Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Bookstore Guy on November 05, 2007, 07:42:44 PM
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What's this rumor Im hearing about a new MB1? Are they gonna fix the crap-tastic cover? Or do the thing where they release the paperback again at a discounted price right before #3? Or did the original PB include that deleated scene where Kel gets abducted by aliens and they want to take it out?
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Yeah, what he said.
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ooh! I love rumors. Especially if they involve doing away with the "crap-tastic cover" for the MB1 paperback. I recently bought a copy of the PB as part of a "scare" package for a friend this October. Besides circling my name in the acknowledgments page (hehe), I also couldn't help but urge my friend should to ignore, if at all possible, the PB cover and take a look at the HB cover art online. So you can see why I would be most excited to have the original art on the PB to buy for some other friends o' mine. :D
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Delaying a hardback slot in favor of a paperback slot doesn't sound very likely to me.
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I thought this had been announced. I'm not sure on the details, you'll have to wait for Brandon to give you those, but yes, Tor will be re-releasing MB1 paperback with a (hopefully) non-craptastic cover. I don't believe the artist has been decided yet, but it's *not* the original MB artist.
And Peter, I don't believe this is pre-empting a hardback slot.
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Ah. I only said that because Brandon wrote that Mistborn 3 would probably be delayed because of the MB1 re-release.
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Okay, let's set the rumors to rest. Here's what's going on.
Moshe went to Tom, CEO of Tor, and said "Our Mistborn 1 paperback sales are not so great. We think it's due to the cover hitting the wrong audience. As much as we love the Jon Foster hardcovers, we didn't much care for this cover. Through no fault of the artist or the art director, we simply ended up shooting ourselves in the foot with this book. Can we do something about it?"
Tom agreed (because he's awesome) and gave us two options to consider. None of this is set, but Tor is considering it.
Option one: Release a new Trade Paperback of Mistborn: The Final Empire around the time that Mistborn 3 is released.
Option two: Release a cheaper, $4.99 paperback of Mistborn 1 around the time that Mistborn 3 comes out, with a coupon in the back for some money off of Mistborn 3 in hardcover.
Both options would include a new cover. Both options would require pushing Mistborn 3 back by a month or two. July is looking likely right now.
Discuss.
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Are we discussing?
If I was trying to sell a book I don't think I'd like selling it for $4.99 copy PLUS a coupon for money off my other book. (seems like I'd get less money to me, but that's just me) The question is which option is more likely to get sales?
If I were a buyer I would be thinking two things, 1) hmm, a book for $4.99 that's not a bad price and if I like it I can buy this other one for cheaper too, but 2) I wonder why it's so cheap, is it such a bad book that they're just trying to get ANY money out of it.
That's what I would think, that's what I usually DO think when I see a book for cheap (and I don't know the author). But I am also an avid reader and will likely overcome my reticence for the simple reason it is a book and I can justify $5 in my budget any day.
Hmm, I'm wondering if that helped or if I just talked in a circle.
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Okay, so I'm a HUGE Jon Foster fan, but I must admit that the Mistborn paperback wasn't that great...okay bad*cough*, so I think it would be cool to see a new cover.
Truthfully, I think the $4.99 is a good deal. I don't see cheap versions in the bookstore and wonder why their cheap, because most of the ones I've seen have been really popular and good books (A game of thrones, Mister monday). And I'm usually more inclined to buy a book if it's cheap, if only for the fact that it's, well, cheap. As long as the description interests me, that is.
Usually I only wonder about it's quality when the entire stock is sitting on the discount shelf.
Oh, by the way, I'm glad it's just a reprinting. I recently heard they were going to sell a new version of the first book in the dark tower series because King wanted to change it so it fit the end of the series. And I was thinking, "Oh no! Not Brandon, too!"
