Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Chaos on March 03, 2008, 07:17:32 PM
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I discovered something very interesting as I was reading through the MB1 annotations. http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/163/Mistborn-Chapter-Thirty-Four-Part-Two says an interesting fact about the Lord Ruler.
I put the Lord Ruler in black and white--rather than just black, as I'd originally planned--to give metaphoric reference to his belief that he is God. He's both black and white--he encompasses all, and controls all. Of course, he's faking. In the mythology of this world, there are two forced--Ruin and Preservation--and he really only touched one of the two powers. But, then, we'll have more on that in later books.
Ruin and Preservation. This is probably the most crucial piece of information I've uncovered from the MB1 annotations (and yes, it took a herculean effort to say "crucial" instead of "interesting" a third time). I'm fairly certain this hasn't been discussed in the forum yet, so, let's talk about it here.\
Obviously this is a colossal revelation to... well, everything. The Allomancy-Feruchemy-Hemalurgy triads of magics are probably influenced, and most important, the exact nature of the Well of Ascension.
So let's think about this for a minute. The Well, of course, has a lot of power. Since Brandon just said the Lord Ruler touched one of those powers, its the one at the Well. That means we have either Ruin or Preservation to decide from here. This is the important part. We can presume that the Well Spirit inside there (locked away or imprisoned, whatever) is malevolent, sending the Deepness to cause chaos and "ruin" in order to make a Hero set it free. It lends itself to the whole Ruin mechanic there.
And really, the Lord Ruler isn't Mary Poppins. He is quite malevolent himself, and I'm pretty sure that he's responsible for the Ashmounts and the lack of green plants in the Final Empire (I say "pretty sure" because without MB3 out, there could always be something we don't know. Like if the Deepness actually was responsible for it. That's implausible, but I'm just saying. It could be a lot of things). If the Well, essentially, is the quintessential Ruin force, and the Lord Ruler got his power from there, then his power also derives from Ruin.
But then again, in a sense, the Lord Ruler "preserved" the world from certain destruction that the Well Spirit, or perhaps we should be calling the Ruin Entity or something along those lines, would have caused. If that's the case, that totally destroys my theory there.
If the Lord Ruler touched Ruin like I think he did, it could explain why he's a lot more evil. We don't exactly know the effect of what will happen as someone takes the Well's power for himself. Vin describes it like she would have to burn all the power away in a few instances. But you gotta wonder... the Lord Ruler can pierce copperclouds and has more power than even his Allomancy/Feruchemy could do, it seems. I doubt that instead of freeing the Ruin Entity, having it live inside you for a thousand years probably doesn't make you any more good, just more evil (I would think a Preservation influence would whip the Lord Ruler to not do his horrible atrocities).
It's logical to assume that if the Well of Ascension, as we know it, is merely the sum of the Ruin force, there could be a second Well that has the power of Preservation, just for balance sakes. That doesn't make any sense, but it's possible.
Of course, if the Lord Ruler actually touched Preservation at the Well, and the Ruin spirit also lives there (by some strange paradox), then the Well has both powers. But now I'm just confusing myself. Feel free to interpret this information any way you want. God knows I'm just perplexing myself with all of this.
But the whole Ruin/Preservation duality has to be recognized for MB3, that much is certain.
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Good catch. How many people read the annotations?
The names Ruin and Preservation are mentioned in MB2. Did you catch the reference? (I can't remember if they were mentioned at all in the first book.)
The dichotomy plays a large role in the third book, and once you read it, certain things in the first couple books will make a lot more sense.
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How do YOU know, lol? That's no fair :P
They are mentioned in MB2? I don't think it said that explicitly, or at least not obviously. Sigh. Do you know about what chapter it's mentioned in? Because scrolling through annotations is one thing. WoA is a beast to find instances of two words...
EDIT: It's been a couple of months since I read MB1, but yesterday I read all of it after Kelsier's death, and it didn't mention it there, so I doubt highly it is. Before MB3 comes out I'll reread them both, but if it isn't mentioned in the annotations either, it isn't there. :D
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Yes, they're mentioned in the same sentence somewhere in MB2. In a sneaky spot. Now you'll have to go read the whole book again to find it. 8)
I think it would be unfair of me, as an alpha reader who knows the significance, to point out the reference, even in a general area. It's a clue Brandon put in for people who are paying really close attention. I've referred to it before, in this thread (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5644.msg117916). Now that these two names have been found in the annotations, it might be more motivation for someone to keep an eye out for it during a WoA read-through.
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Well, you go tell Brandon that when he mentions something like that in the annotations, he's just asking for forum goers and theorists to pour over it like the tidbit was a drop of water in the Sahara. :D Heck, if he just said something as simple as "Elend pwns" (or if that's too lowly language for him, "Elend is super awesome"), I'm sure that would give credence for a certain theory that says Elend's power is from the WoA, which obviously means he will become the most powerful Mistborn in MB3.
For future reference, I do hate you. So... long... to... wait... for... MB3. Just so you have that all cleared up. I don't know if it's right for me to say, but my anticipation for that book is beyond belief.
Now I will go through all of MB2 to find it! I'll probably stay up pouring until midnight and my eyes are all exhausted beyond belief, tears of fatigue blinding me so I can't even see the words!
*cries* If only there was a Find option like Firefox or Word had... then it would be so easy. Search "Ruin and preservation", then it would tell me the answer I so desire. Though, telling me in that thread you linked me to that it's "out of context" and that they are mentioned in the same sentence, I will find it, by the Lord Ruler! Even if it takes me multiple readthroughs!
And in lieu of a better term (or until I find it), I hereby proclaim that the WoA spirit to be called the Ruin Entity, just because it sounds cool.
On a completely different note, how did I not see that Zane is controlled by the Ruin Entity? I seriously just thought he was some asshole psychopath the entire time in MB2...
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A new clue to research, Awesome! I must admit, when I first starting seeing the posts from Alpha readers like Ookla, I was a little jealous. After thinking about it, however, I realized how much it must be killing them to keep this secret. To be oh so careful with every post, as to not accidentally give something away. To resist the urge to flame some ridiculous theory, or to politely reject and deflect constant requests by people to give them "just a little clue". It can't be easy, although I freely admit I would take that burden! ;D
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its mentioned in mb2 when vin and the kandra are discussing religions. he is telling her that humans are destined to destroy the world using the koloss as their servants. he mentions that we(humans) are of ruin and they(kandra) are of preservation. i think!!! :)
hope that helps
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Kind of going along with the last post -- the kandra were made by the Lord Ruler, right? He kept things the same for a thousand years. The same people in positions of authority (nobles), the same people downtrod (skaa). Preservation of an unpretty world, preservations perhaps to the point of stagnation, but I don't think I'd list him as a force for ruin. The "ruin spirit" at the well certainly didn't get what he wanted out of the Lord Ruler, at least. The Lord Ruler trapped him. I dunno. I could be completely wrong, but that's what jumps to mind.
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its mentioned in mb2 when vin and the kandra are discussing religions. he is telling her that humans are destined to destroy the world using the koloss as their servants. he mentions that we(humans) are of ruin and they(kandra) are of preservation. i think!!! :)
hope that helps
Aha! Well, I've already begun my second WoA readthrough, so if its in the book, I'll find it. As of page 120, neither "ruin" or "preservation" has appeared in the book. Either way, I'll work my through the entire book, because the scenes at the Conventical of Seran were very illuminating about the Steel Inquisitors. They leave mystery, sure, but mystery, in a way, is illuminating. I guess.
Miriel - Yeah, that's why I was kinda confusing myself with this thread's first post. The Lord Ruler is really more Preservation, to the extreme, like you said.
But, maybe it's just my need for symmetry and logic, that if the Well held the power of Preservation (which the Lord Ruler subsequently touched), then how the crap did the Ruin Entity get there? I hope, with all the hordes Brandon has to explain in MB3 (Hemalurgy, the Ruin/Preservation duality, why the ash falls, wrapping up the trilogy in a sweet ending, and let's not forget the 15th/16th metals), he doesn't forget little facts like that :P
darxbane - I would totally take that burden. Hint hint, Brandon. Just saying.
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How long is MB3 going to be? With all this and more to clear up methinks it's going to have to be mighty long. (Heh, the more the better!)
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As long as its not as long as Paolini's Inheritance "trilogy". Supposedly that third book got so long it was split to two books.
But then again, these alpha readers can attest to, they've already read the book. So we know it can't be that long.
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However long it is, I'm sure it will be great. I don't think I found a single page of the first two books that dragged. Getting back to topic, I don't think that the power Rashek took made him evil. Some of Alendi's writings spoke of how Rashek despised the Khlennium (sp?). There are also references that he felt the Terris should be the dominant race. The power of the well simply gave him an opportunity to enact his own philosophies, with the slight adjustment of dominating anyone who disagreed with him or were a threat. If that meant subjugating his own people, then so be it. It was for the good of the world, after all. As to whether he was touching upon Ruin or Preservation, I have no idea. It almost seems like he was preserving his world by keeping it in ruin. I don't know if that makes any sense though.
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well i'm gonna go and steal the theory of balance from wot here just for the heck of it. for every good there must be a bad to compensate (or vice versa if you're the glass half empty type). anyways it would make sense to me that the well must have both ruin and preservation but it then becomes up to the "hero" to determine how it is used. so you could say that the lord ruler preserved the world by pushing back the mists. and in a way you could even say that he used nothing but preservation since it seems likely that Rashek considered his actions justified. but thats not my main point. what if the well spirit is ruin and the mist spirit is preservation? the mist spirit struck me as an ally of sorts. he tried to get sazed to stop vin, stabbed elend so vin would take the power rather than release it, and when that didn't work helped vin to save elend's life. he seems like the perfect avatar for preservation. imo. :)
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That was my thought as well. Preservation is the good force, and Ruin is the evil force. That poses a new question: was the power that Vin released the entity itself, or was the power holding the entity from touching the world freely, like a seal? (now I'm starting to steal from WoT). Of course, we may just be reading too much into this.
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I agree, there's definitely a light/dark and good/evil duality going on. But, like Miriel mentioned, the Lord Ruler is a force of Preservation to the extreme, so much that it stagnates the world. And technically, the Lord Ruler is evil, too, because of all his atrocities. That means even the paragon of Preservation, the Lord Ruler, can be evil.
Therefore, it can be reasonably presumed that good/evil is independent of Ruin and Preservation. Ruin/Preservation are forces, not ideals.
So rather than "good" completely winning out, there will have to be a balance struck at the end of MB3, to prevent another Lord Ruler from existing. Plus, doing something like that seems like the typical, cliche-breaking thing Brandon would do.
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...was the power holding the entity from touching the world freely, like a seal? (
it seems to me that the last sentence of kwann's journal thing said that alendi musn't release the power or it would "release the creature imprisoned there" not a direct quote but i think it was something along those lines. either way it implied that the power was the prison rather than the prisoner and that it is something of a seal.
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I agree, there's definitely a light/dark and good/evil duality going on. But, like Miriel mentioned, the Lord Ruler is a force of Preservation to the extreme, so much that it stagnates the world. And technically, the Lord Ruler is evil, too, because of all his atrocities. That means even the paragon of Preservation, the Lord Ruler, can be evil.
Therefore, it can be reasonably presumed that good/evil is independent of Ruin and Preservation. Ruin/Preservation are forces, not ideals.
So rather than "good" completely winning out, there will have to be a balance struck at the end of MB3, to prevent another Lord Ruler from existing. Plus, doing something like that seems like the typical, cliche-breaking thing Brandon would do.
I wouldn't say the Lord Ruler is evil, per say. Sure, that's the way he seemed, due to the extreme oppression of the skaa and whatnot, but if it's true that the thing in the well is as horrible as we currently believe, and he was keeping said thing at bay, he was doing everyone a big favor. It seemed that it was a big burden on him, too. I think that either Vin and company will have to find a way to re-seal the well spirit and keep it contained the way the Lord Ruler was doing, or perhaps eradicate it entirely.
I would, however, agree that Ruin and Preservation are independent of good and evil. Good and evil are arbitrary terms.
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Eureka! I have discovered the reference! Mists59 is absolutely correct to whatere the reference is. Thank you for that clue :D.
The alpha readers seem hesitant to tell where this reference is. I will mention it precisely. So, if you are a fan who doesn't want the third book ruined before it comes out, I suggest you stop reading this post (and for that matter, future posts that are based on this one). Don't say I didn't warn you.
Page 299, Well of Ascension. Second to last paragraph. Just like mists59 said, it's during the chat where OreSeur discusses religion with Vin.
"Of course not," OreSeur said. "We honor our Contract, even in religion. The stories say that you'll kill yourselves off. You're of Ruin, after all, while the kandra are of Preservation. You're... actually supposed to destroy the world, I believe. Using the koloss as pawns."
I would transcribe more, but I don't want to infringe on Brandon's and Tor's copyrights. Look it up for the full conversation.
This little discussion is so much more than a simple reference to Ruin and Preservation. Let's dissect!
1. Brandon capitalized Ruin and Preservation. That means it's important. We already know they are, but this can just be considered confirmation.
2. "You're of Ruin, after all" OreSeur says. This has some more meaningful implications. First, it means that kandra know of legends. This information just rolls off his tongue, nonchalantly, like it's obvious.
The next couple things go off of the kandra.
3. Earlier on the page, it says that the kandra have a separate religion away from the Lord Ruler's oppression. This is significant because...
4. ...It means that this is how Kelsier found the Eleventh Metal. If kandra are the only things separated from the Lord Ruler, then they would have to be the source of the legends that Kelsier found (see MB1 annotations for more details. Brandon states that he will reveal where Kelsier got these legends in the third book). The question must be asked, then, why the kandra would support Kelsier and tell him legends.
The kandra don't like the Lord Ruler. I've been taking notes on this Well of Ascension readthrough, and I have details supporting this theory.
Page 203 - OreSeur says that more Allomancers existed during the early days of the Final Empire. Mistborn can somehow "find" kandra, and the Lord Ruler was hunting them down with those Mistborn. OreSeur continues that his people created the Contract to stop that hunt.
Furthermore, this animosity is confirmed on Page 118, where Vin recalls that Kelsier said Renoux (OreSeur) had to keep away from Steel Inquisitors and the Lord Ruler.
This is crucial. Earlier in this topic, we came to the consensus that the Lord Ruler touched the Preservation power at the Well of Ascension. As OreSeur says, kandra are of Preservation, humans Ruin. The Lord Ruler, if he is Preservation, perhaps decided to keep the kandra because he and the kandra are both Preservation, but he didn't "create" the kandra. He does not have power over them explicitly. If he had dominance over them, he would not need Mistborn to hunt down the kandra.
Getting back to Kelsier and the kandra. On the aforementioned page 299 of revelation, it says that kandra religion says that they hope that their oppressors (humans) will perish, and they will be free from the Contract. However, they themselves cannot kill humans, because of the Contract. So, to me, it seems logical that if Kelsier was out to hire a kandra (for his plan in MB1) for express purpose of defeating the Lord Ruler, the kandra would be ecstatic to help him.
Going off of the Ruin/Preservation duality, the kandra must know the obvious fact that defeating the Lord Ruler will cause chaos. Well of Ascension shows this explicitly. Warlords are pining for control. People are using the koloss as pawns (not effectively, but still). They are destroying themselves, like OreSeur says.
They did not help Kelsier because they like Kelsier. They want to help Kelsier so the Lord Ruler, humanity's source of Preservation, would die, so humans would do what comes naturally to them. Cause war. Chaos. And well, Ruin. After the years of Ruin, all humanity would die, and the kandra would no longer need the Contract, because you can't serve a people who are dead.
I'm giddy that I'm the one to discover this. Like Kwaan :D.
There's one thing I haven't found. On the first page, Ookla links me here (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5644.msg117916). There, other Alpha Readers say that the Ruin Entity's name is explicitly referenced in MB2. I've discovered the reference of Ruin and Preservation, but the Ruin Entity's name eludes me.
Suggestions, here? The best I can come up with is that Humanity is the Ruin Entity, or some weird crap like that. Or the Ruin Entity isn't mysterious, but a human. Something like that. Unless I'm missing something, which is entirely possible.
Either way, I feel very certain Kelsier got his legends from the kandra. That much is certain.
And when I'm done with Well of Ascension, I'm going to make another topic. This one about direct references to Steel Inquisitors, in a hope to get some information about Hemalurgy. But that's for another day.
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Ruin is the name I was talking about. You don't need to say "entity" with it.
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Oh. Silly me, trying to personify it. I guess it makes sense that the thing at the Well of Ascension would be something like that.
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Good work on this Chaos! Two points: First, I believe that Tensoon (who you are referring to as Oreseur) tells Vin that the Lord Ruler created both the Kandra and the Koloss. This information is how Vin figures out how to control the Koloss the same way she controls Tensoon in the fight against Zane. Secondly, just because Tensoon says that humans are of Ruin, doesn't make it true. You are taking the point of view of a creature who's race has been oppressed and controlled by humans their entire existence. Tensoon is not exactly objective on this subject. I am not saying you are wrong, I am just considering another possibility. I didn't think about Kelsier learning about the 11th metal from Oresuer, but that sounds like a strong theory.
Ooh, I just reread Ookla's post, and I am pretty sure he is saying that the Well Spirit's name is Ruin. That would mean that the Mist Spirit is Preservation. I am not shocked by this news, but it does put some questions to rest.
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Just to be clear, I'm not saying anything about who or what Preservation is.
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i have to agree with darxbane on this one that tensoon mentioning Ruin and Preservation and capitalizing them means that he's fully correct. i mean most people in mb1 (and maybe mb2 i don't remember) when referring to the lord ruler use Him just like any orthodox religion would refer to their deity. that doesn't neccessarily make him god. we know for a fact he was simply human. however, i don't doubt that the religion of the kandra (and hopefully TenSoon) will come up again in HoA.
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You know, I actually... sort of forgot OreSeur was TenSoon. I have a habit, once I pass the halfway mark, to read very rapidly, and I tend to miss these details. Zane's a really good example. Before this second readthrough, I was certain that he was just some insane asshole. I didn't like him very much.
And I'm willing to believe that TenSoon's words are correct, that humans are of Ruin. This is primarily because of other stories, like ones where robots take over the world, that the robots always say humans are going to destroy themselves. It seems that all in MB2 there is chaos going on in the world, which seems like exactly what Ruin would want.
Now, like you said darxbane, just because TenSoon says humans are of Ruin doesn't make it true. Conversely, though, it certainly doesn't mean it's false. From a pure storytelling perspective, when you have Vin talking with TenSoon, she trying to learn something about the kandra, when you actually reveal something, you can't just go around in the third book and say the interesting tidbit is completely first.
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If it was revealed by an omnipotent narrator, then I would agree, but Tensoon's bias must be take into the acount. It is not a stretch to believe they have twisted the truth somewhat over the years. Look at society in real life. People have convinced themselves that killing innocent people is OK as long as it is in the act of killing "infidels". In the 1600's, the Catholic church murdered thousands of people for "witchcraft". Their crime? In many cases, being midwives and herbalists, which people trusted more than affluent doctors. There is a way to rationalize any action or belief. Hope requires something to believe in and, for the Kandra, what is more hopeful than the death of their oppressors? And to rationalize that? Well their destructive and evil, so maybe they all deserve to die! Look how surprised Tensoon is by Vin; she is different than any other human he has ever known, so much so that he risked his life (and his contract) to save her. If he is willing to do this, than he must at least be questioning his beliefs. If one human is good, than others can be too.
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Point taken.
Now, I finished Well of Ascension. I discovered something interesting, one which leads me to believe that Preservation, ironically, can also have an effect upon people. Sazed, while fighting Marsh in the climax, had his rings punched into his skin. Almost immediately (two paragraphs), he heard a benevolent voice telling him those were rings, not coins.
Preservation, it seems, also can speak through people with metal in them, just as Ruin can.
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The way you said that ten soon was questioning his beliefs reminds me of Hrathen from Elantris, when at the end he is question ing his faith.
And I think that voice was just Sazed talking to himself, personally, but I could be wrong.
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I doubt it. When we are having things like super manipulative, god-like forces at work, I find it hard to believe that strange voices aren't caused by either Preservation or Ruin. There's another instance of this, where Elend kills this koloss as he's leaving Jastes for the first time, where a voice tells him how to defeat the beast. This wouldn't be strange, but it says that "the voice didn't come from Tindwyl, or anything he'd ever heard before." Something like that. It just seems odd that it would come from nowhere.
Though I see where you are going. I went through all of WoA thinking Zane was just some insane madman. Now I realize Ruin was manipulating him all along.
Now, here's the time for radical theories. I'm under the impression that if Ruin has some sort of external mechanism to exist in, like the mist, then Preservation should have something similar.
I think, then, (with very little to no evidence to support this) that the Ashmounts and ash itself is Preservation. Somehow.
Discuss!
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Interesting theory, I was wondering how the ashmounts were going to play into things, I personally assumed that they were created whenb the lord ruler reshaped the earth. The way I pictured it, He basically picked up the land where the well, was, and moved it to the center of the empire, and the asmounts were a result of this huge landmass being set down. I'll have to reread that part about Elend. Another thing I was wondering about, it do the mists only kill when they come during the day? Because if it is, the maybe there's a day-night paralell between preservation and ruin. Preservation-Night-Benevolent Mists, Ruin-Day-Killing Mists. I'm not sure about it, it's just something that came to mind
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Well, I don't think Brandon would put in the Ashmounts and give them names if they weren't important in some ways.
I like the Day/Night parallel thing... that's certainly an excellent addition to the theory.
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Like I said, it only works if we assume the mists only kill during the day, which reminds me, in the final few chapters when Vin is releasing Ruin, is it night or day? I distinctly remember mists killing people at that part, and that could through my whole theory out the window.
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i'm actually pretty sure that was at night. it mentions that most of those people were part of the church of the survivor who believed that it was safe to go out at night. so i'm pretty sure that they were out at night and were still getting killed.
but i think there is definately some connection between Preservation and the mists though. i mean He is the 'mist-spirit' after all.
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It's strange. The mists seem to be something both Ruin (through killing) and Preservation (through the mist spirit) can use. I wonder why that is, exactly? I mean, both forces are essentially opposites, so why are they both wielding the mists?
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i guess that would be the $60,000 question wouldn't it?
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Something is definitely missing here. The most confusing thing about the alleged mist killings is how random and arbitrary the victims seem to be. Right behind that is how it only seems to happen away from Luthadel, except at the very end of the book. Finally, not everyone who is attacked dies. You would think that if Ruin was using the mists to kill It wouldn't screw it up so often. What if the deaths from the mists are not related to Ruin itself? Maybe (and this is a WILD theory) the people who die can unknowingly draw on the power of the mists. When they do, they can't control it and it kills them. Crazy, huh? Must be Monday!
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I would more likely attribute to the "sickness" and killings from the dichotomy of Ruin vs. Preservation. I mean, if they are opposing forces, maybe they are fighting for which ones live or die? I dunno. My theory needs work.
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when i read it i was kinda hoping that the mists were Preservation and the killings were like the spirit stabbing Elend. i half expected the killings to stop when the spirit's plan failed. course that wen't out the window when they were still going on after the whole well scene was over. there is definately some connection between the mists and both Ruin and Preservation and it's annoying me that i can't figure it out...
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The mist spirit seems to have nothing to do with the mist killings. The people found dead have no marks on them at all. It's almost as if they die of fear. There have been three physical altercations with what we know as the Mist Spirit and people: Alendi's friend, who was stabbed but not killed, Elend, who was stabbed and would have died without Allomantic intervention, and Vin, who felt something grab her, then she fell off the building she was on and her arm felt ice cold for a short time. Her situation was different from the other two, both in that she was not physically wounded, and that the spirit vanished shortly before she was attacked. This could mean that two (or more) entities inhabit the mists. Anything I am missing?
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thats a pretty good summary darxbane. but i think is obvious that the mist spirit inhabits the mists. but is he alone? if not is it Ruin or something(one) that we don't know about yet?
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It has been stated several times that the mists repsond to allomancy and hemalurgy, so perhaps this "Mist Magic" for lack of a better terms, is some advanced form of allomancy, or hemalurgy, or something completely different that only Preservation and Ruin have learned how to use. With allomancer, both the good and bad sides use allomancy, why can't both spirits use the same sort of magic. The mists could just be the medium, just as metals are the medium for allomancy.
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That has potential. One thing to point out: The three magic systems are unique in their interactions with the mists. The mists are attracted to allomancers, repelled by Hemallurgists, and seem to not care one way or the other for Feruchemists. Your point is good, though. At least I have been assuming that, since Ruin can influence people who have Hemallurgy metals, that it would be an opposing force to the mists. That may not be the case, as it can also influence metal minds, which seem to have nothing to do with the mists at all. The only thing I can think of that would preclude Ruin from using the mists is that Ruin seems to be unable to influence Allomancy, which is most closely associated with the mists. Also, the Mist spirit actually uses Allomancy, or at least appears to. Is it October yet?
