Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Craysh on February 13, 2008, 10:27:52 PM
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I know that Vin discovered the flaw in atium but she only had to use that (IMNHO) because they both had duralumin.
I think a more elegant way to do it (since Vin is so flexible and small) would be to ingest a large amount of pewter and burn duralumin to flare pewter far beyond a normal pewter burn. A person burning atium may be able to see it coming, but if Vin is so fast they can't avoid the attack, atiums advantage is nil. Hell, if she moves fast enough she might be hitting the target faster than the atium can account for it:
atium effect = X
duralumin flare + pewter speed = Y
If Y > X then atium is more of a hindrance (since the person burning the atium is expecting to see where she'll be but won't be able to follow her)
If Y = X then atium is about as useful as the when both Mistborn are burning atium.
Now a question about atium:
Can atium be flared? It's rather rare so I'm not sure if anybody has tried it or not.
And since we've seen that all metals other than atium can be overflared with Duralumin, why not atium?
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good point and another thing to consider when a mistborn flares Duralumin and pewter together they become insanely strong and fast. (Vin's headbutt for example!) so even if someone is burning atium i cant see them being able to react in time. ;D
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Hmmmm....Very interesting Craysh. Although, one problem with that is while atium burns quickly, duralumin burns insanely fast. Another issue that might be a problem is the fact that during a fight Vin might not know that a person is using atium unless she is using it as well or if she has already attacked.
Furthermore, I think it would be impossible to be to fast for atium. Atium gives you the ability to see a couple of instances in the future. So, no matter how fast you are, when you do actually act, it shows you what that action will be before that happens. For example, if someone were to decide to punch an atium burner in the face, the atium burner will have already moved out of the way of the punch before the puncher physically puts that punch into motion . Thus, negating any advantage of how fast said punch will come.
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Hmmmm....Very interesting Craysh. Although, one problem with that is while atium burns quickly, duralumin burns insanely fast. Another issue that might be a problem is the fact that during a fight Vin might not know that a person is using atium unless she is using it as well or if she has already attacked.
Furthermore, I think it would be impossible to be to fast for atium. Atium gives you the ability to see a couple of instances in the future. So, no matter how fast you are, when you do actually act, it shows you what that action will be before that happens. For example, if someone were to decide to punch an atium burner in the face, the atium burner will have already moved out of the way of the punch before the puncher physically puts that punch into motion . Thus, negating any advantage of how fast said punch will come.
I thought of that, which is why I put up the equation. A normal humans vision can only see 60 frames a second. With atium and tin, that might jump to 120 frames a second and a couple of moments into the future (let's say 3 seconds as an approximation), but if duralumin flared pewter makes you close the distance faster than 1/360th of a second, the attack would go faster than atium + tin could account for. Even if it was 1/120th of a second, you'd only see three quick images of the person going for you, giving the atium burner only a vague idea of what you're going to do.
The only way around that would be if atium is like the speed of light in that no matter how fast the observer is going, the speed of light is the same.
Additionally, if the Duralumin + pewter burner is also flaring tin, they'd see the motion of the atium burner dodging/grabbing/countering and they could change their course mid attack to hit the person anyway.
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Hmmmm....Very interesting Craysh. Although, one problem with that is while atium burns quickly, duralumin burns insanely fast. Another issue that might be a problem is the fact that during a fight Vin might not know that a person is using atium unless she is using it as well or if she has already attacked.
Furthermore, I think it would be impossible to be to fast for atium. Atium gives you the ability to see a couple of instances in the future. So, no matter how fast you are, when you do actually act, it shows you what that action will be before that happens. For example, if someone were to decide to punch an atium burner in the face, the atium burner will have already moved out of the way of the punch before the puncher physically puts that punch into motion . Thus, negating any advantage of how fast said punch will come.
A couple of points
. Vin could tell a person was burning atium by burning bronze. (She can pierce copper clouds)
. Duralumin doesn't burn insanely fast it only gives you a massive flare of whatever metal you burn with it thus burning the metal but leaving Duralumin behind for further use.
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When ever I played/wrote short stories/ whatever else, I thought that flaring Atium just let you see a little further into the future. I imagine with duralumin inhanced atium you would just see insanely farther into the future, but this would only hinder you as it would give you more time to alter the effects of which know the future has created, effectivly making that small twitch Vin saw on Zane, into a step or jump. Muh more noticeable.