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Man, I love when both the options I suggest turn out to be pretty accurate! The 4.99 price is done pretty often, and its a great tool in the business to generate hard-back sales. This has happened with Sara Douglas, Martin, Keyes, Farland, Modesitt, Goodkind (gasp! I said the name of He-who-is-not-to-be named!), etc... you get the picture. While a small minority of book buyers might wonder why the book is being sold cheaper and wonder at the quality, most dont think that. On the covers of these books is a small printing stating that a new book is being released, so buy both to save moolah. The fact is, I think authors would like this idea more because it causes more HB sales which drives their personal profit higher. Giddyup.
Now, with regards to the Trade vs. MMPB, I personally feel that releasing a Trade PB first with a new cover would cause even more confusion. Then you would have 3 versions of the book all different sizes, all different covers. The safest thing to do, in my opinion, is follow the Martin process and release the first book as a MM at the 4.99 price and completely do away with the crap-tastic cover (i love that people are using that word liberally here!). The key afterwards is to keep the future paperbacks in a consistant mold with the new covered MB1. There are no redos after this redo.
My idea for a new cover would be something along the lines of the Prince of Nothing series by R Scott Bakker. The hard backs are amazing. Something along those lines with a visual ans colored representation of the mists would be nice. You could even use a simialr color scheme to match each PB with its corresponding HB. Go with simple on the PBs. Less is more.
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Usually I only wonder about it's quality when the entire stock is sitting on the discount shelf.
Yes, I kind of had that image in my head... stacks of Mistborn all at $4.99. hmm...
It might be noted that I haven't even seen the PB's, as I have had little opportunity to enter a bookstore lately -sigh-. No most of my books come from Library book sales and SFBC, of late. The closest major book retailer is 30 minutes from me.
(I think my husband had that in mind when he moved us here ;) )
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Once again, when you see the actual PB at the price of 4.99, it says on the cover that it (the PB) is a limited printing at that proce to take advantage of the forthcoming release of the newest book in the series. It has a special label on it designating that it is a special release. In the bookstore business it is an easy way to bookst your sales figues. People are buying 2 books for a slightly higher price than the HB in the store, and then they get a discount rendering the PB free later. It is also a great way to get people hooked on new series. When you actually look at the book, you dont think "Holy Crap Batman! this book is cheaper so the author must not be as good!" You see that a new book is being released and that this is a limited printed at a cheaper price, and therfore a good deal. Most people, from my sales experience (and actually asking people, "why are you buying this book at this price NOW?") take this as an opportunity to try new series, get a better cover of their fav. books (see George R R Martin), or get a deal on the newest book of the series they already like (ie Farland, Douglas, Martin, etc...). This marketing/pricing strategy is very well done, and usually benefits everyone - author, buyer, and publisher - in the long run (especially if the new cover is snazzy).
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I'm probably the outlier here, but I wouldn't buy a $4.99 book because it's basically stealing. I can't imagine that after production costs, shipping and then the retail store's part, the book has almost no money left over to pay the author, artist, editor, etc. Also, for something that is going to take hours to read, that just seems like too little.
Doesn't a book at that price really depend on the venue it's sold at? Like I could see a cheap book selling really well at a super market, but with fantasy reader's being fairly picky, wouldn't they be more willing to chip out a few more bucks and expect to because they would be in a book store?
How do online retailers affect that? I know with a Barnes and Noble card I can get a paperback Elantris for just over $7. Would 2 bucks off that really get more sales?
Also, with the cover, are there any statistics for fantasy readers on what causes them to buy books? I know with myself and most my friends, it's almost always a recommendation from a friend (or amazon) that first finds me to the book, and then the reviews (online or from my buddies) that convince me to buy/read it. I've never been shopping for a book on Amazon and seen a cover and decided on that I wasn't going to get the book. It's always the reviews that decide that. Is there really a big enough group that just wanders the shelves looking at covers and reading backs on the ones that look interesting? If so, does that vary much with genre? Are fantasy readers more or less likely to do that?
So yea, those are just my $0.02. I am by no means an expert, in fact, I haven't even really been 'reading' books for very long. It just seems to me, with the internet as big as it is and most fantasy readers having interests that put them in (real life or online) contact with other fantasy readers, that those types of things would have less impact on sales in modern times.
However, on a related but unrelated note on the opposite side of the spectrum. If you were going to release some kind of set with the trilogy, or a collectors edition type thing, I would be all over that.
