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Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Plasman on February 04, 2008, 05:49:55 AM
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Ok, first off this is my first post so hello everyone, and Mr. Sanderson/Brandon/EUOL/whatever us fans are supposed to call you, you are an awesome writer (my new favorite. please hurry up and publish more books :)
Based on what i have read online and the books, i've come up with this theory: Vin's unusual amount of power stems from the third magic system, hemalurgy, and her ear ring. We know from what EUOL has said that Inquisitors are created through the usage of hemalurgy, involving the deaths of several people. We also know that the Well Spirit has the ability to control people with spikes in their bodies, like Marsh and Zane, and create voices in their minds. Is any of this remind anyone of Vin's mother? She is described as mad and hearing voices, then she goes and kills Vin's sister and impales Vin's ear with the ear ring. My guess is that this too is an example of hemalurgy and is a main reason behind Vin's power.
Thoughts anyone?
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I hadn't thought of this, though it does make sense, in a kind of roundabout way. I'm not really sure that this is the truth, but it's certainly an interesting idea.
It does seem a bit odd that her mother heard voices, just like Zane did, and killed Vin's sister, and then turned around and gave her a gift.
I guess now I'm taking a page out of Sazed's book, and beginning to see proof of something because I'm looking for it.... But that's certainly an interesting coincidence, even if it turns out to be completely unrelated.
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I am not certain, since I am not EUOL, but I don't think that the similarities are a mere coincidence. I do know that EUOL has mentioned that we will learn more about Zane in the third book, so maybe that specific question will be one that is answered at the time.
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I've always had the impression that Vin's mom had more to do with this than just showing Vin's upbringing. I had thought that was rather obvious. And I had figured her insistence on piercing Vin's ear might be significant as well all though I hadn't thought of it in that precise context before, I guess I had just figured I'd wait to worry about that one till the end.
I get tired of worrying about minor details that I don't know are going to be rectified, I've read to much Jordan to do that anymore.
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I get tired of worrying about minor details that I don't know are going to be rectified, I've read to much Jordan to do that anymore.
Aint that the truth. ;D
Though I do see plausibility in this theory the more I think about it, of course I have also learned after reading Jordan so much that sometimes things are made obvious for the shear value of misleading. In my opinion all writers are Aes Sedai. Its all in that dodgy wording they use. Hmmm.. I should re-read stuff and look for those little nuances but honestly I am just to lazy.
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she's powerful cause she's really a Jedi. Brandon told me she was Luke's OTHER sister.
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Hmmm.. I should re-read stuff and look for those little nuances but honestly I am just to lazy.
And it just hurts the brain after a while. I honestly don't know how people spend so much time musing over things. Granted I do my fair share but I'm nothing like some of the hard core fanatics of HP and TWOT. I muse about it, come to a conclusion and move on. If I get into a discussion about it I'm more than happy to talk but I really have more books to focus on... er, oh yeah, and a family to manage, I forgot about them ;)
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You put together an interesting theory Plasman. One that I did not see for myself, to be honest. However, I believe that while hemalurgy may have something to do with it, there is more to it that that. Specifically the fact that she is the "Hero of Ages". Well not in the way that we originally thought but she was chosen by the Well to free it. Meaning that she is special for some other reason because as you stated Inquistors and Zane hear the voice and have the spikes but they were not the ones the Well chose. This leads me to believe that she is the one prophesized to save everyone. Thus, she has the enormous amount of power that would be required to do so......
I kind of ended on a paradox there. Does Vin have the power because she is the prophesized one or is she the prophesized one because she has the power to be the prophesized one??? Hmmm....interesting
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If you'd said it just once, I would have let it slide, but four times really bugs me. The word is "prophesied," not "prophesized." Past tense of "prophesy."
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Ookla,
I had a feeling that was wrong the whole time I was writing that. I even went so far as to write it into Microsoft Word and then ran spell check. Stupid program told me that there was nothing that needed to be corrected. Oh well you can still get what I'm trying to say. Thanks for the info. So sorry to irritate you so...
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If you'd said it just once, I would have let it slide, but four times really bugs me. The word is "prophesied," not "prophesized." Past tense of "prophesy."
lol... to funny. I often worry about saying the right words, feel free to correct me if I don't. ;)
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heh. How about using "too" instead of "to" in that last post of yours. ;)
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I even went so far as to write it into Microsoft Word and then ran spell check. Stupid program told me that there was nothing that needed to be corrected.
Curse Microsoft...
Um, back to your discussion on Vin.
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Interesting theory!
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heh. How about using "too" instead of "to" in that last post of yours. ;)
oh, you got me! But really I have to admit that's just laziness. ;) I don't like taking the time to think of which one I ought to use.
