendi existed once...
-
The log book entries that are missing are mostly things about the weather and army statistics and the like, Vin says the book is mostly made up of that, and the sections we read are ALendi's internal ramblings
I think the log book can be trusted, and I didn't notice any change, I could be wrong though, but I'm pretty sure there wasn't, I'm also sure that the book can be trusted throughout book one.
I keep remembering the epigraph before the ebilogue of MB1, it seems out of place. I'm pretty sure I wrote more on that on another thread...
-
Sorry for double posting, just trying to bump this thread back up to the top, since we need it again.
For anyone new, we're continuing a conversation here from the "Rashek hatred not misplaced," thread on who the hero of ages is, and a bit of conversation about the prophecies in the books. You should also check out the Vin's mom thread, it has some good prophecy references, and to everyone else, let's get both those conversations streaming on to this thread, so things are a bit easier. A quick recap, our three candidates so far for hero of ages are Vin, Elend, and Sazed.
Missed anything guys?
-
Anyone ever find out if anyone on the crew has a birthmark or two on their arms. Spook even?
-
Spook is an interesting choice to bring up, I've been hoping to see more of him, and I'm excited to see he has a viewpoint, his character development, is not quite done, he need to make up for his cowardice in book 2. And he still needs to find himself a woman, I think him and Allriane might get together if things don't work out with breeze, but then again, who knows?
I do know one character with marks on BOTH of his arms, but then, he's dead.
Could Kelsier have been the hero of ages?
-
This is from the Mistborn Prologue Part One Annotation:
Somewhere in the italicized pre-chapter blurb of the prologue here is the clue one needs to figure out the over-arching mystery of the entire series. If you figure it out, good for you! If you don't, you'll have to wait until the last chapter of the final book to get it explained. . . .
Here is the logbook entry:
Sometimes, I worry that I'm not the hero everyone thinks I am.
The philosophers assure me that this is the time, that the signs have been met. But I still wonder if they have the wrong man. So many people depend on me. They say I will hold the future of the entire world on my arms.
What would they think if they new their champion-the Hero of Ages, their savior-doubted himself? Perhaps they wouldn't be shocked at all. In a way, this is what worries me most. Maybe, in their hearts, they wonder-just as I do.
When they see me, do they see a liar?
What, if any, connection is there between the "over-arching mystery of the entire series", who/what the Hero of Ages is, and this specific logbook entry?
According to the logbook we know Alendi heard the 'thumpings' and saw the Mist Spirit. These were things none of his traveling companions were aware of. It is assumed that Alendi was the Hero of Ages, even though he didn't do anything at the Well and it was Rashek who took the power. Alendi was quoted from the logbook as saying "If there are prophecies, if there is a Hero of Ages, then my mind whispers that there must be something directing my path. Something is watching; something cares. These peaceful whispers tell me a truth I very much want to believe.
If I fail, another shall come to finish my work." Vin is aware of the same things as Alendi was. Would it not make sense for Vin to be the Hero of Ages reincarnate?
-
You should read the end part of the Rashek hatred... thread, as well as Vin's mom thread, there were some interesting hero discussions going on there, we even discussed that particualr annotation.
WE believe that Vin heard the thumpings of the well because of her Hemalurgic earring, ALendi also had "piercings of the hero," which could have been similar, allowing him the hear the thumping. There is doubt to whether Alendi himself was actually the hero, Kwaan says this himself. I don' think we can pick Vin as the hero solely for this similarity.
We've been looking at that first logbook entry as well, as it apparently has the key to the overarching mystery, and what Vintage picked out is that it says: I will hold the future of the entire world ON my arms. We thought this wording was strange, and then I found a passage in Kwaan's steel plate, that says one of the signs that ALendi was the hero was the birthmark ON HIS ARM. We're not sure if this is connected, as the first bit says arms, and this says arm. There is also a passage that says ALendi knows that he cannot take the power for himself for he has SEEN what will happen if he does, meaning Alendi may be able to see the FUTURE or possible futures. There is also another one, where Alendi says he has confronted the mind of the Deepness directly, and I wonder if this means he was able to talk to Ruin.
-
I have one problem with this, coma. It says, "I will hold the future of the entire world on my arms." WILL HOLD. Not do hold. So I don't think this really refers to a birthmark, which he has had since....birth. It makes more sense that Alendi will be getting something in the future for his arms, whether it be a hemalurgical piercing, or anything else, really. It makes more sense that Alendi is getting some really, cool really powerful object, or something that gives him knowledge of Ruin and Preservation, etc, etc, etc. Not thinking it refers to the birthmark, which is probably just one of the other signs of the hero. Unless we are theorizing that his birthmark somehow gives him power?
-
Yes that is true.
Perhaps the the birthmark changes to show the future, and hasn't been activated yet?
That was pretty weak, I know.
I dunno, it just seems like quite the coincidence, but maybe it is just that! A coincidence!
On another note, Alendi says he confronted the mind of the deepness directly, and it is indeed sentient. What does that mean for us?
-
One of two things that I can see.
1) Deepness mists controlled by Ruin, Alendi sensing Ruin.
2)Deepness mists = have mind of their own
or I suppose
3) Deepness Mists = Ruin
Of course, this could be wrong, just a guess. For all we know, it could be
4) Deepness Mists = Giant Fluffy Teddy Bear Brought to Life By Alendi's Second Cousin
-
One of two things that I can see.
1) Deepness mists controlled by Ruin, Alendi sensing Ruin.
2)Deepness mists = have mind of their own
or I suppose
3) Deepness Mists = Ruin
Of course, this could be wrong, just a guess. For all we know, it could be
4) Deepness Mists = Giant Fluffy Teddy Bear Brought to Life By Alendi's Second Cousin
I'm an instant convert of option #4. Didn't you all catch the detail about Alendi's second cousin being an Awakener of the 8th Heightening?
-
of course, they could be wrong and the Deepness isnt the mists at all :P just had to throw that out there
-
Though Brandon does mention it in his annotations. Not that they definitely are, but that he's sorry if that discovery came off as anticlimactic.
-
ah yes, now i remember that quote. And i did think that was anticlimactic...
-
Ya, Vin just sort of blurts it out, doesn't she, "maybe it's the mists.."
I think The Deepness and Ruin have separate conciousnesses, and they just happen to be working towards the same goal. Perhaps Alendi saw into the Deepness's mind with his piercings, and you notice when Vin confronted the mist spirit, didn't her earing burn or something? I know she blacked out and her arm went numb, but what else happend?
-
If the mists are the Deepness, i kinda get the idea that its more of a force of nature and less of a personality.
I do not think there are two kinds of mist, just that the mist reacts differently to different people. I remember Sanderson saying somewhere that those who were attacked by the mist had something in common...i looked into it, and found the two people he went in-depth on the mist attacks were both old guys. Nope, don't think thats what he meant...
-
I also think that there is a pattern in who gets taken by the mists and who doesn't. But I also think the Deepness IS a Sentient being, separate from the mists, yet of them, like the Mist Spirit. Alendi himself says he has seen into it's mind and it is sentient, right?
EDIT:
Here's a thought, Vin thinks she's the hero because she and Alendi both saw the mist spirit right, well I was just think, who else has th mist Spirit appeared to:
Fedik (alendi's friend who went down to the metal lake and got stabbed)
Sazed :D
Elend
Besides Vin and Alendi, this is all the people I could think of, anyone else??
-
So why didn't the mist spirit ever try to tell her to remove her earring? I mean, it seemed to try to remove it by itself, but that didn't seem to go over well...
-
Because the mist spirit can't speak, that's probably what it was trying to do!