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Well I guess I didn't remember as many details as I thought I did.
Anyway, if Tor is willing to release a $4.99 version with a coupon for the new HB, that would be ideal, I think. At this point in Brandon's career, it's far more beneficial to get as many people as possible to buy his stuff, regardless of what it costs. Money is a lot easier to come by when you're well-known.
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Exxxxxactly. Since I was often referred to as the "Dealer/Pusher" of books, think of the 4.99 book as the gateway drug! It's whole point is to entice you to buy not only the first, and then the most recent book in a series, but also everything in between AND the author's OTHER books/series. Sure, for a few months these PBs are being sold at a slight loss or break-even - this happens in several industries all over. But how much more will you make if you get the loyalty factor involved? I myself have a whole stack of books that were released at the 2.99-4.99 price at home - and I bought these using my 33% waldens discount (or 40% if it was the right time of year). Every dollar I same myself is a dollar I can use to buy another book later. That's the bookstore-sales mentality.
Now, with regards to covers = sales...heck yeah they help!!!! Cover artists get Hugo Awards too!!! Why? Because a great cover contributes directly to sales. Whether it's the consistancy of art across a series, or the shear quality of the art. How do you think Elantris sold copies? Apart from cool guys who had book stores like me (hehehe), that beautiful cover drew tons of people. People in general (i know, a blanket statement - there are alwayse exceptions) always have judged books by the cover. Thats why there are good artisits (see Brandon'd HB books), and thats why there are cover quotes (see Naomi Novik). I made a point of asking people what interested them in the book they were buying. Now, assuming I hadnt pimped a bok to them, it was almost always because the cover grabbed them FIRST, and then the premise sounded good. Bookstores take books with great covers and face them out so browsers pick them up. They do studies on this. They run tests on these things.
Dont get me wrong, recommendations go a LONG way. But, something has to grab people to start that chain of recommendations moving.
As for B&N's card - someone spent $25 to get you that card. Until you've spent $250 on books, youve lost money on that deal. Thats why Borders/Waldens did away with the card.
As for books being sold better at different locations, a large majority of people go to CostCo/Sams/EvilMart first to get a deal. Loyal buyers go to and actual book store. Once again, a dollar saved is a dollar to spend on another book later. Also, unless a seller at a bookstore makes a good relationship with a customer, that customer usually has zero problems pulling up their anchor and going somewhere else. For example, many of my customers stopped shopping at my store after I left.
Lastly, people buy more books in bookstores when they are on sale, or have a coupon. Full-price sucks. Even a 10-15% discount will often convince a person to buy a more expensive book, or more books.
Ok, Im done for now.
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As for B&N's card - someone spent $25 to get you that card. Until you've spent $250 on books, youve lost money on that deal. Thats why Borders/Waldens did away with the card.
Yea, the only reason I picked it up is because I got it when Brandon Came out here for a signing a few weeks ago, and I had a stack of books that set me back just around $200. I think after the calculations I'll just need to buy 1-2 more books there for it to pay for itself.
Thanks for the post, it's nice to have some insight from someone who obviously knows the business.
Because the cover does kind of have that impact, is that why (from what I understand) the cover choice is basically made 100% by the publisher without the author having much say?
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On that topic, I have very little info. I'll defer to the mighty EUOL.
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I would chime in and say publishers have more experence then authors when it comes to this.
They spend the money and time on market research, both of which authors really don't have.
Ya sure they struck out with MB1 paperback but how many homeruns have they hit in comparison?
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Sprig's got it.
The art directors at a company like Tor are, well, art directors. They generally have schooling in both art and marketing--which means they know how to match a book to an artist and get that book to the audience.
Experience has shown that they hit far more often than authors trying the same thing might. That doesn't mean they don't make mistakes--Tor publishes hundreds of titles a year. A given art director may be in charge of finding art for a hundred different books for a given year, and will need to make them all look distinctive, target the right audience, and present the book accurately.
