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Title: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 06, 2008, 07:59:52 PM
Because it's really starting to make me angry that we don't have one. Let's channel all Hemalurgy stuff here, okay? Just so we get everything in one theory topic.

For those of you who don't know, Hemalurgy, as Brandon said in his MB1 annotations, is how the Steel Inquisitors are the way they are.

I'm running a little short of time, so I won't be able to summarize some of the stuff already mentioned about the subject, but I'll try as much as possible.

Steel Inquisitors push away the mists. They have the power of a Mistborn. They can use atium like Mistborn can. Steel Inquisitors created through blood and human sacrifice, shown in MB1 with Marsh and in MB2 at the Conventical of Seran. So, obviously, Hemalurgy has to do with blood. Inquisitors have spikes through their eyeballs, and it's been theorized that each spike is a different metal, and they burn those metals there.

Possibly, it has been said that the Inquisitor's healing powers come from Feruchemy, using the metal inside them to store up attributes, much like the Lord Ruler.

I'm running out of time, so I'll link you all to two Hemalurgy-related topics for some, well, "feeding material". Or whatever.

http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5736.0
http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5697.0

So, Hemalurgy. Let's discuss this in depth, sorting out all the details.

Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on March 06, 2008, 11:28:38 PM
I am glad you started this thread.  Let's get rolling.  I was reading MB2 Chapter 27's annotation and EUOL mentions that Zane cutting himself quiets the voice in his head, and this has something to do with the properties of Hemalurgy.  Of course, he then basically RAFO's us, but the connection to blood and Hemalurgy is again shown.

Another Hemalurgy possibility is, of course, Vin's earring.  Her mother kills her sister then jabs the earring into Vin's ear.  She also pushes away the mists at the end of MB2, and can't draw on the mists again like she did at the end of MB1, when her earring was pushed out by TLR.  Pretty good evidence, I'd say.

In addition to Chaos' points on Steel Inquisitors, I would also add that they seem to possess additional powers beyond that of a Mistborn, like incredible healing powers, and the ability to "see" the blue lines from even the smallest amounts of metal, so much so that they can see things in great detail purely through Allomancy.

Finally, should we spend any time discussing how the SI's feel pain from the spikes based on their emotions?  Marsh and the lead Inky (Kar?), mention the pain briefly at different times.    That's all I have for now.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Shost on March 07, 2008, 12:46:44 AM
well i looked up the reference to kar feeling "the pain of joy (pg. 518 mb1)" when the inqs got control of the ministry. i get the feeling that they simply always feel pain just different kinds and to different degrees. like feeling the pain of calmness or the pain of anger. i'm just speculating here since i really have no idea what the significance could be.

as for the 'seeing' the blue lines of people, i get the feeling its just that those spikes in there eyes are either steel or iron (or maybe both) and in some way they can see the iron in people's hemoglobin (i forget who it was that mentioned hemoglobin in another thread) thought they appear to be able to 'see' metal in just about everything. oh and don't forget that vin can exploit this by throwing pewter in their eyes like she did in mb1.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 07, 2008, 03:02:00 PM
I am glad you started this thread.  Let's get rolling.  I was reading MB2 Chapter 27's annotation and EUOL mentions that Zane cutting himself quiets the voice in his head, and this has something to do with the properties of Hemalurgy.  Of course, he then basically RAFO's us, but the connection to blood and Hemalurgy is again shown.

Another Hemalurgy possibility is, of course, Vin's earring.  Her mother kills her sister then jabs the earring into Vin's ear.  She also pushes away the mists at the end of MB2, and can't draw on the mists again like she did at the end of MB1, when her earring was pushed out by TLR.  Pretty good evidence, I'd say.

In addition to Chaos' points on Steel Inquisitors, I would also add that they seem to possess additional powers beyond that of a Mistborn, like incredible healing powers, and the ability to "see" the blue lines from even the smallest amounts of metal, so much so that they can see things in great detail purely through Allomancy.

Finally, should we spend any time discussing how the SI's feel pain from the spikes based on their emotions?  Marsh and the lead Inky (Kar?), mention the pain briefly at different times.    That's all I have for now.

Aha, Chapter 27 annotations. Wonderful :D.

I would be stupid and say, "They have spikes through their body. Of course it hurts," but I won't. Oh, wait, I just did.

I'm beginning to believe that if Zane and Vin's mom heard voices, and this was because of Hemalurgy, then wouldn't that mean that Ruin (For info on Ruin, read this topic (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5739.0). Very illuminating) can also affect the Steel Inquisitors? If Zane can hear Ruin because of his bizarre spike in him, then Inquisitors should be having this a lot worse.

Then again, Marsh did go "crazy" at the end of MB2. He constantly states that he doesn't know why he's doing it. Ruin controlling him, perhaps?

Here's something else about the voices (which is, perhaps, still on the topic of Hemalurgy). If the Lord Ruler was surpressing Ruin (aka the Deepness) during his reign, could Ruin still have influenced Inquisitors? Kar's viewpoint makes me think no here, but Vin's mom absolutely heard voices before the Lord Ruler's death.

Which means, of course, that Ruin's been manipulating things for a long, long time.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on March 07, 2008, 05:37:57 PM
A few other questions:

How did Vin's mother hear the voices as well. Was a ritual using Hemalurgy done on her or is this even a prerequisite?

It seems that the Inquisitors had been looking for Vin since she was but a babe. You would think that if Ruin was speaking to Vin's mother as well as the Inquisitors, they wouldn't have needed to look because they would know exactly where she was. Was it actually Preservation communicating with Vin's mother? Was Preservation speaking with Vin's brother, telling him to keep Vin alive, make her tough, etc?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on March 07, 2008, 06:14:34 PM
Not to stray off topic, but it seems apparent that Preservation doesn't speak to anyone, which is why the mist spirit just points and stabs people.  OK, back on topic:  Marsh basically admits that he is being told to do these things.  There is no question in my mind that Ruin manipulates people through metals.  He can change what is stored in a metal mind, and it is apparent to me that it can exert some kind of control over Hemallurgic metals. 
       Chaos, since you are already rereading MB2, see if you can find something related to metals inside the Koloss.  I could have sworn I remember some reference about each of them have a small metal nail or something like that, but I could be wrong.

VeagsDev, I think that having Hemalurgic metal piercing your body is a prerequisite to hearing the voice of Ruin.  You should ask how the Inquisitors were so sure of Vin's existence?  I think they were subtly made aware of her.  The Lord Ruler was staunchly opposed to changing the Ministry's power structure.  The act of changing his mind caused his death, which is exactly what needed to happen in order for a new "Hero" to release the Well's power.   The Inq's also seemed to always be right behind her, almost as if she left a trail, or was being monitored through her earring.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 07, 2008, 06:51:12 PM
No VegasDev. If Vin's mom was controlled by anything, it's Ruin. You know why? Ruin wants to keep Vin alive. Ruin chose Vin to be the false Hero of Ages so she could release Ruin.

And I'll give you citations!

p. 417 - This page (Well of Ascension, of course) is where she tells Elend where she got her earring. She describes that her mother heard voices. Her mother killed her sister, but then gave Vin the earring. Vin says, "As if... as if choosing me over my sister. A punishment for one, a twisted present for another." If we link Ruin to this, then it's obvious that Ruin, at a very early time, decided Vin was the one he wanted.

And so, like any ultra-manipulative uber-spirit locked away for a millennium, he began to spend his time manipulate things to bring Vin to the Well of Ascension.

p. 453 - Zane's death scene. Zane thought that Vin would save him because she was the only one the voice (God) didn't want to kill. The minute Zane thought this, God whispered "Of course I don't want you to kill her." Then, in a twist of fate, God says that Zane was never insane.

This tells us some very interesting things. Obviously, the "God" is Ruin, this has already been mentioned several times in the forum, so that shouldn't be a surprise. But the interesting thing is that Ruin wants to destroy everything. Zane is told to kill everything, all the time. No exceptions. Except for Vin. Why Vin? Because Ruin wants Vin to release him at the Well of Ascension.

Back to Hemalurgy, I think we can say Hemalurgy is the "art of wielding the metals inside your body". Loose definition, yes, but it's something to go on.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on March 07, 2008, 07:16:18 PM
It definitely has benefits, but we are learning how high the price is, aren't we?  I wonder what Zane's spike was made of?  I think it was made of either Steel or Atium.  My only evidence to support these choices are:
1.  His amazing control he possessed when pushing of metal.  He could hover, and slowly raise and lower himself while changing position in mid air, something Vin is amazed by.  It could be from lots of practice, but maybe not.

2.  He seems able to burn Atium for much longer than Vin ever does, and he has no concerns about getting more.  He has his own stash, but does he need it?  He burns Atium the entire time at the Keep where Cett was hiding out.  He burns Atium during the entire fight against Vin, and never to we see him ingest metals.  He could just have a ton, or again, could have an enhanced ability.

Of course, this all hinges on whether or not my theory about Hemalurgy is correct.  It scares me that I almost want to learn more about this than how Ruin will be defeated!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 07, 2008, 10:21:11 PM
I doubt it's an atium spike. It mentions earlier that Zane had his own stockpile of atium, so Straff trying to control him by giving him atium was quite fruitless. So it makes it seem like he has a lot of atium to spare.

Now, steel, on the other hand, is a lot more likely. Perhaps the nature of Hemalurgy is it "enhances" Allomancy in a way. Steel spikes give more control over steel. Bronze earring gives the ability to pierce copperclouds. 

We could be wrong here, but maybe not. A bronze earring just seems too coincidental for it to not be deliberate. I mean, Brandon went through all this trouble to get a cool alloy for aluminum, so I don't think he'd tell us that the earring was specifically bronze, only to later say it was all unintentional.

I think a question to ask is, though, how does Hemalurgy have anything to do with Ruin talking in your mind?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on March 08, 2008, 09:56:01 AM
My guess is that the process of Hemallurgy makes the metal a part of the recipient.  This would allow Its influence to pass through the metal to the host, if you will.  The amount of metal in a person's body also seems to have a direct effect on the amount of influence exerted.  There is no doubt that Ruin can manipulate metals in Feruchemy, and little doubt in my mind that It can influence Hemallurgy.  The only thing it doesn't seem to control is Allomancy.  At least, there has been no evidence of that yet.  "There's always another secret".  I may quote that in my sig.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 08, 2008, 04:03:35 PM
I suppose, but Hemalurgy seems to me like an... "enhancer" of Allomancy. If piercing copperclouds is from Hemalurgy, then it looks like Hemalurgy gives you more power over Allomancy. Maybe this is because Hemalurgy allows you to control how the metals burn in your body, which gives you crazy more control over everything.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 09, 2008, 12:26:37 AM
That stuff about the inquisitors being able to track VIn through Hemalurgy seems to ring true, but I don't think it's because of Hemalurgy.  In the first book Clubs says something about the Inquisitors canb catch up with all of them eventually.  My guess would be that the Inquisitors use the Bronze spike to see allomantic pulses that are still hanging in the air.   We already know they can see trace amounts of metal everywhere, and pierce copper clouds, so why couldn't they sense old allomantic pulses.  Just a guess of course. 
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 09, 2008, 06:12:36 AM
I really need to reread MB1 for those clues about Inquisitors. My memory is a bit fuzzy.

If Inquisitors can pierce copperclouds, then there's no question: that ability comes from Hemalurgy. The Lord Ruler definitely has enough piercings to qualify him as a Hemalurgist, Inquisitors obviously have the spikes, and Vin has her earring.

Hmmm... Hemalurgy is weird. Allomancy, by nature (as far as we know, without enhancement), cannot affect metals inside of someone, and yet, with Hemalurgy, you can. We need to start to apply some rules to Hemalurgy. All of this abstract thought is painful...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 09, 2008, 09:29:46 PM
A bit hard to apply rules to something we don't fully understand, tisn't it?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 09, 2008, 09:55:48 PM
By applying rules, we can begin the process of understanding :D.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: rjl on March 09, 2008, 10:39:15 PM
By applying rules, we can begin the process of understanding :D.
That's as perverse as physics...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 10, 2008, 12:07:03 AM
Well, I'm going to be a Physics major when I start college in the fall, so I guess that's what you get. :D
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Shost on March 10, 2008, 12:45:44 AM
Allomancy, by nature (as far as we know, without enhancement), cannot affect metals inside of someone, and yet, with Hemalurgy, you can.

i don't think it was hemallurgy that made that possible. i mean vin LOST her earring in that fight and its been mentioned before that that is what allowed her to draw upon the mists and it was that power that allowed her to affect the lord ruler's metal. and it never mentions that inqs have that ability. just the lord ruler and vin when drawing on the mists.

as for rules i think rule 1 is that there is some kind of ritual sacrifice involved before a hemallurgical piercing is made.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 10, 2008, 01:06:53 AM
There I go with forgetting important things. Sorry about that, my wires get crossed sometimes.

I agree with Rule Number 1. Brandon has stated in the MB1 annotations that making Steel Inquisitors through Hemalurgy requires a blood sacrifice, so it's not too far a stretch to apply that to all Hemalurgists.

In Vin's case, the blood sacrifice could be her own sister (as her mother killed her and then gave the earring to Vin).

I would like to correct my original statement, then. We have a paradox, then. People with metals inside of them, like Zane and Inquisitors, have their special Hemalurgic powers. Vin can pierce copperclouds. It seems to work fine, right?

Except for the mist. Vin using the mist to attack the Lord Ruler throws a significant wrench in things. But, Steel Inquisitors push away mist. That has to be something Hemalurgy related. That leads me to believe that when Vin channels the mists, it isn't Hemalurgy, just because the nature of Hemalurgy pushes the mist away.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: rjl on March 10, 2008, 01:19:12 AM
"That leads me to believe that when Vin channels the mists, it isn't Hemalurgy, just because the nature of Hemalurgy pushes the mist away."
That sounds slightly wishy washy, lets put it more plainly, when Vin channels the mist it can't be Hemalurgy.

My guess is that Vin is a powerful Mistborn, and is therefore able to channel mist without any kind of assistance, of course when being augmented by her Hemalurgy imbued earing she can't channel mist as the earing repels it.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 10, 2008, 01:25:34 AM
:P My logic mode tends to not be very, uh, powerful writing. More thinking out loud, if you will.

It's possible, though, that the reason Vin can channel the mists isn't solely because she's so powerful, but because of something Ruin or Preservation is doing through the mists. See the topic called "Ruin and Preservation" for more on that.

So, for summary:

1. To gain Hemalurgic powers, one must have a blood sacrifice.
2. Channeling the mists as Vin did against the Lord Ruler is not Hemalurgy.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 11, 2008, 12:16:31 AM
We can also agree that hemalurgy involves metals within the body.  As far as we know for sure, it has to be a metal spike like the inquisitors and Zane have, but the number can be variable.  It also possible for it to be an earing, like the one Vin wears, but this is not certain.


I agree that using the mists is something separate, but I'm not entirely sure that Ruin and Preservation are involved.  It's possible that Ruin and Preservation both have power over the mists, and Vin has somehow learned to use this power as well.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on March 11, 2008, 04:58:06 PM
I think we can be pretty certain that Vin's earring has Hemallurgic properties, as it pushes away the mist, and allows her to feel the Well pulsing.  It was also posted on another thread that Alendi had the "piercing of the Hero" or something like that, and he wrote in his diary that he felt the same pulsing.  Only Vind and Alendi could feel this.   Zane could hear the God voice, and the Inqie's were under much more influence by the end of book 2.  EUOL has said that the mists do have a connection with Allomancy.  Hemallurgy appears to have the opposite effect.  I would think that Ruin influence over Hemallurgy would make it an opposing force to the mists, but we can't be sure.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 11, 2008, 06:13:23 PM
That certainly makes sense, darxbane, but then how is Ruin causing the killings in the mist if its the thing that "opposes" the mists? We seem to get back to the same paradoxes every time.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on March 11, 2008, 08:06:47 PM
No VegasDev. If Vin's mom was controlled by anything, it's Ruin. You know why? Ruin wants to keep Vin alive. Ruin chose Vin to be the false Hero of Ages so she could release Ruin.

So because Ruin wants Vin alive it is not possible that Preservation also wants her alive and also played a role in her surviving? Because Ruin wants her alive she is automatically the False Hero of Ages? If that's the case, I am not looking forward to book 3, because it's obvious that Vin's only contribution to the series is freeing Ruin and destroying the world.  ;)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on March 11, 2008, 09:59:51 PM
I am sure that is not Vin's only purpose.  She got to kill Straff, and that is something I would have stood in line to do. ;D  In all seriousness, this could be an example of how the Hero can benefit both sides, and it is the choices made by the Hero that ultimately decide who wins. She still has a chance to fix her mistake, after all. The Preservation spirit's involvement have not been revealed in much detail yet.  It could have been helping Vin in ways we don't know.  It did try to keep her from freeing Ruin, but in a very indirect way.  Maybe the Mist Spirit isn't Preservation, just a guardian of the Well.

Chaos, I agree.  Either Ruin can use the mists and influence Hemallurgy, or the deaths in the mists have nothing to do with Ruin at all.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Plasman on March 11, 2008, 11:50:28 PM
i'm a little skeptical of your second rule since it seems obvious to me that there are several different types of hemalurgic powers, but i'd like to propose a third one.

3) Individuals with hemalurgic piercings are open to influence from ruin and possibly other entities.

i'd also like to point out that while hemalurgy does seem to be used in unison with allomancy and possibly feruchemy, that it is its own separate magic system. it is not simply an other-power-amplifier. afterall, it does seem like hemalurgy was around long before allomancy. it's likely that the lord ruler just found a way to use them to compliment each other like he did with feruchemy.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 11, 2008, 11:59:02 PM
Just because Alendi had piercings, doesn't make them Hemalurgic, I just thought it was interesting that they both had piercings, Alendi proclaiming him as the hero, Vin's mother proclaimed her a Queen.  Remember, the legends were of Terris Origin, and the Terris people are known to wear Jewelery.  While we can assume about Vin's earing because of the sacrifice, we do not know the manner in which Alendi recieved his piercing.  They could be Hemalurgic however.  Somehow, I think that Vin and Alendi's aren't the same as the inquisitors or Zane, perhaps a different form of Hemalurgy?  After all, they cannot hear Ruin's voice, and wouldn't they be the people Ruin wants to influence most of all?  Again, I'm not saying I disagree, I just think that there are other possibilities.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Shost on March 12, 2008, 04:41:09 AM
as i've mentioned in other threads i think that Alendi is a hemallurgist. i think it would be an interesting parallel between him and Vin. from what Kwann said it seems that the piercings were a necessary part of being the Hero.

we do not know the manner in which Alendi recieved his piercing.

i think we can actually assume that they were given to him after people began to believe he was the Hero. i think it mentions them as the "piercings of the Hero" as if there were something to differentiate them from other, more mundane piercings like those of the terrisman or from any piercings that Alendi may have had before becoming the Hero. so i think Alendi's a hemallurgist. to what degree is unclear. for example Vin is certainly less hemallurgic than the inqs but i get the feeling that Alendi parallels Vin and is hemallurgic in a similar fashion.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on March 12, 2008, 09:40:19 PM
I was thinking the same thing, Shost.  Just for fun though, let's twist it a little.  Maybe Alendi already had the piercings.  Maybe the Khlennium people were skilled in Hemallurgy.  How else could they oppress the Terris World Bringers?  All our pal Ruin would have to do is twist the prophecy to say that the Hero of Ages would be pierced this way.  It made everything else up, why not this too?  All it needed was someone with Hemallurgy to get close enough to feel the pulsing.  This is a pretty wild theory, but you all love it, dont you?  :-*
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Shost on March 12, 2008, 10:44:24 PM
This is a pretty wild theory, but you all love it, dont you? :-*

lol of course we do. and who knows, maybe he did have some hemallurgic piercings before hand. maybe those were what kwann spoke of. or maybe he got some more when declaring himself the hero. either way i think he was a hemallurgist.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 12, 2008, 11:26:46 PM
What I meant by the manner in which he recieved his piercings, I was talking about if their was a ritual sacrifice or not.  I'm guessing not because if there were, wouldn't that be something he would have written about in his log book.  I'm pretty sure the piercings were unique to Alendi to mark him as the hero because he says Rashek was jealous of him and thought he wore the piercings unjustly.  Why would Rashek think it was unjust for a Khlennium person to wear Khlennium piercings?  Also I'm pretty sure they are referred to as the piercings of the hero, which means they were probably unique to Alendi.  It's true the piercings could be hemalurgic, but it could also be they are jsut related to the well spirit.  The Hemalurgists we see in the book depend so much on Allomancy, that I find it hard to believe they existed separately.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Shost on March 13, 2008, 05:15:11 AM
i agree that the piercings were unique. but i think they were given in ritual sacrifice. and i don't think that Alendi would have mentioned it in the logbook because it seems that the Anticipation was pretty well known. in which case the ritual piercings would be practically common knowledge (especially to him) and so why go into too much detail?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on March 13, 2008, 03:10:31 PM
You could all be right about the piercings coming from the Terris.  My angle was that Rashek hated the fact that a Khlennium was chosen as the hero of Terris prophecy.  If the piercings were a source of power, and another Khlennium tradition that was somehow infused with Terris prophecy, would he not hate that, as well?  I could be wrong about the Terris, but I don't feel they would be into the whole human sacrifice thing.  They were (and still are) keepers of knowledge.  They may have even been pacifistic by nature.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Shost on March 13, 2008, 06:39:58 PM
hmmm...but does it have to be human sacrifice? maybe they could sacrifice a goat or something like that like the Greeks did. lol i'm just being the devils advocate here.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on March 13, 2008, 08:51:07 PM
I know what you mean!  The belief is that a blood sacrifice is involved, but to what level?  The story lends little to the rules; even Allomancy is not fully understood yet.  It could just be assumed that the person needs to die.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Shost on March 14, 2008, 12:08:53 AM
It could just be assumed that the person needs to die.

too true. could be like pirates of the caribbean (the first one?) where he only pricked her when we all assumed he was gonna cut her throat.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on March 14, 2008, 08:23:03 PM
Exactly.  I actually thought the same thing about the first Pirates movie. 
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: walkwist on March 14, 2008, 09:39:56 PM
Different direction: I'm curious about Zane and the healing properties of hemalurgy.

If Zane had a spike through his chest, he must at least have had hemalurgy's advanced healing abilities or the spike should kill him.  If that were the case, why did Vin's stab kill him so quickly?  Not enough spikes?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: cloversprite on March 15, 2008, 02:44:51 AM
Are we completely sure Zane's dead?  As I recall, there was no body disposed of....

This thread is so interesting; I love all of y'all's speculations! (Makes me realize just how much I tend to read on the surface and not dig out the deep details until the umpteenth read-through  ;D )
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Kelsier on March 15, 2008, 03:24:06 AM
Has anyone noticed the similarities between the word Hemallurgy and Metallurgy? It's possible this is the word Brandon twisted to come up with this name. Metallurgy, as some of you may know already, is the study of metals. You can probably see where I'd draw the connection.

Of course, this doesn't mean much—I just thought I'd mention it.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 16, 2008, 08:10:48 PM
Yes, Zane is definately dead, we've been through this on another thread, and God's words telling him he's not really insane, are the last he heard.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 17, 2008, 03:28:35 AM
On the matter of the human sacrifice, I believe it must be human. I am very certain that when Marsh was Inquisitor-ized in MB1 there were a bunch of dead human bodies around him. In the Conventical of Seran, there were human bones in there, too.

The Lord Ruler and the Inquisitors are pretty vicious, but I think if they could make the sacrifice without using humans, they would.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 17, 2008, 11:46:59 PM
Now another question, do the people being sacrificed have to be of one nationality.  In this case, do they have to be Skaa?  And if so then why.  Maybe the Hemalurgy really is a Skaa power, and that's why the Lord Ruler wouldn't let them breed, however, the power can be passed on through blood.  I'm just spinning thoughts around of course, but I think it's a possibility.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on March 18, 2008, 04:25:04 PM
Skaa are encouraged to breed, so they can be easily disposed of without hurting the workforce.  It is the Terris who's breeding is controlled.  Skaa is just another word for Peasant; they are not a separate race from the nobles.       
Yes, all three magic systems have references to metal in them: Hemaglobin and Metallurgy becomes Hemallurgy (Blood Metal), Ferris (Iron) and Alchemy becomes Feruchemy, and Alloy with the suffix "mancy" to make Allomancy.  It is interesting that Hemallurgy seems to be the most descriptive of the three.  Feruchemy and Allomancy sound like abilities.  Hemallurgy, however, seems to describe the process more than the magic.  Metallurgy is not just the study of metals, but also the  process of combining metals to make alloys. 

The number of spikes, as well as what they are made of, must be a factor.  I also think they would kill the subject even if it wasn't necessary to ensure knowledge of the process was not leaked.  If the Skaa learned how to create beings to challenge the Inquisitors, it would make the Lord ruler's job more difficult.  Remember, this is a person who required Skaa women to be killed after Nobles bedded them, just to ensure the Skaa would not gain Allomancy, and executed Skaa nonstop for 7 hours after the Rebel army was defeated.  They didn't even win the battle!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 20, 2008, 02:32:36 AM
Sorry I wasn't clear, when I said the Lord Ruler didn't let Skaa breed, I was referring to the fact that the nobility weren't supposed to breed with them.  It could be that the Lord Ruler didn't want the Skaa to become Allomancers, but why would her care?  He's stronger than any mistborn anyway, and there's only been two skaa mistborn.  Of course, Vin did end up defeating him, but that's not because she's skaa, unless drawing on the mists is a skaa power as well?  Maybe drawing on the mists is Skaa magic in it's pure form, and that's why they The Lord Ruler didn't want them to get allomancy, because only someone wielding the mists and allomancy could challenge him, and Hemalurgy is just the process of transferring the power of the mists from the skaa to the inquisitors, and that's why the mists pull away from them, because they are unnatural.  Interesting Theory, eh??
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Cosmic_AC on March 24, 2008, 11:41:13 AM
Has anyone noticed the similarities between the word Hemallurgy and Metallurgy? It's possible this is the word Brandon twisted to come up with this name. Metallurgy, as some of you may know already, is the study of metals. You can probably see where I'd draw the connection.

Of course, this doesn't mean much—I just thought I'd mention it.

Feruchemy = Ferrus (iron, but the meaning can generalize to just "metals") + Alchemy (chemical magic).

Allomancy = Alloy (homogeneous mixture of pure elements, mostly metals) + --Mancy (magic).

Hemallurgy = Hemoglobin (a form of iron in the blood which has the unusual property of not being magnetic) + Metallurgy (study of metals, as you said).

EUOL just combined various words to name his magic systems, and the names fit.  Especially with what we know of the connection between Hemallurgy and blood.

Also, Comatose, I had the same idea: Feruchemy is exclusively Terris while Allomancy is exclusively "Noble" (whatever clan they are supposed to be).  Would it be too much of a stretch for Hemallurgy to be normally Skaa?  Especially with what we know of the Lord Ruler's breeding laws, it seems as though he didn't want anyone born who could combine two or more "metal magics".  Perhaps the blood sacrifice needed to create Inquisitors absolutely has to come from Skaa blood?

Ooh, one more thought.  There's been a lot of discussion of how Vin being a Hemallurgist doesn't "explain" her being able to draw on the mists.  Well, what if Hemallurgy worked similarly to Feruchemy -- that is, it could be reversed for another sort of power.  So if she used Hemallurgy before to enhance her Bronze, maybe she pushed away some mists and didn't realize it.  And then when she lost her earring maybe the power worked in reverse -- drawing mists in for power.  Pure speculation, but it's fun to think about.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 25, 2008, 11:28:44 PM
the prefix hema is also used in hemaphobia (hemophobia?, I forget the spelling, sorry), the fear of blood. 
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on March 26, 2008, 06:51:20 PM
Right, and Hematology is the study of blood.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 26, 2008, 08:16:48 PM
Hemalurgy almost sounds more like a process than an actual magic system, perhaps inquisitors DO just use allomancy, but the process used to create them, and make them powerful is called hemalurgy.  I'm beginning to like my skaa hemalurgy sacrifice theory more and more.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 27, 2008, 02:18:48 AM
My rereading of MB1 has told me some things about the Steel Inquisitors. One thing is that Inquisitors sleep a lot. This hasn't been talking about in this topic, so I'm bringing it up now. I would suspect that this is partially where they get their healing powers--by sleeping a lot. Or, it could be that those spikes really hurt and they need to sleep to get over the pain.

Maybe, also, we should discuss why separating the spikes on an Inquisitor kills them. It could lead to some Hemalurgical revelations.

I am also now thinking that Vin's mom's "blood sacrifice" to make Vin a supposed Hemalurgist is fairly... mundane. Inquisitors require a lot of blood and lots of victims to create--but then again, their Hemalurgy is no doubt far more powerful than Vin's. But still. More blood and more sacrifice means more Hemalurgical abilities.

Hemalurgy by being a skaa power is interesting... and I love it so much :D.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 27, 2008, 09:29:31 PM
Maybe the blood sacrifices releases the power in the Skaa blood, and imbeds it in the spikes, and the Inquisitors sleeping is them drawing more of this power out of the spikes, like the lord ruler, sort of.  And thier allomancy is just normal allomancy, but strengthened by hemalurgy.  Maybe hemalurgy just superpowers talents that are already there.  I think if we're going to assume that Vin is a hemalurgist, we must also assume that inquisitors burn metals, because Vin burns bronze despite the hemalurgic earing that strengthens her bronze.  Vin kind of got the bonus here, she's a mistborn, but skaa, so she can still draw on the mist, and she also has the hemalurgic earring to boost her allomantic powers, so she can kind of be both.
Oh, and that could actually make Alendi a potential hemalurgist because he wouldn't need allomancy, hemalurgy just strengthened his natural attributes as a warrior, and proabably increase his healing abilities as well.  The one problem with the Vin+Bronze Hemalurgic Earring=Vin piercing copper clouds theory, is that Bronze isn't Vin's only super powered metal, she also has very powerful pewter, if you remember the thug-head explosion incident.  Now was the earring bornze or pewter, I can't remember.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 27, 2008, 09:40:42 PM
I am fairly certain the earring is bronze, but without my copy of WoA with me at the moment, I do not have evidence to verify that.

I also came to the realization that the reason Inquisitors have the powers of a Mistborn is because they ate the metal Elend ate, thus granting them that power. It would also make their Allomancy quite powerful, because the Allomancers in the early days were very powerful, according to TenSoon.

Which, by consequence, makes Elend powerful.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 27, 2008, 09:47:58 PM
But is he more powerful than Vin or is vin more powerful?  I mean, she's more powerful than the inquisitors now isn't she?  Unless, Vin ate the metal too?  Does it ever say her father was mistborn?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 27, 2008, 09:55:46 PM
Not explicitly. Kar implies, however, that Tevidian's line is very pure, and only a line that pure would make a skaa Mistborn.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 27, 2008, 10:15:59 PM
Right, and do we ever find out who Kelsier's father is.  There are only two Skaa mistborn, and both turn out to be very powerful, Vin a lot more than Kelsier, but still, Kelsier was pretty amazing compared to everyone else, is this a coincidence, I'm beginning to like my skaa blood idea more and more, while Kelsier couldn't draw on the mist, his skaa blood still strengthened his allomancy.  Skaa blood strengthens allomancy, and can be used thought hemalurgy to strenghten other things as well, which is why the lrod ruler didn't wan t them to mix, he didn't want any extra strong allomancer running around opposing his empire, of course he wasn't as worried about them, because they still couldn't live forever or heal really quick like him, but he still didn't want a lot of them.  And he created the really powerful inquisitors, with a weakness, the back spike, which he could easily exploit because he can push and pull metals inside the body.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on March 28, 2008, 06:33:45 PM
My rereading of MB1 has told me some things about the Steel Inquisitors. One thing is that Inquisitors sleep a lot. This hasn't been talking about in this topic, so I'm bringing it up now. I would suspect that this is partially where they get their healing powers--by sleeping a lot. Or, it could be that those spikes really hurt and they need to sleep to get over the pain.

Maybe, also, we should discuss why separating the spikes on an Inquisitor kills them. It could lead to some Hemalurgical revelations.

I am also now thinking that Vin's mom's "blood sacrifice" to make Vin a supposed Hemalurgist is fairly... mundane. Inquisitors require a lot of blood and lots of victims to create--but then again, their Hemalurgy is no doubt far more powerful than Vin's. But still. More blood and more sacrifice means more Hemalurgical abilities.

Hemalurgy by being a skaa power is interesting... and I love it so much :D.

I had discussed this previously, but it didn't take off, probably because I suggested that the Inquisitors may not actually use Hemalurgy. I have my arguments, but I don't want to get into that. Anyway, here is one of my quotes relating to Inquisitors resting and being killed by pulling a spike.

Quote from:
Hemalurgy is used to create Inquisitors, but does that mean that the Inquisitors use Hemalurgy? If they do, then it appears Hemalurgy is a cross between Feruchemy and Allomancy. They can push pull metals and maybe burn atium, but they appear also able to store health like a feruchemist. I believe (I'll have to check when I get home) that it mentions somewhere that the Inquisitors need to rest for long periods of time, presumably to store up health. The rod that is pulled from their backs that kills them probably stores this health. I can't wait for HoA, this speculating is killing me.
Quote
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on March 28, 2008, 07:39:40 PM
Wow.  We are getting a little out of control here.  Let's clarify a few points:

First, Vin's explosive headbutt was due to a Duralumin enhanced flare of Pewter.  Her piercing of copperclouds was the only definitive strength above Kelsier, and she didn't appear to have any clear advantages over Zane. In fact, when Zane countered with his own duralumin he sent her flying.  Also remember that the only other person we know of who could pierce copper clouds was the Lord Ruler, and he was using all three magic systems.
Second, we know of three "Skaa" Mistborn, not two, and there is no proof that there aren't more out there that we just don't know about.  The only difference between Skaa and Nobles are that the ancesters of the "Nobles" were sympathizers of the Lord Ruler's cause.  Brandon has said that the work Skaa is another word for peasant.  That does not lead me to believe that Skaa are a separate race of human from nobles.

Third, Kar implied that only a relatively pure bloodline would lead to a Skaa Mistborn who was this powerful.  It does not mean that it is impossible for other nobles to bear Skaa Mistborn.  Straff proves that with Zane.  In fact, all of Straff's mistings are also born of Skaa mothers.  The lord ruler didn't want Skaa to become Mistborn because he didn't want his gift given to those who opposed him.

Fourth,  if the Lord Ruler had enough of these allomancy beads to give to  all the noble ancestors and continue to make Inquisitors (they do die after a while), then why all the spikes?  If he wanted a way to control them, why not just the one in the back?  Has anyone thought about the fact that in order to see, an SI would need to burn Iron or steel at all times? 

  I do believe that Elend will be more powerful than Vin. If Tevidian (sp?) was from a very pure line, then there may be little difference, however. 

Finally, I will throw in a theory of my own.  Let's say that Vin's mom did, in fact have Hemallurgy powers of some sort.  There has been no mention of what would happen to a Mistborn's abilities if one of their parents were Hemallurgical.  Maybe that is the source of her overall strength.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on March 28, 2008, 09:50:58 PM
Her piercing of copperclouds was the only definitive strength above Kelsier

Agreed, however Kelsier noted on more than one occasion how unnaturally strong she was, like when they would get into a pushing match.

Also remember that the only other person we know of who could pierce copper clouds was the Lord Ruler, and he was using all three magic systems.

How do we know he was using all three magic systems again?

Agree on pretty much everything else.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 28, 2008, 10:54:27 PM
In fact, all of Straff's mistings are also born of Skaa mothers.
I am pretty sure that all Straff's mistresses in his breeding program were (lesser) nobility and that he was sure to kill any skaa he slept with.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 28, 2008, 11:06:38 PM
That's what I thought too, he had Elend's firs Skaa mistress killed, and someone said something about Straff always cleaning up his messes didn't they?  I'm pretty sure Amantra and the others aren't Skaa.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Seraf on March 29, 2008, 02:57:12 AM
Ookla, I would like to ask if your opinion about the mothers in the breeding program is colored by how you've been one of the people involved in the pre-reading of these books from the start, or if I'm mistaken and you weren't one of the early [pre-publishing]readers. I always thought that the women were skaa; in fact, I thought that Straff says that in the book... anyways, on a side-note, Hema means blood, it's not just the suffix to Hematology.
      On another note, I've been wondering about how there are only 12 spikes. Wouldn't this mean that they don't have the High Allomantic metal powers?...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 29, 2008, 03:39:16 PM
My rereading of MB1 has told me some things about the Steel Inquisitors. One thing is that Inquisitors sleep a lot. This hasn't been talking about in this topic, so I'm bringing it up now. I would suspect that this is partially where they get their healing powers--by sleeping a lot. Or, it could be that those spikes really hurt and they need to sleep to get over the pain.

Maybe, also, we should discuss why separating the spikes on an Inquisitor kills them. It could lead to some Hemalurgical revelations.

I am also now thinking that Vin's mom's "blood sacrifice" to make Vin a supposed Hemalurgist is fairly... mundane. Inquisitors require a lot of blood and lots of victims to create--but then again, their Hemalurgy is no doubt far more powerful than Vin's. But still. More blood and more sacrifice means more Hemalurgical abilities.

Hemalurgy by being a skaa power is interesting... and I love it so much :D.

I had discussed this previously, but it didn't take off, probably because I suggested that the Inquisitors may not actually use Hemalurgy. I have my arguments, but I don't want to get into that. Anyway, here is one of my quotes relating to Inquisitors resting and being killed by pulling a spike.

Quote from:
Hemalurgy is used to create Inquisitors, but does that mean that the Inquisitors use Hemalurgy? If they do, then it appears Hemalurgy is a cross between Feruchemy and Allomancy. They can push pull metals and maybe burn atium, but they appear also able to store health like a feruchemist. I believe (I'll have to check when I get home) that it mentions somewhere that the Inquisitors need to rest for long periods of time, presumably to store up health. The rod that is pulled from their backs that kills them probably stores this health. I can't wait for HoA, this speculating is killing me.
Quote

I apologize. Usually I'm pretty good at catching posts like that. Though, I looked in this topic, and it wasn't posted there. If you could point me to the topic where your post was, I would appreciate it.

Hmm. You do have a good point, VegasDev. Brandon has only confirmed that the Inquisitors were created with Hemalurgy (by the way, VegasDev, that's how we know the Lord Ruler uses Hemalurgy, because he created the Inquisitors).

It's possible that they don't actually use Hemalurgy. Their powers, instead, could be the result of the Lord Ruler's Hemalurgical process it took to create Inquisitors, rather than being because they consciously use Hemalurgy. Which, coincidentally, matches up with what the Lord Ruler said about Inquisitors.

Quote
"What do you think, child?" the Lord Ruler asked quietly. "To defeat me? Am I some common Inquisitor, my powers endowed fabrications?"

Fabrications. That's important.

Oh, and there seems to be a bit of confusion about that spike in Inquisitors' backs, that they seem to be different metals. Sorry to disappoint:

Quote
"Inquisitors!" the Lord Ruler yelled. "Come to--"
The Lord Ruler froze, noticing something sitting just outside the door. A small group of steel spikes, just like the one Marsh had pulled from Kar's back, lay piled on the floor. There looked to be about seven of them.

Steel, then, are what the spikes are made of. "Steel" ministry, "Steel" Inquisitors. We already know that the spikes in the Inquisitors' heads are made of steel, so, I think with the obsession of naming everything "Steel" whatever, that every spike in an Inquisitor is steel, not other metals.

Which, by the way, ruins your theory of Inquisitors storing health with Feruchemy. In Feruchemy, Steel stores Speed (Gold is the metal that stores health).

A good, valiant effort, VegasDev, but it seems we are all on the wrong path.

Moving onto the next post I should talk about:

Quote from: darxbane
Third, Kar implied that only a relatively pure bloodline would lead to a Skaa Mistborn who was this powerful.  It does not mean that it is impossible for other nobles to bear Skaa Mistborn.  Straff proves that with Zane.  In fact, all of Straff's mistings are also born of Skaa mothers.  The lord ruler didn't want Skaa to become Mistborn because he didn't want his gift given to those who opposed him.

Fourth,  if the Lord Ruler had enough of these allomancy beads to give to  all the noble ancestors and continue to make Inquisitors (they do die after a while), then why all the spikes?  If he wanted a way to control them, why not just the one in the back?  Has anyone thought about the fact that in order to see, an SI would need to burn Iron or steel at all times?

Yeah, I probably should have looked closer at the Kar passage when I posted that up.

Aha, about the burning steel all the time. I think, if all the spikes are made of steel, then there is plenty of steel to go around. That is probably one of the reasons for the spikes. If the spikes are the things that give Inquisitors their "fabricated" powers, however, then there is more to them than meets the eye.

Quote from: Seraf
On another note, I've been wondering about how there are only 12 spikes. Wouldn't this mean that they don't have the High Allomantic metal powers?...

There are eleven, actually.

Quote
"Does that... hurt, Marsh?" she asked. "The spikes, I mean."

He paused. "Yes. All eleven of them... throb. The pain reacts to my emotions somehow."

I suggest we all start citing sources from the books so we don't get off on tangents... we seem to be doing a very good job at that.


EDIT:

I would like to slightly revise my Inquisitor-Allomancy theory, or at least poke holes in it. If the 15th metal gave them Allomancy, then why does their Allomancy repel the mists? Think about it ;P
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on March 29, 2008, 10:28:27 PM

Quote from:
Hemalurgy is used to create Inquisitors, but does that mean that the Inquisitors use Hemalurgy? If they do, then it appears Hemalurgy is a cross between Feruchemy and Allomancy. They can push pull metals and maybe burn atium, but they appear also able to store health like a feruchemist. I believe (I'll have to check when I get home) that it mentions somewhere that the Inquisitors need to rest for long periods of time, presumably to store up health. The rod that is pulled from their backs that kills them probably stores this health. I can't wait for HoA, this speculating is killing me.

Oh, and there seems to be a bit of confusion about that spike in Inquisitors' backs, that they seem to be different metals. Sorry to disappoint:

Quote
"Inquisitors!" the Lord Ruler yelled. "Come to--"
The Lord Ruler froze, noticing something sitting just outside the door. A small group of steel spikes, just like the one Marsh had pulled from Kar's back, lay piled on the floor. There looked to be about seven of them.

Steel, then, are what the spikes are made of. "Steel" ministry, "Steel" Inquisitors. We already know that the spikes in the Inquisitors' heads are made of steel, so, I think with the obsession of naming everything "Steel" whatever, that every spike in an Inquisitor is steel, not other metals.

Which, by the way, ruins your theory of Inquisitors storing health with Feruchemy. In Feruchemy, Steel stores Speed (Gold is the metal that stores health).

A good, valiant effort, VegasDev, but it seems we are all on the wrong path

I didn't say that the Steel Inquisitors used Feruchemy, I said that if they use Hemalurgy, it may be a cross between Feruchemy and Allomancy. The SI seem to recruit from mistings, so maybe the process perverts both Feruchemy and Allomancy inside the individual.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on March 29, 2008, 10:38:57 PM
I don't know... Brandon seems fairly insistent that Hemalurgy is its own magic system.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 30, 2008, 01:24:59 AM
Like I said, my theory is that Allomancy attracts the mists, Skaa have some power involving the mists, and the combination of bloodlines creates Skaa Mistborn who can draw on the mists to strengthen allomancy.  The lord Ruler notices this, uses a processs called Hemalurgy to sacrifice Skaa and use their blood to pass their allomancy enhancing powers on to the inquisitors, but since hemalurgy is a perverted twisted form of the origninal skaa mist magic the mists pulls away.  He knew that only a mistborn who had this new amplified allomancy could draw on the mists and challeng him, so he created law which said skaa and noblemen were not to have children, and although he made the inquisitors powerful, he built them with a weakness- the back spike.  He also spread rumours about the mists being dangersous amoung the skaa, so they wouldn't venture out and discover their powers.

Maybe, like you say, the Skaa aren't a race at all, maybe the lord ruler just made all the people that could use the mists peasants because he feared them, just like he enslaved his own people the terrismen.

And also, this is why the Lord Ruler called the inquisitors power fabricated because it isn't the true form of allomancy enhancing, the mists are. :D

I'm beginning to like this theory more and more as time goes on
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 30, 2008, 02:49:35 AM
Ok, I was just looking over the ruin and preservation thread, and here is a quote from darxbane

Quote
Something is definitely missing here.  The most confusing thing about the alleged mist killings is how random and arbitrary the victims seem to be.  Right behind that is how it only seems to happen away from Luthadel, except at the very end of the book.  Finally, not everyone who is attacked dies.  You would think that if Ruin was using the mists to kill It wouldn't screw it up so often.  What if the deaths from the mists are not related to Ruin itself?  Maybe (and this is a WILD theory) the people who die can unknowingly draw on the power of the mists.  When they do, they can't control it and it kills them.  Crazy, huh?  Must be Monday! 

What if these random people are people with skaa blood who can channel the mists?  They are the people who can unknowingly draw on the mist.   I can't believe I missed this, you basically stated my whole theory before I thought it up.   :o
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on March 31, 2008, 03:52:09 PM
There is an annotation for Mistborn 1 that alludes to the Lord Ruler's armbands having Hemallurgic powers.  Also, I am sure he would have added the Piercings of the Hero to his body.  The Inquisitor's power being fabricated blows a big hole in the theory that they get the Allomancy bead when they become inquisitors.  Also, if you re-read Sazed's fight with Marsh, there is mention to the fact that the two metal spikes in his head look different, like they are made of different metals.  However, now it makes sense to me why they are called Steel Inquisitors.  It is not because all of the spikes are steel, it is because the most important one, the one that will kill them if removed, is steel.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on March 31, 2008, 11:59:25 PM
I think that that is probably as well, the inquisitor metals thing, but I don't think they get theiir powers from the metals, for one, they don't have enought to cover all the allomatic powers, unless, they have to be msitings to start, and then they don't need a spike for their own power.  I'll ahve to read that annotation, do you know which one it is?  Probably one near the end.  Which of the lord ruler's piercings do  you think wer the hero piercings, the armbands?  Did he have earrings, ro any other metal piercing his body, I can't remember?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: dawncawley on April 01, 2008, 09:40:56 AM
Ookla is an Alpha reader, at least I think that is what they are called, but I am not sure if that has colored his opinion. Yes, he has pre-knowledge, no, he usually will not tell us too much. I appreciate that fact really.

As for the rest of this thread, it is a lot to take in and a lot of interesting, if not necessarily something that rings with me, ideas. I might something I like yet. :) Very active in here too.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 01, 2008, 06:54:58 PM
If I know the answers, I can't really speculate. It's been a lot of fun to read these threads though.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 01, 2008, 07:08:44 PM
If I know the answers, I can't really speculate. It's been a lot of fun to read these threads though.

I'm sure it amuses you endlessly, lol.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 01, 2008, 08:29:32 PM
Not in the way I think you're implying. There's been a lot of good stuff dredged up in these threads, and people have made connections I hadn't noticed before. Brandon always has scattered clues in his books, so discussions of previous books are very interesting even though I've read the third one.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on April 01, 2008, 09:37:23 PM
I don't think the Lord Ruler would have given them Electrum, Malatium, or Alumin.  What would be the point of that?  Besides, could they even see the apparitions?  That would leave the base 8 with Atium, Duralumin, and Gold.  Gold gives Feruchemists health, maybe it increases healing abilities in Hemallurgy as well?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Hero of Ages on April 02, 2008, 06:55:38 AM
So OOkla how do you become an Alpha reader.  I so want to be one too.  Of course if you tell me then everyone will know and then you will have to kill us all.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 02, 2008, 06:41:10 PM
You have to know Brandon to be an alpha reader. Most he knows in real life, though some he met here in this forum.

But then, with Warbreaker and probably with its eventual sequel, Brandon is giving everyone a chance to be an alpha reader. I would imagine being really involved in that, and giving kinds of comments Brandon can't already get from someone else, would give someone a chance to catch his eye.

That's all on hold now though, until WoT12 is done. It's very unlikely that Brandon's normal alpha readers will even get a peek at that.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on April 04, 2008, 12:25:22 AM
Quote
Besides, could they even see the apparitions?

That's an interesting question.  Do you need eyes to see atium aparitions or are htey just in your mind, we know that other people can't see them.  We know the inquisitors can use atium, because Vin sees one burst into different shadows when she is burning atium.  It would be interesting if there was a blind mistborn- they could use atium to restore their sight, sort of, they'd be able to see things before they happened, even if they couldn't see the actual thing.

Another thing, how does tin affect inquisitors.  They obviously don't need it to see, so what does it do to their "eyesight?"
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on April 04, 2008, 05:23:16 PM
That's a good question.  Tin improves all senses, so maybe they use it just for hearing, smelling, and feeling things more acutely.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on April 04, 2008, 11:28:53 PM
Hey, I was just thinking, most people here are pretty sure that the inquisitors spike are al ldifferent metals right?  What if they don't have the same powers as allomancy.  Many are saying that they have a spike for each allomatic power, but what if each spike provides a different power than how allomancer use it.  Sure the inquisitors use allomancy, but I still think that they get it from that metal, and that they're pwoers are increased by the hemalurgy (you know my skaa-blood-mist theory), but what if the reason there are different spikes is because they each have different power.  Feruchemy and Allomancy use the same metals for different things, why can't hemalurgy?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on April 12, 2008, 01:47:13 AM
OK, so I'm continueing my argument from the mist threads here, because there is too much hemalurgy stuff there, anyway, what I rally want to talk about now is what was mentioned there (sorry for the crossreferencing) about the way skaa allomancers are executed, I definately think there's something up with that, but remember, it's not just skaa allomancers, it's anyone who uses allomancy.

Also think of it this way, it's metal piercing skin, sounds like a hemalurgical ritual doesn't it, but in reverse, those hooks kill, not give powers, I'm sure there's some significance, besides being a horrible way to die.  Thanks to whoever brought that up!

Edit:
Quote from Brandon's blog
Quote
(Note if you haven't seen the Allomancy conversations going on there, you're missing out. Also, you guys in those discussions are crazy. Fun, but crazy.)

You bet we are!

Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on April 18, 2008, 01:54:00 AM
Sorry, Chaos, you said you had a theory on this thread proving the lord ruler uses hemalurgy, I'm sorry, but I couldn't find it.  Also, do you think the way the inquisitors kill traitors in the fountain square have anything significant, or is it just a gruesome scene painted by brandon to show the cruelty.  There would be a lot of skaa blood.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on April 18, 2008, 04:36:03 PM
I think it is just to show how cold and callous TLR and most of the nobles are toward the Skaa.    I am of the same belief with the hook treatment.  It sends quite the message.  Remember that the hook get shoved down the throat and then hooked from the inside.  It wouldn't surprise me it the victim is still alive when hanged, and slowly chokes to death.  Lovely!  Does anyone remember the condition of the slaves at the Conventical?  I know the guy they found that they thought was Marsh was torn apart, and I believe he was part of Marsh's transformation.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on April 18, 2008, 11:09:40 PM
Not Just torn apart, remember, Marsh says there were actually several bodies, just everything was so ripped and meshed together, they couldn't tell, that's why Vin notices there is so much blood.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on April 19, 2008, 04:20:00 PM
I am truly sorry. I haven't read the whole thing yet but I'm always running out of time. Anyway, I just wanted to know if it was mentionned that the Lord Ruler's extreme power were due to him using the three magics ? I got this reading Brandon's annotation:

Quote
Marsh's plan to kill the Lord Ruler is a good one too. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from Hemalurgy, but from other things as well. If he'd pulled off the bracelets instead. . .