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Dear lord, by the time it comes October, we'll have figured out the whole book. Or, at the very least, come up with some very convincing theories that sound good enough to be in the book.
I like where this is going. Mists used for Allomancy, and Ruin and Preservation acting through it? That's brilliant. And if Vin's experience has taught us anything, it's that you can use the mists for Allomancy. The triad of magic systems interacting with the mists (and Feruchemy not caring either way), also brilliant. Now we are on the right track: discussing how Ruin/Preservation are related to the magics. Very good indeed.
There's an interesting correlation, though. Feruchemy, perhaps, does not affect the mists because it existed before the Ascension. The Worldbringers stored their prophecies in metalminds. However, Allomancers didn't exist before the Ascension at all. If Hemalurgy is like some opposite Allomancy, or something, it could be a logical conclusion that Hemalurgists, whatever they may be, did not exist before the Ascension, either.
Yet the mists did exist before the Ascension, or at least it is heavily implied/theorized that they did. Perhaps Allomancy is somehow derived from the mists, which would mean that it is derived by either Ruin or Preservation.
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The very beginning of chapter 22 in WoA talks about the mists being both Stability and Chaos. Ruin-Chaos, Preservation-Stability. That seems to fit doesn't it?
I was also wondering what the mists are, are they really simply water vapour, or are they something else. Also, I'm guessing the Kandra, Mistwraiths, and Koloss fit in to the equation somehow. TenSoon says the Kandra, are creatures of Preservation, and Humans are of Ruin. What are Koloss and Mistwraith of then. We know they are all related somehow. I also noticed that there are three magic systems and three Mist Creatures (I'm lumping Koloss into this categry even thought they have little to do with mists).
I like the idea of the different Magic systems reacting with them mists in different ways. It's almost like magnets, hemalurgy pushing, allomancy pulling, feruchemy neutral.
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That's a good find. I have some rereading to do. I still think there is something we're missing, though. Koloss and Kandra are both creations of the LordRuler. Mistwraiths may be as well. How they were created? I don't think that detail is available yet, but the mists could very well be a factor in their creation.
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Could the mists be Gaseous Metal???
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Could the mists be Gaseous Metal???
thats a good idea but i doubt it. the mists would be extremely hot if they were full of tin and pewter and the like in gas form. it takes a lot of heat to get them to that point. however, i like the idea that they could be some kind of fourth magic system. although i think its definatley somehow connected to allomancy. i mean vin can sense the mist spirit with bronze as if its burning metals and she draws upon the mists to enhance her own allomancy. maybe its repelled by hemallurgy simply because its not allomancy. but then we don't know much about hemallurgy. it could be some kind of bastardization of allomancy and thats why it repels the mists and feruchemy doesn't. who knows, i'm just kinda thinking aloud.
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The mists are magical water vapor, lol. Elend does mention it is water vapor, but obviously, it has mystical properties to it that we have yet to comprehend.
I think the kandra and koloss were created when the Ascension took place. Rashek had the power for himself, but that means he burned it away like Allomancy, all in an instant. He probably created them all from that burst of creation.
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hmmm...you mentioned that Rashek burned the power away like allomancy. i wonder if the mist is the gaseous form of whatever liquid was in the well. it obviously wasn't water in there.
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I think it was actually liquid metal. I don't have my WoA copy with me at the moment, but I'm almost absolutely certain it was metal.
The mists could very well have something to do with the Well, though. We have to remember that the Well existed before the Ascension, and for all we know, there could have been Heroes before even Alendi came into the picture. A gigantic cycle of Ruin trying to free itself... and the mists existed before the Ascension, too.
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ya i think your correct in that it is some type of metal. but if its at liquid form at room temperature like water is then i would figure it could be vapor like water could and possibly be the mists. just a theory but i figured i'd put it out there.
but i'm still wondering how Ruin got trapped in the well in the first place. it seems to be a pretty powerful being but we don't know its nature well enough to know its limitations. but i got the impression from the books that Ruin may have been what 'summoned' the mists.
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Are the mists actually of a substance? Does it mention in the books that people who walk through the mists actually get wet? What if it is ethereal? It feels cool on skin and obscures vision, and in many ways behave like fog, but what if it is not actually made of any physical material? The mists were there before Rashek ascended, as Alendi encounters the Mist Spirit during his travels.
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actually i think there are a few rare parts in the books that mention the mist condensating into liquid. i can't find a concrete example at the moment though. ???
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It doesn't have to be a conventional metal, it could be that this metal has a very high boiling point, and that could be why it's not so hot. I'm not sure if I agree with this theory, but since all the magic systems we know of so far seem to be based on metal, and Vin says she burned the mist like metal, it was just a hypothesis. I just reread the part in WoA, and yes, it does say for sure that the Kandra and Koloss were created by the lord ruler, sorry about that. Anyway, if we do go with this metal mist hypothesis, then could we assume it's an alloy tothe metal in the lake near the original position of the well of ascension or the metal elend ate (which could be the same metal). I'm not sure I even believe the mist theory it's just a hypothesis. It might make sense though. One metal gives a person allomancy, the other strengthens it, they would be the same pair. I know most of the pairings do opposite things, but some of them do the similiar. For example: duralumin and aluminum both take metals away, they jsut do it in different ways, so they're not really exact opposites. Anyway, remember, all of this is purely theoreticalm I actually think the mists are probably water vapour of some supernatural nature like the characters in the book believe, but this is just something that came to mind.
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you know you keep mentioning the black lake with the silvery sheen which was originally near the well of ascension. so i looked at the map in the front of the books. number 18 is the black lake and its right near luthadel. i figure thats the same lake. what are the odds that statlin city is on the shore of the black lake?
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I don't think anything is a coincidence anymore. Whose to say that there isn't naturally occurring fog mixed in with the Mists. Statlin City, that's the name I forgot yesterday. that's gotta be where the Atium cache is located. I wonder what other clues will be found there? Not to nitpick, Comatose but I think you mean a very low boiling point. My only issue with this is that the mists appear no matter what the temperature is outside, and now come out even during the day, and even stay in one spot for days at a time. This is not a weather related thing. It is a supernatural phenomenon. Maybe a residue of the power TLR used to change the world? One can only guess.
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I'm fairly certain the mists existed before the Lord Ruler. Since, essentially, the killing mists is the Deepness, then it obviously existed before the Ascension. Perhaps the mists just lingered after the Lord Ruler, existing, but not defeated.
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Your right sorry :-[, gosh I'm saying emabarassing things, sorry. I also said somewhere that pewter was external which it isn't so, that was a goof too.
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You're right about that, Chaos. Alendi talked about the Mist Spirit, but didn't seem too concerned about the mists themselves, if I remember correctly. Maybe they just didn't exist to such an extent. I'm not too sure about the ambigram quest. I have to reread them. :-\
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I think the mists might be another magic system all together, one both Ruin and Preservation can manipulate, Ruin to destroy, and Preservation to manifest itself, or it's messenger- the mist spirit. We know that Ruin can change anything that is written (except if it is set in metal), can change the contents of metal minds, control inquisitors, and we can be farely certin that it's Ruin making the msits come during the day and killing people. We know the Mist Spirit (possibily Preservation or a different entity) can take form in the mist, use emotional allomancy, or something like it, numb things or make poeple faint with a touch (Vin's arm), and can stab people with some sort of knife.
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The Annotations Brandon made for book 1 mention only 3 magic systems, but you never know what surprises await inside EUOL's worlds.
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I believe the secrets must lie within the magic triad and the duality between Ruin and Preservation. Our theoretical knowledge of those is very little, so I doubt there is a fourth magic system. Three is complex enough :P
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I certainly agree with you there, Chaos. For some reason, I keep thinking about Mashadar (Wheel of Time Reference). Could the mists be a living entity/entities? Or, an energy that changes depending on the amount of good or evil in the world?
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Maybe not another entire magic system, but I still believe that that they are defeinately a force that both Ruin and Preservation can maipulate, maybe not anothe rmagic system, but perhaps just a power they both possess. I theorized on the hemalurgy thread that th mists have something to do with that.
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I had an idea yesterday that, despite the evidence to the contrary, the Mists are not the Deepness. Or, at least, not in the way the mists are now.
If they were the Deepness, the would be referenced more. I'm pretty sure that people would make the connection Deepness = mist eventually like they do in current times.
However, Kwaan says the Deepness came on suddenly. Why did it do that? Obviously, that is Ruin's doing, but why not drum up the Deepness all the time? There's no Lord Ruler to stop him.
Or why, for that matter, did the Lord Ruler keep the mists out? If the Deepness wasn't out all the time, that means it isn't a perpetual thing.
Just something to think about.
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That would be quite the twist if the mists weren't the deepness, but I'm pretty sure that they are.
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Okay, so I reread Mistborn 1--or rather finished it yesterday. I have a couple of thoughts. First, the Lord Ruler's throne room looks very, very cool (Chapter 37). It looks like mist, which implies the Lord Ruler is... well, obsessed with the mists.
Furthermore, there is a conversation, I think with Vin and Sazed, where Sazed says that "all the legends agree that the first Allomancers appeared when the mists came out). Now, since the logbook fails to mention Allomancers--or, for that matter, mists existing during the night--we can make the inference that these "legends" are fairly accurate. That implies, then, that the Deepness is not the mists, or at least not the mists we knew in the Lord Ruler's time.
Perhaps the mists are slowly reverting back to their "Deepness" form. Perhaps the mists are not the Deepness at all--which sort of kills book 2, but there is some evidence against the Deepness/Ruin being the mists.
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Let's just say, Chaos2651, that there is a problem with one of your assumptions which means that the quote you found turns out not to be evidence against what you think it's evidence against.
That's a very good find though and a significant clue I don't think I caught the last time I read Mistborn 1. R(Mistborn 3)AFO.
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If you don't mind me tearing apart your words:
1. I hate you for reading MB3. :P Just kidding... a little.
2. Well, then, the quote is evidence about SOMETHING about the mists. That's something--something good. It's just something I don't know about, because MB3 is something we haven't read yet.
Personally, I don't really like my theory there. It makes everything so easy to assume that the Deepness/Ruin is the mists... I just don't know how it all fits together.
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Vin keeps saying that the lord ruler changed the world when he took the power, he proabably changed the mists to stop the deepness, and now that he's gone they are reverting to their origingal form, but something about the log book still bugs me, the fact that he never mentions the mists, except in reference to the mist spirit if the deepness is the mists, wouldn't he immediately connect the two??/
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Maybe... maybe the quote means that Allomancy causes the mists? Or something?
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The mists respond to allomancy, hemalurgy pushes them away, the mists kill and come during the day, and also manifest the mist spirit, hemalurgy requires a blood sacrifice, (possibly skaa blood), allomancy and feruchemy are hereditary, the first allomancers came with the mists, the lord ruler wanted to ensure no two powers mixed. All these things must be connected somehow, and it all comes back to the mists. There's something we are missing about the mists.
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I hope there is. I want MB3 to answer all of these questions, and even if Brandon had 250k words, I am beginning to doubt that questions so vast can all be explained!
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unless, of course, there is a ky point we are missing that unlocks all the answers.
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Well of course we are missing something! :) And, I am sure reading MB3 will answer all of these questions.
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I think there's something we're missing that we can figure out from the books we have though. So far, Brandon's been really good a subtley forshadowing things, making very important things seem very unimportant, often just mentioning them in passing once or twice and then coming back to them later. I'm sure there another secret left to uncover that's in the already published books.
Then again, "there's always another secret." ??? ;D
Modification:
Ok, I've been rereading this thread again, and something jumped out at me. A little earlier there was some talk about the well holding the power of both ruin and presercation and that the hero got to decide. I'm not sure if this has been touchedo n, but it pretty much says this in the book. In the passages about the prophecy I'm pretty sure it says something about the hero bringing ruin in his wake and yet bringing stability or something like that, wouldn't that be the same as finding the balance? Oh, and I've also been thinking, if Ruin is what was trapped in the well, then why is the power that Vin and the Lord Ruler took the "power of creation." My guess would be that the power is not of ruin or preservation, because creation is neither really, preservation is lack of change, ruin is destruction, so would that mean there is a third party? Brandon seems to like threes. Three created creatures, three magic systems... Oh, and have you noticed the magic systems sort of have their own affinity for ruin or preservation. Feruchemists are very much preservation, they store and preserve knowledge, while the Inquisitors, who we know have something to do with hemalurgy, can hear the voice of ruin, does that mean allomancy has something to do with creation. Forgive me, I'm rambling, and not spitting out anything conclusive, but what if Creation is the state of balance between ruin and preservation? Just some food for thought.
And is it jsut me, or is ruin not the only thing that is bound, if ruin is so powerful, and there is supposed to be balance, shouldn't preservation be powerful too, however the mist spirit doesn't seem to be overly powerful, and is unable to speak, maybe ruin and preservation trapped eachother, preservation sealed ruin away with its opposite: creation, and ruin trapped Preservation in the mists, maybe the mists are just ruin's tools, and preservation is trapped wihin them, again, I'm not even sure, this is just the sound of me rambling and my head exploding ;D
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I think that is the first post in this thread that I have agreed with any of. Please don't take that as an insult, it isn't meant as one, it is just a statement that until now I haven't found a theory that I liked, or that struck a chord with me.
What I agreed with, particularly, is that Brandon does seem to be doing threes in this series. Magic systems, etc. And, while all magic systems seem to be taking a "side", so to speak, there is some wiggle room there, I think. I think that each person, in each of those magic systems, keeps a bit of themselves that can still influence them. Did that make sense?
Anyway, the Ruin/Preservation/Balance thing is what I find intriguing and ringing the most true to me. And if I am remembering correctly, Vin at least, didn't accept the power to heal/create/preserve. She released it, gave it up. That is what the voice had been urging her to do, and nobody had gotten to her to stop her and tell her it wasn't a good voice she was hearing. I haven't re-read yet, so I am going off the one time through memory, but I think that is how I remembered it. So, the reason why I like the three tier power play, is because it is the most honest, most likely to happen. Balance just kind of sits back and waits while Ruin and Preservation try to realize that they both must exist for Balance to exist....or something like that. It is really late for me, and this seems to be making less sense as I try to articulate it.
So, if I made some sense, or even if I totally confused you, let me know what you think. :)
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Well, I guess when you spit out as much crazy stuff as I do, chances are something's got to strike a chord Thanks for your imput. And I think it's too late for me as well, I think I shall retire now, I have church tomorrow!
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I think there's something we're missing that we can figure out from the books we have though. So far, Brandon's been really good a subtley forshadowing things, making very important things seem very unimportant, often just mentioning them in passing once or twice and then coming back to them later. I'm sure there another secret left to uncover that's in the already published books.
Then again, "there's always another secret." ??? ;D
Modification:
Ok, I've been rereading this thread again, and something jumped out at me. A little earlier there was some talk about the well holding the power of both ruin and presercation and that the hero got to decide. I'm not sure if this has been touchedo n, but it pretty much says this in the book. In the passages about the prophecy I'm pretty sure it says something about the hero bringing ruin in his wake and yet bringing stability or something like that, wouldn't that be the same as finding the balance? Oh, and I've also been thinking, if Ruin is what was trapped in the well, then why is the power that Vin and the Lord Ruler took the "power of creation." My guess would be that the power is not of ruin or preservation, because creation is neither really, preservation is lack of change, ruin is destruction, so would that mean there is a third party? Brandon seems to like threes. Three created creatures, three magic systems... Oh, and have you noticed the magic systems sort of have their own affinity for ruin or preservation. Feruchemists are very much preservation, they store and preserve knowledge, while the Inquisitors, who we know have something to do with hemalurgy, can hear the voice of ruin, does that mean allomancy has something to do with creation. Forgive me, I'm rambling, and not spitting out anything conclusive, but what if Creation is the state of balance between ruin and preservation? Just some food for thought.
And is it jsut me, or is ruin not the only thing that is bound, if ruin is so powerful, and there is supposed to be balance, shouldn't preservation be powerful too, however the mist spirit doesn't seem to be overly powerful, and is unable to speak, maybe ruin and preservation trapped eachother, preservation sealed ruin away with its opposite: creation, and ruin trapped Preservation in the mists, maybe the mists are just ruin's tools, and preservation is trapped wihin them, again, I'm not even sure, this is just the sound of me rambling and my head exploding ;D
I don't know about that definition of the Well of Ascension. Brandon says in the MB1 annotation Chapter 34 Part Two that there are two forces in the world, and the Lord Ruler has only touched one of them. That has to infer that the Well either is Ruin or Preservation, not a balance of the two.
I think that is the first post in this thread that I have agreed with any of. Please don't take that as an insult, it isn't meant as one, it is just a statement that until now I haven't found a theory that I liked, or that struck a chord with me.
That's quite all right. Lord knows my kandra theory was complete ridiculousness.
On a side note, this post by Ookla seems to say that we may have Preservation all wrong:
Just to be clear, I'm not saying anything about who or what Preservation is.
(That quote is on page two)
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Just discovered this board again, and can see i will ave to reread WoA soon, to be able to bring anything new to you master-minders ;)
I would say though:
There has been talk of the kendra being of Preservation and humans being of Ruin. This leads me to believe that both Ruin and Preservation has to be sentient entities. We know now where Ruin has been for the last centuries, and that it is now free. We don't know that about Preservation. We have no mention of is as an entity. As something where you can point at it and say "There's Preservation" as we could with Ruin in the Well-room. Knowing a bit about Brandon lets me believe that there must be a Preservation somewhere. Why has it not shown itself ? When we think of the direct intervention Ruin has made on the world, and the powers it could wield from it's prison, why did Preservation not act as directly ? It must have been strong enough to imprison Ruin in the first place (if it was Preservation doing it) so where did all that power go ? Did it go into making the prison, for then the power is released now that the prison is no more there...
I am a novice in this, and have only read MB1 and 2 once, when they came out, so this is from age-old memory :)
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I don't know about that definition of the Well of Ascension. Brandon says in the MB1 annotation Chapter 34 Part Two that there are two forces in the world, and the Lord Ruler has only touched one of them. That has to infer that the Well either is Ruin or Preservation, not a balance of the two.
Well the maybe my second theory is right, the power of creation is just a force, not a being, that Preservation used to imprison ruin, and once the power was gone, there was nothing holding ruin back, like I said before, that rant was rally just the sound of my head exploding, I'm not really sure if I came up with anything conclusive.
Or maybe Preservation isn't the mist spirit, but is imprisoned in something that changes, since change is the opposite of preservation, Preservation might have been imprisoned in a human, which is, of ruin. Ruin inprisoned in the power of creation, preservation imprisoned in a chaotic creature of change: a person, perhaps one of the characters has presrvatino inside them. This theory is pretty wild, once again, I'm just spitting stuff off the top of my head, however, my guess, If this would be true might bet the obvious agent: Vin, or perhaps Sazed.
Oh, by the way, I preordered my copy of HoA on Amazon today ;D
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I don't know how explored the concept is, but wasn't it mentioned that the koloss are a creation of ruin? What if when you take the power from the Well, whatever is done has to have a counteraction as well, in order to keep ruin and preservation in check (in that case, giving us the kandra). If that's the case, maybe when he created Allomancy, Hemalurgy came into existence as well. I've been tossing the idea around in my head for a bit and it seems to make sense.
Feel free to rip it to shreds, though. Nothing I like more than to be proven wrong. ^^
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Your overall theory makes sense, but the Hemallurgy example is most likely wrong. Alendi, the original hero of ages, had what was called the "piercings of the hero". He was able to feel the well pulsing, just like Vin could. Since Vin began to repel the mists as she was heading towards the well, her earring has Hemallurgy properties. This most likely means that Alendi also had Hemallurgy piercings, pre-Lord Ruler.
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We don't know for sure that the earrings were hemalurgic, I kind of regret mentioning that point, but they certainly could be. Perhaps hemalurgy existed in another form before the lord ruler's ascension. I don't think it says the koloss are of ruin, just that humans are and that they will use the koloss as their pawns to destroy eachother. I'm also now, like chaos questioning the mist spirit-preservation theory, however, i keep thinking if the mist spirit isn't preservation who or what is he/she/it? Someone opposed to freeing ruin for sure. Maybe Ruin and Preservation are stored in the well, and the mist spirit is a spirit of balance, or creation that put them there, it does say that the mists are both stability and chaos, right? Also, about that annotation saying there are only two beings, maybe Creation or Balance or whatever isn't a separate entity, but a combination of the two. That would ruin my other theory about the mist spirit thought. I don't think preservation would chose the msits to manifest itself in though, I think it would chose something that is solely of presrvation, which possibly lead me back to my other theory (boy I like contradiciting myself) that Ruin imprisoned Preservation in the changing mist, just as Preservation imprisoned Ruin in the power of creation, they used eachother's opposites to trap eachother. But that still doesn't work quite, because the mitss are still of preservation and ruin, but I guess creation isn't really of either. They used neutral forces to trap eachother, sorry if I confused, you, this was just my thinking on screen, I'll restate my prevailling hypothesis:
I think that there are two neutral forces that Ruin and Preservation can both manipulate: the mists which is of both of them, and the power of creation which is of niether really. I think that Ruin and Preservation trapped eachother- Ruin trapping Presrevation in the ever-changing mists, and Preservation trapping ruin within the power of creation that is in the well of ascension.
Thoughts??
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Just discovered this board again, and can see i will ave to reread WoA soon, to be able to bring anything new to you master-minders ;)
I would say though:
There has been talk of the kendra being of Preservation and humans being of Ruin. This leads me to believe that both Ruin and Preservation has to be sentient entities. We know now where Ruin has been for the last centuries, and that it is now free. We don't know that about Preservation. We have no mention of is as an entity. As something where you can point at it and say "There's Preservation" as we could with Ruin in the Well-room. Knowing a bit about Brandon lets me believe that there must be a Preservation somewhere. Why has it not shown itself ? When we think of the direct intervention Ruin has made on the world, and the powers it could wield from it's prison, why did Preservation not act as directly ? It must have been strong enough to imprison Ruin in the first place (if it was Preservation doing it) so where did all that power go ? Did it go into making the prison, for then the power is released now that the prison is no more there...
I am a novice in this, and have only read MB1 and 2 once, when they came out, so this is from age-old memory :)
We don't exactly know what Preservation is, sadly. Though, I agree with you somewhat on the idea that they are sentient. We know Ruin is very clever in his manipulation of the Terris Prophecies, which would lead me to believe it is sentient. However, it uses Zane fairly indiscriminately in killing people (or at least trying to get him to), so that gives credence that while it is clever, it is still much more like a force of nature. Ruin is what it is, so it wants to create ruin and destruction in the world, because that's what it does (this is a subtle reference a logbook mentioning of the Deepness. Alendi says that the Deepness will destroy the world because that is just "what it does".)
I don't know how explored the concept is, but wasn't it mentioned that the koloss are a creation of ruin? What if when you take the power from the Well, whatever is done has to have a counteraction as well, in order to keep ruin and preservation in check (in that case, giving us the kandra). If that's the case, maybe when he created Allomancy, Hemalurgy came into existence as well. I've been tossing the idea around in my head for a bit and it seems to make sense.
Feel free to rip it to shreds, though. Nothing I like more than to be proven wrong. ^^
Hmmm, Brandon certainly likes the Newtonian sort of magic in Mistborn. Every action has a reaction sort of thing. Your theory, then, doesn't seem too unreasonable.
However, I must still say that Brandon said (in an annotation) the Lord Ruler has only touched one of the two forces. So, the Well must only be one of the forces, because obviously, that was what the Lord Ruler touched.
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Maybe it means that the lord ruler only touched one of two forces in a set, who knows, maybe there are other sets. Just playing the devil's advocate, food for thought, eh?
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I think Alendi can here the voice of both ruin and preservation. In one excerpt, he says he can sense the "mind" of the deepness, that wants to destroy everything, that sounds similar to Zane's God, so I'm thinking he can here Ruin. I nthe excerpt before the Epilogue, however, Alendi says that
"there must be something directing my path. Something is watching; something cares. These peaceful whispers tell me a truth I very much want to believe. If I fail, another shall come to finish my work."
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I think Alendi can here the voice of both ruin and preservation. In one excerpt, he says he can sense the "mind" of the deepness, that wants to destroy everything, that sounds similar to Zane's God, so I'm thinking he can here Ruin. I nthe excerpt before the Epilogue, however, Alendi says that
"there must be something directing my path. Something is watching; something cares. These peaceful whispers tell me a truth I very much want to believe. If I fail, another shall come to finish my work."
They are both Ruin, I think, but two sides of Ruin. One element is the Deepness itself, which is more true to form of Ruin and his natural tendency to destroy things. This gives Alendi something to fight against.
The second part is the manipulative part. It is soothing because it is required to be soothing in order to get the Hero to free Ruin at the Well. For example, when Vin enters the Well itself, a soothing voice tells her to destroy the Deepness. Of course, we know that as Ruin, because it wants to free itself.