-
But it was able to communicate with her enough to get Elend the nugget. Maybe it didn't think she'd listen.
-
Or maybe it didn't have time, maybe that's what it was trying to do, with the knife (boy that doesn't makes sense)? But Vin attacked it first?
-
I also think that there is a pattern in who gets taken by the mists and who doesn't. But I also think the Deepness IS a Sentient being, separate from the mists, yet of them, like the Mist Spirit. Alendi himself says he has seen into it's mind and it is sentient, right?
EDIT:
Here's a thought, Vin thinks she's the hero because she and Alendi both saw the mist spirit right, well I was just think, who else has th mist Spirit appeared to:
Fedik (alendi's friend who went down to the metal lake and got stabbed)
Sazed :D
Elend
Besides Vin and Alendi, this is all the people I could think of, anyone else??
Didn't Spook also see the mist spirit when he was with Elend?
Also, has anyone mentioned the possibility that the whole HoA prophecy was cooked up by Ruin? It seems possible that it has been lying in wait every age for the one person that would be able to release it from it's prison. First Alendi and now Vin. Maybe the prophecy is just another tool to lure such a person to the well.
-
On this argument i tend to agree with Comatose. It seems plausible that Ruin weather throught Heruology or other means may have created the prophecy for the sole purpose of find the person who would set it free. the issue i find in that idea is that ruin seems to be able to influence the world in a multiple of ways like for instance the altering of text on paper and in metal minds, the opening of the mists to guid Vin. if this is the case then i only assume that preservation has some similar abilities. Possibly the mist spirit is a form of preservation attempting to force Vin to take the weels power and save elend therefor not releasing ruin. if preservation has the ability to influence the world wouldnt it adjust test aswell or maybe create its own prophecy? idk. well find out in october
-
Also, has anyone mentioned the possibility that the whole HoA prophecy was cooked up by Ruin? It seems possible that it has been lying in wait every age for the one person that would be able to release it from it's prison. First Alendi and now Vin. Maybe the prophecy is just another tool to lure such a person to the well.
Many, many times. Those of us who think that there really was such a prophecy use the arguments I outlined in this thread:
http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5921.30
-
No, Spook didn't see the Mist Spirit; it disappeared before he walked up.
-
Also, has anyone mentioned the possibility that the whole HoA prophecy was cooked up by Ruin? It seems possible that it has been lying in wait every age for the one person that would be able to release it from it's prison. First Alendi and now Vin. Maybe the prophecy is just another tool to lure such a person to the well.
Also, ruin only affects small things in clever ways, he doesn't change everything, I think this is for three reasons:
1) While trapped Ruin may not have had the power to change that many things
2) Ruin didn't know all the texts that were out there, he changes things as they come up, example, the Sazed Holy First Witness thing.
3) If he made such big changes (like creating a whole prophcey where there wasn't one before) People would notice, the only reason Kwaan is the only one to notice is because of his photographic memory, however, if Ruin made big changes that were noticable, anyone with a normal memory would notice. Kwaan says he didn't notice the changes until after he decided Alendi might be the hero.
-
So the Prophecies probably came from something or someone else, but we don't know who. In which case, what was the Hero of Ages originally supposed to do? Stop the Deepness? or something else?
EDIT: I found another reference to the HoA being tall. Sazed and Tindwyl worked on the rubbing vs the logbook and other sources and they found this (WoA, pg 553):
The Hero of Ages will be tall of stature, one read. A man who cannot be ignored by others.
Also, they noted that he will not be Terris, but then the quote is (WoA, pg 420):
The Rabzeen is said to be "He who is not of his people, yet fulfills all of their wishes"
-
While you make a good point, i think its possible for ruin to have created the prophecy. not that i think he did but that it is possible. the prophecy came from the terris religion and was brought about by the "world bringers", who are we to say that during some time in the ancient past that ruin didnt create the prophecy. ruin was obviously around at the time seeing how he was already in the WoA so why not throught the art of Humerology cause the creation of the prophecy that would release him through a prophet of the then powerful terris religion? think about it how are prophecies made? some "prophet" creates them. so it is absoulutly plausible that ruin may have created them seeing how we know he uses Humerology.
Dont get me wrong, i personally dont think ruin created the prophecy but i can understand the idea. i mainly only posted this for the sake of argument but that doesnt disprove the possability.
-
But then why wouldn't Ruin have put in that the power had to be released right off the bat, in the original it doesn't say what the hero has to do with the power, if Ruin created the whole thing, he would have put that the power needs to be given up right of the bat.
-
I agree he would more likely have made the prophecy so it would lead the person who enters the WoA to release the power. that is one of the reasons i dont think ruin made the prophecy. i was making the point that it was possible but i think your right that ruin didnt create it
-
I still wonder what the prophecy was originally about.
-
It was prophecying a hero who would come to defeat the deepness, I think, at least that's the original as we know it, perhaps it was the pwerson who will restore balance to Ruin and Preservation, I'm sure we'll find out soon!
-
It was prophecying a hero who would come to defeat the deepness, I think, at least that's the original as we know it, perhaps it was the pwerson who will restore balance to Ruin and Preservation, I'm sure we'll find out soon!
I definitely believe that they will bring balance. I mean, you can't have one without the other, that would just cause chaos.
-
Chaos, or lack of change entirely ( in the case of Preservation)
-
Chaos, or lack of change entirely ( in the case of Preservation)
Do you not remember the Dark Age my dear?
As I recall it there was MUCH chaos, and yet nothing changed over many years.
Too much of either causes chaos.
-
Also, has anyone mentioned the possibility that the whole HoA prophecy was cooked up by Ruin? It seems possible that it has been lying in wait every age for the one person that would be able to release it from it's prison. First Alendi and now Vin. Maybe the prophecy is just another tool to lure such a person to the well.
Many, many times. Those of us who think that there really was such a prophecy use the arguments I outlined in this thread:
http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5921.30
I had a similar theory on this very topic:
http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5810.45
In my opinion, I think MB3 will end with either the Mists being destroyed or both Ruin and Preservation being destroyed. I say the mists being destroyed because it is my theory that since Ruin and Preservation (apparently) manipulate the world via the mists, destroying it would make both forces useless, but maybe the Hero wouldn't intend to defeat both powers, but just Ruin. Preservation would be destroyed as a side-effect, in my opinion.
-
i tend to agree. i think that every factor that has a major part in this story is based off the mist. Ruin, Preservation, Allomancy, Feruchemy. I tend to think that if the mist is destroyed like i think it will be that all of these things will cease to exist. while i think the mist isnt a sentient force in itself it apparently has sentient forces (ruin and preservation) effecting it and living through it. what would happen if the mist was no longer there? would that alone stop the ashmounts or is that something completely differnt
-
Hard to say. Isn't there something in the jacket cover for HoA that says the Ashmounts are starting to cause earthquakes and erupt more violently like volcanoes?
-
Hard to say. Isn't there something in the jacket cover for HoA that says the Ashmounts are starting to cause earthquakes and erupt more violently like volcanoes?
Yes I believe it did.
-
Hard to say. Isn't there something in the jacket cover for HoA that says the Ashmounts are starting to cause earthquakes and erupt more violently like volcanoes?
Yes, that would tend to put a kink in the whole theory.
-
agreed that would tend to desroy that, but lets just say for the sake of argument Vin took the power from the WoA and used it, which obviously was possible. whos to say that if and when there is a confrontation with ruin and preservatioon there wont be power available to use to alter things in the world. it was said that with the power of the WoA Vin could change the world if only very quicly so there is apparently something involed of a higher power that can effect things on a larger scale.