Underlined by myself, of course.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on April 19, 2008, 08:21:11 PM
It's been mentioned but it has never been proven that the lord ruler uses hemalurgy,I myself think not.  All the hemalurgists we have known so far have had the same weakness, remove the spike, you die, or at least lose you're power (or in Vin's case gain another power,) and I don't thin kthe lord ruler would give himself this weakness, he's already paranoid enough about the bracers on his arms that he makes them pierce his skin.  I don't think he would give himself another weakness.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on April 19, 2008, 11:47:15 PM
It's been mentioned but it has never been proven that the lord ruler uses hemalurgy,I myself think not.  All the hemalurgists we have known so far have had the same weakness, remove the spike, you die, or at least lose you're power (or in Vin's case gain another power,) and I don't thin kthe lord ruler would give himself this weakness, he's already paranoid enough about the bracers on his arms that he makes them pierce his skin.  I don't think he would give himself another weakness.

Hum... I would like to remind you that once Vin took care of his bracelets, he kind of lost something too. Could there be a similitude or an interaction between feruchemy and hemalurgy ?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on April 21, 2008, 01:18:25 AM
That's what I'm saying, when Vin took off his bracelets he lost his age resevior, that was his weakness, I don't think he would give himself another.  When Marsh attacks him he says somthing like, " what do you think I am, a common inquisitor."  and says that hemalurgy is a fabricated power, it seeems the lord ruler views hemalurgy as beneath him, thus I don't think he would use it himself.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 21, 2008, 04:36:23 AM
Yes Comatose, the mentioning of "endowed fabrications" and that the Inquisitor's endowed powers are a result of Hemalurgy means someone would have to use Hemalurgy to create the Inquisitors. And who is above the Inquisitors? The Lord Ruler. It follows, then, that the Lord Ruler would create such endowed fabrications through the use of Hemalurgy, which means the Lord Ruler uses Hemalurgy.

It's important to remember--at least, this is my understanding of it--that Inquisitors probably don't actually use Hemalurgy on a regular basis. The Inquisitor's powers are actually a result of Hemalurgy on them--that the Lord Ruler used to create them. So, whatever our knowledge of Hemalurgy is, it is all second-hand. It is involved in the "process" of creating the Inquisitors.

Whatever we see of the results of said process (like, knowing the Inquisitors push away the mists) does not really help us determine what the "process" is.

Of course, on the flip-side, it is possible Inquisitors can create more Inquisitors with more Hemalurgy. From a pure narrative standpoint, Brandon has to explain how Hemalurgy works. The Lord Ruler isn't alive to tell it, so therefore, someone else must have knowledge of its workings. In order for Brandon to be able to tell us, a non-Lord Ruler character knows what this Hemalurgy business is all about!

(And also, a non-Lord Ruler would have to explain that the thing Vin released is named "Ruin", since Ookla confirmed that the name Ruin is referenced a lot in the book. Needless to say, this is a very important person :P)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on April 21, 2008, 05:12:52 PM
Brandon basically gave away that the Lord Ruler uses Hemallurgy-he says so in the annotation Vintage quoted.  If Hemallurgy was the only way to enhance his primary age reservoirs enough to be able to store the large amount of age he receives when burning his other atium reservoirs, then he would have had to do it, even if it was a weakness.  I would say it was an acceptable risk, if you think about it.  A lot of things had to happen in just the right way in order for that weakness to be exploited, one of the most important being Marsh's acceptance by and subsequent betrayal of the other Inquisitors.  Now that I think of it, TLR's ability to maintain his youth indefinitely is a fabricated ability.  TLR referring to the Inquisitor's power as fabricated supports the theory that the Hemallurgy they receive is directly related to their power.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 21, 2008, 07:04:49 PM
Plus, most of all, the Lord Ruler is not someone who just learns of a power only to ignore it. He's mad with power, so he would take as much of it as possible.

I may be completely dense on this front, but what did the Lord Ruler "lose" when the bracelets came off--beyond the age thing. Namely, I want to elaborate on this point:

Quote from: Vintage
Hum... I would like to remind you that once Vin took care of his bracelets, he kind of lost something too. Could there be a similitude or an interaction between feruchemy and hemalurgy ?

What do you mean, "lost"?

Maybe I should reread that section of MB1...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on April 21, 2008, 08:34:04 PM
I think she was making the same point we are, that even if the bracelets were just Ferchumical in nature, they were still a weakness.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on April 21, 2008, 11:26:38 PM
Exactly a weakness.  The Lord ruler definately knew this and took every effort to disguise this weakenss, but itwas a necessary weakness, without feruchemy, he wouldn't be immortal and he would die.  The Lord Ruler wouldn't want to give himself another weakness, so I don't think he would resort to hemalurgy, besides, where are his spikes?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on April 22, 2008, 12:27:12 AM
It's been mentioned but it has never been proven that the lord ruler uses hemalurgy,I myself think not.  All the hemalurgists we have known so far have had the same weakness, remove the spike, you die, or at least lose you're power (or in Vin's case gain another power,) and I don't thin kthe lord ruler would give himself this weakness, he's already paranoid enough about the bracers on his arms that he makes them pierce his skin.  I don't think he would give himself another weakness.

I was refering to this part of Comatose's answer to prove exactly that he had this weakness. And yes, he was hiding it. Remember ? It was under his sleeve and he removed it only for Vin  ;D Maybe he wanted to show her how strong he was not even thinking that she could fix that slight advantage...  :D
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on April 22, 2008, 02:05:23 PM
Vin's earring proves that it doesn't have to be a spike, per se.  Besides, it wouldn't be an additional weakness.  Whether Feruchemical, Hemallurgical, or both, removing the bracelets was a weakness.  In fact, adding Hemallurgical properties to the bracelets and piercing his skin with them made them much more difficult to remove.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on April 22, 2008, 08:08:36 PM
OK, I thought you were saying there was some thing other than the bracelets, what you are saying is that the bracelets are hemalurgic, because the pierce the skin.

I don't think so, I think that the bracelets piercing his skin were just to prevent them from being stolen, and Vin's earing is still a sort of spike, jsut a small one through the ear, i don't thin kthe bracelets work that way. 

Quote
I was refering to this part of Comatose's answer to prove exactly that he had this weakness. And yes, he was hiding it. Remember ? It was under his sleeve and he removed it only for Vin  Maybe he wanted to show her how strong he was not even thinking that she could fix that slight advantage... 

Yes, I know he was hiding it and that the bracelets were a weakness, that's what i'm trying to say, he already had a weakness, and he knew it, and yes when removed those bracelets took his poer away and led to his death, but why, when he's already so powerful, would he resort to a lesser, "fabricated," power which he finds beneat him, and give himself another weakness:  One more things to remove and weaken him with.

I think the lord ruler's use of hemalurgy only includes making the first inquisitors, I don't think he used it on himself.

On the topic of the lord ruler, you know how he ampifies age by burning atium with age stored in it, well, what if he burned a feruchemical copper storage?  What would happen to the memories within?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on April 22, 2008, 08:46:29 PM
The thing is, we know that the Lord Ruler used his hemalurgy to give him strong power. But how ? If hemalurgists are known because they have metal stick in them, where was his metal ? Would the metal be there only to fool people ? Fool us ? Just to impress the sight ? I am not saying TLR was hemalurgist because of the bracelet, but simply because Brandon says he was so I am trying to find how could we know for ourselves without Brandon telling us in his annotation. Would the Lord Ruler get his hemalurgy just by immersing himself in the lake and keeping the power to himself ? Isn't then THAT power precisely the hemalurgy power ? Whatever that lake contains would then be the hemalurgy essence. If that is the case, the Lord Ruler had hemalurgy built inside him, the only natural hemalurgist.

Why, when the liquid gets into Vin ( I see that picture from Matrix lol ) does she take off her earring ? I know her earlobe hurts her, but what of the reaction itself ? If her earring had hemalurgy, and that her sister provided the blood bath needed to create hemalurgist, where did her Mom got the knowledge of this ? I did not read that TLR had a woman walking about in the midst of the obligators and Inquisitors. So where ?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 22, 2008, 08:59:07 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. (Repeat "whoa"'s to infinity).

That actually... makes a lot of sense, Vintage. Wow... I'm without words, it's so awesome. While I am instantly in love with this idea, I find there is a couple of problems:

Where is the blood sacrifice for the Hemalurgical powers?

Vin mentions she has to burn the power away in a few moments. How, then, does the metal stay in the Lord Ruler's body?

Quote
Why, when the liquid gets into Vin ( I see that picture from Matrix lol ) does she take off her earring ? I know her earlobe hurts her, but what of the reaction itself ? If her earring had hemalurgy, and that her sister provided the blood bath needed to create hemalurgist, where did her Mom got the knowledge of this ? I did not read that TLR had a woman walking about in the midst of the obligators and Inquisitors. So where ?

The mom was insane, I think from Ruin's influence. Ruin then wanted to make Vin into the hero who would go to the Well of Ascension, and thus, the insane mom "chooses" Vin over her sister. It mentions the choosing nature in WoA.

Very interesting idea about the Well and Hemalurgy. I love it.

Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on April 22, 2008, 09:09:26 PM
There is just one problem [activates Buzzkill raygun], Alendi had the "piercings of the Hero", which allowed him to feel the well's pulses before Rashek killed him, meaning that Hemallurgy existed before Rashek ascended.  I think all three powers have existed the whole time, but somehow Allomancy was lost over the centuries and rediscovered by TLR when he took the Well's power.  I mentioned in another thread that the metal seems to just need to pierce the body somehow, which his bracelets do.  She does take off her earring.  The pain is too much for her to bear.  This could mean that the power of the well is the opposite of Hemallurgy, which, if Ruin controls Hemallurgy, it would make sense that an opposing force was imprisoning it.  Unless of course, the energy absorbed by Vin was Ruin, and not using it freed it.  I am completely guessing now.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 22, 2008, 09:27:22 PM
MODIFY: New direction about Hemalurgy.

My friend--who I loaned my WoA copy to but has not yet finished--had a very interesting idea. I had told him about Hemalurgy a bit and how it is related to metal stuck in your body. He said this to me about kandra:

"The kandra have Hemalurgy."

"What?" I say.

"Well, they don't have Allomancy, and they don't have Feruchemy. They have to get their power somewhere. That third magic system you were talking about, Hemalurgy."

"You need metal for Hemalurgy. Like, giant spikes through your eyeballs."

"Well, they have to get their power somewhere!"

And, I realize now, that there IS a liquid metal in existence: the Well of Ascension. The Lord Ruler touched that power, maybe he gave it to his creations of the koloss and kandra. Maybe not koloss, but remember, the koloss have nails stuck into them. That can't really be something the koloss just do on accident. The nails give them Hemalurgical powers. Maybe the kandra have it as well.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on April 22, 2008, 09:30:51 PM
That's what I think.  It gives the Koloss and Kandra something in common, something that allows them to be controlled by an Allomancer.  With that out there, do you think it is possible that TLR's mass soothing did more than just suppress people?  He could have used it to sense for Kandra and Koloss in the city, as well.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on April 22, 2008, 09:50:42 PM
Where is the blood sacrifice for the Hemalurgical powers?

Alendi provided for it maybe ? But I don't think Rashek brought him to the Well of Ascension - by the way, we think it was called like that because of Rashek ascending to power. Kwaan makes this impossible. He already calls it the Well of Ascension on his steel plaque. Back to the question. I gave it some thought. For such power as TLR had, I presume a lot of blood would be necessary. More so than for Inquisitors. How about those first nobles ? Let's say that he "slashes" them well to let the blood flow and right after his empowering, he gives them that bead Elend received from Vin ? It could be the reason why there are a lot of broken potery and a lot of beads missing. An only hesitation comes to my mind. Rashek was despising everyone who weren't Terris. Why would he chose "knowingly" to raise a new race out of those who aren't Terris ? What could be his reason to slash them to pieces ? Could it be possible that he truly wanted to kill them all ? I imagine it this way. Rashek has killed Alendi and came back to the power well and sees it ripe (lacking words, sorry, english isn't my first language) to give its fruit. He is loathed with those Kh... whatever the name is, so he calls them to meeting. He wants to show them that Alendi has failed completely. He wants to shame them all. He knows by his uncle Kwaan that he can take the power to himself eventhough he doesn't know every details. The Ruin pushes him to kill them and he wants to do it but something stops him before he's completely done and the well calls him. Blood has filled the place everywhere. He gets in the well and takes the power. He is full of it. He can set things really right now but he realizes that being dominant is not very funny without having anything to dominate - I don't know his thinking and truly, at his point, I don't really care. But the Mist Spirit (Preservation) is there and shows him the beads, he gives them to the dying people that surround him. But not only does the LR have all that blood, but he also has his own. That liquid fills him up, gets into his pores. He keeps the power to himself, he keeps that liquid as well and becomes nearly metal himself. No need of spikes. The first Hemallurgist is born, the Mistborns are born. Simplistic, yes. But also believable (with a lot of variable, I agree).

Somehow I strongly believe that the Kandra were not created by TLR, I believe they truly were created by the Mist Spirit, and therefore, as Tensoon said, they are of preservation, as are the Mistborns. Remember how much near the end, Vin and TenSoon were coming to realize that they had a lot in common ? I believe that Mistborns are the only tools that can vanquish Ruin. Moreover, it is not impossible for me to imagine that TenSoon, after reporting to the Kandra's High Counsel or whatever he calls it, comes back to Vin with a message from his race.

If TLR has started to use the Mistborns for his own end, it might be that he truly didn't know that Preservation was fighting Ruin, at this point. Remember what Kwaan said. Something has corrupted the Terris religion. A religion is not based only on a prophecy, it has moral standards, a set of doctrines, very often complicated. It could be that the Preservation (life) principle as well as the Ruin (chaos, death) principle got just lost somewhere. If everyone therefore where all unknowing, TLR could use for the moment Mistborns against Kandra (not right away - it would have taken sometime for the Mist to produce them somehow). I still have to find proof or at least passages that could indicate such thing.

I will talk to you about my folly. See, my brain is always in a turmoil. So much so that my daughter says I'm a storm...

Quote
Vin mentions she has to burn the power away in a few moments. How, then, does the metal stay in the Lord Ruler's body?

I am not convinced that we can trust Vin on this point. First, she is full of the Well's power and it can corrupt things, metal OR mind, and I don't forget metal mind as well, of course. Second, she might think that it is the same for Allomancy, sleeping overnight with metal in you is not good for your health. It's poisonous. So, she knows it is metal in her...

Quote
The mom was insane, I think from Ruin's influence. Ruin then wanted to make Vin into the hero who would go to the Well of Ascension, and thus, the insane mom "chooses" Vin over her sister. It mentions the choosing nature in WoA.

And being insane would give her the knowledge for a complicated such as making an hemalurgist ?

Quote
Alendi had the "piercings of the Hero", which allowed him to feel the well's pulses

Really ? I don't remember... :'( Where does it mentions the "piercings" ?

I lent my copy of MB1 to a friend... going to buy another one Saturday... I just can't wait till she finishes.

Didn't we discuss the question of Kandra and metal somewhere already ? What did we say ?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 23, 2008, 07:51:00 AM
Not "insane", Vintage. "Hearing voices by a fundamental force called Ruin," yes. :P

I apologize in advance, Vintage, but I must take this conversation in a different. A new, better direction, I think.

My fellow theorizers, tonight as I was at work, stocking shelves monotonously, I suddenly had a revelation. About Hemalurgy, mostly, but it involves Allomancy, Feruchemy, Ruin and Preservation, and the mists (also, it brings up a very funny question regarding whether cows can use Allomancy/Feruchemy/Hemalurgy, but that one is a topic for another time). It's primarily Hemalurgy related, so I'll post it here. Be warned! I have a tendency to ramble, so undoubtedly, I will get off topic and go into those other "topics". I don't really want to split up this post to multiple topics, so I'm going to dump it all here.

My revelation is about Hemalurgy works. We all have evidence for Hemalurgy's existence, but we have never managed to figure out how it actually works. I am calling my particular model of Hemalurgy "Lighting-rod Hemalurgy". Confused already? This is going to be a convoluted one, so we will take baby steps. Another name for the theory could be Hemalurgy For Dummies, and believe me, we are all dummies in the realm of Hemalurgy.

Let's first discuss how Allomancy and Feruchemy work, because really, all three magic systems are related. The easiest way to start is to "define" Allomancy and Feruchemy.

Allomancy is the channeling of metal's powers to cause change. This process is called "burning", and uses up the metal. Allomancers can "flare" metals, which increases the strength of your Allomancy, but also makes it run out faster. Allomancers' power is limited, because you can only flare a metal burning so high. Now, we know that certain Allomancers, such as the Lord Ruler, are much stronger Allomancers, primarily because they have skill, but also because they must be flaring a metal higher. We will discuss the Lord Ruler a bit later, but I'm going to say that what limits an Allomancer's flare is how strong your "body" is. You'll see in a bit.

Feruchemy is the channeling of the body's power into metals for later use. A Feruchemist is limited because his power comes from the body, and not the metal.

Now, where does this leave Hemalurgy? It seems very cut and dry: one magic uses the metal's power, the other uses the body's. That doesn't leave for a third magic. However, I am of the opinion that all the magics are interrelated. The most important thing the three magics have in common is that a metal is always involved. Allomancy burns it, Feruchemy uses it as a storage device, and Hemalurgy seems to gain power by placing giant, impaling metal spikes inside of you. Always a metal.

Of course, as we will get to later, Inquisitors aren't the only "Hemalurgists", so that is a bit of an exaggeration, but all Hemalurgists have a metal inside of the body. I simply use Inquisitors because they are the most obvious example of Hemalurgy. Since I made that nice lead in, let's discuss Inquisitors. For one thing, their giant spikes are not killing them. That, by itself, tells you the spikes are important in some way (recall that there eleven spikes in an Inquisitor). Secondly, Inquisitors see by using something very similar to burning iron or steel: they see blue lines pointing to sources of metals.

Some people here have theorized they must be burning steel to do that--a logical presumption. However, I must point out that an Inquisitor's eye-spikes don't ever decrease in size, so they probably aren't burning metals. But, you could retort by saying Allomancers use tiny metal flakes which can really last for a long time, so a large metal source like a spike must be enough to last.

I have now become opposed to this line of thinking (though I once thought it sounded good). We don't really know how Inquisitors live. For all we know, they live for centuries, and that is a LOT of steel to be continuously burning, even on a low burn. It occurs to me that they would decrease over centuries or decades if they burned them, and it seems unreasonable, if the spikes got smaller, to place more metal inside of them (I mean, haven't they gone through enough with their eyeballs impaled?). So, I say a big "no" to Inquisitors burning metals. You see, after a while, the spikes would decrease in size. Eventually, that would cause the head-spikes and body-spikes to separate just because the metal is smaller, and then they die. The spikes are a matter of life and death for them. You wouldn't burn something like that, not when you can just drop dead.

So, the spikes are vitally important. The question that remains is: how? If we figure that out, we've figured out Hemalurgy.

And now I've created the perfect lead-in for my definition of Hemalurgy, at least of my Lightning-rod model (feel encouraged to disagree with my logic here. Seriously). No, I'm not saying that Inquisitors get their power from lightning. I'm saying something a little bit different. See, if you say Allomancy channels from metals, and Feruchemy channels from the body, that is not quite the most accurate statement. Feruchemy stores the body's energy, it doesn't burn it. The body's energy isn't lost, per se, just stored to be used at a more convenient time.

My thought about Hemalurgy is, essentially, the converse of Allomancy, though not in the way that one pulls the mists and the other pulls it. Let's go back to Allomantic definitions:

Allomancy burns Metal through the body.
Feruchemy stores body's energy into Metal.

Thinking that Hemalurgy is more the opposite, and Feruchemy is just the "middle ground", I guess, we can call Hemalurgy:

Hemalurgy "burns" the body's energy through Metals.

Not literally burning, mind you. I say "burning" to emphasize that the body is being used up (unlike Feruchemy, where the body's energy is stored for later use) like an Allomantic metal. Maybe the correct term would be "channeling".

Now it's time for some more in-depth exposition. By itself, you see, the body is not a magic. The body just kind of exists. It's rather lame. But, with this Hemalurgical model, the metals--like giant spikes or a certain bronze earring--acts as a "lightning-rod" to focus the body's energy. My theory is that the type of metal determines how the body's energy is focused.

Under this model, the Inquisitor's body would be continuously drained because they would be using Hemalurgy all the time. I just happened to take a look at the section of MB1 where we have Kar's viewpoint. He's our only Inquisitor viewpoint thus far, so we should take every word very seriously. And it says, on page 518 of the hardcover (for those of you with paperbacks, it is near the beginning of Chapter 38):

Quote
Kar's smiled widened, despite his fatigue.

He had been awake too long. Living as an Inquisitor drained the body, and he had to rest often. His brethren were already shuffling from the room, heading toward their rest chambers, which lay intentionally close to the throne room. They would sleep immediately; with the executions earlier in the day and the excitement of the night, they would be extremely fatigued.

I think my explanation pretty much justifies how it drained the body. If you were constantly using Hemalurgy, your body would get very tired over a short period of time, so you would need to sleep to regain your strength. Basically, sleeping is the Hemalurgical equivalent to drinking an Allomantic vial.

But, what can you really do with Hemalurgy? Like Allomancy and Feruchemy, the type of metal always determines what can happen. Hemalurgy is most likely no different. I will attempt to explain some of Hemalurgy's powers now. I am hoping I will be right, but I doubt I'm any closer than "on the right track". At worst, I'm completely wrong. The powers, in the immediate sense, are not important, because Hemalurgy is a completely different magic system, with nuances we can't possibly think of. The important part, however, is the Hemalurgy uses the metals to "burn" the body's strength. That's the fundamental point.
 
So, powers. Metals roughly have similar abilities across magic systems. Pewter makes you stronger in Allomancy, and it stores strength (I think it does, my WoA copy is not on me at the moment) in Feruchemy. Therefore, it isn't completely out of line to say that Pewter in Hemalurgy "heals" you. Brandon mentions that Inquisitors heal rapidly. The Lord Ruler, as well, must have some sort of healing ability. Pewter helps (as it did when Vin was injured in MB1), so maybe Hemalurgical pewter does something similar.

It's important to note that Hemalurgical Pewter's healing is sort of weird. Hemalurgy drains the body, okay, so pewter wouldn't exactly revitalize your fatigued body. It could, perhaps, just heal the wounds in your body--but you would still be fatigued.

Bronze is next. Bronze is the seeking metal, and we happen to have an effect that does the same thing, but differently: piercing copperclouds. Vin's earring is bronze, and she pierces copperclouds. So, I think it is a very good assumption that Hemalurgical bronze pierces copperclouds.

The last one I think we can know with any degree of certainty is steel. It allows you to see incredibly small sources of metals everywhere.

Though, maybe atium has a Hemalurgical property to it as well. Perhaps being able to see the future more acutely--which is how that Inquisitor could find Vin somehow on the spires of Kredik Shaw that one time. I don't really know.

One thing disturbs me, though. Hemalurgy always has a close link with Allomancy. These "Hemalurgical powers" aren't really very unique: they just seem to increase your Allomantic acuteness. Maybe this is because Hemalurgy just is very similar to Allomancy in a general sense, or--more likely--what we are seeing is a melding of Hemalurgy and Allomancy (these points have been mentioned before). What if you were burning metals--the normal Allomantic method--but also channeling your body's energy through your giant Inquisitor spikes. You have two sources of power, so of course, their combined force will be greater. You'll be able to enhance your Allomancy that way.

Sigh. It's late. This is not a comprehensive Hemalurgy revelation, unfortunately. It doesn't really explain the need for blood sacrifices in Inquisitors (however, by merit of blood being the body, you could Hemalurgically channel it), and it doesn't really do anything to explain how Inquisitors get Allomancy.

Most of all, it doesn't explain why the mists are pushed away. Now, I've explained to you my Allomancy-mists connection at the beginning of "The Mists" topic. I'll discuss that right now a bit. It has always struck me as a bit odd that all three magics are based in metal. Why metal? It's just... bizarre. Certainly if I swallow some pewter, I'm not going to get stronger (which would be SO COOL, by the way). Something is causing the metal to be important. I only know of one barely-understood, enigmatic, Allomacy and Hemalurgy influenced substance: the mists! I think, actually, that the Mists are what gives the metal its power.

In Allomancy, it gives you the ability to burn metals (See "The Mists" topic for more). I have new evidence to support this theory, though. Namely, it is the quintessential moment of Mistborn 1, where Vin draws on the Mists. Myself, I've always believed that this involved Vin actually burning the Mists--I believe others have thought the same. However, this gravely not so:

Quote
Vin stoked her iron, concentrating, Pushing it as hard as she could. She kept her pewter flared, struggling to keep from being crushed, and she knew somehow that she was no longer breathing. The force pushing against her was too strong. She couldn't get her chest to go up and down.

Mist spun around her, dancing because of her Allomancy. She was dying. She knew it. She could barely even feel the pain anymore. She was being crushed. Suffocated.

She drew upon the mists.

Two new lines appeared. She screamed, Pulling with a strength she had never known before. She flared her iron higher and higher, the Lord Ruler's own Push giving her the leverage she needed to Pull against his bracelets. Anger, desperation, and agony mixed within her, and the Pull became her only focus.

Remember that I said Allomancy is bounded because you can only flare so high? Well, it seems to me that drawing on the mists made Vin able to flare even higher. That shows that the mists can make you flare metals. I hope it isn't too much of a leap of faith to say that the mists itself is what causes you even able to burn metals in the first place (and the mists, then, would go into you when you are burning, thus explaining why they go towards you).

This important, because we are getting to the Ruin and Preservation part of the discussion. But first, there are two more magic systems to link to the mists. Hemalurgy pushes the mists away: why? Well, in a very Newtonian sense, Hemalurgy is just one giant push. It pushes energy from your body, focuses through the lightning-rod metal, and pushes outward. It seems to me that would push the mists away.

Now, Feruchemy is a difficult one. Very difficult. It appears to have absolutely no influence on the mists. In fact, you may say that the mists didn't "exist" before the Ascension. But as the Deepness, they did. Darxbane is of the opinion that all three magics have always existed. That could be true.

I came up with an idea about why Allomancy only appears after the Ascension. I think the Lord Ruler did something very fundamental to the mists themselves. From that point on, people could have the power to burn metals with Allomancy. Or something. I know I've quoted something before where Sazed said "All the legends agree: the first Allomancers came out with mists". Well, the Lord Ruler must have done something, because the Deepness and the Final Empire's mists are very different things. Of course, the mists are now reverting to their destructive ways.

Now, for Ruin and Preservation, or at least Ruin (because that's the one we see more)! Ruin uses the mists. The Deepness, essentially, act through the mists to kill (or make people sick). If Preservation is the mist spirit, that means that Preservation can also use the mists. This means both fundamental forces are inextricably tied to the mists for their power. Now, think about it. If the mists are the basis for all three magic systems, and if they can both influence the mists, then would not Ruin and Preservation both have an incredibly strong power over Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy?

In fact, this is what we actually see: Ruin having power over the magics. I believe that Feruchemy and the mists are tied together, perhaps the mists allow the Feruchemist to tap his metalmind. Ruin could be manipulating this relationship. It could be using the mists to change what is in the metalmind, which is how Ruin can change all the prophecies. It seems like the logical explanation to me.

With Hemalurgy, Ruin seems able to say things to people with things with metal in their body. Zane the insane voices, Marsh with whatever Ruin is doing with him, and Vin the power of the Well of Ascension.

...Speaking of that, that is sort of weird. From a pure fundamental-Hemalurgy standpoint, it almost looks like there are two Hemalurgies. The first one Pulls from the body to make external change. The second... pushes back INTO the body. Namely, Ruin saying lots of weird stuff. This little point here is definitely something to elaborate on.

I'm rambling, and I know it, but I had a good five hours to ponder at work. Of course I have lots to write. I think the last little sub-topic will talk about the Lord Ruler.

Vintage thinks the Lord Ruler has Hemalurgy through the Well's metal being inside of him. Sure, that sounds cool. Perhaps the Lord Ruler's power works like this:

He draws upon energy from his body, enhancing his Allomancy. The Well-metal has a ton of power, so that could explain why his Allomancy is so enhanced (remember the Lord Ruler doesn't burn the Well-metal. Hemalurgy doesn't eliminate the channeling-metal, just uses it). But, this leaves his body fatigued. So, he taps his pewtermind and burns that with Allomancy. He is rejuvenated with the uber power of the Feruchemy-Allomancy mix. Therefore, his Allomancy-Hemalurgy hybrid can be used indefinitely. Also, additional Hemalurgic powers can be used if he pierced himself with more metal. Feruchemists can store attributes into any metal they touch and Hemalurgy can channel through any metal that pierces the body. So, with Feruchemy-Hemalurgy, he multitasks and stores attributes, while also channeling lightning-rod style through them. Which enhances the Allomancy, and the cycle continues forever.

Also, burning the pewtermind gives him crazy-strong healing abilities. At least, enough to heal from that spear Kelsier thrust into him.

The only problem with the Lord Ruler's convoluted plan is that you would need lots of rest. Rest to heal Hemalurgy, rest to charge your Feruchemy, and heck, rest to wait for the Inquisitors to give you more Allomantic metals to burn. And this is exactly what we see. The Lord Ruler stays in his "box" of Kredik Shaw almost all the time. That way, he just waits and accumulates power. When the time is right, he can give his full might to his opponents.

...

Sigh. I hope that all made sense. I'm on a three-way system of power right now, just like the Lord Ruler: I'm on sugar from the two Dove chocolate bars I ate at work, caffeine from the Dr. Pepper I drank on my break at work, and the computer screen beaming into my brain, all keeping me awake. And, like the Lord Ruler undoubtedly does, I need time to rest.

Lol...

(If anybody wants to know how long that entire post was, it's over 3000 words long! That's over six pages, not double spaced!)

Tommorow, hopefully, if I'm still alive (Lord Ruler, I want your pewtermind!), I will summarize the Hemalurgy theory in a little more depth. I hope you liked that fundamentals lesson... Maybe we can actually extrapolate from there to discover other things about Hemalurgy.

And yes, at work, I do sit around and think about Mistborn sometimes--in case you think I'm insane.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on April 23, 2008, 04:55:13 PM
I am not going to comment on this.  ;D But I did want you to know, Chaos, that you did an awesome job, there. It does make a lot of sense... but I am also at work and I really should be working instead of making believe I do while I think on Hemalurgy... lol
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on April 23, 2008, 08:49:00 PM
Wow!  Whatever you do, don't start drinking coffee till your at least 25!  :) Many of these points have been discussed, and a lot of them make sense, although that doesn't necessarily mean it's right.  I certainly agree with how Hemallurgy functions, with the metals acting as a focus for power.  Obviously, you can't just stick metal through your skin and call that Hemallurgy.  The blood sacrifice could bind the life force of the victim to the metal.  The metal then becomes a part of the host's body when inserted.  Just guessing here, but I think, through all 3000 words, your omission of the blood part of this magic is a major flaw.  We know it's necessary, we know that the Inq's feel pain from the spikes based on emotions.  We also know that releasing blood from the body quiets Ruin's voice in Zane's head (EUOL confirmed this in an annotation, and once again made a tease about the importance of blood and Hemallurgy).  This is all I will get into for now.  Two walls of text in four posts is enough I think.

Vintage - Don't worry, I wouldn't steer you wrong.  (my Great Grandparents came here from Quebec, after all).  If you re-read nothing else, re-read the bumps at the beginning of each chapter.  Know them, love them. 
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 23, 2008, 11:58:55 PM
Yeah, sorry darxbane. We kind of hit Hemalurgy a bit hard yesterday (a "bit hard" being harder than we've ever hit it before :P) And for your information, my beverage of choice is Dr. Pepper. Caffeine is ALWAYS an integral part of the thought process!

I apologize for the lack of the blood part. I left that out intentionally. I feared that if I rambled on about possibilities with blood, then I would have been even more confusing. So, for cohesiveness, I left it out. Undoubtedly, that is something to touch on more.

Actually... I'm starting to get the formulations of an idea as we speak! I'll let that ferment for a couple hours, and maybe I'll stay up uber-late for another massive wall of text.

But:

Quote
We also know that releasing blood from the body quiets Ruin's voice in Zane's head (EUOL confirmed this in an annotation, and once again made a tease about the importance of blood and Hemallurgy).  This is all I will get into for now.

No one ever tells me anything... Seriously! This is at least the fourth time I have completely missed an important fact about Zane (others include: Him having the spike, him having Ruin saying he isn't insane, and like, Zane pushing away the mists)! I must have this uncanny ability to completely ignore anything about Zane.

Anyways, I just "rediscovered" that annotation. It's WoA Chapter 27.

Quote
Zane's cutting has an interesting evolution in the story. At first, I added him cutting himself simply because--well--it made a cool scene. Zane, cutting his own arm in front of his father, primarily to make the other man uncomfortable.

However, there's more behind this, and the cutting worked very well into the interaction of the different magic systems in the book. Particularly Hemalurgy. The pain makes the voice in Zane's head weaker. There will be more on this later.

Perhaps blood is the internal body-strength I was talking about?

We need to talk about blood more, methinks.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on April 24, 2008, 04:31:56 PM
Yes, blood and pain.  They both have relevance.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Phaz on April 25, 2008, 06:21:36 AM
Here's something I can't fully make the connection with.

There is lots of evidence that Hemalurgy is tied to Ruin (ie God with Zane and Marsh).  Hemalurgy has something to do with the metal in your body,  the presence of which also attracts Ruin to you.

However, Ruin is also seems to be repelled by metal.  "I write these words in steel."

So on one hand, Ruin seems very connected to (and gains his power from?) metal.  But in the other case, it seems to be something working against him.

Has anyone come up with any ideas to explain this?  It seems like a partial contradiction, so maybe one of the assumptions are wrong.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 25, 2008, 03:45:10 PM
Oh, that's definitely a paradox I've wondered about. I'm not quite certain how Ruin can manipulate solid things, like the rubbing Sazed made. I don't have anything that sounds good to explain that problem.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on April 25, 2008, 04:34:20 PM
Unless metal is a way for humans to tap into these powers that  Ruin, being a deity of some sort, can use naturally.  However, It does need some weakness to exploit (otherwise It would never have been imprisoned, and the end of MB3 would be alittle anticlimactic), and it appears that Ruin is unable to manipulate words carved in steel.   So, while Ruin has influence over the powers gained from using metal,  It can't actually manipulate or control the metal.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 25, 2008, 05:49:59 PM
Unless metal is a way for humans to tap into these powers that  Ruin, being a deity of some sort, can use naturally.  However, It does need some weakness to exploit (otherwise It would never have been imprisoned, and the end of MB3 would be alittle anticlimactic), and it appears that Ruin is unable to manipulate words carved in steel.   So, while Ruin has influence over the powers gained from using metal,  It can't actually manipulate or control the metal.

Those are excellent points. Ruin has to have some weakness, or else it could never have been imprisoned.

I think what you just said also means Ruin didn't create the Inquisitors. Vintage said something vaguely inferring that (I think--don't kill me if I'm wrong). Ruin--and we can presume Preservation as well--can't affect the metals itself, but it affects the effect that the metal has.

Fun: Using both 'affect' and 'effect' in the same sentence!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 25, 2008, 05:51:15 PM
As of book 2, there are two things we know Ruin can affect directly: Words written down on paper (or paperlike material) and words recorded in metalminds. That he can alter metalminds but not metal seems like a contradiction unless you think of it as a macro/micro question. Moving a few loosely-bonded atoms around on parchment is apparently much easier than reshaping metal (speaking as if book 2 is all I've read). Also, how do metalminds work? For the sake of argument, let's rule out straight "magic" and consider other options: How about quantum computers? If the memory inside metalminds is encoded in quantum bits, then changing it is simply a matter of flipping a few quantum bits, which are much tinier than the atoms involved in moving ink/charcoal around on parchment. It may be that it's even easier for him to affect metalmind memory than paper memory.

(Note: None of this is inside information, but is just the theory I developed while reading MB2 the first time.)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 25, 2008, 05:57:52 PM
So... we should take your theory for a grain of salt, right? :P Just kidding. You know I enjoy technical descriptions like that. Besides, the magic system I'm writing about in my own stories is all about how much energy it takes to do certain tasks, and thus, limits the power of the magic.

The major point is that Ruin isn't all powerful. He can't do EVERYTHING. Which, case in point, is why I don't think the Terris Prophecies are completely a fabrication on Ruin's part. It's just a tool Ruin uses, which is quite a different thing. (If you want to respond to that point, move to the HoA topic, because that has more relevance to the prophecies)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on April 25, 2008, 08:09:59 PM
OK, I didn't post the last couple days, and now look at me, I'm swamped, but I do have some things to say:
First of all, I'm pretty sure the lord ruler gets hhis healing abilities from burning gold with health stored in it.
Second, I like the hemalurgy theory!  god job
Third: I'm rereading MB! again and I gound some interesting things:
Vin can hear the well pulsing in book one, while the lord ruler is still alive, when she first pierces Kelsiers copper cloud (page 435 in the hardcover I believe).  Also, Alendi sensed  "The mind of the Deepness," which I'm guessing is Ruin.  In the log book entry on chapter 28 ( I think), He says he can feel the deepness's sentience.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 25, 2008, 08:58:29 PM
Vin can hear the well pulsing in book one, while the lord ruler is still alive, when she first pierces Kelsiers copper cloud (page 435 in the hardcover I believe).  Also, Alendi sensed  "The mind of the Deepness," which I'm guessing is Ruin.  In the log book entry on chapter 28 ( I think), He says he can feel the deepness's sentience.

I will check those references as soon as I get out of school--and finish work.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Phaz on April 25, 2008, 10:32:45 PM
Last night I started rereading the series again and noticed something fun.

Each chapter begins with one of the allomantic symbols.

However, the preface in the first one (hardback) doesn't have a symbol.

It has a spike.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on April 25, 2008, 11:20:49 PM
WE've also discussed that the symbols have something to do with hemalurgy, I think it's on the 15/16 metal thread.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 26, 2008, 06:09:40 AM
WE've also discussed that the symbols have something to do with hemalurgy, I think it's on the 15/16 metal thread.

I don't think I said "Hemalurgy" in that respect, there.

Now that I'm back with my Mistborn books, I shall reference the things Comatose touched on:

Quote from: MistbornPage435
For a moment, she thought she felt something. Something very strange--a slow pulsing, like a distant drum, unlike any Allomantic rhythm she'd felt before. But it wasn't coming from Kelsier. It was distant...far away. She focused harder, trying to pick out the direction it was coming from.

Indeed, that is totally referencing the Well of Ascension. Excellent find, Coma.

Now for the epigraph on Chapter 28:

Quote
The Deepness must be destroyed. I have seen it, and I have felt it. This name we give it is too weak a word, I think. Yes, it is deep and unfathomable, but it is also terrible. Many do not realize it is sentient, but I have sensed its mind, such that it is, the few times I have confronted it directly.

It is a thing of destruction, madness, and corruption. It would destroy this world not out of spite or animosity, but simply because that is what it does.

I believe I've paraphrased this one once in the R/P thread. Or maybe it was somewhere else, like the HoA topic. Either way, I said that Ruin is just out to destroy the world because that is what it does.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on April 26, 2008, 06:14:58 AM
Yes but this proves that Alendi can hear Ruin's voice, or at least sense his intent somewhat.  i also posted somewhere (where did that other post end up, sorry I guess I got off topic, perhaps the ruin and preservation thread?) that Alendi is also influenced by Preservation, or can here it's voice (i.e., The whispers telling him everything will be all right)  You notice that ruin's voice is demanding, and Preservation (if this theory is right) speaks in whispers.  Just some speculations.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Phaz on April 26, 2008, 06:27:33 AM
Yes but this proves that Alendi can hear Ruin's voice, or at least sense his intent somewhat.  i also posted somewhere (where did that other post end up, sorry I guess I got off topic, perhaps the ruin and preservation thread?) that Alendi is also influenced by Preservation, or can here it's voice (i.e., The whispers telling him everything will be all right)  You notice that ruin's voice is demanding, and Preservation (if this theory is right) speaks in whispers.  Just some speculations.

The influence could be due to the amount of metal you have stuck in you.

Vin has a small earing, so it seems like she hears the voice sometimes.

Zane had a larger spike, so he heard the voice all the time.

Allendi had the "Piercings of heroes" (I believe) so he probably falls somewhere in between.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on April 26, 2008, 06:30:08 AM
Yes, and the inquisitors have 11 spikes, and the seem to be under pretty much complete control.  The way it sounded though, it wasn't like Ruin was speaking to Alendi, more alendi was listening in on some sort of "broadcast," sent out by Ruin through the deepness: Destroy Destroy Destroy
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on April 27, 2008, 03:08:03 AM
I am new here, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

Hemalurgy was an interesting subject to me the second I saw the word in Brandon's annotations. I immediately started to formulate as many ideas as I could on the subject. Below is my best theory on what it is and how it works.

We know that all hemalurgists have metal in some way piercing their bodies. This metal seems to be directly related to their ability to use hemalurgy. So, I would like to start by mentioning the Inquisitors. Their hemalurgical powers are a result of their spikes, and they may very well be their only powers. I have never bought that inquisitors suddenly became full mistborn, as there doesn't seem to be too much of that metal Elend got. This quote from MB1 annotations about did it for me.

Quote
Marsh's plan to kill the Lord Ruler is a good one too. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from Hemalurgy, but from other things as well. If he'd pulled off the bracelets instead. . . .
Emphasis Mine.

This refers to Marsh's trying to kill the Lord Ruler by pulling out his lynch pin spike. The only problem is that the Lord Ruler doesn't have a spike. However, Brandon doesn't say this as, "The Lord Ruler doesn't have a spike to kill him with." No, instead, it is that "the Lord Ruler's power doesn't only from hemalurgy," and the instant implication there for me was, "As the Inquisitors' power does." This is by no means verified or supported, but that was the implication that I caught. This led me to assume that the Inquisitors die when their lynch pin spike is pulled as a direct result of their only ability being hemalurgy, which keeps them alive. More on this later.

Anyway, the Inquisitors. They are created through hemalurgy, as supported by the MB1 annotations, Chapter 38 part 2.

Quote
Making Inquisitors via Hemalurgy requires killing other people (see book three for an explanation of the process) so there's a lot of mess involved.

Emphasis mine. Anyway, we see more about the actual process of creating an Inquisitor in MB2, Chapter 12. This is where Sazed and Marsh have just entered the Convectical of Seran, and Sazed is looking around. He stumbles upon a particular room and says:

Quote
There is....something different here in this last room, at the back of the main landing. I'm not certain what to make of it. A torture chamber, perhaps? there are tables - metal tables - set into the floor. they are bloody, though there are no corpses. Blood flakes and powders at my feet - a lot of men have died in this room, I think. There don't appear to be torture implements beyond...
Spikes. like the ones in inquisitor eyes. Massive, heavy things - like the spikes one might pound into the ground with a very large mallet. Some are tipped with blood, though I don't think I'll handle those. These other ones...yes, they look indistinguishable from the ones in Marsh's eyes. Yet, some are of different metals.

Once again, emphasis mine. Anyway, I wanted to point out here that the spikes are already tipped in blood, and that some of the spikes are made of different metals, though we do not know for sure how many or which ones. So, with no further ado, on to the full body of the theory!

Hemalurgy is fueled by the body's own blood. Specifically, by the metals in one's blood. Each metal provides a hemalurgical power that is somewhat related to those produced by allomancy and feruchemy, but not exactly the same. For instance, in feruchemy, gold stores health. A hemalurgist is able to "burn" blood with high gold levels in it in order to heal quickly. Thus, the inquisitors incredible healing powers. This also explains why the inquisitors need to rest often, as well as why they never "go blind." If blood were your source of power, you would've needed to rest long before you ever became unable to see.

But how does the metal get into the blood? The spikes do it. Each spike is placed somewhere near where blood is produced, causing the blood to naturally pick up metal from the spike. The more metal in the blood, the more powerful your hemalurgy is, but also the more powerful Ruin's influence on you. This is why Inquisitors seem to be so strong in Allomancy, as well as the reason they are almost completely under Ruin's control now (or at least, that's what I assumed).  In this way, you could also control how much of each metal you got. If you placed a steel spike somewhere where more blood is produced, then you would have more "steel blood."

Now, I mentioned earlier that I thought the Inquisitor's only power was hemalurgy. Some, like Marsh, would have been mistings, but I don't think that this is a requirement. It's just a nice addition to hemalurgy. It could be that all inquisitors are Seekers, and that bronze in hemalurgy pierces copperclouds, allowing a seeker to find an allomancer. I think that it is more likely, however, that inquisitors can only pierce copperclouds at close ranges due to their relatively large amount of power from hemalurgy. Otherwise, every non-noble allomancer in the city would have been caught in a matter of days.

But I'm getting a bit off track. The idea that an Inquisitor's power is hemalurgy only, and not allomancy, came to me while I was reading. I noticed how often it was mentioned that the Inquisitors were powerful allomancers, and i thought, "what if they don't actually use allomancy? Wouldn't that be SO cool! (Not to mention a great way to mislead us fans...)" So I started thinking it through. In order for this to work, hemalurgical powers would have to be fairly similar to allomancy. For instance, Inquisitors would have to be able to push and pull metals. They would also have to either be naturally very strong, or increase their strength through magic. But some of the metals would be relatively useless. For instance, malatium would be completely useless to an inquisitor (they wouldn't need to see other's pasts). So I decided an inquisitor would need Steel, Iron, Bronze, Zinc, Brass, Gold, Atium, and pewter. They would do the following for them when present in their blood in a relatively high concentration:

Steel: Allows an Inquisitor to push on metal sources nearby. Because Inquisitors can see metal inside other's bodies, I decided they would need a relatively high steel concentration in their blood (I relate power directly to concentration of metal in the blood), and thus assigned them two spikes made of steel.

Iron: Allows them to pull on nearby sources of metal. They would have two spikes for iron as well, for the same reasons as steel.

Bronze: Allows them to sense allomancy, piercing copperclouds at close range. (NOTE: Inquisitors do not need copper if they are not using allomancy. Plus, it wouldn't matter as everyone just assumes that inquisitors can use allomancy)

Zinc: Going with either feruchemial or allomantic power, it either lets them Riot emotions or lets them speed their own minds up. Possibly both. I haven't really decided yet.

Brass: Soothes emotions. I don't think inquisitors need to be able to burn brass to keep themselves warm (brass feruchemial property)

Gold: This one I chose for its feruchemial property, storing health. I thought that if an inquisitor were to burn "gold blood," then they could heal themselves relatively quickly. This could also be how they keep themselves alive, constantly burning gold at low levels. I assigned them two spikes of gold for this reason.

Atium: I honestly don't know what it would do for them, but we know that they can produce a similar effect from when Kelsier and Vin infiltrate Kredik Shaw in book one.

Pewter: Kelsier describes the Inquisitor he fights as being inhumanly strong. Also used to describe allomancers burning pewter.

That's 8 metals, 3 with 2 spikes, or 11 spikes total. Inquisitors wouldn't need aluminum (that would kind of defeat the purpose) or duralumin. They can already burn large bursts of blood at a time.

In MB2, Zane states that when he cuts himself, God's voice is easier to ignore. This is because at that point, the amount of metal in his body drops as he loses blood with metal in it, and Ruin cannot influence him as much.

I think that that's pretty much it. I may have forgotten something, but please tear it apart. I love a good discussion. As always, evidence for or against from the books is appreciated.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I think that the blood sacrifice is what allows someone to use a piece of metal for hemalurgy in the first place. I guess that would be somewhat important to mention.... ;D

2nd edit: I just did a word count....1500. Not bad for a first post....
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 27, 2008, 05:29:03 AM
Wow. I'm amazed. That theory is spectacular. I will immediately say that this one is far more advanced than mine (which is on Page 7, if you'd like to take a look). You successfully integrated blood into the equation, and more than anything, you successfully explained why there are eleven spikes on an Inquisitor! Truly superb, and far beyond whatever my theory was doing. This is undoubtedly the best Hemalurgy theory we have on the board. You deserve a medal, man.

First, I will go through with what is good about the theory before any criticism, by analyzing your quotes and references. Which are very excellent, I may add.

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This led me to assume that the Inquisitors die when their lynch pin spike is pulled as a direct result of their only ability being hemalurgy, which keeps them alive.

Well, naturally, giant spikes tend to not be very healthy for the body. Hemalurgy would definitely need to be used to keep them alive. I've kind of waffled between whether Inquisitors are actually Mistborn or not. Sometimes I've thought their power came from the metal Elend ate, but after I made my Hemalurgy theory, I don't really like that idea. So, I agree with you that Hemalurgy is the Inquisitors' power (but not exclusive power. I'll get to Allomancy-Hemalurgy mixing later, which is probably why the Ministry liked to recruit Mistings for Inquisitors).

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Spikes. like the ones in inquisitor eyes. Massive, heavy things - like the spikes one might pound into the ground with a bery large mallet. Some are tipped with blood, though I don't think I'll handle those. These other ones...yes, they look indistinguishable from the ones in Marsh's eyes. Yet, some are of different metals.

Aha! This is the first evidence--I've seen at least--that there were other metals. It's always been assumed, but this gives credence to that conclusion. Excellent find!

I won't quote the body of your theory, I like that too much, and it would take too long to pick apart anyways.

Now to criticism mode. There isn't much to point a finger at with your theory. However, I don't think that your metal descriptions for Hemalurgy is the final thing. There's plenty of evidence that shows Inquisitors' "Allomancy" is more acute, let's say. For example, in the section of MB1 where we get Kar's viewpoint, he can see much more metal than a mere Allomancer can. It's not really a fault, though, but it's something that I'd point out.

Bronze deserves a discussion, though. I agree with your point that there would have to be a limit to the coppercloud piercing. However, it is natural that we must, in light of that point, talk about Vin and Alendi. Vin has a bronze earring, which is commonly thought around here is Hemalurgical in nature--the blood sacrifice being Vin's sister by her mother. This is how Vin can pierce copperclouds. She appears to be able to do this for considerable distances (in MB2 there is a point where she uses the ability to find Zane, and that was fairly far, I think), but that could be simply because Vin is burning bronze with Allomancy, and the Hemalurgy being an unknown side-effect.

But then there is the Well of Ascension. It is mentioned in a logbook epigraph that Alendi wears "the piercings of the Hero". So, we conclude this is also Hemalurgy (despite no evidence for a blood sacrifice). Because Vin and Alendi both have piercings and they both heard the Well's thumping, we conclude that it is a Hemalurgical ability. The most important thing to know about this is Alendi was not Allomancer and not a Feruchemist, so his powers would come from Hemalurgy only--essentially the same Hemalurgy as an Inquisitor. So, if the Well is far away, how can they sense it?

Moving on. Despite your superb explanation, I can't help but think it is... too similar to Allomancy. Brandon's annotations suggest it is a third magic system, and I just believe our theories make it seem too Allomantic. Of course, all indications are that Hemalurgy is quite similar to Allomancy, so it is probable we aren't wrong in that respect. But, there is probably something missing that we just haven't stepped on yet.