But now I'm self conscious.... ;)
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You should have just said your keyboard doesn't have a "oo" button, just an "o".
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^^ good one, I'm not so quick on the come backs though. Next time I'll use that one. ;)
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Just a thought, but I wonder if being pierced w/something (vin's earring, the inquisitor's spikes, etc) has anything to do with being able to draw power from the mist. It seems to react differently to Vin, Zane, and the inquisitors...maybe that's just happenstance, but maybe not.
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alright, so after re-reading the ending of MB1, i'd like to revise my theory.
I was reading the end where vin is fighting the lord ruler and during the fight there is a point where he is Pushing her around and he pushes her ear ring out of her ear. it is only after this that vin is able to draw on the mists, a feat which she has never repeated since. this pretty much invalidates my original theory since she was only able to perfom this action, the most powerful thing she's ever done without duralumin, when she was not wearing her ear ring.
so this leads me to my second theory. the ear ring is still an example of hemalurgy, only it is opposite of the inquisitors. it acts to somewhat restrain her power where the inquisitors power is amplified. this once again leaves the origins of her power a mystery, but i think i like this better because first, it doesn't conflict with anything from the book (i think), and second, it makes sense that if there is a real terris prophesy about a hero of ages, and vin is it, that the Well Spirit would try its best to limit her power enough such that she wasn't as much of a threat but that it could use her to set itself free.
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i like that idea. i read the final empire again and also noted that the ear ring was removed in the battle with the lord ruler. cant wait to find out more about hemalurgy and how it works.
Roll on October!!! :D
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I like the theroy alot, and mostly agree with it as being a very, very good plot twist if ever there comes one. The earring and mother sob story will come back by the end no matter what...
.. But for arguments sake, hows this. It was touched apon in the first book and again in the second book when Vin is talking to TenSoon about how to control Kandra. He say's somthing to the effect that her powers are so strong because of her none diluted blood line, which stemmed from the high prelen, who would have been breed for the position. That with durilum (spelled incorectly of course) made her able to push through the years, to back were allomancy was more pure. Unlike with Keslier who just got very lucky with his heritage, and through a couple of years of practice and dedication manifested his power through force of will and skill, not brute force. Because, while you may say Vin was more powerful, Keslier had the fienesse (Spelled wrong as well) that one could only dream of having.
Again, I think I like your theroy better. But the Idea that Vin has the power because she is been singled out doesn't sit well with me. I like the idea that others could be as strong as her, but are just as rare because of the delution in the blood lines.
ps. Elend will be the strongest of all if my theroy holds true, for the strongest allomanceirs would have been the ones created directly from the source (the Well) and that would make Elend one of those. As I said if my theroy holds true then he will be the most powerful Allomancer to walk The Final Empire.
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you know what i'm actually glad you brought that up. i think the fact that elend is now a mistborn has been largely overlooked by a lot of people, which is strange because it will undoubtedly have HUGE implications in the third book. people (myself included) seem to focus more on the well spirit, Zane, and Sazed and tend to forget about the world's newest allomancer.
I think this will be a very cool new addition to the MB series with Elend and Vin out there fighting together, and undoubtedly butting heads every once in the while, but here's a question. Even if your theory is right and Elend is the most powerful allomancer in the world, will he ever actually become a "fighter"? I know that Elend went through some big changes in the second book, but it's still hard for me to imagine him ever doing some of the things Vin does and being an allomancer doesn't mean you automatically learn how to fight well.
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I am curious to see how Vin trains El. Will it be Kel style, or she going to throw in her own personal touches. Plus it will be interesting to see this affects their personal responsibility, since Vin has been El's protector, and now El has the potential to protect himself.
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I just want to see Elends morale strugle on when/where to use his new found powers of emotion control. He is the one that is alway's talking about freedom and a person's right, but with the ability to control there emotions he will be put to the test of my all time favorite; Hypocricy.
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when i first read mb2 and the kandra is explaining to vin about how she shouldnt have been able to effect him with allomancy he explains that process of generations has diluted the bloodlines of allomancers so they no longer have the massive power they used to have.
now i think this was just how the kandra explained the loss of ability that allomancers could no longer control them anymore. my theory is that the steel ministry started to suppress which metals were available for allomancers to use i.e alluminium, electrum but especially Duralumin. that would explain why mistborn couldn affect the kandra anymore as they could no longer get the massive flares of metal that you get when a mistborn burns duralumin.
just my take on things :D
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Ok, I can't find it but some where some one brought up the fact that Elend might only have the mistborn powers for so long because the metal he swallowed is what's giving him the power. But we have seen fast burning metals, and slow burning metals, but there is a chance that there is a metal that is permanent. It's not that far out of the realm of possibility. Exspecially if that's what the author wants. :D.