-
What if the ashmounts are where Ruin trapped Preservation (I still like the person theory though, especially since there was something similar in Final Empire Prime apparently), and they are shaking because now that Ruin is free Preservation is trying to escape??
Who knows, the ashmounts are important thought, I'm sure of it.
-
in that respect i agree there is something about the ashmounts and the redsun that i cant really connect with anything but i know are important. i also like the person theory. your preservation theory is interesting but that would mean in the time of Alendi both Preservation and Ruin were locked up and for somereason after the ascention of the Lord Ruler Preservation was somehow freed. i like the idea of attempting to link the ashmounts to ruin and preservation and im sure they will be but for now this seems like a strech
-
also unless various parts of Preservation are separated and trapped, each in a single ashmount, it doesn't make sense.
-
also unless various parts of Preservation are separated and trapped, each in a single ashmount, it doesn't make sense.
Well, Preservation could be trapped in the subterranean lava lake that fuels all the Ashmounts ... but yeah, I don't think this is likely.
-
I would still think that Preservation is mostly if not entirely free. The reasoning for this is where in the Hero of Ages prologue it states that . . .
. . . something kept it from affecting the world too much by itself. An opposition. A force that lay over the land like a shield.
When this was observed, Ruin was freed upon the land, leading me to believe that it would take a freed Preservation to put up this much resistance to it. Also the case where the mists sometimes kill people and sometimes just shakes them up leads me to believe that Ruin and Preservation are both free and competing for the lives of those people. Ruin just has slightly more power at the moment, because he gained the power of the Well of Ascension.
-
ok so if thats true than im lead to an assumtion, maybe seeing how the Lord Ruler had some idea of the events unfolding in the world at the time of his ascention he did more with the power of the WoA. the last post leads us to think that both Ruin and Preservation are loose on the world in the time before the Lord Ruler. maybe the Lord ruler didnt just create allomancy and kolos, maybe he locked ruin in the well. this would be a good reason for him to make his palace on top of it. i wouldnt think that the Lord Ruler was prepairing for someone else to challange him and enter the well i think he was acting as a guardian to Ruins prison. he was to sure of himself to be afraid of a chanllanger and he also had no reason to think the power of the WoA would come again and call a new person to it.
-
hmm...doesn't Alendi reference the well though?
-
Ruin was sealed during the last Ascension though, according to Kwaan. I think it more likely that both powers were sealed away when The Lord Ruler took the power in the Well, and he used the Well's power to free Preservation, thus stopping the Deepness and turning the mists (And everything else.) into Preservation's territory. From there, The Lord Ruler had directly touched Preservation through the Well of Ascension, perhaps gained some power from it, and the world started to stop progressing because Ruin was trapped and Preservation was free. Then, when Vin gave up the power, Ruin took it and freed himself, and now they're both competing for the land.
-
i dont really follow what you mean when you say
Ruin was sealed during the last Ascension though, according to Kwaan. I think it more likely that both powers were sealed away when The Lord Ruler took the power in the Well, and he used the Well's power to free Preservation,
Does this mean you think that during the Lord rulers ascention both Ruin and Preservation who were previously at large, were sealed and then while using the power of the well the Lord Ruler simotaniously released Preservation in an attempt to combat the Deepness that ruin was loosing on the world?
If this were the case then what is the purpose of the well? it wasnt built as a prison for Ruin it just became one due to the Lord Ruler. So for reasons unknown there was this well of power on the planet that could be used for any thing the person who found it wanted. I find that there may be some hole to the theory but i also find it interesting and worth further investigation
-
It goes something like this. . .
During the time before The Lord Ruler, Preservation was weakening. Ruin was gaining power, but it was still trapped in the Well of Ascension. The Lord Ruler then went to the Well of Ascension, took the power for himself, and used it to make Preservation the dominant force in the land. (Among other things, like making the Koloss and such.) This stifled Ruin's small influence and made the Deepness into the mists, until a thousand years later, when Ruin could again reach out upon the world. Then Vin went to the Well of Ascension and gave up the power to Ruin. So the current state of things is Preservation, enhanced by The Lord Ruler's use of the Well, and Ruin, enhanced by Vin's use of the Well, are fighting over the land to establish control.
As for the Well of Ascension, I think it could have been made to make the world a better place. The people, every thousand years, would in theory send the Hero of Ages to the Well of Ascension, where they would then take it's power and use it to improve the world. Sometime in the past, someone just decided to use it's power to seal Ruin away completely. Of course, we've seen that if the wrong sort of person takes possession of the Well, the world can be in for some serious troubles.
-
ok, i see your theory requires alot of assumtions. but i guess it would have to seeing how were talking about a time period that we have little to zero knowlage about. the whole idea that the well was created to "make the world a better place" is kinda slim. with that much power theres always going to be people who want to take it.
-
i dont really think the well was created by humans.
-
I think Czanos theory makes a whole lot more sense than anything else I've heard for a while. It goes right along with what I've thought for most of the time, with a few improvements.
-
I would still think that Preservation is mostly if not entirely free. The reasoning for this is where in the Hero of Ages prologue it states that . . .
Quote
. . . something kept it from affecting the world too much by itself. An opposition. A force that lay over the land like a shield.
When this was observed, Ruin was freed upon the land, leading me to believe that it would take a freed Preservation to put up this much resistance to it. Also the case where the mists sometimes kill people and sometimes just shakes them up leads me to believe that Ruin and Preservation are both free and competing for the lives of those people. Ruin just has slightly more power at the moment, because he gained the power of the Well of Ascension.
That's just it, if they were both free, they would be equal. Since Ruin is so powerful, Preservation must be trapped or limited somehow. Ruin could do pretty amazing things (the deepness, controlling the inquisitors, changing the rubbing). I think Preservation is using all the power it can muster, but it doesn't have all it's power because it was trapped. Preservation has to be trapped, otherwise Ruin's power wouldn't be limited, it would be equaled, and contested. I'm thinking the Lord Ruler channelled Preservation into himself somehow at the well of ascension, and when Vin stabbed him THROUGH THE HEART with a SPEAR Preservation transfered to her. The Lord Ruler was actiovely channeling the Preservation inside him, thus Preservation was practically free, and thus more powerful than the still trapped Ruin, but Vin is unaware, and since she took Preservation into herself, it is trapped, and limited in what it can do. Ruin remembers from his time that Preservation was in a feruchemist, so he hunts them, trying to make them into inquisitors and absorb Preservation's power, but, Preservation isn't in a feruchemist anymore, it's in Vin. That's my theory, I hope it clarifies some things that keep coming up again and again.
-
Makes sense, I guess, but is a little overly complicated for my tastes.
If we're going to follow along with it, however, you're saying then, that preservation is PARTIALLY trapped. If preservation were completely trapped, Ruin would have free reign, which it doesn't, and the part about them being equal if both were free makes sense. So, I think that preservation is mostly free, but not entirely.
And I'm sorry, but I don't think it makes sense for preservation to have been transferred to Vin or even to have been in the Lord Ruler in the first place. You would think Vin would know by now if she had the one force preventing Ruin from taking over the world trapped inside her. She might even do something stupid like kill herself to release it. I think your theory has some valid points to it, Coma, but overall doesn't really make sense.
So now that the first and last lines there contradict each other...
-
That's just it, if they were both free, they would be equal. Since Ruin is so powerful, Preservation must be trapped or limited somehow.
Mmmm. There's another option you're not considering.
(Oh yeah, that's right—you're not reading my posts.)
-
Care to give a pointer to said post, or do I have to go digging through the first 20 threads hoping to find something promising before giving up with a sort of dejected sullenness?