The thing your theory fails to elaborate on is why Hemalurgy pushes back the mists. Also, it does not exactly say why a blood sacrifice is needed for a Hemalurgical-powered metal in the first place. My theory doesn't explain either of those, so don't feel bad. It's something to think about, though.

However, my theory differs from yours on the point of sleeping. Kar's viewpoint does say Inquisitors sleep a lot.

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Kar's smiled widened, despite his fatigue.

He had been awake too long. Living as an Inquisitor drained the body, and he had to rest often. His brethren were already shuffling from the room, heading toward their rest chambers, which lay intentionally close to the throne room. They would sleep immediately; with the executions earlier in the day and the excitement of the night, they would be extremely fatigued.

If, as you say, Hemalurgy merely burns the metals inside of your bloodstream, that should not really fatigue you. Allomancers can burn metals all day long if they felt like it, and your definition of how Hemalurgy operates seems like Inquisitors could do the same, as long as they have enough metals burn.

In your theory, I think you could say that Inquisitors would always need to keep gold in the bloodstream simply to stay alive. Sleeping, then, would recharge the gold reserve. But I don't see why having less metal in the blood translates directly to fatigue.

My definition of Hemalurgy was that it sort of burned the body's energy, much like Allomancy burns the metal's energy. The body, then, would be fatigued because you suddenly have less energy to go upon. And since Inquisitors would be using Hemalurgy continuously, that would mean continuous fatigue, and would require much sleep to recharge.

I'll have to spend some time trying to merge the two theories together, because I think yours is better in almost all regards.

Before I end, I'd like to say that Inquisitors are probably Mistings, at least. This would allow them to use both Allomancy and Hemalurgy, increasing their power much like the Lord Ruler could by mixing Allomancy and Feruchemy. If they were Mistings, then this would give an Inquisitor a metal where they are very good with.

In Marsh's case, he could pierce copperclouds as good or better than Vin, which makes him very formidable. I'll have to check references to see if he actually does that, but my feeling is he would.

So, all in all, superb theory!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on April 27, 2008, 05:43:05 AM
That's a good theory, I like it.  And chaos, at the end of book one, it does confirm that marsh can pierce copper clouds.  I think the inquisitors all have to be seekers, it just makes sense to me, and I like the way you incorporated the abilities from both allomancy and feruchemy, that's good, but I was thinking there are probably also some other abilities that can only be gained with hemalurgy, like allomancy and feruchemy, the two give similar abilities, but not exactly the same.  The inquisitors also live for an extremely long time, maybe that's one of the reason's they need atium.  I'm still thinking about this theory, but wow, I'm really impressed, I think my own theory is kind of trash, but I still think there's something significant about the Skaa, or why would the lord ruler take interbreeding so seriously, and the excuse if he didn't wasnt them having allomancy just isn't good enough for me, The lord ruler was practical, and I don't think he would allow one of his favorite servants, tevidan, to be murdered unless it was a very big deal to him, but I also don't know how to incorporate that into this new theory which I like very much.

Good job!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on April 27, 2008, 06:02:24 AM
I'll clarify a bit to try to help you with a few of your questions. Also, thank you for your questions, you made me think about several points I hadn't before.

The main idea is that hemalurgy burns the blood, and that the higher the metal concentration in the blood, the greater the power it supplies. In doing this, however, the blood is actually used up in the same way an allomancer's metal is. The blood is gone, and the hemalurgist has to make more to make up for it. This was how I explained the Inquisitor's sleeping, figuring that they would need to regenerate their blood supply. However, after reading Kar's viewpoint from that chapter, you're right. The use of the word fatigued is what causes the problem. The blood loss would make you need rest, yes, but not necessarily make you feel fatigued. I'm not really sure what to say about that. Hmmm...

I did not by any means intend to give the impression that my metal descriptions were a final thing. They were just what I had come up with after a little bit of analysis.

As for the blood sacrifices, I thought that they were what actually give the metals their hemalurgical properties. They change the metal somehow, so it can be used for hemalurgy. Otherwise it would just be someone sticking metal in themselves. This would also explain why allomancers aren't hemalurgists naturally.

I was also recently thinking about the Lord Ruler's statement where he talks about Inquisitors being difficult to replace. I thought that maybe this had something to do with the procedure for putting the spikes in rather than who had to be sacrificed. In order for an Inquisitor to have 11 spikes in their body, placed just right to provide the correct amount of power (and without killing them in the process, i might add) would probably take a monumental amount of effort. Thus I think that the sacrifices need not have any significance, it is just the cost that gives the metal its hemalurgical properties.

As to why it does this, I honestly have no idea. A new problem to start working on, along with why it pushes back the mists.

Comatose, the only problem I have with your theory is that there seems to be no indication that the skaa and the nobility are not the same race except that nobles have allomancy and skaa do not, which is a direct result of controlled breeding. The skaa not having allomancy has always been a valid reason for me. Think about it, most of them don't even believe in mistings/mistborn. If you get enough people to start believing such a thing, they may start trying to find ways to get more skaa mistborn, build up an army, and cause huge amounts of chaos. I know that would take lots of time and isn't likely, but i'll attribute this to the fact that the Lord Ruler is careful.

Anyway, thank you both for replying! I love discussions like this!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 27, 2008, 06:10:07 AM
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As for the blood sacrifices, I thought that they were what actually have the metals their hemalurgical properties. They change the metal somehow, so it can be used for hemalurgy. Otherwise it would just be someone sticking metal in themselves. This would also explain why allomancers aren't hemalurgists naturally.

I was also recently thinking about the Lord Ruler's statement where he talks about Inquisitors being difficult to replace. I thought that maybe this had something to do with the procedure for putting the spikes in rather than who had to be sacrificed. In order for an Inquisitor to have 11 spikes in their body, placed just right to provide the correct amount of power (and without killing them in the process, i might add) would probably take a monumental amount of effort. Thus I think that the sacrifices need not have any significance, it is just the cost that gives the metal its hemalurgical properties.

I like the "changing metal" thing. The logical question is, then, why does it change the metal? It probably doesn't mean much, but it could explain another reason why Inquisitors are so hard to create.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on April 27, 2008, 02:50:49 PM
I am amazed ! Wow ! I love it ! I love it ! But of course, by "burning" blood, it would create fatigue, really. And beside, an inquisitor would not need to add more metal to its blood stream, only restaure the blood level and its ready to function again. Having less blood would not use up the metals from the spike, it would simply wait like deposits in the veins. Your level of intoxication would increase though and that would give you a second reason to need rest.

I think for the skaa theory, we have to listen to Cett's testimony - his line didn't have allomancers any more because they were too mixed with skaa blood. His daughter was the first allomancer to be born for centuries. I also think that the Lord Ruler must have allowed the purest noble lines to reside in Luthadel, and the weakest ones, he would disgrace by sending them to the country. When I think of it, it would have been a good enough reason for Straff to despise Elend. Having a son from another noble woman and he not being even a misting !

Back to hemalurgy - I was thinking that the mist, being of Preservation (maybe) and having a mind of its own, could want to avoid lending its power to those of Ruin ? The rest of that theory should be discussed into the other threads, mainly Ruin & Preservation and Mist.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on April 27, 2008, 08:55:32 PM
Chaos, it occurred to me today that the metal could possibly be changed by the sacrifice so that it would naturally replenish itself. The blood would, after a while, wear away at the spikes and cause them to need replaced, but if the spikes could somehow regenerate themselves, the need for inserting new spikes is gone. The spikes are huge, so they would probably last a good amount of time, but even so, they would wear out eventually. Why would they do this? I would guess it has something to do with the blood from the sacrifice causing the spike to gain the ability to pick up metals from the bloodstream , or possibly convert other elements into metals (this is possible, it just takes a lot of energy). I don't know beyond that, though. If anyone else has other ideas, I'm happy to hear them (then probably take it off in some crazy new direction....I do that sometimes).

Vintage, I was always under the impression that the only difference between the nobles and the skaa was that the Lord Ruler liked one and didn't like (and therefore enslaved) the other. Cett was, in this case, referring to the fact that the skaa blood was blood without the allomancy gene, which diluted his noble line. Nobles have the gene, but among the skaa, only those few skaa mistings and mistborn who have slipped through the cracks do. I think that people have kind of started seperating them as different races simply because they lived such completely opposite lives. It's like having, say, the French nobility vs the French peasants. They are still French, but they are separated into social classes. The skaa and nobles are not races, but social classes.

Except I just thought of a way that this theory might work. The skaa have not inherited allomancy because of the controlled breeding between nobles and skaa, right? Well, what if the skaa at some point in time had an ability that the Lord Ruler didn't know about, and therefore didn't exterminate? The skaa would have passed this ability down, but the nobles, due to the laws passed by the Lord Ruler, would not have inherited the trait. Thus this theory is feasible, but still not necessarily probable. We would have to come up with some sort of trait that would actually make it significant in the first place.

The mist thing, it could possibly be that the mists are of Ruin as well, and likes repel. Personally, however, I tend to believe that the mists are not conscious, they are simply a tool to be controlled by Ruin and Preservation. I think that before, as the Ruin Entity seems to have been trapped in the Well of Ascension, it makes sense that Preservation had more control over the mists. This is reflected in the fact that the mists seemed to be forced away from hemalurgists. Hemalurgy, as a power more associated with Ruin, would have repelled the Preservation-controlled mists. This is why the mists did not attack anyone before the LR died too, they would have been controlled by preservation. However, as Ruin started to gain more influence, the mists started attacking people (not randomly, though we don't know what determined who was attacked yet). If this is true, in book 3, we may see the mists actually being attracted to hemalurgists and repelled by allomancers as Ruin gains more and more power. (Allomancy is, I believe, the power that Preservation always has the most influence over. Feruchemy would be controlled more fully by whoever had more overall power at the time. This would also be reflected in what the mists did). This is, of course, all speculation, and I would encourage anyone and everyone to wipe out this entire post with amazing facts and insight that have never occurred to anyone before. Please do.

Thanks everybody for your thoughts. If anyone has anything else to add, or wants to bring up a problem, I would love it! As always, quotes from the books are appreciated to support arguments (or at least general references....)

As a side note, I read your theory on page 7, chaos. I actually really like it. It's quite similar to mine. I probably would have come up with mine considerably faster if I had read that and just went from there.....oh well.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on April 28, 2008, 02:33:00 AM
Ok, what you said about putting the spikes in places where there is blood stuck with me.  There are EIGHT spikes in the chest area, two in the head, and then one down the spine, connecting them.  All the spike have to be connected inorder for an inquisitor to live ( at least the top ones havfe to connect to the bottom ones).  I was just wondering what is the importance of all the spikes touching, we haven't really come up with anything yet.
We came up before that the word hemalrugy comes from hema meaing blood and lurgy like in metallurgy, which is the mixing of metals.  What if the sacrifices are needed, to provide blood to mix with liquid metals,   thereby making them blood metals, just athought, probably totally impossible and dumb, but that's a possible explanation for the sacrifices.
And they inquisitors probably need a spike of atium right, a solid spike of pure atium, that would be expensive, wouldn't it??
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 28, 2008, 09:00:45 AM
Coma-I think this "atium cache" we have yet to discover is vaster we could even imagine. There would be plenty of atium for an atium spike.

Andrew-Yeah, the theories are similar. That's why I kept having to compare them :P

I really like how you defined Allomancy and Hemalurgy in terms of Ruin and Preservation. I mean, it seems so OBVIOUS now. I am steadfastly certain the Lord Ruler picked up Preservation at the Well, so, if he got that and "created" Allomancy, it would naturally be based in Preservation. The Ruin-Hemalurgy link is very well explained, so that works for me.

I still don't really like that sacrifice explanation though. Just... seems weird, I guess. More stuff to work on, then.

Comatose does have something, though. The spikes are all touching. That's important... we haven't gotten onto that point yet.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Phaz on April 28, 2008, 07:29:19 PM
Rereading this thread I noticed that the posts keep getting longer and longer and longer.

The posts have been building on each other for the most part, and now we have a very complex description of hemalurgy, or at least a guess of what it is.

However, since the posts have gotten so long, I started thinking at things from another angle.  I'm a big fan of Occam's razor (the simplest solution is usually the best).  Thus, I applied that principal to this and came up with the following:

First, what do we know about hemalurgy.  We know that it is (likely) used by the Lord Ruler, and it is definitely used by Inquisitors.  The Lord Ruler I think is a special case, since he took the power from the well, etc.  Thus, I didn't use him in the theory, since using him as evidence could complicate the analysis since he has been exposed to other sources of power that could explain the phenomenon.

So, Inquisitors.  We know that they can be made from allomancers (Marsh).  We know that they have the powers of a mistborn.  We know that their abilities are usually stronger than normal Mistborn.   We know that they use allomancy.

Now, the last part there could be debated.  However, (from the "Do inquisitors burn metals) thread, I think there is good evidence that they do burn metals.  In addition, we know the powers they have are the exact same as what allomancers use.  They can push/pull metals.  They can make themselves stronger.  They can pierce a copper cloud.  They haven't done anything that allomancers can't (*except one, which I'll explain).   I don't see a reason to have two magic systems that have the same powers, just different sources of that power.  Thus, I would say (again, using Occam's razor) that inquisitors use allomancy in the exact same way Mistings and Mistborn do.

The only thing that we know they do, that isn't a product of allomancy, is healing very fast.  It just so happens, that while Allomancers can't do this, we know that Feruchemists can.

Thus, we have inquistors, who use hemalurgy, who have powers, but those powers all exists in the world of allomancy or feruchemy.

This leaves me with the following conclusion.  Instead of Hemalurgy being this complex system involving using your blood to fuel powers or something, what if it is as simple as a process that let's you 'steal' powers from an Allomancer or a Feruchemist.

In addition to being IMO the "simple" answer, I think there is plenty of evidence in support of this.

There is lots of evidence that suggests hemalurgy is a process for the most part.

We could assume that if you 'steal' a power from someone that you already have, it would make you even stronger at it.   This could explain why Vin can pierce copper clouds, just as inquisitors can, but she can't heal like them.  Maybe if you stole the power from 3 coin shots, your power to push metals would be far above what a normal coinshot would have.  Also, like with Marsh, if he had the ablity of a seeker, then stole the powers of a seeker, he would have even more seeker power.  Brandon mentions in his annotations that the ability to pierce a coper cloud and affect metals inside the body isn't something special, it's just someone being very very powerful with that particular skill.

We know that people are killed in the process of hemalurgy.  It wouldn't be too far of a stretch to think if you stole someone's power, it would involve killing them to do so.

We also know that TLR is obsessed with tracking down skaa mistings and feruchemists.  We are given adequate explanations in the series for why he wants to do this.  But, what if he also does it so that he can use them in the creation of more inquisitors.

How does this sound to everyone else?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on April 29, 2008, 12:48:37 AM
I like your post, Phaz but I also disagree with some of it.

So, Inquisitors.  We know that they can be made from allomancers (Marsh).  We know that they have the powers of a mistborn.  We know that their abilities are usually stronger than normal Mistborn.   We know that they use allomancy.

We do not actually know that they have the powers of a mistborn, at least from what I recall. If you have a passage to support this, I would appreciate it. As is, we know that they can push/pull metals and that they can use atium. It is likely that they strengthen themselves with pewter. However, I can't recall an inquisitor ever using emotional allomancy. They would have no need of tin as it would not help their "blue line" vision anyway, and hearing better wouldn't really help them. They don't need aluminum, and likely not duralumin as they are so powerful in the first place. I would say that it is possible that they have the powers of mistborn, but has by no means been proven.

The other debate is whether or not they use allomancy. I would think that some of them would be mistings and thus could use allomancy. However, we have yet to see an Inquisitor actually ingest metals. They could possibly be allomancy/hemalurgy mixture users, but there is just as much evidence to suggest this as there is that they are pure hemalurgists.

The reason the two systems are so incredibly similar is because, quite simply, I couldn't think of anything at all for hemalurgy to give them. We just haven't seen much of the inquisitors. I personally think that they are too similar as well. I think that they would naturally have similarities, as well as with feruchemy, but I couldn't think of what other powers to give the inquisitors.

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I don't see a reason to have two magic systems that have the same powers, just different sources of that power.

Neither could I, but then I noticed something...

In Allomancy, Pewter supplies the burner with added strength and speed. In Feruchemy, Pewter stores strength and steel stores speed.

In Allomancy, tin increases the users senses. Tin allows a Feruchemist to store senses.

Allomancers use atium to see the future, but it also speeds up their thought process. Feruchemists can accomplish this thought speeding with zinc.

There are several similarities between the two systems, wouldn't you say? And what's the real difference? The source of power.

Likewise....

Using hemalurgy, you can push and pull metals. This is also possible in allomancy.

Using hemalurgy, you can see the future (though possibly differently than allomancy, we don't really know). This is also possible in allomancy.

Using hemalurgy, you can rapidly heal yourself. This is also possible using Feruchemy.

I think the overlapping is fairly justified considering what we've already seen.

It is entirely possible that Inquisitors use allomancy, but until I see something that gets rid of the possibility, I personally will believe that the Inquisitors are primarily hemalurgists.

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This leaves me with the following conclusion.  Instead of Hemalurgy being this complex system involving using your blood to fuel powers or something, what if it is as simple as a process that let's you 'steal' powers from an Allomancer or a Feruchemist.

It very well could be, and I actually quite like this idea. It explains fully the necessity for a sacrifice. However, it also has its problems.

My interpretation of this is that you would kill a skaa misting with a particular allomantic power and put his/her blood on a spike. Then you stick the spike in yourself and you magically gain their power through their blood. This would also apply with a Feruchemist, allowing inquisitors to use feruchemy.

However, feruchemy doesn't have the all-or-nothing limitations of allomancy, so if Inquisitors are "stealing" Feruchemial powers, they should have all of them, not just healing. We have seen no evidence of this thus far, and you would think we would have, particularly when marsh is fighting Sazed. Also, the Inquisitors wouldn't be so fascinated with feruchemy and its capabilities.

 
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We could assume that if you 'steal' a power from someone that you already have, it would make you even stronger at it.   This could explain why Vin can pierce copper clouds, just as inquisitors can, but she can't heal like them.  Maybe if you stole the power from 3 coin shots, your power to push metals would be far above what a normal coinshot would have.  Also, like with Marsh, if he had the ablity of a seeker, then stole the powers of a seeker, he would have even more seeker power.  Brandon mentions in his annotations that the ability to pierce a coper cloud and affect metals inside the body isn't something special, it's just someone being very very powerful with that particular skill.

I originally really liked this, but the problem comes with someone who already has a particular skill. From my above mentioned interpretation, you would gain the ability to burn metals. However, if you already have that particular ability, i can't see why it would make you any stronger. The only way of doing this would be if it provided a continuous power source, which I don't see how that would work.

Overall, it's a very good idea, but I just don't see how it would work. If I am misunderstanding or you think of a way it might work, I would love to hear about it. It's good for us to discuss all options. 

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I really like how you defined Allomancy and Hemalurgy in terms of Ruin and Preservation. I mean, it seems so OBVIOUS now. I am steadfastly certain the Lord Ruler picked up Preservation at the Well, so, if he got that and "created" Allomancy, it would naturally be based in Preservation. The Ruin-Hemalurgy link is very well explained, so that works for me.

I was thinking about this today, Chaos, and I thought myself that it may have been preservation he touched. I'll go into my full theory over on ruin and preservation.

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I still don't really like that sacrifice explanation though. Just... seems weird, I guess. More stuff to work on, then.

I've always felt that this is the weakest point in my theory. I just haven't been able to come up with any other reason yet, although if the Inquisitors actually do gain allomancy, the thing about killing mistings makes the most sense. I have a hard time believing the inquisitor allomancy thing, but I have yet to find a better explanation. I'll keep thinking.

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Comatose does have something, though. The spikes are all touching. That's important... we haven't gotten onto that point yet.


My initial thought when I read that was that as the spikes sever the spinal cord, They are the only connection to the brain. If the inquisitors have to think about using hemalurgy to heal themselves, then once they lose the ability of their brain to communicate with the rest of their body (i assume the gold spike is in the chest, as the lynch pin is steel and no one remarks about inquisitors having gold sticking out of their eyes...) they are no longer able to heal themselves. Could be wrong, but this makes a lot of sense to me.

Phaz, I really like your idea, but I just don't feel there's all that much to support it. So for now, I stick with my original theory of hemalurgy. Now to work out all the bugs.....sacrifices.......mist repelling......yes

As a side note, you guys really aren't nearly brutal enough in tearing me apart. I encourage you to do so at the end of every post and I get like one thing each time. How am I supposed to fix it if you guys don't tell me what to fix? It also makes me feel kinda bad when I start picking on phaz, here....(*contemplates deeply on the matter of tearing posts apart....*)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Phaz on April 29, 2008, 01:26:32 AM
I like your post, Phaz but I also disagree with some of it.

So, Inquisitors.  We know that they can be made from allomancers (Marsh).  We know that they have the powers of a mistborn.  We know that their abilities are usually stronger than normal Mistborn.   We know that they use allomancy.

We do not actually know that they have the powers of a mistborn, at least from what I recall. If you have a passage to support this, I would appreciate it. As is, we know that they can push/pull metals and that they can use atium. It is likely that they strengthen themselves with pewter. However, I can't recall an inquisitor ever using emotional allomancy. They would have no need of tin as it would not help their "blue line" vision anyway, and hearing better wouldn't really help them. They don't need aluminum, and likely not duralumin as they are so powerful in the first place. I would say that it is possible that they have the powers of mistborn, but has by no means been proven.


I don't have a ton of time, but wanted to address this quick point.

First, it's true, we haven't seen them use all the powers of a Mistborn, but IMO they have been shown (or we've heard) about them using many.  I'd say we know they can use steel, iron, atium, pewter, bronze, and possibly copper.

They don't need to have all the powers of a Mistborn, especially if we are assuming that hemalurgy simply 'steals' the power of a misting.  Why take something you aren't going to need?  They won't need Tin to see, but could perhaps use it to hear.  The emotional ones probably aren't necessary though, nor is alumninum, so why bother?

As for the rest.  I would say that what we see inquisitors do is the same as what we see allomancers do.  My best evidence for this are two key fights.

When Kell fights the inquisitor, the fight seems very balanced.  They are both strong in the same way, they both use metal in the same way, they both move in the same way.   I can't point out a lot of specific details, but it has the 'feel' of them being very much the same.

However, when Sazed fights Marsh, the fight does not feel that way.  Sazed can move much faster than Marsh (for short periods).  When Sazed changes physically, he changes physically.  He gets inhumanly large or or thin or muscular.

To me, reading about inquisitors, it just seemed like they were using the same powers.  They do things in the same way.

Also, we know metal is involved, so maybe the different types of metals are what effects what abilities you can steal.  Such as maybe a gold spike will steal the healing ability from a feruchemist, and a different kind of spike would steal a different ability.

Finally, feel free to be as critical of my posts as you can :)  I believe it was Einstein who was famous for pointing out that no number of people agreeing with you can ever make you right.  However, it only takes one person to prove you wrong.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on April 29, 2008, 04:27:46 AM
The only thing that really bothers me about the inquisitors using allomancy is that we never actually have proof that they do. During the battle between kell and the inquisitor, is Vin burning bronze? That would be a good indication. To me, though, the general lack of actual proof that they were allomancers and the fact that it is stated so often that they are was kind of a red flag. I don't actually have any proof. In the long run, I don't think it matters much for hemalurgy except in the actual abilities that hemalurgy would provide.

As to your theory.... I don't know, something about it just doesn't feel quite right to me. I can't quite place it, but I'll think on it and let you know. It seems to be possible, but Brandon has emphasized that hemalurgy is its own system often enough that it seems to me that it would be something original rather than stealing other powers.

My real problem is we just don't see hemalurgy in action all that much....I'm really really excited for book 3. It should be interesting coming around here after its out and having an I told you so party.

I would like to focus more on possible other abilities hemalurgy could give if you guys don't mind. I think understanding what it allows is what will allow us to understand the system. It could be the process of stealing allomancy and feruchemy, but I just don't feel right on that one. So anyone got alternative powers bestowed through the use of feruchemy?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 29, 2008, 02:18:20 PM
If this whole "magic-stealing" thing worked, it would be through a blood sacrifice to, um, "Hemalurgify" the metal. Inquisitors are already pretty much decked out in plenty of metal, so I highly doubt Marsh would be able to steal Feruchemy from the Keepers he has slain. If there was stealing, and if that is how it works, then Marsh would need to get a NEW spike in order for any Feruchemist-sacrifice to work.

Likewise, for Vin to steal a power, there would need to be a blood sacrifice Hemalurgifying a piece of metal--namely her bronze earring, and I think her earring's sacrifice was her sister, not anything else.

So, I think that power-stealing is not quite a plausible theory. Possibly true, but it seems implausible.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on April 29, 2008, 02:32:49 PM
There are two major battle scenes in book one that specifically show the Inquisitors using the abilities that Mistborn use.  They counteract Vin's Atium when she goes with Kelsier to Kredik Shaw.  They shoot little metal spikes at her, which she blocks with Alendi's logbook.  Kelsier's fight in the Square has more examples.  Finally, Kar's viewpoint in book 1 let's us in on how they "see".  Thousands and thousands of blue lines, like what an allomancer sees while burning iron and/or steel.  The Lord Ruler also comments on their "fabricated" abilities.  What about this; going along with several other theories (inlcuding my own), what if the blood sacrifice transfers the victim's abilities into the metal?  I am not just talking about Allomantic power, although TLR's comment on how hard they are to make leads me to believe that Mistings are required, I mean health, age, strength, everything.  This could explain the extra long life, quick healing, and others, especially when you combine Allomantic powers.  I really like the metal to power ratio theory.  It makes sense that how much of a metal allows increased power.  I am not sure the metal in the blood is a factor, though.  I think it is more that the user can channel energy through the metals to tap the powers within.  This makes it different from Allomancy and Feruchemy.  One stores power of the body to be reused, one uses the metal's power directly, consuming the metal, and the last one uses the body's energy, which is replenished through food and rest.  I know it doesn't say that the Inq's eat, but I am sure they do.

p.s - for whomever said that Allomancers can burn metal all day long with no consequence, please look up Pewter dragging.  
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Phaz on April 29, 2008, 06:50:51 PM
If this whole "magic-stealing" thing worked, it would be through a blood sacrifice to, um, "Hemalurgify" the metal. Inquisitors are already pretty much decked out in plenty of metal, so I highly doubt Marsh would be able to steal Feruchemy from the Keepers he has slain. If there was stealing, and if that is how it works, then Marsh would need to get a NEW spike in order for any Feruchemist-sacrifice to work.

Likewise, for Vin to steal a power, there would need to be a blood sacrifice Hemalurgifying a piece of metal--namely her bronze earring, and I think her earring's sacrifice was her sister, not anything else.

So, I think that power-stealing is not quite a plausible theory. Possibly true, but it seems implausible.

I don't quite get your point.  What would be so hard about him getting a new spike?  It seems like there were plenty of extra at the Convetical.

Also, from the Vin example, it shows that it doesn't necessarily need to be a 'spike,'  just a piece of metal.  I'm sure the kind of metal matters however.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.  If it requires a blood sacrifice to make the metal part of hemalurgy, and her sister was the sacrifice, then the conditions seem to be met.  This would explain why Ruin can talk to her (as Reen) and why she can pierce copper clouds.

For a really wacky idea, what if Vin's sister was an Allomancer (seeker maybe, if we go with the power-stealing idea)?  We know her blood line is really strong, so maybe there is a higher chance with her family.  Is there any proof that Reen was as well?  That could explain how the inquisitors finally caught up with him.  Maybe when they 'killed' Reen they used him to make a new inquisitor (like Marsh).
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Phaz on April 29, 2008, 07:01:17 PM
Thanks for pointing out those things Darxbane, I think it really contributes to the "Inquisitors use Allomancy" idea.

For the comment about us not really seeing much of inquisitors, I would agree, but also disagree.  True, there aren't that many words written where we see them directly, but we do get a lot of indirect knowledge.

In addition, almost every time we do get a good view of them, they are fighting.  This goes back to the "what other powers could they have?" theory.  When we see them, they are in battle.  They have a very very important goal in their minds (capturing Vin, or in MB2, stopping Vin, or fighting for their lives).  IMO, if they had other powers, they would use them in this scenario. 

Wouldn't that be the one time that we would seem them use other powers (if they had any)?  When they were fighting?  That makes the most sense to me.  Why would they hold back?  They have goals they want to accomplish, they are fighting for their lives, they wouldn't hold back.  They would use every advantage at their disposal.  Thus, I think this also enforces the idea that they use allomancy, and hemalurgy is the process by which they acquire it.

Finally, the other things we have seen about hemalurgy are mostly related to the process of creating inquisitors.

If you think back, there are several references to how inquisitors are made.  IMO, that is Brandon's way of leading us to accept the idea that hemalurgy is the process that does that.  It's not what they use for thier powers.  It's how they get their powers.  He wouldn't spend the time referencing the various glimpses into how they are made unless it was an important part.

Also, I think we have to look back to the quote from the Lord Ruler about making them.  I don't have the exact words, but I believe it was something along the lines of "Those (inquisitors) are very difficult to replace."  He mentions that they are very hard to make.  If hemalurgy was simply putting spikes in someone, then inquisitors wouldn't be difficult to replace.  Even if some of the spikes were made of pure atium, it still doesn't seem like that would be something that TLR would find "difficult."

However, finding skaa mistings of a particular type, and a keeper that can be sacrificed all to make one inquisitor... THAT seems like something that the Lord Ruler would consider "difficult."

Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on April 30, 2008, 12:29:37 AM
Quote
For a really wacky idea, what if Vin's sister was an Allomancer (seeker maybe, if we go with the power-stealing idea)?  We know her blood line is really strong, so maybe there is a higher chance with her family.  Is there any proof that Reen was as well?  That could explain how the inquisitors finally caught up with him.  Maybe when they 'killed' Reen they used him to make a new inquisitor (like Marsh).

This is what I was originally trying to get at. For the power stealing to work, the sacrifice would have to have allomantic abilities (and 1 would have feruchemy). Thus, vin's sister would have to be a seeker, which is not likely (unless it's through the same mom...I don't know). Reen likely would not be an allomancer as he was only her half-brother.

Darxbane, for the reasons you mentioned, I was thinking that any additional powers an inquisitor had would have to be useless in battle. Like, you don't sooth someones emotions in battle. So abilities of this general nature would be what we were looking for. Not necessarily useful in battle, but elsewhere maybe.

Chaos, from now on I will be attempting to use the word Hemalurgify in all my posts on this thread. That's got to be the coolest word ever.

I honestly don't know what the big deal is about the difficult to replace quote. If your going to stick eleven spikes in someone placed just correctly to give them special abilities and not kill them in the process (even though all logic says they should be dead), I would classify that as being difficult. No need to complicate this any more than that, according to Phaz's razor thingy (which I'm to lazy to find and actually use...).

The Inquisitor allomancer theory has its positive and negative points, as does mine, but I'll be honest, I just don't like it. I don't know why, it just seems too easy to me. Which is kind of funny considering that in the previous paragraph I mentioned keeping things simple.

I've always envisioned hemalurgy as a third full system with unique abilities. If it is just a process to gain allomancy, I'll feel somewhat cheated.

Thanks for posting though, I really like some of the ideas going around.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on April 30, 2008, 03:45:17 PM
If this whole "magic-stealing" thing worked, it would be through a blood sacrifice to, um, "Hemalurgify" the metal. Inquisitors are already pretty much decked out in plenty of metal, so I highly doubt Marsh would be able to steal Feruchemy from the Keepers he has slain. If there was stealing, and if that is how it works, then Marsh would need to get a NEW spike in order for any Feruchemist-sacrifice to work.

Likewise, for Vin to steal a power, there would need to be a blood sacrifice Hemalurgifying a piece of metal--namely her bronze earring, and I think her earring's sacrifice was her sister, not anything else.

So, I think that power-stealing is not quite a plausible theory. Possibly true, but it seems implausible.

I don't quite get your point.  What would be so hard about him getting a new spike?  It seems like there were plenty of extra at the Convetical.

Also, from the Vin example, it shows that it doesn't necessarily need to be a 'spike,'  just a piece of metal.  I'm sure the kind of metal matters however.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.  If it requires a blood sacrifice to make the metal part of hemalurgy, and her sister was the sacrifice, then the conditions seem to be met.  This would explain why Ruin can talk to her (as Reen) and why she can pierce copper clouds.

The difficulty, as Andrew touched on, is putting a gigantic spike severing your body, potential organs, and other rather important bodily muscles and make the person still live. I don't think with the eleven spikes you could really have any room to add a twelfth to "power-steal" some Feruchemy.

Quote from: Andrew the Great
Chaos, from now on I will be attempting to use the word Hemalurgify in all my posts on this thread. That's got to be the coolest word ever.

I honestly don't know what the big deal is about the difficult to replace quote. If your going to stick eleven spikes in someone placed just correctly to give them special abilities and not kill them in the process (even though all logic says they should be dead), I would classify that as being difficult. No need to complicate this any more than that, according to Phaz's razor thingy (which I'm to lazy to find and actually use...).

The Inquisitor allomancer theory has its positive and negative points, as does mine, but I'll be honest, I just don't like it. I don't know why, it just seems too easy to me. Which is kind of funny considering that in the previous paragraph I mentioned keeping things simple.

I've always envisioned hemalurgy as a third full system with unique abilities. If it is just a process to gain allomancy, I'll feel somewhat cheated.

Thanks for posting though, I really like some of the ideas going around.

Hemalurgify is a cool word, right up there with Hemalurgical powers and the Hemalurgification process to create Inquisitors.

I also have envisioned Hemalurgy as a different magic system, which is somewhat why I am really hesitant to say that your Hemalurgy theory just gives Allomancy to inquisitors. It makes sense, but Hemalurgy should be something different, not just a method to gain Allomancy or stronger Allomancy. I've never really liked the fact that Hemalurgy just seems like a way to boost Allomancy.

I'm sorry if my thoughts aren't complete... I'm sick, and I just got braces on Monday, so I'm simultaneously congested and in a lot of pain. It sucks...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on April 30, 2008, 04:28:46 PM
Actually, soothing or rioting  your enemy in battle could be a great advantage.  However, I don't think that they soothe, riot, or even seek.  There are obligator mistings that can do that.  Also, on that vein, I have read several posts that suggest Inquisitors could pierce copper clouds.  I don't believe this is true.  After all, if they could, the hideout at Clubs's shop would have been found much earlier on in the story.  From what I remember, only TLR and Vin are able to pierce copper clouds.  Also, please stop the fantasy that Reen's voice is Ruin talking to her.  If that were true, Reen wouldn't have been encouraging her to leave Kelsier's group.  Ruin wanted her to become a Hero, someone who thought of others first, someone who would be willing to give the power away to save the world, according to Its false prophecies.  Reen's "voice" was saying the exact opposite.   Vin's sister had to be the sacrifice, although I am not sure if it was necessary for her to be a seeker.  Don't forget that Vin's mother heard voices, so she was a Hemalurgy recipient of some sort.  I wonder how many Skaa have some sort of piercing or spike like that? 
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Phaz on April 30, 2008, 05:06:25 PM
Actually, soothing or rioting  your enemy in battle could be a great advantage.  However, I don't think that they soothe, riot, or even seek.  There are obligator mistings that can do that.  Also, on that vein, I have read several posts that suggest Inquisitors could pierce copper clouds.  I don't believe this is true.  After all, if they could, the hideout at Clubs's shop would have been found much earlier on in the story.  From what I remember, only TLR and Vin are able to pierce copper clouds.  Also, please stop the fantasy that Reen's voice is Ruin talking to her.  If that were true, Reen wouldn't have been encouraging her to leave Kelsier's group.  Ruin wanted her to become a Hero, someone who thought of others first, someone who would be willing to give the power away to save the world, according to Its false prophecies.  Reen's "voice" was saying the exact opposite.   Vin's sister had to be the sacrifice, although I am not sure if it was necessary for her to be a seeker.  Don't forget that Vin's mother heard voices, so she was a Hemalurgy recipient of some sort.  I wonder how many Skaa have some sort of piercing or spike like that? 

The voice thing makes sense.  If Vin's mom was under the influence of Ruin, and it was Ruin that led her to kill Vin's sister and put the earing in Vin's ear, then it would make sense that Reens voice is also Ruin.  Maybe we just don't know Ruin's true motive.  Think of Breeze and how he's always saying you have to use a 'subtle touch.'  Maybe by talking to her as Reen and just bugging her he is setting himself up to make some more meaningful suggestions later on that she thinks are coming from inside her head, not outside it.

Vin's mom probably was also under the influence of Ruin.  However, I don't think simply having a spike or some metal piercing you puts you under his influence.  It has to be a hemalurgic spike (presumably) made from a sacrifice.

Also, inquisitors can pierce copper clouds.  Marsh confirms this to Vin.  It is mentioned.

I think the reason that Club's shop wasn't found was simply because inquisitors never passed it.  Luthadel was a big place and I'm sure Inquisitors didn't just stroll around.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on April 30, 2008, 06:47:16 PM
I read you all and noticed that you are forgetting a little something. Brandon's annotation specify that TLR has touched only one of the two : Preservation OR Ruin. Now, if allomancy is from preservation, and that Hemalurgy is from Ruin (and we KNOW that TLR is hemalurgist from Brandon's annotation) than TLR did not create the mistborn and did not touch Preservation. I have no theory, but I would like you to take this into consideration. I am re-reading and taking notes to help us all.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on April 30, 2008, 08:11:54 PM
The only thing that we know they do, that isn't a product of allomancy, is healing very fast.

Phaz, I really like your desire to trim down and simplify.  Uncomplicated theories are the most likely to be true.  Thus, until I see a theory more persuasive than those thus far, I will continue to believe that Inquisitors are Allomancers, although they clearly also have other powers (probably from Hemalurgy).

I did, however, think of something else they can do that an Allomancer can't: track down an individual Allomancer.  Near the beginning of MB1, Kelsier tells Vin something about that one Inquisitor having her scent.  Now this could be simply amplified Seeker abilities, where an Inquisitor can sense differences in Allomantic pulses caused by the individual Allomancer.  Or it could be amplified Ironlines, where the Inquisitor can identify people by the patterns of their bones and organs, which they can see through the trace metals in people's bodies.  But it could be a whole different ability, which neither regular Allomancers nor regular Feruchemists share.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on April 30, 2008, 08:32:59 PM
That's a good point, Sarah.  Although they could also simply be tracking her by interrogating people that know her.  They started with Reen, then moved on to her old thieving crew.  It looked like they were chasing her the old fashioned way.  If they really knew her by allomantic pulses, they would have caught her during one of her training sessions.  The Inq that Kelsier distracted would have also recognized her right away, and wouldn't have let Kelsier distract him.  As for healing, Pewter does heal the body.  Inquisitors might be able to use an enormous amount of pewter power to heal very quickly.  The large spikes in their bodies could be directly proportional to the amount of power they can produce, along with the type of sacrifice done to "activate" the spike.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on May 01, 2008, 12:27:30 AM
I read you all and noticed that you are forgetting a little something. Brandon's annotation specify that TLR has touched only one of the two : Preservation OR Ruin. Now, if allomancy is from preservation, and that Hemalurgy is from Ruin (and we KNOW that TLR is hemalurgist from Brandon's annotation) than TLR did not create the mistborn and did not touch Preservation. I have no theory, but I would like you to take this into consideration. I am re-reading and taking notes to help us all.

Annotations are really the ultimate authority.

However, I do think the Lord Ruler touched Preservation. Primarily because it stops Ruin, and because he used the power to "stop the Deepness", or at least keep it at bay. I do not think that if the power that was touched was Ruin--as a sentient entity--would allow the Lord Ruler to use its power to halt the Deepness. It is a loose argument, sure, but an argument just the same.

Furthermore, I have a feeling that whatever he did to the Deepness/mists also, somehow, made it possible to burn metals with Allomancy. "Changing the mists", I call it. If we go with the previous argument, that means the Lord Ruler essentially used Preservation to "create" Allomancy (not exactly create, but allow Allomancy to occur, I guess), which links Allomancy with Preservation.

However, if Hemalurgy is indeed the way Ruin communicates with people (at least in the hearing-voices method), that means Hemalurgy is already linked with Ruin. Just because the Lord Ruler uses Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy does not mean the powers inherently contradict each other. All it takes to use Hemalurgy is a large metal in your body and a blood sacrifice to activate the metal. The Lord Ruler could have just done that, and not touch the force of Ruin at the Well.

Personally, I believe there is more evidence supporting Preservation at the Well than Ruin.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on May 01, 2008, 11:40:20 AM
Unless we do not talk about the 3 magic systems as being of Ruin or Preservation. Could not they be neutral and used by the 2 powers ? Because if the magics belong to either one or the other, it does make interaction a bit complicated. How could the Lord Ruler be of Ruin and Preservation if he touched only Ruin OR Preservation ? How could the Lord Ruler initiates, lets say, allomancers and create Inquisitors ?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on May 01, 2008, 02:03:36 PM
I am of this same thought.  Ruin and Preservation are able to touch the powers of metals, but they don't control them. 
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on May 01, 2008, 03:48:16 PM
Correction: Allomancy is just more related to Preservation than Ruin. The forces don't own the magic systems, yeah.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on May 02, 2008, 04:38:44 AM
Agreed. Thanks for pointing that out. I also think we need to keep it a little simpler than we have been (largely my fault, actually). We need to work out the basics before we can get something concrete. I may not post too often in the next little while, I'm getting into finals and my teachers seem to have decided that none of us have social lives...But after that I'll be back on frequently!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: AvalonDreamer on May 04, 2008, 05:42:09 PM
I'm not sure if it's been brought up yet (and if it has, I'm bringing it back up! haha!), but what if hemalurgy is a totally passive version of the other two power systems? What I'm attempting to say is, what if each piercing grants you an effect like what a metalmind could allow you to store, or burning could allow you to amplify, but just as a constant ability, with some sort of constant penalty. We know that Inqis can always see metals as though they were burning steel/iron, and it's a fairly good assumption that they are always at least emulating the effects of pewter (as exhibited by their uber resilience and strength).

Short version: Hemalurgical piercings grant passive versions of allomantical powers.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on May 09, 2008, 02:49:23 AM
You guys are forgetting: Alendi was probably a hemalurgist (hero piercings) and he could NOT push and pull metals, or see the future.  I also don't think he was powerful because of increased allomatic-like strength, because Kelsier says he never mentions anything even relating to allomancy in the logbook.  The only thing even remotely allomantic he does is hear to pulsing of the well, which Vin only does with the help of her hemalurgic earring.  If allomancy and feruchemy were THAT similar, then They would have noticed similarites, from the log book, it doesn't seem like Alendi had any special powers, except for being able to hear the well, but Kwaan still thought that Rashek, a capable feruchemist, a match for  or even more powerful than a steel inquisitor( if Sazed had morea attributes, he would have won, he was stronger than marsh, and Rashek was probably stronger than Sazed), would need a miracle to defeat Alendi.  I think we should establish that Alendi is the only cahracter so afar who uses only feruchmy (with the exception of Vin's mother possibly) and all the others use a combination of powers.

In my reread I also realized that Vin's mother used one of her OWN earings to give to Vin, which means she had the same hemalurgic powers Vin has, only twice as many because she has to, which is why she could hear ruin.

ANd I'm pretty sure I already brought up the misting per spike theory with the inquisitors, but we decided it didn't work, because you'd need so many mistings, plus a mistborn all extremely rare and noble, to create one inquisitor, also, I'm pretty sure hemalurgy and allomancy are more separate than that, I don't think you need allomancers to use hemalurgy.

And what about the keepers keepers, the inquisitors dragged off all the bodies (dead and alive) what are they planning to do with them??
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on May 12, 2008, 02:37:57 AM
Yes, good question... and I have something else to pound about :

Quote
She turned to the side, numbly realizing where she knelt. The pool glowed beside her, just inches from where Elend had fallen. Some of his blood had dribbled into the pool, though it didn't mix with the liquid metal.

To be found on p.569...

Tell me this is not interesting. And don't forget about all those broken potery pieces. Elend has a whole one in his hand right now. What I see, here, might have happen with Rashek as well. Remember what the Steel Ministry taught those nobles ? That they had the gifts of Mistborn because they helped TLR at the beginning ? And why do I post this here ? Blood into the liquid metal, that's why. Let's picture this.

We are in Rashek's days. He doesn't trust any feruchemist anymore, worldbringer or not. He can hardly trust the Terris people either because they are responsible of the spreading of the "modified" Terris religion. One of the things that happen when a religion spreads, it that it makes converts. And somehow, Rashek surrounded himself with those. They were looking for a savior and here he is. He knows everything there is to know about the Hero of Ages, so he makes certain he fits the picture and those poor people (he despised them mind you) follow him blind folded. They all come to the Well but then The Mist Spirit does not want Rashek to fight against the Well's power, because he is not THE Hero. So he does what he did with Vin and Elend. He slashes open the bellies of all those followers... and their blood drips into the Well. Rashek is torn. He has to have followers, but the Well is there with its powers. If he takes it, can he not "redo" everything. So like Vin, he hesitates only a moment before entering the pool. As the liquid metal and all the blood drips of the people gets in him, he discovers the real power. Thanks to his blood bath, and to the metal he has ingested, he becomes the first Hemalurgist, maybe the only one if it is through hemalurgy that he creates the Inquisitors and the Koloss (maybe the Kandra, as long as we do not find metal in them under a form or another, I question this). He will keep the power and recreate everything. When he gets out of the Well, he sees the Mist Spirit and understand, somehow, that the use of those beads will help his dying followers. So, in a hurry, he brakes as many potery he can find and gives the beads to the people. They all become Mistborn. The power is pure. The Lord Ruler does not create Mistborn, but let's say that he acts as a wise woman. Then he may create whatever he wants or he did already.

When the Mistborns heals he makes them believe they owe their lives to him, and that he has blessed them in a way only a god can do. They believe him. He might not have told them not to mix with other people then, other people meaning those that are not Mistborn. He might have learn overtime that this dilutes the power and afterwards, he forbeeds them to reproduce with "lower borned" people.

Plausible ?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vambram on May 12, 2008, 03:49:35 AM
Yes, indeed, Vintage. That theory sounds extremely plausible to me.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on May 12, 2008, 11:10:25 PM
Hum. Here's something I noticed on my most recent read through. When Vin is in the Well of Ascension, her earring starts causing pain.

Page 570, Well of Ascension
Quote
With a sudden flare, her earlobe began to hurt. She cried out, pulling her earring free, dropping it into the depths. She pulled off her sash, letting it--and her Allomantic vials--go as well, removing the only metals on her person.

Note that she does still hear the voice of Ruin without her earring, though that could be because of the circumstances. However, I find it very odd that the Well of Ascension reacted so strongly to Hemalurgy.  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on May 13, 2008, 03:13:18 PM
I at least am of the belief that the power in the well is not of Ruin, so it would react strongly to anything that Ruin could manipulate.   The power is most likely of Preservation, or some neutral power.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: AvalonDreamer on May 13, 2008, 06:34:04 PM
So not Ruin or Preservation...? What about Creation? Like a giant debug mode for the world; Preservation wouldn't want it pulled out, because it would be able to radically change everything, and Ruin would love it if someone who it was controlling got at it.

On a hemalurgy-related thing: does anyone recall if an Inqi's eye spikes are both the same, or different?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on May 14, 2008, 01:21:19 AM
I think they are different.
The creation theory has been hashed around before, I like it , but inthe annotations, brandon says that there are two major powers or something like that: Ruin and Preservation.
The blood in water theory is interesting, but it has a few holes, first of all, the Lord Ruler was going to take the power no matter what, so why would the mist spirit bother trying to convince him to TAKE the power when he was going to anyway.  The mist spirit does this to elend because Vin is goin to set the power free, and it does this in a last ditch attempt to make Vin keep the power and not set ruin free.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on May 14, 2008, 01:46:05 AM
How do we know he was there to take the power to himself ? How do we know he chose to do this ? There is absolutely nothing that tells us he did this of his own free will. Killing Alendi is one thing, believing yourself to be the savior, is something else. What convinced him to take that role ? We know nothing of his motivation (and that bugs me).

Nevertheless, the way it happened is not that important. For all we know, Kwaan could have been with him and he might have been the one giving the beads while the whole cavern was shaking to pieces. What we know, or can fairly guess, is that the future nobles were there, in that place while the future Lord Ruler was playing with his favorite metal lake. What we know is that these future nobles ingested those beads, and another thing we do know is that in order to snap, you have to nearly die, so they must have been, all of them, seriously in danger.

If stopping Vin was the only motivation the Mist had to nearly kill Elend, then why did it give her the means to heal him ? If a child disobey its parents, it has to suffer the consequences. Did Vin deserve to have Elend back ? I mean, if you were the Mist Spirit and you did not want her to liberate the power, after she did so, would you reward her ?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on May 15, 2008, 04:46:18 AM
After finding a couple of quotes regarding the Iron eyes of Inquisitors, I just rediscovered that the spike between the shoulder is steel... just like Steel Ministry... the Steel Inquisitors kept their lives as long as they had their Steel Spike. If I rediscover some more, I'll add. But could this help ?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: AvalonDreamer on May 15, 2008, 05:31:21 AM
Yeah, but it leaves me with a hole in my theory. I'm fairly certain that it best describes how hemalurgy works, and it keeps it's distance from Allomancy and Feruchemy as they do from each other, but I have holes! Assuming spikes grant passive abilities, and Iron allowed you to see metal's lines, what would steel do?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on May 15, 2008, 02:13:53 PM
What we really need to do is an intelligent reread and check specific points, take notes and references. Once that is done, we can revise everybody's theory and come out with a much better collective one. I am working on this already. I confirm, the Iron eyes enables Inquisitors to see the metal line, however thin, from all around. That's in MB1... But we really do need clear quotes from the book and also the annotations since things "change" (i.e. the steel earring in MB1 became the bronze earring in MB2) and that we have to figure out the proper figures. Brandon will have to revise his books later on, though, just like Tolkien had to revise the Lord of the Ring a couple of years after it came out. He is walking in the steps of his great predecessor.  :D
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on May 16, 2008, 03:41:41 AM
I'm about halfway through MB1 and already have 4 pages of notes. That's actually the reason I've been frequenting less here.

The iron eyes may or may not have anything to do with inquisitors seeing the lines, I lean toward not. Mainly because of the quote from Brandon''s annotations where he says that any allomancer with access to steel or iron could learn to do this. I think I posted it in the "do Steel inquisitors need to burn metals" thread. I'll look for it.