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I don't think that Elend's power will be temporary. However, getting back to Vin's power; is it a stretch to believe that Vin's mother was a Hemalurgist? That would explain why she heard voices (like Zane). So you have a nobleman of relatively pure blood who has a child with someone with Hemalurgic powers. Then her mother kills Vin's sister to add Hemalurgic power to Vin's earring. Which, by the way, would explain why the mists were moving away from her at the end of WoA, and why she could only draw on the mists that one time she wasn't wearing it. I can just see the plot twists coming in the next book.
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Do we know much about hemalurgists right now? We know that's how the Steel Inquistors are created, but no real specifics, right?
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Right, but we can assume that the mists are pushed away by Hemalurgy, as they are repelled by the Inquisitors during the Vin's fight with the lord ruler. We can also guess that the voice Zane heard was the well spirit, which spoke to him through his spike, and is also controlling the Steel Inquisitors, which we get from Marsh's fight with Sazed. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe Vin's mother was hearing the same voice. This is just a theory, but I believe that Hemalurgy is going to be very key in the last book. I am really looking forward to the Hemalurgy explanations. I may post a theory about Hemalurgy soon.
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I actually had the idea that Hemalurgy was naturally supposed to be a Skaa power, judging by the Lord Ruler's treatment of them. It might be that Hemalurgy, like Allomancy and Feruchemy, is an inherited trait. So, it occurred to me that the whole "no Nobles may breed with Skaa" law was like the "no Feruchemists may retain manhood" law; a way to maintain control over the magic and make sure nobody except the Lord Ruler could imitate the feat of mixing all three powers.
If Vin is truly a Hemalurgist, that may explain her unnatural power. However, I get the feeling that Hemalurgy is a lot more complex than just a form of enhanced Allomancy. If it's truly a "third magic system" parallel to Allomancy and Feruchemy, then Hemalurgy probably has its own uses of the Metals -- and it has something to do with blood. (obviously, since Hemoglobin is a form of iron in the blood). An interesting thing about Hemoglobin, though, is that it has a molecular structure that negates the typical ferromagnetic properties of iron. To put that in plain "English", blood-iron is one of the few forms of iron that cannot be magnetized.
...And THAT'S why Hemalurgy would explain Vin's power over the Lord Ruler. Hemalurgy incorporates blood, and possibly involves the ability to transform Hemoglobin into something controllable (Ironpulling and Steelpushing most likely work in a magnetic fashion). Thus, it doesn't matter whether the Lord Ruler's all-powerful rings are embedded in his skin if Vin is able to combine Allomancy and Hemalurgy. She just has to take that earring out...
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I do like the blood reference, Hemoglobin is most likely what the inquisitors use to see living things. However I don't believe that people are born as Hemalurgists, but rather made. It does take some type of human sacrifice in order to empower the metals that are placed in the body, so I think it is more than just blood that is needed. Marsh said in book one that it takes several sacrifices to make one inquisitor ( I am guessing one for each spike). It is also interesting that each spike is made up of a different metal. If Vin's earring is made of bronze (or whatever metal Seekers use), then that might explain why she can pierce copper clouds; she could use both magics together. I wonder what Zane's spike was made of, and who put it there? This may be the first time in my life I am looking forward to autumn.
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right, i forgot about that. that each of the spikes is a different metal. but i doubt that her bronze earring has to do with copperclouds. as has been said before, these 3 magic systems are similar but they maintain their differences. i think it would be a bit too convienient if bronze has to do with copperclouds in hemalurgy.
with regards to the hemoglobin thing, i think it could have to do with hemalurgy, but i doubt that brandon would go that into the science that much. we are talking about a very scientifically suppressed society here.
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That is true, but Hemallurgy and Allomancy could be more similar to each other than to Feruchemy. Inquisitors have the exact same powers as Mistborn, and I feel it has to be due to the metals implanted within them. Why else would each spike be made of a different metal? I suppose it could just be a way to enhance and/or allow the ability to burn different metals (most, if not all, Inquisitors were Mistings before being converted). As for Hemoglobin, I used that word because that is what we know it to be (and because Cosmic_AC reminded me about it in his previous post). The Inquisitors would just know there is a metal in all humans and animals which allows the Inq's to "See" them.
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i think vin being a hemallurgist is a pretty strong point. the fact that the well spirit (or whatever it is) is able to "speak" to people with a spike in them is too strong to overlook. i'm wondering if maybe the voice of Reen in Vin's head is really the well spirit.