-
Andrew, I think Ookla was talking about Comatose's post in the Reen's Obsidian thread, where Coma said he wasn't reading anymore of Ookla's posts.
And who says the two forces are of equal power at any given moment? Perhaps Preservation is just tired or something. (I only say tired because it seems odd to me that Alendi, Rashek, and Vin all have a line similar to, "I am so very tired." somewhere in the books, not because I'm convinced a force like Preservation could even be tired.)
Perhaps as was mentioned before, the state of the world determines which of the two powers is stronger at the moment. If there's more chaos, Ruin is stronger, more stability, Preservation.
Or perhaps It's just a matter of the forces using up their power. (Burning it away, perhaps?) Preservation seems to have been active for at least a thousand years, trying to keep the world from progressing, while Ruin was just freed from his prison. Perhaps Ruin with his newly acquired power from the Well of Ascension is just simply stronger than Preservation at the moment.
-
Thanks for the clarification. I must have missed that one.
And that sounds about like my theory that the state of the world is reflected in whichever is more free, and they constantly fight to force each other further into some sort of captivity while simultaneously trying to free themselves.
-
That's just it, if they were both free, they would be equal. Since Ruin is so powerful, Preservation must be trapped or limited somehow.
Mmmm. There's another option you're not considering.
(Oh yeah, that's right—you're not reading my posts.)
I think what Ookla is getting at here is that we do not know anything for certain about Preservation's true nature. He never confirmed that the mist spirit was Preservation or anything else.
-
I really doubt anyone will get it, even though it's staring everyone in the face. I didn't get it myself even after reading book three. :)
-
I really doubt anyone will get it, even though it's staring everyone in the face. I didn't get it myself even after reading book three. :)
Oh, now, that's just cruel, telling us it's staring right in front of our faces.
-
No, what is cruel is that, even if one of us gets it right, we won't know it until October. Even worse, there will be many people (myself included) who will scrutinize said theory into obscurity. I can't even choose a direction for a theory right now.
-
I really doubt anyone will get it, even though it's staring everyone in the face. I didn't get it myself even after reading book three. :)
Errr... so when did you get it?
-
I know what you mean. Right now my mind is going in every possible direction.
"Ruin has more support, Preservation doesn't know as much as ruin, RUIN IS PRESERVATION!!!"
Yeah, I need sleep. And I just woke up like an hour and a half ago...
-
Errr... so when did you get it?
He probably had to have EUOL himself explain it, which is NOT a good sign for the rest of us!
-
Isn't it possible that Ruin and Preservation are now equal, and Ruin is trying to tip the balance in its own favor? It still can't touch the world directly. It may have absolute influence over the Inquisitors, but there is still a force keeping It at bay. Ruin is not yet as powerful as we believe, I think.
-
I would say that it is possible.
I would also say that's it's possibly they are generally equal, and the number of minions and their strength that each has is what determines who is stronger. Most people aren't really fighting for preservation, persay, while a good number are for Ruin...
-
Curse you Ookla, I've already forgotten and broken my oath not to read your treacherous and confusing texts, meant to lead me astray, with those tantilizing bits of information, which I crave!
OCTOBER!
The bit about something being right in front of our faces might involve that "over arching mystery," hidden in the prologue epigraph, or it might be something else, but if Ookla had trouble with it even after reading book three, what chance do I have, alas, I must try. I will solve this mystery, or go mad trying (or both).
I like Czanos's point about Vin, Rashek, and Alendi all being "tired." There's something there I think. Vin had trouble sleeping, because she felt she couldn't sleep, or else something would happen during said sleep that she would have been able to prevent had she been awake (ie Elend's assassination), while the Lord Ruler's tiredness is of a different sort. He is tired with life, he's seen and done everything, and he's tired of things not going smoothly for him. He's been "working," on the same problems for a thousand years, and people still doubt and fight his power. He is tired of people not realizing his overwhelming power. Alendi suffers from insomnia, correct me if I'm wrong, because of the mist spirit who follows him, and from his inner turmoils. Three pivotal characters in the books are suffering tiredness, I think Czanos is on to something, but I am unsure of what it is exactly.
-
OK. I've just seen the new HoA chapter. I'm pretty sure from it that Vin isn't the Hero of Ages.
Dang good initial bump though. It tells us only that the Hero of Ages is probably real, and not much else.
-
OK. I've just seen the new HoA chapter. I'm pretty sure from it that Vin isn't the Hero of Ages.
What makes you think that? I'm pretty sure most people think the bump is written by Rashek, if that is what u are referring to...
-
OK. I've just seen the new HoA chapter. I'm pretty sure from it that Vin isn't the Hero of Ages.
What makes you think that? I'm pretty sure most people think the bump is written by Rashek, if that is what u are referring to...
Now that you ask, I don't know, really. It just doesn't sound like the way Vin would write. It doesn't seem to match her personality.
Rashek is a distinct possibility. It would fit with the previous bumps. It's just that I don't think Rashek was the Hero of Ages; he became TLR after all. I would, somehow, much rather have them written by the *real* Hero of Ages.
Rashek could tell us quite a bit, though. So I'll keep an open mind.
-
It's OBVIOUSLY written by Rashek because he WAS the Hero at one point, or thought he was.
-
It's OBVIOUSLY written by Rashek because he WAS the Hero at one point, or thought he was.
Did I miss something here? Since when was Rashek the Hero of Ages? Also, if he was I think he would embrace that fact. The word unfortunately is evidence that whomever wrote that did not want to be the HoA.
-
To me, that quote sounds like Alendi-esque.
-
To me, that quote sounds like Alendi-esque.
Exactly what I was thinking.
-
I think that Rashek felt that Alendi could NOT have been the HoA because he was not Terrismen. . . therefore he himself felt that he was the HoA.
-
Good, folks. Glad to see I'm not alone.
The quote doesn't sound like TLR. TLR was Rashek; sometimes we seem to forget the fact that he also thought he was God. From the end of Mistborn 1, we see that he actually believed it. We also have seen no evidence that that wasn't his attitude during the early years; if anything else, his monologue at the end of MB1 would indicate that his attitude has stayed constant. We can natter on about preservation and the necessity to preserve humanity, but TLR seems to have gone about it all the wrong way, no matter how you slice it.
Thus it just doesn't sound like Rashek. Just one line, and it's already waaaaay to humble to be Rashek.
Here's a thought: How do we know that this isn't from a document written after the fact? We've had two documents written before the entire mess started, but there is no logical reason why the "bumps" can't come from something that will be written after all the action has occurred.
-
EUOL says it's from a nearly omniscient source. I don't think that is from a document that is written. I think it's coming from an actual person this time.
-
I thought the bump sounded more tired than humble. Could just be me pushing for them to be written by Rashek, but if he did write them, I think the bump could be taken along the lines of, "I am, unfortunately, the man who got stuck ruling this degenerate, ungrateful, rebellious world." The duty would have killed all his friends and family hundreds of years ago, and now he's stuck in his palace waiting for the Well to refill so that he can use it to save a people who pretty much resent him. In his mind, all of this could stem from being the Hero of Ages.
-
I thought the bump sounded more tired than humble. Could just be me pushing for them to be written by Rashek, but if he did write them, I think the bump could be taken along the lines of, "I am, unfortunately, the man who got stuck ruling this degenerate, ungrateful, rebellious world." The duty would have killed all his friends and family hundreds of years ago, and now he's stuck in his palace waiting for the Well to refill so that he can use it to save a people who pretty much resent him. In his mind, all of this could stem from being the Hero of Ages.
Similar things went through my head there too. I really think that it was Rashek for sure.