Likewise, the soothing voice is just a way to keep Alendi fighting the Deepness until the end result: Ruin is freed. Both voices are pure constructions of Ruin.
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But ruin doesn't want him to fail, and so far when ruin talks in people minds he hasn't been manipulative, at least not in that way, only in how he changes reality and when Vin meets him directly. The whispers are telling Alendi that it's ok to fail because someone will finish his work, I think Ruin would wnat to make sure he succeeded so he could be free.
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But the voice didn't tell him explicitly that "If I fail, another shall come to finish my work". That is Alendi's analysis of the feeling of the peaceful voice, not necessarily what it actually said. However, the whispers say:
These peaceful whispers tell me a truth I very much want to believe.
In Kwaan's words at the end of MB2, he says men would die in the belief of prophecies. The voice wants Alendi to believe, then, that the prophecies will stop the Deepness. Alendi's analysis that another will finish his work is just a natural extension of that belief.
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I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then ;D, because I definately think it's preservation.
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Before I go to far on this, I would like to clarify something that has been irritating me. Several people seem to be taking the stand the Ruin is evil, Preservation is good. This is not the case. Rather, ruin just wants to bring the world into as much chaos as possible (and will do good things if it furthers his goal.), while preservation is the force of resistance to change, the force of order (and will do evil things to do it). This same misconception happens all the time in the WOT. But anyway, with that explained, to the main body of my post.
The way I see it, this could work out two ways. Either Ruin and Preservation are actual forces/powers that are controlled by other beings (including possibly people), or they are the beings themselves and control other forces and people to get what they want.
If they are forces, one would have its highest concentration at the well of ascension. The other would have a high concentration elsewhere. After all, these forces must be very equal in nature, or one would have overpowered the other by now. The amount of control each force has over the world is determined exactly by what those who used the power did.
If they are actual beings, on the other hand, they control the world through other forces, such as the mists and hemalurgy. This makes more sense than the other theory in many ways.
I think it is most likely, however, that they are some type of blend between the two. The force itself is Ruin/Preservation, but it is conscious. They are able to affect the world based on the amount of freedom they have at a given point in time. As one becomes more free, it naturally forces the other back into its prison. I agree that it makes the most sense that preservation is also somehow bound.
But other than that, there isn't much to go on. Does anyone have the annotations where Brandon actually mentions this? It would be much appreciated.
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I forget the exact annotation, sorry.
I completely agree about Ruin and Preservation being independant of good and evil though, I thought Preservation was speaking to Alendi to stop him from freeing Ruin, not because he is "good."
I also like your theory about them limiting eachother's influence, like Ruin being trapped byt the power of creation, and Preservsation being trapped in the ever changing mists.
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Not to put so geeky a point on it (but it's done already), you're trying to say that they more closely resemble the neutral aspects of Law and Chaos? If so, it seems like it may work a bit better than strict Good v. Evil, but without that black and white moral definition, we begin treading on uncertain authorial ground.
Allowing that Chaotic alignment just means that you do as you please to get the result, it doesn't specify whether its a morally sound result or not, and that's where the rub comes in: there has to be a deeper conflict than that of the one who follows the rules and the one who doesn't. One is definitely acting in a way as to be evil or good from our PoV as readers, even if in truth it is purely neutral in respect to good and evil.
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Not to put so geeky a point on it (but it's done already), you're trying to say that they more closely resemble the neutral aspects of Law and Chaos? If so, it seems like it may work a bit better than strict Good v. Evil, but without that black and white moral definition, we begin treading on uncertain authorial ground.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Think about it a bit, and you'll see what I mean. This is kind of my instinctive reaction from wheel of time, but Ruin = Chaos/destruction, not necessarily evil. At the same time, Preservation = Order and resistance to change, but not necessarily good.
It is true, however, that due to the nature of each force, Ruin would tend to come across as being more evil and Preservation as being good. However, if saving a person's life (something good) led to that person becoming a leader and absolutely bungling things up so that the entire area just fell apart, Ruin would help that person live, even though at the time, it was a good thing that he did. This is a really bad example, but I think you can get what I'm trying to say from it. Something opposite could happen in the same way for Preservation.
This does indeed start to grey things up a bit, but that's what makes it fun, right?
Also, people, please don't let this totally dominate this thread, it's a good thing to discuss, but there are other things too, like what Ruin and Preservation actually do, and what they actually are. What they represent is important, but not all-important.
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Oh, I definitely agree on the moral ambiguity with Ruin and Preservation. I've said it before, because waaaay a while ago in this thread we came to the conclusion that the power the Lord Ruler touched was Preservation, because he is really like Preservation to the extreme, like stagnation.
The Lord Ruler is definitely evil, but Preservation is just a force. Neither good, neither evil.
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I agree that the Lord Ruler touched preservation. I am also reasonably sure that Vin touched ruin. Hence, the following crazy idea.
Ruin and Preservation are two opposing forces. They fight for influence over the world. However, there is only so much room for influence, so when one gains influence, it naturally takes some of the other's away.
Personally, I think that the well of ascension is the place where they each go to build up power to be used/released when the other gains influence. Thus, when the Lord Ruler used preservation, Ruin moved into the well to lure the next person to come into releasing it. Ruin was released by Vin, and I think preservation will now move into the well.
There are probably problems with this, but it's what I have for now.
The Lord Ruler is definitely evil
I disagree. He did some evil things, but I think he did more good than we know. He was selfish and ruthless, but not evil.
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Well, I had some of the same ideas, Andrew, but we have to remember that Ruin was still in the Well during Alendi/Kwaan/Rashek's time. Ruin still wanted to be released in that age...
Meh, I'm sick. I can't formulate complete thoughts anymore.
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What exactly does someone need to do in order to be classified as evil? "Oh, he killed millions, enslaved and culled his own race, even changed the appearance of the world to fit his need to dominate, but he a couple good things along the way", so that cancels everything else out? Was Hitler misunderstood, too? How about Sauron? [rant finished]
Alright. Have any of you seen Babylon 5? Do you think there is some relevance between Ruin and Preservation and the Vorlons and the Shadow? In any case, releasing Ruin was a bad thing. I believe the Lord Ruler used the power of Preservation in a corrupted way to prevent the world from changing. The natural force of Preservation would allow a certain amount of destruction for the overall preservation of the world. I could be way off, of course. I need to go to bed earlier, I think.
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Point taken. And agreed with, actually, I was simply trying to point out that he is not inherently evil, he just became more so through his actions with the power at the well. The other question is what any of us would have done given his circumstances. Most of us probably would have done something similar, if not as bad. So are we all evil too? Enough deep thinking, my head's starting to hurt. Why am I defending the LR anyway? He's probably the character I dislike the most, he's just tired and old.
Well, I had some of the same ideas, Andrew, but we have to remember that Ruin was still in the Well during Alendi/Kwaan/Rashek's time. Ruin still wanted to be released in that age...
Really? I hadn't seen anything to specifically point to Ruin....Please share! This would modify my theory quite a lot.
And yes, releasing Ruin can't be a good thing....
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Alright. Have any of you seen Babylon 5? Do you think there is some relevance between Ruin and Preservation and the Vorlons and the Shadow?
Yeah, I do see the similarities here, and I agree. So, perhaps in Hero of the Ages, both Ruin and Preservation will have to be defeated in order for this world to return back to normal, without the dark influences of either one of these nearly godlike spirits from the Well of Ascension.
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Alright. Have any of you seen Babylon 5? Do you think there is some relevance between Ruin and Preservation and the Vorlons and the Shadow?
Yeah, I do see the similarities here, and I agree. So, perhaps in Hero of the Ages, both Ruin and Preservation will have to be defeated in order for this world to return back to normal, without the dark influences of either one of these nearly godlike spirits from the Well of Ascension.
Oh, great, now we are going to reference other things to support theories, lol. Not that I don't like Babylon 5, Babylon 5 is awesome. Which reminds me, I need to get the entire series on DVD...
Point taken. And agreed with, actually, I was simply trying to point out that he is not inherently evil, he just became more so through his actions with the power at the well. The other question is what any of us would have done given his circumstances. Most of us probably would have done something similar, if not as bad. So are we all evil too? Enough deep thinking, my head's starting to hurt. Why am I defending the LR anyway? He's probably the character I dislike the most, he's just tired and old.
Well, I had some of the same ideas, Andrew, but we have to remember that Ruin was still in the Well during Alendi/Kwaan/Rashek's time. Ruin still wanted to be released in that age...
Really? I hadn't seen anything to specifically point to Ruin....Please share! This would modify my theory quite a lot.
And yes, releasing Ruin can't be a good thing....
At the end of MB2, Kwaan is explaining why he doesn't want Alendi to reach the Well of Ascension. Specifically, Kwaan says "Alendi must not reach the Well of Ascension, for he must not release the thing that is imprisoned there". Which we would know as Ruin, because what the Lord Ruler specifically did was not release the thing that was imprisoned there. Kwaan also says that something was manipulating the prophecies to get the power at the Well...
Seriously, I thought that ruin being in the Well was pretty obvious. Am I being completely dense today or something?
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Given the circumstances, many of us would have taken the power for ourselves, with the intention to do good. However, intentions are quite different from what ends up happening most of the time. My reason for believing Rashek is evil comes from Alendi's journal. Even before he took the power, he had contempt both for Alendi and the Worldbringers who annointed him as the Hero. He felt that a Terris should be the Hero, that is was their prophecy. He believed the Terris should control the world. Why serve when you can dominate? Whenever someone who so fully believes in this way of thinking gains power, bad things usually happen. EUOL wrote an ultra-worst-case scenario, but the idea is the same.
Seriously, I thought that ruin being in the Well was pretty obvious. Am I being completely dense today or something?
Not at all. Whatever was in there wanted out, and was changing the prophecy to suit its needs. What I would like to know is if Kwaan was happy with the alternative he caused?
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What I would like to know is if Kwaan was happy with the alternative he caused?
Excellent question. I don't know the answer, but it might help if we knew what would have happened if Alendi had fulfilled his quest. In other words, would we have been happier with that world than with the TLR-dominated one? Clearly, TLR thinks he's done the world a huge favor, but that could be just his arrogance talking.
One thing is clear, or at least it had better be true if the story is to end satisfactorily. There is some unknown third alternative (which Vin and/or Elend will discover and perform), and this third alternative is better than either releasing the power or taking it for oneself.
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What I would like to know is if Kwaan was happy with the alternative he caused?
I don't know. I find it very entertaining that the man who essentially "created" the Lord Ruler (by sending Rashek to kill Alendi) should have a very small role in the Final Empire's government. Perhaps Rashek killed Kwaan, which is why we never hear too much about Kwaan later.
But--now I'm contradicting myself again--why would the Lord Ruler keep the Logbook and the metal plate at the Conventical if Rashek killed both Alendi and Kwaan?
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Just because he killed them doesn't mean he felt good about it, these people were a part of his past, and his uncle was family.
Another theory as to why he kept them though, is that he sought to learn more about his unusual place in the universe through any means possible - he did what the HoA should have, so learning about his journey would have been helpful, and his uncle had an unaltered knowledge of the prophecies, which would have given some insight. He seems like the kind of man who would keep those those things around just as tools...
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Kwan might also have been killed by his fellow feruchemist. Maybe his death just did not give Rashek any other alternative but to go to the well himself after killing Alendi. Rashek always seemed to me the 'not thinking' type, if you see what I mean. Everything in the arms, nothing in the head. So he must have felt lost and done the only think he could imagine, especially if he was given chase.
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I don't know about that, Rashek strikes me as the Boromir character back then, except that he went through with it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that maybe he wasn't being muscle-headed as overzealous, then in his fear and awe of the Well's power, he did a few stupid things. It's entirely possible that he did grow more intelligent, cunning and wiser in his thousand years, but the seed had to have been there from the start.
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I didn't think he was stupid, just headstrong. He was told to kill Alendi if he could not lead him astray, so in that case he was following orders. His decision to take the place of the Hero was another thing entirely. I am sure he felt he had a rational reason to do it, but in the end he was driven by his need to dominate those he felt were less worthy. I'm sure he felt contempt for his own people for their weakness in being fooled by Ruin.
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I think I know how the lord ruler is using hemlalurgy to limit ruin's influence!:
Vin says that Kredik shaw is like a capstone for the well, and it's made of thousands of spike-like spires. When I read that it got me thinking. Why make Kredik Shaw have spikes, unless it's somehow related to hemalurgy? My guess, is that the "spikes" that the towers make pierce the ground somehow, overtop of the well, and limit the influence of Ruin. Sure there's no flesh involved, but that's jsut my guess to how the lord ruler limit's ruin's influence.
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I suppose it's possible. My initial guess would be he built spires because.....he liked them! I don't see how this would work as being hemalurgy. I suppose that it is possible, Coma, but I doubt it.
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Good theory, Comatose! I don't necessarily agree with it, but I still like it. I think TLR built Kredik Shaw to be intimidating. More psychological warfare on the masses.
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I think I know how the lord ruler is using hemlalurgy to limit ruin's influence!:
Vin says that Kredik shaw is like a capstone for the well, and it's made of thousands of spike-like spires. When I read that it got me thinking. Why make Kredik Shaw have spikes, unless it's somehow related to hemalurgy? My guess, is that the "spikes" that the towers make pierce the ground somehow, overtop of the well, and limit the influence of Ruin. Sure there's no flesh involved, but that's jsut my guess to how the lord ruler limit's ruin's influence.
Fascinating! I never thought about the Kredik Shaw spires being significant before. I believe they are made of several different metals, which would support your theory.
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Well, just a thought, but when you're building things, you don't sit there and say, "It has to be 100% steel." It doesn't really matter if there are more than one metal. I still don't agree with it, but indeed, nice theory. I just don't see a real need for it in the plot, so why complicate things?
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Well, just a thought, but when you're building things, you don't sit there and say, "It has to be 100% steel."
No, but when you're reading a story and it mentions that the spires are of different metals, there's a chance the author meant something by it. Not that I'm totally convinced by Comatose's theory, either. As you say, simple is good.
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A good author makes every single word count, and I think we can all agree that Brandon is a bloody brilliant author. Maybe Ruin transmits his control over radio waves? Then the metal would be disruptive... (jk of course)
If someone can cite the exact quote from the book that mentions them being of different metals, it would lend credibility to the argument that it's hemalurgically related. What if Kredik Shaw isn't just a palace, but a giant something or other, that has hemalurgical piercings? I'm being rather asinine today, aren't I?
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It allows the imagination to run wild, though. If the room Rashek regenerated in was the exact center of Kredik Shaw, maybe he was able to use it as a way to channel energy to himself, like a giant antennae. Or maybe he just needed a really big antennae so he could watch Saturday morning cartoons.
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Yes, because TLR absolutely loves Iron Man... And the last thing we need is for our imaginations to run more wild, as it is, we're all already certifiable. Heck, you were killed by a time-traveling Mistborn, doesn't that say enough?
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I know, and Comatose is all "a time-traveling Mistborn would be awesome" and then writes RIP darxbane as almost an afterthought. Anyway, someone should see if the number of spires is mentioned anywhere. Wouldn't it be interesting if there were 11?
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Anyway, someone should see if the number of spires is mentioned anywhere. Wouldn't it be interesting if there were 11?
I got the impression there were thousands - but I can't remember where I read it. Nor can I find the place where it says the spires are different metals, although I was sure I'd read that as well. Maybe I'm just imagining things.
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I also remember there being thousands, but here's another possibility - What if they come in groups of 11? So it's not one huge hemalurgical amplifier, it's tons of smaller ones? I still don't really see the need, or feel that there is sufficient evidence given, but it's a possibility.
Also, darx, I seem to recall that you're referring to Chaos' post, not Coma's.
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Andrew, how could you possibly expect one of those Elantrian to remember who wrote what about him ?! No, seriously, we do need quotes if we are going to do serious (hum) theory here... ;) Oh ! I think I can't wait till Euol is done with AMoL to propose to help him do the Ideal Seek (http://idealseek.no-ip.com/) version of Mistborn. It is too frustrating !
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It's just something that jumped out at me in my reread, I know the theory definately has holes, It was just a thought, and I wanted to see what you guys thought about it.
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Well, I guess it's the most appropriate topic to present this.
I was reading Darxbane saying he did not believe that the well's power was of Ruin. I myself would love to believe it. But things keep on jumping in my eyes and that bugs me quite a bit !
First, in re-reading again the fight between Sazed and Marsh I find this :
"Why did you come ?" Marsh whispered as Sazed struggled to his knees. "Everything was going so well." He watched with iron eyes as Sazed slowly crawled away.
Now that doesn't tell much of my thinking but it was then that I went backwards a bit. When Sazed arrives at the opening Vin made in the wall, Marsh is there just like keeping the entrance. Not just like, he is keeping the entrance and then, seeing Sazed he tells us he wish he would understand why he had to kill Sazed.
To me, wether the well's power is Ruin or Preservation (and to me preservation means life, and not static), I know it is evil. No, I am not bringing this into discussing good and evil, please.
The cavern continued to shake, dust and chips falling from the ceiling. And then, in a moment of surreal clarity, Vin heard a single, distinct sentence ringing in her mind.
I am FREE !
Sentence has two different meaning, doesn't it ? It means what I am writing right now. Something that starts with a capital letter and ends by a dot. But there is that other one, no ? The one that means condemnation ? If it's that one, then the well's power is evil and more still, Marsh is manipulated by it, whatever it is. Forget about chaos and all the rest. How could life pronounce a sentence of death ?
Any thoughts on these last ramblings ?
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The 'sentence' that's being referred to is the linguistic kind, based on the context. It's a good catch, but stretching the imagination a bit far. Could it be that the Well is a balancing mechanism, and at the end of a millenia, if the current spirit has gone too far, you just release the other one to do it's thing?
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Vintage,
To clarify my statement, I believe that the power Vin and TLR absorbed was what was imprisoning Ruin, or more specifically, what could free Ruin. Giving the power up to the void destroyed whatever kept Ruin trapped, allowing It to go free. The first quote you put down is interesting, as it alludes to both eye spikes being Iron. This is confusing me, as I could have sworn that Vin notices Kar's spikes to be two different metals. Maybe it is just easier to call them iron in this context, but I could just be "misremembering".
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Ruin is altering your copperminds, my friend. I also could have sworn that they were two metals in their eyes (Iron and Steel, if my devious theories prove correct), but I think your explanation of the power they absorb is a bit skeletal. In my mind it's got to have some further purpose, and I like the theory of how it makes you DM of the world temporarily; doesn't Vin gain the ability to see everything when she's touching it? I really need to reread it...
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The power itself may have other purposes, but imprisoning Ruin seemed to be its primary function. The rest is just speculation, which is fun, but I don't have anything to offer right now.
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I'm telling you, the power of creation (ruin's opposite) placed in the well by preservation to keep him there.
I'm sticking to that theory until someone proves me wrong.
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Order and Entropy, Life and Death, Creation and Destruction, Good and Evil (already ruled out)
Personally, I'm leaning towards Order and Entropy. Or Creation/Destruction. Well okay, I can even see it being all three.
And I agree with Comatose, Ruin is trapped by Preservations power. That's why it had to be Vin or someone else not overly Hemalurgical to hear the Well's pulsing, but not be burned away by the power of the well. So it would be the power of Preservation TLR touched, since that's what held Ruin in the Well.
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I tend to lean toward order and entropy, or possibly life and death. I also agree Preservation is what trapped Ruin. It makes sense, and there really isn't any need to complicate the books by inventing yet another power.
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Oh, absolutely not. Brandon said in his annotations that there are only two powers, so if anyone creates a theory that forms a third "force", we have confirmation from Brandon that that person is wrong.
Now, I just had an interesting thought. In Mistborn1, we don't see Ruin making these really big switches in anything (my loose evidence to support that is that the Logbook was not altered to our knowledge in MB1). The mists don't kill, either, which is the biggest evidence that Ruin was sealed during the Lord Ruler's time.
However, there is something else that happens. There isn't the Mist Spirit. Not once in MB1 do we see a ghost in the mist that has an allomantic pulse.
So, logically speaking, whatever the Lord Ruler did to keep Ruin at bay also keeps the mist spirit at bay--ie, Preservation.
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Assuming of course, that the mist spirit is preservation...which we don't know.
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Feel free to shoot this down, just another random thought, what if the mist spirit is the lord ruler? I know the y existed at the same time back in alendi's day, but maybe that mist spirit vanished once there was no danger of ruin being released, and now that there is danger again the lord ruler replaced that old spirit. Doesn't really make sense, but waht do you guys think of it??
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Well, I believe, as you must imagine, that the Mist Spirit cannot be TLR's since it dit exist before TLR himself, before his killing of Alendi, before his ascension. If it was so, how would you explain that the Mist Spirit tries to kill Alendi's friend while Rashek is not yet in any type of power and obviously is quite alive ?
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The most craziest idea pass by my head. Let's divide your idea Comatose. What would have happen if when the Lord Ruler took the power for himself... the power got in him ? Let's say, lacking words here, he swallowed or absorbed the Mist Spirit while Ruin was trapped by the Well ? He gets killed. Night comes. The Mist Spirit is freed again and mixes with the mists...
Need sleep lol
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Feel free to shoot this down, just another random thought, what if the mist spirit is the lord ruler? I know the y existed at the same time back in alendi's day, but maybe that mist spirit vanished once there was no danger of ruin being released, and now that there is danger again the lord ruler replaced that old spirit. Doesn't really make sense, but waht do you guys think of it??
It seems to me that the most likely guess for the Mist Spirit is Preservation. First, we can assume that Preservation and Ruin are opposites. It seems like Ruin is an actual entity of some sort, since he talks and escapes. Not quite a person, but also not purely a force. Something in between. if that's the case, it's likely that Preservation is something similar.
We also know that the spirit seems to want to keep people away from the Well, which is where Ruin escapes from. If they are opposites, it would make sense that Preservation would be trying to prevent people from going there.
I think all that is fairly well supported, but there is also some more "crazy" links that can be made.
First, the Mist Spirit seems to know what will make Elend a Mistborn. There is an obvious connection between Mist Spirit and Mistborn and the Mist.
If you take the simple route, and just tie all that togeather. It would mean that Preservation is the Mist Spirit, the Mist Spirit is also the Mist, and Mistborn are closely related to all that. So that also means Preservation is the mists (or has something to do with it) and Mistborn are part of Preservation.
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I don't think the mist spirit is preservation anymore, in one annotation, I forget which, Brandon mentions that he originally had multiple mist spirits, and then he changed it to be only one, that could be because he wanted it to be presrevation, but I don't think that's the case. Maybe the Mist Spirit is a servant of Preservation, just as the "hero", thought manipulated, is essentially a servant of ruin, as are the inquisitors.
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I do not think the Mist Spirit is Preservation. It may be an agent of Preservation, but not the big P itself. Why? Because it can't talk. We have heard what we think is Ruin in people's heads several times (Zane, possibly Inquisitors, possibly Vin)
and we have heard Preservation talk to Sazed. However, there have been several times when it would have been to the Mist Spirit's advantage to say something mentally (when Sazed discovers the torn pieces of manuscript, when Vin is in the Well) but it couldn't.
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I've never bought that the mist spirit is itself preservation. It doesn't seem powerful enough. Think about Ruin, and Preservation is going to be its opposite, equal in power. I always thought it was some sort of manifestation of preservation. Possible a servant of some sort.
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Yes, that sounds right, although it could be that Preservation is weakend somehow, jsut as Ruin was present in the well, and we don't know for sure that the voice in Saed's head is Preservation, but...
I still think the mist spirit is more of a servant or agent of preservation.
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Forgive me first of all if I'm restating anything, just read the Hermalurgy forum thing and found myself quite excited about this theory
Pertaining to Ruin or Preservation being released.. I think that he didn't release them, just switched them out, and what was in the mists already (when LR went to WoA) was Ruin. In the books I think (sorry, don't have them on me :-\) it states the the LR changed the land, that would not be Preservation, but Ruin. By attempting to kill off all the Terris Keepers (Preserving histories in their metalminds) would also be Ruin. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that Ruin was in the mists, LR goes to well, switches them, brief control over Ruin, makes the world to his liking, but also to Ruins.
The mists must be an entity to be controlled by either Preservation or Ruin. I would say that the mists are the container for Ruin or Preservation, whichever is not in the WoA. When LR took the power, he wasn't releasing anything, just switching them out. With that he took Ruin out of the mists, into the well, and partly into himself, and released Preservation into the mists. I guess that would also mean that the LR himself was the key to unlock the WoA and allow the Hero (perverted by the ideas of Ruin) to release Ruin into the world. Hence when Vin killed LR both Ruin and Preservation were fighting for control of the mists. In the well they can't do anything other than contact with people who are Hemalurgists. When Vin went into the WoA she released Ruin. Trouble there is that she released it with Preservation in the world already. That would explain the random killings, nothing on the scale we see back during the Deepness. Both Preservation and Ruin are out there now, fighting for control of the one thing they can control not being in the WoA, the mists.