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Interesting idea, Shost. At the very least, her ability to "feel" the Well pulsing, even when she is not burning bronze, supports this theory. I would also not be the least bit surprised if she was "helped" with some of her great discoveries, such as the way she beats Atium.
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This talk of Hemalurgy is fascinating. We gotta get this theory down so we can unlock yet another part of MB3. The Hemaglobin thing is brilliant, and I think in MB1 when you get Kar's perspective for a short time in Chapter 38 before Vin enters, they see by seeing the tiny little portions of metal in people, so this Hemaglobin thing has definite merit.
But, getting back to the topic at hand. If the earring provides Hemalurgic powers, then we are missing something very important. Vin was able to channel the mists AFTER she lost the earring. Perhaps, as the Steel Inquisitors push the mists away, the mists have wanted to come inside Vin the entire time, but was just repelled because of her Hemalurgic earring.
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yes. this fact was actually talked about earlier in this thread.
with regards to the well spirit influencing Vin as it does others, it's possible, but i'm not so sure. Reen's voice was really predominant in the first book, but in the second, when the Well seems to be getting stronger, it is virtually non-existant. This voice could still be the Well, there would just have to be an explanation for why she hasn't been hearing it lately.
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thats a good point plasman but i could just be possible that the well spirit isn't talking. but keep in mind this is just a theory. like i'm wondering if Vin has to have her earring (her 'spike' if you will) in her ear to hear the well spirit. if she does then i think that Reen is just Vin's subconcious because it seems to me that she was hearing Reens voice at the beginning of mb1 while she was in Camon's lair and before she had gone to fetch the earring out of her room.
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I was rereading the log book entries in book one, and something jumped out at me. In one of the entreis Alendi states that Rashek think that "I wear the piercing of the hero unjustly" Alendi has peircings that mark him as a hero, vin's mother stabs an earing into her ear and calls her a queen, coincidence??
Also in the log book, Alendi sees a lake that has a metalic sheen, and when Fedik, his friend goes to drink form it, the mist spirit attacks him, could this be where the metal that makes allomancers comes from? Just my two cents.
Sorry if I spelled coincidence wrong.
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That is an awesome find! That's why Alendi can "feel" the well's pulsing! More evidence of Hemalurgy's role in this book. We need to add this to the Hemalurgy thread. :D
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=O!
Spectacular... That can have some very interesting ramifications. If Ruin can "edit" the Terris prophecies, he perhaps could manipulate them to state that the Hero needed piercings.
So Ruin could manipulate Alendi himself. I need to take another look at those logbook entries...
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I wasn't sure if Alendi was being affected by Ruin, however, perhaps the earings have something to do with power. From what we know Alend didn't have allomancy, but Kwaan thought even a feruchemist like Rashek would have trouble defeating him. He said he was hoping for a miracle.
(Sorry about that typo about Alendi having Allomancy, it didn't make much sense, it's fixed now.)
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perhaps it was a known fact that Alendi was some kind of hemallurgist. as far as we know it wasn't until after Rashek's Ascension that allomancy first appeared. so it seems unlikely that Alendi was an allomancer. and he was ignorant of feruchemy before the packmen like Rashek. which seems to leave only hemallurgy if we were to assume that he has some sort of magic to be able to rival Rashek in a battle.
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Alendi had some kind of hemalurgic piercing! that is awesome. don't assume that they were just earrings however. for all we know Alendi could have been the first steel inquisitor, so to speak (except without allomancy). maybe that is where the lord ruler got the idea.
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I don't think he was an inquisitor, for one thing, he describes things too much to have had eye spikes, and from what we know about the conventical, Inquisitors aren't much into aesthetics, but Alendi often describes the terrain. It's true the piercings could have something to do with hemalurgy, but I think his piercings were more like Vin's than the spikes of the inquisitors. And from what we know of the diary, he mentioned nothing about hearing voices, so it seems unlikely Ruin was influencing him directly.
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I agree with Coma on this one. We don't know where the piercings were, but they were probably small amounts of metal, as they appeared to be more ritualistic than anything else.
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Also, from what we've seen, all Hemalurgists are also Allomancers, or have the abilities of one, and Allomancy didn't come until after. I assume that hemalurgy emerged around the same time as well. I'm sure the piercings have some significance, and it might have something to do with hemalurgy, but I don't think it is in the sense we know it as.