-
I definitely think it is written by Rashek, but something doesn't seem right. Rashek just doesn't strike me as the "reluctant hero" type guy. Or "reluctant villian" i should say...
-
I love how you're drawing so many conclusions from 7 words.
-
I love how you're drawing so many conclusions from 7 words.
And you expected anything less of us? ha ah
-
EUOL says it's from a nearly omniscient source. I don't think that is from a document that is written. I think it's coming from an actual person this time.
Where did he say that? I have vague memories to it, but can't think of where it should be.
-
EUOL says it's from a nearly omniscient source. I don't think that is from a document that is written. I think it's coming from an actual person this time.
Where did he say that? I have vague memories to it, but can't think of where it should be.
It was in some interview not on the boards. I think he said it at the Denver book signing maybe. . .
-
I love how you're drawing so many conclusions from 7 words.
Lol stop teasing them, Ookla. ;)
October is only 46 days away, plus the actual day of release...
This thread will be fun to look back on afterward I think though.
-
I love how you're drawing so many conclusions from 7 words.
Lol stop teasing them, Ookla. ;)
October is only 46 days away, plus the actual day of release...
This thread will be fun to look back on afterward I think though.
We'll all have theories that make us feel stupid and ones that make us feel like omniscient gods. ha ha. xP
-
October is only 46 days away, plus the actual day of release...
Way to go. Now I AM going to go crazy (or more so).
And I think the character is the Mist Spirit. He or she says unfortunately because they're the real hero of ages, and locked Ruin away thousands of years ago, and now all these pretender heroes formed by the Ruin altered prophecy keep trying to set him free. That's the unfortunate part, that none of those people are the real hero of ages, and thus are doing more harm than good, and he/she is tired because he/she has to keep dealing with these fake heroes, and prevent them from releasing Ruin.
Question: Why does the mist spirit only attack friends of the hero, but never the hero him/herself (vin or Alendi). There's something there I think, and didn't the Spirit hold up it's arm when it first met Vin, before the knife was there, perhaps it was something to do with holding the future on it's arms? Just guessing there, those last bits are purely specualtion, which is why they are preceded by the word Question.
-
Probably because it doesn't want to hurt them because of how much influence they have. It just wants to sway them to do the right thing without physically causing them harm.
-
But why take the risk, and I think Elend had more influence than Vin at this point, but that's just me. Although Vin was controlling the koloss so her death would cause problems. What about Alendi?
-
Not influence in that manner. Influence with the power they will have after the well, no matter the choice they make.
-
But if the mist spirit were to eliminate them, that type of influence would cause no ill effects because it hasn't happened yet, and still why take the chance that they will free ruin, one dead hero is surely better than a released super diety trying to destroy the world. Perhaps it has something to do with the deepness
-
Well a faulty hero who released Ruin but still has a chance to defeat it is better than the extinction of the world due to the Mists.
-
So here's an interesting question: what happens if no one goes to the well to claim the power? Does it just sit there? Or would it go free/randomly start doing things?
-
I think the power/calling would get SOO intense that they would really have no choice but to go.
-
That is a good question Andrew, perhaps the power would build up so much that Ruin would be completely destroyed? Maybe that's it, releasing the power released Ruin, taking it traps him longer, and just leaving it destroys him. Well now that he's free I guess it's not much good is it?
-
So here's an interesting question: what happens if no one goes to the well to claim the power? Does it just sit there? Or would it go free/randomly start doing things?
Moot point. With the millennial power gathering, Ruin's influence would increase, and he would manipulate things so drastically until someone was at the Well.
However... I would really like if this "millennial power" wasn't just an arbitrary sort of thing, like, not just something that happens every thousand years. Where does the power come from? Why does it gather here? It seems to me that there has to be some overriding reason to the Well's existence, and thus far, no theory on this site has given a clear answer.
And no, you can't say "Ruin gathered the power". That's insanity. I was under the impression that Ruin's influence increased because the Well's power was gathering (simply put, there needs to be a reason in the time of Alendi for Ruin to send out the Deepness specifically at Alendi and Kwaan's time, not centuries earlier. Linking Ruin's strength to the gathering of the Well gives the reason for this--Ruin wasn't manipulating the Hero of Ages and all of that with Alendi a century or two earlier because the Well was not ready yet. Note, I think it was Andrew who linked this up. Thanks man :P). Thus, Ruin would already be a weaker force without the Well's power gathered... I mean, its like saying that car works by gasoline... but if it doesn't have gasoline, the car is going to magically create its own gasoline (despite, you know, not working.).
There is something bigger here... something we haven't even touched upon yet...
-
That is something to think about, the power is the power of creation, and is essentially holding Ruin in, so why does Ruin strengthen with the power? Just reiterating wat Chaos said. I don't really have any answers. There is definately something we're missing here though, so let's find it!
-
Odds are we won't know until the third book comes out. Even then it will be hard to tell, according to Ook if I recall correctly.
-
I'm not seeing Ruin and the Deepness as so closely linked. The Deepness began to reassert itself after TLR was slain, began to strengthen, to kill, and to terrorize. Ruin was still held at the WoA for another year. The reason it took a year was only that it took that long for the Well to reach a level of fullness that called strong enough on Vin. TLR was sucking away small bits of the Well's power to use in keeping the Deepness at bay, so it could never get topped off, as it were. Once it did, the pulsing got so strong that Vin couldn't ignore it if she tried.
I do not believe the pulsing at the Well was Ruin calling out to Vin, but I won't discount it as a reasonable theory. I think the inherent power of the Well that could maintain Ruin captive also produced natural allomantic-style pulses.
-
No, the well simply fills every thousand years. That's why it filled when it did. Because TLR ruled for NEARLY a thousand years.
-
I'm not seeing Ruin and the Deepness as so closely linked. The Deepness began to reassert itself after TLR was slain, began to strengthen, to kill, and to terrorize. Ruin was still held at the WoA for another year. The reason it took a year was only that it took that long for the Well to reach a level of fullness that called strong enough on Vin. TLR was sucking away small bits of the Well's power to use in keeping the Deepness at bay, so it could never get topped off, as it were. Once it did, the pulsing got so strong that Vin couldn't ignore it if she tried.
I do not believe the pulsing at the Well was Ruin calling out to Vin, but I won't discount it as a reasonable theory. I think the inherent power of the Well that could maintain Ruin captive also produced natural allomantic-style pulses.
However, Ruin was actively manipulating things in the world to move Vin towards the Well of Ascension, most notably the time when Ruin altered the final line in the rubbing of Kwaan's words (from "Alendi must not reach the Well of Ascension, for he must not release the thing that is imprisoned there" to "for he must not take the power for himself."). It goes to show you that despite this "imprisonment", Ruin has substantial power. It's horrifying to think of him even more powerful than that.
From that reasoning, it is apparent that just because Ruin is imprisoned does not mean he isn't using the Deepness. Besides, from Kwaan's unaltered Steel Plate, he explains: "Something has taken control of our religion, something nefarious, something that cannot be trusted. It misleads, and it shadows. It uses Alendi to destroy, leading him along a path of death and sorrow. It is pulling him toward the Well of Ascension, where the millennial power has gathered. I can only guess that it sent the Deepness as a method of making mankind more desperate, of pushing us to do as it wills."
It would be unnecessarily complicated if the Deepness wasn't caused by Ruin since the link was established there. It wouldn't be good from a narrative structure, in my mind.