Summary: LR goes into WoA, switches Preservation out of WoA for Ruin, becomes the key to allowing Ruin to "touch" hermalugists, Vin goes into WoA and releases Ruin into the mists, now Ruin and Preservation battle royal for control.
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Though, it could be that he was trying to get rid of the Terris Keepers because their knowledge was corruptible by Ruin.
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Though, it could be that he was trying to get rid of the Terris Keepers because their knowledge was corruptible by Ruin.
The correct term--at least originally after the Ascension--would be Worldbringer. Your explanation, however, could in fact be very true. I always thought it was because the LR didn't want Feruchemy and Allomancy to mix. But there's no reason why the Lord Ruler would not have done the same thing to reduce Ruin's power over the world. By defeating Feruchemy, you defeat one more powerful aspect of Ruin's authority.
So I like that theory very much :D.
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You might want to read the sympathetic lord ruler thread, I think's there's some stuff like that there as well.
I like your theory, but I think it might be the opposite, the lord Ruler released Preservation, and trapped Ruin, for we know that it is Ruin that Vin released from the well, unless that is what you are syaing, and I misunderstood.
On the other thread we were discussing if myabe the Lord Ruler was "preserving," the world in order to prevent chaos, which would strengthen Ruin, meaning that the state of the world affects who is more powerful: Ruin or Preservation. When the Lord Ruler kept things STable, Ruin was weak, but as soon as he died, the world became Chaotic, and Ruin gained power.
Perhaps there is some way to mesh my and your theory together, because I like them bothe so much !
The only hole I can see in this is that, suppposedly, the lord ruler set nothing free, beacuse he took the power instead of giving it away, indicating it is the same entity trapped in the well now as it was then.
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I personally feel that the mists are not holding ruin or preservation, but are a reflection of who has more power. If ruin has more power, the mists do Ruinish things. If preservation has more power, the mists do Preservationish things. But I do quite like your theory.
Well, that's not quite right. I believe the mists are controlled by Ruin and Preservation. Thus, whoever has more power at the time controls what the mists do. There we go. That's a little better.
The correct term--at least originally after the Ascension--would be Worldbringer.
Really? I thought the Worldbringers were like the heads of the Terris Religion. The Keepers were an Entirely separate branch of the Terris people that started shortly after the Ascension in the hope of keeping the world's knowledge and recovering the knowledge that had been lost. While the Worldbringers may have been Feruchemists, they were not necessarily keepers. The Keepers also, may have previously been Worldbringers, but it seems likely that the Lord Ruler would have killed the Worldbringers when destroying his own religion. Anyway, I could be wrong, but that's what I always thought.
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Tensoon states to Vin that you are of ruin... I think that he is not referring to the human race but could be referring to the mistborn.
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Tensoon states to Vin that you are of ruin... I think that he is not referring to the human race but could be referring to the mistborn.
It seems to me he is talking about the entire human race, because that's the context for the whole discussion. He goes on to say that kandra believe humans will kill each other off, using koloss as their pawns.
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And besides, if mistborn were of ruin, wouldn't they repel the mists, like hemalurgits? I'm pretty sure hemalurgists aren't of preservation, so if mistborn are either the opposite, or perhaps at least different. I'm pretty sure TenSoon was talking about humans.
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just thought i'd throw that out there.. :)
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The correct term--at least originally after the Ascension--would be Worldbringer.
Really? I thought the Worldbringers were like the heads of the Terris Religion. The Keepers were an Entirely separate branch of the Terris people that started shortly after the Ascension in the hope of keeping the world's knowledge and recovering the knowledge that had been lost. While the Worldbringers may have been Feruchemists, they were not necessarily keepers. The Keepers also, may have previously been Worldbringers, but it seems likely that the Lord Ruler would have killed the Worldbringers when destroying his own religion. Anyway, I could be wrong, but that's what I always thought.
No, the Keepers were created in the 2nd Century, far after the Lord Ruler killed off the Worldbringers. They are two different things.
And now, I see that my phrase was badly... phrased. What I said was "The correct term--at least originally after the Ascension--would be Worldbringer.". Obviously, after a while, the Worldbringers would have been killed by the Lord Ruler. However, what I meant was that in the immediate sense after Rashek's Ascension, there weren't Keepers, but Worldbringers. (Because Keepers are 2nd century and on).
On a different note, the powers inside the Well cannot be switching. Before the Ascension, Ruin was inside it. This current "age", let's call it, where Vin goes to the Well, still had Ruin inside of it. There's no switching involved.
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On a different note, the powers inside the Well cannot be switching. Before the Ascension, Ruin was inside it. This current "age", let's call it, where Vin goes to the Well, still had Ruin inside of it. There's no switching involved.
Not necessarily. They didn't switch this time, that doesn't mean that they can't switch. And the point that they didn't switch is entirely speculation, unless we have had definitive confirmation that the power the Lord Ruler used was Ruin, which I don't recall.
And even if it has been confirmed, the Lord Ruler used the power, while Vin let it go. Because Vin let it go, it may switch to Preservation in the well the next time around.
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So i just finished MB2 and have a few questions about all this. First when alendi and TLR went to the well of ascension was that the first time that it had happened. If not, and if it was preservation that was in the well, would that mean the world that they lived in was influenced more by ruin. This makes me think that it couldnt of been preservation in the well then.If this wasn't the first time that ruin or preservation was fighting to keep away/bring some one to the WOA how many times has it been done before. If this was the first time how did these two powers come to control the world like they did.
The mist spirit(whether or not it is preservation or a servant of some sort) was trying to stop them from using the well but failing that wanted the power used instead of set free. Does this mean that being trapped in the well gives the opposite power to whoever uses it instead of lets it go.But that would mean the mist spirit would want it used instead of as a last resort so im not sure what im saying here.
Im still a novice at making these theories up so you professionals feel free to correct me.
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Ok, I'm continueing on from the hemalurgy thread. Sorry for those who have already read there, this first paragrpah is a short recap
So basically, to sum things up, since the mists area sort of neutral force between Ruin and Preservation, it doesn't quite make sense that the mists pull away from hemalrugists who are of only Ruin, when Ruin is just as influential (if not more- the deepness) as preservation is. So I began wondering, what if the mists are of balance and they only pull away from Hemalurgist because they are only of one of the powers at one particualr time (only Ruin or only Preservation), and it pulls towards allomancers, because they are balanced between the two.
That's my first thought, the second one is, I've been going on about how Prservation is trapped in teh mists ( the mist psirit) well if the mists are neutral, why would Preservation be trapped, then I thought to myself, maybe PResrvation is trapped in something else, something that is of Ruin, and is chaotic thus can limit Preseration influence, and I had it: what if Preservatio nis trapped inside the body of a person, and is passed from mother to daughter or father to son, adn son on! Human are of Ruin right? What if one of the heroes is hiding preservation, and the only way to get preservation out and restore balance is to kill the person, wouldn't that be awful. What if it's Vin, and that's why she;s so powerful at allomancy, she has some sort of higher bieng inside her! Her mother was hearing the Voice of PReservation that she once had, and the earing was her way of passing the "spirit" on to Vin. Remember, the descritption says Elend and Vin can't discusss their plans to stop Ruin, because then he will find out, so they have to keep things to themselves. What if Elend is the Hero of Ages, and the only way to stop Ruin is to bring balance, thus Preservation msut be freed as well, and Vin and/or elend figure this out, and Elend must kill Vin to save the world, and he can;t even talk to her about it ,and she can;t tell him it's all right because then Ruin will find out!
Wow, sorry guys that is kind of far fetched. I was really tired last night when I thought this up, sorry! I hope it at least gives you gusy someting to think about!
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It sounds legit, but if that were the case wouldn't the being of Ruin/Preservation go and capture Vin/Elend so they can't be killed?
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So basically, to sum things up, since the mists area sort of neutral force between Ruin and Preservation, it doesn't quite make sense that the mists pull away from hemalrugists who are of only Ruin, when Ruin is just as influential (if not more- the deepness) as preservation is. So I began wondering, what if the mists are of balance and they only pull away from Hemalurgist because they are only of one of the powers at one particualr time (only Ruin or only Preservation), and it pulls towards allomancers, because they are balanced between the two.
Well it doesn't make sense for a neutral or balanced power to attract something. Also, i do not believe the appearance of mists pulling towards or pushing away from an allomancer or hemalurgist is constant. In other words, i think they have to be actually using their abilities for the mists to react.
Support for this would be:
-at times Vin attracts the mists, at times she repels. Although i cannot give specific quotes i believe this to be the case; can anyone confirm or deny?
-uh, thats about it.
My theory is that when a hemalurgist appears to be 'repelling' the mists, he is actually burning them. First of all it would not make much sense to 'burn' your own blood as some people seem to be suggesting as it would weaken you, maybe even causing you to pass out. At several points in the book Vin refers to 'burning' the mists.
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when does she refer to burning the mists? i can only think of one time that has happened. I like the accessing the reservoir in the blood, makes more sense and links all the magic systems yet keeps them completely different
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Unfortunately i do not even own MB2 !!!??? so i cannot look up quotes...let me see if i can find them in another of my posts...
OK
QUOTE
While she was fighting him, she drew upon the mists somehow, burning them in place of metals.
QUOTE
That day, they (the mists) had fueled her Allomancy, giving her a strength they shouldn't have had.
There is more but as i said i cannot look them up :( :(
This whole discussion was on page 13 of the Comprehensive Hemalurgy thread http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5745.msg121892#msg121892
In this discussion i had actually believed burning the mists was a function of allomancy, but as the only times we see mist being repelled is from a hemalurgist...it kinda rules out that idea.
uh, yeah
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Both those quotes refer to when she is facing TLR. She attempts to burn them in WoA but can't.
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No but she does repel the mists. I believe that when a hemalurgist appears to be repelling the mists, that is actually when he/she is burning them. The effect would look much the same i think. Also perhaps Allomancy feeds the mist, which is why the mists follow them when they use their abilities.
When you burn wood on a fire, the carbon in the wood turns to smoke. It is the same general effect for an Allomancer; as they burn metals, they give off mist as a byproduct.
The only major hole in this theory is the fact that Vin's earring seems to stop her from burning the mists. She doesn't have it when she fights TLR, but she is wearing it during MB2, when she cannot burn the mists. If the earring is hemalurgical, and burning mists is hemalurgical, why can she not do both at the same time?
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The mists existed before allomancy, that much we know. If Vin had been burning the mists when they were being repelled from her I'm sure she would have said something about it in the book.
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I think the problem is that we are thinking of the mists as a neutral force. I suggest that rather than think of them thus, we think of them as follows. Whichever force has more freedom at the time has more control over the mists.
So, Deepness mists = Ruin, and would theoretically be attracted to hemalurgists, while repelling allomancers.
And, Lord Ruler Mists = Preservation, and therefore is attracted to allomancy and repelled from hemalurgy.
We haven't seen any of this so far, but then again, we haven't really seen anything of the deepness mists.
A lot of this was discussed on page 13 of the hemalurgy thread, so if you haven't, go read there. Coma provided a link. Let's not get into the discussion on the acidity of saliva that resulted last time.
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heh that one made me chuckle.. So I have a new crazy theory. From what we know when TLR went into the well Mistborn came about as a result. So what if this has happened 2 times before? Someone had gone in took the power for themselves, creating Feruchemy and Hemalurgy earlier, instead of freeing Ruin.
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I'm more inclined to think that Hemalurgy is the newest of the magic systems. Perhaps the Lord Ruler made Hemalurgy for his Inquisitors, and just happened upon Allomancy while he was doing it.
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I still think Alendi had hemalurgical piercings, hence the terrisman hatred hence him hearing the wells pulsing.
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heh that one made me chuckle.. So I have a new crazy theory. From what we know when TLR went into the well Mistborn came about as a result. So what if this has happened 2 times before? Someone had gone in took the power for themselves, creating Feruchemy and Hemalurgy earlier, instead of freeing Ruin.
:0 This is an interesting theory! I REALLY like that thought.
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Records say no Allomancy before TLR, but those records could have been changed. Or lost. All three magics COULD have existed before the ascension. Though if that was the case, why would Ruin hide it?
And, in the prologue, it mentions that Ruin still couldn't affect the world directly, because of some shield that was blanketing it. Like the mists. Possibly.
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heh it's a very WoTish theory ;)
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The only major hole in this theory is the fact that Vin's earring seems to stop her from burning the mists. She doesn't have it when she fights TLR, but she is wearing it during MB2, when she cannot burn the mists. If the earring is hemalurgical, and burning mists is hemalurgical, why can she not do both at the same time?
Indeed. That is the question.
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Ok, more on my Preservation is inside Vin theory:What if the thing that Ruin need now, the thing that he's loooking for, is Vin, only he doesn't know which human PReservation is hidden in.
Or what if Preservation is hidden inside a Feruchmist (Sazed), and that's why Ruin is having the inquisitors sacrifice keepers, so he can transfer preservation into a Inquisitor he can control, making him the ultimate power!
But he missed one keeper: Sazed!
Just More Crazy theories from Comatose!
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We do know that Ruin is changing the prophecies, but we don't know if Preservation can do it. Seems not. The Mist Spirit can cut things, but not change the words, and we don't even know if the Mist Spirit is Preservation. Still, while the prophecies are being changed, that's not to say they were just made up. So there probably is a prophecy about the Hero of Ages, and it still hasn't been fulfilled yet, because Ruin is getting in the way. And it could be the prophecy is to destroy Ruin. Or Preservation. Or balance the two.
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Or become the two...
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That's odd.
I don't know if one person could contain within themselves two opposing forces like that. Of course, we don't know what Preservation is like, per say; we've only met the Mist Spirit, and we don't know for certain that it's Preservation. Of course, it would be a third entity in the story if it wasn't.
Three powers, two forces, one mist spirit.
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We could say 3 forces, ruin, preservation, and creation.
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Except Brandon says there are only two.
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Shows how much attention I pay sometime :)
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The only major hole in this theory is the fact that Vin's earring seems to stop her from burning the mists. She doesn't have it when she fights TLR, but she is wearing it during MB2, when she cannot burn the mists. If the earring is hemalurgical, and burning mists is hemalurgical, why can she not do both at the same time?
Indeed. That is the question.
Clearly, I've missed something. My theory was always that the mist-burning was Allomantic in nature (see "The Mists" for more info).
Hemalurgy is inherently different from mist-burning on a fundamental level. It has to be, because one attracts mists and the other repels it.
In fact, my theory further said that Hemalurgy made it impossible for Vin to burn the mists. Because her Hemalurgical earring pushes the mists slightly away, even when she does not know it, that little bit of resistance makes it impossible for her to actually burn the mists. If you think of mist-burning as Allomantic (which it should, logically speaking. She is essentially just creating another Allomantic metal operating under the rules of Allomancy. None of our observations apply about Hemalurgy--such as a blood sacrifice or metal inside of you--explain or otherwise make sense of the mist-burning. Thus, it is Allomantic.) skill, and her Hemalurgy as a hindrance, it makes perfect sense.
For the majority for MB1, she wears the earring. Kelsier even says it should be okay to wear, so she wears it for the majority of the book.
In MB2, we definitely know of it being worn.
The only two times we explicitly know of that she isn't wearing it is 1. During the fight with the Lord Ruler, and 2. At the Well of Ascension.
Now, this tells me something... if she can't do it during MB2, while she is wearing the earring, then during the LR fight, she is not wearing it, enabling her to use special Allomantic ability.
Problem solved.
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the only thing is, it doesn't make sense for mist to be attracted when it is being burned. It DOES make sense for it to be dissapearing, melting away, or vanishing, which would look like it is being repelled. I have gone back and forth, back and forth on whether this is hemalurgy or allomancy, and there are arguments both ways. Right now my current opinion is that is is hemalurgy.
With the mist burning Vin seems to have discovered something not even Kelsier knew about, or any other mistborn for that matter. We already know she has hemalurgy. It would seem to be the logical explanation that the special power she found, which no other allomancer knows about, stems not from allomancy but another magic system.
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With the mist burning Vin seems to have discovered something not even Kelsier knew about, or any other mistborn for that matter. We already know she has hemalurgy. It would seem to be the logical explanation that the special power she found, which no other allomancer knows about, stems not from allomancy but another magic system.
Brandon has said only 3 magic systems right? That would be my only problem with that, and reading Chaos's post made me think; why would ruin want the earring out of Vin when she was so close to the Well?
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the only thing is, it doesn't make sense for mist to be attracted when it is being burned. It DOES make sense for it to be dissapearing, melting away, or vanishing, which would look like it is being repelled. I have gone back and forth, back and forth on whether this is hemalurgy or allomancy, and there are arguments both ways. Right now my current opinion is that is is hemalurgy.
With the mist burning Vin seems to have discovered something not even Kelsier knew about, or any other mistborn for that matter. We already know she has hemalurgy. It would seem to be the logical explanation that the special power she found, which no other allomancer knows about, stems not from allomancy but another magic system.
Brandon always said Vin was different.
However, if you read The Mists (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5782.0), my theory of Allomancy says the mists pulling towards you is what physically causes Allomancy. Allomancy, under this model, would be the mental art of just pulling the mists towards you, and the mists make it possible to burn the metals in this scenario.
There are some problems with that theory (like, how can you use Allomancy in the daytime), but that's my theory and I'm sticking with it.
But let us think of a vacuum sucking up something mist-like.
The vacuum pulls the mists towards it, and absorbs it. It doesn't push it back out, nor does it look anything like it. Vanishing mists would not look like repulsion in any manner of speaking... they just go toward Vin and then disappear, which you could only see if you were really paying attention.
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the only thing is, it doesn't make sense for mist to be attracted when it is being burned. It DOES make sense for it to be dissapearing, melting away, or vanishing, which would look like it is being repelled. I have gone back and forth, back and forth on whether this is hemalurgy or allomancy, and there are arguments both ways. Right now my current opinion is that is is hemalurgy.
With the mist burning Vin seems to have discovered something not even Kelsier knew about, or any other mistborn for that matter. We already know she has hemalurgy. It would seem to be the logical explanation that the special power she found, which no other allomancer knows about, stems not from allomancy but another magic system.
Brandon always said Vin was different.
However, if you read The Mists (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5782.0), my theory of Allomancy says the mists pulling towards you is what physically causes Allomancy. Allomancy, under this model, would be the mental art of just pulling the mists towards you, and the mists make it possible to burn the metals in this scenario.
There are some problems with that theory (like, how can you use Allomancy in the daytime), but that's my theory and I'm sticking with it.
But let us think of a vacuum sucking up something mist-like.
The vacuum pulls the mists towards it, and absorbs it. It doesn't push it back out, nor does it look anything like it. Vanishing mists would not look like repulsion in any manner of speaking... they just go toward Vin and then disappear, which you could only see if you were really paying attention.
I definitely think that this could be how she burns Mists, but I HIGHLY doubt that is how metals are burned. .. . that theory has more holes than swiss cheese. PLUS this is off topic.
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That's good enough for me, lol.
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I also think, that Mists melting or vanishing, looks a great deal different then mist being repelled: the way the churn for one thing, vanishing that patterns would simply cease, repelling, the mist would swirl AWAY from the person, thus if they were vanishing, Elend would have said, they are dissappearing around you, and not you're pushing them away.
Back on track to Ruin and Preservation
I'm still going on about my "preservations inside a person theory, and I think it must be in Vin, if anyone, simply for her supernatural allomancy powers. There's something special about her, and what is it? The Sazed angle works much better with the "What is Ruin looking for, and why they are using keepers though. PErhpas Ruin trapped Preservation in a feruchemist, but that feruchemist's children or grandchildren, had no feruchemy, and thus they were not hunted by the lord ruler as much, and managed to slip through the cracks early on and is one of Vin's ancestors. Ruin expects that PReservation's host's Feruchmey would have passed throught the Generations with Preservation, but it didn't, and now PReservations inside of an allomncer, where Ruin would never look for it!
Gee, that sounds crazy even to me.
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the only thing is, it doesn't make sense for mist to be attracted when it is being burned. It DOES make sense for it to be dissapearing, melting away, or vanishing, which would look like it is being repelled. I have gone back and forth, back and forth on whether this is hemalurgy or allomancy, and there are arguments both ways. Right now my current opinion is that is is hemalurgy.
Surely we've already established that it's allomancy? Reaves, we had this very discussion on page 13 of the hemalurgy thread. I'll provide the quotes that were used there as well. My initial post on the matter...
All right, due to chaos' request that the discussion from "the mists" be moved over here, my reply is here. Reaves, I believe that at the same time Vin is noticing how Zane can hover with Steelpushes, she remarks that doing that takes long hours of practice to learn enough control. Not that no one else could do it. As for Vin drawing on the mists, quote from Mistborn 1 Annotations, Chapter 38 part 3.
The same is true for Allomancy. The vast majority of Allomancers aren't powerful enough to look beyond the basics. For them, simple rules like "You can't Push on metals inside of someone's body" apply. It's much easier to tell someone that, as opposed to "People's bodies interfere with Allomancy, making it much harder to affect metals inside of them--so hard, in fact, that only some people you'll never meet can Push on metals inside of people's bodies."
It is a matter of degree of power. Vin, for reasons I'll explain eventually, has access to far more Allomantic power than regular people. The Lord Ruler is the same way, though for different reasons. And so, he can affect metals that are blocked by blood. Vin has to draw upon another, external source of power in order to produce the same effect, but it is possible for her.
Also, MB1 annotations Chapter Nine
The mists and Allomancy feeling right to Vin have something to do with the ending, where she draws upon the mists for an extra burst of power. I'm afraid I can't say more until we get to future books.
Between those two quotes, Brandon makes it seem like Vin drawing on the mist has more to do with her being particularly powerful in allomancy than anything else. The other thing that goes against your theory is that at the end of book one, when Vin is fighting the lord ruler, he pushes her earring away before she draws on the mists. Since this is supposedly her source of hemalurgical power, I think that it makes sense for the mists to be repelled by hemalurgy, and Vin somehow used a form of allomancy to "burn" the mists.
and your post in response...(well, not your first one, it's actually two posts down, but hey...)
Hum. Actually Andrew you are right.
That day, they had fueled her Allomancy, giving her a strength they shouldn't have had.
Also, my previous quote about using the mist instead of metals supports this idea.
This would explain several things actually; why mistborn are called mistborn, and why the Allomancers of old were stronger than modern-day. It would not explain why mist follows them....but the fact that mist is around them allows them to burn it more often.
Burning the mist is an allomantic power, not hemalurgical. We have evidence to say so, and I've seen nothing to prove otherwise.
Coma, I can see what you mean with your theory, but it just doesn't make sense to me. Why would preservation be inside of a person? It wouldn't have gone there on its own for any reason that I can think of, and Ruin wouldn't put it there if it prevented Ruin from gaining complete power. If you could explain why, it might help me. Personally, I think that preservation is probably still out there somewhere.
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Ok this thought is something I've been thinking about since the Gemmel thread popped up, I think it's on page 4 or 5 of the Brandon Boards.
Gemmel knew about Feruchemists, when Kelsier is remembering his training he quotes Gemmel saying something about how he can't change his WEIGHT because he's an Allomancer, not a NORTHERN MYSTIC. Gemmel seems to be involved in the resistance in some way, he probably knew Sazed, and this led to Kelsier's escape, as said before, Gemmel was also crazy, does this mean he heard voices?
What I'm trying to get at is perhaps Ruin and/or Preservation manipulations may be going way back: giving Kelsier the knowledge he needs to train Vin, and succeed in his quest, in order to give Vin an opportunity to do, what she did at the end of book 2, and or whatever else these dieties have planned for her.
And Andrew, what I'm trying to say with all this is if Ruin was trapped, I think Preservation was trapped as well. Since humans are of Ruin, I was thinking that maybe Ruin trapped PReservation in the body of human, and Preservation has been passed through the generations. Sorry, it's kind of complicated. Ruin was imprisoned by his opposite: the power of creation, and since there are only TWO powers, it's safe to assume that it was Preservation who trapped him there, but I was thinking that Ruin and PReservation trapped EACHOTHER, and that the human, a chaotic entity who is of Ruin, would be a good PRison for Preservation. I originally thought the mists, but they are of both Ruin and PReservation, so, ya. I'm not sure if that's very clear, but I hope it helps.
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This is really tangential to current conversations, but it has to do with the thread.
I was thinking earlier and thought that it would be a possibility for this to be what Ruin and Preservation are.
Preservation - The power at the well. By taking it, you preserve life and create new life. It is your job to make the world a better place, but better is perspective obviously.
Ruin - Ruin is released when someone gives up the power of preservation (i.e. They just don't want to have to deal with all of the power and responsibilities.) Or they are just mislead, as was Vin. By giving up the power of preservation you release the power of Ruin.