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I thought of that, which is why I put up the equation. A normal humans vision can only see 60 frames a second. With atium and tin, that might jump to 120 frames a second and a couple of moments into the future (let's say 3 seconds as an approximation), but if duralumin flared pewter makes you close the distance faster than 1/360th of a second, the attack would go faster than atium + tin could account for. Even if it was 1/120th of a second, you'd only see three quick images of the person going for you, giving the atium burner only a vague idea of what you're going to do.
I see what your saying here, I think. But, my point is that with atium speed is a nonfactor. If you can see an action before it happens and are given the ability to process the information at an inhuman rate, which atium allows, you move before the other person even knows what they were going to do. Take for example Vin's fight with Zane at the end of TWoA. Vin uses Zane's reactions to her own yet unformed attacks to trick him into a defensive posture for an attack that she, now knowing Zane had atium, never intended to do. The only reason she won the fight, in large part, was due to Zanes cockyness. He truly believed that he had all the advantages and thought that Vin did not stand a chance. Although, after writing this I'm going to have to go back and reread that scene to remember how exactly the end of that fight plays out.
A couple of points
. Vin could tell a person was burning atium by burning bronze. (She can pierce copper clouds)
. Duralumin doesn't burn insanely fast it only gives you a massive flare of whatever metal you burn with it thus burning the metal but leaving Duralumin behind for further use.
First off, it takes some extreme concentration on her part to pierce copper clouds and decipher which metal it is. I don't think she would be able to do that and defend herself against an attack. Second, I wrote that duralumin burns insanely fast and you are correct it does not the metal that flares does. However, my point still holds true that the metal needed for the above theory, pewter, would burn insanely fast due to the duralumin, even faster than atium
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I think it might be possible to overcome the Atium with Duralumin+Pewter if you can swallow enough Pewter to hold the enhanced flare for a couple of seconds. If we assume the Atiumshadows run 3 sec ahead of time, then certainly the first attack will fail, but due to the fact that the Duralumin/Pewter user is so much faster hell be able to launch the next attack much faster then the Atium user can avoid the first one. Therefore D/P closes in somehow, the 3 sec gap becomes smaller ( not in seeing the shadows but in the reaction of the Atium user). So after a couple of attacks D/P shouldve closed in and once he/she cant get one hit D/P enhanced hit its over anyway.
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Take for example Vin's fight with Zane at the end of TWoA. Vin uses Zane's reactions to her own yet unformed attacks to trick him into a defensive posture for an attack that she, now knowing Zane had atium, never intended to do. The only reason she won the fight, in large part, was due to Zanes cockyness. He truly believed that he had all the advantages and thought that Vin did not stand a chance. Although, after writing this I'm going to have to go back and reread that scene to remember how exactly the end of that fight plays out.
IIRC, Vin remains indecisive about what she will do up until the last second. At that time, Zane dodges in one direction (showing her what she would do in the next split-second) but she sees him dodge and instantly attacks in a different direction (because his dodge showed her what her next move was supposed to be, so she made a different move). His reaction to what she was going to do changed what she was going to do, so she created TWO images instead of just one; if he had NOT dodged in that direction, she would have attacked in that direction (thus, only one image, but her attack still would have landed because he wouldn't have dodged, but since he did dodge, it made two images and she still hit him because she didn't attack in the direction he was going to dodge).
It's odd how that worked out, but it DOES make sense if you work it around in your head enough times.
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It's amazing how Vin works all these things out, isn't it? It's almost as if she is being helped somehow...............
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lol lets stay on topic here darxbane. :) anyways i think that vin just figured out a way to 'see' atium shadows without burning atium. like when both mistborn are burning it theres a bunch of shadows because each is seeing what could happen which changes what they will do which changes what the other person will do and so on. vin just found a way to create the same effect of determining what the other user will do and thus changing what she would do without burning atium.
and anyway darxbane i don't think that we can attribute all of vin's advantages and cleverness to the well spirit. we have to give her more credit than that i think...
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You're right, I should post a new topic about Vin for that discussion. As for this topic, I suppose it is possible that if you made enough attacks in a fast enough succession, you might be able to overwhelm your opponent, Atium or not. It's pretty thin, though. I would imagine an Atium flare would just allow you to see things a little sooner, but it probably doesn't last long enough to be worth it.