-
But like Kwaan says, he's only guessing. ;)
-
My theory is that the Deepness, like the Mist Spirit, are separate entities from both Ruin and Preservation. Alendi does state that he has seen into the mind of the Deepness. Some think that he is seeing into Ruin's mind, but when Ruin speaks to Vin, it pretends to be kindly, but when Alendi sees into the Deepness, he sees a creature who destroys simply because that is what it does. I think Ruin and the Deepness are not linked, but are simply working towards a common goal: world destruction. After reading Chapter 1 of HOA, I am under the impression the the Mist Spirit, was the orginal and true Hero of Ages of the prophecy, sent to stop the Deepness and possible trap Ruin.
-
STOOOOOOOOOOOP! Everyone is forgetting a very important fact in the book...you have all become like the terris people of the past, you must remember what....i cant remember his name of the top of my head...the dude how first announced Alendi the HOA....remember he says that the prophecies have been altered, corrupted...something wants the HOA that it has described...someone like vin who can resist power to reach the well....that is not the ORIGINAL prophecy....i say that either Sazed or the Steel inquistors will find the original Prophecy...and in it shall we have the clues or signs of who it is...until then it can be anyone and everyone, it could be Spook even.....hmmm...Spook? Well think about what i said and then anaylze the matter...who will be HOA? Its harder to answer now right? Sanderson is such a dog.
-
WE know the prophecy has been corrupted, we've just been going on parts that we believe to still be in their original form. We could of course be very wrong. It is a theory after all.
-
STOOOOOOOOOOOP! Everyone is forgetting a very important fact in the book...you have all become like the terris people of the past, you must remember what....i cant remember his name of the top of my head...the dude how first announced Alendi the HOA....remember he says that the prophecies have been altered, corrupted...something wants the HOA that it has described...someone like vin who can resist power to reach the well....that is not the ORIGINAL prophecy....i say that either Sazed or the Steel inquistors will find the original Prophecy...and in it shall we have the clues or signs of who it is...until then it can be anyone and everyone, it could be Spook even.....hmmm...Spook? Well think about what i said and then anaylze the matter...who will be HOA? Its harder to answer now right? Sanderson is such a dog.
Right. Which is why I do not come up with theories whether someone is, in fact, the Hero, because the knowledge is so corrupted. The only theory I defend is that there is a Hero of Ages in some form (in other words, the Hero itself was not a ploy created by Ruin, but rather corrupted by Ruin). Of course, I could still be wrong on that point, too.
-
Ok. I am pretty sure that there is a HOA, and i am pretty sure that there will be another way...i mean prophecies are supposed to forsee these things coming.....maybe there is another prophecy that warns us of the RUIN...from the same people the mist spirit is from??? What do you think...will the true propecy be Terris or will another people's Prophecy arise...maybe the Inquistors have a Prophecy??? Why else would they abandon their stronghold??? I bet you their prophecy has begun...
On another note. What if the HOA is all three inquistor, Feru and an Allo? that would be awesome......Marsh Might become the HOA....thats not a bad idea...I bet you all that the new Prophecy is not someone who can resist the power of the well but the power of the Ruin...The Prophecy is vague...The Deepness could have changed it from The RUIN...to the ruin of the power...This might be the slight change he was speaking of....Marsh? He was infact the one who cared the most, more even the Kel--if you think really far back to the begining of the trilogy, when he and Kel first argued about the plan. He does deserve to be the hero, but im not sure. Wow im rambling. Ok. Tell me what you all think.
-
Hmmmmmmm... Eeeeenteresting....
-
Tell me what you all think.
I think you should trade in some of your excess question marks and ellipses for a shift key and a grammar check button.
But yes, I do think the idea of Marsh as HOA has some merit.
-
On another note. What if the HOA is all three inquistor, Feru and an Allo? that would be awesome......Marsh Might become the HOA....thats not a bad idea...I bet you all that the new Prophecy is not someone who can resist the power of the well but the power of the Ruin...The Prophecy is vague...The Deepness could have changed it from The RUIN...to the ruin of the power...This might be the slight change he was speaking of....Marsh? He was infact the one who cared the most, more even the Kel--if you think really far back to the begining of the trilogy, when he and Kel first argued about the plan. He does deserve to be the hero, but im not sure. Wow im rambling. Ok. Tell me what you all think.
I concur with SarahG. Hmmm. I like this idea. . . now we just need more ways to fit him into the prophecy. He is tall isn't he?
-
I think you should trade in some of your excess question marks and ellipses for a shift key and a grammar check button.
ok. i will try harder next times....if you wiil please for give me. i THaNK you%
And your damn right it has merit!
-
I like the idea but it is hard to think that a vessel of Ruin like Marsh and all the Inquisitors would also be the HOA. What if it was a Kandra? I mean they have a religion that has survived from the beginning. It could be Marsh and the prophecy that has been unaltered might be from the Kandra religion. Im aware that the Kandra were supposed to be created by TLR and that would dash my idea so I guess thats the best I have.
-
What if it was a Kandra? I mean they have a religion that has survived from the beginning. . . . I'm aware that the Kandra were supposed to be created by TLR . . .
Hmm... Why would TLR, who was destroying all religions except his own, let the Kandra have one?
-
Oooooh, goody!!! Another Ookla Hint!!!
-
There are some very basic yet important questions about kandra that I've never seen anyone ask in this forum.
-
??? ??? ???
So many theories and unansewered questions! Seriously right now i could cook a pop tart in my head...i love pop tarts.
-
There are some very basic yet important questions about kandra that I've never seen anyone ask in this forum.
Mmmm... I know I've come up with my ridiculous kandra-gave-Kelsier-11th-metal theory, but that's... ridiculousness, and not even remotely close to bringing illuminating questions about the kandra
I do believe, though, that the kandra's need for atium was brought up several times over.
-
Well, there's always the basic questions like:
Where do Kandra live?
What do they do with all that atium?
How do Kandra work, exactly?
How do Kandra observe their victims?
How does one purchase a Kandra contract?
How exactly are Kandra and Koloss related?
Does controlling a Kandra via Allomancy grant one access to their memories?
Or more story-specific questions like:
How did Kelsier meet OreSeur?
What other Kandra do we know?
Can we trust the Kandra's religion, or is it a ploy by The Lord Ruler to control them?
How can Steel Inquisitors tell a Kandra apart so easily?
What laws are/were there regarding Kandra's in society?
There are lots of Kandra questions.
-
Those are good, but only the first one is actually basic.
-
How are these for basic?
Do kandra go to the bathroom?
When does the next chapter come out? I'm dying here.
Do kandra breath?
How do kandra see? eyes/allomancy
Why would kandra agree to kill another kandra?
Where do kandra go when they don't have a contract?
How old do kandra live?
How do kandra reproduce? Do they need a partner?
-
When does the next chapter come out? I'm dying here.
I plan on posting five chapters.
So we'll maybe get one a week from now on?
-
Much better, VegasDev. Now you're talking!
TenSoon is one of my favorite characters in book 3.
-
Here are a few more:
Are contract-less kandra disembodied souls?
In what way are kandra of Preservation?
Are kandra able to draw chaklings?
How exactly are kandra related to mistwraiths?
Is the mist spirit a kandra?
Are kandra afraid of kittens?
I'm not sure how asking questions really helps though; I think most of the answers are unattainable until we read the third book.
-
Much better, VegasDev. Now you're talking!
TenSoon is one of my favorite characters in book 3.
Ok, see we've got more questions but it doesn't really get us anywhere.
I'll attempt to answer my own questions without any basis in book text.
Do kandra go to the bathroom?
Yes, atium is their feces and the mists are actually their flatulence.
When does the next chapter come out? I'm dying here.
Today, Brandon will send it to you before anyone else reads them as a special privilege since you earned a fell point.
Do kandra breath?