Physical embodiments - Preservation gets its when someone uses the power, that person becomes it's vassal. Ruin, it has to take a body through some means after it is released.
:/
I could dig up SOME evidence, but not a whole lot and most of it is very volatile as far as supporting the theory goes.
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It has merit, and I like it, but I also think that Ruin and Preservation are independant of good and evil, and too much of either is bad: I think creation lies in the balance between the two: The ability to change, the chaos that is life, but not utter Ruin and destruction, with some stability mixed in: balance.
I'm also against the theory that preservation is in the well, but that's just me.
I just thought of something else: the Lord Ruler pretty much embodied preservation right? He's also a lot different from the angry emotional packman he started out as, sure living a thousand years does mature someone, but I don't think Rashek, even superpowered, would do some of the things the lord ruler did, so I'm beginning to wonder if you guys aren't right, what if Preservation was in the lord ruler...
And it jumped to Vin when she PIERCED his HEART with a SPEAR! Vin is a Hemalurgist right, so Preservation travelled from the lord ruler, up the spear, piercing his heart, into Vin, the waiting Hemalurgist! But Vin's earring, put there by RUIN who was controlling her mother, limited Preservation influence, that combined with the chaos without the lord ruler gave Ruin his power, now he's hunting feruchemist, because Preservation is supposed to be in a feruchemist: Rashek, but it's now inside Vin through her accidental haphhazard Hemalurgic Ritual!
Crazier and crazier.
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Ouch, i feel like i just got smacked upside the head whithout even being there, lol. :'(
although my first post was actually a response to something comatose said, i'll continue this discussion in the hemalurgy thread when i get back from work in a couple hours.
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I'm sorry, but this is really weird. Ruin and Preservation = GODS. Basically. Why do we think that they need bodies? They are conscious entities, forces...wouldn't putting themselves into a physical body just limit them? Ruin doesn't need to take a body. Preservation could theoretically be trapped...or it could be out there stopping ruin from total power like the prologue suggests...
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I'm sorry, but this is really weird. Ruin and Preservation = GODS. Basically. Why do we think that they need bodies? They are conscious entities, forces...wouldn't putting themselves into a physical body just limit them? Ruin doesn't need to take a body. Preservation could theoretically be trapped...or it could be out there stopping ruin from total power like the prologue suggests...
It was simply a thought. I mean, if you know anything about plain theory, then they would have to directly become part of this plain in order to directly affect it.
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But to have total power, Ruin needs something to be found and brought to him.
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But to have total power, Ruin needs something to be found and brought to him.
Yeah, and my thought being that he needs a way to enter the physical realm, or attain a physical body.
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Okay, so this is stealing from Final Empire Prime, but in that story, there were two forces, Sha (change through destruction) and Lum (change through growth). There was a quest involving a Lord Ruler character who was supposed to choose a path, and he did, and I'm not going to explain the story here, but come to the points: There was a battle between Sha and Lum, in the which Lum lost because the Lord Ruler character sided with Sha. Lum avoided complete destruction by planting a seed of itself within a person many hundreds of years into the future. Sha was bonded with the LR character, but controlled by him. This actually gave Sha more power to affect the world, and the influence of Lum was greatly weakened, since Lum was almost destroyed.
So...
What if Preservation WAS inside of Vin (as mentioned earlier) and TLR did touch and actually bond with Ruin, which is what kept it bound and limited because he left it in the well, and when he died and Vin freed it, it still needed a body to actually control the world, but since it's free now it would control the person it bonded with, instead of visa versa. And it wants to destroy what's left of Preservation, which is inside Vin, but can't until it gets a body.
Some kind of specific body, though. It couldn't just be anyone, otherwise it would have done so. Do the other inquisitors resist Ruin? or just Marsh? I think this theory has too many holes, but it's another possibility as to why Vin is so powerful.
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Okay, so this is stealing from Final Empire Prime, but in that story, there were two forces, Sha (change through destruction) and Lum (change through growth). There was a quest involving a Lord Ruler character who was supposed to choose a path, and he did, and I'm not going to explain the story here, but come to the points: There was a battle between Sha and Lum, in the which Lum lost because the Lord Ruler character sided with Sha. Lum avoided complete destruction by planting a seed of itself within a person many hundreds of years into the future. Sha was bonded with the LR character, but controlled by him. This actually gave Sha more power to affect the world, and the influence of Lum was greatly weakened, since Lum was almost destroyed.
So...
What if Preservation WAS inside of Vin (as mentioned earlier) and TLR did touch and actually bond with Ruin, which is what kept it bound and limited because he left it in the well, and when he died and Vin freed it, it still needed a body to actually control the world, but since it's free now it would control the person it bonded with, instead of visa versa. And it wants to destroy what's left of Preservation, which is inside Vin, but can't until it gets a body.
Some kind of specific body, though. It couldn't just be anyone, otherwise it would have done so. Do the other inquisitors resist Ruin? or just Marsh? I think this theory has too many holes, but it's another possibility as to why Vin is so powerful.
I like this, basically just because it is similar to my theory. HAHA. I think this is what will happen. I'm actually pretty sure this is what is going to happen.
EDIT: Especially considering Brandon did say that he used many of those ideas in the actually Mistborn series.
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I'm not saying they NEED bodies, I'm saying Preservation is TRAPPED inside of a body like Ruin was in teh well, but PReservation still has some influence, even from it's prison (like Ruin did, even before he was released: he had a considerable amount of influence: Change most things written not in metal, control inquisitors almost completeley, and of course, make the deepness come back, I'm guessing that even trapped, PReservation is far from powerless, and is still able to fight Ruin, if they were both FREE, there would be balance, and Ruin wouldn't have the extreme amount of power that he has now, which mean Preservation must be trapped. Ruin needs to find the body PReservation is trapped in, and use it to destroy PReservation (which I'm not sure he can do) or channel it into the body of a thing he can have complete control over, thus controlling preservation as well (inquisitors).
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What could Ruin need? Preservation, I think, is the mist that's protecting the world from Ruin, but what would Ruin need to take control?
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well, PReservation IS the only other super powerful god-like force out there, so I'm pretty sure it's Preservation who is opposing Ruin in some way, and I think what Ruin needs to take Control, is to control Preservation! Or at least get PReservation out of the way, where he can't even use his powers even a little bit, or even kill him, if sucha thing is possible?
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I'm not saying they NEED bodies, I'm saying Preservation is TRAPPED inside of a body like Ruin was in teh well, but PReservation still has some influence, even from it's prison (like Ruin did, even before he was released: he had a considerable amount of influence: Change most things written not in metal, control inquisitors almost completeley, and of course, make the deepness come back, I'm guessing that even trapped, PReservation is far from powerless, and is still able to fight Ruin, if they were both FREE, there would be balance, and Ruin wouldn't have the extreme amount of power that he has now, which mean Preservation must be trapped. Ruin needs to find the body PReservation is trapped in, and use it to destroy PReservation (which I'm not sure he can do) or channel it into the body of a thing he can have complete control over, thus controlling preservation as well (inquisitors).
I can dig this. It makes sense and in the end it's going to be a battle between Preservation and Ruin for... control of the mists?
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What could Ruin need? Preservation, I think, is the mist that's protecting the world from Ruin, but what would Ruin need to take control?
why do you think the mist is protecting the world? From my understanding it is feared by skaa and has actually begun killing them in some cases. Unless you think Ruin already has control of them?
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Perhaps Ruin has control in part. There are desert wastelands just outside where the mist is, and away from the influence of the ashmounts. And I was trying to think what else is covering the world like a blanket, protecting it from Ruin's direct influence? The only things I can come up with are the mists, and the ashmounts.
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I think the mists and perhaps the ashmounts, are neutral forces that both Ruin and Preservation can use!
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Then is it just Preservation that's protecting the world from Ruin's direct influence? Marsh said it's like a blanket shielding the world. I mean it could be, I'm just wondering if there's a more (even if slightly more) physical presence to Preservation's protection.
EDIT: Not that I'm disagreeing with you, I just wonder.
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I still think they need to have a physical body in order to affect the physical plain.
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I'll agree with that. That works with Final Empire Prime, though we don't know how much of that he kept...
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She can’t even discuss it with Elend lest Ruin learn their plans!
Just thought I would throw this out there again for this current discussion. Either Ruin has really good hearing, can read minds or ends up inhabiting Elend.....
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i think its more that they don't know Ruins capabilities. They have no idea if it is omniscient or what it might be doing at the time. I don't think it would be unreasonable for it to focus on Vin, as it has vested interests in learning any plans she may have (after all, she is the one who ends up freeing Ruin)
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And he can't read minds, that's the whole point, as long as they keep their plans in their heads, he doesn't know about it, but if he can see and change everything on paper or in metal mind, I think that equals he can probably also hear most things as well, not that he's listening at all times, we know from Marsh's account that Ruin can't be absolutely everywhere at once, his influence comes and goes! They just don't know when he's watching and when he;s not!
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But while he can't be everywhere at once, he does seem to be able to arrive everywhere pretty instantaneously, and that can be about the same thing.
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Exactly why Vin and Elend have to be careful with what they say to eachother
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No telepathy powers here. Too bad; might have helped, assuming Ruin couldn't have heard thought transmissions...
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True, however the part that sticks out to me is the fact that Elend has been singled out in that quote. Sure, I could be reading too much into it, but if it said 'She can't even discuss it with Sazed lest ruin learn their plans!' there would be no doubt about the quote.
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Perhaps it is jsut referring to the fact that Elend is the one whom she needs to talk to the most about. But I agree it is suspicous.
By the way, I posted some interesting logbook and steel plate findings on the Vin's Mom thread!
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Okay, this theory is pretty cool, but if Preservation is trapped in a body, then what is the mist spirit? How does that work out?
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One thing I noticed is that Ruin is able to influence Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. Why can it not influence Allomancers? Maybe both Feruchemy and Hemalurgy are of Ruin, seeing as how it has free run with their powers.
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thats an interesting idea, Preservation trapped in the mist spirit. I had trouble believing Preservation was trapped in Vin; after all, if its protecting the entire world you would think it could protect Vin from Ruin's influence, but this idea makes a bit more sense.
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I don't think teh mist spirit is of Preservation, seeing as how the mists are a balance between the two, maybe the mist spirit is simply and ebodiment of balance?
And Ruin CAN manipulate feruchemy and hemalurgy, and I think PReservation can as well, the reason they can't manipulate allomancy I think is because allomancy is of balance as well, which is why it attracts the mists, remember, the mist spirit uses emotional allomancy?
And as for Vin, Ruin ISN'T able to influence her much, all he can do is show her the way to the well, and Perhaps Preservation can't protect Vin, BECAUSE it is in her. If it could affect Vin, couldn't it find a way to get her to free it, or free itself? I still think Preservation is inside of Vin, and not the mist spirit, I used to think it was the mist spirit, but if the msits are of balance, then how could they trap Preservation. The book itself says they are of stability and chaos.
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Stability and Chaos... says there's something in the mists that we may not be paying enough attention to. Balance may be it, but it may have to do with the Deepness as well.
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Yes, the mists must be far more crucial than most of us think. So much revolves around them...mistborn, hemalurgists, the Deepness, etc etc
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The trilogy is named Mistborn, I think the mists really are the key element, that ties everything else together. It all hinges on the mist somehow, we just have to figure out all the connections.
The deepness also confuses me, is it really just a vehicle Ruin used to escape, and then to destroy the world, or is it something more?
In the logbook, Alendi says he confronts the mind of the deepness directly, and it is sentient, but it jsut wants to destroy because that is what it does. How does he confront the mind of the deepness. Perhaps he is seeing into the mind of Ruin through his hemalurgical piercings. Perhaps these piercing not only lead him to Ruin, but also let him confront Ruin, and shield him from being controlled? Maybe they are preservation fuelled piercings, who knows? Or perhaps, the deepness is another being, who merely sides with Ruin:
Think of it this way. there are two super god powers: Ruin and Preservation, and two Mist Creatures: The Deepness on Ruin's side, and the Mist Spirit on Preservation's side.
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And in like effect, there are two mists; one that kills, and one that doesn't. But we can't seem to tell them apart, because they're both mist.
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The trilogy is named Mistborn, I think the mists really are the key element, that ties everything else together. It all hinges on the mist somehow, we just have to figure out all the connections.
The deepness also confuses me, is it really just a vehicle Ruin used to escape, and then to destroy the world, or is it something more?
In the logbook, Alendi says he confronts the mind of the deepness directly, and it is sentient, but it jsut wants to destroy because that is what it does. How does he confront the mind of the deepness. Perhaps he is seeing into the mind of Ruin through his hemalurgical piercings. Perhaps these piercing not only lead him to Ruin, but also let him confront Ruin, and shield him from being controlled? Maybe they are preservation fuelled piercings, who knows? Or perhaps, the deepness is another being, who merely sides with Ruin:
Think of it this way. there are two super god powers: Ruin and Preservation, and two Mist Creatures: The Deepness on Ruin's side, and the Mist Spirit on Preservation's side.
Perhaps hemalurgical piercings are almost a two-way connection to Ruin. For most people it allows Ruin access to their thoughts and actions, but for certain people like Alendi it allows them to see into the mind of Ruin.
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But maybe not just certain people like Alendi... Maybe Marsh could if he tried. Maybe he does, but since it controls him, it doesn't help him much... Maybe Vin could, if she knew to even try.
EDIT: On another note, anyone have any theories as to why Preservation doesn't speak so often? We have a few instances, but it doesn't seem as vocal as Ruin. Also, Preservation may be the reason why Ruin couldn't alter the Prophecies more than it did.
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But maybe not just certain people like Alendi... Maybe Marsh could if he tried. Maybe he does, but since it controls him, it doesn't help him much... Maybe Vin could, if she knew to even try.
I got the very distinct impression from the prologue to MB3 that Marsh could indeed read at least part of Ruin's thoughts. He could hear him exulting over his escape, among other things. This didn't do him much good, though. Man, that's nightmare fodder right there.
Alendi may well have been able to sense Ruin's thoughts through the piercings. On the other hand, it doesn't seem to fit quite right. What we've seen of Ruin actually enjoys the destruction and pain it's causing. It gloats over Zane and enjoys killing the victims by controlling Marsh. Alendi's description of the Deepness seems more---clinical. It destroys because destruction is what it does. I'm inclined to see the Deepness as something Ruin made or changed rather than Ruin itself.
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Then perhaps it IS the mind of the Deepness he is looking into, and the Deepness and Ruin are separate entities. I was wondering, if maybe the Mist Spirit is and embodiment of balance between ruin and Preservation, and is seeking to balance the two, and the Deepness is an embodiment of imbalance and seeks to keep them imbalanced: IE) when Ruin is more powerful, the deepness seeks to destroy the world, when Preservation is more powerful (during the Lord Ruler's reign) the Deepness is not there in the form it was. Perhaps, the Lord Ruler absorbed the deepness into himself, and since Preservation was more powerful, he tried to keep it that way, by preserving the world to the point of stagnation.
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So what is holding Ruin back? Where is Preservation? I don't think that it's in Vin, maybe... Crap forgot the name of the city where the atium may be... has something to do with Preservation. If TLR did just take the deepness into himself then why did it not fully return with his death? Sure the mists are killing, but are they killing to the extent of the deepness?
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Well, I think they are, it just took a while to come back, that's all, it hit outwards of the empire first, then worked it's way in to the well of ascension.
That will also be interesting about book 3, Vin may have to be afraid to go out in the mists again. and I don't think she's going to like that considering how she loves the mists now.
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And I think it is PReservation holding Ruin back, even though it is trapped (possibly inside a person). Remember Ruin could influence quite a lot, even though he was trapped in the well, who's to say Preservation can't protect the world even though it is trapped. If Preservation was free, it would be just as powerful as Ruin, and then Ruin would have hardly any influence at all because they would cancel eachother's influence out, and there would be balance, since Ruin has the advantage, I'm pretty sure it means Preservation is trapped in some way.
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I just found an interesting quote that may challenge the theory about TLR doing everything from Preservation. It's when the Inquisitors are appealing to take over authority from the obligators.
MB1, p.602
The Lord Ruler waved a dismissive hand. "It is good for them to get purged every century or so. It fosters instability, keeps the aristocracy from growing too confident. Usually, I let them kill each other in one of their foolish wars, but these riots will work."
emphasis added
Instability sounds more like Ruin to me than Preservation. I guess it could be seen as a way to preserve his rule, though, in that it weakens the nobility's security and therefore their power to challenge him.
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I just found an interesting quote that may challenge the theory about TLR doing everything from Preservation. It's when the Inquisitors are appealing to take over authority from the obligators.
MB1, p.602
The Lord Ruler waved a dismissive hand. "It is good for them to get purged every century or so. It fosters instability, keeps the aristocracy from growing too confident. Usually, I let them kill each other in one of their foolish wars, but these riots will work."
emphasis added
Instability sounds more like Ruin to me than Preservation. I guess it could be seen as a way to preserve his rule, though, in that it weakens the nobility's security and therefore their power to challenge him.
Whereas this is an interesting point, we must also consider that sometimes in order to preserve some things must be destroyed. In order to preserve life we kill cancerous cells. In order to preserve natural habitat we have destroyed companies. It's all a matter of perspective, which you did kind of mention.
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[Whereas this is an interesting point, we must also consider that sometimes in order to preserve some things must be destroyed. In order to preserve life we kill cancerous cells. In order to preserve natural habitat we have destroyed companies. It's all a matter of perspective, which you did kind of mention.
True, but I was focusing on the word "instability", not the killing or destruction. If killing were inherently antipathetic to Preservation, then I don't think anyone would be arguing that TLR's works were entirely of Preservation, because he was responsible for a LOT of killing. The word instability to me connotes chaos, entropy, things changing and disintegrating rather than staying the same. If I were TLR (thank goodness I'm not) and I was above all concerned for Preservation, then I would not intentionally stir up the nobility every century or so. The constancy-to-the-point-of-stagnation that we've been arguing TLR displays would be better served by long lines of noble families, generation after generation of the strongest houses staying strong. It's not like they can actually challenge TLR for his throne, since they don't have his combination of powers.
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One of the major holes I can see in that theory is that in the Mistborn: The Final Empire Annotations, (Prologue part two to be exact.) Brandon mentions how the world is,
". . . a little bit frozen in time, as you'll find in later books."
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[Whereas this is an interesting point, we must also consider that sometimes in order to preserve some things must be destroyed. In order to preserve life we kill cancerous cells. In order to preserve natural habitat we have destroyed companies. It's all a matter of perspective, which you did kind of mention.
True, but I was focusing on the word "instability", not the killing or destruction. If killing were inherently antipathetic to Preservation, then I don't think anyone would be arguing that TLR's works were entirely of Preservation, because he was responsible for a LOT of killing. The word instability to me connotes chaos, entropy, things changing and disintegrating rather than staying the same. If I were TLR (thank goodness I'm not) and I was above all concerned for Preservation, then I would not intentionally stir up the nobility every century or so. The constancy-to-the-point-of-stagnation that we've been arguing TLR displays would be better served by long lines of noble families, generation after generation of the strongest houses staying strong. It's not like they can actually challenge TLR for his throne, since they don't have his combination of powers.
Yes, but the instability within the nobility causes them to not gain as much power and keeps him at the head. Preserving his rein as well as his ability to keep preserving the land.
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How he created the final empire was more or less through chaos. He destroyed his enemies with the koloss and created the ashmounts, changed the face of the land. Through chaos came stability.
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TLR has always allowed for violence to occur. It is a major pillar that keeps his reign. Now this violence can come against the powerful, the nobility, in the form of nobleman house wars every century or so. House wars prevent any one House or alliance of Houses from becoming strong enough to challenge TLR’s rule. The violence can also come in the form of the severe skaa oppression that we’ve seen. Skaa being worked to death or beheaded in mandatory public executions is a very effective way of keeping the large segment of the population downtrodden and unwilling to rebel. Sounds to me like a wonderfully effective way of preserving the world as it is.
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But, see, he doesn't NEED the instability and chaos and violence to keep his throne. His combination of magical traits makes him so intrinsically powerful that it wouldn't matter how big-headed the nobility or anyone else got. He could just soothe or slaughter any opposition, without lifting a finger. So it seems to me he fosters the instability not because he needs it to keep his throne, but because he likes it.
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But, see, he doesn't NEED the instability and chaos and violence to keep his throne. His combination of magical traits makes him so intrinsically powerful that it wouldn't matter how big-headed the nobility or anyone else got. He could just soothe or slaughter any opposition, without lifting a finger. So it seems to me he fosters the instability not because he needs it to keep his throne, but because he likes it.
If he liked instability would he not just let them rebel and then kill them? He may have incredible magical power and can crush any opposition but that does not mean he likes or wants opposition.
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But, see, he doesn't NEED the instability and chaos and violence to keep his throne. His combination of magical traits makes him so intrinsically powerful that it wouldn't matter how big-headed the nobility or anyone else got. He could just soothe or slaughter any opposition, without lifting a finger. So it seems to me he fosters the instability not because he needs it to keep his throne, but because he likes it.
He was afraid of people gaining enough power to learn his secrets and figure out how to kill him. Where he hid this for a thousand years, until Kell and Vin came along. He was trying to avoid a situation like that. Therefore he NEEDED the instability to keep his throne.
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the only thing the Lord Ruler needed to keep his throne was not to come up against a person who was Mistborne and also Humerology. the only reason Vin won was because of her special abilities. if she didnt have that combination she would have lost. that revelation was also unintentional. they didnt plan that Vin would have this other ability to help her with the Lord Ruler it just turned out that way. so if the Lord Ruler didnt come up against Vin at that moment more likely than not he would have retained his throne for who knows how long
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the only thing the Lord Ruler needed to keep his throne was not to come up against a person who was Mistborne and also Humerology. the only reason Vin won was because of her special abilities. if she didnt have that combination she would have lost. that revelation was also unintentional. they didnt plan that Vin would have this other ability to help her with the Lord Ruler it just turned out that way. so if the Lord Ruler didnt come up against Vin at that moment more likely than not he would have retained his throne for who knows how long
True, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't afraid of the possibility of someone figuring out his weakness.
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ok i guess i agree to an extent. that extent being that any person or body of people that have power tend to protect it. the last thing they would want is for someone/anyone to know an effective way of taking that power from them. even elend is guilty of this due to his not wanting to give up being king, although he wants power over people to help the common good it doesnt change that he wanted to retain the power. not that your wrong but i find that when a point is generally universal then it usaully is arleady understood and excepted. i can however sound like a jerk so forgive me
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Actually, he just needed to stay away from any really powerful Mistborn. Brandon states in the Chapter Thirty-Eight Part III Annotation that . . .
[Pushing or pulling on metals inside of people's bodies] is a matter of degree of power.
He also states that Vin has to draw on the mists to get enough power to do this, but implies that if someone was strong enough Allomantically they could do it themselves. So by allowing the nobility to fight each other every once in a while, he kills off all of the most powerful Allomancers in the Final Empire, thus preventing one of them from ever becoming strong enough to affect metals in another person's body.
And also, just because The Lord Ruler touched upon Preservation's (Or Ruin's for that matter.) power does not mean every action he does is dictated by them. I believe that The Lord Ruler upon entering the Well of Ascension saw exactly how the Deepness worked, (As it was well upon the land when he ascended.) and through it saw Ruin. Being the "moral" man all men believe themselves to be, he figured out how to stop the deepness (Create an environment where Preservation is loose in the world.) And used the power of the Well to do it.
From then on, whatever else The Lord Ruler did, he would be trying to foster a place both where he was dominant and where Preservation was loose, but not because he had to, because he was trying to do the right thing and prevent the Deepness from ever returning.
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I believe that The Lord Ruler upon entering the Well of Ascension saw exactly how the Deepness worked, (As it was well upon the land when he ascended.) and through it saw Ruin. Being the "moral" man all men believe themselves to be, he figured out how to stop the deepness (Create an environment where Preservation is loose in the world.) And used the power of the Well to do it.
ok so if this were true than why did Vin not see to the core of the issue with Ruin and Preservation while she was in the WoA??? i see your point about having the powerfull allomancers in the city fight eachother to maintain a low populace of any powerful mistborn but i dont exactly follow the Lord Rulers ability to see the effect of the deepness and therefore make an informed decison on how best to prevent Ruin from escaping but also combating the deepness
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The justification I have for that is that when Vin went into the Well of Ascension, the Deepness wasn't a hugely powerful force. Things like the weather around the Final Empire, and the amount of life on the planet, those were the largest facts, the ones she got. Also, Elend was dying there, taking up her attention, and she was going to give up the power regardless.
Whereas when The Lord Ruler entered the Well, the Deepness was probably the most prominent aspect of the world. Through Alendi's logbook, we learn that the Deepness was killing the world off very quickly, and was covering it day and night, the only way to escape it was to climb some of the highest mountains on the planet. The Deepness was just a much larger force in the world when The Lord Ruler went in, and he probably didn't have the love of his life dying right next to the Well either.