Here it is. Brandon's MB2 annotations, chapter twelve:

Quote
By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody--at least, nobody the heroes know--is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

I seem to remember hearing it was a steel-coated bronze earring, or a bronze coated steel one, or something like that.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on May 16, 2008, 06:19:48 AM
It's definately bronze earring, that's why Vin is so powerful as a seeker
I don't think you need to be in danger to snap when using the bead, I think that's just how later generations come into their powers.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on May 17, 2008, 11:16:16 AM
A couple of things come to mind, as I stay up waaay too late to read all of this:

Rashek probably took the power for himself because Kwaan had told him the truth - that the prophecies had been changed. Therefore, Rashek would be going on this mission to lead Alendi astray, knowing he wasn't really the Hero, and trying to dissuade the others from following him. And in the end, he could have even gone into the Well of Ascension in order to stop Alendi from doing it. And that would have been what the Mist Spirit wanted, so no resistance there. Created the things that would aid him in Preserving what he had set. He brought order. The Kandra could be spies, the Koloss troops, and the nobles the ones who actually believed him (and his uncle Kwaan), so they get Allomancy. All in the name of Preservation. Call him evil, but I think he was really just hardened by 1000 years of preserving things as he initially set them, which was influenced by the fact that he was going against pretty much everyone from his own civilization, since they all thought Alendi to be the Hero to save them all. And he was a cool guy from what we know, but possibly coming off arrogant since because he was so sure (outwardly) that he was the Hero.

If the thing trapped in the Well is Ruin, trapped by Preservation, then everything the Lord Ruler creates is for Preservation. Keep things as they are; crush rebellions, find your enemies through spies, etc.

The Ashmounts could actually be part of Ruin, since they seem to be semi dormant volcanoes, maybe even held dormant by the mists, which could be Preservation, depending on the kind of people the mists killed. Brandon does say in his annotations (Chapter 15)

Quote
Mostly, I'm showing the real danger of the mists--that there IS indeed a reason to fear them. Either way, remember one thing from this chapter. Some people were killed (and there's a connection between the two people you've heard described specifically as dying from the mists) some people got away, and some people had seizures, but then were all right later.

Which two people were "Old Jed," described as being a "hard worker" (pg 42). The other was "Old Jell" who was "Bullheaded" (pg 141). More thoughts on that?

Last thought for the moment: "Legends say" that there were no mistborns or mist before the ascension, according to Sazed, but we know that Copperminds are subject to Ruin's manipulations, so that may not even be true; a thousand years have gone by.

So, this doesn't account for the Mists coming in the daytime, and I know there's a lot I've missed, but there are my thoughts. Ideas? Discuss.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Cosmic_AC on May 19, 2008, 10:08:05 AM
If stopping Vin was the only motivation the Mist had to nearly kill Elend, then why did it give her the means to heal him ? If a child disobey its parents, it has to suffer the consequences. Did Vin deserve to have Elend back ? I mean, if you were the Mist Spirit and you did not want her to liberate the power, after she did so, would you reward her ?

Well, the Mist Spirit isn't a parent, and letting Ruin go free is not a trivial, childish mistake.  The Mist Spirit seems to be compassionate and benevolent -- and it sees no purpose in "revenge".  It probably figures there's no turning back anyway; allowing Elend to die isn't going to un-unseal Ruin.  Since nothing is made worse by giving Elend a bead, there's no reason not to save his life.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on May 19, 2008, 03:34:12 PM
Except that is evident for everyone that the Mist Spirit is against the Well Spirit. If the Well's power was from Preservation and that is the power Rashek touched, than it follows that the Mist Spirit is from Ruin and therefore cannot be compassionnate or benevolent. Of course, if the Well's power tends after Ruin, than it would make the Mist Spirit of Preservation and I would understand it would want to preserve Elend's life. Do you see the clear contradiction ? The only thing I wish to understand is its motivation. I don't mind whatever it is, just want to know.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on May 20, 2008, 12:20:40 AM
Except that is evident for everyone that the Mist Spirit is against the Well Spirit.

I don't know about this...particularly since the Well spirit could be of Ruin or Preservation or neither. I would say that it is against ruin, not necessarily the well spirit. I'm inclined to believe this as it fixes your contradiction problem as well.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on May 20, 2008, 01:10:40 AM
If the power of Preservation was what was keeping Ruin, or the Well Spirit trapped in the well, then releasing the power could be what let it go, but using the power for Preservation would have kept it there, like what the Lord Ruler did.

Wild Idea - Is the creature in the well Ruin? What if it's neither Ruin nor Preservation, but creature of destruction trapped there by Preservation, that Ruin simply wanted to release? So it's a game between the two, since Ruin wants change, but Preservation wants to resist change, but neither of them is trapped.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on May 20, 2008, 03:39:17 AM
I do not understand one thing. Why do you see Preservation as static and not wanting change ? Isn't preservation also for life ? What does it want to preserve ? Why do you think it want to preserve things in a static way ? Don't we talk about life preservation ? If so, life is also movement but not ruin.

Ruin is suppose to be opposite to Preservation. If that is so, you are saying that ruin is change... I really don't see change as a mean of ruin, though, or why would ruin be so dramatic ? To me ruin equals destruction, pretty much what Vin felt at the Well's spirit. And preservation means to preserve life by all means whatever the cost.

A picture of this would be the mistwraight that eat dead stuff just to make it "similarly" live in them again, Kandra eat dead corpse and give them a second life, the Mist Spirit intends and makes Elend stronger in making him a Mistborn, the snapping is also a mean of preservation since it does give a second life to those who snapped, etc.

On the opposite, lives have to be taken to create an inquisitor, they do not continue in any other way. We do see quite clearly and in plain sight that inquisitors are there to destroy (Vin's mom who killed her sister, Zane who was told to kill everybody - but Vin, Marsh that had to kill Sazed, etc...) and not to preserve anything except the power of the evil that was hiding in the Well.

We know that the Lord Ruler touched only one power, Ruin OR Preservation. Most of you guys believe he touched Preservation because of its disgust of change, but what is static is bound to deteriorate and at the end, die. If you do not go forward, you go backward. If you do not progress, you go reverse. Life is not static and somehow, I do not see it as Ruin either. Life is movement. People grow older but bare their own seed before they die - that is life preservation, plants grow bigger and they bare their own seed before they die. Each go into multiple phase before they die. You cannot say that is static, and you cannot say that is destruction either.

If OreSeur/TenSoon thinks that TLR created the Kandra, he also stipulates that his memory doesn't go that far. No Kandra alive has seen the beginning of its race and like the Terris people, they have to believe what TLR wants them to believe. You have to remember that anything that was told by TLR cannot be trusted. It is not certain at all that he did create Kandras. It is just like him wanting to believe he is God and knows both powers, like Brandon says in his annotations. He did lie to people, and that could also be another one of those.

Let's not jump to conclusion to fast.

Qarlin, it is certainly a possiblity that the entity or spirit living and trapped in the Well could have been there by the will of Preservation. But this power, we have to remember as per Alendi's logbook and Vin's impression, is evil and wants destruction not because it's mean, but simply because it is all it aspires. In this case, the power would belong to Ruin. Remember, the power is sentient and devious.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on May 20, 2008, 05:12:15 AM
We don't so much see preservation as being static and unchanging as preventing change being the means it uses to preserve things. What does preservation want to preserve? Everything. However, this is impossible, so it preserves as much of the good things as it can. Ruin, on the other hand, wants chaos, which it does through changing the order of things. It confused me for a very long time before I started thinking of it like this.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on May 21, 2008, 12:22:57 AM
Yes, I like the idea of the destructive power being held in the well, except for the fact that: it's sentient. anmd the way it changes things, and the fact that it is mentioned in the third book's summary that it is indeed, Ruin who has bee nreleased by Vin.
I also think there is something else in the well.
I don't think preservation was in the well at all, but the lord ruler used the power of creation, used to imprison ruin, to meet ends that matched that of preservation, I don't think the lord ruler was wokring with preservation, I just think that his motives sort of matched those of preservation
AS for benevolent, I don't know, the spirit stabbed people, and it caused Vin to fall off that building.

This should really all be on the ruin preservation thread shouldn't it, wasn't this originally about hemalurgy.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: AvalonDreamer on May 21, 2008, 12:29:02 AM
Wow... You just buzzkilled your own ADD trip, man. Isn't that for the mods and more serious old-timers (Ookla anyone?)?

I haven't seen any evidence to point to anything else being in the well, though... But I agree on the point that Ruin was unleashed, and that Preservation and TLR have been in-cahoots for a while (maybe Preservation started mind-controlling him!).
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on May 21, 2008, 05:42:28 AM
So back on Hemalurgy then, is it safe to say that Hemalurgy is in opposition to the power that held Ruin in the well? Since she had to remove her earring when she entered. That could also be why the Inq. couldn't free it. Prolly weren't strong enough to open that door either.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on May 21, 2008, 01:55:41 PM
That or it is the power that held ruin in the well. I like this, the whole opposites attract, likes repel thing being true. I can also see where you're coming from though, and think it seems more likely.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on May 21, 2008, 09:03:58 PM
Marsh was guarding the entrance to the secret passage way to stop (by killing him) Sazed who wanted, in turn, to stop Vin to go to the Well. I believe it is safe to say that Inquisitors (and whatever force they're with) wanted the power to be freed.

The only thing is, though, that I cannot see Inquisitors be of Preservation. Since we do know that TLR touched only one of the two, we have to discard the other one. If TLR touched Preservation and also made the Inquisitors through his hemalurgical powers, than the evil and terrible power in the well would have to be Preservation and not Ruin as we think. Do you see my confusion ? And another question is, why did TLR not trust the Inquisitors ? It took them, after all, 1000 years to get the power that the Obligators had and that only through trickery.

On the contrary, if TLR touched Ruin and made the Inquisitors, we can deduct that the power in the Well was Ruin.  You would not want to release your ennemy... unless of course, it became your ennemy during those 1000 years.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on May 22, 2008, 04:43:55 AM
Though, with the "likes repel" idea, it could be just Ruin in the Well, which would explain why releasing it without using it would set it free, but using it would leave it captive - draining it so it can't escape.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on May 22, 2008, 04:58:14 AM
I tend to agree with that idea, Qarlin.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on May 22, 2008, 06:40:22 PM
Are you saying that TLR might have used Ruin (by taking the power to himself) in order to make sure it could not escape ?...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on May 22, 2008, 07:43:57 PM
More that the Lord Ruler took the power at the well, thinking of it as power, while it actually WAS Ruin (Or at least Ruin's source of power, which may be himself...).  The Lord Ruler controlled what the power did, so Ruin couldn't use it and has now become stronger when the power is refilling.  I would imagine that being free he will be even more powerful. That about sums it all up.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on May 23, 2008, 04:42:06 AM
That's a theory on it, yeah.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on June 01, 2008, 07:30:56 PM
Do we know that kwaan told RAshek what was going on.  We know RAshek did as Kwaan asked, but we alsdo know he hated alendi and all of khlennium because ALendi was chosen as ther hero.  I don' think kwann would need to justify himself to Rasshek, Rashek would be eager to hinder alendi in any way possible. 
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on June 01, 2008, 08:50:06 PM
Kwaan's original order was "get him lost and if you can't kill him - he must not reach the Well of Ascension".

We do not know if Kwaan did add something like "be the hero yourself, nephew and go get the power yourself" but he must have given some type of explanation to justify his asking. I mean to a killer, you don't have to justify yourself, but Rashek was his nephew, and no killer as far as we can read. But being family, they must have had some trust between the two. Obviously, Rashek thought he knew the prophecy. Was he wrong ? We do not know yet. But I guess, if my niece comes here and talks about a subject I know very well, I would not call it "justify" but I would gladly share my knowledge with her. So Rashek must have known a few things. I doubt though that he had the mission to take heroship on his shoulder.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on June 02, 2008, 04:07:22 PM
There are plenty of questions about that, and that's why I think Rashek will be MB3's "epigraph person." First one was Alendi, second one Kwaan, so why can't the third be Rashek? It would certainly explain things...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 02, 2008, 07:20:49 PM
That makes sense, and I would really like to get some things from Rashek's viewpoint. If you guys have any hemalurgy references, add them to the hemalurgy reference thread (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5852.0). I've not been working on this for a while, but I'm starting back up again. I don't think I can speculate much more without knowing where things come from.

I think that it is most likely that Rashek knew he would kill Alendi, but didn't plan on "taking the heroship" upon himself until he got to the well.

All right, due to chaos' request that the discussion from "the mists" be moved over here, my reply is here. Reaves, I believe that at the same time Vin is noticing how Zane can hover with Steelpushes, she remarks that doing that takes long hours of practice to learn enough control. Not that no one else could do it. As for Vin drawing on the mists, quote from Mistborn 1 Annotations, Chapter 38 part 3.

Quote
The same is true for Allomancy. The vast majority of Allomancers aren't powerful enough to look beyond the basics. For them, simple rules like "You can't Push on metals inside of someone's body" apply. It's much easier to tell someone that, as opposed to "People's bodies interfere with Allomancy, making it much harder to affect metals inside of them--so hard, in fact, that only some people you'll never meet can Push on metals inside of people's bodies."

It is a matter of degree of power. Vin, for reasons I'll explain eventually, has access to far more Allomantic power than regular people. The Lord Ruler is the same way, though for different reasons. And so, he can affect metals that are blocked by blood. Vin has to draw upon another, external source of power in order to produce the same effect, but it is possible for her.


Also, MB1 annotations Chapter Nine

Quote
The mists and Allomancy feeling right to Vin have something to do with the ending, where she draws upon the mists for an extra burst of power. I'm afraid I can't say more until we get to future books.

Between those two quotes, Brandon makes it seem like Vin drawing on the mist has more to do with her being particularly powerful in allomancy than anything else. The other thing that goes against your theory is that at the end of book one, when Vin is fighting the lord ruler, he pushes her earring away before she draws on the mists. Since this is supposedly her source of hemalurgical power, I think that it makes sense for the mists to be repelled by hemalurgy, and Vin somehow used a form of allomancy to "burn" the mists.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on June 02, 2008, 10:03:22 PM
All right, due to chaos' request that the discussion from "the mists" be moved over here, my reply is here. Reaves, I believe that at the same time Vin is noticing how Zane can hover with Steelpushes, she remarks that doing that takes long hours of practice to learn enough control. Not that no one else could do it. As for Vin drawing on the mists, quote from Mistborn 1 Annotations, Chapter 38 part 3.

Quote
The same is true for Allomancy. The vast majority of Allomancers aren't powerful enough to look beyond the basics. For them, simple rules like "You can't Push on metals inside of someone's body" apply. It's much easier to tell someone that, as opposed to "People's bodies interfere with Allomancy, making it much harder to affect metals inside of them--so hard, in fact, that only some people you'll never meet can Push on metals inside of people's bodies."

It is a matter of degree of power. Vin, for reasons I'll explain eventually, has access to far more Allomantic power than regular people. The Lord Ruler is the same way, though for different reasons. And so, he can affect metals that are blocked by blood. Vin has to draw upon another, external source of power in order to produce the same effect, but it is possible for her.


Also, MB1 annotations Chapter Nine

Quote
The mists and Allomancy feeling right to Vin have something to do with the ending, where she draws upon the mists for an extra burst of power. I'm afraid I can't say more until we get to future books.

Between those two quotes, Brandon makes it seem like Vin drawing on the mist has more to do with her being particularly powerful in allomancy than anything else. The other thing that goes against your theory is that at the end of book one, when Vin is fighting the lord ruler, he pushes her earring away before she draws on the mists. Since this is supposedly her source of hemalurgical power, I think that it makes sense for the mists to be repelled by hemalurgy, and Vin somehow used a form of allomancy to "burn" the mists.

I'm trying to understand what you are saying. You believe that drawing on the mists is actually an Allomantic power? But hemalurgy allows her to do that? And you also say drawing on the mist has to do with her being particularly powerful in Allomancy? Can you try to explain? Because I'm pretty sure that Sanderson said the three magic systems are unique; intertwined, but unique.

As far as Zane goes, he has a spike in his back and likes to cut himself. We all agree that spikes/piercings give hemalurgy, yes? He also appears to 'push away' mist.

Also, for those of you who havent been following the "Mists" thread, my theory is that the mists are not actually being repelled from hemalurgists, but burned. The effect would visually look nearly the same, i think.
Quote
from MB1 synopsis
While she was fighting him, she drew upon the mists somehow, burning them in place of metals.
Emphasis added, of course.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on June 02, 2008, 10:20:38 PM
Andrew is saying that you can only use hemalurgically endowed powers if you have a spike, and that the time Vin drew on the mists, her earring had been pulled out just before. So whatever Vin did when she drew on the mists must not have anything to do with hemalurgically endowed powers. When she's tried to repeat the feat later, she hasn't been able to--but she's been wearing her earring.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on June 02, 2008, 10:47:27 PM
Hum. Actually Andrew you are right.
Quote
That day, they had fueled her Allomancy, giving her a strength they shouldn't have had.
Also, my previous quote about using the mist instead of metals supports this idea.
This would explain several things actually; why mistborn are called mistborn, and why the Allomancers of old were stronger than modern-day. It would not explain why mist follows them....but the fact that mist is around them allows them to burn it more often.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on June 02, 2008, 11:14:50 PM
I thought what Andrew meant was that it couldn't be Hemalurgy--at least, that's what I got from his post.

As for Reaves's idea that burning the mists is Hemalurgy, and it would appear the same as repelling the mists, I don't exactly believe that. First of all, from a physics perspective, lets say you were an Allomancer, and the mists surrounded you. However, the mists aren't inside you, immediately. So, if you were to burn them, they would have to get inside you, some way. That would mean the mists would be pulled to you, not repelled. (In fact, just this line of thinking gets me to my theory that the mists are the reason why Allomancy works, as stated in the beginning of The Mists topic).

Secondly, drawing upon the mists cannot be Hemalurgy for the simple reason that there were no spikes involved. You see, Hemalurgy is used through metal piercing the body, whether it being a giant spike in Zane or the Inquisitors' face, or a simple bronze earring. I've called this metal sort of like a "lightning rod". In any case, whenever there is a case of the mists repelling, someone has a spike inside of them.

Because Vin was only able to burn the mists after she removed her earring, the only metal piercing her body, that leads me to believe that the earring actually hampered the effort to draw on the mists.

Plus, the very nature of the word "draw" is to move it closer to you. The ending of MB1 gives no reason to suspect otherwise.

I may add that we never see Vin draw on the mists in MB2 because she's always wearing the earring. Of course, this gives her Hemalurgical powers, but it does nothing to increase Allomantic ability. I think this is rather logical (in both an evidentiary standpoint and reasoning), because if Allomancy attracts the mists and Hemalurgy repels the mists {Complete tangent that I just realized: I used 'attracts' and 'repels' because that's what Brandon uses. But, those terms are magnetic-related in nature. This could go in the 'Allomancy being related to Magnetism' topic. Just an interesting observation.}, it could be possible that one hampers the other's effort, like a cancelling effect.

Of course, Zane's observation that the mists were both being attracted and repelled doesn't help that model at all, but you get what I'm saying.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on June 02, 2008, 11:55:18 PM
yeah. He's convinced me. it couldn't be hemalurgy. Brandon himself says that 'they [the mists] had fueled her Allomancy"

Of course, Vin could be wrong, but i think she would know.

However, i do not believe that what we are seeing is mists being repelled. I think they are being burned. What is the basic, overriding principle of Allomancy? You burn metals to accomplish something, whether that is increasing your senses, strength, etc. With mists it is the same basic principle; they are being burned to accomplish something. They are not being repelled; they are melting away.

It could simply be that this is a technique that has been lost over the centuries to Mistborn; we know the Mistborn of old were more powerful. They certainly forgot about other things, such as the last six metals.

I think the earring has something to do with her being able to break through bronzeclouds. After all, the only time she has been able to use the mists was to fight TLR, but she can break bronzeclouds all the time.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on June 03, 2008, 12:28:37 AM
Aha! You've stumbled upon one of the key facts about Hemalurgy. There is evidence to support the fact that breaking copperclouds (not bronzeclouds, by the way, you got those mixed up). I won't say them in this post, but I promise you its all in this topic. Both me and Andrew separately created very similar theories on how Hemalurgy operates, and definitely includes that the bronze earring allows Vin to pierce copperclouds. I think page 9, but I'm not sure on that.

Anyways. As I said in my last post, Vin's wearing her bronze earring practically all through MB2. Because of this, she can pierce copperclouds (all the time through MB2).
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on June 03, 2008, 01:55:14 AM
I like your thoughts Reaves, especially about the mists being burned, but I think that maybe that's how the mistborn of old were so powerful, they drew upon the mists, but the modern mistborn's power is too diluted to do this any more, except for Vni, she is a special case.

One Question:  How long have the inquisitors been established for.  Di the lord ruler start creatin them at the beginning of his reign, or did Mistbonr serve him just fine, until they started becoming corrupt, and he need more loyal servants, who are more powerful than the diluted mistborn.

I'm not usre if thsi hemalurgy has been thought up yet, I remeber it from somewhere, but anyway, what if hemalurgy is jsut the passing on of abilities, and each metal contains a different ability.  For example: Bronze passes on the ability of a seeker to pierce copper clouds, perhaps a steel spike allows a normal person to become mistborn, and iron lets them see lines extra clearly, and maybe some other metals transfer other attributes like strength or healing, sort of like hemalrugy or something like that.  And this is the key point: allomatic abilites and other talents are passed by genetics or by BLOOD.  That's what the sacrifice is for, it passes one person's genetic talents on to another person.  The only probem with this theory is where does the lord ruler get all thes mistings tro sacrifice, that's the problem I have with it too, so here's the anser: Kar says he feels different kinds of pain with different emotions right?  Well that got me thinking, what if something similiar happens with hemaluryg.  What if certain personality traits or genetic traits in the people who are sacrificed affect the power that is given: like stubborn people when sacrificed over a pewter spike give strength, or nosy people give a bronze spike the power to pierce copper clouds.  It could also be gentic, like color of hair, or eyes.  The one problem I still have is that Vin's sisters was sacrificed for Vin's earring, and she was just a a baby, so she wouldn't have developed many personality traits yet, maybe it's genetic traits then.  Or maybe it's a certain emotion at the time of the sacrifice, and that's why inquisitors  are hard to make, you have to make each sacrifice feel a particular emotion at the moment of their death, even with soothers anbd rioters, how difficult would it be to make someone feel extremely hapy or excited right before they are killed?  And perhaps the more pure the emotion, the more powerful the power transfered into the spike.  There are still many loos thread, and it's very confusing, but I thought I'd post it anyway, so I could get your guys's thoughts on it, and that maybe it might get someone moving on a new train of thought.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on June 03, 2008, 02:56:25 AM
Hmm...only one thing with my theory. It means that Inquisitors must be mistborn, and there are some very good theories which say they aren't. Any evidence for or against?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 03, 2008, 03:35:01 AM
This thread should clear up a lot of your question. (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5736.0)  I'll try to summarize some of it so you don't have to read as much.

 I was originally against inquisitors using allomancy, but have since changed my position. This quote was the reason for me. MB2 annotations, Chapter 12:

Quote
By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody--at least, nobody the heroes know--is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

The basic argument here is that Brandon says that anyone who could burn steel or iron could learn to see in "matrix vision" (darxbane's term for how Inquisitors see), which would mean it is related to allomancy and not hemalurgy. Brandon also mentions that the inquisitors have a subtle touch with steel and iron, which implies that they do indeed burn steel and iron.

Another important argument made was atium, which goes against the passive abilities theory that's floating around somewhere. Inquisitors can use atium, but don't use it all the time, suggesting that their supply is rather limited. Otherwise they'd just burn it all the time. Anyway, no one could think of a way for anything else to produce a similar effect to atium.

Lastly, there's Kelsier. He says several times that Inquisitors have all the powers of full mistborn, and implies that they do use allomancy. On the other hand, he never does straight out say that they use allomancy, and he could be misinformed. The basis for my original argument against inquisitors burning metals was this quote from the MB1 annotations, chapter 38 part 2:

Quote
Marsh's plan to kill the Lord Ruler is a good one too. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from Hemalurgy, but from other things as well. If he'd pulled off the bracelets instead. . . .

I based my argument off the idea that the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from hemalurgy, and for some reason that implied to me that the inquisitor's power did come only from hemalurgy. I can't think of any of my other arguments, but there are probably others in that thread I linked you too. As I said, personally, I feel that inquisitors do have the powers of mistborn and do burn metals, so yes, they are mistborn. They just don't have to be to start. Somehow they gain the ability in the process of becoming an inquisitor.

Coma, I like what you have to say, but it's basically just a reiteration of a lot of previously mentioned theories. The problem is that we don't have enough evidence to totally disprove them, but I still think that it's not likely that it's a passive ability or that the transfer of power comes through the blood directly. The other problem that has not been mentioned with the misting per spike theory is that most mistings are not very strong, and their allomantic power is dilute enough that they can only burn one metal. Inquisitors, however, seem to have very strong allomantic powers, so I have trouble believing that weak allomancers could be the source of strong allomantic power for inquisitors. Once again, the quote about inquisitors being difficult to replace is easily explained by the fact that you have to get 11 spikes into the body at exactly the right spots, and without killing the person in the process. Doesn't sound particularly easy to me.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on June 03, 2008, 03:10:26 PM
You guys have all been quite busy.  It's good to see some theories reiterated, although I have been staying away from posting because of it.  I have new evidence to possibly support my theory that Inquisitors do not burn metals like allomancers.  When Kelsier gives Vin her second Atium bead, he tells her not to swallow it until she needs it, because it gets ruined by the digestive juices in the stomach rather quickly.  However, when she swallows and activates her Atium against the Inquisitors, they simply turn it on without swallowing anything.  Zane does the same thing; he is never seen swallowing Atium, and he doesn't take any with him when he checks out his stash at the end of book 2, yet he uses it against Vin, and uses it for a long time.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: squitz on June 04, 2008, 09:43:32 PM
I don't have any earth shattering insights, having only just read the Mistborn books over this last week but i did want to point out a thought i had after reading through this thread.

When talking about the Inquisitor's spikes it was mentioned that Sazed found spikes of different metals, and that the Inquisitors probably had spikes of all the Allomantic metals. It was a huge post with a lot of detailed information (i think it's on page 9). After reading it the only hole i saw is there can't be an atium spike. Marsh was helping the crew at the end of MB1 (as opposed to the end of MB2 when he is against them) and it would only take a single spike made of atium in one of the several Inquisitors that die at the end of the book to avert the money crisis in book 2. The very start of MB2 specifically mentions that Vin holds the last their atium, and that all they had was what Kell left her and the parts of TLR's bracers that were atium; then it mentions that Elend sold those bracers.

That's all the insight i have. you guys are certainly providing some interesting ideas that are well thought out, and it will be fun to see how close (or far) you all are when the last book comes out.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on June 04, 2008, 09:57:31 PM
Zane does the same thing; he is never seen swallowing Atium

He probably carried a bead in his mouth like he did with coins. That way digestive juices didn't ruin it and he'd be able to swallow and burn instantly. If it's a big enough bead he wouldn't need water to wash it down like you would with metal flakes.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on June 04, 2008, 10:34:57 PM
...the only hole i saw is there can't be an atium spike. Marsh was helping the crew at the end of MB1 (as opposed to the end of MB2 when he is against them) and it would only take a single spike made of atium in one of the several Inquisitors that die at the end of the book to avert the money crisis in book 2. ...

Nice catch!  Somehow that never occurred to me.  Then again, I've been withholding judgment on a lot of these theories floating around.  I think they're interesting to read, but most of them can't completely convince me because there's so much we don't know yet - they're just guesses, if informed guesses.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on June 04, 2008, 11:12:52 PM
...the only hole i saw is there can't be an atium spike. Marsh was helping the crew at the end of MB1 (as opposed to the end of MB2 when he is against them) and it would only take a single spike made of atium in one of the several Inquisitors that die at the end of the book to avert the money crisis in book 2. ...

It appears that Marsh didn't tell them much about Inquisitors, so it's possible that if they did have an atium spike, he didn't tell them about it either or even took them for his own means. Not saying this is the case, just playing da.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on June 04, 2008, 11:55:41 PM
...the only hole i saw is there can't be an atium spike. Marsh was helping the crew at the end of MB1 (as opposed to the end of MB2 when he is against them) and it would only take a single spike made of atium in one of the several Inquisitors that die at the end of the book to avert the money crisis in book 2. ...

It appears that Marsh didn't tell them much about Inquisitors, so it's possible that if they did have an atium spike, he didn't tell them about it either or even took them for his own means. Not saying this is the case, just playing da.

the only problem with that is he probably would have used it against Sazed. But i quite understand the DA  :D
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Shaevar on June 05, 2008, 07:51:23 AM
I didn't read all the comments on this thread, but something seems odd to me.

Why do people thinks that Vin is using Hemalurgy? Inquisitors have eleven spikes of metal in theirs bodies and Zane had one in the back. Why on earth would Vin be an hemalurgist? Because of her earring?

I recall marsh saying that the process to create an new Inquisitor was messy (it involved, as far as I know, big metals spike in the body and lot of deads, since marsh said there was several corpses used in his fabrication). The smalls earring of vin and the death of her sister, in my humble opinion, aren't enough to create an hemalurgist. I mean, compare the size of the spike versus the earrings of vin, the death of her sister (who was a child) with the amount of corpses involvend im Marsh creation.

The connection is interesting, but Vin seemed to lack....proper transformation. I mean, every hemalurgist seen had spikes , why would she make an exception?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on June 05, 2008, 01:34:56 PM
Well, first of all The Lord Ruler was a hemalurgist, and didn't have any visible spikes. He did have piercings, however. Also, perhaps it takes more death to hemalurgize? is that a word? to hemalurgize eleven massive spikes than to do the same to a small earring.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on June 05, 2008, 02:18:24 PM
That's right, and if you reread book one, you find that the death of Vin's sister was described as "messy", which is exactly how Marsh describes the Inquisitor transformation process.  EUOL has mentioned in the annotations that Hemalurgy requires blood.  It is not hard to believe that there would be one sacrifice per piercing.  Vin's Hemallurgical powers are very small (piercing copper clouds).  Other than that, she only seems able to feel the pulsing of the well with it.  She is unable to draw on the mists again, and every time she tries she is wearing the earring.  Finally, in the last part of book 2, Elend notices that Vin is repelling the mists, something that EUOL has confirmed is a result of using Hemallurgy.


As for the atuim spikes, it is possible that Marsh was not completely versed in what the Ing's spikes were all made of.  Also, it is apparent that he is holding things back when they ask him questions, so maybe he just didn't tell them.  As to why he didn't burn atium against Sazed; maybe he hadn't yet been trained on that ability.  He still wasn't a very good allomancer in the fight with Sazed, at least compared to the Inq's we see in book 1.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on June 05, 2008, 03:04:18 PM
Zane does the same thing; he is never seen swallowing Atium

He probably carried a bead in his mouth like he did with coins. That way digestive juices didn't ruin it and he'd be able to swallow and burn instantly. If it's a big enough bead he wouldn't need water to wash it down like you would with metal flakes.

The problem with that thought, VegasDev, is that saliva is incredibly acidic, too. It essentially acts the same as regular digestive juices in breaking down food.

Quote from: Shaevar
I didn't read all the comments on this thread, but something seems odd to me.

Why do people thinks that Vin is using Hemalurgy? Inquisitors have eleven spikes of metal in theirs bodies and Zane had one in the back. Why on earth would Vin be an hemalurgist? Because of her earring?

I recall marsh saying that the process to create an new Inquisitor was messy (it involved, as far as I know, big metals spike in the body and lot of deads, since marsh said there was several corpses used in his fabrication). The smalls earring of vin and the death of her sister, in my humble opinion, aren't enough to create an hemalurgist. I mean, compare the size of the spike versus the earrings of vin, the death of her sister (who was a child) with the amount of corpses involvend im Marsh creation.

The connection is interesting, but Vin seemed to lack....proper transformation. I mean, every hemalurgist seen had spikes , why would she make an exception?

The importance in that, I believe, is simply that metal was inside her body, as a piercing would. A spike would just be, essentially, a far bigger "piercing".

Also, there is the fact that Vin's earring is bronze, which coincidentally is the metal that finds Allomancy. But it isn't a coincidence. Honestly, we don't really know the direct effects of Hemalurgy, other than the mists being repelled, but it appears that it is some kind of enhancement to Allomancy (that is just what is seen right now, not my actual opinion. I personally believe that Hemalurgy is a separate magic from Allomancy, so it is more than just an enhancement of Allomancy. Just, we haven't seen those different powers yet). The metals, in both Allomancy and Hemalurgy, must, logically, have similar powers. Vin can pierce copperclouds, so why is that? The earring, Hemalurgified, provides an explanation. Most Allomancers don't wear metal on their body... but Vin has that earring. And it's bronze.

It would be too coincidental if that wasn't the explanation.

On another note, it's important to realize that whatever Vin uses, Hemalurgy-wise, pales in comparison to what Inquisitors have. Inquisitors are far different creatures than Vin, in most conceivable ways, the most clear example being that Inquisitors have incredible healing abilities. Vin does not have anything close to the Inquisitors in that respect.

Quote
Finally, in the last part of book 2, Elend notices that Vin is repelling the mists, something that EUOL has confirmed is a result of using Hemallurgy.

Page number, please? I don't remember that at all. How could I have missed that, lol? (But asking that is like wondering why I missed crucial details about Zane, but whatever...)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on June 05, 2008, 04:49:37 PM
...the only hole i saw is there can't be an atium spike. Marsh was helping the crew at the end of MB1 (as opposed to the end of MB2 when he is against them) and it would only take a single spike made of atium in one of the several Inquisitors that die at the end of the book to avert the money crisis in book 2. ...

It appears that Marsh didn't tell them much about Inquisitors, so it's possible that if they did have an atium spike, he didn't tell them about it either or even took them for his own means. Not saying this is the case, just playing da.

OK, I guess that's possible.  I would have thought that Vin and the crew would have wanted to study those Inquisitor bodies, to learn as much as they could about them, even though they now knew the one most important fact: how to kill them.  However, perhaps there was enough confusion there at the end of MB1 that Marsh could have had a chance to dispose of the Inquisitor corpses while the other crew members were busy setting up the new kingdom.  Maybe they even ASSIGNED Marsh this job, since it would naturally be in his domain and at that point they all still trusted him.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 05, 2008, 05:40:46 PM
Let's see, you just killed God, you have taken over the area he ruled, and you are now trying to organize this massive kingdom without getting killed or letting the people down. Oh, and it doesn't help that you're trying a completely new form of government, as well as the fact that your budget is shot (you didn't find the atium). These guys have a lot on their minds. Their not going to be thinking about, "Hey, let's go study the inquisitors!" As far as they're concerned, the Inquisitors are going to disappear now that the Lord Ruler is gone anyway.

Chaos, I'm beginning to wonder if piercing copper clouds is not hemalurgy related and is just a result of being a very strong allomancer. The well's pulsing though, I am fairly sure has to be her earring. I don't really have any evidence on this, I just think that it feels too much like an allomancy enhancer, and I'm trying to get away from those.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on June 05, 2008, 05:48:04 PM
  Finally, in the last part of book 2, Elend notices that Vin is repelling the mists, something that EUOL has confirmed is a result of using Hemallurgy.
can u give a quote of him saying that? i dont remember anything like that...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on June 05, 2008, 05:51:30 PM
Zane does the same thing; he is never seen swallowing Atium

He probably carried a bead in his mouth like he did with coins. That way digestive juices didn't ruin it and he'd be able to swallow and burn instantly. If it's a big enough bead he wouldn't need water to wash it down like you would with metal flakes.

The problem with that thought, VegasDev, is that saliva is incredibly acidic, too. It essentially acts the same as regular digestive juices in breaking down food.

Yes, saliva does help soften and break down food, but it is nowhere near as acidic as the stuff in your stomach. The only reason the digestive juices dont burn right through your stomach wall is that the stomach has its own mucus lining.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on June 05, 2008, 07:45:08 PM
I would think Zane would have trouble talking with an atium bead in his mouth all the time, especially one large enough to accomodate the time he kept the burn going.  I can't remember the exact page right now, but if you find the chapter where her and Elend are heading to Kredik Shaw to find the well, Vin tells him something about the mists, and Elend replies, "Actually, it looks like the mists are moving away from you!"
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on June 05, 2008, 08:46:27 PM
The problem with that thought, VegasDev, is that saliva is incredibly acidic, too. It essentially acts the same as regular digestive juices in breaking down food.

Wow, first time I've heard saliva had acid in it. Here I thought saliva was 98% water, with the reamining 2% primarily mucos, antibacterial compounds and enzymes which really only break down starches and protein.  ;)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on June 05, 2008, 11:45:01 PM
You could be right, VegasDev. My biology knowledge is not very immense... I just heard it helps break down food. To me, that sounds like acid, but it could be as you said. I don't really know.

Quote from: Andrew the Great
Chaos, I'm beginning to wonder if piercing copper clouds is not hemalurgy related and is just a result of being a very strong allomancer. The well's pulsing though, I am fairly sure has to be her earring. I don't really have any evidence on this, I just think that it feels too much like an allomancy enhancer, and I'm trying to get away from those.

Actually, that was what I thought when Shaevar brought it up. New people definitely make you question the evidence to make sure you are right. At first, I'll admit I didn't really know evidence right off the bat. It's just something we kind of assumed for a really long time.

However, I'd be surprised if it didn't. It is way too coincidental for there to be a bronze earring--specifically because Ookla said Brandon changed the earring's metal for "obvious reasons" (from it being steel to the steel just being a sort of paint covering the bronze)--and the bronze not being particularly vital to piercing copperclouds. And since Allomancy/Feruchemy gives no indication that having a piece of metal pierced in you would actually help, it is logical to presume it is Hemalurgy related.

I just thought of something. You can only "pierce" copperclouds when you have metal "pierced" in you! Aberration of language, or vital clue?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 06, 2008, 12:08:04 AM
Well if we're going to be technical about it, The definition of acid varies from scientist to scientist, but the Arrhenius definition is a substance that dissociates in water to produce hydrogen ions, and the Bronsted-Lowry definition is any substance that loses a hydrogen ion in a chemical reaction. Acid doesn't necessarily dissolve things. It's mostly just the stronger ones that do.

If I recall correctly, saliva is just slightly acidic, but not enough to make much difference in the digestion process. That is done mostly by the enzymes that VegasDev was talking about. Anything left behind is digested by your stomach acid, which is very strong acid (pH = 1, Hydrochloric Acid).

But anyway....

Chaos, I think that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for that to be coincidental. Particularly if Brandon decided he wanted to plant a couple of false clues for us to find.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on June 06, 2008, 12:25:40 AM
That would be positively depressing...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 06, 2008, 12:29:41 AM
I think I'd just laugh for about twenty minutes. Then I'd come here and laugh some more. Then I'd probably take a nap or something like that.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on June 06, 2008, 12:44:30 AM
well, the only other people who can pierce copperclouds that we know of are hemalurgists, so i think its fair to say that is one of hemalurgy's benefits.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on June 06, 2008, 12:47:39 AM
If I recall correctly, saliva is just slightly acidic, but not enough to make much difference in the digestion process. That is done mostly by the enzymes that VegasDev was talking about.

I was just joking, I'm a programmer not a scientist although I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. Back in the day I did play alot of bar trivia and I seem to recall that saliva is more of an alkaline base, which is essentially the opposite of an acid.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on June 06, 2008, 01:00:47 AM
lol yeah if u think about it, how fast do you think your saliva is gonna melt through a piece of solid metal?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: tolbert the yeti on June 06, 2008, 01:31:49 AM
well the hemalurgy seems proportionate to the amount of blood shed. Inquisitors increadable  ability to burn continually and very powerfully.) and vin unable to burn as powerfully. but she is more powerful when she draws upon the mists and can push metals in Lord Rulers body. and inquisitors all gain the abilities of an increadably powerful  mistborn. and due to Tensoon's reference to the powers mistborn of old being more powerful but diluted through the ages and seperated. then isn't it logical to asume that the mistpirit and his mists are pure and the more powerful and ruin's mists and hemalurgy are a less powerful counterfiet? just thinking...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 06, 2008, 01:49:16 AM
lol yeah if u think about it, how fast do you think your saliva is gonna melt through a piece of solid metal?

That depends. If it is acidic, it will actually do it quite a bit quicker than you're probably thinking, as acid reacts with metal. If it is a base, though, then it'll just sit in your mouth forever, which would allow Zane to do the atium thing. Most bases don't react with metals at all.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on June 06, 2008, 03:08:47 AM
Anyway, this website says healthy saliva is slightly alkaline, pH 7.4.
http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/salivaphtest.htm
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 06, 2008, 03:39:18 AM
In that case, yes, you would be able to stick a metal in your mouth and it wouldn't dissolve.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on June 06, 2008, 06:19:45 AM
Maybe... maybe it doesn't matter whether the spit will dissolve an atium bead. Just saying... I think EUOL would fall out of his chair laughing if he read some of the things we look into his work for.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 06, 2008, 10:32:16 PM
Even if it is possible, I don't think it's likely, seeing as Zane still talks with no difficulty, and without vin noting a large bead of atium in his mouth. And yes, I suspect Brandon would find many of our posts vastly amusing.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on June 06, 2008, 11:24:00 PM
I'm sure that Zane uses Atium beads because:
He has a bunch, we know this, why would he have it all if he didn;t need it
the times he's used atium he was going into the city for a  purpose that would require it(attacking Cett, and confronting Vin)
He's not afraid to keep metals in his stomach overnight, and he has lots of atium, why wouldn't he injest it, just in case.

As for Vin earring, I'm pretty sure it's more than a false lead, it has to have something to do with hemalurgy.

And the Atium spikes, what was said about them not being atium, because they didn't use them for funds, makes a lot of sense.  Remember, Marsh didn't start acting really funny until book 2, in book 1, he's still mostly himself, and he says the inquisitors didn't know where the atium was, I thihnk he would reveal if all the inquisitors had a huge atium spike in them, at least in book one.  I also think Elend and Vin would be very conscerned about learning about the inquisitors, because they woudl be some of the main threats to the throne.

I still the think the are mist born because of the metal ( the one elend ate), and that hemalurgy is something else, that gives them other powers.

CONTINUED FROM MISTS THREAD:
I'm just saying that they might have to be seekers before hand, we know they have all the powers of a mistborn afterward (even though they might come from a different source).  I just thought of this, The well beats with pulses, Ruin is in the well, Ruin speaks to hemalurgists, it seems Ruin is related to the pulses that seekers, mistborn, and inquisitors can hear.  Many of us thing that Hemalurgy has much to do with Ruin, so what if being a Seeker, and being able to hear the pulses is important in the ritual that makes inquisitors?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 07, 2008, 01:15:49 AM
Coma, where did Marsh say the Inquisitor's didn't know where the atium cache is? I don't recall that. Although it makes sense that he wouldn't. However, if Ruin is whispering in Marsh's head that he shouldn't trust Elend and Vin, he's not going to tell them if inquisitor's have an atium spike, because he'd be worried about them pulling his own in order to save their kingdom. Sacrifice for the greater good kind of thing. Marsh may not even be aware if he has an atium spike in him. For all we know, Inquisitors just get a bunch of spikes pounded into them. They may not know what these spikes are made from until the next ritual to make Inquisitors, which Marsh wouldn't have seen at that point. 
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on June 07, 2008, 02:07:01 AM
just a quick side note: Do we know if Marsh is working with the other Inquisitors, or is he going solo?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 07, 2008, 04:04:18 AM
just a quick side note: Do we know if Marsh is working with the other Inquisitors, or is he going solo?

No. He seems to be going solo, but ruin is likely controlling him as well as the other inquisitors, so in that respect he's working with the other inquisitors.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on June 08, 2008, 07:58:36 PM
At the start of book two, I know he wouldn't tell them, but at the end of book one, when he tries to help Vin beat teh lord ruler and kills all the other inquisitors, i think he's still largely above Ruin's influence, which means he would tell Vin and Elend about the atium spike.  we have no evidence that Ruin is influencing the inquisitors at the end of book one.  As for the Marsh saying the inquisitors don't know, or he doesn't know, I'm pretty sure it's in the  epilogoue of book one, I could have imagined it though, so, I'd better check.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 08, 2008, 08:43:20 PM
I don't know...If I had a giant source of wealth inside of me that could be removed, but the removal would kill me, I wouldn't tell anyone about it. Even my closest friends. Even if there are other people with the same amount of wealth inside of them that are already dead, they may remember later, or may decide that what they have isn't quite enough...I would be very hesitant to give out information that my survival may depend on people not knowing.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on June 08, 2008, 09:00:25 PM
But Marsh is (was) a very sacrificing man, he devoted his life to making life better for the skaa, I think he'd share the secret.  He was also feeling outdone by Kelsier, who stole his dream, he'd want to do his part.
He does however, NOT reveal that the inquisitors know nothing of the Atium, sorry, I'm usually more careful when I'm reading, I must have imagined it.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on June 09, 2008, 06:22:00 PM
Anyway, this website says healthy saliva is slightly alkaline, pH 7.4.
http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/salivaphtest.htm


Well, this website says your website is a hoax. :)
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/reams.html

But the upshot is, saliva can range from slightly acidic to slightly alkaline, depending in part on what you've just eaten.  Either way, I think we all agree that a metal bead wouldn't dissolve nearly as fast in the mouth as in the stomach, which is the salient point.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on June 09, 2008, 09:40:54 PM
I'm not surprised.

But anyway I believe that allomancy works when you swallow something, not when it dissolves.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on June 10, 2008, 05:57:03 PM
I just want to know if people with tongue rings are worried about acid eating away their hemalurgic abilities.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on June 10, 2008, 06:14:36 PM
I just want to know if people with tongue rings are worried about acid eating away their hemalurgic abilities.

Hmm, I'm picturing Inquisitors with tongue rings. ... Fascinating!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on June 13, 2008, 06:30:08 AM
The primary reason why I bought the new Mistborn paperbacks was to see if there was a MB3 sample chapter. The new MB1 does.

And it has a very interesting piece of information regarding Allomancy. Basically, the chapter is about Spook and how having Tin on basically a year straight (it appears the time between 2 and 3 is another year). It says... his powers have been enhanced far beyond the powers of a normal Allomancer.

I'm going to quote some multiple paragraphs, but since Brandon says on the MB2 paperback that its posted on his site (it isn't, unless I just can't find it, but I presume Brandon intends to post it), I figure it would be okay:

Quote
To Spook, however, they [the mists] were barely an obstruction anymore. He'd always been told not to flare his tin too much; he'd been warned not to become dependent upon it. It would dangerous things to his body, people said. And, the truth was, they were right. He had flared his tin nonstop for a year straight--never letting up, keeping his body in a constant state of super-heightened senses--and it had changed him...

Somehow, by flaring tin for so long, he had permanently enhanced his senses to a point far beyond what other Allomancers could attain.

This explains a ton. First off, it explains one reason why Inquisitors have an incredible power to see with Steel (which, Brandon says in annotation that any Allomancer can learn to do). Obviously, the Inquisitors would constantly be burning steel or iron whenever they are awake. Such would have a permenant effect on the Inquisitors' eyesight, making them much more powerful.

Likewise, with the Lord Ruler and his Soothing, constantly Soothing from Kredik Shaw would change his abilities far beyond the power of a normal Allomancer...

Now, for the Inquisitors, this is just more evidence they actually use Allomancy, not some weird Hemalurgy for their eyesight.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on June 13, 2008, 03:19:40 PM
This is not terribly surprising, although it is nice to know it works with all metals.  We are already aware that pewter dragging gets easier the more you do it.  I am guessing that the consequences of always burning metals was exaggerated to keep people from becoming too powerful.  It could also be that Spook is unknowingly drawing upon the mists to enhance his Tin Burning.

I disagree that this is evidence that Inquisitors burn metals.  It is obvious that the Hemallurgy process gave them Allomantic powers, but we still do not know for sure if they actually ingest and burn metals.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on June 14, 2008, 12:05:04 AM
Well, Kell said in book one when they were talking about pewter dragging something to the effect of "burning metals too long causes parts of your body to bend, and bend them too much and things start to break."

I think this is just evidence of the bending he was talking about, where Spook's senses are getting pulled beyond normal human capacity, and I expect Spook will at least start breaking in book three. (I wouldn't be surprised if he was blind, deaf, and numb by the end of the book.)

Though now my mind starts to wonder what would happen if someone kept atium flared for a year . . . Perpetual future vision?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on June 14, 2008, 12:28:35 AM
Thanks for the info, I'm gonna have to go pick up the paperback so I can read the rest.

However, I don't want to come back only to see a bunch of theories that the Lord Ruler was actually a good guy to start his rule but by flaring his metals for so long he snapped and began neutering his own race.....
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on June 14, 2008, 01:46:19 AM
I'll have to read that, when will it be up do you think?

I like that theory on why the inquisitors are so good at the metals they are, because they use them all the time.  It certainly would be great foreshadowing, and it might explain wh ythey need to rest, but that's jsut for allomantic abilities, we still don't know much about their hemalurgical ones.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on June 14, 2008, 06:22:09 AM
However, I don't want to come back only to see a bunch of theories that the Lord Ruler was actually a good guy to start his rule but by flaring his metals for so long he snapped and began neutering his own race.....

I don't think you would have to worry about that. Your body could snap with Pewter-dragging, but you can't use emotional Allomancy on yourself. Thus, its unlikely that your own mind would snap. The Lord Ruler is just an unavoidable tyrant--no doubt about that one.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Vintage on June 14, 2008, 07:18:03 PM
Ah ! I had some nice catching to do ! Fun ! But this time, I cannot add significantly to this thread. Only this quote :

Quote
The Inquisitor paused, and she was rewarded by what seemed to be a look of confusion on its twisted face. Then a hundred shadow images shot from his body.

Lord Ruler ! Vin thought. He had atium too.

So, Inquisitors can "use" atium and it seems available upon simple request. Somehow, I just can't imagine an Inquisitor saying to himself  "I will get my atium dose just in case I meet a silly mistborn that will want to fight me today"... Because, really, does atium have any other influence on an Inquisitor other than give him allomantic powers ? And atium being so rare to start with, would Mistborns (or a potential atium misting) really risk to fight an Inquisitor ? I doubt that very much.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on June 14, 2008, 07:39:34 PM
Perhaps inquisitors can store metals for longer than normal people, maybe their bodies are so stretched and integrated with metal, that they don't have to worry about keeping metals in their stomachs.

Oh, and does anyone know when I'll be able to find those sample chapters on the net?  I don't think I'll be in a book store for  a while.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on June 14, 2008, 09:31:45 PM
Ah ! I had some nice catching to do ! Fun ! But this time, I cannot add significantly to this thread. Only this quote :

Quote
The Inquisitor paused, and she was rewarded by what seemed to be a look of confusion on its twisted face. Then a hundred shadow images shot from his body.

Lord Ruler ! Vin thought. He had atium too.

So, Inquisitors can "use" atium and it seems available upon simple request. Somehow, I just can't imagine an Inquisitor saying to himself  "I will get my atium dose just in case I meet a silly mistborn that will want to fight me today"... Because, really, does atium have any other influence on an Inquisitor other than give him allomantic powers ? And atium being so rare to start with, would Mistborns (or a potential atium misting) really risk to fight an Inquisitor ? I doubt that very much.

yes, i don't quite understand the theory that they always swallow atium in the morning. OK, the Lord Ruler has about ten times as much as anyone else. If we assume he gave it all to the Inquisitors and is not using it to make malatium or simply hoarding it, there still isnt enough for them to have a dose every single day.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on June 16, 2008, 05:40:09 PM
yes, i don't quite understand the theory that they always swallow atium in the morning. OK, the Lord Ruler has about ten times as much as anyone else. If we assume he gave it all to the Inquisitors and is not using it to make malatium or simply hoarding it, there still isnt enough for them to have a dose every single day.