They absorb oxygen through their skin, they don't have lungs.
How do kandra see? eyes/allomancy
The have hemalurgy, hence the ability to control them. That is how they see.
Why would kandra agree to kill another kandra?
They wouldn't, we only think TenSoon killed OreSuer.
Where do kandra go when they don't have a contract?
Vacation, somewhere nice and warm, maybe a little beachfront property.
How old do kandra live?
Precisely 654 years.
How do kandra reproduce? Do they need a partner?
Binary Fission.
-
Do kandra go to the bathroom?
Yes, atium is their feces and the mists are actually their flatulence.
I like it! Intriguing and creative, though gross (especially for the Mistborn who have to swallow the atium).
Do kandra breathe?
They absorb oxygen through their skin, they don't have lungs.
Um, they don't have skin either.]
How old do kandra live?
Precisely 654 years.
Exactly right! Thank you for answering all the questions!
-
Do kandra go to the bathroom?
Yes, atium is their feces and the mists are actually their flatulence.
Do kandra breathe?
They absorb oxygen through their skin, they don't have lungs.
Um, they don't have skin either.]
They have a membrane they can breathe through. Skin is just a more vernacular term for anything that holds the insides in.
-
They have a membrane they can breathe through. Skin is just a more vernacular term for anything that holds the insides in.
I don't think they have a membrane either. Or insides. I think they're completely disembodied.
-
They have a membrane they can breathe through. Skin is just a more vernacular term for anything that holds the insides in.
I don't think they have a membrane either. Or insides. I think they're completely disembodied.
There has to be something that holds them together otherwise they would just be. . . liquid.
-
There has to be something that holds them together otherwise they would just be. . . liquid.
I don't think they have any physical form at all, whether liquid, solid, or gas. I think that (unless under a contract, of course) their existence is purely spiritual.
-
There has to be something that holds them together otherwise they would just be. . . liquid.
I don't think they have any physical form at all, whether liquid, solid, or gas. I think that (unless under a contract, of course) their existence is purely spiritual.
That seems a bit far'fetched to me.
-
Wow this thread exploded. I would think that kandra have some physical form. They are said to devour the victims body in order to use the parts for the new form. If they are related to mist wraiths than we already know "they" have some sort of form. They as in mist wraiths.
-
They are said to devour the victims body in order to use the parts for the new form.
That poses a problem for my theory. I was just assuming that they use their current victim's digestive tract to devour their new victim, but I was forgetting to account for how they would digest their first victim (or their first victim after being on vacation). As for mistwraiths, I was assuming that the form they have comes entirely from the bodies they've eaten. You've definitely poked a hole in my theory; I'll have to re-think.
-
Hmm... Why would TLR, who was destroying all religions except his own, let the Kandra have one?
I thought I would get back to this question and posit my theories. First, their religion is only based upon humans destroying themselves and not about a savior arrising to free them all so his rule would not be threatened. Second, they probably didn't write down their religious beliefs or store them in metal minds, instead passing it down as lore. This is important because then Ruin wouldn't be able to manipulate their religion to it's own ends.
-
In reality we don't know what the kandra religion involves. We do know that the religion has something to do with the end of human life but we know nothing else. Seeing how we have no real knowledge about how kandra live we cant really make any assumptions on how they store their knowledge either. I find the topic to be a little to lacking to make any real guesses.
-
In reality we don't know what the kandra religion involves. We do know that the religion has something to do with the end of human life but we know nothing else. Seeing how we have no real knowledge about how kandra live we cant really make any assumptions on how they store their knowledge either. I find the topic to be a little to lacking to make any real guesses.
Can you point me to the area that says Kandra religion has been around from the beginning and that it hasn't been altered?
-
Let me do some skimming and see if I can find it for you.
-
I'd like to add here that Brandon mentions in his annotations that the beliefs listed in MB2 for Kandra are not central to their belief system; they are parts that float on the edges, part of the lore, but not the thrust of the lore. As far as I can tell, every belief system (including most forms of atheism) have some of these; often they can be abandoned without loosing the core of the system as a whole.
I actually expect that they know something about Ruin and Preservation. That sounds much more central. Of course, how they know---that's another question entirely. Maybe after the Lord Ruler lost interest in them they learned something from humans? Or maybe they got it from themselves somehow? Prophecy may be possible in this world; maybe Kandra can prophesy?
Isn't one of the most important questions "Did the Lord Ruler really create the Kandra?" Maybe they were humans before being changed. We don't know the limits of the power used to remake the world. Are mass and energy conserved? If so, then the Kandra were made out of something; it may have been "clay" (inanimate matter), but it may also have been out of living creatures. Ditto for the Koloss. Those creatures are just darn weird, both of them.
So many questions. So little answers. Curse you Ookla!
-
Kandra kill each other when their master orders them too. Zane had TenSoon kill Oreseur so he could take his place. It's a safe guard in the contract, since people don't know how to kill Kandra.
-
Kandra kill each other when their master orders them too. Zane had TenSoon kill Oreseur so he could take his place. It's a safe guard in the contract, since people don't know how to kill Kandra.
But do they actually KILL the other Kandra or just send them home? They are afraid of Mistborn because of what Mistborn can do, not afraid of other Kandra.
-
none of this matters at all because, I, unfortunately, am the Hero of Ages.
i know, the announcement is a shock to some. an inevitability to others.
-
none of this matters at all because, I, unfortunately, am the Hero of Ages.
i know, the announcement is a shock to some. an inevitability to others.
then a gentle whisper tells him, when he fails another will finish his work, most likely the very next poster
Yes, that is a shock to me. Now how can I explain hearing a thumping/pulsing sound off to the north?
-
The kandra religion hmm. I'll do some diggin in my rereads. Whenever I finish life of Pi that is.
-
Everyone knows I'm the Hero of Ages. Think of it this way:
Brandon says the epigraphs in the third book are written by someone who "knows everything". This person believes to be the Hero of Ages.
Since I know everything, that must mean I'm the Hero of Ages.
...And I don't want to hear any business like "you don't know the end of MB3" or "you suck with logic", lol.
-
I forgot to add something in my last post
CURSE YOU OOKLA! (And yes, those all caps were meant to be rude).
-
I forgot to add something in my last post
CURSE YOU OOKLA! (And yes, those all caps were meant to be rude).
Conversely, I say "THANK YOU OOKLA", because he's given us some great clues that I wouldn't have thought of myself.
...Also, I already knew I would say that, because I'm the Hero of Ages.
-
Off topic i know but i wouldnt be the first. lol. chaos2651 as the HOA, im a believer. Anyway, do you guys have any suggestions for any other good reads? it feels like i've read everything that fantasy has to offer. don't tell anyone but i had a dream that the situation became so dire that i picked up a Stephen King novel! huuuh...i still get goosebumps looking back to it. Help. Or, im of the needing of the help? that was supposed to be a Spookian accent, in case you probably, and most likely didn't figure.
-
Also, for those who were talking about kandra in this thread, that was really off-topic. So, I created a topic specifically for that reason!
Let's move all that stuff here. (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6051.0)
Also, I'm incredibly honored to have my first follower.
-
You obviously can't be the hero, chaos, because I am the hero.
-
Ah, but since you are the Executor of my Opinions, and me being the Hero of Ages would be an opinion of mine, then therefore, you are automatically bound to agree that I am the Hero.
You can't even give me crap for not "being absent", because I could always just go to class. That way, I would technically be absent and then you'd have to Execute my opinions.
-
OK. With the new sample chapter up, surely we can make some guesses?