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and he probably didn't have the love of his life dying right next to the Well either.
lol no that was Alendi
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Okay, so here are some things I've been noticing on my latest read-through of the books.
To start, The Lord Ruler was an important person. By staying alive, he somehow prevented Ruin from sending the Deepness upon the land. It was only after The Lord Ruler's death that the mists started coming during the daytime and killing people.
On top of that, The Lord Ruler knew what was going on. It's the only way I can see his justification for his comments at the end of The Final Empire. He had been alive when the Deepness ravaged the world a thousand years ago, and he was actively stopping it.
This is all a very complicated system. The mists are presumably the Deepness, a tool of Ruin, but the mists are also repelled by Hemalurgy, which it seems is also strongly affected by Ruin. Perhaps what happened was The Lord Ruler made Hemalurgy when he was in the Well of Ascension to stop the Deepness. (Explaining why Hemalurgy pushes away the mists, as it was created to prevent their harsher side . . .) Then, because Ruin was trapped within that very Well of Ascension, it gained a foothold in Hemalurgy. It would lend credence to The Lord Ruler's comment about Hemalurgy being "endowed fabrications" and solves both why Hemalurgy repels the mists and why Ruin can speak to Hemalurgists. Any evidence for or against this?
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Ok i can see some credit to your idea, If this is true than Allomancy could have been one of the things created by the Lord Ruler as an attempt to stop ruin. kinda like a failed invention, just because it doesnt do what its supposed to doesnt mean its useless. thats just a thought seeing how i cant find any difinitive reason for the existance of Allomancy and it came into being at the time of the Lord Rulers ascention. this would also explain preservations apparent lack of ability to talk to or control hemalurgy. im not saying that preservation cant do these things im just saying it hasnt appeared that it can. if this idea proves to be true than preservation would lack the ability due to the fact that it wasnt trapped in the WoA.
Ok maybe allomancy was created as an attempt to stop the mist dirrectly. we know the mist is somehow involvel in allomantic powers, seeing how Vin absorbed the mist and used it to enhance her abilities. maybe allomancers were created as people who could combat the mist in some unknown way. the Lord Ruler was doing it while he was alive, maybe he did it with his enhanced allomantic ability. just speculation i havnt really done any research or thought it through entirly.
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I agree that The Lord Ruler very possibly could have created Allomancy as well, but I'm not so sure if he created it to combat the Deepness. If he say, created Hemalurgy and used the Well's power to beef up Preservation, he might have then wanted to create a magic system that could tap into the power of the mists, or create one that he could use in tandem with Feruchemy to keep himself alive and in power forever. (If so, perhaps he created atium as well. He could change the world to make it a Feruchemical metal to store up age, and make it a Allomantic and maybe Hemalurgic metal as well.) But I think both Hemalurgy and Allomancy were created by The Lord Ruler, if for no other reason than the fact that I've always found it strange that all three systems use the same metals, and none others that we know of.
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He most likely did not create Hemalurgy. Alendi had the piercings of the hero, and could feel the well pulsing, just like Vin. If you recall the end of book 2, Vin begins to feel the pulses even when she is not burning bronze, which means she most likely feels the pulses through her earring, which is made of bronze. This leads me to believe that Hemalurgy was already in existence. He may have created Allomancy, but it is more likely he rediscovered it.
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Good points. Well, that makes this theory (mostly) useless, so it's time to venture back to the drawing board.
I still want to know what's up with The Lord Ruler and all the magic systems using the same metals though . . .
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There are some differences. For example, in Feruchemy, Atium stores age. It is theorized that burning Atium with your age stored in it creates a huge burst of power that tips the balance to allow someone to stay the same age indefinitely (feruchemy is a give and take by default). Additionally, we don't exactly know what Hemallurgy does, but I imagine combining feruchemy with Hemalurgy has an equally potent effect. Now that the Inquisitors are using keepers to make new Inq's, we should be seeing some pretty ridiculous things. By the way, is anyone else intrigued that the spike Marsh is pounding in during the prologue for MB3 is a Bronze one? This should be brought up in the Hemalurgy thread, as well.
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It has been, I think.
And to clarify, I don't wonder about the lack of differences between using each metal in each system, I wonder why it seems that Allomancy, Hemalurgy, and Feruchemy, ALL use the same actual metals. (Steel, bronze, atium, etc.)
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It has been, I think.
And to clarify, I don't wonder about the lack of differences between using each metal in each system, I wonder why it seems that Allomancy, Hemalurgy, and Feruchemy, ALL use the same actual metals. (Steel, bronze, atium, etc.)
Probably because each metal has it's own attribute and these are all the basic metals on a periodic chart.
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But there are plenty of other metals on the Periodic Table of the Elements. For example, we know why silver wasn't used in Allomancy, (Brandon couldn't find a good alloy of it, among other things.) but why isn't it used in Feruchemy? (Or Hemalurgy?)
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As far as Hemalurgy goes I don't know, but if you notice Feruchemy also used the alloys. I assume that they are connected on a basic level. I know Brandon has said they are all different, but that doesn't mean they aren't connected at an extremely low level.
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I suppose the simplest answer is to prevent the magic systems from becoming overly complicated. Beyond that, EUOL needed a way to allow TLR to combine the three magics to make himself so powerful. I think this would be much more difficult to understand if TLR needed 25 different metals on him that had no relation to each other. Finally, you are assuming that this world has the same number of elements that ours does, and Atium alone proves that is not be the case.
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I can't help but suspect that in some very deep sense, all of the magic systems are connected or have similar foundations. The fact that
(1) two of the systems are known to use the exact same metals with the exact same alloys and
(2) there seems to be a connection between what Feruchemists can do with Pewter and Allomancers can do with Pewter and
(3) the Allomantic time-based metal Atium can be used to store age (a time-based human attribute)
all seem too much to be a coincidence. Perhaps in some way the powers associated with a metal are intrinsic, but the ways of accessing them are different?
Anyway, I strongly suspect that the Hemalurgical system uses the exact same metals and alloys. It would be a nice, clean way of interrelating the magic systems.
In addition, we know that somehow the mists are related to the magic systems. It's no wonder they have something in common.
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I can't help but suspect that in some very deep sense, all of the magic systems are connected or have similar foundations. The fact that
(1) two of the systems are known to use the exact same metals with the exact same alloys and
(2) there seems to be a connection between what Feruchemists can do with Pewter and Allomancers can do with Pewter and
(3) the Allomantic time-based metal Atium can be used to store age (a time-based human attribute)
all seem too much to be a coincidence. Perhaps in some way the powers associated with a metal are intrinsic, but the ways of accessing them are different?
Anyway, I strongly suspect that the Hemalurgical system uses the exact same metals and alloys. It would be a nice, clean way of interrelating the magic systems.
In addition, we know that somehow the mists are related to the magic systems. It's no wonder they have something in common.
The only problem with this is that Brandon himself said that they are all different and NOT connected, which kinda throws a lot of this off kilter.
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Except for the mists. He said that had something to do with the foundation of the whole world and the magic systems.
As for the rest, I realize it could have been for simplicity's sake, but I was wondering if there was a deeper reasoning behind it. Guess I'll have to wait until the last annotation of Hero of Ages to know for sure.
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I can't help but suspect that in some very deep sense, all of the magic systems are connected or have similar foundations. The fact that
(1) two of the systems are known to use the exact same metals with the exact same alloys and
(2) there seems to be a connection between what Feruchemists can do with Pewter and Allomancers can do with Pewter and
(3) the Allomantic time-based metal Atium can be used to store age (a time-based human attribute)
all seem too much to be a coincidence. Perhaps in some way the powers associated with a metal are intrinsic, but the ways of accessing them are different?
Anyway, I strongly suspect that the Hemalurgical system uses the exact same metals and alloys. It would be a nice, clean way of interrelating the magic systems.
In addition, we know that somehow the mists are related to the magic systems. It's no wonder they have something in common.
The only problem with this is that Brandon himself said that they are all different and NOT connected, which kinda throws a lot of this off kilter.
Do you have a direct quote of where he said that? That seems like a rather overbroad interpretation of what I remember, especially given the three points I described above.
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The only quote I can dig up is this one, although I seem to remember EUOL saying that they were related but seperate.
All three systems use metal in different ways, and all three draw power for the user from different places.
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The only quote I can dig up is this one, although I seem to remember EUOL saying that they were related but seperate.
All three systems use metal in different ways, and all three draw power for the user from different places.
Yeah, it was something like that that I remembered. I was just rying to pull it off the top of my head and I remembered it being a bit more extreme than that. haha
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Hmmm. VegasDev, where'd you dig up that quote?
That confirms what I've usually thought about. The sixteen metals (if you look in the official Fanart thread on like page 11, you can see Brandon posting some of his art which has the icons for all the sixteen metals used in magic) are interconnected. And speaking of "draw power for the user from different places", that was the basis to my Hemalurgy theory. Er, not to sound holier-than-thou. Sorry about that. The point is, that quote does verify the theory--which is good, because I can be known to go way off topic sometimes. It's good to know we are rooted in some fact occasionally.
Except for the mists. He said that had something to do with the foundation of the whole world and the magic systems.
As for the rest, I realize it could have been for simplicity's sake, but I was wondering if there was a deeper reasoning behind it. Guess I'll have to wait until the last annotation of Hero of Ages to know for sure.
The Mists are something I have thought about for a while, so forgive me if I repeat another one of my previously mentioned theories (I really need to start creating some new ones, but oh well. Hopefully, if some newer members haven't read the beginning posts in topics, it can be informative), I had thought that the mists themselves give the metal their power. The way a Allomancer/Feruchemist/Hemalurgist channels the power depends on how they utilize the mists. For example, Allomancers pull the mists towards them and Hemalurgists repel them.
But, uh, that's more of a discussion for The Mists topic.
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Hmmm. VegasDev, where'd you dig up that quote?
Brandon has all sorts of quotes sprinkled throughout the different forums, annotations, other websites, etc. Can't remember where I grabbed that one. If you missed that one then there are probably a bunch that you have missed. You mentioned Hemalurgy, here's one from the writing group forum before the book was finished:
Sazed's power is the one I'm considering changing. It is called Hemalurgy. Now, I like the way this sounds. However, it doesn't quite fit in meaning with Sazed's powers. (The Hema, which should evoke thoughts of 'blood' has rightly drawn complaints from readers.)
However, Hemalurgy DOES fit quite well with the third (mostly unmentioned magic system) used by the Steel Inquisitors.
Your best bet is to click this little button at the top of the page called search, of course you'd still have to go through annotations, entire web etc. ;)
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The Mists are something I have thought about for a while, so forgive me if I repeat another one of my previously mentioned theories (I really need to start creating some new ones, but oh well. Hopefully, if some newer members haven't read the beginning posts in topics, it can be informative), I had thought that the mists themselves give the metal their power. The way a Allomancer/Feruchemist/Hemalurgist channels the power depends on how they utilize the mists. For example, Allomancers pull the mists towards them and Hemalurgists repel them.
But, uh, that's more of a discussion for The Mists topic.
Yes, this was kinda talked about a little bit, though it wasn't looked too deeply into.
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Chaos, the only problem I've got with that theory is if the mists are so essential to all the magic systems, why does the magic still work when the mists aren't out? Even if the mists are still there, and just invisible during the daylight, during pre-Ascension times Rashek and co.'s Feruchemy worked fine when Alendi said that they were above the Deepness/mists. (And welcome back by the way. I haven't seen you posting in a little while.)
--- Discussion continued from page 30 of the Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread ---
In response to Chaos' very long late-night post. . .
I agree with almost all of what you've got there, Chaos, but there are a few points I'd like to make. Let's see . . .
. . . (Side note: We also don't see any mist spirits in MB1. The Lord Ruler could have a similar hold on Preservation to prevent the manifestation of such a mist spirit.). . .
Another possibility is that Preservation was just reluctant to do any more changing than it had to in order to keep Ruin at bay, and The Lord Ruler was just doing a good enough job of preserving the world that Preservation felt no need to manifest itself if it didn't have to.
The Lord Ruler, both knowing about Hemalurgy and of Ruin's existence [. . .], would not create an army of super-Mistborn like the Steel Inquisitors if he knew that Ruin could so easily get a hold on them. I think the logical explanation is either: 1. He was not aware of Ruin's power to influence metals, merely that it was killing mists or 2. The Lord Ruler was aware of that ability of Ruin, but, he never anticipated on actually dying. . . .
I'm pretty sure that the second option here is a lot more plausible. The Lord Ruler was nothing if not arrogant, and Kwaan knew of the abilities of which you speak, and I think he would have told Rashek as much as he could, especially after he ascended.
Now that I think about it, Ruin must have some way to sense what people are thinking. He couldn't manipulate them, but merely be aware of them. . . .
Doesn't it say on the jacket flap of Hero of Ages that Elend and Vin must struggle to fight Ruin without even speaking of their plans to each other? If that's the case, I highly doubt Ruin could read minds, otherwise what's the point of not speaking? Perhaps Ruin could read minds while inside of the Well of Ascension, but not now that he's free. (Maybe because of the whole omnipotence factor the Well of Ascension seems to have.)
Other than that, I wholeheartedly agree with your post, it makes a lot of sense that Ruin couldn't affect the world while The Lord Ruler reigned.
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Chaos, the only problem I've got with that theory is if the mists are so essential to all the magic systems, why does the magic still work when the mists aren't out? Even if the mists are still there, and just invisible during the daylight, during pre-Ascension times Rashek and co.'s Feruchemy worked fine when Alendi said that they were above the Deepness/mists. (And welcome back by the way. I haven't seen you posting in a little while.)
I've just been a lot more passive in my posting habits, that's all.
Yes, that is the common-sense against the mists being the basis of the magic systems. However, Brandon's the one who mentioned that the Mists are foundational to everything, so I'm just trying to figure out how that would work. It could just be pointless speculation, because we cannot be sure of any of the mists' true nature (what it's made of, how it relates to the magics, etc.) until Mistborn 3. Still, I think it's more plausible than anything else.
. . . (Side note: We also don't see any mist spirits in MB1. The Lord Ruler could have a similar hold on Preservation to prevent the manifestation of such a mist spirit.). . .
Another possibility is that Preservation was just reluctant to do any more changing than it had to in order to keep Ruin at bay, and The Lord Ruler was just doing a good enough job of preserving the world that Preservation felt no need to manifest itself if it didn't have to.
It's impossible to be certain. We know nothing of Preservation's true self--we can't even be sure that the mist spirit is even Preservation.
The Lord Ruler, both knowing about Hemalurgy and of Ruin's existence [. . .], would not create an army of super-Mistborn like the Steel Inquisitors if he knew that Ruin could so easily get a hold on them. I think the logical explanation is either: 1. He was not aware of Ruin's power to influence metals, merely that it was killing mists or 2. The Lord Ruler was aware of that ability of Ruin, but, he never anticipated on actually dying. . . .
I'm pretty sure that the second option here is a lot more plausible. The Lord Ruler was nothing if not arrogant, and Kwaan knew of the abilities of which you speak, and I think he would have told Rashek as much as he could, especially after he ascended.
Now that I think on it, that would be the most plausible. If you had lived for a thousand years, you would never anticipate on actually dying.
Now that I think about it, Ruin must have some way to sense what people are thinking. He couldn't manipulate them, but merely be aware of them. . . .
Doesn't it say on the jacket flap of Hero of Ages that Elend and Vin must struggle to fight Ruin without even speaking of their plans to each other? If that's the case, I highly doubt Ruin could read minds, otherwise what's the point of not speaking? Perhaps Ruin could read minds while inside of the Well of Ascension, but not now that he's free. (Maybe because of the whole omnipotence factor the Well of Ascension seems to have.)
I had forgotten about that point when I was writing my post last night. Clearly, Ruin wouldn't be able to read minds in that sense, but perhaps he has other tools at his disposal which allowed him to figure out Vin's dispositions.
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Looks like most of the points I was going to make have been made for me. I would still like to point out, however, that even if Ruin can't read minds (which I assume), it is very good at reading people's actions to determine their thoughts. I say this because it does know so much of what it needs to, as Chaos mentioned.
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Actually, not reading minds seems to be one of the things that the magic in this world can't do. EUOL makes this point repeatedly with respect to the emotional allomantic powers. In addition, Ruin didn't change memories, which would seem to be a good indicator that he can't read minds.
Question: is this why memories remain unchanged? Because Ruin has no ability to read minds and thus wouldn't know what to change? Apparently metalminds are more susceptible.
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Aha. Perhaps that's how Ruin knew what Vin's suspicions were. Vin confided in Sazed quite a bit, and Sazed could have put the memories in one of his metalminds.
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That actually makes a lot of sense, though I don't know why Sazed would store that particular memory...
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Well, he and Tindwyl were trying to decipher the prophecies; it seems like Vin's suspicions relate to that subject. Seems plausible to me.
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That actually does make sense. He talks to her in the middle of a session of deciphering prophecies, stores said session, and there we go, ruin has access to Sazed's conversation with Vin.
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Ruin may also have access to Vin's thoughts through her earring. Ruin can influence people with hemalurgy and can influence the power stored in Metalminds, but can't alter metal itself. Interesting. You know Reen's "voice" in Vin's head is not always just her imagination, right? Sometimes it is a little too sentient. Almost God-like, if you will.
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But then, that raises an interesting question. Why doesn't Ruin always know everything Vin is planning?
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Who's to say It doesnt'? What has she or anyone else done lately that has worked against Ruin? It would appear that the last time Ruin didn't get what It wanted was a thousand years prior.
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Well, we don't know what Ruin can sense and influence and what he can't, beyond some basic guidelines like "He can't affect memories."
For instance, can he sense regular patterns of motion in air and decipher their meaning? E.g. can he hear, even from a distance? If so, then there is no need for him to read the memories out of Sazed's metalmind. With this theory, if Vin says something, Ruin could know about it if he's paying attention. This is nothing like reading minds and everything like eavesdropping. He certainly has powers along these lines. He can modify text on a page, after all, and the simplest way for him to do that would be for him to "read" (sense) the pages directly rather than fiddling with metalminds etc.
In addition, we don't know how he maintains control over the Inquisitors (or his more limited control over Zane). We do see that he knows what is going on around Zane, so it's possible the Hemalurgy created a link into Zane's mind that actually was readable (or that he can read minds but not change them.) However, he could also simply be "looking" at the area around Zane via his other "senses." Similarly, he can control the inquisitors (but not quite completely) but we don't know if that is mind-reading or more like soothing. For instance, he seems to make Marsh become more like himself, perverting Marsh's values into his own, but this does not necessarily indicate that he can see into Marsh's head, simply that he can "sooth"* away everything except what he wants Marsh to feel and "riot"* those emotions that he wants Marsh to feel; if the "soothing" and "rioting" are strong enough, then he effectively controls Marsh with or without mind reading.
*Quotation marks because I am not at all certain that the power being exerted is literally soothing or rioting. It's an analogy.
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One of the major holes I can see in that theory is that in the Mistborn: The Final Empire Annotations, (Prologue part two to be exact.) Brandon mentions how the world is, ". . . a little bit frozen in time, as you'll find in later books."
That, I think is an important clue...
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Having escaped death at the climax of The Well of Ascension only by becoming a Mistborn himself, Emperor Elend Venture hopes to find clues left behind by the Lord Ruler that will allow him to save the world. Vin is consumed with guilt at having been tricked into releasing the mystic force known as Ruin from the Well. Ruin wants to end the world, and its near omniscience and ability to warp reality make stopping it seem impossible. She can’t even discuss it with Elend lest Ruin learn their plans!
"You know why I thought you'd save me?" he tried to whisper to her, though he somehow knew that his lips weren't properly forming the words. [. . . ]
"Of course I didn't tell you to kill her," God said.
From these two quotes, I'm pretty sure Ruin can "hear," but not read minds. Hemalurgists are tricky . . . . Zane was speaking those words, but they were unintelligible. Either Ruin pieced together what Zane was trying to say because he's cool like that, or Ruin could read Zane's mind. Elend and Vin could have to keep silent for fear of Ruin overhearing their conversation, or because he could read Vin's mind. If Ruin can see into Hemalurgist's minds though, I would assume that he could only do so to a relative extent as to how much Hemalurgy the person possessed. So he knows basically everything about Inquisitors, knows at least enough about Zane to tell when he's near someone, and knows enough about Vin to make her and Elend not want to risk talking about their plans.
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I agree completely with Czanos.
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I do too.
Side note:
Yes, you pronounce the x. It is not a placeholder
Have you had problems with that in the past? Or is this like a reference to something I'm not catching? Or am I just over-analyzing randomness?
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But then, that raises an interesting question. Why doesn't Ruin always know everything Vin is planning?
Because he moves the people and influences the people around her. (i.e. Sazed, Marsh, possible Kandra) He knows what she's going to do because he provides what is needed to make certain stuff happen.
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Yes.. I didn't know till afterwards that x's replace spaces online, so I get Dar Bane all the time, like I killed the Beastmaster or something.
I just want to know what Preservations deal is in all of this. Ruin does all these manipulative things, and Preservation just seems to do nothing overt. The mist spirit obviously sides with Preservation, but what a weak comparison. What nags me the most is that is seems we are being pulled away from any focus on Preservation. It appears so mundane and weak, yet has been in power to some extent since TLR's ascension.
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Having escaped death at the climax of The Well of Ascension only by becoming a Mistborn himself, Emperor Elend Venture hopes to find clues left behind by the Lord Ruler that will allow him to save the world. Vin is consumed with guilt at having been tricked into releasing the mystic force known as Ruin from the Well. Ruin wants to end the world, and its near omniscience and ability to warp reality make stopping it seem impossible. She can’t even discuss it with Elend lest Ruin learn their plans!
This quote is essentially from the book-flap. I don't think that we can run too far with it, accuracy-wise.
"You know why I thought you'd save me?" he tried to whisper to her, though he somehow knew that his lips weren't properly forming the words. [. . . ]
"Of course I didn't tell you to kill her," God said.
From these two quotes, I'm pretty sure Ruin can "hear," but not read minds. Hemalurgists are tricky . . . . Zane was speaking those words, but they were unintelligible. Either Ruin pieced together what Zane was trying to say because he's cool like that, or Ruin could read Zane's mind. Elend and Vin could have to keep silent for fear of Ruin overhearing their conversation, or because he could read Vin's mind. If Ruin can see into Hemalurgist's minds though, I would assume that he could only do so to a relative extent as to how much Hemalurgy the person possessed. So he knows basically everything about Inquisitors, knows at least enough about Zane to tell when he's near someone, and knows enough about Vin to make her and Elend not want to risk talking about their plans.
This is a good find; well done. It certainly proves either hearing or mind-reading. It doesn't seem to eliminate either, though; if Ruin can read words on a page by "touch," and then get them properly formatted to replace the old words, then he's got some serious processing-power mojo going on.
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I agree with Darx... Preservation seems far to wimpy from what we've seen. So, I guess, the question is, what have we seen preservation do, and what are it's abilities based on these things?
I can't remember anything.
I would guess Ruin has limited access to Zane's mind through his hemalurgy. So, it's access to Vin's mind would be even more limited. It would have virtually full access to inquisitors.
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I think the problem with Preservations down play lays in the fact that everything that we know about in this world Preservation has always been there. We dont know exactly what Preservation does because we have never been without it. Had Ruin been loose for the past thousand years and Preservation locked away we would notice the effects of Preservation more than the effects of Ruin, this is not to say we don't see them, its more like we over look them. It is quite possible that Preservation has had a hand in alot more things than we realize at his point and all we need to see it is a little concreate deffinition as to what Preservation actualy is, or to put it better what Preservation is capable of.
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I think the problem with Preservations down play lays in the fact that everything that we know about in this world Preservation has always been there. We dont know exactly what Preservation does because we have never been without it. Had Ruin been loose for the past thousand years and Preservation locked away we would notice the effects of Preservation more than the effects of Ruin, this is not to say we don't see them, its more like we over look them. It is quite possible that Preservation has had a hand in alot more things than we realize at his point and all we need to see it is a little concreate deffinition as to what Preservation actualy is, or to put it better what Preservation is capable of.
That's a good point. It's all about perspective.
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Okay, I read through a good chunk of Well of Ascension today, and thought I'd make some points.
First one's a rather small point, I think . . .
Only one way to win a knife fight against a guy with a sword . . . Elend thought, gripping his knife. The thought, oddly, hadn't come from one of his trainers, or even from Vin. He wasn't sure where it came from, but he trusted it.
Preservation, Ruin, or Elend's near death instincts?
The Rabzeen and the Anamnesor were both mythological figures vaguely familiar to Sazed--But they were only two among hosts. Until the discovery of the rubbing, there had been no way to connect their names to the Hero of Ages.