Unless they vomited it up again each night they didn't use it (as Vin does with the bead Zane gave her, when she doesn't end up needing it in the attack on Cett's keep).
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 17, 2008, 03:26:13 AM
I don't know that the Inquisitors would use atium often enough in order to want to vomit metal up every night. Think about how often they're going to get attacked by a mistborn. Approximately....3 times in their lives? Maybe more now, but before...It doesn't really make sense. Also, if you swallowed atium in the morning, much of it would have digested by the time you vomited it up at the end of the day. Apparently it is vulnerable to dissolution, so stomach acid would make get rid of most of it in that amount of time.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on June 17, 2008, 08:00:33 AM
I don't know that the Inquisitors would use atium often enough in order to want to vomit metal up every night. Think about how often they're going to get attacked by a mistborn. Approximately....3 times in their lives? Maybe more now, but before...It doesn't really make sense. Also, if you swallowed atium in the morning, much of it would have digested by the time you vomited it up at the end of the day. Apparently it is vulnerable to dissolution, so stomach acid would make get rid of most of it in that amount of time.

But wouldn't the spikes in the body pierce the stomach lining, letting the atium-dissolving acids in said stomach drain away?

...Ew. That's disgusting...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on June 17, 2008, 03:41:14 PM
...Ew. That's disgusting...

I'm not sure it's possible to discuss Inquisitors in a non-gruesome way.   :)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 17, 2008, 06:09:33 PM
Chaos, I seem to remember reading somewhere that all of the inquisitor's spikes (with the exception of their lynch pin and their eye spikes) are in their chest. However, I'm having trouble remembering where exactly it was that I read that, so I could be (and probably am) totally wrong. However, it would not be a good idea to pierce the stomach enough that the acid could drain away. Stomach acid is potent stuff. If I remember correctly, it's a type of hydrochloric acid, which puts its pH at 1. Having that stuff swishing around loose in your body...not good. Although I guess that could be (yet) another explanation for why inquisitors need to rest often. 

Anyway, back on track....

I personally believe that the inquisitors do not ingest atium every morning, as it seems impractical. However, that requires that they have some way of getting it fast and before they should technically know they are going to need it, or that they have some other ability (*cough*hemalurgy*cough*) that produces the same effect as atium.

As a side note, atium would probably be completely useless to inquisitors. The only thing that might happen is that they see where the metal lines would be in a few moments, which would be REALLY confusing. So, wouldn't that mean that the only reason an inquisitor burns atium is to confuse the mistborn he's fighting?

My head hurts when I think about only being able to see via metal lines. When I factor in being able to see the equivalent of 20 or so extra people...ouch.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on June 17, 2008, 07:58:38 PM
Or maybe the inquisitors bodies have been changed so much, that one bead of atium will not dissolve after a day in their stomachs.  That's what I'm trying to say, They jsut swallow a bead of atium, keepp it within themselves, unti lthe need it, and then when they use it up, they swallow another  bead.  Is that clear??
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 17, 2008, 08:40:41 PM
So basically, Inquisitors have the ability to store metals forever until they need them. I like that, it actually makes a lot of sense. Not sure how it would work, but it does make sense. Still, they must go through a lot of steel and iron.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on June 17, 2008, 09:04:50 PM
So basically, Inquisitors have the ability to store metals forever until they need them. I like that, it actually makes a lot of sense. Not sure how it would work, but it does make sense. Still, they must go through a lot of steel and iron.

Yes, I like that concept too.  We know that Inquisitors' physical bodies have been changed in some pretty dramatic ways.  If they can survive having spikes pounded through their heads and chests, then their systems (at least circulatory and nervous) must work in radically different ways than ours.  Why not their digestive systems too?  Do we ever hear of Inquisitors eating?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 17, 2008, 09:09:27 PM
Not that i can remember. The only thing we do know about them in that regard is that they need lots of rest. I don't know, though. If they don't get energy from food, they'd have to get it from somewhere else entirely. I don't think you could survive through pewter dragging for forever. So, the question would be, if Inquisitors don't eat, how do they survive?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on June 17, 2008, 09:17:41 PM
very good points raised. It could be they simply need to rest often, it could be they actually live off of metal (no evidence for this at all that i know of) they could live off something related to Hemalurgy.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on June 17, 2008, 09:22:25 PM
So, the question would be, if Inquisitors don't eat, how do they survive?

Good question, but one I don't think we can answer yet.  You might as well ask how they survive without blood circulating or without brain function.  The trouble is, their blood DOES circulate somehow (at least I'm pretty sure they bleed in several of the fight scenes) and their brains DO work (at least, they give every appearance of sentience, thought and reason).  It's just that there must be some change to their bodies to allow them to do these things.  Similarly, there might be some change to their digestive systems to allow them to consume and absorb nutrients in a way that normal people don't.  This might be something different about what they eat or how they eat it.

Of course, this is all wildly speculative, a way to explain Comatose's idea about the atium beads not dissolving in their stomachs.  I'm starting to think it's getting too complicated to be plausible, but who knows?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 17, 2008, 11:25:14 PM
I think that most of our theories are too complicated to be plausible. That's what makes them so fun!!!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on June 18, 2008, 12:09:31 AM
I love how much you guys went into on the acidity of stomach acid and saliva :) I recall reading that 8 of their spikes are in their chest too, could the location of them be important?  As for the misting blood sacrifice for the the "allomantic" powers, that gets shot down by atium. Just one question, does it say anywhere that TLR uses allomancy? I don't seem to recall this.. but I need to do a re-read.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: somonel on June 18, 2008, 05:16:56 AM
I don't know whether this has been mentioned or not, or whether this is too much of a spoiler or not, but...

EUOL mentioned in some of his earlier posts something about Inquisitors, and Mare.
He said, "There's more going on here, of course.  If I ever write the Kelsier short story that talks about him discovering the Eleventh Metal, I will get into why the Inquisitors weren't given Mare as they wanted.  The Lord Ruler specifically chose to send her to the Pits rather than handing her over to the Inquisitors.  (Note: She wouldn't have ended up on a hook.  Inquisitors had other...uses for skaa Mistings they captured.  See book three.)
In fact, this already has too many spoilers.  Ask me more after Mistborn 3 is out."


So I suspect that Inquisitors take skaa mistings, and sacrifice them to endow Inquisitors with their powers. Of course, you'd need one misting of each metal to be sacrificed for each power, so that requires multiple bodies. It also explains why they choose someone who already is a misting to become an Inquisitor - it means one less illegal misting to hunt down and sacrifice.

Of course, I don't know how atium mistings could be found... But still; I think its pretty obvious from EUOL's slip-up there that you need mistings to be sacrificed in order for Inquisitors to get their abilities. Vin's sister was also probably a misting, I'm thinking, also.

I always wanted the Hemalurgy magic system to be something other than simply an extension of Allomancy though. I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that its a magic system in its own right, like Feruchemy. Guess we'll have to wait till MS3.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 18, 2008, 06:35:41 AM
I don't know whether this has been mentioned or not, or whether this is too much of a spoiler or not, but...

EUOL mentioned in some of his earlier posts something about Inquisitors, and Mare.
He said, "There's more going on here, of course.  If I ever write the Kelsier short story that talks about him discovering the Eleventh Metal, I will get into why the Inquisitors weren't given Mare as they wanted.  The Lord Ruler specifically chose to send her to the Pits rather than handing her over to the Inquisitors.  (Note: She wouldn't have ended up on a hook.  Inquisitors had other...uses for skaa Mistings they captured.  See book three.)
In fact, this already has too many spoilers.  Ask me more after Mistborn 3 is out."


Link, please? Or at least say where was it posted. I looked all through MB1 annotations and didn't see anything. I even started on MB2. Anyway, I would appreciate that.

That would definitely support the misting per spike theory that's been floating around for a while now. Now I don't know what to decide. I used to be very against it, but now...not so  much. Although, arguably, it could be some other use that creating new inquisitors.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on June 18, 2008, 07:00:29 AM
I've never been much for the misting sacrifices, either, but if we get confirmation... I'm not bigoted enough to admit when I could be wrong :P.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: somonel on June 18, 2008, 07:44:06 AM
EUOL's comment is on this page of the forums: http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5668.msg118158#msg118158

His is the third comment on the thread.

I still think that there are other aspects to Hemalurgy besides just the granting of Allomancy powers, though. B.S. always said that there were three magic systems, which were unique, but intertwined. What we know of Hemalurgy so far seems more like an extension of Allomancy than a magic system in its own right, so there's probably a lot more out there.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on June 18, 2008, 08:25:53 PM
Just because the inquisitors have uses for Ska mistings, doesn't mean they are for the sacrificing, as you said before, when I was originally proposing this theory, that would mean they had to sacrifice a full mistborn for every inquisitory, and possibly a feruchemist, for the healing abilities.  And about the spikes in the chest, I think the positioning is important.  Did anyone else notice that the chest, where most of the spikes are, is the same place the iron and steel line point to on a mistborn?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on June 19, 2008, 01:23:29 AM
I'm with coma on the sacrifices.. I did not notice how the lines point to a mistborn's chest. book 3 plskkthnks
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 19, 2008, 05:11:08 PM
I've never liked the misting per spike theory, and I think there are probably other explanations for why inquisitors would want Mare. There are too many problems with the misting per spike theory for me. Coma, I'd just noticed that the spikes are in the chest (where the lines go) when you pointed it out. Most excellent. My one question is why does it matter? I'm sure it has some significance, but it's lost on me at the moment. Also, aren't the steel and iron spikes in the eyes, and the lynch pin spike at the back of the base of the neck? Those are the only ones we know for sure.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on June 19, 2008, 08:39:07 PM
I don't like the misting per spike theory any more either, I'm still a fan of the "They eat the metal to get allomancy, and hemalurgy does something different." theory (boy, we have a lot of these).  We know that the heart is in the chest, and hemalurgy has something to do with blood is there a conncectio nthere?   Also notice how each power seems to correspond to a body part: Allomancy-stomach, Hemalurgy-blood (i know it's not actually an organ, but it's aprt of the body) and Feruchemy- Brain? (metalminds?)  Just something I've been tossing around in my head.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on June 19, 2008, 10:02:09 PM
Doing the re-read of Mistborn, and when Vin is sparring or practicing with steel/iron the blue lines come out of her chest and point to the metals near by, could that have anything to do with the SI's chest-vision thing?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on June 22, 2008, 08:16:07 PM
i still don't agree that you need to sacrifice a mistborn to get an inquisitor, but it would be easier to make mistborn if the Inqs have a good supply of the metal that made Elend a mistborn.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 05, 2008, 05:33:31 PM
Well I don't have the time right this moment to read all 18 pages,
but I'll get to it.

So,
I'm not sure if this was mentioned before,
but I'd like to point something out that would highly support that Hemalurgy would have to do with blood.

-Oh god,
here comes the linguist in me.-

Hemalurgy could be broken down as follows.
If we look at the first root word,
we get Hema,
now Hema means blood.
The second part would be urgy,
which means a process of working,
so they are using the blood to do something.

This would follow patters,
such as Alloy in Allomancy,
would mean metals.
Mancy would obviously be the manipulation,
or exploitation,
of the previous thing.

Feruchemy can be broken down to Fetra,
which means limitations,
and chemy would mean chemistry,
so it would be the interactions of limitations.
In this case they use the metals,
in order to change what the limitations would be.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on July 05, 2008, 07:32:54 PM
The Feru in Feruchemy is loosely related to ferrum, the Latin word for iron.

Your posts would be a lot easier to read if you used normal paragraphing. Writing like a normal human being is a requirement to participate in this messageboard.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 05, 2008, 07:58:10 PM
AS for the linguistic stuff, I think that was mostly covered already, sorry.  It is a daunting task to read this whole thread though, and it does take a while, it's hard to start in when a thread has been going for  a while, if you have a really good idea, and you don't have time to read the whol thread, try skimming through posts, instead of reading them just to see if waht your saying has been mentioned before, and then read through the whole thing when you do have time, because these threads really are great reads!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 05, 2008, 08:12:29 PM
The Feru in Feruchemy is loosely related to ferrum, the Latin word for iron.

Your posts would be a lot easier to read if you used normal paragraphing. Writing like a normal human being is a requirement to participate in this messageboard.
Sorry, it's habitual.

As pertaining to Feru, in Greek Feru is a sub form of the word Fetra, which means limitations.  That combined with the "chemy" part of the word makes me believe that it is more aligned in this manner.  As well as the fact that Hema, mancy, and urgy all being from Greek roots, would all support the idea that the root Fetra was used.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on July 05, 2008, 11:43:26 PM
Brandon isn't being that precise. I was here on the messageboard in the thread where he came up with Feruchemy:

http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=4819.0

Quote
The word I'm drawing the 'Ferr' from anyway is Latin for iron, which is Ferrum.

First post. Feruchemy's original name was (dum dum dum) Hemalurgy.

Actually, that thread might give people in this thread some ideas.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 06, 2008, 12:12:12 AM
I stand corrected.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 06, 2008, 02:35:22 AM
lol i feel like such an idiot. We have what? 6+ pages simply talking about whether Inquisitors use Allomancy or not and Sanderson says right out they use Hemalurgy. This also tells us that drawing on or 'burning' the mists is not an Allomantic ability (which most of us suspected) Mystery solved!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on July 06, 2008, 02:52:30 AM
I wouldn't draw the same conclusions as you based solely on what he says in that thread.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on July 06, 2008, 04:11:22 AM
We can however draw the conclusion that Hemalurgy is an active process. We can also note that the Steel Inquisitors actually use Hemalurgy, instead of it just being the process by which they are made. Finally, all three magic systems use metals in different ways and they all draw power from different sources.

From these facts, we can deduce that Hemalurgy is not just some sort of passive enhance-other-abilities skill, (Though it could be an active enhancing skill.) Inquisitors do have powers beyond that of Allomancy, and that Hemalurgy does not draw it's enhancing power from the metals themselves or stored attributes within those metals.

Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 06, 2008, 12:58:13 PM
Of course i am not solely using what Sanderson said to conclude that burning mists is a hemalurgical ability. I just think it would be stretching the boundaries of coincidence, natural and physical law, blah blah blah etc... that Vin, Zane, and the Inquisitors all 'push' the mists away...and all have hemalurgy. (For those of you who might be new to the thread look through and you will see why we think Vin and Zane use it.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 06, 2008, 05:41:16 PM
I think this theory is very comprehensive and has good foundings in it, but could we also consider that maybe the manipulations of the mists is another power all together.  One which that is not classified in the three magical systems?

-I may post an entire new thread on this later.-
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 06, 2008, 11:51:46 PM
I like the idea, but Brandon says there's only three magic systems.  I'm guessing the inquisitors use allomancy and hemalurgy, but I don't think Hemalurgy enhances allomancy any more (or if it does, it's not the only thing it does, we already know it enhances allomancy somewhat: copper cloud piercing, Zane's skill with steel).  It must also have something to do with the inquisitors ability to heal very quickly and need for rest.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 07, 2008, 12:50:31 AM
Yes, but maybe not just a different system.  Maybe it's an independent power.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 07, 2008, 02:05:41 AM
what do u mean, power? do u mean something akin to Preservation and Ruin?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 07, 2008, 02:19:14 AM
Potentially, possibly a gray area in between the two.

Or an ability that only some people have, but it isn't necessarily its own magic system, just a gift.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Inkthinker on July 07, 2008, 08:36:57 AM
That smacks of deus ex machina plotting, though, which doesn't sound like Sanderson writing to me. Part of the giggle in the whole magic system so far is that he sets up the points and sticks to the rules... adding in a joker to the deck throws a wrench into the works by suggesting that all the rules apply EXCEPT in this one case when it's convenient for them to do so by dint of an as-yet unknown fourth power.

No sir, I don't like it. If that's what's going on, I'll be disappointed.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 07, 2008, 03:51:05 PM
hmm...i think this is moving away from the topic of the thread. Perhaps Miyabi if you would like to explain your theory in depth in a thread of your own making?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 07, 2008, 11:25:01 PM
This is continued from a bit of an off topic ramble (started by me, sorry) on the 16th and 15th metal thread:

All the present day ones are also allomancers at least, and were also allomancer before getting hemalurgy that we know of (marsh was a seeker, most inquisitors (if not all) are seekers beforehand, and Vin and Zane are mistborn).

But Alendi is probably also a hemalurgist of some kind (piercing of the hero) meaning he is probably the only pure hemalurgist we know of.  Too bad we know nothing of him in battle other than the fact that he is proficient, enought to make Kwann worry that he will not be able to be stopped on the way to the well, but he is also in awe of feruchemy, and perhaps afraid of it, and we know Rashek was able to kill him.  Who knows what kind of power Alendi had.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 08, 2008, 12:52:25 AM
The more and more I read the more I like the idea that SI's use their blood to use the metals. As for why they used seekers (I think they said that they use seekers for SI's in the books...) I have know idea. Maybe it's because they have more experience Seeking. Brandon has said they are 3 different systems, so that supports the idea that they use their blood, and the spikes provide the metal in the blood (as we can see with Mistborn and Feruchemists the systems use the metals). That would also explain the reason they have to rest a lot of the time. The SI's use their blood, that makes them separate from the other two systems, but links them by the need of being impaled by the different metals. They have eleven spikes, each different (yet to determine what metals they actually have) but I don't think we can put Duralumin out of the picture for them. They knew about Aluminum so they should know that had its partner. That would also explain why they are so strong. They constantly use Duralumin, which burns more blood along with the selected metal... Weird thought, I was just thinking how they would select the metals to use in the blood... How could they use certain metals? We never see them taking metals so how do they "burn" a selected one? So many questions... I stand by the using blood theory. It makes it separate from the other two.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 08, 2008, 10:13:31 AM
yes i think most of us have the same thoughts. Interesting idea though about them using duralumin to be so powerful.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 08, 2008, 04:50:55 PM
They constantly use Duralumin, which burns more blood along with the selected metal... Weird thought, I was just thinking how they would select the metals to use in the blood... How could they use certain metals? We never see them taking metals so how do they "burn" a selected one? So many questions... I stand by the using blood theory. It makes it separate from the other two.
Sorry to poke a hole in this, but it says in both MB1 and MB2 that the Lord Rulers nor the Steel Inquisitors had discovered the Aluminum alloy, Duralumin.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 08, 2008, 05:14:54 PM
They constantly use Duralumin, which burns more blood along with the selected metal... Weird thought, I was just thinking how they would select the metals to use in the blood... How could they use certain metals? We never see them taking metals so how do they "burn" a selected one? So many questions... I stand by the using blood theory. It makes it separate from the other two.
Sorry to poke a hole in this, but it says in both MB1 and MB2 that the Lord Rulers nor the Steel Inquisitors had discovered the Aluminum alloy, Duralumin.

could u give quotes for this from the book? Something concrete? After all, the Inquisitors knew about Aluminum, they made Vin burn it to destroy all her metals.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 08, 2008, 06:09:57 PM
The whole first chuck of MB2 is talking about Duralumin.  I guess that in neither MB1 or MB2 do they actually say, 'they didn't have it,' but it seems likely to me that they didn't.  Vin does say something about, 'or the Ministry tried really hard to keep it a secret.'  So I guess it is plausible.  But I think the probability is semi-low, after all would not Noorden have known about it and been able to tell Vin and Elend?  Would he have not wanted to tell them this if he had known?  He was after all, a high ranking obligator.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 08, 2008, 07:30:32 PM
so you think Vin was the very first to ever discover Duralumin?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 08, 2008, 07:41:17 PM
Yeah, or at least the first to figure out what it does.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 09, 2008, 12:55:41 AM
Here's my problem with that: they knew about aluminum. So unless they think that the metal that gives Allomancy is paired with it I see no reason they shouldn't know about Duralumin. It does say they know about Aluminum (based on the fact they give it to Vin when she's captured in MB1) so I really do think they know about Duralumin. I can also point out that it doesn't say that they don't know about Duralumin ;) I really want to know how they use the metals/blood now... Going to kill me until HoA.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 09, 2008, 03:12:48 AM
They did think that atium was paired with gold didn;t they?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 09, 2008, 03:14:08 AM
Yeah, they have to know just like everyone else that all metals have an alloy, also usable by Allomancy. It would not be too hard to figure out Aluminum's alloy, especially considering they can put the resources of a millenium-spanning empire to bear on the issue.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 09, 2008, 03:19:36 AM
They did think that atium was paired with gold didn;t they?
Thats what the general Allomancer population thought, i'm not sure if thats what the Steel Ministry thought as well. It would be nice to know where Kelsier found the legends about the Eleventh Metal...

Also it would seem that the legends must have been started by a person who knew that Rashek, not Alendi, was the Lord Ruler.

Also....did anyone notice that Vin saw two people when she used the Eleventh metal on TLR? One a young man, one a Terris tribesman? It is my theory that the young man was Alendi....

BTW my theory is that the Lord Ruler was turning the atium into malatium. Why i don't know. I have absolutely no evidence to support this other than the fact that the atium...isn't there.

lol sry this post is extremely rambling and confusing. One thought led to another....
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on July 09, 2008, 05:38:15 AM
I believe that first time she used the eleventh metal there was more than one person in the room, and the second man was an inquisitor.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comingday on July 09, 2008, 08:07:21 AM
Sorry if I say stuff that has already been said beforehand, but it's late and I jumped onto this forum a little while ago so have not had the chance to read everything.  Also this is my first post so bear with me.

Anyways I had this huge epiphany with the whole hemalurgy and allomancy having to do with the mists.  First of all, the people who use hemalurgy that we have seen so far (ie inquisitors, zane I belive) all have steel within them correct.  Afterall, inquisitors are part of the "steel ministry."  Now steel according to the allomantic table that is in the book pushes (also on a sidenote about this,  in the table it says steel pulls at least in the book I have while iron pushes.  But later on in the definition part, it says that steel pushes which is correct I belive). So my theory is that this is why the mist reacts the way they do to hemalurgists.  Now for allomancy mistborns, I believe that they attract the mist because they are born with allomantic powers.  Possibly this has to do with an abnormal high level of iron that they have within their blood which in turn attracts the mist. 

Sorry once again if this post is a little out of place but I really wanted to throw this idea out there if it hasn't been mentioned before.  Really nice discussions on here by the way.   :)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 09, 2008, 10:18:33 AM
I believe that first time she used the eleventh metal there was more than one person in the room, and the second man was an inquisitor.
GOSHDARNIT!!!! no seriously i am going to reread that section of MB1. i thought they both appeared next to TLR.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 09, 2008, 04:28:56 PM
Anyways I had this huge epiphany with the whole hemalurgy and allomancy having to do with the mists.  First of all, the people who use hemalurgy that we have seen so far (ie inquisitors, zane I belive) all have steel within them correct.  Afterall, inquisitors are part of the "steel ministry."  Now steel according to the allomantic table that is in the book pushes (also on a sidenote about this,  in the table it says steel pulls at least in the book I have while iron pushes.  But later on in the definition part, it says that steel pushes which is correct I belive). So my theory is that this is why the mist reacts the way they do to hemalurgists.  Now for allomancy mistborns, I believe that they attract the mist because they are born with allomantic powers.  Possibly this has to do with an abnormal high level of iron that they have within their blood which in turn attracts the mist. 
First off, welcome to timewastersguide!
So to get this straight you think hemalurgists naturally have a high amount of steel in their blood, and allomancers naturally have a high amount of iron in their blood? and that the metal is unconsciously reacting to metal in the mists? If that were the case, it would seem that an allomancer would never need to drink iron flakes, and vice versa for a hemalurgist. Also what if an allomancer drank no iron, but lots of steel? would the mists still be repelled?

Interesting theory, but without any further evidence i don't think so.

and geez i double post a lot....sry...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 09, 2008, 05:59:39 PM
Well, from what I've seen, Allomancers only burn metal that is in their stomach.  This would make sense, because if you say burned the iron that was naturally in your blood, you would get week and you would probably die.

SO I think that this theory could have some credence to it, but yes, more proof is probably needed in order to verify it.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 09, 2008, 11:07:06 PM
That actually makes a lot of sense, but if Vin is a hemalurgist due to her bronze earring as we believe, that whole line of thinking goes out the window. It also doesn't really explain how it works for people who are both inquisitors and allomancers.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 09, 2008, 11:38:28 PM
A little bit more into theory here.

Note : This also supports my earlier theory that the Inquisitors are NOT burning duralumin.

Also : I know that some of this is mentioned before, I'm just saying it to put it all together into one post.

So we see that Vin can use BRONZE to pierce through copper clouds.  We know that her mother PIERCED her with the BRONZE earing.  -We see how a hemalurgist is made in the prologue from HoA that was just posted.-

Quote from: Brandon
The spike would need to pierce the man's body, passing through the heart, then be driven into the body of the Inquisitor tied below.

So to make the point that Vin got her Hemalurgy from her earing we must first make her mother a Hemalurgist.  So,w hat do we currently know of Hemalurgists?  We know that they have been pierced with metal, and that metal then went through and touched the blood of another Hemalurgist.  We also know that Vin's mother heard voices telling her what to do.  The only other people we hear this happening to are Hemalurgists.  Marsh, Vin,  and Zane.  SO, through this we can ASSUME that her mother was a Hemalurgist and caused Vin to become a Hemalurgist through this manner.

Now let's look at Inquisitors for a second.  They APPEAR to have all of the abilities of a Mistborn.  They have many metal piercings, presumably of all of the metals.  They can burn metals to an extreme degree, much better than any normal Mistborn or Misting.

So my theory on how this works is.  If one is pierced with a Hemalurgic metal, one gains the ability to burn that metal through Allomancy. -Evidence shown through the Inquisitors.-  Also, as per the proof given by the Inquisitors, and through Vin's unnaturally strong ability with Bronze, and Zane's abilities with Steel, we can infer that those with Hemalurgy can burn metals to form a greater affect than those who are just plain Allomancers.

THAT would explain Vin and Zane's strong abilities, as well as the strength and the sudden Mistborn abilities of the Inquisitors.  Also giving more evidence to say that the Inquisitors were not burning Duralumin.[/color]
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 10, 2008, 12:46:15 AM
But Vin is also extremely skilled with brass and zinc (soothing and rioting) and although not as skilled as Zane, Kelsier remarks how easily she picks up steel and iron.
  AFter reading that prologue though, I've come to several conclusions about hemalurgy.
1.  The spike (at least the first one) must be rammed through the sacrifice into the hemalurgist.
2.  This is why the inquisitors dragged off the keepers at the end of book two, to use as sacrifices.
3.  Ruin's powers over the inquisitors is not absolute, there is still resistance
4.  This may also be why the skaa slaves wouldn't do (remember they left them behind in book 2), there needs to be a special person used as a sacrifice.
5.  These new inquisitors mad with feruchemist sacrifices may be different from regular inquisitors, since we all agree that it would hardly be possible to find a keeper for every inquisitor before the Synod came out into the open.  Before they had keepers what did they use as sacrifices?  Does this take us back to the mistborn sacrifice theory.

EDIT
I just reread it and something else jumped out at me that was mentioned before, when talking about the spikes that pierce his head, its says "there was no blood,"  Is this significant?  Why is there no blood, is it just part of hemalurgy, or do inquisitors bleed at all?  I forget, does the inquisitor bleed in Kelsiers fight scene, or is he just beheaded, and that's the end of it?

Maybe that's the reason mistborn are so rare.  And Brandon also says the inquisitors have uses for skaa mistings?  Sacrifices as well?
And I think we've talked a lot about Vin's mom being a hemalurist, and Vin's sister being the sacrifice.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 10, 2008, 01:27:33 AM
I just reread it and something else jumped out at me that was mentioned before, when talking about the spikes that pierce his head, its says "there was no blood,"  Is this significant?  Why is there no blood, is it just part of hemalurgy, or do inquisitors bleed at all?  I forget, does the inquisitor bleed in Kelsiers fight scene, or is he just beheaded, and that's the end of it?
They do indeed bleed.  MB2 page 749 (If it's paperback).
Quote from: MB2
Yet, Sazed could still see Marsh's face.  Blood dripped from the crushed socket.

Yup, they bleed.[/color]
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 10, 2008, 01:54:57 AM
I think that the statement that there was no blood was simply referring to the fact that Marsh isn't constantly bleeding. That makes sense. If his spikes have been there for a while, he wouldn't bleed.


Quote from: Brandon
The spike would need to pierce the man's body, passing through the heart, then be driven into the body of the Inquisitor tied below.

So to make the point that Vin got her Hemalurgy from her earing we must first make her mother a Hemalurgist.  So,w hat do we currently know of Hemalurgists?  We know that they have been pierced with metal, and that metal then went through and touched the blood of another Hemalurgist.  We also know that Vin's mother heard voices telling her what to do.  The only other people we hear this happening to are Hemalurgists.  Marsh, Vin,  and Zane.  SO, through this we can ASSUME that her mother was a Hemalurgist and caused Vin to become a Hemalurgist through this manner.

What? We have absolutely no comfirmation that Vin's mother is a hemalurgist. It makes total sense, true, but the quote you supplied doesn't in any way prove that the person sacrificing someone else to create a hemalurgist has to be a hemalurgist. Look at it again. The spike has to pierce the Keeper's body (he's the sacrifice) through the heart (which probably has something to do with the Keeper's blood) and pass into the man tied below him, who is becoming an inquisitor. We know that Marsh is an inquisitor, and he is doing the sacrificing, but that does not by any means confirm that the person doing the sacrificing has to be a hemalurgist. I agree that Vin's mom was a hemalurgist, but that's beside the point for this particular conclusion. Just want to clear that up.

Now, that said, there is enough evidence otherwise to establish that Vin's mother most likely is a hemalurgist, and that has been assumed for a good deal of time on this particular forum. So really, I don't get what you're trying to prove.

Quote
Now let's look at Inquisitors for a second.  They APPEAR to have all of the abilities of a Mistborn.  They have many metal piercings, presumably of all of the metals.  They can burn metals to an extreme degree, much better than any normal Mistborn or Misting.

So my theory on how this works is.  If one is pierced with a Hemalurgic metal, one gains the ability to burn that metal through Allomancy. -Evidence shown through the Inquisitors.-  Also, as per the proof given by the Inquisitors, and through Vin's unnaturally strong ability with Bronze, and Zane's abilities with Steel, we can infer that those with Hemalurgy can burn metals to form a greater affect than those who are just plain Allomancers.

THAT would explain Vin and Zane's strong abilities, as well as the strength and the sudden Mistborn abilities of the Inquisitors.  Also giving more evidence to say that the Inquisitors were not burning Duralumin.[/color]

This theory has been around for a while, actually, and is seen several times in this very thread. The main argument against this is that Brandon has consistently said that each magic system is independent of the others, though closely intertwined. If this is the case, then hemalurgy becomes a passive ability and not its own magic system.

A side note, any of you guys remember this (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5852.0) thread? I haven't updated for a while and plan to soon, but I have yet to have anyone add anything else. Just send me a quote and where you got it from. Thanks! If anyone wants the compilation of Alendi's Logbook and Kwaan's Steel Plate that vintage did a while back, I still have them. Just give me a PM and make sure that your email is on your profile and I'll send them off to you.


Maybe that's the reason mistborn are so rare.  And Brandon also says the inquisitors have uses for skaa mistings?  Sacrifices as well?

I would assume sacrifices of some sort, though I'm still not a fan of the misting per spike theory.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 10, 2008, 02:53:05 AM
I think that the statement that there was no blood was simply referring to the fact that Marsh isn't constantly bleeding. That makes sense. If his spikes have been there for a while, he wouldn't bleed.

Quote from: Brandon
The spike would need to pierce the man's body, passing through the heart, then be driven into the body of the Inquisitor tied below.

So to make the point that Vin got her Hemalurgy from her earing we must first make her mother a Hemalurgist.  So,w hat do we currently know of Hemalurgists?  We know that they have been pierced with metal, and that metal then went through and touched the blood of another Hemalurgist.  We also know that Vin's mother heard voices telling her what to do.  The only other people we hear this happening to are Hemalurgists.  Marsh, Vin,  and Zane.  SO, through this we can ASSUME that her mother was a Hemalurgist and caused Vin to become a Hemalurgist through this manner.

What? We have absolutely no comfirmation that Vin's mother is a hemalurgist. It makes total sense, true, but the quote you supplied doesn't in any way prove that the person sacrificing someone else to create a hemalurgist has to be a hemalurgist. Look at it again. The spike has to pierce the Keeper's body (he's the sacrifice) through the heart (which probably has something to do with the Keeper's blood) and pass into the man tied below him, who is becoming an inquisitor. We know that Marsh is an inquisitor, and he is doing the sacrificing, but that does not by any means confirm that the person doing the sacrificing has to be a hemalurgist. I agree that Vin's mom was a hemalurgist, but that's beside the point for this particular conclusion. Just want to clear that up.
I may be wrong here, but the way I read it was this.

We know that Inquisitors spiked protrude from their body, because the go all the way through.  And it said in that quote that It has to go through and into the Inquisitor below. (The Inquisitor already having Hemalurgy.)

The way this comes across to me is that in order for the person to gain Hemalurgic abilities, something must impale them and also go into a Hemalurgist in order for them to gain Hemalurgy.  That is where I gained the though of confirmation of Vin's mother being a Hemalurgist.

Quote from: Andrew
Quote from: Miyabi
Now let's look at Inquisitors for a second.  They APPEAR to have all of the abilities of a Mistborn.  They have many metal piercings, presumably of all of the metals.  They can burn metals to an extreme degree, much better than any normal Mistborn or Misting.

So my theory on how this works is.  If one is pierced with a Hemalurgic metal, one gains the ability to burn that metal through Allomancy. -Evidence shown through the Inquisitors.-  Also, as per the proof given by the Inquisitors, and through Vin's unnaturally strong ability with Bronze, and Zane's abilities with Steel, we can infer that those with Hemalurgy can burn metals to form a greater affect than those who are just plain Allomancers.

THAT would explain Vin and Zane's strong abilities, as well as the strength and the sudden Mistborn abilities of the Inquisitors.  Also giving more evidence to say that the Inquisitors were not burning Duralumin.

This theory has been around for a while, actually, and is seen several times in this very thread. The main argument against this is that Brandon has consistently said that each magic system is independent of the others, though closely intertwined. If this is the case, then hemalurgy becomes a passive ability and not its own magic system.
Perhaps I worded this wrong.  What I MEANT to say was they APPEAR to have the abilities of Mistborn, because they can do the same things.  The thing being, they don't have to ingest the metals in order to use them.

Also a random little thing I noticed that MIGHT (this is a long stretch) add to this though is.  Vin is ALWAYS burning Bronze, but do you ever hear her talk of running low?  She talks about it with all of her other metals ALL the time. . . I can NEVER remember her talking of running low on Bronze.  This could just be coincidental though.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 10, 2008, 04:59:52 AM
We know that Inquisitors spiked protrude from their body, because the go all the way through.  And it said in that quote that It has to go through and into the Inquisitor below. (The Inquisitor already having Hemalurgy.)

The way this comes across to me is that in order for the person to gain Hemalurgic abilities, something must impale them and also go into a Hemalurgist in order for them to gain Hemalurgy.  That is where I gained the though of confirmation of Vin's mother being a Hemalurgist.[/color]

I took that to mean that they drove the spike through the Feruchemist and into the Inquisitor below. The Inquisitor below meaning the person who is becoming an inquisitor. Although it could mean the person who already is an inquisitor. In that case, however, I would guess that it means the guy who was already PARTIALLY an Inquisitor. If it required both Feruchemial (or Allomancer) and Hemalurgical Blood to make one spike for an inquisitor, and that spike can fit into one man's chest without noticeably protruding, it would make much more sense to pound it through the two people individually than to try to get both at once. This way, I think makes more sense, where the guy on the bottom, the guy becoming an inquisitor, is the final destination for the spike. Although I do now see what you mean. Thanks for clarifying.

Quote from: miyabi
Perhaps I worded this wrong.  What I MEANT to say was they APPEAR to have the abilities of Mistborn, because they can do the same things.  The thing being, they don't have to ingest the metals in order to use them.

Also a random little thing I noticed that MIGHT (this is a long stretch) add to this though is.  Vin is ALWAYS burning Bronze, but do you ever hear her talk of running low?  She talks about it with all of her other metals ALL the time. . . I can NEVER remember her talking of running low on Bronze.  This could just be coincidental though.

We don't really have proof that the inquisitors don't have to ingest metals. Think about it. We've seen them on screen for what...maybe ten minutes at a time at most? We've never seen them ingest metals, but that doesn't mean that they don't. Plus, we know that the inquisitors CAN use allomancy. So it makes sense that they use it in the regular way, and not through hemalurgy.

Vin never runs out of Bronze for several reasons, among them being that Bronze is slow-burning, and Vin does not always use Bronze, she always uses copper. She does burn bronze fairly frequently. The only metal I can ever remember hearing about Vin running out of is Pewter.

And, Vin still does have to ingest Bronze, and Zane still does have to ingest steel, and other metals for the matter. So, I would say this doesn't look good for that cause.

That leaves me with the same problem I've always had, though. What does hemalurgy do?

It provides their healing abilities, unless it's possible to gain feruchemy. What else does it provide them? Can anyone think of anything that isn't included in allomancy.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 10, 2008, 06:09:03 AM
Vin never runs out of Bronze for several reasons, among them being that Bronze is slow-burning, and Vin does not always use Bronze, she always uses copper. She does burn bronze fairly frequently. The only metal I can ever remember hearing about Vin running out of is Pewter.

And, Vin still does have to ingest Bronze, and Zane still does have to ingest steel, and other metals for the matter. So, I would say this doesn't look good for that cause.
She actually does say in a place or two part of the way through MB2 that she is ALWAYS burning bronze now.

I can remember her running out of Steel, Iron, Pewter, and Atium.  The point being, she always talks about running low on certain metals, but I can never remember her talking of running low on bronze.  I mean, of course she would drink it from the vial of mixed metals, because she wouldn't know of the Hemalurgy.  She can't explain why her Bronze is so strong, just like she used to not know what Luck was.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Jansu on July 10, 2008, 06:34:36 AM
Hello, all. I'm new here, but I'm jumping right in. I just finished reading the annotations for WoA, and I've just read both Mistborn books in the past couple weeks, so I'm new to all the ideas and certainly whatever discussion has taken place here already. Forgive me if I'm treading old water. Especially since I'm gonna jump all over the place.

It's not a well-formed in my head yet, but learning about Ruin and Preservation from the annotations (obviously they'll be featured heavily in HoA) makes me think there's some linkage between the magic systems and each of these entities. I would say Hemalurgy definitely is aligned with Ruin--think about the process of gaining its power and who has had access to it in the series. It's very bloody and messy, requiring sacrifice to gain. In some ways, it reminds me of the Dakhor monks from Elantris.

You'll also note that the Steel Inquisitors, who from what I see have the greatest and clearest link to hemalurgy, enjoy torture and causing suffering, etc. Furthermore, everyone who has hemalurgy hears "the voice" of Ruin. For Marsh, it's strong enough to control him--probably so for all the inquisitors. For Zane, it appeared as "God" but he often resisted it. For Vin, it's muddled up with memories of Reen--and I think the interesting thing about Vin and something that will probably be central to the climax of HoA is how she's overcome the voice (and how Zane was desperate to--"You were supposed to save me!") through trusting. That prominent theme has something to do with it, I think.

So whatever it is hemalurgy explicitly does, it seems linked to Ruin.

Feruchemy, on the other hand, to me seems linked to Preservation. It's what the Keepers do--preserve knowledge. It's what the power is about--preserving speed, strength, etc. for later. With the exception of the Lord Ruler (and even with him, it was used to preserve society, albeit in a tyrannical fashion) it seems to be used for good ends. Although admittedly we haven't seen that many Feruchemists. But I think this is interesting, and I think it's also interesting how Sazed ended up with his jewelry embedded in his skin at the end of WoA--like the Lord Ruler had his, and Brandon made a point of bringing that up in the narration. I'm interested in how that plays out in HoA.

That leaves Allomancy in some weird nether territory, though. The mists draw away from people with hemalurgy--the mist spirit seems kind of schizophrenic, both deadly with Alendi's packman, and with Elend, and it seemed hateful toward Vin. Yet Vin also understood it to be saving Elend and trying to keep her away from the Well of Ascension--which was probably true with Alendi as well. There could be two mist spirits, a good one and a bad one, but Brandon seems to have indicated there's only one. either it's crazy or it's very utilitarian in its opposition of Ruin. Could the Deepness itself be part of Preservation, somehow? To me that doesn't intuitively click, but it makes sense that Ruin, in altering the Terris prophecies, would make the Deepness out to be the enemy and that would explain the actions of the mist spirit.

I think more needs to be said about the Terris religion, which probably spells out about Ruin and Preservation better. And we know that Allomancy can be gained from Snapping due to a traumatic situation. I think the "pain" of that trauma is a good thing that tends toward Preservation's side as well--you gain the power of Allomancy in order to preserve your own life. Certain kinds of suffering like that seem to offset Ruin's ability, like how Zane's cutting himself weakens "God's" voice.

Like I said, I'm playing with a lot of different things, so I apologize. But I don't think we can understand Hemalurgy independently of the other magic systems because they seem complexly interwoven, especially in the characters hinted at having it that we've seen. Vin and the Lord Ruler seem as if they possess all three, and it's hard to say exactly where the Inquisitors get their power from, though there have been hints that they require the sacrifice of a Misting (hinted at in MB1) or Feruchemist (the prologue of HoA).

There's more missing from the puzzle in the Lord Ruler, too--did he create the Inquisitors, or did they already exist? What's his interaction with hemalurgy? I think this goes back to the Terris religion, because he's the only character we know who had knowledge of it--and something in that knowledge probably gave him an understanding of how to access hemalurgical powers for his ends. And if he wrestled with Ruin at the Well of Ascension and took the power for himself, did he think that he could use hemalurgy safely with Ruin so weakened and controlled?

I also think, though this is probably obvious, the three magic systems are linked through the chapter symbols (once again like in Elantris). In fact I think the Ars Arcanum chart shows that the metals are represented by the symbols. The striking thing about many of the symbols is that they look like they have spikes in them in different places, like inquisitors do.

Sorry, this is quite a ramble for a first post. :) Hope I've added to the discussion somehow.

Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 10, 2008, 06:45:11 AM
Like I said, miyabi, bronze and copper are slow burning. Kelsier mentions in book one that many mistborn keep slow burning metals like copper and tin on all the time.

Jansu, Welcome to the forums! If you read the Prologue of Hero of Ages (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/library/29/Mistborn-3-Prologue), you'll see that you're assumption about Ruin and Hemalurgy is correct.

It's whether Preservation is tied to Allomancy or Feruchemy that's a bit blurry. I agree, it seems like feruchemy is the more likely system for preservation. However, it doesn't really fit with what we've seen so far in the series. For instance, hemalurgy repels the mists, allomancy attracts them, feruchemy does neither. Ruin can control hemalurgists and can alter feruchemial metalminds, but seems to have no control over allomancy. So by that line of thinking, allomancy is Preservation's power.

I also agree about the lord ruler, we don't know enough about him to figure everything out. Chaos (a forum member) thinks that Rashek will likely be a character for the "bumps" for Hero of Ages, and I think that that would be awesome. Though the prologue didn't have a bump, so I hope the rest of the book does. Anyway, food for thought, and once again, welcome to the forums!

Sorry, this is quite a ramble for a first post. :) Hope I've added to the discussion somehow.

You should see my first post ;D. It's onpage 9 (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5745.120)  of this thread. This is an average size post for this thread, though for most threads it would be rather long. None of us mind long posts anyway, it's not like we have anything better to do. We are here on the timewastersguide, after all.

If you're interested in catching up real quick on all of our discussion, I'll provide you a few links to interesting threads that will hopefully give you ideas.

First, read this thread all the way through. It's a little boring sometimes, and some of it is a little outdated, but it really is our best ideas so far.

Do Steel Inquisitors need to burn metals? (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5736.0)
Theory on why vin is so powerful (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5697.0). You probably only need to read the first post of this one.
Ruin and Preservation (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5739.0)
The mists (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5782.0)
The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Reference Thread (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5852.0)

There are probably more. I know that's a lot, but it's good stuff. If you don't want to read it all, just ask one of us crazy theorizers what we're talking about when you get confused and we'll try to explain our insane theorizing.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on July 10, 2008, 08:17:36 AM
Quote
However, I personally (still) think it more likely that he's referring to the fact that you have to get 11 spikes into their bodies without killing them, and apparently going through the correct organs of the sacrifice(s).
(Hero of Ages Prologue topic, Andrew the Great)

HA! So what if Hemalurgy has something to do directly with the metal and different organs in the body? Like this metal in that organ of the sacrifice leads to this power in the hemalurgist.

An idea.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 10, 2008, 09:29:24 AM
I may be reading too much into it but he drives brass into the heart, so does that have anything to do with it? Brass soothes(allomancy), but it also stores warmth(feruchemy). I think this is VERY important and we need to discuss this, unless I completely missed something while reading the 2 pages that the prologue caused to appear :)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 10, 2008, 02:06:56 PM
I would agree with what you're saying, it is very significant that they drive the brass spike through the heart. I was actually referring to my belief that they likely drove every spike through the heart of a different sacrifice, and it had something to do with the blood.

It could, however, be related to which spike through which organ = power x. That leaves us with a lot of possibilities for power x though, and many different combinations to get it. Also, glad to be the source of an epiphany :).
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 10, 2008, 03:27:51 PM
also consider that when you drive a spike through someone's chest and into the next person, what happens? Lots of blood. Undoubtedly some of that blood will get transferred to the inquisitor below.... does that mean an Inquisitor needs feruchemical blood?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on July 10, 2008, 05:03:33 PM
The idea I've been playing with is maybe using Feruchemists and Allomancers to make Inquisitors is just a big plus for them. Like maybe Inquisitors gain powers based upon the metals/other substances within their blood, and by using a misting, Mistborn, or Feruchemist sacrifice (thus infusing the Hemalurgist's blood with the blood of the sacrifice,) they would gain the abilities of that sacrifice.

Some of the reasoning behind this is that we're pretty sure both Allomancy and Feruchemy can be transferred genetically, (Allomancy being directly stated and Feruchemy can be inferred by the Lord Ruler's attempt to cull it out of Terris people.) so there would be changes to the bodies of those who burned it, and probably changes to the blood of those individuals as well. Then, when that blood is infused into a Hemalurgist, they can use Hemalurgy to tap into the power stored within their blood, (usually metals, I would assume?) including the genetic abilities of the sacrifice.

This would explain a lot of things; why mistings (And possibly Mistborn) are often chosen to become Steel Inquisitors, as it would just be less Allomantic power they would have to worry about; why Inquisitors who used to be mistings can use every Allomantic power (it was bequeathed them via sacrifice); and why the Inquisitors would be using the Terris Keepers as sacrifices. (Inquisitors with Feruchemy. . . Ouch.)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 10, 2008, 05:34:17 PM
So you think that hemalurgy is just some sort of process that allows people to access abilities that are stored in their blood? That's an interesting idea.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 10, 2008, 06:07:11 PM
I would agree with what you're saying, it is very significant that they drive the brass spike through the heart. I was actually referring to my belief that they likely drove every spike through the heart of a different sacrifice, and it had something to do with the blood.

It could, however, be related to which spike through which organ = power x. That leaves us with a lot of possibilities for power x though, and many different combinations to get it. Also, glad to be the source of an epiphany :).
I also think that certain metal + organ to this equation.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on July 10, 2008, 06:15:26 PM
So you think that hemalurgy is just some sort of process that allows people to access abilities that are stored in their blood? That's an interesting idea.

Not neccesarily an ability to directly use abilities in one's blood, just that coincidentally that's where the power is stored. Like if an Allomancer tries to burn a feruchemical storage that they made. They're burning the metal to preform an Allomantic act, and there just happens to be an added source of power in this metal that they can use. So a Hemalurgist would be using their blood to preform an act of Hemalurgy, and they are able to tap into the other latent abilities of the blood they're using.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 10, 2008, 08:09:46 PM
So they use their blood as the source of hemalurgy, but they also have the ability to use allomancy while doing so because the ability is in their blood? That's really kind of cool, and does sort of make sense.

The main problem with that that I can see is that the inquisitors would always have to use hemalurgy (whatever it does) to access allomancy. Though admittedly, that could explain why they need to rest so often.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 10, 2008, 09:54:25 PM
The only problem I have with the blood transfusion theory is that eventually they would run out of the blood that contained the certain power. They usually give misting the hooks right? Maybe they use the hook and replace one of the spikes that is in their body... OR took the organs from the other person and put them into a new SI (looking for a kidney donor... hahahaha, but prologue ruins that one...) that would satisfy ruins love for pain :) 2 in the lungs 1 in the heart 1 in the pancreas 2 in the kidneys 1 in the liver the 2 in the eyes 1 linch pin... vital organs in the torso anyone?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 10, 2008, 09:57:24 PM
The only problem I have with the blood transfusion theory is that eventually they would run out of the blood that contained the certain power. They usually give misting the hooks right? Maybe they use the hook and replace one of the spikes that is in their body... OR took the organs from the other person and put them into a new SI (looking for a kidney donor... hahahaha, but prologue ruins that one...) that would satisfy ruins love for pain :) 2 in the lungs 1 in the heart 1 in the pancreas 2 in the kidneys 1 in the liver the 2 in the eyes 1 linch pin... vital organs in the torso anyone?
The linchpin is obviously in the spine.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 10, 2008, 10:03:39 PM
I think that just makes sense seeing as how Marsh puts the spike through the feruchemist into the heart. One spike per each organ in the torso, pull the 2 in the eyes. I hope what we read was how they create SI's... otherwise Brandon is of Ruin.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on July 10, 2008, 10:08:31 PM
2 in the lungs 1 in the heart 1 in the pancreas 2 in the kidneys 1 in the liver the 2 in the eyes 1 linch pin... vital organs in the torso anyone?

That only adds up to 10 (2 lungs, 1 heart, 1 pancreas, 2 kidneys, 1 liver, 2 eyes, 1 spine), which organ do you think gets the 11th?

Good heavens, all this discussion is getting gory!  I guess that's inevitable, when you talk about Inquisitors.  I'm amazed at how much I like the Mistborn series in spite of its graphic nature.  It's like Master and Commander: I love watching that movie even though I close my eyes for several scenes.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 10, 2008, 10:09:27 PM
I think that just makes sense seeing as how Marsh puts the spike through the feruchemist into the heart. One spike per each organ in the torso, pull the 2 in the eyes. I hope what we read was how they create SI's... otherwise Brandon is of Ruin.