The possibility that Rashek is the author of the bumps seems to have gone up significantly (if you hadn't noticed, the power was used poorly when TLR took it. The chapter two bump seems to say why it was used poorly.) If that little description is even partly right, well, I'd be scared out of my mind to hold the power.
If that really makes him the Hero of Ages is still up for debate.
-
I guess all the evidence points towards Rashek writing the bumps but something doesn't feel right. Rashek was a packman; he doesn't seem like the most educated type. Would he really write down a journal? Plus the style just doesn't seem quite like him. I am going to hold by my theory that the bumps are Sazed's journal found by Vin halfway through the book.
-
Hmm...? Happyman, are you saying that since Alendi was not the actual HOA and that since....oh i forget his name--the terrisman who at first announced Alendi as HOA but then thought better...ok anyways. Im confused, are you saying that the terrisman not only figured out that Alendi wasn't the HOA but thought it was Rashevak? He does state some attributes about his nephew( that he hates what his people are doing, letting a nonterrisman be the HOA, and that he hates Alendi more acutely). Can those be traits he bears in his metalminds of what the HOA would be like? Im i making any sense?
-
I don't think that Kwaan thought that Rashek was the hero, he just wanted to prevent alendi from taking the power. To do this, he may very well have told Rashek that he was the hero, and Rashek took on the role.
And, Reaves, Rashek has 1000 years between the ascension and now to learn to read and write. I'm sure he could have managed it quite well. And I think all-knowing is a pretty good style for the lord ruler to write in.
Ah, but since you are the Executor of my Opinions, and me being the Hero of Ages would be an opinion of mine, then therefore, you are automatically bound to agree that I am the Hero.
You can't even give me crap for not "being absent", because I could always just go to class. That way, I would technically be absent and then you'd have to Execute my opinions.
It's kind of ironic, I was actually going to claim the "not absent" bit. Well, since I made up a good portion of the title, I'll simply have to change it to "in the event of his extended absence."
And also, I'm now officially naming Chaos as the executor of my opinions in the event of my absence. Thus, he is required to support my opinions as well as me being required to support his, so we are now in the friendly town of paradox-ville....
...except I can just be absent for a few hours and Chaos will have to support me, because his title is just in the event of my absence, while mine is now in the event of his extended absence. I win.
-
And, Reaves, Rashek has 1000 years between the ascension and now to learn to read and write. I'm sure he could have managed it quite well. And I think all-knowing is a pretty good style for the lord ruler to write in.
Its not that I'm saying he couldn't read and write, its just the style of script doesn't seem like Rashek. Its just a feeling.
-
I'm inclined to disagree, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see who's right.
-
And, Reaves, Rashek has 1000 years between the ascension and now to learn to read and write. I'm sure he could have managed it quite well. And I think all-knowing is a pretty good style for the lord ruler to write in.
Its not that I'm saying he couldn't read and write, its just the style of script doesn't seem like Rashek. Its just a feeling.
I posted a thought about that in HOA Chapter 2:
My thought is that the Rashek, at first burning the power, had no idea what he was getting into. He changed things unintentionally, without knowing about the dire, dire consequences. However, notice the difference in tone between the MB3 epigraphs and the Lord Ruler in MB1. There's almost a hesitation in him, directly post-Ascension.
Perhaps his mind had broken into what he turned into later, consumed from the guilt from what he'd done, transforming him into the hard, cold Lord Ruler.
I didn't post the whole thing, but it could be worth your while to take a look at that topic, too.
It's kind of ironic, I was actually going to claim the "not absent" bit. Well, since I made up a good portion of the title, I'll simply have to change it to "in the event of his extended absence."
And also, I'm now officially naming Chaos as the executor of my opinions in the event of my absence. Thus, he is required to support my opinions as well as me being required to support his, so we are now in the friendly town of paradox-ville....
...except I can just be absent for a few hours and Chaos will have to support me, because his title is just in the event of my absence, while mine is now in the event of his extended absence. I win.
Short Version: I refuse :P
Long Version: Since you can warp your title to fit your needs, I could do the same thing for yours, too. I'm thinking "The Executor of Shoving Knives Down People's Throats Who Don't Believe I'm the Hero of Ages".
But, of course, since I refuse, I guess you won't have to worry about that contingency.
-
Hmm...? Happyman, are you saying that since Alendi was not the actual HOA and that since....oh i forget his name--the terrisman who at first announced Alendi as HOA but then thought better...ok anyways. Im confused, are you saying that the terrisman not only figured out that Alendi wasn't the HOA but thought it was Rashevak? He does state some attributes about his nephew( that he hates what his people are doing, letting a nonterrisman be the HOA, and that he hates Alendi more acutely). Can those be traits he bears in his metalminds of what the HOA would be like? Im i making any sense?
This isn't really my theory. I actually opposed it until I saw the chapter two bump. It just fits much better now.
There were three main human actors that we know about from the past that lead to the current world situation. There were Alendi, Kwaan and Rashek. We have heard from Alendi, who definitely was not the hero of ages (but thought he was), and from Kwaan, who knew that Alendi was not the hero of ages, despite claiming he was at first. Now we seem to have Rashek, who also clearly thought he was the hero of ages, perhaps with even more justification.
We have no evidence, however, that Kwaan though Rashek was the Hero of Ages; why Rashek thinks he is the hero of ages is something that we will hopefully find out, but it is still speculation to think that Kwaan told him.
Personally, it seems likely that the bumps were written by Rashek. However, I still don't know what he means by Hero of Ages of why he thinks that that's him. We still have a lot to learn.
-
I'm inclined to disagree, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see who's right.
Oh its on!! Loser has to wear the other's choice of a profile picture for a week!!!
-
I'm inclined to disagree, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see who's right.
Oh its on!! Loser has to wear the other's choice of a profile picture for a week!!!
:o That's intense.
-
Sounds good, Reaves. I shall start looking for humiliating pictures so that it can be particularly fun.
Chaos: Should you, in fact, choose not to refuse your title, the fact of the matter remains that I specified your title. You only sort of vaguely half specified mine. So I made up the rest. Since you weren't specific, I extrapolated a bit.... I, However, told you exactly what your title is, so you couldn't change it without my express approval. So there.
And you really shouldn't be allowed to refuse. It isn't very nice. I'm voting I still get to play the 'not absent' card.
-
So the bet is Andrew says the bumps are written by Rashek, Reaves says they're by someone else?
This should be good. I give it...two more chapters. ;)
-
So the bet is Andrew says the bumps are written by Rashek, Reaves says they're by someone else?
This should be good. I give it...two more chapters. ;)
Which is great, considering there are two more sample chapters.
Andrew: I totally did specify this! Observe!
For future reference, though... I hereby declare Andrew as the Executor of my Opinions when I am gone. You know, like an executor of someone's last will, only with fan theories.
With all things, one must look at intent. From this, since I am the writer and thus, the bestower of meaning, I inherently make intent. I'm overflowing with the stuff. The intent illuminates the meaning of "when I am gone." It refers to "any time not on TWG".
And now, for my final act. I said "declare" as my main verb in naming you. You said "I am officially naming". What does this mean?
Well, "declare" is clearly the more kingly term. The Hero of Ages is like a king.
Kings don't use passive voice in their edicts, man. Get with it :P.
-
"I am naming" is not passive voice. It's present progressive. ;)
-
"I am naming" is not passive voice. It's present progressive. ;)
Dang it, you're right. Curses!
-
You only said, "When I am gone." I had to make up the second half of the title, so therefore, I can warp the second half of the title as well.
And not only am I not passive, I'm presently progressive. Much better than being active. So obviously, mine is the more kingly way of saying it. Or in this case more heroic.
-
Well... I have a follower. Take that!