Apparently Terris wasn't the only one of the fourteen lands which had prophecies about the Hero of Ages. Terris was probably just the place that had the most accurate/manipulated prophecies because of their close proximity to the Well of Ascension.
[. . .] Sazed had four copies of the transcription. All were missing the same exact chunk.
[Tindwyl held up a sheet] one that had only half the transcription on it, ending near the middle of the page. A hole had been torn directly in the middle of the page. [. . .]
"How is this possible?" Tindwyl whispered. "How could someone know so much of our work--so much of us?"
"And yet," Sazed asked, "how can they know so little of our abilities? I have the entire transcription stored in my metamind. I can remember it right now."
So. Sazed and Tindwyl have several copies of the manuscript, they've been in the room with them the whole time, (probably) and the tears are all exactly the same. It's pretty obvious to me that the removal of these pieces of paper was done by one of the two entities, but which one? Preservation might have done it to lead Sazed and Tindwyl to second guess that line, to pay more attention to it, or maybe to have to go back and read Kwaan's plate again. Ruin could have done it so they had to tap into their metalminds and retrieve the quote. Keep in mind, they never found those pieces of paper which went missing initially. Sazed only found the corner of the page which had been ripped after he rewrote it from his metalmind.
This leads me to believe it was Ruin's doing. By destroying that sentence, Sazed had to tap his metalmind, where Ruin could change what he wished. I don't have any idea why it was torn later on, perhaps Preservation tore it and left the piece where Sazed would find it for some reason.
[. . .] While the Lord Ruler ruled, society could not progress. He kept a stabilizing hand on the empire, but it was an oppressive hand as well. Fashion stayed remarkably unchanged for a thousand years, the noblemen always trying to fit the Lord Ruler's ideals. Architecture and science did not progress, for the Lord Ruler frowned on change and invention.
Evidence for The Lord Ruler and Preservation being connected somehow.
"It's the mist spirit," Vin said, walking by and dumping an armload of wood beside the firepit. "It's chasing us."
Now why would the mist spirit chase these three? What would Preservation stand to gain by following Vin, Elend, or Spook? You'd think that it would be more focused on preventing anyone from finding the Well of Ascension within Luthadel, so why does it follow them? Is it just because Ruin seems to have taken such an interest in Vin?
Yet [the mists] did. They farther they'd gotten from Luthadel, the longer the mists lingered in the mornings.
If the daytime mists are part of the Deepness, and that's part of Ruin, then this could be taken as proof that Preservation had the strongest force in Luthadel, on top the Well of Ascension. Even more proof of the Lord Ruler/Preservation connection?
And yet it was real. She could feel it, and she could see it--see it as it looked up, meeting her gaze with invisible eyes.
Hateful eyes.
It raised an insubstantial arm, and Vin saw something flash. She reacted immediately, whipping out a dagger, bursting into the tent and swinging. Her blow met something tangible in the mist spirit's hand. A metallic sound rang in the calm air, and Vin felt a powerful, numbing chill in her arm. The hairs across her entire body prickled.
Okay, first off, why did the mist spirit attack Elend? Just to try and get at Vin? Why does it seem to hate her? Perhaps this is because it knows Vin is going to go the Well of Ascension, and it is angry at her for leaving Luthadel. Or perhaps it doesn't like married people. Something is up there. And for reference, another similar event happens on page 121, and during that episode Vin feels a pain moving from her ear to her head.
No. She knew the Lord Ruler had built the Inquisitors with a weakness: Remove a particular spike from their back, and they'd die. He had also built the kandra with a weakness. The koloss had to have a weakness, too. [. . .]
Cousins indeed. The Lord Ruler had built the koloss with a weakness--the same weakness as the kandra. He had given himself a way to keep them in check.
Okay, based off of this, I pull out a few assumptions. First off, The Lord Ruler probably created koloss and kandra with the power from the Well of Ascension. The fact that they're so similar in their weakness, and the fact that The Lord Ruler was the only Allomancer with enough power to control them (Without duralumin of course.) makes this pretty obvious to me. However, what's up with The Lord Ruler and Hemalurgy/Inquistors? If he made them with the power from the Well, I'd think he would have made them with the same weakness. Instead, they have a totally different (Hemalurgic?) weakness. But on the flop side, why do Inquisitor's have the weakness at all? Zane survives just fine with only one spike, and it's not the linchpin spike. It also went right through his heart. There's always another secret.
"It's what I would do," Vin said. "If I knew the power would return, if I wanted to preserve it. I'd hide the Well. [. . .]"
More The Lord Ruler/Preservation stuff.
I'm going mad, [Elend] thought, hands beginning to shake. The mist figure stopped a few feet in front of him and then raised its right arm and pointed.
North. Away from Luthadel.
Why would the mist spirit want Elend to go north? As far as we know, there's nothing important up there. Maybe to draw Vin away from the Well? But then why does it seem to hate her? Is there maybe another reason the mist spirit appeared to Elend? And why not do it while Lestibournes was around? (Also, it appears something, maybe the mist spirit, made a noise right before this happened.) And then right after that, there's . . . .
The thing pointed again. Elend cocked his head. It certainly didn't seem threatening. In fact, he felt an unnatural feeling of peace coming from it.
Allomancy? he thought. It's Pulling on my emotions!
The mist spirit has Allomancy, it would appear. Or at least, it can Pull on Elend's emotions. (Or possibly Soothe them.) On top of that there's that whole bronze pulse deal. It makes it pretty clear to me that the mist spirit is connected to Allomancy somehow. The mist spirit also does similar things in it's appearance to Sazed at the end of the book. Page 561 for the curious.
"We didn't," she said firmly, standing, looking south. Focusing, she could feel the thumpings, washing across her. Pulling her.
The Well of Ascension is a Pulling metal? Just a thought.
"Well, I've seen [the mist spirit] again," Vin said, "It's like a ghost, formed from the patterns in mist. I see it all the time, watching me, following me. And I hear those rhythms in my head--majestic, powerful thumpings, like Allomantic pulses. Only, I don't need bronze anymore to hear them.
Don't need bronze anymore eh? But, don't dismiss Allomancy entirely.
I have to find the Well, [Vin] thought with determination, burning bronze, the thumpings--which she'd been ignoring during the battle--becoming loud to her ears.
It appears that bronze still makes the thumpings more prominent. And let's go way back to the roots here, with . . .
For a moment, she thought she felt something. Something
very strange—a slow pulsing, like a distant drum, unlike any
Allomantic rhythm she’d felt before. But it wasn’t coming
from Kelsier. It was distant . . . far away. She focused harder,
trying to pick out the direction it was coming from.
That one sure struck me as odd.
So what's up with the Allomancy link here? And if bronze lets Vin hear the pulsings, why can she later hear them without it? This is one of my favorites, and I'm pretty much clueless here. So, moving on . . .
"Kill him," God said. "He's really not that important."
God (Ruin) obviously knows quite a lot about Zane's surroundings. He occasionally says all these little random things about people, things that lead me to believe his senses are very acute.
Vin shook her head. This felt right.
The smoke didn't choke her, as she expected. There was something oddly welcoming about it.
What's with all this rightness? And speaking of that smoke . . .
It had ended here, at a second, slightly smaller cavern that was clogged with a thick, dark smoke. It didn't seep out of the cavern, as it should have, but billowed and churned upon itself.
It isn't a shadow
This dark thing that follows me, the thing that only I can see--it's isn't really a shadow. It is blackish and translucent, but it doesn't have a shadowlike solid outline. It's insubstantial--wispy and formless. Like it's made out of black fog.
Or mist, perhaps.
See a resemblance there? This leads credence to my theory that that blackish smoke is what the Deepness had become right before The Lord Ruler ascended. It's dark and most people would find it terrifying and formless, and it's blackness might make them not associate it with something as simple as mist.
Okay, I think that's all for now. Maybe I'll post a few things in the Hemalurgy thread, but I don't have a whole lot there. Anyways, what are your guys thoughts on this stuff? Ruin and Preservation are complicated, that's for sure.
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First one's a rather small point, I think . . .
Only one way to win a knife fight against a guy with a sword . . . Elend thought, gripping his knife. The thought, oddly, hadn't come from one of his trainers, or even from Vin. He wasn't sure where it came from, but he trusted it.
Preservation, Ruin, or Elend's near death instincts?
I definitely don't think it's Elend's near death instincts. With Ruin talking through these sorts of voices, this voice must be a manipulation either by Ruin or Preservation.
The Rabzeen and the Anamnesor were both mythological figures vaguely familiar to Sazed--But they were only two among hosts. Until the discovery of the rubbing, there had been no way to connect their names to the Hero of Ages.
Apparently Terris wasn't the only one of the fourteen lands which had prophecies about the Hero of Ages. Terris was probably just the place that had the most accurate/manipulated prophecies because of their close proximity to the Well of Ascension.
Fourteen? Where did fourteen come from?
Vin shook her head. This felt right.
The smoke didn't choke her, as she expected. There was something oddly welcoming about it.
What's with all this rightness? And speaking of that smoke . . .
It had ended here, at a second, slightly smaller cavern that was clogged with a thick, dark smoke. It didn't seep out of the cavern, as it should have, but billowed and churned upon itself.
It isn't a shadow
This dark thing that follows me, the thing that only I can see--it's isn't really a shadow. It is blackish and translucent, but it doesn't have a shadowlike solid outline. It's insubstantial--wispy and formless. Like it's made out of black fog.
Or mist, perhaps.
See a resemblance there? This leads credence to my theory that that blackish smoke is what the Deepness had become right before The Lord Ruler ascended. It's dark and most people would find it terrifying and formless, and it's blackness might make them not associate it with something as simple as mist.
Okay, I think that's all for now. Maybe I'll post a few things in the Hemalurgy thread, but I don't have a whole lot there. Anyways, what are your guys thoughts on this stuff? Ruin and Preservation are complicated, that's for sure.
Black fog... That is very important, but I don't know why. I do believe, however, that the mist spirit that Vin saw was not blackish in any way.
Also, I checked in the epigraphs of Mistborn 1, and the quote is the same there as it appears in WoA. That means Ruin did not manipulate it.
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There is a whole lot to your post, but I will focus on the well and mist spirit for a moment. There are two pulses she feels, one from the mist spirit, and one from the well. She recognizes the pulses from the mist spirit, but the well is a mystery to her at first. The fact that the well's pulse gets stronger fits with Kwaan's writings about the Millenial Power. As the well got stronger, so did the pulses. It is interesting that she begins to feel it in book 1, if only for a moment. It eventually becomes strong enough for her to feel it through her Hemalurgy earring, which she can enhance through Allomancy. I am completely convinced that her ability to pierce copper clouds is due to the combined powers of Allomancy and Hemalurgy. Alendi had piercings but no Allomancy, and he could feel the pulses as well.
Now for the mist spirit. The mist spirit didn't want to keep Vin from the well, but rather wanted to keep her from giving away the power. Therefore, It was trying to remove influences that would prevent her from keeping the power for herself. If the mist spirit didn't want her to find the well, it could have simply killed her. Instead, it tried to take her earring from her ear, tried twice to hurt Elend (and succeeded the second time) so she would use the power to heal him, and it also tried to keep Elend from Luthadel so he wouldn't influence her decision. Finally, I believe it was the mist spirit who was tearing the pages of the manuscript. It wanted them to focus on that sentence. Ruin had already changed it, and would have wanted them to move away from it, so they wouldn't question it. The mist spirit is definitely linked to Preservation somehow, I just can't say to what degree.
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i am fairly sure the mist spirit was silvery-white; almost like the liquid metal in the Well...
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i am fairly sure the mist spirit was silvery-white; almost like the liquid metal in the Well...
Actually I'm almost positive it was described as the mists forming what appeared to be a body. It was made of mists not a liquid metal color.
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First one's a rather small point, I think . . .
Only one way to win a knife fight against a guy with a sword . . . Elend thought, gripping his knife. The thought, oddly, hadn't come from one of his trainers, or even from Vin. He wasn't sure where it came from, but he trusted it.
Preservation, Ruin, or Elend's near death instincts?
I vote not Ruin... And likely not Preservation either, though that is the more likely of the two. My guess is that it's actually something random he read over the years. He read a lot of stuff. Plus, it just makes sense.
The Rabzeen and the Anamnesor were both mythological figures vaguely familiar to Sazed--But they were only two among hosts. Until the discovery of the rubbing, there had been no way to connect their names to the Hero of Ages.
Apparently Terris wasn't the only one of the fourteen lands which had prophecies about the Hero of Ages. Terris was probably just the place that had the most accurate/manipulated prophecies because of their close proximity to the Well of Ascension.
Fourteen? Where did fourteen come from?
Yes, where did fourteen come from? And I believe that since Terris is the origin of the prophecies, it's likely that they had the most manipulated because they were the ones who could say the prophecies were different and everyone else would think that their own prophecies were the ones that were wrong.
[. . .] Sazed had four copies of the transcription. All were missing the same exact chunk.
[Tindwyl held up a sheet] one that had only half the transcription on it, ending near the middle of the page. A hole had been torn directly in the middle of the page. [. . .]
"How is this possible?" Tindwyl whispered. "How could someone know so much of our work--so much of us?"
"And yet," Sazed asked, "how can they know so little of our abilities? I have the entire transcription stored in my metamind. I can remember it right now."
So. Sazed and Tindwyl have several copies of the manuscript, they've been in the room with them the whole time, (probably) and the tears are all exactly the same. It's pretty obvious to me that the removal of these pieces of paper was done by one of the two entities, but which one? Preservation might have done it to lead Sazed and Tindwyl to second guess that line, to pay more attention to it, or maybe to have to go back and read Kwaan's plate again. Ruin could have done it so they had to tap into their metalminds and retrieve the quote. Keep in mind, they never found those pieces of paper which went missing initially. Sazed only found the corner of the page which had been ripped after he rewrote it from his metalmind.
This leads me to believe it was Ruin's doing. By destroying that sentence, Sazed had to tap his metalmind, where Ruin could change what he wished. I don't have any idea why it was torn later on, perhaps Preservation tore it and left the piece where Sazed would find it for some reason.
I like it. Either Ruin or Preservation makes sense, but I tend to think Ruin, as you said. Then, after that it was preservation. This is a nice catch. Although we still know that Ruin could have manipulated the manuscript and Preservation ripped them off. We know the Ruin can manipulate stuff written on paper because of the changes between the epigraphs and the rest of the steel plate manuscript translation thingy. So, I've actually changed my mind, Ruin just changed the manuscripts, and preservation ripped them. Then ruin changed the metal mind as well.
No. She knew the Lord Ruler had built the Inquisitors with a weakness: Remove a particular spike from their back, and they'd die. He had also built the kandra with a weakness. The koloss had to have a weakness, too. [. . .]
Cousins indeed. The Lord Ruler had built the koloss with a weakness--the same weakness as the kandra. He had given himself a way to keep them in check.
Okay, based off of this, I pull out a few assumptions. First off, The Lord Ruler probably created koloss and kandra with the power from the Well of Ascension. The fact that they're so similar in their weakness, and the fact that The Lord Ruler was the only Allomancer with enough power to control them (Without duralumin of course.) makes this pretty obvious to me. However, what's up with The Lord Ruler and Hemalurgy/Inquistors? If he made them with the power from the Well, I'd think he would have made them with the same weakness. Instead, they have a totally different (Hemalurgic?) weakness. But on the flop side, why do Inquisitor's have the weakness at all? Zane survives just fine with only one spike, and it's not the linchpin spike. It also went right through his heart. There's always another secret.
My guess is that Zane doesn't die because he only has one spike. I think all of the spikes must be connected. That's the only condition. If there's only one spike...Pretty Easy. If there's eleven, and you can pull one that severs the connection...easy built in weakness.
"Well, I've seen [the mist spirit] again," Vin said, "It's like a ghost, formed from the patterns in mist. I see it all the time, watching me, following me. And I hear those rhythms in my head--majestic, powerful thumpings, like Allomantic pulses. Only, I don't need bronze anymore to hear them.
Don't need bronze anymore eh? But, don't dismiss Allomancy entirely.
I have to find the Well, [Vin] thought with determination, burning bronze, the thumpings--which she'd been ignoring during the battle--becoming loud to her ears.
It appears that bronze still makes the thumpings more prominent. And let's go way back to the roots here, with . . .
For a moment, she thought she felt something. Something
very strange—a slow pulsing, like a distant drum, unlike any
Allomantic rhythm she’d felt before. But it wasn’t coming
from Kelsier. It was distant . . . far away. She focused harder,
trying to pick out the direction it was coming from.
That one sure struck me as odd.
So what's up with the Allomancy link here? And if bronze lets Vin hear the pulsings, why can she later hear them without it? This is one of my favorites, and I'm pretty much clueless here. So, moving on . . .
That's true. Hmmm....
What if the well gives of both allomantic and hemalurgical pulses? That would be a very interesting concept. It doesn't make sense for the one pulse to be "heard" by both systems. I actually really like this idea. Now, the main question I guess is why would it do that?
"Kill him," God said. "He's really not that important."
God (Ruin) obviously knows quite a lot about Zane's surroundings. He occasionally says all these little random things about people, things that lead me to believe his senses are very acute.
I'm beginning to feel this way as well. It seems to me that Ruin and Preservation can likely see/hear everything. But you're right. Ruin knows a lot more than if he were just barely in Zane's mind.
It had ended here, at a second, slightly smaller cavern that was clogged with a thick, dark smoke. It didn't seep out of the cavern, as it should have, but billowed and churned upon itself.
It isn't a shadow
This dark thing that follows me, the thing that only I can see--it's isn't really a shadow. It is blackish and translucent, but it doesn't have a shadowlike solid outline. It's insubstantial--wispy and formless. Like it's made out of black fog.
Or mist, perhaps.
See a resemblance there? This leads credence to my theory that that blackish smoke is what the Deepness had become right before The Lord Ruler ascended. It's dark and most people would find it terrifying and formless, and it's blackness might make them not associate it with something as simple as mist.
Okay, I think that's all for now. Maybe I'll post a few things in the Hemalurgy thread, but I don't have a whole lot there. Anyways, what are your guys thoughts on this stuff? Ruin and Preservation are complicated, that's for sure.
Hmmm. I hadn't noticed that before. I agree with Chaos, though, the smoke is likely very important. And I suppose it's entirely possible that it's the full deepness form of the mists.
Comments on my comments?
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It would be nice if Sazed found the prophecies from one of the other religions that hadn't been manipulated by Ruin. Especially if it's written in metal.
i am fairly sure the mist spirit was silvery-white; almost like the liquid metal in the Well...
Actually I'm almost positive it was described as the mists forming what appeared to be a body. It was made of mists not a liquid metal color.
Yeah, the Mist Spirit doesn't have a color; it doesn't even have an outline. The only reason you can see it is because of the mists swirling around it. Could that be the mists swirling around it because it's using allomancy? And that's why it can disappear! It just stops using allomancy.
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That...actually makes sense.
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OR, OK I'm going out on a limb here, the Mist Spirit is a manifestation created by someone. Like in Alendi's case, maybe his use of Hemalurgy was causing the spirit to come about to tell him what he needed to do at the well in order to make things right. Then again, Vin, with her Allomancy cause it to appear, it trying to tell her what to do. Perhaps creating the Mist Spirit is a subconscious action created by those who are connected to the well in their time of need of guidance. I mean, as far as we know so far, the Spirit disappeared after the incident at the well in both cases.
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Okay, responses to the comments of my post . . .
[The other Worldbringers] couldn't see how my studies, which focused on nature instead of religion, benefited the people of the fourteen lands
That's where the fourteen lands bit comes from. It was apparently one of the names of the world pre-Ascension.
As for the mist spirit/blackish fog issue, what I was trying to say there is that while Vin's mist spirit is made of mist, Alendi's was made of a blackish substance, possibly this same black fog we find below Kredik Shaw. This is why I supported the connection between the two, and on top of that Vin feels right in that fog, the same way she felt right going to the Well and giving up the power. I think this shows that Ruin has at least marginal control over her emotions right then. Alendi says he felt a calming sense of peace right before he went to the Well also.
The reason I still think it would have been Ruin who tore Sazed's manuscripts is because of the fact that I don't think he had a whole lot of power to affect the world when the original tearings were done. Ruin was sitting there in the Well, he knew Sazed and Tindwyl were getting close to that part of the manuscript, and if they saw it enough to commit it to regular memory, he was doomed. So he exerts himself and just destroys that sentence, and makes them rewrite all of the manuscripts with his new change. This way, he only has to do some minor destruction and alter a metalmind instead of focusing his efforts on changing the words of each individual page and making the handwriting fit and putting on ink smudges and all that fun stuff he can do later, when he has more power.
Andrew, your theory about all the spikes being connected makes sense, but there are a few small holes. First off, why is the linchpin spike the only one that kills when it is removed? Second off, what actually determines a "connection" between two of the spikes? I like the idea, but it has wrinkles.
And I like the idea of the mist spirit only being visible while it's using Allomancy. But if that's true, I think the mist spirit has some access to some really wacked out metals. Vin doesn't recognize the pulses coming from it as any metal she knows, so it must be burning something she doesn't know the pulse for. I guess it could be Aluminum or Duralumin, or it could be something weird like burning the mists or the Allomancy-giving metal.
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And I like the idea of the mist spirit only being visible while it's using Allomancy. But if that's true, I think the mist spirit has some access to some really wacked out metals. Vin doesn't recognize the pulses coming from it as any metal she knows, so it must be burning something she doesn't know the pulse for. I guess it could be Aluminum or Duralumin, or it could be something weird like burning the mists or the Allomancy-giving metal.
that is actually a very good idea. And perhaps when she hears the pulsing of the Well it is merely the fact that she can hear it "burning"? I forget, did the book say there was some type of resonance between the pulsing of the mist spirit and the Well?
also as far as the spikes go, i think the only reason pulling the linchpin out of an Inquisitor is because it is keeping it alive somehow. After all Vin has no negative side effects when she takes out her earring but the Inquisitors' lives are at "stake." (ahahaha!) They are so pierced and mutilated by the spikes, it is impossible to survive without them. Eyes, brain, heart, etc all are pierced by the spikes. Perhaps the linchpin's metal has healing properties when used by Hemalurgists.
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And I like the idea of the mist spirit only being visible while it's using Allomancy. But if that's true, I think the mist spirit has some access to some really wacked out metals. Vin doesn't recognize the pulses coming from it as any metal she knows, so it must be burning something she doesn't know the pulse for. I guess it could be Aluminum or Duralumin, or it could be something weird like burning the mists or the Allomancy-giving metal.
that is actually a very good idea. And perhaps when she hears the pulsing of the Well it is merely the fact that she can hear it "burning"? I forget, did the book say there was some type of resonance between the pulsing of the mist spirit and the Well?
also as far as the spikes go, i think the only reason pulling the linchpin out of an Inquisitor is because it is keeping it alive somehow. After all Vin has no negative side effects when she takes out her earring but the Inquisitors' lives are at "stake." (ahahaha!) They are so pierced and mutilated by the spikes, it is impossible to survive without them. Eyes, brain, heart, etc all are pierced by the spikes. Perhaps the linchpin's metal has healing properties when used by Hemalurgists.
But then what about Zane? His spike goes through his heart, I'd think that would kill someone unless something was keeping them alive.
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But then what about Zane? His spike goes through his heart, I'd think that would kill someone unless something was keeping them alive.
Hm yah you got me there.
Do we have any idea in what order the spikes go in first? For example if its the eyes first then its probably not spikes keeping them alive. If it is the linchpin or heart first then its at least possible for that spike to be keeping them alive.
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I don't think it matters which spike goes in first, just where they are located in the body. I believe the metal becomes part of the body in some way, and enhances it. The only way to kill an Inq is to behead it or take out the neck spike, which conveniently runs straight down between the shoulder blades (which is exactly where the spine is). So, it would seem to me that removing that spike is just like beheading them, as it would create a gap between the head and the body.
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well i guess what i am saying is that:
1. having a steel spike driven through your head will kill you.
2. obviously inquisitors are not dead.
3. therefore they are being protected against the negative side effects of being repeatedly punctured by sharp objects. (again, obviously.)
4. the question is what is protecting them from this? is it one of the spikes that prevents them from dying? i guess what you are saying is that the sacrifice protects them.
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well i guess what i am saying is that:
1. having a steel spike driven through your head will kill you.
2. obviously inquisitors are not dead.
3. therefore they are being protected against the negative side effects of being repeatedly punctured by sharp objects. (again, obviously.)
4. the question is what is protecting them from this? is it one of the spikes that prevents them from dying? i guess what you are saying is that the sacrifice protects them.
This goes in the Hemalurgy thread, BUT I think it's the actual Hemalurgy itself that keeps them from dying somehow, but the sacrifice is needed in order to create a Hemalurgist.