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I think when you burn pewter and duralumin right after an attack you will corner the atium user, like mentioned in MB2
If we assume he/she can see 3 seconds into the future and is able to react (he/she knows what will happen in 3 seconds), there will be two shadows, since the future attack is incredibly fast and the 3 seconds reach to the time, when he has to react to the first image.
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It is also said that Atium increases your ability to react. Min is able to avoid over a dozen Hazekillers with increadible ease. I think the only reason Vin beat Zane was his overconfidence allowed an opening.
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I think the only reason Vin beat Zane was his overconfidence allowed an opening.
That or she's an allomantic prodigy. Maybe i just like the idea of giving Vin credit for her bad-ass-ness. But you could be right. Who's to say if she exploited a weakness in Zane or exploited a weakness of Atium?
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Why would Vin not be Badass for exploiting an enemy's weakness? Her plan was brilliant; she used his reaction to see her own potential strike. If he wasn't so certain he would win he may not have left himself so open. Power is a small part of being a great warrior. Intelligence, cunning, and even luck are also important. Her ability to think and reason under the strain of almost certain death is a characteristic that very few people possess. She didn't find a way around Atium, per se, she was simply able to take advantage of an opponent who felt invincible. It's actually a sort of side effect of Atium that even Vin admits she feels while burning it.
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good point but it still doesn't answer the question of whether its a weakness of atium or just of Zane's character. maybe just a combination of both. either way i don't see a scene in mb3 where Ham beats a mistborn burning atium. in my opinion he's dead.
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I agree, Ham has no chance unless he gets extremely lucky. As for the question, I think we are looking at it the wrong way. Unless a power makes you literally invincible, you can die if you are careless. Atium grants a fantastic, almost god-like ability to anticipate and react to attacks, but it is still only as powerful as the person who uses it. It was not Atium's "fault" that Zane lost. He could have waited longer to block her attacks, but instead he casually moved to intercept, giving Vin time to see her own move and change it mid-swing. He could also have simply killed her the moment she said no to him, instead of trying to make her suffer first. Zane's death is his own fault.
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Zane's death is his own fault.
i definately agree. but i think Vin still did find a big weakness in Atium, or rather in the way people use it against her. she found a way to duplicate her shadow and therefore gained the advantage. ham mentions that its best to surprise an atium burner. what better way then adding a second shadow when it's least expected. imo then, burning pewter and duralumin is just a waste of your pewter. i mean a thug like Ham could theoretically do the same thing that Vin did and without the advent of duralumin. so if someone else managed to figure out what Vin did, then a mistborn with Atium could be beaten by a regular misting. unless the mistborn knew of the weakness and began to be more careful when burning Atium aware that the single shadow may not be the only possibility...
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Zane did see two shadows. The second one appeared as he was dodging the first. I don't remember if he just chose wrong or was surprised to see two at the same time, but either way, he did still see what she was going to do. I still don't think this flaw is in Atium itself. What Vin does is not easy. It is quite hard to not think about what you are going to do next in a fight. Plus, had Zane survived, he would not be fooled by that trick again. A flaw is something you can repeatedly exploit. Vin will never fall for this trick because she is aware of it.
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i guess that makes it a quirk rather than an actual weakness. but its a quirk that nobody but vin and i guess TenSoon know about. so really i guess its about exploiting a burner's ignorance of the quirk rather than the person or the atium.
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Vin's so smart! She's aways coming up with little ideas like that. ;D
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Vin's so smart! She's aways coming up with little ideas like that. ;D
Agreed mate. :)
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Vin's so smart! She's aways coming up with little ideas like that. ;D
It's uncanny, even. Sounds familiar, too. Kwaan had similar things to say about Alendi's exploits.
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lol we're back to this question again. maybe you should make a new thread darxbane. :)
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I just did. Feel free to fire away at it. As for this thread. Is there anything that we missed? I think we've pretty much covered this topic. I see we are beginning to have the same discussions in different posts, which could get confusing. Should we request that this topic be closed?
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i think we should. lol i've noticed i've been arguing different points of hemallurgy in several threads at this point. :P
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Hemlurgy, Alendi, Vin, and the fifteenth metal, they seem to be working their way into multiple threads.