I would assume so. You're short one spike, though. Never mind, sarah already said that while I was typing.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 10, 2008, 10:13:58 PM
Stomach? Apendix? Small/large intestines?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 10, 2008, 10:18:53 PM
What if Hemalurgy can be influenced by Ruin and Preservation, and it's jsutbeing influenced by Ruin now because he's stronger.
OK, it's a bit of a longshot, but just listen through:  The mists, we can agree are a sort of neutral force, stabilityand chaos and can be utilized by both Ruin and Preservation right.  So why should the mists pulling away signiy ruin, and mists pull towards signify preservation, when the mists are neutral and can be used by both sides.  What if the mists pull away from hemalurgist because they are so polar: the are being directly influenced by one of the powers at any particular time, (hearing voices being controlled), and the mists are a sort of balance.  So what if Allomancer, who pull the mist to them, are really just balanced between Ruin and Preservation al lthe time.  I'm leaveing Feruchemists out of this system, since they dp nothing to the mists.  So while the lord ruler was in charge, i kept the world in check, thus limiting the power of ruin, and preservation was stronger, and so preservation controlled Vin;s mom and gave her hemalurgy, for some purpose of it;s  own, but then when the land is thrown in to chaos, Ruin takes control of the earring in order to draw Vin to him.  Sorry, I should finish this on the Ruin/Preservation thread, but basically, what if Hemalurgist are of Ruin and PResrevation, jsut not at the same time?  I'll continue on the other thread since I got way off topic there!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 10, 2008, 10:19:10 PM
Stomach? Apendix? Small/large intestines?
Stomach was my first thought.  Appendix is just in a very odd place for a spike to go through and stay, same with the intestines.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 10, 2008, 10:22:14 PM
just throwing them out there ;) gall bladder!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: CopperEye on July 10, 2008, 11:43:50 PM
Not to hijack the current discussion, but I found something in WoA that I think applies to hemalurgy.  It's possibly the first time we see hemalurgy from a first person perspective.

Quote
WoA, Hardback, Ch 57, p.557 (quoted relevant parts)

Vin walked through the mists. Elend, Ham, and Spook trailed behind her,…

Vin continued on, feeling the pulsings, the thumpings, the power that shook her very soul.  Why couldn’t the others feel it?
...
She just shook her head.  She knew the truth, now.  The Well was in the city.  With how strong the pulsings were growing, she might have assumed that their direction would be harder to discern.

“Vin,” Elend said.  “The mists are acting … strangely.”
“I know,” she said, “They’re guiding me.”
“No, actually,” Elend said. “They kind of look like they’re pulling away from you.”

So if the mists are pulling away from Vin is she using hemalurgy?  The only thing she is actively doing during this time is feeling the pulses.  So does feeling pulses = hemalurgy?  I think ealier in the book she mentions that she can almost feel the pulses without allomancy.  I'm gonna try and find that reference.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on July 11, 2008, 12:10:04 AM
The only problem I have with the blood transfusion theory is that eventually they would run out of the blood that contained the certain power. They usually give misting the hooks right? Maybe they use the hook and replace one of the spikes that is in their body... OR took the organs from the other person and put them into a new SI (looking for a kidney donor... hahahaha, but prologue ruins that one...) that would satisfy ruins love for pain :) 2 in the lungs 1 in the heart 1 in the pancreas 2 in the kidneys 1 in the liver the 2 in the eyes 1 linch pin... vital organs in the torso anyone?

Back to this point, I was thinking that the Inquisitors might not use up the blood, but either use up the metals within the blood or some resevoir within the blood like in Feruchemy. Thus the Allomantic and Feruchemical powers they wish to use are always contained within their blood, just not the power to use their Hemalurgical abilities. (Like how a metal that used to have a Feruchemical storage in it cannot be used for Feruchemy unless it is refilled, but it can always be used for Allomancy via burning.)

This way, because Hemalurgists have the ability to tap into power stored within their blood, and they have Allomantic blood, they can always tap into their Allomancy, but it would still require burning metals to use Allomancy. (Of course, they may be able to just burn off the metals already in their bodies for the Hemalurgy. It then becomes competing resources, on if one would want to use the blood storages  for Allomantic or Hemalurgic purposes.) Then because the two systems draw from different sources, Hemalurgy from the reservoir within your blood or your blood itself, and Allomancy directly from the metal, they can be used in conjunction from one source of metal.  (And you could theoretically add in Feruchemy, letting you draw power from your own body, store it in the metals affecting your blood, and possibly burn those blood metals via Allomancy. I have no idea what benefit this would give you, but it shows all three systems working in tandem.)

And as for the organ conversation, I would agree on most of the organ choices, and Stomach would come to me first, but my question is on whether or not the piercing has to go through a specific organ in the sacrifice, in the Inquisitor to be, or both?

As for the pulses, I would assume that those are either a power of Hemalurgy, or a power of an Allomancy/Hemalurgy combination. Ruin could also just be using his probably Hemalurgy connection to make Vin "hear" the pulses in her mind. (And our newest beat box champion is . . . Ruin! Destroyer of Worlds!)

Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 11, 2008, 12:14:21 AM
I am curious, most people seem to take it as a given that using hemalurgy means burning blood. Do we have any evidence for this besides the fact that hema is latin for blood?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 11, 2008, 12:32:50 AM
hemaphobia is the fear of blood so i guess we're good
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on July 11, 2008, 12:33:33 AM
We have no hard evidence that Hemalurgy burns the blood away, but from the latin root, various quotes in the books about Hemalurgy being messy, and possibly including the fact that inquisitors have to rest often, it is most often assumed that Hemalurgy uses the blood in some manner. Whether or not the blood is actually burned up is something we don't really have enough information to pursue. (I think not, but I'm nowhere near sure.)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 11, 2008, 12:38:27 AM
What else could it be? I can't remember but it's in some thread where they break down all the magic systems name... It doesn't burn the blood per se, just uses it somehow.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on July 11, 2008, 12:43:48 AM
It could be like Feruchemy in a way, where it taps into a latent source within the blood, but does not actually consume the blood itself.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 11, 2008, 12:47:39 AM
thats what i just said on a different thread, i REALLY like that idea. :)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on July 11, 2008, 12:50:55 AM
It does seem to fit in quite well with my theory of Hemalurgy. By tapping into the latent abilities in the blood, one could use Allomancy and Feruchemy, (if those traits were in your blood,) not have to worry about killing yourself by using too much Hemalurgy, and satisfies Brandon's condition that each of the magic systems draws the power from a different source. (Hemalurgy = Blood, Feruchemy = stored traits from one's body, Allomancy = the metals themselves.)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 11, 2008, 12:54:33 AM
So hemalurgy accesses the blood, and the rest is what is needed to restore the abilities. It fits in oh so well, and we'll all know for sure as soon as oct 20 hits us on the head! :-\
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Phaz on July 11, 2008, 01:17:30 AM
I think the Hemalurgy connection to blood isn't as strong as the general consensus seems to think.

We know that originally, Brandon had the second system (now Feruchemy) originally called Hemalurgy.  I don't remember the exact wording (but I am sure someone can find it) but I think Brandon mentions something along the lines that he feels Hemalurgy fits a little better with the third system than the second, and then looks for a different name for the second.

I think the "Hema" reference could just be because it's a bloody process (which we now know for sure according to the prolog).

I don't think "Hema" implies that blood is a large part of the magic system.  It seems like if that was the case, he would of called it Hemalurgy from the beginning, rather than coming up with the name and using it for the second system.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 11, 2008, 01:25:48 AM
It fits so well thought!  :-X
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 11, 2008, 01:38:29 AM
The idea that hemalurgy actually burns the blood is in large part my fault, as it was my initial theory as seen on page 9 of this thread. That's the first time I recall seeing it anyway. Maybe I'm stealing credit from somewhere else. If so, please inform me. There were several others who either believed this or something similar to it, so we formed the backbone of what you see as a general consensus now. However, in light of information revealed since then, plus some problems with the way burning blood works, I think it's more likely that blood is just used in the process of gaining hemalurgy or is somehow used as a power source without burning it. Though, of course, it's all speculation, as we really don't know enough to prove anything.

As a side note, does anyone know what happened to Chaos and Vintage? I haven't seen them around for a while. We could use a few more crazy theorizers around here...Plus it's my experience that I come up with my best ideas when reading Chaos' posts....which is kind of wierd....oh well.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 11, 2008, 02:02:30 AM
lol thats what i was thinking, havent seen Vintage, Chaos, or Ookla in a while. And i defintely think Comatose=craziest theorizer ever!!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 11, 2008, 02:21:34 AM
Blood used in the process, but how do they do the magic? what are we missing...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on July 11, 2008, 04:48:40 AM
I am here, actually. It's just on 4th of July week I had to work Tuesday through Friday at my local foodstore where I work (which really sucked--darn people wanting to buy things for the holiday!). And the Saturday after that, I flew into Southern California where I am now for vacation. It turns out, my experience on Catalina Island gave me some time to go online. (Catalina Island is great; I recommend it for anyone!)

So, earlier today, I decided to check brandonsanderson.com, and wow. I was not expecting the Mistborn 3 prologue. Nor was I expecting the seven new pages of Hemalurgy posts, but I enjoyed reading them nonetheless. You certainly keep me on my toes when I am gone!

I've been absorbing information this current moment. Some theories are good... some not so good. However, I will go out of my way and say that the specific organ idea is fantastic. Definitely sheds some better light onto the magic system.

Aren't you glad I created this thread so we could all go mad with theories? :P

But! I must talk about one more thing in particular:

The idea that hemalurgy actually burns the blood is in large part my fault, as it was my initial theory as seen on page 9 of this thread. That's the first time I recall seeing it anyway. Maybe I'm stealing credit from somewhere else. If so, please inform me. There were several others who either believed this or something similar to it, so we formed the backbone of what you see as a general consensus now. However, in light of information revealed since then, plus some problems with the way burning blood works, I think it's more likely that blood is just used in the process of gaining hemalurgy or is somehow used as a power source without burning it. Though, of course, it's all speculation, as we really don't know enough to prove anything.

As a side note, does anyone know what happened to Chaos and Vintage? I haven't seen them around for a while. We could use a few more crazy theorizers around here...Plus it's my experience that I come up with my best ideas when reading Chaos' posts....which is kind of wierd....oh well.

I had a very, very similar theory, though mine was more vague. It was on page seven, though, so I will happily take all the credit for it. Also Andrew, this means the "stealing credit" is from me! Haha, just kidding. I'm also the "several others" who believed in this. And, clearly, as you so conveniently said, you get your best idea when reading my posts. :D

Definitely, definitely expect a large post from me around Sunday-ish. That'll be the day I get back from vacation, when I can really end my discussions in my brain about theories and come up with some cool stuff.

There's one thing I'd like elaborated upon: why a specific spike to a specific organ? I mean, why brass in one place over another? I need to reread the post where it was talked about, but if someone could explain it rationally, that would be great.

EDIT: Excuse me. I misinterpreted. Someone earlier merely stated which organs get pierced, not which metal pierced them. My mistake.

Though, someone should really combine that with Andrew's page 9 Hemalurgy theory. That one did a much better job than mine to explain which metal did which, and the logic behind it. Mine was much more "how it operates" sort of thing.

I really think if we can fuse all three theories together, we can get a very good approximation of how Hemalurgy works!

My theory of how it operates + Andrew's list of what metals are what + Organs.

Food for discussion, eh?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 11, 2008, 05:29:34 AM
There's one thing I'd like elaborated upon: why a specific spike to a specific organ? I mean, why brass in one place over another? I need to reread the post where it was talked about, but if someone could explain it rationally, that would be great.
I actually brought this particular thing up.  It wasn't very detailed though, just a fleeting thought.

Well, there was the thought of each organ giving an ability or something.  I just thought what if each spike was a certain metal.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 11, 2008, 09:26:10 AM
1 heart 2 lungs 1 pancreas 2 eyes 1 spine 2 kidney 1 stomach... forgot the other one... lol
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 11, 2008, 05:12:15 PM
Quote
lol thats what i was thinking, havent seen Vintage, Chaos, or Ookla in a while. And i defintely think Comatose=craziest theorizer ever!!

Why yes, yes indeed.

And I think kthe kidneys and stomach and intestines are too low down, I thought the lower spikes were all in the chest, but you guys are including the who torso.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 11, 2008, 06:35:55 PM
Quote
lol thats what i was thinking, havent seen Vintage, Chaos, or Ookla in a while. And i defintely think Comatose=craziest theorizer ever!!

Why yes, yes indeed.

And I think kthe kidneys and stomach and intestines are too low down, I thought the lower spikes were all in the chest, but you guys are including the who torso.
Well there are no other places in the upper torso that are vital organs.

My money is on the stomach.  It's still somewhat up there and the spike might stay in.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 11, 2008, 11:04:16 PM
maybe the metal symbols have something to do with the way the spikes pierce the body
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 11, 2008, 11:52:58 PM
Quote
lol thats what i was thinking, havent seen Vintage, Chaos, or Ookla in a while. And i defintely think Comatose=craziest theorizer ever!!

Why yes, yes indeed.

And I think kthe kidneys and stomach and intestines are too low down, I thought the lower spikes were all in the chest, but you guys are including the who torso.
Well there are no other places in the upper torso that are vital organs.

My money is on the stomach.  It's still somewhat up there and the spike might stay in.

Do inquisitors need to eat?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 12, 2008, 01:49:49 AM
Quote
lol thats what i was thinking, havent seen Vintage, Chaos, or Ookla in a while. And i defintely think Comatose=craziest theorizer ever!!

Why yes, yes indeed.

And I think kthe kidneys and stomach and intestines are too low down, I thought the lower spikes were all in the chest, but you guys are including the who torso.
Well there are no other places in the upper torso that are vital organs.

My money is on the stomach.  It's still somewhat up there and the spike might stay in.

Do inquisitors need to eat?
I do not believe it was ever mentioned if they had to or not.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 12, 2008, 01:50:56 AM
maybe the metal symbols have something to do with the way the spikes pierce the body
I don't think so.  Many of them have two spikes in them and there are only 11 spikes. . . . I don't think that would work.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 12, 2008, 02:07:47 AM
I think how the spikes are positioned will play some part, where in the upper torso could 7 other spikes go (i'm counting the one in the heart already)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 14, 2008, 12:10:31 AM
I'm pretty sure it clearly says "chest" though in the book, does anyone have the quote?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: happyman on July 14, 2008, 01:24:42 AM
One interesting note:

While rereading Mistborn 1 on Friday, I think it said that the spike connecting the eyes and the rest of the body was made out of steel.  It's during the showdown with TLR when Marsh destroys all the Inquisitors in Kredik Shaw.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 14, 2008, 01:43:49 AM
And the steel and ironlines point to the chest, where the spike goes through, to connect to the spike in the head.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 14, 2008, 03:32:43 PM
Ok, im continuing the conversation on using the mists from the Ruin and Preservation thread.

We know that Vin and possibly others can burn mists. This is supported by several quotes from the book and Sanderson, such as
Quote
While she was fighting him, she drew upon the mists somehow, burning them in place of metals.

Quote
That day, they (the mists) had fueled her Allomancy, giving her a strength they shouldn't have had.

Ok. we know she can burn mists. The second quote says it is Allomancy, but i do not believe that is proof it actually is Allomancy. Right now, she has no idea that hemalurgy even exists; all she knows is that she has a strange power and assumes it is Allomancy.

I have gone back and forth on whether i think it actually is Allomancy; at first i had thought hemalurgy, then andrew convinced me it was allomancy. Now i am back to hemalurgy. However, there are arguments both ways.

ALLOMANCY
-Vin tells us she thinks it is Allomancy
-Allomancers in the past were more powerful, perhaps because of this ability
-to use Allomancy you burn metals, perhaps burning mist is not too far different

HEMALURGY
-We know Vin has hemalurgy, to me it makes sense to connect the dots. She has a strange power no other Allomancer knows of...and hemalurgy is a strange power no one knows of.
-the effect of the mists being repelled is i believe explained by this theory. When a hemalurgist is burning mist, the mist around them has the effect of being repelled, although it is actually being burned. It would not make sense for Allomancers to attract mist when they burn it, because all modern Allomancers attract mist and they know nothing of burning it.

SOMETHING ELSE
-i think miyabi suggested that burning mist was actually a different power, unrelated to hemalurgy, feruchemy, or allomancy. To take a page from his book,
Quote
that theory has more holes than swiss cheese.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on July 14, 2008, 05:36:16 PM
I'm pretty sure it clearly says "chest" though in the book, does anyone have the quote?

MB1, p. 637
Quote
Marsh nodded.  "Two in the head, eight in the chest, one in the back to seal them together."

I agree that this is a major hole for the spike-per-organ theory.  I can't think of any organs in the chest except heart and lungs.  It's my understanding that in the MB3 prologue, the spike went through the VICTIM'S heart but not necessarily through the heart of the Inquisitor-in-the-making.  I don't know, though; we do know that the Inquisitors' eyes are replaced by spikes, so for consistency it might make sense for the same to be true of other organs.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 14, 2008, 06:36:24 PM
I'm pretty sure it clearly says "chest" though in the book, does anyone have the quote?

MB1, p. 637
Quote
Marsh nodded.  "Two in the head, eight in the chest, one in the back to seal them together."

I agree that this is a major hole for the spike-per-organ theory.  I can't think of any organs in the chest except heart and lungs.  It's my understanding that in the MB3 prologue, the spike went through the VICTIM'S heart but not necessarily through the heart of the Inquisitor-in-the-making.  I don't know, though; we do know that the Inquisitors' eyes are replaced by spikes, so for consistency it might make sense for the same to be true of other organs.
Yes yes, quite a conundrum I would say.  Perhaps they are simply set up in a pattern in the chest, but who knows for sure.  I have a feeling we will find out in the third book.

PS - Did anyone notice that MB1 = a lot of talking about Allomancy, MB2 = A lot of in depth about Feruchemy.  I think I see a pattern.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 14, 2008, 10:11:32 PM
perhaps the eight in the chest follow the pattern of a ribcage, with the one in the back running vertically like a spine?

also on an unrelated note, has anyone considered that there are Steel spikes in an Inquisitors eyes, and Steel allows them to 'see' allomantically. Also Vin's earring allows her to 'hear' the pulses of the well.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 15, 2008, 12:12:44 AM
perhaps the eight in the chest follow the pattern of a ribcage, with the one in the back running vertically like a spine?

also on an unrelated note, has anyone considered that there are Steel spikes in an Inquisitors eyes, and Steel allows them to 'see' allomantically. Also Vin's earring allows her to 'hear' the pulses of the well.
Yes yes, that has been talked about before.  BUT  the thing being. . . . Inquisitors have the same ability to 'hear' the pulses, BUT they don't have earrings.

I believe that they well thing is something that is unrelated to Hemalurgy.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 15, 2008, 01:41:54 AM
I believe one of the eyespikes is iron (they are different metals), which works with you theory, but the steel spike is in the spine.
AS for your hemalurgy burning mists theory Reaves, my major hole is this: Repelling and Burning the mist would look different.
1.  When Vin burns the mists in book one, they are swirling about her, not being repelled.
2.  If, the mists were vanishing as you suggest and not being repelled, that swirling patterns would simply stop, but if they are being repelled, the patterns would swirl away from them, continueing the pattern.  The characters, framiliar with the mists, would be able to notice this, and thus if the mists WERE vanishing, Elend would have said "The mists are vanishing around you Vin," and not, "I think you're repelling them."

Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on July 15, 2008, 04:59:10 AM
Quote
He stepped forward. Though he could no longer see as normal men did--after all, he had large steel spikes driven point-first through his eyes--he could sense the room around him.

From the Mistborn 3 Prologue, but it's mentioned in several places that the eye spikes are indeed Steel.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 15, 2008, 05:41:45 AM
I was sure they were iron, and during Sazed's fight with marsh, doesn't he remark that the eye spikes are of different metals?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 15, 2008, 06:04:55 AM
I was sure they were iron, and during Sazed's fight with marsh, doesn't he remark that the eye spikes are of different metals?
Yes, I believe he does.  I THINK that what's happening here is that one time they are perceived as Steel, but they are later seen closer and that reveals the truth behind them.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on July 15, 2008, 06:22:28 AM
I just looked it up. There is a mention of them being Iron Eyes, but nothing about them being different metals. :/
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 15, 2008, 06:53:42 AM
But the real question is what part do they play? They are both Iron, we know that brass is in the heart, now what about the other 7?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on July 15, 2008, 08:14:51 AM
But I believe they are actually made out of steel. Iron Eyes being a reference to Marsh's nickname.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 15, 2008, 10:11:10 AM
eh, whether they are iron or steel it matters not. both metals allow you to see allomantically

EDIT: actually, they are steel  ;)
check Czanos' quote above
Quote
He stepped forward. Though he could no longer see as normal men did--after all, he had large steel spikes driven point-first through his eyes--he could sense the room around him.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 15, 2008, 08:02:58 PM
And we don't know that the brass one goes through the inquisitors heart, only that it goes through the sacrifices heart, in the Inquisitor it could be positioned anywhere!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on July 15, 2008, 09:41:29 PM
Steel and Brass. We don't really know what other metals are used to make inquisitors, do we? Sazed mentions that different metals are used, but not which ones.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 16, 2008, 01:27:19 AM
a Brass spike and a feruchemist sacrifice, Brass stores warmth in feruchemy right, guess the old theory about a spike per power goes out the window doesn't it, well perhaps there is still a spike per power, just different ones than the sacrifice has, I can;t see inquisitors wasteing a full sacrifice on warmth!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on July 16, 2008, 02:58:33 AM
I still think it could be one spike per power, or even a couple spikes for a power, but I agree that they're prolly not stealing powers from Feruchemists.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 16, 2008, 03:10:48 AM
Then the question is, why use feruchmists?  What's the benefit??
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Phaz on July 16, 2008, 06:22:12 AM
Then the question is, why use feruchmists?  What's the benefit??

Based on the "hemalurgy is stealing power" theory I think feruchemists make lots of sense.   If using (Skaa) alomancers steals the alomancy power, then it makes sense that using feruchmests would mean that it steals their power and gives it to the inquisitor.  That would make some pretty bad ass inquisitors.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 16, 2008, 08:30:27 AM
Quote
The spike would need to pierce the man's body, passing through the heart, then be driven into the body of the Inquisitor tied below

It doesn't say it has to be in the heart, but do they drive it through the heart because of the amount of blood that would be there? Could the spike actually be working as the vessel that carries the blood into the other person's body?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 16, 2008, 07:42:25 PM
Wow, lots of activity around here! That's what I get for not posting for a few days...

I agree, the brass spike and a feruchemial sacrifice doesn't make much sense. So why use a feruchemist? Because you have him. I don't think the sacrifice needs to have any specific powers. The inquisitors just had the feruchemist around because they had been questioning him. Then, when they were done, they used him as a sacrifice.

And I still think that the significance of the spike through the sacrifice's heart is that all of the spikes must go through the sacrifice's heart. Meaning you would need several sacrifices. And I don't think it has to go into the inquisitor's heart, either, just into his chest.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 16, 2008, 08:00:32 PM
Or his eyes.

Quote from Phaz
Quote
Based on the "hemalurgy is stealing power" theory I think feruchemists make lots of sense.   If using (Skaa) alomancers steals the alomancy power, then it makes sense that using feruchmests would mean that it steals their power and gives it to the inquisitor.  That would make some pretty bad ass inquisitors.

But the  sacrifice per power per spike doesn't work here, since they were using a BRASS spike, which in feruchmey stores warmth, what would the inquisitors need with that power, why waste a valuable feruchmist sacrifice on warmth, when there are other more potent powers, like strength or speed, or healing.
Eventhought they captured the entire Synod, if they need multiple sacrifices per inquisitor, they're not going to get many new inquisitors if they make a sacrifice for every feruchemical power, remember, Feruchemists are very rare because of the breeding programs.  I don't think the spike per power theory applies.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 16, 2008, 08:31:19 PM
What if the Hemalurgic property of brass is completely different from both Allomancy's and Feruchemy's use of it? They have some of the same powers of Allomancer but also Feruchemy, or it appears that way. Brass is warmth for Feruchemy and Rioting for Allomancy. Is it too far out to say that Hemalurgy uses it differently?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 16, 2008, 08:46:48 PM
What if the Hemalurgic property of brass is completely different from both Allomancy's and Feruchemy's use of it? They have some of the same powers of Allomancer but also Feruchemy, or it appears that way. Brass is warmth for Feruchemy and Rioting for Allomancy. Is it too far out to say that Hemalurgy uses it differently?

i would find it highly unusual if it wasn't different. I suspect the three systems have some metals in common, such as pewter for strength and tin for things such as eyesight or hearing, but i would assume they are all equally symmetrical in most things.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 16, 2008, 10:18:05 PM
If the powers don't change no matter who the sacrifice though, then why go throught the effort to use feruchemists, why not jsut use all teh slaves they have lying around at the conventicle?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on July 16, 2008, 10:21:13 PM
If the powers don't change no matter who the sacrifice though, then why go throught the effort to use feruchemists, why not jsut use all teh slaves they have lying around at the conventicle?

They probably did use those slaves, already - weren't they discovered brutally slaughtered?  I'm not sure, I don't have my copy with me.

In any event, I agree that there's some significance to using a feruchemist (beyond that just being who they had available) though I don't know what that significance might be.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 16, 2008, 10:23:36 PM
The were slaughtered but not in the way that they were sacrificed, remember,Kelsier remarks in book one when they come to the scene where Marsh was "created" that it was messy, even for the inquisitors.  Sazed pays very close attention to detail, if the slaves had been used as sacrifices, there would have been hints, not just: they were slaughtered or even, they were horribly slaughtered.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on July 16, 2008, 11:56:50 PM
So, knowing that I don't know what the different metals mean, what if the spike goes through the heart of the sacrifice, effectively taking their life energy and giving it to the inquisitor. Mistings are mistings and not mistborn because they don't have enough power, or enough of the right kind of blood, as it were.

So by taking the life energy from someone else, they increase in power from a misting to an allomancer, and then to have such power that they can simulate drawing on the mists, even though they can't; they're using the extra life put into them, which they regain by resting. It's that extra life that allows them to heal so quickly and such.

Meaning that Hemalurgy is kind of a vampiric process of combining life energies (at least the 8 for the chest) to make Super-beings. The different metals showing how the different lives sustain the inquisitor, or augment the abilities he already has. They get the full powers of a mistborn because they already have part, and the increase power gives them it in full.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 17, 2008, 02:22:13 AM
That's interesting, and I like it.  They use seekers because they are already mistings, and then they sacrifice more mistings, and give the inquisitors a boost up to full mistborn!  And in Alendi's day, the piercing made him more copetent, even if he didn't notice it, he didn't have spikes, he had piercings, so it was just slight.  But what was used as sacrifice, for Alendi's meager power boost, did goats or something suffice.
There's holes, but I really really like this theory!  Maybe this is why Vin is so powerful?  Who knows, but here's a thought, what if KAndra or Koloss were used as sacrifices?  I wonder what would happen then?
Oh, and the Koloss's nails, perhaps to the Lord Ruler used Hemalurgy to create them, maybe.
I really really like this theory, good job Qarlin!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on July 17, 2008, 02:25:17 AM
Thanks. :D

Vin's power boost is not so meager, but then, she prolly started with more than most Inquisitors, too.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 17, 2008, 02:28:36 AM
It's true, but maybe the earring just boosts her bronze, and there are other explanations for her other allomatic abilities being so powerful, I don't think she should be able to replicate what the inquisitors get with 11 spikes, with one earring.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on July 17, 2008, 07:06:57 PM
Yeah, but she's not as powerful as inquisitors, either. Is it an older sister that died? Younger? Twin?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on July 17, 2008, 08:27:58 PM
I'm pretty sure Vin's sister was younger.  I was looking for the reference when I noticed this:

MB1, p.206
Quote
One, Vin noticed in a moment of shock, had been Ulef.  The boy's face was contorted and pained, the front of his chest a mass of broken bones and ripped flesh - as if someone had forcibly torn the ribcage apart with his hands.

And a couple pages later, p.208
Quote
there was only a single corpse tied to a chair.  In the weak light she could barely make out that his eyes had been gouged out.

These sound like they could be related to Hemalurgical sacrifices.  As far as I know, neither Ulef nor Milev were Allomancers or Feruchemists.  Does this advance our discussion at all?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 17, 2008, 08:32:22 PM
Perhaps it has something to do with information getting, maybe they were able to tear the information out using hemalurgy??
Your right, it is similar to the ritual.  Good Find  :)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 17, 2008, 08:44:19 PM
eh, im pretty sure its just a gruesome description of what the Steel Ministry is capable of. I mean, you hardly need hemalurgy to tear information out of someone when that same someone has just seen his best friend's ribcage ripped apart??
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 17, 2008, 08:46:48 PM
Also true, we know the inquisitors are violent, and methinks have your rib cage torn apart would look differently then having a spike punched through? No?
And Vin's sister was younger, she was a baby.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on July 17, 2008, 08:53:01 PM
Also true, we know the inquisitors are violent, and methinks have your rib cage torn apart would look differently then having a spike punched through? No?

Yes, but I was thinking maybe they extract the organs (heart from one, eyes from another) and bring them somewhere else to perform the ceremony.  Clearly, it would either be a different type of ceremony or a different part of the ceremony than the part we saw in the MB3 prologue.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on July 17, 2008, 09:31:55 PM
Well, we don't know if her sister was a misting, so since her mom was a prostitute, it's possible that her sister wasn't at all, meaning that Hemalurgy doesn't require mistings, so Inquisitors may not require them either. As a thought.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 17, 2008, 10:21:34 PM
How do we know Vin's sister was not from the same father of Vin?
And why didn't Tevidan kill her?  Why did he let Vin's mother live, what hold did she have over him.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 17, 2008, 11:01:45 PM
i don't think she had any kind of hold on him, he was just careless. Or if she actually was a hemalurgist as some suggest she may have escaped the men he sent to kill her.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on July 17, 2008, 11:06:00 PM
How do we know Vin's sister was not from the same father of Vin?
We don't know.  She could have been from the same father.  Reen, however, had a different father, since he was her half-brother.

And why didn't Tevidan kill her?  Why did he let Vin's mother live, what hold did she have over him.
Excellent question.  Love?  Not likely, he was a pretty cold guy, although it's possible that in the past he had more of a heart.  Lust?  Perhaps, although I would think she'd have to be pretty special if he preferred her favors over all the other prostitutes enough to risk his life to keep her alive.

Maybe she was simply able to escape him somehow, hide from him (with her daughters).  He wouldn't have wanted to get help from very many of the fellow obligators or Inquisitors, at least not once he'd already failed to prevent her from bearing his daughter(s).

Maybe he just didn't believe very strongly in TLR's restrictions on breeding.  Maybe he was just careless, didn't realize he had impregnated her, and didn't want to go to the bother of tracking her down to have her killed.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 17, 2008, 11:28:51 PM
Well, we know he didn't know about his daughters (and I looked it up, Vin says it was her half sister), because he is surprised to see Vin, and I thought Vin says  that her father never knew.
As for why her mother got away, I don't think carelessness was it, Tevidan was the Lord Prelan, and you don't get to his position by being careless methinks.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on July 18, 2008, 02:37:17 AM
Perhaps it was a setup.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 18, 2008, 05:50:43 AM
Maybe the mother was working with the inquisitors from the get go, and that's why she had hemalurgy, so the could keep tabs on her or whatever, and the Inquisitors set it up so that she would have kids, then wait for the appropriate time, and spring Vin on the lord ruler, and get him sacked, only Reen messed up their plans by taking Vin and running
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 18, 2008, 07:02:32 AM
Did Ruin control the Inquisitors, or did they just hate TLR?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on July 18, 2008, 08:17:41 PM
I don't think they hated LTR; they seemed to recognize his power. Also, Ruin wasn't in control of them, or Marsh would have noticed it earlier, I think.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 18, 2008, 10:05:33 PM
Indeed, they love and revere the Lord Ruler (or perhaps the perservation he stands for), But it appears when Ruin is freed and he becomes more powerful, the inquisitors answer to him, and lose thier free will in the process.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on July 18, 2008, 10:43:40 PM
And that makes me wonder if any of the other Inquisitors are fighting to break free.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 19, 2008, 07:58:06 AM
And that makes me wonder if any of the other Inquisitors are fighting to break free.

Marsh is!! Or was... Won't know for sure until HoA...
As for Vin's mom working with the Inquisitors I don't know it just seems like it wouldn't be. Also I still don't believe they need misting sacrifices, and if that scene with Ulef is what happens then we know they don't.  I think that they used the hemalurgic process to torture the Terrisman... Wait. Doesn't it say somewhere that when Inquisitors feel emotion they feel pain? Maybe that's a part in creating an Inquisitor, causing a certain pain and linking it with a certain emotion. I seem to recall that different emotions cause a different pain, but I could just be tired.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on July 19, 2008, 09:19:47 AM
I know Marsh is, that's why I asked about the other inquisitors.  :P

And the spikes do throb, and it changes with their emotions, and it is a painful throb. Marsh mentions it at the end of Final Empire (pg 532)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 19, 2008, 09:47:53 AM
Hmmm Painful throb with emotions. Sounds like something we need to look more into.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: GreenMonsta on July 19, 2008, 04:39:51 PM
Ok so ive read a decent amount about Hemalurgy what it actually is still seems to evade me. i understand that the reality of what it is is still un-known, but if someone could give me the best guess so i have somewhere do go from when the topic comes up i would apreciate it. it apparently has to do with blood and projecting voices into peoples minds. if im missing something please help me out because im lost.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 19, 2008, 05:51:06 PM
Quote
Hmmm Painful throb with emotions. Sounds like something we need to look more into.


So what if you rioted all of their emotions with durulium, would they be overwhelmed with pain.  Methinks this is a new way to best an inquisitor!
Also Zane says the pain of cutting himself weakens God's voice, so by overwhelming the inqisitors with pain, or putting them through a lot of it, could you free them from Ruin's influence?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 19, 2008, 09:02:55 PM
So what if you rioted all of their emotions with durulium, would they be overwhelmed with pain.  Methinks this is a new way to best an inquisitor!
Also Zane says the pain of cutting himself weakens God's voice, so by overwhelming the inqisitors with pain, or putting them through a lot of it, could you free them from Ruin's influence?

I like the Rioting idea! I like both ideas!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 19, 2008, 11:54:59 PM
Ok so ive read a decent amount about Hemalurgy what it actually is still seems to evade me. i understand that the reality of what it is is still un-known, but if someone could give me the best guess so i have somewhere do go from when the topic comes up i would apreciate it. it apparently has to do with blood and projecting voices into peoples minds. if im missing something please help me out because im lost.

best answer? we have no idea. Most of us have our little pet theories but none of them is incontrovertible proof of anything.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on July 23, 2008, 04:53:02 PM
I don't know if anyone is still interested in the discussion from last week and last page about why Tevidian let Vin's mom go, but I found a pertinent quote:

MB 1, p. 604
Quote
“Tell me truthfully, Tevidian,” the Lord Ruler said, walking slowly toward the obligator.  “Have you ever bedded a skaa woman?”
   The obligator paused.  “I followed the law!  Each time, I had them slain afterward.”
   “You … lie,” the Lord Ruler said, as if surprised.  “You’re uncertain.”
   Tevidian was visibly shaking.  “I … I think I got them all, my lord.  There … there was one I may have been too lax with.  I didn’t know she was skaa at first.  The soldier I sent to kill her was too lenient, and he let her go.  But I found her, eventually.”
   “Tell me,” the Lord Ruler said.  “Did this woman bear any children?”
   The room fell silent.
   “Yes, my lord,” the high prelan said.

So this tells us that:
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 23, 2008, 05:26:09 PM
I don't know if anyone is still interested in the discussion from last week and last page about why Tevidian let Vin's mom go, but I found a pertinent quote:

MB 1, p. 604
Quote
“Tell me truthfully, Tevidian,” the Lord Ruler said, walking slowly toward the oblicator.  “Have you ever bedded a skaa woman?”
   The obligator paused.  “I followed the law!  Each time, I had them slain afterward.”
   “You … lie,” the Lord Ruler said, as if surprised.  “You’re uncertain.”
   Tevidian was visibly shaking.  “I … I think I got them all, my lord.  There … there was one I may have been too lax with.  I didn’t know she was skaa at first.  The soldier I sent to kill her was too lenient, and he let her go.  But I found her, eventually.”
   “Tell me,” the Lord Ruler said.  “Did this woman bear any children?”
   The room fell silent.
   “Yes, my lord,” the high prelan said.

So this tells us that:
  • Tevidian didn't know at first that Vin's mother was skaa
  • Vin's mother convinced the soldier sent to kill her, not to do so (possibly through Hemalurgy?  Or Soothing?)
  • Tevidian eventually found (and presumably killed?) Vin's mom, presumably after the earring incident, when Reen and Vin left
  • Tevidian DID know about Vin's existence, presumably right before he killed her
Thanks this is great.  I think Tevidian did kill Vin's mom.  I don't believe she would be important to the story, except for her granting Vin with Hemalurgic powers.

This also adds to the mounting evidence that Vin's mom was more than just Skaa and had some power of some kind.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on July 23, 2008, 11:27:43 PM
I don't know if anyone is still interested in the discussion from last week and last page about why Tevidian let Vin's mom go, but I found a pertinent quote:

MB 1, p. 604
Quote
“Tell me truthfully, Tevidian,” the Lord Ruler said, walking slowly toward the obligator.  “Have you ever bedded a skaa woman?”
   The obligator paused.  “I followed the law!  Each time, I had them slain afterward.”
   “You … lie,” the Lord Ruler said, as if surprised.  “You’re uncertain.”
   Tevidian was visibly shaking.  “I … I think I got them all, my lord.  There … there was one I may have been too lax with.  I didn’t know she was skaa at first.  The soldier I sent to kill her was too lenient, and he let her go.  But I found her, eventually.”
   “Tell me,” the Lord Ruler said.  “Did this woman bear any children?”
   The room fell silent.
   “Yes, my lord,” the high prelan said.

So this tells us that:
  • Tevidian didn't know at first that Vin's mother was skaa
  • Vin's mother convinced the soldier sent to kill her, not to do so (possibly through Hemalurgy?  Or Soothing?)
  • Tevidian eventually found (and presumably killed?) Vin's mom, presumably after the earring incident, when Reen and Vin left
  • Tevidian DID know about Vin's existence, presumably her mother told him right before he killed her

Not only those but Vin's mom probably was part of a scam on a nobleman, that's why Tevidian didn't think she was skaa! Is it possible that one of Kell's crew could have known her?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on July 24, 2008, 12:25:47 AM
Something I noticed about Hemalurgy while reading through Mistborn: The Final Empire again.

On page 540-541 the book states . . .
Quote
Kelsier stumbled into the room.Vin followed, but she knew
what she’d see. The corpse lay near the center of the chamber,
flayed and dismembered, the head completely crushed. It was
barely recognizable as human. The walls were sprayed red.

Now, we know this was where Marsh was supposed to meet Kelsier, and that the Inquisitors got to Marsh and "recruited" him. Could it be that this corpse was the sacrifice used for Marsh? There was a lot of blood involved in this death, and the skull was crushed like what I'd assume would happen when one had two steel spikes driven through you into someone beneath you. The dismembering could have included the skull, perhaps, as a spike was driven through your spine. . .

The point of this is, I think when making an inquisitor, the spikes have to go through the sacrifice in the same spot as in the Inquisitor. So the brass spike of an inquisitor goes through the heart, another spike (I think it's steel) goes through the spine, and two steel spikes go through the eyes. Also, there's no spike in the stomach. Kell punched the Inquisitor there during his fight, and he would have felt the metal.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 24, 2008, 02:38:32 AM
i think most of us assumed it actually was one of Marsh's sacrifices, although the crushed skull is a good find.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on July 24, 2008, 03:17:12 AM
Ah, as I was reading later, in the Epilogue Marsh confirms it was indeed "one of the" sacrifices. I assume it was at least the eye spike sacrifice, maybe more. . .
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 24, 2008, 04:34:17 AM
Ah, as I was reading later, in the Epilogue Marsh confirms it was indeed "one of the" sacrifices. I assume it was at least the eye spike sacrifice, maybe more. . .
If you look back through this thread we talk a LOT about how many sacrifices it might take in order to create an inquisitor.  We've discusses everywhere from 1-11.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on July 24, 2008, 04:37:33 AM
I was aware of that, and I was putting forth that quote as a fact supporting more than one sacrifice.

I'm now thinking three sacrifices, myself. One for the chest group, one for the head group, one for the linchpin.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on July 24, 2008, 03:53:13 PM
MB1, p.638
Quote
"If I may ask, Master Marsh," Sazed said, "Who was that corpse that Mistress Vin and Master Kelsier discovered at the Soothing station?"
Marsh looked back over the city.  "There were several corpses, actually.  The process to create a new Inquisitor is ... messy.  I'd rather not speak about it."

You may be right about the three sacrifices, Czanos, although usually I think of the word "several" meaning at least four.  However, there can't have been too many sacrifices, or Vin and Kelsier wouldn't have thought it was just one corpse.  For instance, I can't imagine 8 corpses, however dismembered, being mistaken for the remains of one man.

What I don't get is why the Inquisitors make Marsh into a new Inquisitor right there in the Soothing station.  Wouldn't it be hard to tie the live victims in place properly?  And if they can do it anywhere, then why do they need the special table described in the MB3 prologue?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 24, 2008, 04:23:04 PM
MB1, p.638
Quote
"If I may ask, Master Marsh," Sazed said, "Who was that corpse that Mistress Vin and Master Kelsier discovered at the Soothing station?"
Marsh looked back over the city.  "There were several corpses, actually.  The process to create a new Inquisitor is ... messy.  I'd rather not speak about it."

You may be right about the three sacrifices, Czanos, although usually I think of the word "several" meaning at least four.  However, there can't have been too many sacrifices, or Vin and Kelsier wouldn't have thought it was just one corpse.  For instance, I can't imagine 8 corpses, however dismembered, being mistaken for the remains of one man.

What I don't get is why the Inquisitors make Marsh into a new Inquisitor right there in the Soothing station.  Wouldn't it be hard to tie the live victims in place properly?  And if they can do it anywhere, then why do they need the special table described in the MB3 prologue?
Well they find the table's in WoA.  I'm just assuming that those tables are what is generally used, because they make it easier and they keep them at the Synod, there home and this was just one of those we need to do it now, don't worry about making it easy, let's just do it.  So basically I think the tables just make it easier.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 24, 2008, 04:33:29 PM
Do we know of  any reason the Inquisitors would especially want Marsh in their ranks? That always seemed kind of rushed to me, they didn't really do a thorough backround check or anything like that just grabbed him, inadvertently allowing him to infiltrate them. Now we see that even his full induction was rushed; they didn't even bother to bring him back to Kredik Shaw, just used what was there.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 24, 2008, 04:50:06 PM
Do we know of  any reason the Inquisitors would especially want Marsh in their ranks? That always seemed kind of rushed to me, they didn't really do a thorough backround check or anything like that just grabbed him, inadvertently allowing him to infiltrate them. Now we see that even his full induction was rushed; they didn't even bother to bring him back to Kredik Shaw, just used what was there.
They say he was a good actor and good at what he did.  He could simply have been such an amazing prospect they didn't care about his background or care to wait for him.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on July 24, 2008, 04:51:38 PM
Do we know of  any reason the Inquisitors would especially want Marsh in their ranks? That always seemed kind of rushed to me, they didn't really do a thorough backround check or anything like that just grabbed him, inadvertently allowing him to infiltrate them. Now we see that even his full induction was rushed; they didn't even bother to bring him back to Kredik Shaw, just used what was there.
They say he was a good actor and good at what he did.  He could simply have been such an amazing prospect they didn't care about his background or care to wait for him.

Or maybe it was another of Ruin's plots...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 24, 2008, 05:32:29 PM
Do we know of  any reason the Inquisitors would especially want Marsh in their ranks? That always seemed kind of rushed to me, they didn't really do a thorough backround check or anything like that just grabbed him, inadvertently allowing him to infiltrate them. Now we see that even his full induction was rushed; they didn't even bother to bring him back to Kredik Shaw, just used what was there.
They say he was a good actor and good at what he did.  He could simply have been such an amazing prospect they didn't care about his background or care to wait for him.

Or maybe it was another of Ruin's plots...
Potentially, but don't you think that Ruin would have seen that Marsh would have had a lot of resistance against him before making him into an inquisitor?  Wouldn't he just want to kill Marsh?  Or was that what makes him desire to control Marsh?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on July 24, 2008, 05:45:37 PM
Potentially, but don't you think that Ruin would have seen that Marsh would have had a lot of resistance against him before making him into an inquisitor?  Wouldn't he just want to kill Marsh?  Or was that what makes him desire to control Marsh?

Well, once he did get control of Marsh, he had a tool that the opposition trusted (at least for awhile).  It's like turning a spy.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 24, 2008, 05:50:22 PM
Potentially, but don't you think that Ruin would have seen that Marsh would have had a lot of resistance against him before making him into an inquisitor?  Wouldn't he just want to kill Marsh?  Or was that what makes him desire to control Marsh?

Well, once he did get control of Marsh, he had a tool that the opposition trusted (at least for awhile).  It's like turning a spy.
Yes, but my only concern is why would you take on something that could resist you and potentially pose a threat to you?  Is Ruin REALLY that desperate for some kind of attachment to the physical world?  If that is the case then my earlier theory about the thing Ruin needing being some way to gain a physical form would again have more substantiated proof here.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: GreenMonsta on July 24, 2008, 07:11:15 PM
i dont think Ruin would view it that way. he seems to have control over alot of what happens in this world. to maintain his goal he would have to think like a leader and make calculated risks. ok so Marsh gave the goodguys the way to kill the inquisitors, boo hoo. Ruin just made a bunch more inquisitors so that it wouldnt matter if they knew how to kill them they would still have to accomplish it. Ruin had plenty to gain from the situation and how much could he really loose. he could gain limitless info on the person who would release him and their team of supporters. he didnt care about luthandel or the armies or anything, exepct for Vin. all he wanted was for her to make it to the well and that wouldnt have happened with the Lord Ruler in power. so Ruin allowed Marsh to become an inquisitor therfore helping to over throw the Lord Ruler and gaining access to the WoA. after Vin entered the WoA tunnels he turned Marsh and attempted to stop Sazed from getting to Vin. it seems that Ruin used Marsh in the best way available.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on July 28, 2008, 08:57:15 PM
Maybe the inquisitors wanted Marsh because he was a seeker, it hints that inquisitors are seekers before they become inquisitors, and them picking marsh certainly suggests this.  He would be the perfect candidate really, extremely dedicated and hard working, and a seeker to boot!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 28, 2008, 09:23:55 PM
Maybe the inquisitors wanted Marsh because he was a seeker, it hints that inquisitors are seekers before they become inquisitors, and them picking marsh certainly suggests this.  He would be the perfect candidate really, extremely dedicated and hard working, and a seeker to boot!

i am pretty sure this was just a coincidence. All the inquisitors Kelsier knew had been seekers, but seriously. There are only twenty. How many could he have known...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: GreenMonsta on July 29, 2008, 01:03:10 AM
thats a valid point, you also have to look at things now. Marsh mayhave been looked at by the inquisitors because he was a seeker but it probably wasnt necessary. it was kinda like the sweet feature that caught your eye in that new purchase. it wasnt needed but it helped. i mean there have obviously been some inquisitor movements and signs of  more inquisitors being created so i dought it was the decidingly necessary factor.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Time and Again on July 30, 2008, 02:40:50 AM
Have we decided if being able to burn a metal via allomancy allows you to be extra powerful when combined with hermguraly(sp?) or if hermguraly(misspelled) itself is just that powerful? If so then Marsh should have seen an ability not unlike Vins for piercing coppercoulds. Or as previously stated all inquisitors have the power and therefore it doesnt matter.

I feel that the spikes hold a key to the power shown in inquisitors. The two in the eyes I'm sure are Steel as they are called steel inquisitors and I believe as I"m sure most of us do, they see with steel lines of an allomancer burning steel. That brings the grand total of unknown spikes to 9 (as they start with 11). I'm sure they use 7 of those are connected via the last 7 basic metals. Another (if we follow this line of thought) would be atium, making a dead inquisitor worth some money. That leaves one. Which one is it though. Gold; useless. Aluminum; useless. Durilumium; could be useless if the power of "Blood Allomancey" is to be as good as expected they wouldn't needed. So what is it? Don't we still have two unknown metals. Gold's offbrand along with atiums.

All of the above could just be repeated, as I've been away from forums for awhile. If so just ignore it.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on July 30, 2008, 08:54:54 AM
I believe that the most widely accepted version of events is that Inquisitors use Allomancy, (Proven in the Hero of Ages Prologue) and that their Allomancy is either just naturally very potent (Perhaps because they consumed the metal at the end of Well of Ascension.) or that using Hemalurgy somehow has the power to enhance Allomancy.

The spikes are also definitely something to do with an Inquisitor's Hemalurgy, and most believe that a piercing of any kind can be used Hemalurgically, if the right conditions are met. As for the spikes, the two eye spikes are indeed made of steel, and the one in the heart is made of brass. (Zane also had a spike through his heart, but I don't know what it was made out of. I'd assume it was made of brass as well, but the book never says . . . ) Then the spike in the spine is made of steel, (as per the end of The Final Empire.) so the unknown spikes in an inquisitor are down to seven.

As for myself, I'd believe that the spike setup is two steel spikes through the eyes, one steel spike in the spine, and one of each of the basic Allomantic metals for the chest. The next question I have though, is why separating the top spikes from the bottom spikes kills an Inquisitor. We know from Zane that one can survive with just one spike through the heart, and I'm inclined to believe that the Inquisitor on the receiving end of the Hemalurgic ritual in the prologue of Hero of Ages had eye spikes, if just because of the wording. What is so important about that final spike?

Oh, and as a side note, I'm pretty sure Zane shows us it's possible to use Hemalurgy without knowing it, but that could just be because he's a little addled.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on July 30, 2008, 07:01:29 PM
Oh, and as a side note, I'm pretty sure Zane shows us it's possible to use Hemalurgy without knowing it, but that could just be because he's a little addled.

Well, he THINKS he's addled, anyway.  God tells him right before he dies that he never was insane.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 30, 2008, 07:16:10 PM
oh im pretty sure he is addled. He has scars all over his arms, he has a voice in his head. He thinks he is crazy.
That probably drove him mad years ago.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Time and Again on July 31, 2008, 02:52:18 AM
I'm sure with Ruin in his head, it was easy to do some Blood Allomancey, as it seems that all allomancey in some way comes back to him. I'm sure Ruin knows every last secret there is to know about all metal based magic. I'm also sure with that little descretion in his past it would be easy for Zane to block it out or have Ruin not let him remember it (I'm not sure how much control he has over the people who's head he's in). I always thought that the spike with which you were impaled for the Hemalurgy Ritual enhanced your ability with that metal. Which would explain the power in all inquisitors and Vin's coppercloud piercing ability. This same theory led me to believe the spike in Zane was steel as he should increadable control with that metal.

Also I know we are not sure how Ruin is speaking in people's heads but we know it does have somthing to do with Hemalurgy. I assume it was the piercings, the bits of metal in people's bodies. But this doesn't explain why Ruin seems to have full control over the inquisitors, but not Vin or Zane. The only difference in these cases are the amount of metal used in the Hemalurgy process. The inquisitors have 11 spikes each about 14 cubic inchs (3in diameter cone about 6in long = about 14 cubic inches). That's alot of metal. Zane seemed to have a spear tip in his chest, leaving nubs on both sides. I didn't bother to figure that up but with about a half inch diameter with another 6in for length leaves you with about 1.5 cubic inches in his body. So that seems to be enough to talk in some one's head, but with vin you just have 1/8 inch of a earing which has about the diameter of a pin.. hardly anything. Would that be enough to have any conection? Could Ruin see inside Vin's head? Influence her emotions? Or can Vin possiably see inside his/it/her? Could she turn the tables back if possiable? use her ever so slight connection to gain an advantage for her eventual battle with Ruin?