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Czanos, my idea was that the spikes simply have to be touching. By my theory, if any spike were to become detached from the rest, the inquisitor would die, not just the lynchpin. Anyway, in the event that someone has proof that I'm wrong, I'll happily shift my belief to the lynchpin having healing properties. And we don't know what order the spikes go in. And if I recall, Zane's spike is in his chest, but I don't think we know for sure it's his heart. So maybe Zane's spike isn't in a position to kill him should it not be the one with healing properties.
And it would seem to me that it would be easier for Ruin to rearrange a few ink atoms than to rip a page off. But that's just personal opinion. It doesn't really make a difference.
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I think the fact that the lynch pin is so easy to remove, compared to the others.
And I believe the well and the mist spirit give off different pulses... On page 34 of WoA, Vin mentions having trouble deciding what metals (yes, plural) the spirit was burning.
On another note, anyone notice that the mists during Vin's fight with Zane were getting higher and higher? They were up to her chin by the time she killed him, and they were inside (page 444-452).
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Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 492
And yet it was real. She could feel it, and she could see it--see it as it looked up, meeting her gaze with invisible eyes.
Hateful eyes.
It raised an insubstantial arm, and Vin saw something flash. She reacted immediately, whipping out a dagger, bursting into the tent and swinging. Her blow met something tangible in the mist spirit's hand. A metallic sound rang in the calm air, and Vin felt a powerful, numbing chill in her arm. The hairs across her entire body prickled.
Okay, first off, why did the mist spirit attack Elend? Just to try and get at Vin? Why does it seem to hate her? Perhaps this is because it knows Vin is going to go the Well of Ascension, and it is angry at her for leaving Luthadel. Or perhaps it doesn't like married people. Something is up there. And for reference, another similar event happens on page 121, and during that episode Vin feels a pain moving from her ear to her head.
Perhaps the mist Spirit doesn't hat Vin, but Elend. Is it jealous perhaps? Or does it hate him because it knows what he will cause her to do? OR maybe it does hate Vin. Who knows. I found something interesting though. The mist spirit has hateful eyes, and doesn't Alendi say something about Rashek's eyes always on him, watching and hating?
I'll continue with all this hemalurgy stuff on the hemalurgy thread...
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Wow, interesting. I'd never noticed that mist spirit had hateful eyes before. In fact, I'd always thought of it as a fairly benevolent force (yeah, it almost kills Elend, but it also saves him). This makes me reconsider. Perhaps the mist spirit is in some way the 'ghost' of Rashek/The Lord Ruler, trying to bring the world back to Preservation's side, the way it was before he died. (if we can even say TLR had a thing for Preservation, which is much debated) After all, it doesn't appear until after the Lord Ruler dies.
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I;m not so sure about that after reading chapter one's bump, perhaps it is just hateful because Vin is undoing it's work of trapping Ruin, and maybe the thing that Ruin is looking for is the mist spirit in order to get revenge.
Just a side not, in a post Ookla said he's not saying anything about WHO or what Preservation is. Does that mean Preservation is a who (and not the Seuss kind) meaning a character? Don't respond to that ookla!
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I very much like your idea of the Mist Spirit being the original HoA.
I think that they can both be a WHO, but they need a physical form first and in that manner they can control the physical world.
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i do like the idea of the Mist Spirit being the real HoA. I don't know about it being the original though...I guess you guys are saying its like the tormented spirit of the original still hanging on after all these millenia? It just doesn't strike me as something Sanderson would do.
Also it seems like a physical form would simply confine Ruin/Preservation more.
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Also it seems like a physical form would simply confine Ruin/Preservation more
.
Huh? Explain.
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well Ruin can obviously already control the physical world to a certain extent, and it seems like limiting himself to a single person and place at one time would confine him rather than give him more power.
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Quick lesson on the lower level plains.
Lowest plain - This is the level we reach when we have nightmares. Existing in this level would be what Christians call 'Hell'.
Dream plain - This is where most dreams and subconscious thought takes place.
Astral plain - This and the physical level are parallel to each other. This is a near mirror image of the physical world and is where cognitive thought takes place. Living on this plain would be like being stuck in 'limbo'. You can project your conscious mind into this plain while your body sleeps. While here you can see the physical world but can't directly influence it.
Physical plain - Where we live from day to day.
Upper plain (1) - This is a euphoria where we are still attached to many physical things, but have reached a level of enlightenment that allows us to live happily with each other. Similar to the Christian 'heaven'.
((There are I believe 4 more levels above this, but they aren't necessary for this discussion.))
My thought is that Ruin is stuck in the Astral Plain and can't DIRECTLY affect the physical plain and therefore needs a physical form to escape those confinements.
((Note: This information is drawn from MANY religious and cultural views. Although between some religions names and preciseness about what happens on each plain varies. Brandon has been known to use religion a lot in his books.))
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Ok Reaves, I get what you are saying, I just don't get how this relates to the mist spirit, being or not being the hero.
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Just a side not, in a post Ookla said he's not saying anything about WHO or what Preservation is. Does that mean Preservation is a who (and not the Seuss kind) meaning a character?
plus its kinda the topic of this thread :D
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Just a side not, in a post Ookla said he's not saying anything about WHO or what Preservation is. Does that mean Preservation is a who (and not the Seuss kind) meaning a character? Don't respond to that ookla!
Emphasis mine. That pretty much makes the point I was trying for.
The problem with your logic, Miyabi, is that you are assuming that their world is exactly like ours, and they function in exactly the same way we do. Granted, this is likely, but we don't know for sure that they can dream. Besides, who's to say that Ruin and Preservation aren't in some random plain where they have a physical form but not the ability to do anything with it? I still think that Ruin and Preservation have no need of any physical form. But, just personal opinion.
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Quick lesson on the lower level plains.
Lowest plain - This is the level we reach when we have nightmares. Existing in this level would be what Christians call 'Hell'.
Dream plain - This is where most dreams and subconscious thought takes place.
Astral plain - This and the physical level are parallel to each other. This is a near mirror image of the physical world and is where cognitive thought takes place. Living on this plain would be like being stuck in 'limbo'. You can project your conscious mind into this plain while your body sleeps. While here you can see the physical world but can't directly influence it.
Physical plain - Where we live from day to day.
Upper plain (1) - This is a euphoria where we are still attached to many physical things, but have reached a level of enlightenment that allows us to live happily with each other. Similar to the Christian 'heaven'.
((There are I believe 4 more levels above this, but they aren't necessary for this discussion.))
My thought is that Ruin is stuck in the Astral Plain and can't DIRECTLY affect the physical plain and therefore needs a physical form to escape those confinements.
((Note: This information is drawn from MANY religious and cultural views. Although between some religions names and preciseness about what happens on each plain varies. Brandon has been known to use religion a lot in his books.))
Or it could be . . .
Physical Plain - Realm where we live on. During sleep random synapse firings in our brains trigger random events in our brain, which does it's darndest to connect them all leaving us with the sensation of dreaming as our brain continues to function. After we leave this plain, our bodies slowly decompose into dirt around us and our brain ceases to function. Ruin and Preservation are just hallucinations had by the characters, and a side effect of having two metal spikes driven through your head all Steel Inquisitors are schizophrenic. The Well of Ascension is a sinkhole of a thousand year's worth of the planet's magnetic forces, and someone who disrupts the flow can then direct it to wherever they wish.
Admittedly, that's a rather atheistic view, but it is by no means solid that Ruin is in any Astral plane of your choosing, or even that Astral planes exist in our worlds. (Though I am by no means atheistic, religion isn't fully understood yet.) I think I have to agree with Reaves, getting a body seems kind of like it would weaken him instead. Sure he could walk and talk and eat stuff, but no bodies I know of would allow him to omnisciently warp reality anywhere in the world. If it's a trade off between being a parasite to some host and being an almost God, I think I'd go with the almost God.
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I love it when people say what I was trying to say.
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Well I still believe you have to belong to the physical plain in order to affect it and THAT is the thing that Ruin still needs.
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OK< I get it now, I don't think Ruin would want a body, I agree with you guys, it would weaken him, I think Preservation might be trapped in a body somewhere, explaining why his power is limited, and ruin wants to find this force and either control it or stop the PReservation body from causing trouble.
In Final Empire Prime, Sha, or the destruction force, seeks to bond with the Lord Ruler character because it's the only way it has a sentient mind, Ruin already has this, thus I see no point for it to want a body.
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in the future you may want to add something like FINAL EMPIRE: PRIME SPOILERS. I probably would have read it anyway but we'll never know now will we... :-\
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Yeah, spoiler warnings are nice. Even though I accidentally read a post once that had like the whole story in it. D: ha ha.
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It's a mistake to draw any conclusions based on a Prime book. Yes, some things turn out the same, but more things don't.
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I'm just drawing information from anywhere I can, and sorry about the spoiler warnings Reaves, they're just in the sample chapters on Brandon's site, that reference came from chapter one I believe, so I didn't think it would be a big deal, and it had already been mentioned on another thread I think, but sorry though if I ruined anything for you. I'll be more careful next time.
And Ookla, I'm tempted to try once more to ignore your comments, because they really get me know where, are you saying I'm wrong, are you giving me advice because other things are changed, are you trying to turn me away from the right direction, I just can't decide. It's really quite frustrating!!!
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I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm just reminding everyone that the Prime books are a very unreliable source of conclusions about the non-Prime books. They may bring up interesting possibilities to consider, but drawing a conclusion because something was one way in a Prime book would be hasty.
Ruin is sentient...but Brandon might have thought up a different reason why he might want a body (or not).
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Coma, when you figure out how to resist reading Ook's posts, please let me know, because they drive me crazy. ha ha. I have NO idea what to think about them, it just makes theorizing even harder than normal. xP
I still think he needs a body to affect the physical world, because you can't affect a plain unless you exist in it.
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Is there any prior evidence in the Mistborn books of a "plane" system?
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No, but it's something that a lot of metaphysical scientists theorize about and Brandon puts some reality into his books so I'm assuming that there is a potential for it to be what Ruin is missing is a doorway into the physical part of the world.
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[sarcasm]
I've got it! Ruin is looking for the other atium mine so he can harvest all the atium and use it to buy all the kandra. Then he'll have all the kandra impersonate people who are in charge of those commanding koloss, then have them use the koloss to kill all the other humans. (Kandra prophecy, fulfilled.) He will then use his Steel Inquisitors to kill all the kandra, and then kill themselves. He will then be free of all those pesky things standing in the way of the deepness ravaging the world, and can live happily ever after!
[/sarcasm] :)
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[sarcasm]
I've got it! Ruin is looking for the other atium mine so he can harvest all the atium and use it to buy all the kandra. Then he'll have all the kandra impersonate people who are in charge of those commanding koloss, then have them use the koloss to kill all the other humans. (Kandra prophecy, fulfilled.) He will then use his Steel Inquisitors to kill all the kandra, and then kill themselves. He will then be free of all those pesky things standing in the way of the deepness ravaging the world, and can live happily ever after!
[/sarcasm] :)
That's so crazy it just might work.
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For anyone who didn't know: In Mistborn Prime, there were two atium mines.
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FIRST he tells us not to look too much into MBP NOW he tells us there were two mines. . . . GRRR! ha ha
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Exactly. :)
(Anyway, Czanos mentioned it first.)
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I've said in a theory a while back (I believe in the "Gemmel" topic) that atium is very unique for it to not be very, very important in some way we have not touched upon yet--different from the clear Allomantic and economic importance. Atium, unlike every other metal discovered in the Mistborn universe, is only made from one place. It's the only metal that Brandon did not take from the real world. Kandra insist by being paid by atium only, despite there being no indication that they'd need the economic power from it in the first place (having no economy) or the Allomantic advantages (since they don't use Allomancy)--I believe it was touched on that in MB3, the reason for the kandra wanting atium would be explained.
Atium is important in some way. Wee, yet another plot point to discuss!
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Atium Malatium, and the 15 and 16 metals... they're the only ones made up, that has to be for a reason, what is it? What do they all have in common besides being from the same category of metals? Are they of value to Ruin and or Preservation?
You bring up an interesting point, I hand't realized yet: Why do the Kandra want Atium? They have no allomancy (not that we know of anyway), so why be paid in atium.
They must have worked up quite the stash through the years, maybe that's where all the Lord Ruler's atium went, the Kandra got to it first!
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Actually, atium is the only metal we know of to be made up. (I think I remember malatium being part some real metal, meaning only the atium part of it was made up.) We don't know for sure what the 15th and 16th metals do, and the metal Elend ate could have been something like Uranium.
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That could have some interesting effects...
Also, Chaos just PMed me and said he won't be posting for a few days, so before any of us start to wonder...
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Thanks for letting us know Chaos! I should do that more often, before randomly disappearing for weeks at a time.
And yes, perhapps the 15th metal IS Uranium, and Allomancy is just a result of the radiation! There we go, puzzle solved. Let's all tuck in for a good night's rest! ;D.
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Well if they had that much Atium they could BUY the Kandra's contracts from other people. I don't ever remember the Kandra getting paid.
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But they DO get payed. It is stated frequently that Kandra are extremely expensive and their contracts have to be paid for with atium. And the Kandra need the contracts for survival, as long as they are useful, the are not feared, and thus not exterminated. When a contract expires, the Kandra seek another contract, they don't want to get out of their contracts. Kelsier says he used most of his atium at the start of book one buying Ore Seur's contract.
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Atium must be Kandra eggs which they are trying to get back. The female Kandra morphs into a gelatinous ooze, sinks down into the ground and leaves her geode for the male to inseminate. Man, I would hate to work in the pits....
Edit: BTW, this type of geniusness deserves another star.
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And the mistborn...eating kandra eggs all the time. Hmmm..
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And the ATium images are really just hallucinations, caused by having a mini Kandra parasite living in your stomach ;D
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Thanks Coma, I somehow overlooked that. :/ ha ha. ROFL. Hey, did anyone else notice all of the Spam since we got hacked? I hate people who hack just to piss people off.
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I haven't noticed any spam yet. Perhaps I'm not looking in the right places. I'll try harder.
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Yeah, I hadn't seen any either. Where were you talking about, miyabi?
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Not in the Sanderson threads. They are in Site News and in the Eric James Stone forums.
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Hmm...i had forgotten the kandra needed to be paid in atium. I think once we know the hemalurgical use for atium much will be revealed...
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Does hemalurgy have a use for it? We don't know any feruchemical use for aluminum duralumin or malatium. Perhaps all the metals aren't the same.
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I would assume hemalurgy has a use for atium. But then again, I also think that the lord rulers atium bracers on his arms are the piercings of the hero, so...It makes sense. And remember that MB1 Prologue Epigraph? "They say I will hold the future of the world on my arms." Or something similar. Anyway, the important part is the on my arms. Maybe atium's hemalurgical power is like super-duper amazing.
Edit: Hmmmm....What if that's more literal than we were thinking? Burning atium through allomancy lets you see the future. Maybe the hemalurgical ability of atium is to see a really really long time into the future. Like...forever....I don't know. But it sounded really cool in my head a few minutes ago. And this should actually be in the hemalurgy thread....
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whoaa that is a really good idea. I always thought something about that sentence was awkward...i definitely think you are onto something.
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But why does Brandon, in his annotation, say "instead," when referring to ripping of the bracers. This makes it same like they are not hemalurgical, because someone using only hemalurgy would be killed by the back spike thing.
Although I admit, I hold the future on my arms, and having future seeing metal on ones arms is a bit coincidental. Perhaps...
Anyways, I'm still thinking about this one, I'll get back to you.
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To me, Brandon says instead because if Marsh had ripped out those bracers, then TLR would have aged rapidly just like how Vin killed him.
I see holding the future in my arms as holding the fate of the world in my arms type of thing. Atium lets you see what is directly in front of you and what affects you, not a general what coming up in the future. I don't think there is enough evidence to say that Hemalurgy takes the power of Atium and makes it a lot more powerful than Allomancy. Hemalurgists do heal faster and they are more attuned to seeing metal traces, but I think that comes from prolonged use as indicated by Spook's enhanced senses in the preview chapter. Brandon does state that any Allomancy could learn to see as the Steel Inquisitors do. Maybe a Mistborn can learn to heal as fast as well.
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To me, Brandon says instead because if Marsh had ripped out those bracers, then TLR would have aged rapidly just like how Vin killed him.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Vin killed him by taking away his FERUCHEMY, and made him age rapidly, not take away his HEMALURGY, which would have had another effect. Marsh tries to take away his hemalurgy by pulling out the lynch spike, however the Lord Ruler does not have one. He's saying if marsh had ripped out the bracelets and taken out his feruchemy instead, his plan would have worked, because the lord ruler's power does not come only from hemalurgy.
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I agree with you.
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TLR had probably assumed someone would try to take the Lynch pin at some point and put his in a different place. So maybe there were a few different ways to kill him?
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No I'm pretty sure what Brandon is saying is the only way to defeat him is the bracers. That or overpowering him, which is pretty much impossible.
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Coof, the reason that sentence is interpreted so much is because it says "They say I will hold the future of the entire world on my arms." Not in - on. So that's why the bracers came to mind. To be honest, I actually don't like my own idea here. It was just something crazy that came to me spur of the moment.
However, I think that the hemalurgical property of atium is gonna be something pretty awesome.
And see Coma's post above mine for my thoughts on the other discussion.
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You know what I just thought? On October 14th and we finally get our hands on that book, it is going to take a colossal amount of willpower to not immediately flip to the Ars Arcanum in the back, which would probably have a list of powers for every metal.
...I don't think I have that kind of willpower...
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You know Chaos I think I have faith in your willpower. Im not basing that on how much I know you, Im basing it on the fact that we will all probably finish the book in a couple of hours due to all of this posting and anticipation. So in reality it wont be a long time from when you have the book to when you can safely read the Arcanum in the back
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The moment I get that book, I will probably skip eating, sleeping, or other bodily functions until its done! It will get done that same day!
That way, I can come back to the forums and either profess my insanity, or smile in glee that I was right about a lot of things.
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That way, I can come back to the forums and either profess my insanity, or smile in glee that I was right about a lot of things.
More likely, a little of each.
On the willpower thing, though, I don't expect the exact uses of the last couple metals to be the biggest twist in the plot - and if it is, they won't be included in the Ars. (Hmm, that last phrase sounded crude.) So I won't really be tempted to skip to it first; my temptation might be to read the last couple pages and at least see who's still alive. But I'm going to try really hard to resist.
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Yeah, we'll all do a little of each I imagine.
And why resist the temptation? Brandon's not going to put anything that's going to majorly ruin the plot in the Ars Arcanum. But even if he did, I'll likely get the book and not even think about anything except just diving in. I'll probably be done in 5 or 6 hours at the most. Then it's back to here to post.
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yeah, i don't think its gonna be too big of a deal to look at the Ars. (Gosh sarah i will never be able to say that again without thinking of you. And look, now ive just made it a whole lot worse.)
I never really bought into the idea that the last two metals were imbued with godlike power. Giving allomancy seems like power enough. Skipping to the back is not a temptation for me.
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I am most excited to see what it says about Hemalurgy. . . those will be the first pages I read. I have NO will power. ha ha.
I will either have to finish the book the same day . . . or not get on TWG until I am finished, because I'm SURE I'd walk right over a couple hundred spoilers.
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I would not recommend looking at it. I don't know what's going to be in it, though.
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Well, my only thought is that since it is the final book in the series, it would be relatively complete.
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Yeah. And I'm a sucker for spoilers. ;D ::)
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It seems such a waste to go for spoilers when you have the story right there in front of you. That's just...wrong.
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I know . . . but it's SOOOOO hard to not look. ha ha.
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That's what I'm sayin', man. It takes willpower! Willpower that months of waiting will pretty much erode!
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Maybe I'll ask the clerk at Walden's to just cut out the back pages for me, then buy a new copy once I'm done. ha ha.
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I was just going to suggest that. Do what you must! This is not a book you want to spoil, if ever there was. (Not that I guarantee the Ars Arcanum will spoil anything, mind, since I haven't seen it.)
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Dang it, Ookla! You are only make us more excited for this book! Curse you!
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lol i think at this point if he said the book sucks its a waste of paper he would make us more excited.
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lol i think at this point if he said the book sucks its a waste of paper he would make us more excited.
The sad thing being . . . your right. ha ha.
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Well, don't forget that I said I'm positive some people are going to hate Brandon for the ending.
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Well, don't forget that I said I'm positive some people are going to hate Brandon for the ending.
Ookla where'd you say that? I've been all over this place (not posting obviously) and haven't seen it.
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I think it's actually in this topic, way, way earlier. Of course, I could be wrong on that one, but that's where I seem to remember it.
I definitely recall that Ookla said this before, however.
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It seems like something Ookla would say. Utterly mysterious, and yet it dangles enough info to excite our crazy minds.
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It's just another red herring from Ookla. Of course he said 'I'm positive some people are going to hate Brandon for the ending.', he just didn't use those words together in the same posts.
BTW, what's up with the old forum look again?
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The site's back up as well. I assume Spriggan fixed everything.
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That's good, because the other one expanded to my entire screen's width. Things look abnormal stretched over a widescreen monitor...
No, Ookla isn't trying to fake you out. I'm positive of this. It's less of "MUWHAAHAHAA I AM AN ALPHA READER AND I WILL TORMENT YOU WITH THIS FAKE FOR ETERNITY!" and more "This ending is so unique, but I can see that some people won't like it."
That's my take of it.
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That's good, because the other one expanded to my entire screen's width. Things look abnormal stretched over a widescreen monitor...
No, Ookla isn't trying to fake you out. I'm positive of this. It's less of "MUWHAAHAHAA I AM AN ALPHA READER AND I WILL TORMENT YOU WITH THIS FAKE FOR ETERNITY!" and more "This ending is so unique, but I can see that some people won't like it."
That's my take of it.
I agree on both accounts.
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Next month you'll be saying, "Man, Ookla wasn't kidding! Curse you, Brandon!"
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Next month you'll be saying, "Man, Ookla wasn't kidding! Curse you, Brandon!"
We'll see :P
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Next month you'll be saying, "Man, Ookla wasn't kidding! Curse you, Brandon!"
We'll see :P
I am jealous of, get mad at, and love Ook more and more with all these comments. ha ha!
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My guess is, someon we care about dies. That's the only thing I could see making me hate the ending of a book written by someone as goodas brandon.
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My guess is, someon we care about dies. That's the only thing I could see making me hate the ending of a book written by someone as goodas brandon.
-plugs ears- LA LA L AL AL LA LA LA LA L AL ALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!
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My guess is, someon we care about dies. That's the only thing I could see making me hate the ending of a book written by someone as goodas brandon.
Well, he killed Kelsier and we forgave him for it :P
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My guess is, someon we care about dies. That's the only thing I could see making me hate the ending of a book written by someone as goodas brandon.
Well, he killed Kelsier and we forgave him for it :P
But Kell needed to die. It was essential to the story.
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My guess is, someon we care about dies. That's the only thing I could see making me hate the ending of a book written by someone as goodas brandon.
Well, he killed Kelsier and we forgave him for it :P
But Kell needed to die. It was essential to the story.
Yeah. And any other deaths will probably be essential to the story too. That doesn't stop them from happening.
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My guess is, someon we care about dies. That's the only thing I could see making me hate the ending of a book written by someone as goodas brandon.
Well, he killed Kelsier and we forgave him for it :P
But Kell needed to die. It was essential to the story.
Yeah. And any other deaths will probably be essential to the story too. That doesn't stop them from happening.
Precisely my point. We could hate it as it happens... but later, we will love it.
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hey i still don't think Kelsier needed to die :D
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hey i still don't think Kelsier needed to die :D
But Vin would not have grown if he hadn't. She wouldn't have pushed so hard and remained too phlegmatic.
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I think I'll be sadder if he kills of Sazed than I was when he killed Kelsier, tbh. And unfortunately, Sazed's death could also serve sort of the same push Vin needs for something. :(
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I think I'll be sadder if he kills of Sazed than I was when he killed Kelsier, tbh. And unfortunately, Sazed's death could also serve sort of the same push Vin needs for something. :(
Yes, it would be very sad. I think I would cry. :'(
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OK, after reading Brandon's newest annotation, I'm pretty sure the mist spirit is very connected to either Ruin or Preservation. Brandon makes a note that the Spirit's Bronze pulses are the same as the pulses of the well. Well, if the pulses of the well are from Ruin (assuming that only those with hemalurgy can hear them), then what is the Mist Spirit. As of yet, we have heard no deepness pulses, so is the Mist Spirit more than just Preservation's mist servant?
Rereading Well of Acension also got me thinking. You know the part with Sazed's Lock and Key speech? Well, what if this also applies here. For example, the deepness, and the well seem like opposites at first, they oppose eachother, until we find out the the deepness was really jsut a means of making the world desperate enough to release Ruin from the well: lock and Key. What if there is something similar going on with the Msit spirit and Preservation, or even Preservation and Ruin?
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Interesting. I could see the Deepness being a catalyst used to cause Ruins release. I mean even if TLR didnt repel the mist entierly he had saved the world from Ruin for the most part. Very interesting.