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ok, maybe inquisitor was the wrong word. i agree that alendi probably didn't have eye spikes, but that doesn't mean he wasn't like zane and had spikes somewhere else. and just because Ruin wasn't directly influencing him doesn't mean he didn't use hemalurgy. he did hear the poundings of the well like vin did, and he didn't have allomancy to use bronze to do that. and i think it has been accepted that vin's earring is hemalurgic, but she doesn't hear voices, well, not anymore. the voice of reen is almost nonexistant in WoA.
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and since Kwann was hoping for a miracle when sending Rashek to mislead or otherwise kill Alendi i think its safe to assume he had some kind of power. i mean why would a feruchemist have any problems with a regular guy or even several regular men. connect that with Alendi's ritual piercings of the Hero and i think its safe to assume he's a hemallurgist. those two pieces of information coming from the same source hardly seems like a coincidence.
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All excellent points, people. What if there was only Hemallurgy and Feruchemy? Alendi was Khlennium, who oppressed the Terris people. How could they oppress people with Feruchemical powers without a power of their own?
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my point exactly. although i have to wonder what kind of power is granted to a hemallurgist by himself. i mean the only ones we have seen are inqs and probably vin and then zane. they were all also allomancers mainly. so what kind of power would they have without allomancy i wonder?
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You guys are forgetting something though, the piercing Alendi has aren't a Khlennium tradition, they're Terris. The Terris World Bringers decided he was the Hero, and then gave him the piercings to mark him. That's why Rashek thinks he wears the piercings unjustly, he thinks a Terrisman should be wearing them, and why would Rashek think a Terris person should wear Khlennium jewelery when he hate Khlennium. I agree that the piercings (both Alendi's and Vin's) probably help them hear the well of ascension, and have something to do with the well spirit. For all I know they could be hemalurgy. But we don't know for sure. I don't think Alendi had inquisitor of any kind, I think his piercings were external because they marked him as the hero. I also agree that he must have had some kind of power, to be competent enough for Kwaan to be worried, but I'm not sure it's Hemalurgy.
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yes but we know from Vin that a hemallurgic piercing doesn't have to be internal like the inquisitors. they can be something decorative and removable like an earring. so the piercings can be distinctive while still being hemallurgic. and they can also be something seperate from any other culture. they probably weren't Terris piercings or Khlennium piercings. they would likely be seperate from any culture in order to make them even more distinct.
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Hmmm, I know that Kwaan said that Alendi survived assassins and a bunch of other things. It's not too unlikely that he had some special ability of his own.
Of course, that would mean that Hemalurgy existed before the Ascension. That could have profound ramifications all around.
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Agreed. He seemed to be pretty badass. Two points:
Shost, one thing we do know about Inq's is that few, if any, were Mistborn before being changed. The process of Hemallurgy gave them Mistborn level abilities, and even enhanced healing and metal "seeing" abilities. I bet it is even possible that some Inq's may not have even been Mistings beforehand. My second point is that the Worldbringers were convinced by Kwaan that Alendi was the Hero. It was also Kwaan who realized how perfectly he fit the prophecy; he was the first to realize that something was wrong, that his people were being manipulated to a very dangerous end. Rashek could just have been jealous that an outsider had yet another feature that made him the Hero, especially when we now know that Rashek was told by Kwaan that they were all wrong about him. He may even have believed that the Khlennium were responsible for manipulating the Terris into believing Alendi was the hero. I just realized that my perspective of Rashek (pre-Lord Ruler) may have changed a little bit. I still think he is bad, but his anger may have been more than just petty jealousy and bigotry.
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I think that Rashek's going to be the person who writes the epigraphs in MB3, just for that reason.
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i agree with all but one point darxbane. i don't think it was the process of hemallurgy that gave them the powers of a mistborn. i think its the metal that elend ate that did it. although where they got so much of it when the swelled their ranks at the conventicle is beyond me.
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Do we know they swelled their ranks??? I know it's hinted at, but I thought it was just a thought on Sazed's part. He also puts it out of his mind after, however this could be true.
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i think its likely considering that about half their numbers were killed by marsh at the end of mb1. i figure they would want more and they don't have to worry about them being loyal to the lord ruler anymore so they could just take a bunch of warriors and sacrifice a bunch of people and presto...a small army of inqs.
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But then why, like Sazed said, wouldn't they use the slaves for inquisitors instead of killing them all. I know the blood sacrifice thing, but certainly they wouldn't need al of them, I'm guessing they'd need one secrifice for each spike.
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Who says they wouldn't need all of the captives? We don't know how many Inquisitors they may have created—nor how many sacrifices it takes to create one. If it's one captive per spike, as you suggest, then that's eight per Inquisitor (I think).
Perhaps they promoted the loyal Obligators among them.
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Perhaps, it's true.