This is all speculation though..
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: GreenMonsta on July 31, 2008, 03:42:33 AM
ok that sounds like it makes alot of sense. i could understand that the metal used for the peircing would amplify the allomancers power but i still dont understand why a peircing in general would allow Ruin any control with hemalurgy. i wont get that until i read it so im ok with it. i also would tend to believe that if (more likely than not) the peircings allow Ruin any measure of control than the size could be a major player in the amount of control.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Time and Again on July 31, 2008, 03:51:14 AM
I also don't understand why he seems to get this control. But the only connection between the inquisitors and zane is hemalugry.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 31, 2008, 04:57:19 AM
I also don't understand why he seems to get this control. But the only connection between the inquisitors and zane is hemalugry.
Which would once again link Hemalurgy to Ruin, Feruchemy to Preservation, and leave Allomancy in some middle ground.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on July 31, 2008, 05:45:04 AM
As far as I know, Feruchemy has never been linked to Preservation.  As a matter of fact, I'd say Allomancy is more opposite of Hemalurgy, and the fact that the Mist Spirit uses Allomancy points to Preservation being linked to Allomancy instead of Feruchemy.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on July 31, 2008, 03:24:47 PM
i think its time we all gave ourselves a pat on the back for reaching page 30.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on July 31, 2008, 05:17:30 PM
As far as I know, Feruchemy has never been linked to Preservation.  As a matter of fact, I'd say Allomancy is more opposite of Hemalurgy, and the fact that the Mist Spirit uses Allomancy points to Preservation being linked to Allomancy instead of Feruchemy.
It's talked about quite a bit off and on in the Ruin and Preservation thread about why it would be that way.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: GreenMonsta on August 02, 2008, 12:28:22 AM
even though the topic may have been covered in another thread, i find it more likely that Preservation is linked to Allomancy. Mainly due to the fact that it has been show that the mist spirit can use Allomancy and Ruin as of yet cannot. Feruchemy on the other hand seems like it may ba able to be traced to the Terris Worldbringers. im aware there is no mention of this difinitively in the books but for some reason i find the Worldbringers and the Keepers to be along a similar line. i wouldnt be surprised if Feruchemy was around before the ascention, if this were true than it would leave none of the known powers were created by the Lord Ruler.

I kinda just came to that while i was writing but i think it makes sense. If Preservation can use Allomacy and Ruin Hermalurgy and both bodies existed before the ascention then so probably did the powers they used. And if it turns out Feruchemy is just an evolved version of what the World Bringers had than that would place all of the known powers in existance before the Lord Ruler.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 02, 2008, 03:59:10 AM
We should move this to the Ruin/Pres thread, but the main argument for Feruchemy for preservation is that they attain the ability to attain and store things for later use, which seems VERY MUCH like preservation.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: GreenMonsta on August 02, 2008, 06:04:01 AM
Agreed, I often dont know how to move to a differnt thread. How do you take an active conversation from one thread and move it to another? A lot of the conversation is included in the ability to scroll back and read how it began. Not criticizing just asking due to lack of expirience. :)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on August 02, 2008, 06:40:58 AM
It's sort of haphazard, GreenMonsta. There isn't a real option to move a conversation to a different (I really wish there was), you just need to do a lot of quoting.

There's a lot for me to comment on this thread. I think I'll just comment on this one, though:

Do we know of  any reason the Inquisitors would especially want Marsh in their ranks? That always seemed kind of rushed to me, they didn't really do a thorough backround check or anything like that just grabbed him, inadvertently allowing him to infiltrate them. Now we see that even his full induction was rushed; they didn't even bother to bring him back to Kredik Shaw, just used what was there.
They say he was a good actor and good at what he did.  He could simply have been such an amazing prospect they didn't care about his background or care to wait for him.

Or maybe it was another of Ruin's plots...

I do not believe Marsh's induction into the Inquisitors was a devious plot by Ruin. In fact, I am steadfastly convinced Ruin did not have any ability to influence the world while the Lord Ruler was alive. The Lord Ruler said "You don't know what I do for mankind". I take this to mean he is keeping Ruin at bay, so that the Deepness would not return. From what I've seen, there is no evidence in MB1 that suggests Ruin did have any power for devious plotting. The way I see it, whatever it is the Lord Ruler was doing was keeping a very good hold on Ruin, because obviously, once the hold was gone, we began to see the evidence for Ruin's existence via the killing mists and voices.

(Side note: We also don't see any mist spirits in MB1. The Lord Ruler could have a similar hold on Preservation to prevent the manifestation of such a mist spirit.)

Besides, the Lord Ruler, as evil as he was, is extremely intelligent. I seem to remember that in an annotation Brandon said "The Lord Ruler knew lots of things that most people didn't know." or something along those lines. He has a significant amount of knowledge of Hemalurgy to create the Inquisitors, and has an incredible grasp of Allomantic and Feruchemical theory in order to make himself so powerful. The Lord Ruler, both knowing about Hemalurgy and of Ruin's existence (because he is actively holding Ruin at bay. He wouldn't be able to do this if he didn't know what it was), would not create an army of super-Mistborn like the Steel Inquisitors if he knew that Ruin could so easily get a hold on them. I think the logical explanation is either: 1. He was not aware of Ruin's power to influence metals, merely that it was killing mists or 2. The Lord Ruler was aware of that ability of Ruin, but, he never anticipated on actually dying. He wouldn't have anything to fear from creating the Inquisitors which could potentially be controlled by Ruin because the Lord Ruler was keeping Ruin at bay. Problem solved, for him.

The problems began to arise when he died. The thing that the Lord Ruler was doing to keep Ruin from manipulating the world (note that what the Lord Ruler was doing is separate from Ruin being imprisoned at the Well of Ascension. This is totally something we have no knowledge about) is gone, so Ruin came back to its senses. It began to exert its will onto the tools that had been created right in front of him: the Steel Inquisitors and Zane.

Now that I think about it, Ruin must have some way to sense what people are thinking. He couldn't manipulate them, but merely be aware of them. Follow my reasoning: all throughout MB2, Ruin was cultivating events to make Vin begin to think she was the Hero of Ages in order to go to the Well and free Ruin. The basis for Vin's thought process on the matter, though, is that she and the Lord Ruler can do things normal Allomancers can't do (like pierce copperclouds). I would think Ruin would need to sense this perception in Vin's mind. From there, Ruin knew he had a pawn or tool that was easy for him to utilize, just like the Inquisitors and the Terris Prophecies.

The most important thing I am saying overall is that Ruin did not do scheming in the Lord Ruler's time. It was only after the Lord Ruler's hold on Ruin ended that its plan began to set in motion. We cannot even be sure if Ruin was aware of what was happening in the world while the Lord Ruler was in power. Ruin could have just have come out of the equivalent of a deep abyss and see all of the pawns in front of him and say to itself, "It's time to set my plan into motion."

...That should really have gone in the Ruin and Preservation thread.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on August 02, 2008, 08:06:15 AM
Or, GM, for the more practical of us, you go like this . . .

--- Discussion moved to page 18 of the Ruin and Preservation thread ---


. . . So, about that Hemalurgy. . .
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on August 02, 2008, 05:58:41 PM
You know... I disagree. I think that whether allomancy or feruchemy is related to preservation has some relevance to hemalurgy. I think it's allomancy, by the way.

And I shall comment on Chaos' post over on Ruin and Preservation (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5739.255)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 02, 2008, 06:23:37 PM
I believe that Hemalurgy was the first magic system to exist in the land for the following reasons.

1 - What we get from the books makes it seem that there was no such thing as Allomancy until TLR took control.
    -It says in many places that Allomancy was given to the nobility by TLR after his rise to power.

2 - We saw that there were hints of Hemalurgy before TLR took control.
    -Alendi's many piercings.

3 - It is plausible that a previous HoA created Feruchemy.
    -The Worldbringers wanted to keep memories and prophecies of the HoA, therefore they would have wanted a way to keep things in tact, therefore they could have created Feruchemy to preserve things.

4 - The mists seem to react most dramatically to Hemalurgy.
    -The first time and the most often mists react are described when talking of Hemalurgists.
    -Vin, using Hemalurgy presumably, burns the mists.

5 - Other
    -EUOL said that the magics are connected through the mists.
    -Mists react most to Hemalurgy, so it would make sense for it to be the oldest.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on August 02, 2008, 07:16:50 PM
I believe that Hemalurgy was the first magic system to exist in the land for the following reasons.

1 - What we get from the books makes it seem that there was no such thing as Allomancy until TLR took control.
    -It says in many places that Allomancy was given to the nobility by TLR after his rise to power.
Either that or Allomancy "arose with the mists" as Kelsier's legends support. (And we saw what happened with his other legends.) If this is the case, the mists came about either when The Lord Ruler Ascended, meaning he did not actually create Allomancy, just that it was there and he used it, or that Allomancy has been around since the Deepness was created.

2 - We saw that there were hints of Hemalurgy before TLR took control.
    -Alendi's many piercings.
There was also full-blown Feruchemy before The Lord Ruler Ascended. It was quite well known to it's people, as well.

3 - It is plausible that a previous HoA created Feruchemy.
    -The Worldbringers wanted to keep memories and prophecies of the HoA, therefore they would have wanted a way to keep things in tact, therefore they could have created Feruchemy to preserve things.
It's also possible that a previous Hero of Ages could have made Hemalurgy after Feruchemy. The Worldbringers could have come about as a combination between them having Feruchemy and the Well of Ascension being right in the middle of their homeland.

4 - The mists seem to react most dramatically to Hemalurgy.
    -The first time and the most often mists react are described when talking of Hemalurgists.
    -Vin, using Hemalurgy presumably, burns the mists.
Actually, the first time we see mist reacting to someone is when Kelsier first burns steel before he goes to rob house Venture, and if that one's too vague for you, he burns tin shortly after that and leaves no room for doubt. (pg. 91-92 The Final Empire.pdf)
If Vin uses Hemalurgy to burn the mists, why then does she have her earring out? We see by removing the metals on a Steel Inquisitor they lose their ability to use them when the linchpin spike is removed and they lose the Hemalurgic ability to stay alive.

5 - Other
    -EUOL said that the magics are connected through the mists.
    -Mists react most to Hemalurgy, so it would make sense for it to be the oldest.[/color]
Mists react about equally to Allomancy and Hemalurgy, from what I can  tell, but the strength of the Allomancy and/or Hemalurgy determines how much the mist is attracted/repelled. Being connected to the mists has little sway on which system came first, because they're all connected.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 02, 2008, 07:38:04 PM
1 - He says they arose with the mists, but the mists were around before TLR took control, assuming they were the Deepness.

2 - I didn't say Feruchemy wasn't around, I'm just saying that there were signs of Hemalurgy.

3 - I don't believe that the Worldbringers would have wanted to create Hemalurgy.  It seems like too malicious for something they would have wanted to create.

4 - OK I just looked over that, yes the first time we see the mists react was Kell, but we hear MORE about it when they talk about the Inquisitors or Vin when she fights TLR.  Most of us speculate that her earring coming out actually gives her access to Hemalurgy, why? I dunno, but that seems very plausible.

5 - But my previous argument of them being talked more of reacting to the mists and Vin being able to burn them through allegedly using Hemalurgy makes me think that it is more deeply connected to the mists, making it seem more of the older of the three.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Phaz on August 03, 2008, 12:44:26 AM
I'm not sure where else to put this as it somewhat pertains to all of these threads, but I think it will fit here.

I just got back from the signing Brandon did in Denver today and I asked him about these threads.  I think people might find the following information interesting (hence why I'm posting it).

He was asked if he read these threads.  He said he did at first, but since has stopped visiting them.  When he was reading them, he had to strongly resist the urge to post corrections to things that people would find out later.  However, once the book is out (and people have a chance to read it), he plans on stopping by and adding where necessary.

I think all of that is pretty well assumed by many.  However, the next part is interesting.

He then added that the "bumps" (the part of each chapter in italics at the beginning of them) are written by a character who "knows everything."  Thus, they go in depth into some of the more finer details of what is speculated in these threads.  Such as how allomancy works or (these were exact examples) "Why everyone in the world doesn't have black lung disease" and "why the world got hotter instead of cooler in the nuclear winter scenario" (ie all the ash blocking out the sun).   He seemed to imply that the bumps contained information about the series and world that were written in a scientific or almost encyclopedic way.

Other interesting things to note, is that he said in the next week or so, he will put up the first chapter of the book on his site, doing more after.  In the end, there will be 4 chapters, which will give you one from each of the viewpoints (except one I believe he said).

Finally, he had 3 copies of Hero of Ages complete with cover art and text.  It was pretty amazing being that close to all the answers.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 03, 2008, 01:02:09 AM
"Why everyone in the world doesn't have black lung disease"
Darn that ultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis!!!

Ha ha.

Sorry I couldn't resist.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on August 03, 2008, 08:56:41 PM
1 - He says they arose with the mists, but the mists were around before TLR took control, assuming they were the Deepness.

2 - I didn't say Feruchemy wasn't around, I'm just saying that there were signs of Hemalurgy.

3 - I don't believe that the Worldbringers would have wanted to create Hemalurgy.  It seems like too malicious for something they would have wanted to create.

4 - OK I just looked over that, yes the first time we see the mists react was Kell, but we hear MORE about it when they talk about the Inquisitors or Vin when she fights TLR.  Most of us speculate that her earring coming out actually gives her access to Hemalurgy, why? I dunno, but that seems very plausible.

5 - But my previous argument of them being talked more of reacting to the mists and Vin being able to burn them through allegedly using Hemalurgy makes me think that it is more deeply connected to the mists, making it seem more of the older of the three.

1 - We really have no idea that allomancy and the mists were created at the same time. From what we know, Allomancy COULD have been created when the mists arose, The mists COULD have arisen when the Lord Ruler came to power, the mist COULD have arisen at an earlier time, Allomancy might have already exists. Basically, we don't know.

2 - The only things we have to suggest that hemalurgy was around would be the bump that mentions the piercings of the hero, and the fact that Alendi was able to conquer the Terris population with no other available magic (Alendi was not a Feruchemist)

3 - Not the Worldbringers - a previous hero of ages. Besides, we don't really have anything to suggest that the hero of ages can make a magic system, except for the lord ruler - and he's never lied before, right? I would guess that all three systems have been there forever, and allomancy just died out for a while until the lord ruler came to power.

4 - I'd say we hear about the mist reacting to hemalurgy and allomancy about equally. And who, exactly, is "most of us?" I've heard theories that burning the mist was through hemalurgy before, but never once one that Vin's lack of an earring is what allows her to use hemalurgy. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I think the reason we remember it more when hemalurgy is mentioned though, is that it isn't what normally happens.

5 - All of the magic systems are related to the mists on a foundational level. And, as previously mentioned, it seems no newer than any of the others.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on August 04, 2008, 08:51:20 PM
The deepness could just be something within the mists, and not exactly the mists themselves. The Mists, even as the deepness, arose before TLR, thus allomancy easily could have existed before him, since they arose with the mists. And we don't see the mists in the daytime, possibly because they are so thin, like an indistinct haze, and the ashmounts obscure vision already, so we don't notice.

Then there's the note in the annotations that the world is kind of frozen in time (MB1, prologue part 2, thanks again Czanos), and now with TLR dead, time is beginning to unfreeze, and everything that was stopped before is now threatening to destroy the world.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on August 09, 2008, 07:20:51 PM
Quote
2 - We saw that there were hints of Hemalurgy before TLR took control.
    -Alendi's many piercings.

Actually, it just says "piercings of the hero."  This could mean only two (we know it is plural though).  Two can hardly be counted as many.

Quote
He then added that the "bumps" (the part of each chapter in italics at the beginning of them) are written by a character who "knows everything."  Thus, they go in depth into some of the more finer details of what is speculated in these threads.  Such as how allomancy works or (these were exact examples) "Why everyone in the world doesn't have black lung disease" and "why the world got hotter instead of cooler in the nuclear winter scenario" (ie all the ash blocking out the sun).   He seemed to imply that the bumps contained information about the series and world that were written in a scientific or almost encyclopedic way.


Perhaps the bumps are written by Preservation in order to tell the heroes about Ruin.  Preservation could do this in the same way that Ruin alters texts.  Preservation would be a being who would talk about the earth in a way that is "scientific" or "encyclopedic," as a scientist speaks of specimens.  I'm assuming of course, that the heroees discover the text that contains the bumps, as has happened in the other two books.

EDIT:  This is continued from the Ruin and Preservation thread:
...  Thebit about the lynch pin spike is interesteing, as is the bit about the inquisitors ability to stay alive.
What if the sacrifices have nothing to do with power at all, what if the purpose of the sacrifices IS to keep the inquisitors alive, or the blood activates the hemalurgy.  Perhaps the life force of the victim is captured in the spike, and transferred to the inquisitor?
There is a hole of course, Vin's mother used a sacrifice for Vin's earring, and she didn't need it to stay alive.  Perhaps passing the life along is an added benefit, and the main purpose is just to activate the hemalurgy.  Or maybe hemalurgy is meant to kill people, but the blood sacrifice weakens it, so it leaves them living with amazing powers.  We know Zane cuts himself, and his blood weakens God's voice in his head, so perhaps blood weakens hemalurgy, and the blood sacrifices are used so that the hemalurgy doesn't kill the person.
Still has holes, just some thoughts I thought while reading.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on August 10, 2008, 03:58:19 AM
Quote
He then added that the "bumps" (the part of each chapter in italics at the beginning of them) are written by a character who "knows everything."  Thus, they go in depth into some of the more finer details of what is speculated in these threads.  Such as how allomancy works or (these were exact examples) "Why everyone in the world doesn't have black lung disease" and "why the world got hotter instead of cooler in the nuclear winter scenario" (ie all the ash blocking out the sun).   He seemed to imply that the bumps contained information about the series and world that were written in a scientific or almost encyclopedic way.


Perhaps the bumps are written by Preservation in order to tell the heroes about Ruin.  Preservation could do this in the same way that Ruin alters texts.  Preservation would be a being who would talk about the earth in a way that is "scientific" or "encyclopedic," as a scientist speaks of specimens.  I'm assuming of course, that the heroees discover the text that contains the bumps, as has happened in the other two books.

Personally, I still think the chapter headings will be written by The Lord Ruler. After a thousand years of study, not to mention holding the power of the Well of Ascension, I'd bet he knows pretty much everything. I also think that this could be what's in Statlin City. Perhaps the Lord Ruler is not as cruel and arrogant as we all seem to think, and he did plan for what would happen should he die. He left a huge storage of canned food in the basement of his castle for the people of his city, and marked the place on a map where he left a detailed description of everything. Sort of like a, "I remade the world, here's what I did." kind of book. Or maybe more of an autobiography. Don't know why he wouldn't keep it in Luthadel though. . . Perhaps Statlin City stands on what used to be his hometown or something.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on August 10, 2008, 05:14:10 AM
I'm inclined to agree with you, Czanos.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 10, 2008, 05:45:29 AM
I think I vaguely said this once before, but I don't remember which thread.  Maybe I just thought it.

"Maybe TLR really wasn't trying to do bad, maybe he was doing good in the only way he could see it happening."

So I definitely agree with you. . . except on it being his hometown.  I think that he might have taken pieces of the old world and placed them here so he had something that felt like home. . . but not the actual city itself.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on August 10, 2008, 06:06:02 AM
I remember you saying you thought it was Rashek who would write the headings, but not for the same reasons, miyabi.

And the reason I said hometown is because The Lord Ruler would need a reason to not keep his findings near him, and I figured he's kind of obsessed with the past and heritage sometimes, he might want to kind of leave a memento of himself in the place where he grew up. And I'm not saying Statlin City is the city where he grew up, just that when The Lord Ruler remade the world and took it over, he built a city where his hometown used to be, and placed this record there. After all, the Well of Ascension was in Terris, and that's where Rashek grew up. It makes sense that his hometown wouldn't be all that far away from the Well, especially as he got hired as a guide to the Hero of Ages, so I figured he knew the area pretty well.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 10, 2008, 06:30:55 AM
I remember you saying you thought it was Rashek who would write the headings, but not for the same reasons, miyabi.
No, I didn't say anything about the headings that I remember.  It was something about TLR not really being a bad guy, just misunderstood.  That his intentions really were good, but he went about it in not the best way.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on August 11, 2008, 03:09:26 AM
The headings being from Rashek was actually initially chaos' idea, IIRC
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on August 11, 2008, 09:48:14 AM
This is kind of off topic but why not?
What I'm trying to put into words is how Rashek transformed the early kind of Hemalurgy into the bloody mess that we know as Inquisitors? If Allomancy didn't exisist before, then what exactly did Hemalurgy do? Also, as Kandra and Koloss have proved, TLR liked things he could control, so why not the Inquisitors? Well I guess I put it all into words, but there's just soooo much more in my head! Tiredness fails. Hemalurgy was somehow turned into a brutal weapon when allomancy came around, so what was it used for before?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 11, 2008, 05:35:12 PM
This is kind of off topic but why not?
What I'm trying to put into words is how Rashek transformed the early kind of Hemalurgy into the bloody mess that we know as Inquisitors? If Allomancy didn't exisist before, then what exactly did Hemalurgy do? Also, as Kandra and Koloss have proved, TLR liked things he could control, so why not the Inquisitors? Well I guess I put it all into words, but there's just soooo much more in my head! Tiredness fails. Hemalurgy was somehow turned into a brutal weapon when allomancy came around, so what was it used for before?
We don't really know what it was like before.  For all we know it could have been just as brutal, just maybe not normally used to the same extreme as it is currently.

I would assume that Hemalurgy did the same things that it does now, why would it change?

Well he wouldn't be able to control the Hemalurgists because he didn't create them, he just found a new way to use Hemalurgy to create Inquisitors.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on August 11, 2008, 07:24:42 PM
Okay, lets face it; the piercings of the hero probably have something to do with hemalurgy. And if it was just as bloody back then you would think someone, Qwaan at the least, would have mentioned something about Alendi's sadistic and extreme cruelty. Also if you are of the persuasion that you need Keepers to make a hemalurgist the Terrispeople would not have supported him.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 11, 2008, 09:47:28 PM
Just because he had the Hemalurgic piercings doesn't mean it was as violent then.  MAYBE the more violent the sacrifice and the more it does to the actual Hemalurgist, the more powerful it is.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on August 12, 2008, 12:44:38 AM
I think that is what i am saying, the Terris would not have supported him if it was as violent as it is now. Something must have changed. And while your idea about the more the violence the greater the power does make sense, it is not supported by the book. Vin's sister still died just to give Vin a little earring.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 12, 2008, 01:48:47 AM
I think that is what i am saying, the Terris would not have supported him if it was as violent as it is now. Something must have changed. And while your idea about the more the violence the greater the power does make sense, it is not supported by the book. Vin's sister still died just to give Vin a little earring.
But it was ALENDI with the piercings. o.O
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on August 12, 2008, 04:58:02 PM
The headings being from Rashek was actually initially chaos' idea, IIRC

Right now, I do not know whether (by reading the MB3 Sample Chapter 1) they are made by someone who merely believes himself to be the Hero of Ages, or someone who actually has irrefutable evidence that he is that mystical Hero spoken of in the Terris Prophecies before Ruin got a hold of them.

I'm going to go with Rashek until something proves it otherwise, though.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on August 13, 2008, 11:29:35 PM
I'm with Chaos on this one.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 13, 2008, 11:31:40 PM
I'm with Chaos on this one.
Ditto
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on August 16, 2008, 05:41:05 PM
So, back at home now and actually took the time to read the posts I skipped over last time.

I think that is what i am saying, the Terris would not have supported him if it was as violent as it is now. Something must have changed. And while your idea about the more the violence the greater the power does make sense, it is not supported by the book. Vin's sister still died just to give Vin a little earring.

This kind of makes sense, but also does not. For all we know, it could have been every bit as violent. The terris would then just follow him because of a) fear, or b) they do not know the process to create hemalurgists (like us!!!) So you could get around that. And the greater the violence, the greater the power does seem to make sense as well, though for some reason I find myself not liking it. It's possible, though.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 16, 2008, 10:13:17 PM
It is just a hunch but I think that's how it works.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on August 16, 2008, 10:40:10 PM
i wonder though if you need something special to become a hemalurgist. I mean, why not sacrifice Vin and give the powers to the other sister? I don't think Vin would be manifesting Allomantic abilities at the age of four or whatever she was then.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 16, 2008, 10:49:40 PM
Maybe Ruin could already see that she was the HoA?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on August 17, 2008, 06:33:07 AM
I think the bumps are written by the mist spirit , but that's just me...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on August 17, 2008, 11:20:20 PM
Maybe Ruin could already see that she was the HoA?

I doubt it, but I suppose it's possible. We just don't know enough about Ruin's capabilities to figure anything out. grr.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 18, 2008, 12:47:16 AM
Why don't we all go on strike until we get more chapter!?!?! xP  J/k ha ha.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on August 18, 2008, 04:37:13 AM
I'm guessing some people might be glad to be rid of us, our frequent off topic tangents and crazy posts are bound to get annoying.  Maybe we wouldn't be missed.  And do any of us really have the power of will to hold out?  All it would take is for one of us to break and post something incredibly brilliant or rediculous and we'd all come flocking back, chapter or no chapter.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 18, 2008, 07:31:36 AM
Yeah, there are probably a ton of people that just skim to see if it's anything interesting and then leave cause we're so tangential in our ravings.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on August 18, 2008, 07:14:18 PM
Once again, back to the topic...
I don't think Ruin can see into the future, that would seem beyond his capabilities, why would he need to be looking for something if he already knew where to find it?  How could he be defeated (we know he's going to be defeated), when he can see any attack coming long before it get's there and has time to prepare.  I don't think he could see the future, but I'm guessing he could sense Vin's allomancy, we already know that Ruin can manipulate metalminds, that means he can sense feruchemy right, why not allomancy (even dormant allomancy as well).
On another side not, do Feruchemists snap?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 18, 2008, 08:54:30 PM
I love how you say back to topic then talk about something other than Hemalurgy. ROFL.  J/K

I don't think Ruin could see into the future, I just think it knew Vin was the HoA.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: JCHancey on August 18, 2008, 08:58:24 PM
Maybe ruin is after what preservation already had, a body with all 3 systems. I don't really know how it would work but it's my crazy theory of the day
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 18, 2008, 09:34:56 PM
That's an interesting thought, but I don't think it would work, I mean TLR wasn't completely of preservation really.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: ]Accident[ on August 19, 2008, 01:20:04 AM
Good day all. New to this forum, so pardon any unintentional faux pas on my part.

Without a more solid foundation than speculation (no matter how well thought out!) for the theory that Ruin/Preservation may be directly linked to one or more of the Power systems of the land, I find it difficult to ascribe such a linkage. Granted, if one exists, it would surely be between Ruin and Hemallurgy, given the deadly and bloody nature of gaining access to this Power system. I do find it plausible that the events of Vin receiving the brass earing could qualify as a sacrifice fit to confer Hemallurgy upon the recipient, and while the parallels are there, no textual hints or foreshadowings that such is true can be found.

I enjoy and appreciate the theorization, my problem is that I am a technical analyst by nature, and more likely to apply Occam than to stretch out with potential theories. The things that are known without doubt are the existence of the three Power systems (Allomancy, Feruchemy, Hemallurgy); the mists, which are governed by a force which TLR kept at bay (presumably by a hybrid application of all three Power systems); the being at the WoA, which Rashak (rightly?) chose not to release upon his ascension but which Vin freed.

The being at the WoA is not directly tied to the mists, since the mists began advancing after TLR's demise, including selectively causing deaths of some, but not others; and this is before Vin releases the being in the Well at the end of MB2.

I believe there is good confidence for the idea that the Inquisitors' allomantic abilities and superior steel sensitivity are a hemallurgical trait; that there is strength to the theory that a malevolent force (Ruin?) can touch those who have hemallurgical attributes (Zane's 'insanity', Marsh's need to take actions he can't explain and wouldn't normally approve). But I would sooner think that the Inquisitors' remarkable healing ability is a function of hemallurgy's affect on pewter, than a connection to a more spiritual force.

Some speculation has come up regarding potential differences between the noble class and the skaa regarding access to Power systems, which I would reject. Elend spent a great deal of time and effort to prove to himself, and later the rest of the nobility, that there was no real difference beyond the favor of TLR. That effort, as a major sub-theme, is wasted if there are real differences. Given Elend's transformation at the WoA, it seems likely that Rashak granted the same to his favored friends after his ascension, and made laws prohibiting interbreeding with those outside of his favor, establishing the separation of classes among the people. A thousand years of breeding diluted the noble class to the point that being an Allomancer became rare, and Mistborn extremely rare.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 19, 2008, 01:53:08 AM
Here's a though that reading accident's post brought to mind.  (Welcome BTW.)

The only proof we have that Vin's mother did what she was from Reen. . . . what if it really was REEN who killed the sister and blamed it on the mother?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on August 19, 2008, 02:04:13 AM
Good day all. New to this forum, so pardon any unintentional faux pas on my part.

Without a more solid foundation than speculation (no matter how well thought out!) for the theory that Ruin/Preservation may be directly linked to one or more of the Power systems of the land, I find it difficult to ascribe such a linkage. Granted, if one exists, it would surely be between Ruin and Hemallurgy, given the deadly and bloody nature of gaining access to this Power system. I do find it plausible that the events of Vin receiving the brass earing could qualify as a sacrifice fit to confer Hemallurgy upon the recipient, and while the parallels are there, no textual hints or foreshadowings that such is true can be found.

Firstly, welcome to timewasters guide! Hope you continue to post in the future.

And, we assume that there is a link between Ruin and Hemalurgy because hemalurgists are decidedly...Ruin-ish. They're all either insane or possessed. Except Vin, and she only has an earring. So, really, we have as much to suggest that they are as that they aren't.

(presumably by a hybrid application of all three Power systems); the being at the WoA, which Rashak (rightly?) chose not to release upon his ascension but which Vin freed.

Woah...not theorizing, huh? Where did that come from? Hybrid application of the three magic systems? Never heard that before, though I kind of like it. Care to elaborate?

I believe there is good confidence for the idea that the Inquisitors' allomantic abilities and superior steel sensitivity are a hemallurgical trait; that there is strength to the theory that a malevolent force (Ruin?) can touch those who have hemallurgical attributes (Zane's 'insanity', Marsh's need to take actions he can't explain and wouldn't normally approve). But I would sooner think that the Inquisitors' remarkable healing ability is a function of hemallurgy's affect on pewter, than a connection to a more spiritual force.

We would sooner think the same as you. I don't recall anyone saying Inquisitor's healing ability was because of Ruin. In fact, we kind of assumed it was hemalurgy. And, as mentioned, we're almost positive that ruin can influence/control hemalurgists. And actually, Inquisitor's steel sensitivity is just because they are very well practiced in allomancy. And they can use allomancy (ok, not for sure, but I think there's more evidence this way than the other), so they don't need hemalurgy to do those things. (unless hemalurgy grants allomancy)

Quote from: MB2 Annotation Ch 12
By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody--at least, nobody the heroes know--is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

Some speculation has come up regarding potential differences between the noble class and the skaa regarding access to Power systems, which I would reject. Elend spent a great deal of time and effort to prove to himself, and later the rest of the nobility, that there was no real difference beyond the favor of TLR. That effort, as a major sub-theme, is wasted if there are real differences. Given Elend's transformation at the WoA, it seems likely that Rashak granted the same to his favored friends after his ascension, and made laws prohibiting interbreeding with those outside of his favor, establishing the separation of classes among the people. A thousand years of breeding diluted the noble class to the point that being an Allomancer became rare, and Mistborn extremely rare.

Ahh, coma's favorite pet theory again. Yeah, we debunked that one forever ago. Even comatose disagrees with it now...I think.

Here's a though that reading accident's post brought to mind.  (Welcome BTW.)

The only proof we have that Vin's mother did what she was from Reen. . . . what if it really was REEN who killed the sister and blamed it on the mother?

Possible, but it doesn't really matter at this point, except that it seems that Vin's mom could give her hemalurgy and Reen (most likely) couldn't.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on August 19, 2008, 02:41:35 AM
Some speculation has come up regarding potential differences between the noble class and the skaa regarding access to Power systems, which I would reject. Elend spent a great deal of time and effort to prove to himself, and later the rest of the nobility, that there was no real difference beyond the favor of TLR. That effort, as a major sub-theme, is wasted if there are real differences. Given Elend's transformation at the WoA, it seems likely that Rashak granted the same to his favored friends after his ascension, and made laws prohibiting interbreeding with those outside of his favor, establishing the separation of classes among the people. A thousand years of breeding diluted the noble class to the point that being an Allomancer became rare, and Mistborn extremely rare.
Ahh, coma's favorite pet theory again. Yeah, we debunked that one forever ago. Even comatose disagrees with it now...I think.
That was debunked?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on August 19, 2008, 02:43:34 AM
Not that the lord ruler gave the nobles allomancy and such. I was referring to the whole bit about access to the power systems and the difference between the skaa and nobles. Coma's Skaa magic theory.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on August 19, 2008, 03:38:28 AM
Oh, okay, I didn't realize you were agreeing with ]Accident[.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on August 19, 2008, 03:40:03 AM
Yes, I was confused for a minute there too.  I was like. . wait. . . I thought we agreed with that one already.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on August 19, 2008, 04:32:42 AM
But it was such a good theory!... While it lasted. :( :D
Anyways, back to business. Ham does quote several differences between Skaa and Nobility: height (which Kelsier dismisses), and the Balance, which hasn't been explained yet.  And the inquisitors DO have "uses," for skaa allomancers.  But I have "seen the light," and have decided that the Skaa have no magic system of their own, and of the same nationality (or many nationalities, as the Lord Ruler blurred many countries all together), and the only difference is the Lord Ruler's favour, and allomancy.  However, if I was right (which I now doubt) I reserve the right to brag, and say "I told you so," one numerous occaisions.
Welcome to the club Accident, I'd like to introduce myself, Comatose, the forum loon (theorist).  Pleased to meet you.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on August 19, 2008, 04:45:17 AM
Good day all. New to this forum, so pardon any unintentional faux pas on my part.

Indeed welcome! It's always a good day when new people show up. To celebrate this goodness, I'm going to make a few corrections where I may . . .

(presumably by a hybrid application of all three Power systems); the being at the WoA, which Rashak (rightly?) chose not to release upon his ascension but which Vin freed.

Woah...not theorizing, huh? Where did that come from? Hybrid application of the three magic systems? Never heard that before, though I kind of like it. Care to elaborate?

I've always noted how Hemalurgy repels the mists, and how one of the major things The Lord Ruler did was to "push away" the deepness. Hmmmmm . . . . >.>

I believe there is good confidence for the idea that the Inquisitors' allomantic abilities and superior steel sensitivity are a hemallurgical trait; that there is strength to the theory that a malevolent force (Ruin?) can touch those who have hemallurgical attributes (Zane's 'insanity', Marsh's need to take actions he can't explain and wouldn't normally approve). But I would sooner think that the Inquisitors' remarkable healing ability is a function of hemallurgy's affect on pewter, than a connection to a more spiritual force.

We would sooner think the same as you. I don't recall anyone saying Inquisitor's healing ability was because of Ruin. In fact, we kind of assumed it was hemalurgy. And, as mentioned, we're almost positive that ruin can influence/control hemalurgists. And actually, Inquisitor's steel sensitivity is just because they are very well practiced in allomancy. And they can use allomancy (ok, not for sure, but I think there's more evidence this way than the other), so they don't need hemalurgy to do those things. (unless hemalurgy grants allomancy)

Agreed but for one point on semantics. Inquisitors use Allomancy. They see via Allomantic lines as shown in MB3 Prologue. However, this does not necessarily mean that they have Allomancy. Just that they have access to it's abilities. Inquisitors' Allomantic abilities could stem from the Hemalurgic rituals. (Or Hemalurgy itself.) This would mean that they might not be able to do things like burn the mists. Just a thought


[MB2 Annotation Ch 12]

Some speculation has come up regarding potential differences between the noble class and the skaa regarding access to Power systems, which I would reject. Elend spent a great deal of time and effort to prove to himself, and later the rest of the nobility, that there was no real difference beyond the favor of TLR. That effort, as a major sub-theme, is wasted if there are real differences. Given Elend's transformation at the WoA, it seems likely that Rashak granted the same to his favored friends after his ascension, and made laws prohibiting interbreeding with those outside of his favor, establishing the separation of classes among the people. A thousand years of breeding diluted the noble class to the point that being an Allomancer became rare, and Mistborn extremely rare.

Ahh, coma's favorite pet theory again. Yeah, we debunked that one forever ago. Even comatose disagrees with it now...I think.

While it's true that I think there weren't any difference between Skaa and nobles when The Lord Ruler ascended, I think it's plausible that some traits, such as the Balance Elend mentions, arose after a thousand years of breeding segregation. (Or The Lord Ruler could have changed them genetically using the Well of Ascension.) However, they are still the same species and probably not any more different than say two nations on Earth are. For more information check Comatose's post, which was written as I wrote this up.

Without a more solid foundation than speculation (no matter how well thought out!) for the theory that Ruin/Preservation may be directly linked to one or more of the Power systems of the land, I find it difficult to ascribe such a linkage. [. . .]

I suppose it depends on how you use the word link. For me, Ruin being able to at least talk to every Hemalurgist we know of constitutes a link. Inquisitors, Zane, Vin, Vin's mom?, all of them hear Ruin's voice, and they're all Hemalurgists. (Although Vin was inside the Well of Ascension at the time, so she was pretty close to him.)

The being at the WoA is not directly tied to the mists, since the mists began advancing after TLR's demise, including selectively causing deaths of some, but not others; and this is before Vin releases the being in the Well at the end of MB2.

However Ruin can affect things in the world before he gets freed. Zane hears voices, words written down and in metalminds are changing, stuff which is all ascribable to Ruin. I believe the current theory as to why this happens right after The Lord Ruler's death is because he was a force of Preservation. (Which he was, regardless of whether he actually had Preservation's power or not. The Lord Ruler stagnated the world for a thousand years, making the world "a little bit frozen in time" as Brandon says in Annotation: Mistborn: The Final Empire - Prologue Part II.)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on August 19, 2008, 05:04:52 AM
Quote
Agreed but for one point on semantics. Inquisitors use Allomancy. They see via Allomantic lines as shown in MB3 Prologue. However, this does not necessarily mean that they have Allomancy. Just that they have access to it's abilities. Inquisitors' Allomantic abilities could stem from the Hemalurgic rituals. (Or Hemalurgy itself.) This would mean that they might not be able to do things like burn the mists. Just a thought

I thought we debunked the "Mist Burning," theory as while, but I guess not ;).  Anyways, I won't get into that right now.  I really liked your point about the Lord Ruler "pushing," away the mists.  Perhaps this also has something to do with Kredik Shaw, it is the "Hill of a Thousand Spires," and has many SPIKES sticking out of it.  This is very similar to hemalurgy besides the fact that there is no blood involved (that we know of).  Perhaps it is some sort of huge Hemalurgic construct, built over the well so Ruin couldn't meet up with the deepness again, notice how the Deepness began at the edges of the Empire and didn't come to Luthadel until the end.  This could be because of the well, but who knows?  There is also the matter of the black fog in the well room.  What in the world is that?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on August 19, 2008, 05:17:19 AM
We tried to debunk the mist burning, but couldn't. Kind of like we tried to debunk the kredik shaw as a hemalurgical construct, but couldn't. For the lord ruler to push back the deepness mists, that would take some INTENSE hemalurgy.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on August 19, 2008, 05:20:51 AM
We tried to debunk the mist burning, but couldn't. Kind of like we tried to debunk the kredik shaw as a hemalurgical construct, but couldn't. For the lord ruler to push back the deepness mists, that would take some INTENSE hemalurgy.

That's because it's true.  Meaning the Kredik Shaw theory (maybe).  I thought we went over though how the mist be burned up, and it being repelled would look completely different, and since Elend says it's pushing away, it means it's pushing away, not vanishing.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on August 21, 2008, 03:27:23 PM
I thought we debunked the "Mist Burning," theory as while, but I guess not ;). 
Its kinda hard to debunk a theory when Sanderson says in text that Vin burned the mists. I think the theory you are referring to is that when someone pushes away the mists they are being burned. That one was rejected.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on August 21, 2008, 04:06:00 PM
Ah I see, sorry about that little misunderstanding there. Glad we got that sorted out.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on August 28, 2008, 06:53:54 PM
Quote
Agreed but for one point on semantics. Inquisitors use Allomancy. They see via Allomantic lines as shown in MB3 Prologue. However, this does not necessarily mean that they have Allomancy. Just that they have access to it's abilities. Inquisitors' Allomantic abilities could stem from the Hemalurgic rituals. (Or Hemalurgy itself.) This would mean that they might not be able to do things like burn the mists. Just a thought

I believe Andrew convinced me this was not so. Hemalurgy is its own magic system: it does not grant the power of Allomancy. That's like saying if you burned the supposed 16th metal, it would give you Feruchemy--except that "burning" metals has nothing to do with Feruchemy, which uses the metals as storage devices.

I find it doubtful that Hemalurgy would give you the power of another magic system, because Hemalurgy appears to follow a different model than simple power-stealing. I like the theory that Hemalurgy uses the metals as sort of "lightning-rods" for the body's energy. It "burns" the body's energy through the metals, whereas Allomancy burns metals... through the body. It seems to me that Inquisitors could just get Allomancy from the 15th metal (the one Elend ate).

That's my theory, and I'm going to stick to it until I have a reason not to. Of course, even as I'm writing this post, I am seeing some very clear flaws in this... It's probably best to not listen to me too much.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on August 29, 2008, 03:55:49 AM
What he said
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on September 21, 2008, 02:41:59 AM
Okay, as I'm searching for a particular piece of information, I found this tidbit:

Quote from: MB1 Annotation 17 Part One
Whew! I've got a lot to say here. First off, Vin's earring. It's a little morbid the way she wears it around, since it was her mother's. The same mother that killed Vin's sister and tried to kill Vin, before Reen rescued her. But, we'll get to more of that later.

Brandon often says "we'll get to more of that later" when it's something that will come up in Book Three. Since we believe the earring to be Hemalurgically Imbued, I thought I'd post that here.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on September 21, 2008, 03:29:25 AM
Hurray for thread necromancy!!!! Seriously, though, this thread has needed to be bumped to the front for quite some time.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on September 21, 2008, 03:48:57 AM
I know. It turned out that annotations gave me a perfect excuse for it.

I'm almost done reading them (I started reading the MB1 annotations right after Part Two ended, because I'm having one of my friends read Mistborn for the first time and he said the army dies in Part Three. That's how I could search for it so quickly. Also, my friend loves Mistborn :P), I'm on chapter 38 part-two which is the final battle, so to speak.

Even though we know this already, here's a nice little annotation to show that we aren't insane:

Quote from: MB1 Annotation Chapter 38 Part-Two
You were probably expecting Marsh's return--at least, you probably were when you read the chapter where he 'died.' Making Inquisitors via Hemalurgy requires killing other people (see book three for an explanation of the process) so there's a lot of mess involved.

Just to show that sacrifices are indeed integral for it.

EDIT: Furthermore, in the same annotation:

Quote
By the way, the mists getting pushed away from Vin and Kar here is a clue of some sorts. Inquisitors push away the mists, rather than attracting them, when they use their powers. I'll explain this in book three too.

He says "powers", not "Allomancy". Interesting...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on September 21, 2008, 03:58:55 AM
That's because it's not allomancy. Though it's interesting that he doesn't just say hemalurgy.

I suppose it's possible that the inquisitors are constantly using hemalurgy (probably keeps them alive somehow) and therefore they would always push away the mists, even when using allomancy. Though they're also using allomancy to see constantly. Hmmmmm.... I'm not really sure what to think about that.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on September 21, 2008, 04:07:16 AM
Scroll up a bit! It's my theory that Inquisitors are burning Hemalurgically imbued metals (that is, metals which have had a sacrifice to make them... Hemalurgicalful) with Allomancy, and they get the boosted power from the hybrid powers, somewhat similar to how the Lord Ruler used Allomancy with Feruchemy.

Man, I miss this thread, with the wonderful new words we can come up with that have "Hemalurgy" as the base. "Hemalurgicalful". Classic.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on September 21, 2008, 05:21:21 AM
That theory makes many much sense to me. It would definitely explain it. So basically, I agree.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on September 21, 2008, 12:55:33 PM
Quote
By the way, the mists getting pushed away from Vin and Kar here is a clue of some sorts. Inquisitors push away the mists, rather than attracting them, when they use their powers. I'll explain this in book three too.

btw just wanted to let you all know I haven't quite given up on my "mist-burning = pushing away the mists theory"   :P
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on September 22, 2008, 02:20:32 AM
Tsk tsk. Give it up, Reaves!
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on September 22, 2008, 02:49:11 AM
Hmmmm... So does that mean that it's wrong or it's right?

No seriously, give it up. Then if you're right you get bragging rights, and if you're wrong, we don't.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on September 22, 2008, 02:50:11 AM
Tis true.

By the way, Andrew, get on MSN. We must discuss our Hemalurgy theories :D

EDIT: This needed to be here a long time ago.

Quote from: Chaos2651
Oh! Now I get it. Burning a metal that was hemalurgically imbued via a sacrificed. For the sake of consistency, let's just call that variety of metal an "Infused" metal (so we don't get it confused with metalminds [the reserves of Feruchemy], which was what I thought Comatose was talking about. Silly me.).

That... could explain a lot. It could explain how Hemalurgy seems so similar to Allomancy, because in fact, whenever someone uses Hemalurgy (like an Inquisitor), it could really be that they are burning an imbued metal. Much like how the Lord Ruler fused Feruchemy and Allomancy--which gave him a colossally expanded repetoire of abilities--Hemalurgy plus Allomancy could be what we've been seeing all this time! It's always appeared like Inquisitors had a form of enhanced Allomancy... and wouldn't that be exactly what burning an imbued metal would do?

For this theory to work, Inquisitors would need to be Allomancers (and Allomancers who were not formed by some bizarre Hemalurgical ritual that we don't know about yet) separately from Hemalurgists. The sacrifices imbue the metal, which the Inquisitors then can burn.

The interesting part of this idea is that while it shows how Inquisitors use Allomancy in an enhanced way, it doesn't really show the basic properties of Hemalurgy, which is the thing we are having the most trouble with discovered at the moment. It makes a ton of sense!

And this theory should absolutely be talked about in the Hemalurgy thread.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on September 22, 2008, 04:49:38 PM
Chaos, I agree with part of your theory, but what powers does Hemallurgy give you?  TLR's comments that Inquisitors are fabricated powers leads me to believe that it can be taken away if the metals are removed.  This is different from Allomancy, where once you have it, you have it for life.  I believe that the Sacrifice allows the metals to work in reverse, where the body's energy is drained to produce the metal's effects, instead of burning the metal.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on September 22, 2008, 05:37:35 PM
Chaos, I agree with part of your theory, but what powers does Hemallurgy give you?  TLR's comments that Inquisitors are fabricated powers leads me to believe that it can be taken away if the metals are removed.  This is different from Allomancy, where once you have it, you have it for life.  I believe that the Sacrifice allows the metals to work in reverse, where the body's energy is drained to produce the metal's effects, instead of burning the metal.

That was my assumption as well. I think there was even a quote in MB1 that makes more sense if you picture it in that light. I'll edit if I find it.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on September 22, 2008, 05:50:38 PM
I hop back and forth between the two particular theories. I have no idea what is right, though, before even thinking about what happens with an imbued metal is burned, I was always convinced that it was just Hemalurgy burning the body's energy--I still think that.

I'm to the point where I have no idea what I'm talking about anymore :P
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on September 22, 2008, 08:14:14 PM
Are we sure that Hemalurgy is even one of the three magic systems?

What if it is simply just an advanced form of Alomancy.  So there is actually a whole other different magic system we haven't even seen yet!

:o :]
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: GreenMonsta on September 22, 2008, 08:17:27 PM
idk miyabi. That would seem a stretch for me. At this point I don't want any new magic system, I mean there is only one book left and not much time to cover every thing. If you throw another system into the mix I think it might have a negative effect. I don't see Brandon doing that so late in the game.

I'm not saying your wrong I'm just saying that I feel it unlikely.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on September 22, 2008, 08:46:06 PM
idk miyabi. That would seem a stretch for me. At this point I don't want any new magic system, I mean there is only one book left and not much time to cover every thing. If you throw another system into the mix I think it might have a negative effect. I don't see Brandon doing that so late in the game.

I'm not saying your wrong I'm just saying that I feel it unlikely.
I didn't say I agreed with it either.  I was just posing the possibility. :]
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on September 22, 2008, 09:25:36 PM
Quote from: EUOL
However, Hemalurgy DOES fit quite well with the third (mostly unmentioned magic system) used by the Steel Inquisitors.

This is a quote from Brandon's writers group when he is trying to find a name for the third magic. At that time, Hemalurgy was what the Keepers used. Their magic was renamed Feruchemy and Hemalurgy was moved to the Inquisitors.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on September 22, 2008, 09:31:56 PM
BTW, the quote I was referring to was:

Quote from: MB1 pg 621
He had been awake for too long. Living as an Inquisitor drained the body, and he had to rest often. His brethren were already shuffling from the room, heading toward their rest chambers, which lay intentionally close to the throne room. They would sleep immediately; with the executions earlier in the day and the excitement of the night, they would be extremely fatigued.

Which begs the question. Why were they intentionally close to the throne room?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on September 22, 2008, 10:32:41 PM
Quote from: EUOL
However, Hemalurgy DOES fit quite well with the third (mostly unmentioned magic system) used by the Steel Inquisitors.

This is a quote from Brandon's writers group when he is trying to find a name for the third magic. At that time, Hemalurgy was what the Keepers used. Their magic was renamed Feruchemy and Hemalurgy was moved to the Inquisitors.
Oh well you just ruin ALL my fun. xD.

The throne room huh?   Hmmmmm. . . . Maybe by being near the throne room made it easy for them to be useful to TLR without him having to wait for them.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on September 22, 2008, 10:35:34 PM
idk miyabi. That would seem a stretch for me. At this point I don't want any new magic system, I mean there is only one book left and not much time to cover every thing. If you throw another system into the mix I think it might have a negative effect. I don't see Brandon doing that so late in the game.

I'm not saying your wrong I'm just saying that I feel it unlikely.

Well, reading all annotations, it is very clear that Hemalurgy is it's own magic system. It can't be just Allomancy, because there's just too much going on. Everything about the Inquisitors is based upon Hemalurgy. Allomancy and Feruchemy cannot explain how gigantic spikes inside the body wouldn't kill you; they do nothing to explain how Inquisitors are made (it does not explain anything of the process); it does not explain how when Zane cuts himself, it makes the voice of Ruin weaker in his head; it does not even explain how Ruin's voice could affect anyone with metallic spikes in them.

In fact, reading the annotations, MB3 is the book which explains everything. It should explain how the mists operate, the duality between Ruin and Preservation operates, why there is ash in the sky, and how the Inquisitors work. Knowing these things are absolutely vital to solve the problem of defeating Ruin. The book is not like MB2--it does not focus nearly as much on warfare. MB3 explains things. ...That's why we are theorizing, right? Because we want to know what happens in MB3.

I completely think there is plenty of space to explain all of this stuff. That's what MB3 is about.

Of course, if you can give me an explanation about the stuff we attribute to Hemalurgy--for example, everything happens when you have metal piercing your body--with Allomancy and Feruchemy, then I'll be all ears. But, Brandon's continually mentioned Hemalurgy as a third magic system, so I have complete faith that it shall be described in this book.

EDIT: VegasDev's quote isn't the only quote referencing Hemalurgy. It happens a lot, really...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on September 23, 2008, 12:06:27 AM
Don't expect book 3 to answer all your questions. Like Brandon has mentioned regarding AMoL numerous times, there are things an author purposely leaves out.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on September 23, 2008, 01:24:08 AM
Don't expect book 3 to answer all your questions. Like Brandon has mentioned regarding AMoL numerous times, there are things an author purposely leaves out.

Yes, but at that point, a question would be fair game to just ask Brandon, which just as good.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on September 23, 2008, 03:07:02 AM
Yeah, except for the 2nd and 3rd trilogies coming down the pipe eventually.

There's always another secret. In fact, there's one that one of the characters near the end of the book flat-out taunts you with.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: GreenMonsta on September 23, 2008, 03:37:50 AM
Really? Someone taunting us with secrets. Wow I don't look forward to that. It must be frustrating to the point I can only imagine.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on September 23, 2008, 04:38:17 AM
Really? Someone taunting us with secrets. Wow I don't look forward to that. It must be frustrating to the point I can only imagine.

Lalalalallalala... CAN'T HEAR YOU...

In all honesty, I don't think it's going to be horrible. The Final Empire was completely awesome even though a lot was held back. It's far more about the story than anything else.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on September 23, 2008, 01:58:15 PM
A part of me is relieved, actually.  If all questions were answered, what would we theorize about?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Miyabi on September 23, 2008, 03:26:35 PM
A part of me is relieved, actually.  If all questions were answered, what would we theorize about?
I can see it now.  We'll all still be here in three or four years theorizing about what will happen in a trilogy that hasn't even come out yet.  We'll be like, 'It will take place in New York City because . . '  'NO!  It WILL take place in Cairo because . . '

ha ha ha.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on September 23, 2008, 07:16:28 PM
Really? Someone taunting us with secrets. Wow I don't look forward to that. It must be frustrating to the point I can only imagine.

yeah, i wonder what that is like...one particular person, just...taunting away. Dropping tidbits of info here and there, then dancing away with an evil smirk...thank God we don't have to experience that...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: happyman on September 23, 2008, 08:55:46 PM
Really? Someone taunting us with secrets. Wow I don't look forward to that. It must be frustrating to the point I can only imagine.

yeah, i wonder what that is like...one particular person, just...taunting away. Dropping tidbits of info here and there, then dancing away with an evil smirk...thank God we don't have to experience that...

Yeah, that'd be really annoying.  How would we ever know if we were getting close?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on September 25, 2008, 02:48:56 AM
Man I really need to catch up!

As for the whole inquisitors thing, all the inquisitor viewpoints mention them using allomancy, and I'm pretty sure they were all seekers to start with, so I think it's safe to assume they use a combination of powers.

I think that they have allomancy but they didn't get it in the normal way, you notice how brandon says inquisitors are created VIA hemalurgy.  This leads me to believe that hemalurgy is merely the process in making an inquisitor, and the  ENDOWED powers they use are allomantic.  They only use hemalurgy to create new inquisitors.

So far, the two magic systems we know about have something to do with strengthening certain attributes, what if hemalurgy does this as well.  Something maxes out strength or speed or health, while others might max out allomancy.  They start out as misting seekers, and end up with the power of a misborn.  I'm not completely sure of this last paragraph, but I'm believeing more and more that hemalurgy is a process, not necessarily a power, Marsh says that hemalurgy is messy work after all.  So ya, there you go.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on September 25, 2008, 06:50:58 AM
I think I said something along those lines some pages back, so yeah, I think it's definitely plausible. :)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on October 01, 2008, 09:09:18 PM
Ok wow, this thread needed to be bumped again.

Anyway, thought on Inquisitors; what if the reason it is only seekers who are made into Inquisitors is because of the hemalurgical property of brass? (It is brass the seekers use, right?)

Also there has to be a reason it is only Allomancy that has devolved to the point where most of its members can only use a single metal. (It would really suck if u were a feruchemist and all you could do was change your weight. Although useful for the pro wrestlers and horse jockeys out there.)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on October 01, 2008, 09:13:22 PM
No, brass Soothes. Bronze Seeks.

EDIT: There has to be more to Hemalurgy than just power-stealing. Power stealing does nothing to explain piercing copperclouds, which I am fairly convinced is Hemalurgically related.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on October 01, 2008, 09:51:31 PM
Why can't piercing copperclouds be the combined powers of pure Allomancy and Hemalurgic Allomancy?  It has already been established that combining powers can greatly enhance ability.  Why would this be any different?  You will need a Seeker to create an Inquisitor either way, why not create the ability to detect Allomancy through copper clouds? 
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on October 01, 2008, 09:57:53 PM
Well, that theory is good, but that does very little to actually explain how it works. We understand the Allomancy and Feruchemy hybrid and it makes total sense, but Hemalurgy still remains mysterious.

Yes, it may very well be that piercing copperclouds has that effect. The question is why.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on October 01, 2008, 10:02:54 PM
Are we sure that only seekers become Inquisitors? It doesn't seem like a prerequisite when you consider that Marsh was originally supposed to be a smoker....
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on October 01, 2008, 10:07:42 PM
Are we sure that only seekers become Inquisitors? It doesn't seem like a prerequisite when you consider that Marsh was originally supposed to be a smoker....

That's a very valid point. It could just be any old Misting that could become an Inquisitor.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on October 01, 2008, 10:21:44 PM
Of course, if it wasn't necessary, then why did EUOL change him to a Seeker?  Kinda makes you wonder.  I am not saying that they have to be Seekers, but when their main function under TLR was to find rogue allomancers, wouldn't you want their strongest ability to be Seeking?  Now it probably doesn't matter, but it was important when TLR was alive.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on October 01, 2008, 10:26:59 PM
He changed him to a Seeker because he realized that the crew needed their Smoker (Clubs) to stay with them and protect them longer.

I'm not convinced that Inquistors-to-be even need to be Mistings of any kind.  It might be that way, but I haven't seen any direct evidence.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on October 02, 2008, 12:07:34 AM
Now here's an interesting question:

Was Vin's sister a misting?

If we're going with the misting-per-spike theory, She would have to be. However, the odds of Vin's mother having a child with the high prelan, then later having another one and living to sacrifice the younger to the older are not good. So she would have had to have another noble to have Vin's sister. I don't really have a point here, just thought that I'd point that out.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on October 02, 2008, 07:08:49 AM
Based on the first book, I thought they were full sisters.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on October 02, 2008, 05:32:00 PM
Oy! Full sisters means either twins, or that Prelan just didn't try very hard to kill her.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on October 02, 2008, 06:01:41 PM
Oy! Full sisters means either twins, or that Prelan just didn't try very hard to kill her.

It's a tough call; Vin refers to her as her baby sister. What that means is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on October 02, 2008, 07:39:34 PM
There could be another explanation.  We don't know what effects Hemallurgy has on the children of someone with a spike, and since Vin's Mom heard voices (which we believe to be Ruin), then she had a spike.  She may have passed abilities on to her children, and the combination of her Hemallurgy and the Prelan's Allomancy is what makes her so unusually strong.  Besides that, Hemallurgy may not need a Misting to enhance a power that already exists in a person.  Of course, if this is true then the Seeker theory is kinda blown.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on October 02, 2008, 07:48:44 PM
Regarding the seeker theory, Kelsier assumed that all Inquisitors were Seekers based solely on the fact that they could detect Allomancy, hunting down part-ska Allomancers and other Allomancy abusers. However he did admit that he could be wrong and that Inquisitors may have another power unrelated to Allomancy.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on October 02, 2008, 07:49:02 PM
There could be another explanation.  We don't know what effects Hemallurgy has on the children of someone with a spike, and since Vin's Mom heard voices (which we believe to be Ruin), then she had a spike.  She may have passed abilities on to her children, and the combination of her Hemallurgy and the Prelan's Allomancy is what makes her so unusually strong.  Besides that, Hemallurgy may not need a Misting to enhance a power that already exists in a person.  Of course, if this is true then the Seeker theory is kinda blown.

Note: I do not believe that the voice was Ruin. There's no evidence to support the fact that Ruin had any influence on the world during the Lord Ruler's reign.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on October 02, 2008, 08:39:43 PM
Note: I do not believe that the voice was Ruin. There's no evidence to support the fact that Ruin had any influence on the world during the Lord Ruler's reign.

Do you believe that the voice Zane heard was Ruin's?  Because he'd been hearing that all his life.  Do you believe that the voice Marsh heard was Ruin's?  Because it would be strange for some Hemalurgists to hear Ruin's voice while other Hemalurgically-pierced people heard someone else's voice.

I don't know that I'd say there's no evidence.  No evidence that you accept, perhaps.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on October 02, 2008, 08:49:19 PM
That all leads back to the question: How and when did Zane get his spike?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on October 02, 2008, 10:22:07 PM
Well, I didn't know that Zane heard the voices all his life. That's more me just not paying attention to any of Zane's viewpoints... seriously, I've been corrected numerous about Zane. I'll happily concede that fact :P.

But why would Ruin control Zane and Vin's mom but not the twenty Steel Inquisitors throughout the Final Empire? It's possible the Lord Ruler put in some sort of Allomantic safeguard to protect the Inquisitors from Ruin, but it seems unlikely, especially if he had knowledge about Ruin (he said "what I do for mankind", which suggests to me that the Lord Ruler knows about Ruin on some level) that he would create the Inquisitors if Ruin had any power to control them.

The only explanation for if Zane and Vin's mom heard Ruin's voice would be because Ruin was extremely weakened by the Lord Ruler (ostensibly with whichever method the Lord Ruler did to protect against Ruin/Deepness), but not COMPLETELY nullified. Thus, Ruin only had enough power to begin grooming Vin to be Hero of Ages. It's possible, I'll admit, especially if there is proof that Zane heard voices all his life. Then that would definitely be the plausible scenario.

I'll try to look for it when I begin my reread through of MB1 and 2.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: SarahG on October 02, 2008, 10:39:36 PM
I'm not sure I remember there being specific proof that Zane heard God's voice all his life; I only know that he thought he was insane because of it.  Now that I think about it, it could have been that he only recently started hearing the voices, in the last year, since TLR's death.  However, I don't know how Zane would explain his sudden "insanity" to himself, nor how Straff would account for it; I think both of them give the impression of having lived with and come to terms with Zane's strange mental state.  You can tell us, when you've finished rereading, if you find anything more specific on the matter.

Still, we know that Vin's mother heard voices before TLR's death, and it seems strange to me that there would be multiple types of voices that people hear in these books.  The fact that they all hear voices seems to indicate (tenuously, at least) that they all hear the same voice.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on October 02, 2008, 11:11:46 PM
I definitely got the impression Zane had been hearing voices for his entire life. However it also seems impossible that the Inquisitors have been under the control of Ruin all this time if TLR knew about Ruin's abilities to affect hemalurgists mentally and actually was trying to prevent Ruin from escaping the Well.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on October 03, 2008, 05:08:41 AM
Well... wouldn't he rationalize the sudden voices by claiming that he's insane? Lol.

Though, I do agree that Straff seemed to come to terms with Zane's insanity.

Still, we know that Vin's mother heard voices before TLR's death, and it seems strange to me that there would be multiple types of voices that people hear in these books.  The fact that they all hear voices seems to indicate (tenuously, at least) that they all hear the same voice.

Actually, there is a definite instance where there is a voice which isn't Ruin's. At the end of MB2, Sazed fights Marsh:

Quote from: MB2 Page 564 Hardback
"I'm sorry," Marsh said again, then raised a hand and Pushed the bag at Sazed.

The pouch shot across the room and hit Sazed, ripping, the bits of metal inside tearing into Sazed's flesh. He didn't have to look down to know how badly he was injured. Oddly, he could no longer feel his pain--but he could feel the blood, warm, on his stomach and legs.

I'm... sory, too, Sazed thought as the room grew dark, and he fell to his knees. I've failed... though I know not at what. I can't even answer Marsh's question. I don't know why I came here.

He felt himself dying. It was an odd experience. His mind was resigned, yet confused, yet frustrated, yet slowly... having... trouble...

Those weren't coins, a voice seemed to whisper.

The thought rattled in his dying mind.

The bag Marsh shot at you. Those weren't coins. They were rings, Sazed. Eight of them. You took out two--eyesight and hearing. You left the other ones where they were.

In the pouch, tucked into your sash.

There's also an instance where Elend hears a voice when he kills that one koloss, but I don't remember where that one is explicitly.

As for this quote, there is no reason why Ruin would TELL Sazed these were rings if Marsh was controlled by Ruin. None at all. If you can think of one, I would be rightfully impressed, though. Besides, I know the quote was brought up before and Ookla said "why would Ruin be talking with Sazed there?".

However, when I typed this out, I noticed some more things I didn't before. Firstly, the metal rings are sticking in Sazed's flesh, so let's assume for a moment that this is Hemalurgy, much like how it operates for Inquisitors. They key thing here is that something else--and if not Ruin, I think Preservation is the only possible source for the voice--spoke to Sazed. If it is indeed Preservation talking, then we can assume that Ruin does NOT have exclusive control over Hemalurgy. So take note, everyone who thinks there is a Hemalurgy/Allomancy combined with a Ruin/Preservation duality.

Ruin does not have exclusive control over Hemalurgy. Likewise, Sazed (or Elend) don't hear the voices more because they have that inclination to not pierce their body's with metal. So, likewise, one could previously assume that the mist spirit COULD be Preservation, and that is linked with Allomancy. However, if Ruin does not have exclusive control over Hemalurgy, then Preservation needs not have exclusive control over Allomancy.

Now, one could make the argument, "If Preservation can talk via Hemalurgy, why doesn't it do so with Vin and stop Ruin's plan?". To that, I don't have an answer. Wait... okay, I'm thinking this out as I type, and I don't think Sazed's rings up there that pierce his flesh have a blood sacrifice (except for his own, which I don't believe counts). Hemalurgy... without a blood sacrifice? That seems to defy everything we know about Hemalurgy. Perhaps Preservation talks to people who have metals without sacrifices and Ruin talks to people who have sacrificially-imbued metals, or perhaps Hemalurgy requires a blood sacrifice, but Ruin/Preservation talking through the metals does not require a sacrifice.

Interesting.

The other thing that I noticed was, "Oddly, he could no longer feel his pain--but he could feel the blood, warm, on his stomach and legs.". Is it "odd" to no longer feel pain? Could this be a Hemalurgical property we don't know about yet?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on October 03, 2008, 05:41:31 AM
If anything, I think Vin couldn't hear Preservation because of her earring. Same reason she couldn't draw on the mists.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: kbob_o on October 03, 2008, 04:31:14 PM
There's also an instance where Elend hears a voice when he kills that one koloss, but I don't remember where that one is explicitly.

Was Elend pierced? I can't remember that... but I didn't think he was.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on October 03, 2008, 04:58:53 PM
not hemalurgically, no.

EDIT: Not that we know of...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: happyman on October 03, 2008, 06:41:47 PM
Oy! Full sisters means either twins, or that Prelan just didn't try very hard to kill her.

It's a tough call; Vin refers to her as her baby sister. What that means is anyone's guess.

I found a reference that applies here:

Quote
It wasn't much.  But, then, Vin wasn't sure she wanted to think about her mother all that much.  The woman had, after all, tried to kill Vin.  In fact, she had killed Vin's full sister(emphasis added).  Only the actions of Reen, Vin's half brother(emphasis added), had saved her.
P. 42, WoA, paperback (Chapter 5)

This quote makes it clear that the sister was fully her sister, but Reen only her half-brother.  Now that I look at it, the phraseology is slightly awkward; the relationships must be important...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on October 03, 2008, 07:23:23 PM
I found a reference that applies here:

Quote
It wasn't much.  But, then, Vin wasn't sure she wanted to think about her mother all that much.  The woman had, after all, tried to kill Vin.  In fact, she had killed Vin's full sister(emphasis added).  Only the actions of Reen, Vin's half brother(emphasis added), had saved her.
P. 42, WoA, paperback (Chapter 5)

This quote makes it clear that the sister was fully her sister, but Reen only her half-brother.  Now that I look at it, the phraseology is slightly awkward; the relationships must be important...

So with Vin referring to her as her baby sister (in another quote), it either means that Vin is older and most likely not a twin or she is a twin and Brandon was giving a timeframe for when Vin got her earring.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on October 04, 2008, 10:41:01 PM
The Lord Prelan says he didn't know Vin's mother was a skaa at first, thus they probably had the opportunity to have several childrean together.

I think Allomancy is related to the balance between Ruin and Preservation, and hemalurgy is the disblance, the hemalurgists can be influenced (I say influenced not controlled, Marsh is still fighting, and Zane was in control), by either one.

Notice how the voice whispers to sazed?  God (Zane's voice), shouts and demands.  Alendi also heard quiet whispers telling him everything was going to be alright.  Maybe that's the clue, perhaps Preservation whispers because it's so far away.

Also, notice when Ruin takes control of Marsh, he hears no voices.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on October 04, 2008, 11:07:39 PM
I think Allomancy is related to the balance between Ruin and Preservation, and hemalurgy is the disblance, the hemalurgists can be influenced (I say influenced not controlled, Marsh is still fighting, and Zane was in control), by either one.

When have we seen Preservation controlling anyone?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on October 05, 2008, 12:25:38 AM
"Control" isn't the right word, it's more of "speaking". Last page I mentioned that Sazed heard Preservation's voice.

I found a reference that applies here:

Quote
It wasn't much.  But, then, Vin wasn't sure she wanted to think about her mother all that much.  The woman had, after all, tried to kill Vin.  In fact, she had killed Vin's full sister(emphasis added).  Only the actions of Reen, Vin's half brother(emphasis added), had saved her.
P. 42, WoA, paperback (Chapter 5)

This quote makes it clear that the sister was fully her sister, but Reen only her half-brother.  Now that I look at it, the phraseology is slightly awkward; the relationships must be important...

So with Vin referring to her as her baby sister (in another quote), it either means that Vin is older and most likely not a twin or she is a twin and Brandon was giving a timeframe for when Vin got her earring.

More importantly, that means Vin's sister has the Lord Prelan's bloodline, so she could have been an Allomancer as well (perhaps unsnapped, though).
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on October 05, 2008, 06:12:51 PM
sorry, I just noticed that in book 2 Marsh DOES mention hearing voices, however, when we actually see things from his viewpoint, Ruin just takes control, perhaps being trapped in the well weakened him enough that he had to persuade the inquisitors, but now that he is free, he can just control something.

And as for the whispers VS shouts thing, Reen always whispers to Vin.  Sazed and Elend both hear whispers, but Zane hears god shouting, and I am assuming that the voice in Marsh's head was also very persuasive and difficult to ignore.  Ruin=shouting Preservation=whispers perhaps.  (sorry this computer can't do question marks for some reason.)
What do you guys think.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: happyman on October 06, 2008, 04:55:05 PM
This is a very long thread.  Has anybody mentioned that Steel Inquisitors can definitely pierce copperclouds; that Marsh confirmed it before he got dominated by Ruin?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on October 06, 2008, 05:24:19 PM
This is a very long thread.  Has anybody mentioned that Steel Inquisitors can definitely pierce copperclouds; that Marsh confirmed it before he got dominated by Ruin?

It's been theorized, but I don't remember that Marsh explicitly confirmed it. Do you happen to have a quote, or at least a general area where it was?

And it looks like college is coming on pretty thick for me, so I probably won't have a chance to do my reread of MB1 and MB2. Oh well...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: happyman on October 06, 2008, 08:40:37 PM
This is a very long thread.  Has anybody mentioned that Steel Inquisitors can definitely pierce copperclouds; that Marsh confirmed it before he got dominated by Ruin?

It's been theorized, but I don't remember that Marsh explicitly confirmed it. Do you happen to have a quote, or at least a general area where it was?

And it looks like college is coming on pretty thick for me, so I probably won't have a chance to do my reread of MB1 and MB2. Oh well...

I found it on my recent read-through, but wasn't certain if it had been cited.  Ironically, we probably miss it because it is very early in the book.  In my paperback, it's on page 24, in Chapter 3.  It's just before she sees the mist spirit for the first time, two pages into Vin's POV.

Quote
With a sigh, she opened her eyes.  Her strange power was confusing, but it wasn't unique to her.  Marsh had confirmed that Steel Inquisitors could pierce copperclouds, and she was certain the Lord Ruler had been able to do so.

If you read the book and find her mentioning her ability to pierce copperclouds, you're too far.

Incidentally, this moves the "Hemalurgy enables it" argument well into the "likely" category.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on October 07, 2008, 02:54:15 AM
Oi, I am still in the denial stage about the college things, my friends are doing scholarship stuff already (or some of them), I still have not decided what I am doing yet.  I suppose I will be forced to look into it soon enough.  I still try to find more time than I have lately to be on the boards, at least until the book comes out.
This is really frustrating, my apostrophes are not working!

I think it is fairly for certain that it is her earring that is doing the copper cloud piercing thing.
Another thought on the voices, I just finished my reread, and this time Elends and Sazeds (sorry) scenes with the whispering voices really jumped out at me.  Elends because this is information he could not have know and Brandon clearly points this out.  The only problem is, he carried no metal, and has no piercings, so why the voice.  Sazed may have had metal, but they were not hemalurgic, and Vin heard Reens voice BEFORE she placed her earring in her ear during book one.  perhaps only Ruin speaks through hemalurgy, or perhaps the voices are neither ruin nor Preservation.  What if they are the voices of the dead (question marks are not working either, next time I am using a different computer).  The amount Brandon has Sazed focus on how he does not know what happens to the dead at the end makes me wonder.  Is Twindyl speaking to Sazed, is the Spirit of Reen actually giving Vin advice (No Question marks).  Elends was tricky but I was wondering if it might be Kelsier.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: happyman on October 07, 2008, 03:05:58 AM
Oi, I am still in the denial stage about the college things, my friends are doing scholarship stuff already (or some of them), I still have not decided what I am doing yet.  I suppose I will be forced to look into it soon enough.  I still try to find more time than I have lately to be on the boards, at least until the book comes out.
This is really frustrating, my apostrophes are not working!

I think it is fairly for certain that it is her earring that is doing the copper cloud piercing thing.
Another thought on the voices, I just finished my reread, and this time Elends and Sazeds (sorry) scenes with the whispering voices really jumped out at me.  Elends because this is information he could not have know and Brandon clearly points this out.  The only problem is, he carried no metal, and has no piercings, so why the voice.  Sazed may have had metal, but they were not hemalurgic, and Vin heard Reens voice BEFORE she placed her earring in her ear during book one.  perhaps only Ruin speaks through hemalurgy, or perhaps the voices are neither ruin nor Preservation.  What if they are the voices of the dead (question marks are not working either, next time I am using a different computer).  The amount Brandon has Sazed focus on how he does not know what happens to the dead at the end makes me wonder.  Is Twindyl speaking to Sazed, is the Spirit of Reen actually giving Vin advice (No Question marks).  Elends was tricky but I was wondering if it might be Kelsier.

Since Brandon has stated that Reen's voice is partly Vin's subconscious regurgitating what he told her, I'm not certain how significant the timing of Reen's voice is.

With Sazed, it's possible the metal (his metalminds) piercing his body was enough.  We don't know it has to be a Hemalurgical piercing for Preservation to speak.  Perhaps Hemalurgy is just necessary for control, or just necessary for Ruin.

Elend is harder to identify, although I agree that that jumped out at me as well.  Hmmm.  Maybe metal is a red herring after all.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on October 07, 2008, 05:02:31 AM
If they are the voices of the dead, then why doesn't Preservation speak? I think it's Preservation, though I agree it's difficult to tell using Reen's voice, since it's not always her subconscious... It would be something for someone to compile a list of everything Reen says and try to actually decide when it's a memory...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on October 07, 2008, 05:51:51 AM
This is a very long thread.  Has anybody mentioned that Steel Inquisitors can definitely pierce copperclouds; that Marsh confirmed it before he got dominated by Ruin?

It's been theorized, but I don't remember that Marsh explicitly confirmed it. Do you happen to have a quote, or at least a general area where it was?

And it looks like college is coming on pretty thick for me, so I probably won't have a chance to do my reread of MB1 and MB2. Oh well...

I found it on my recent read-through, but wasn't certain if it had been cited.  Ironically, we probably miss it because it is very early in the book.  In my paperback, it's on page 24, in Chapter 3.  It's just before she sees the mist spirit for the first time, two pages into Vin's POV.

Quote
With a sigh, she opened her eyes.  Her strange power was confusing, but it wasn't unique to her.  Marsh had confirmed that Steel Inquisitors could pierce copperclouds, and she was certain the Lord Ruler had been able to do so.

If you read the book and find her mentioning her ability to pierce copperclouds, you're too far.

Incidentally, this moves the "Hemalurgy enables it" argument well into the "likely" category.

It puts it into the "Irrefutably Quality for Hemalurgy", in my opinion.

Quote from: happyman
With Sazed, it's possible the metal (his metalminds) piercing his body was enough.  We don't know it has to be a Hemalurgical piercing for Preservation to speak.  Perhaps Hemalurgy is just necessary for control, or just necessary for Ruin.

Elend is harder to identify, although I agree that that jumped out at me as well.  Hmmm.  Maybe metal is a red herring after all.

I'm thinking it has something to do with a blood sacrifice. With a blood sacrifice, it is Ruin's voice, without one, it is Preservation. Though that's pure speculation.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on October 07, 2008, 06:15:56 AM
Alright, long post. With the html copy of Final Empire so nicely offered from Tor, here is the list of everything Reen says in Vin's head, along with what chapter it occurred in. Of course, I don't have page numbers, because it's html, but there you go.

Chapter 1
And Vin liked solitude. When you're alone, no one can betray you. Reen's words. Her brother had taught her so many things, then had reinforced them by doing what he'd always promised he would—by betraying her himself. It's the only way you'll learn. Anyone will betray you, Vin. Anyone.

Chapter 2
You think some crewleader is going to want a liability like you on his team? he had said. I don't even want to have to work with you, and I'm your brother.

Chapter 3
In her mind, she thought she heard a voice whispering to her. Reen's voice. Fool! Ruthlessness—it's the most logical of emotions. You don't have any friends in the underworld. You'll never have any friends in the underworld!

Vin frowned. Then she eyed Kelsier, who smiled. He knew that he had her. He had shown off his power, had tempted her with it. The only reason to be subservient to those with power is so that you can learn to someday take what they have. Reen's words.

Chapter 4
If you let someone get close to you, it will only hurt more when they betray you, Reen seemed to whisper in her mind.

Never trust a man who tells you good news, Reen had always said. It's the oldest, but easiest, way to con someone.

Chapter 7
Vin almost smiled back. Reen's training came to her rescue. The man who wants you to trust him is the one you must fear the most. Her brother's voice almost seemed to whisper in her head. It had grown stronger since she'd met Kelsier, as if her instincts were on edge.

Chapter 8
Vin took a seat in one of the stiffly upholstered maroon chairs, tucking her feet up beneath her. She knew what the problem was. Kelsier had been showing her too much respect, making her feel too important. She was beginning to think that she deserved to be part of his secret confidences. Reen's laughter in the back of her mind discredited those thoughts, and she sat, annoyed at both herself and Kelsier, feeling ashamed, but not exactly certain why.

Chapter 9
You don't want them to think of you as a girl, Reen's voice warned. Yet, for once, she found herself wanting to ignore that voice.

Chapter 16
They're fools, Reen's voice whispered. This entire plan will end in disaster—and your death will be your own fault for not leaving when you could.

Chapter 18
Anyone will betray you, Reen whispered. Everyone will betray you.

Chapter 20
Is that a good enough reason to let them get you killed? Reen's voice asked.

Chapter 30
However, a voice from within—a voice she had nearly forgotten—began to speak. Of course he left you, Reen whispered. Of course he abandoned you. Everyone will betray you, Vin. What did I teach you?

I never came back for you, Reen whispered. He won't either. The voice felt so real—it was almost like she could hear him beside her.

Chapter 31
You should just be angry at yourself, Reen's voice whispered. You're the one who let them get close. Now they're all just going to leave you.

Chapter 34
Then he towed her away. Vin continued to struggle weakly, but she was growing numb. In the back of her mind, she heard Reen's voice.

See. I told you he would leave you. I warned you.

I promised you. . . .

Epilogue
A whispered voice came from the back of her mind, speaking in Reen's voice. Go back.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on October 07, 2008, 07:28:23 PM
Many of those are written differently.  We should definitely remove the words where she remembers his words versus those where she actually hears the voice in her head.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on October 08, 2008, 07:53:09 AM
Only four, really; Chapter 1, Chapter 2, and the 2nd ones in Chapters 3 and 4. The others all seem to be Reen speaking in her head and not just memories. At least, they could be.

The list I compiled is just everything he said in the book. Everything. I also included the bit where she heard him laughing in her mind because I thought it fit with everything else.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on October 08, 2008, 04:20:32 PM
I understand.  I was just filtering the list a little bit.  There are a couple that do seem very suspicious, but there are others that are most likely just Vin's subconscious.  That doesn't really help anything, does it?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Qarlin on October 08, 2008, 06:38:26 PM
"Every Little bit helps." As they say. "They" being the Sheriff of Nottingham in Disney's animated Robin Hood.

So, these are the ones I think are the most suspicious:

Chapter 3
In her mind, she thought she heard a voice whispering to her. Reen's voice. Fool! Ruthlessness—it's the most logical of emotions. You don't have any friends in the underworld. You'll never have any friends in the underworld!

Chapter 4
If you let someone get close to you, it will only hurt more when they betray you, Reen seemed to whisper in her mind.

Chapter 7
Vin almost smiled back. Reen's training came to her rescue. The man who wants you to trust him is the one you must fear the most. Her brother's voice almost seemed to whisper in her head. It had grown stronger since she'd met Kelsier, as if her instincts were on edge.

Chapter 8
Vin took a seat in one of the stiffly upholstered maroon chairs, tucking her feet up beneath her. She knew what the problem was. Kelsier had been showing her too much respect, making her feel too important. She was beginning to think that she deserved to be part of his secret confidences. Reen's laughter in the back of her mind discredited those thoughts, and she sat, annoyed at both herself and Kelsier, feeling ashamed, but not exactly certain why.

Chapter 16
They're fools, Reen's voice whispered. This entire plan will end in disaster—and your death will be your own fault for not leaving when you could.

Chapter 20
Is that a good enough reason to let them get you killed? Reen's voice asked.

Chapter 30
However, a voice from within—a voice she had nearly forgotten—began to speak. Of course he left you, Reen whispered. Of course he abandoned you. Everyone will betray you, Vin. What did I teach you?

I never came back for you, Reen whispered. He won't either. The voice felt so real—it was almost like she could hear him beside her.

Chapter 31
You should just be angry at yourself, Reen's voice whispered. You're the one who let them get close. Now they're all just going to leave you.

Chapter 34
Then he towed her away. Vin continued to struggle weakly, but she was growing numb. In the back of her mind, she heard Reen's voice.

See. I told you he would leave you. I warned you.

I promised you. . . .

Epilogue
A whispered voice came from the back of her mind, speaking in Reen's voice. Go back.

I find it interesting that after all the mistrust Reen's voice seemed to be creating, he still says go back at the end. It's actually a lot like the Mist Spirit; driving and antagonizing and attacking and finally stabbing Elend at the end, only to teach her how to save him afterwards... Suspicious.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on October 08, 2008, 07:28:46 PM
Quote
I never came back for you, Reen whispered. He won't either. The voice felt so real—it was almost like she could hear him beside her.

That would probably be the most likely one that is really a voice. However, I couldn't even a venture a guess to what either Ruin or Preservation's purpose is with any of Reen's voice-whispers.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: darxbane on October 08, 2008, 08:46:31 PM
Obviously Ruin wanted to make sure Its "Hero" gave away the power.  Preservation would try to make her keep the power.  I am not saying which was which, but I think someone would accept a familiar voice in their head more than a strange one. 
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: kbob_o on October 08, 2008, 09:20:27 PM
I find it interesting that after all the mistrust Reen's voice seemed to be creating, he still says go back at the end. It's actually a lot like the Mist Spirit; driving and antagonizing and attacking and finally stabbing Elend at the end, only to teach her how to save him afterwards... Suspicious.

Remember though... Ruin seems to demand. What we think is Preservation whispers. And by 'we' I mean 'I'.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on October 08, 2008, 10:00:31 PM
Just thought I'd mention here that Brandon's newest blog post confirms each of the Allomantic metals have a Hemalurgic ability. (And a Feruchemical one.)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on October 08, 2008, 11:48:04 PM
Just thought I'd mention here that Brandon's newest blog post confirms each of the Allomantic metals have a Hemalurgic ability. (And a Feruchemical one.)


Curses, you beat me to it.

Well, I think that pretty well states that Hemalurgy is more than a combination magic system. Each metal would have to have different properties...
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on October 10, 2008, 07:07:32 PM
I agree with you on which Reen voices are important.  The ones you didn't select area all lessons that Reen tought to Vin that she is remembering, these are what she thinks Reen would say to her now, or what the voice of Reen is saying to her now.  Laid out like that the difference is quit obvious.
The voice seems stronger after she meets Kelsier, is this important?
The Chapter 30 one felt so real that she could feel him beside her.
I also find the mistrust thing interesting.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: GreenMonsta on October 10, 2008, 08:56:20 PM
What Hemalurgy metals are are the same as Allomantic metals? Ok then I guess I was way off.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on October 10, 2008, 09:23:10 PM
I also think hemalurgy MUST have something to do with ability stealing, the Inquisitor with the Feruchemist's speed, the sacrificed keepers, and the special purpose for skaa mistings certainly confirms this.
I also think there must be something more to it than that.
Several days my friends, and all these pages of theorizing will be moot.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: VegasDev on October 10, 2008, 09:28:12 PM
I don't think they will be moot. The next new book is a ways off and we'll need the humor to tide us over. Plus, it may prove useful to Brandon, knowing what things threw us off, which ones were easy to figure out, etc. so that his next series of books are that much better.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Wielder on October 10, 2008, 09:28:22 PM
I agree with you on which Reen voices are important.  The ones you didn't select area all lessons that Reen tought to Vin that she is remembering, these are what she thinks Reen would say to her now, or what the voice of Reen is saying to her now.  Laid out like that the difference is quit obvious.
The voice seems stronger after she meets Kelsier, is this important?
The Chapter 30 one felt so real that she could feel him beside her.
I also find the mistrust thing interesting.

Or perhaps the voices were part of Ruin's little charade.  I don't necessarily believe this, by the way--I do think it's a def. possibility though.

I don't think they will be moot. The next new book is a ways off and we'll need the humor to tide us over. Plus, it may prove useful to Brandon, knowing what things threw us off, which ones were easy to figure out, etc. so that his next series of books are that much better.

Agreed.  Not much else to say.  ;D
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Czanos on October 10, 2008, 10:13:58 PM
Also, there's a good possibility that not every fact will be explained at first. These threads can then turn to the resolution of those facts.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on December 20, 2008, 08:36:56 AM
HERO OF AGES SPOILER::

So, My theories and questions are getting bogged down in the spoilers thread, so I thought I'd put them here in this nice comfortable Hemalurgy thread, it' been a while.

The inquisitors in book 3 have been confusing me.  Firstly, the inquisitor Vin and Elend kill in chapter three has one EXTRA spike, which is pewter, it's only pewter spike (which seem to give him the speed feruchemical ability).  My question is this:  Don't all inquisitors have the healing ability of gold, and so shouldn't all inquisitors have one pewter spike to start out with, and shouldn't this one have two pewter spikes (one for healing, one for speed). 
My other question is if hemalurgists wear gold minds, because gold has no known hemalurgic ability, and thus, Inquisitors have no gold spike.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on December 20, 2008, 09:25:52 AM
I don't have my HoA copy here, but I am fairly certain that there is a different metal spike which grants Feruchemical Physical abilities (like speed) and Feruchemical Mental Abilities (like health).
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Reaves on December 20, 2008, 03:25:24 PM
This thought is unrelated, but I was wondering what would happen if you reused an Inquisitor's hemalurgical spike. All the evidence says you probably can reuse it; the koloss have been reusing theirs and TenSoon took OreSeurs spike.

But basically, lets say the Inquisitor was a Seeker to start out with, then got a spike taken from another Seeker, in addition to his others.
If someone managed to kill said Inquisitor and then take that spike, would that person get the abilities of the spike plus the abilities that the Inquisitor had to start out with? Or just the abilities of the spike?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: GoryCat on December 20, 2008, 04:37:10 PM
I don't have my HoA copy here, but I am fairly certain that there is a different metal spike which grants Feruchemical Physical abilities (like speed) and Feruchemical Mental Abilities (like health).

Yes; Gold does physical, Brass does mental.  Somehow health doesn't seem like a mental ability; the Inquisitors sure don't have much mental health.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: douglas on December 20, 2008, 08:11:43 PM
No, it's Pewter that steals Feruchemical Physical abilities.  Considering that Brandon strives for consistency and logic in his magic systems, I think gold's health should actually be a Feruchemical Temporal ability (affects time required to heal and gold is a Temporal metal for Allomancy), but the chart doesn't list a known ability to steal Feruchemical Temporal powers and I'd think it would be there since Feruchemical Health is (I think) a standard Inquisitor ability.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on December 20, 2008, 09:22:57 PM
This thought is unrelated, but I was wondering what would happen if you reused an Inquisitor's hemalurgical spike. All the evidence says you probably can reuse it; the koloss have been reusing theirs and TenSoon took OreSeurs spike.

But basically, lets say the Inquisitor was a Seeker to start out with, then got a spike taken from another Seeker, in addition to his others.
If someone managed to kill said Inquisitor and then take that spike, would that person get the abilities of the spike plus the abilities that the Inquisitor had to start out with? Or just the abilities of the spike?

I would think just the abilities of the spike. Though, that largely depends where said spike is placed.

No, it's Pewter that steals Feruchemical Physical abilities.  Considering that Brandon strives for consistency and logic in his magic systems, I think gold's health should actually be a Feruchemical Temporal ability (affects time required to heal and gold is a Temporal metal for Allomancy), but the chart doesn't list a known ability to steal Feruchemical Temporal powers and I'd think it would be there since Feruchemical Health is (I think) a standard Inquisitor ability.

Now I'm really just sad I don't have my Hero of Ages copy with me, because I did an analysis of the Hemalurgical powers. I didn't find out much, but I did find out this:

For every quartet of metals, there is one metal which steals Allomantic attributes in that quartet and one that steals Feruchemical attributes in that quartet (it's important to remember that with Feruchemy, things don't make as much sense, I think. I believe "warmness" is under the Mental metals, which is not as intuitive as Allomancy's organization). The other two Hemalurgical metals in said quartet steal non-Metallic properties.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Comatose on December 21, 2008, 04:39:08 AM
My copy is at school.  I was pretty sure gold would be physical.
Does the inquisitor even have a brass spike?  I thought they were just bronze, steel, and pewter.
Also there was no atium spike, was he unable to burn the temporal metals?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on December 21, 2008, 05:19:56 AM
Gold is not physical, it's temporal. From what I remember, Atium stole Allomantic Temporal properties, and therefore Gold steals Feruchemical Temporal properties. Being in the Temporal quartet, it must be as such.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: little wilson on December 21, 2008, 08:39:19 AM
Using the back of HoA, this is what I've got:

Allomantic Physical Metals

Iron:
Feruchemy stores Physical Weight
Hemalurgy steals Human Strength

Steel:
Feruchemy stores Physical Speed
Hemalurgy steals Allomantic Physical Powers

Tin:
Feruchemy stores Physical Senses
Hemalurgy steals Human Senses

Pewter:
Feruchemy stores Physical Strength
Hemalurgy steals Feruchemical Physical Powers


Allomantic Mental Metals

Brass:
Feruchemy stores Warmth
Hemalurgy steals Feruchemical Mental Attributes

Zinc:
Feruchemy stores Mental Speed
Hemalurgy steals Human Emotional Fortitude

Copper:
Feruchemy stores Memories
Hemalurgy steals Human Mental Fortitude

Bronze:
Feruchemy stores Wakefulness
Hemalurgy steals Allomantic Mental Powers


Allomantic Enhancement Metals

Aluminum:
Feruchemy is unknown,
Hemalurgy steals Allomantic Enhancement Powers

Duralumin:
both unknown


Allomantic Temporal Metals (kind of)

Atium:
Feruchemy stores Age
Hemalurgy steals Allomantic Temporal Powers

Malatium:
both unknown

Gold:
Feruchemy stores Health
Hemalurgy is unknown

Electrum:
both unknown


Based on this, Feruchemy can be split into two groups: Physical Powers and Mental Attributes. I see nothing about Feruchuemical Temporal...unless it's one of the Feruchemy or Hemalurgy unknowns.

Hope this helps for those of you without your copies of HoA....
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on December 21, 2008, 06:36:12 PM
That's extremely helpful, wilson. Thanks!

I would still say that the two Hemalurgical powers still missing are Feruchemical Temporal Powers and Feruchemical Enhancement powers. It seems like a logical extrapolation.

Two things I would note about the chart:

On the Physical and Mental metals, the metals which steal Allomantic or Feruchemical powers are the alloys. For Temporal and Enhancement, this is not true (though, with atium not actually being a real metal on the chart, I'm sure some things would fall into place better).

Also interesting is trying to predict which metal will have the Allomantic stealing for the quartet or the Feruchemical for the quartet (since these two are present in every quartet of metals). It's quite a difficult feat. I will still classify metals with the typical Allomantic External/Internal and Pushing/Pulling for convenience. It appears that a Hemalurgical power (say, Allomantic stealing) is not officially designated to a particular metal in a quartet. For example, Steel (External Pushing) steals Allomantic Powers, but Bronze (Internal Pushing) steals Allomantic Powers for the mental metals. There appears to be no correlation there.

Not to mention the weird stuff happening on the second half of the chart, with Aluminum, as a base metal (and therefore pulling) getting an Allomantic stealing attribute. Grah.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: GreenMonsta on December 21, 2008, 06:41:47 PM
I miss this thread. . . .   So many good times.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: hoid354 on December 22, 2008, 03:23:15 AM
I am glad you started this thread.  Let's get rolling.  I was reading MB2 Chapter 27's annotation and EUOL mentions that Zane cutting himself quiets the voice in his head, and this has something to do with the properties of Hemalurgy.  Of course, he then basically RAFO's us, but the connection to blood and Hemalurgy is again shown.

Another Hemalurgy possibility is, of course, Vin's earring.  Her mother kills her sister then jabs the earring into Vin's ear.  She also pushes away the mists at the end of MB2, and can't draw on the mists again like she did at the end of MB1, when her earring was pushed out by TLR.  Pretty good evidence, I'd say.

In addition to Chaos' points on Steel Inquisitors, I would also add that they seem to possess additional powers beyond that of a Mistborn, like incredible healing powers, and the ability to "see" the blue lines from even the smallest amounts of metal, so much so that they can see things in great detail purely through Allomancy.

Finally, should we spend any time discussing how the SI's feel pain from the spikes based on their emotions?  Marsh and the lead Inky (Kar?), mention the pain briefly at different times.    That's all I have for now.
wow, you really called that early on... didnt even think about that ( i forgot vin's mother killed her sister with the earring)
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: little wilson on December 22, 2008, 04:40:34 AM
I would still say that the two Hemalurgical powers still missing are Feruchemical Temporal Powers and Feruchemical Enhancement powers. It seems like a logical extrapolation.

That actually works. I didn't really study it when I was writing it out, but it's a Physical Metal that gives Hemalurgy the power to steal both Feruchemical Physical and Allomantic Physical. Same with Mental for Feruchemy and Allomancy. With Temporal, Electrum isn't known, nor is Cadmium and Cerrobend....And the Hemalurgical Feruchemical Enhancement stealer could be Duralumin, or it could be Nicrosil or Chromium....

The question I have is this: Since we know that Allomancy separates into the four categories, is that separation the same for Feruchemy? Obviously the storing for the metals in the A. Phys. Metals are F. Phys. But can the same be said of the storing for the A. Mental Metals? Are Warmth and Wakefulness F. Mental Attributes? And is Health a F. Temporal Attribute? It would make sense....

I'll have to look it over some more to figure out the logic of the rest of it...Which may be hard since Nicrosil, Chromium, Cadmium, and Cerrobend aren't even on there....And Atium and Malatium are...Oh well. I'll work with it....But first I need to write. I'm gonna try to pull a mini Raethe-day tomorrow (writing 25k in one day....but I'm only going for about...10k. Maybe....). And then I'll look over this....
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on December 22, 2008, 06:55:40 AM
That actually works. I didn't really study it when I was writing it out, but it's a Physical Metal that gives Hemalurgy the power to steal both Feruchemical Physical and Allomantic Physical. Same with Mental for Feruchemy and Allomancy. With Temporal, Electrum isn't known, nor is Cadmium and Cerrobend....And the Hemalurgical Feruchemical Enhancement stealer could be Duralumin, or it could be Nicrosil or Chromium....

The question I have is this: Since we know that Allomancy separates into the four categories, is that separation the same for Feruchemy? Obviously the storing for the metals in the A. Phys. Metals are F. Phys. But can the same be said of the storing for the A. Mental Metals? Are Warmth and Wakefulness F. Mental Attributes? And is Health a F. Temporal Attribute? It would make sense....

The Hemalurgical Feruchemical Enhancement metal cannot be duralumin. Looking at the eight base metals, each pair of metals have one Metallic attribute (either Allomantic or Feruchemical) and one other trait. Never does a pair have both Allomantic and Feruchemical stealing in it. So it is safe to assume that the Feruchemical Enhancement metal is either Chromium or Nicrosil.

I would think that the divisions are the same for all three Metallic Arts, because it would kind of just be needlessly complicated any other way.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on January 20, 2009, 06:53:08 AM
I just have one question. At the beginning of book 3, Vin and Elend fought an Inquisitor with a hemalurgical spike that gave him the feruchemial power of speed. That power is stored in steel, and hemalurgy apparently steals allomancy from steel. So where'd the speed come from?

I miss this thread too, Green.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on January 20, 2009, 06:57:28 AM
I don't remember that they explicitly mentioned what kind of spike it was.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: little wilson on January 20, 2009, 07:01:35 AM
He probably had a steel spike in him, but I think he must've had a Pewter spike, too. Pewter as a Hemalurgical spike would give the Inquisitor Feruchemical Physical powers, and speed is a physical power, and since it's stored as a F. Phys., that would mean a pewter spike...I think.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on January 20, 2009, 07:05:23 AM
I don't think they do. I just remember that they talk about how the inquisitor is faster than should be possible, even with allomancy and that the general consensus was that it sounded a whole lot like feruchemy. The feruchemial metal for speed is steel, so the logical connection is that the inquisitor was steeling feruchemy with a steel spike.

Now as to whether this is a consistency problem that Brandon didn't notice or whether it is proof that hemalurgy can steal both allomancy and feruchemy (or whether I'm reading way too far into this and there really isn't a problem at all) remains to be seen.

Wilson - That makes sense, but if you remember, when Sazed taps speed he taps a Steelmind. I don't know that it's possible for a pewter spike to give the feruchemiel power of steel, though you are right, it does say physical powers rather than just strength.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: little wilson on January 20, 2009, 07:11:02 AM
Sazed is working off of Feruchemy, and Steel stores speed for Feruchemy. But in Hemalurgy, steel steals Allomantic Physical Powers (I think). The only way to get F. Physical powers (which speed is) in Hemalurgy is to have a pewter spike.  At least, that's the way that I see it. I could be wrong.

EDIT: In case this doesn't sense, I'm working off the idea that the Feruchemical Physical powers are the powers that are given by the physical metals. But those physical metals are physical in Allomancy. I'm just assuming that those same metals are Physical in Feruchemy as well. So the Feruchemical Physical powers are these: Weight, Speed, Senses, and Strength. In order for a Hemalurgist to get these F. powers, they would need a pewter spike, because pewter steals F. Physical powers.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Andrew the Great on January 20, 2009, 07:36:46 AM
Right, I'm getting the logic. It's just a little weird to me still that pewter grants steel's power. I can see how it would work, it's just weird.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: douglas on January 20, 2009, 06:58:59 PM
With having to steal Allomancy, Feruchemy, enhanced normal human traits, and who knows what else, each hemalurgical metal has to have multiple related things it can steal.  Making the groupings solely by the metal involved leaves nowhere to put the non-metallic-art thefts.  Instead, Brandon grouped them by Allomancy vs Feruchemy vs non-metallic first, and by group for the metallic ability stealers.  All four Allomantic physical abilities are stolen by steel.  All Feruchemical physical abilities are stolen by pewter.  The specific ability stolen depends on what the killed person had and where the spike is placed.

Also, I specifically remember Elend and Vin inspecting the Inquisitor's body and commenting about how he has a pewter spike in addition to the spikes they're used to.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: little wilson on January 20, 2009, 07:34:56 PM
Also, I specifically remember Elend and Vin inspecting the Inquisitor's body and commenting about how he has a pewter spike in addition to the spikes they're used to.

I remember that too. I don't have HoA with me right now (my brother's reading it), but I swear I recall them mentioning something about a pewter spike and how they hadn't seen that in the Inquisitors killed before.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: happyman on January 20, 2009, 10:16:17 PM
Yeah, it all makes sense.  Remember that Hemalurgy's raison d'ętre is to steal other powers.  If you keep that in mind, then the assignment of the different types of metals makes more sense.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: deathly5 on March 20, 2009, 07:31:31 AM
(Don't know if this has been mentioned) In one of the captions at the top of the chapters also mentioned that what allomantic power and probably feruchemical power gained was based on where the spike was placed within the body.
It mentions this in the caption of page 249 of the third book and page 283 also of the third book.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: hixson2000 on July 21, 2010, 09:23:40 AM
I haven't read all the posts but I just wanted to mention that the Word Hemalurgy comes from the root word, whether its Latin or Greek i'm not sure,  "Hemal"-urgy means blood.  As we know the inquisitors are made through the stakes, and blood and so forth.  For example take the word Hemorrhage, "Hemo" which means a loss of blood, and Hemoptysis, which means to cough up blood.  Probably been said but if not I thouth it was interesting
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Chaos on July 21, 2010, 02:45:45 PM
Yeah, it has. This topic has been dead for a while now, which is rational since there isn't much to theorize about Hemalurgy anymore, with MB3 long since released.
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Fireborn on July 22, 2010, 10:38:00 PM
One thing that perplexes me is that Atium is the wild card, it can steal any other power or attribute stolen by Hemalurgy.  So what do the Atium alloys steal?
Title: Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
Post by: Ari54 on July 23, 2010, 08:38:00 PM
One thing that perplexes me is that Atium is the wild card, it can steal any other power or attribute stolen by Hemalurgy.  So what do the Atium alloys steal?

Well, I recall Brandon saying Atium steals things more efficiently too, (less wastage, more staying power when a spike isn't impaled) so I assume an Atium alloy would just steal the same power but somewhere between the efficiency of the two alloyed metals.