So, once in a while you end up with something like this--where the cover misfires. But, the excellent covers for the hardcover Mistborn books (done by the same artist) proves that Jon Foster was a good choice. This one cover just didn't work, and so that's why we're trying something new.
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In regard to the earlier question about online sales, yes, I think that knocking a book from $7 to $5 has a huge effect on online sales--possibly even more than on offline sales. Consider that most online booksellers offer free shipping once you hit a given threshold of items or total price. A $5 book that puts you just over that threshold is essentially free, since you'd be paying about that much in shipping anyway. Cheap little books like that always sell great online because many people go scrounging through the catalog for "free" books to top off their order.
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ooh, I agree... When I'm online buying books from... well, as I already said, the only place I EVER get to buy books anymore, SFBC I go for the deals... course they're all deals there.
I like the idea of a collector's edition or something of the like, this isn't exactly the same but we waited until the LOTR extended editions came out in a set before we bought them.
I also would add, and maybe this is just me, but I'm OCD about having a series in the same cover. Like I have one of the Bartimeaus trilogy in hardback and one in soft and it drives me nuts! *blushing* I don't usually buy a book in SB if I have another in HB... BUT I have also been known to buy a book cheap in SB and if I liked it go back and buy it again in HB (another reason why my husband tries to keep me as far away from bookstores as possible ;))
Maybe I'm just agreeing with everyone, maybe there is no real rhyme or reason to why I buy books... I'm just an addict.
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I'm a total sucker for covers, though I usually indulge this at the library and not the bookstore (I'm too cheap to buy books if I don't know the author). This is why I read City of Bones by Martha Wells---I thought the cover was just so beautiful. Now I own I picked up Wildwood Dancing by Juliet Marillier for the same reason. It had a Kinoko Craft cover and the only other person I had seen with Craft covers was Patricia McKillip, who I love. I now own five books by each of these authors, but I never would have bought them if I hadn't liked that initial cover.
It's what makes me grumpy about Terry Pratchett. His British editions have wonderful covers but his American editions have blah covers. I want the British covers, but I'm not willing to spend the money to order them from England. Why can't the American editions have good covers too?
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My very favorite classic SF book—for years I just called it my favorite book, period—is Slan. I have yet to buy a copy, though, because all the covers for it I have ever seen just plain suck.
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If they do offer the cheaper book I hope they don't print the cheap price on the cover. I bought a paperback like that once and I hated the fact that $4.99 was printed in big letter on the top corner of the book. They also printed a line about a new book coming out by the same author (kind of like what you're going through). I didn't like it because half the cover hwas covered but by all the writing and I couldn't see the beautiful art work beneath it. A couple of years later the same book came out (same cover) at full price without all that writing and I bought it again. I donated the other book to DI. I wouldn't have minded if they put a sticker on the cover that I could take off but all that "special" pricing and writing was too much.
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Does anyone want to stick a picture of the cover on here so I can see it? You've got me curious now.
I don't much care for some of the Wheel of Time covers. And I will say that I bought the book 'Gideon, the cutpurse.' which was a mildly good book (course it's also considered young adult) but the cover is awesome! IMO so I keep it in my bookshelf instead of somewhere hidden.
One of the reasons I didn't pick up a fantasy book, or SF (which I'm still working myself up to) is cause the covers are so odd. I saw Elantris in my catalog ;) and was slightly interested but didn't buy it. I kept coming back to it though cause the cover looked so good, and it sounded good, but I wasn't into reading new authors at that point cause I'd gotten burned a couple of times. So I debated, and finally my sister talked me into it. I'm really glad that cover was so nice.
So can I change my vote? I think if it had been me wondering whether to buy Elantris and I saw it for $4.99, I probably would have gone for it.
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The artist they're talking to about this:
http://www.christianmcgrath.com/mainpages/pages/page2.html
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Bleh.
The guy draws/paints well but all those peices are so boring. I hate book covers that are just people walking, standing or doing nothing dramatic. The MB1 paperback cover is better then any of that stuff.
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Wow, I have to agree with Sprig. The guy has great craftsmanship, but his pictures are not very dynamic. The only picture I really cared for was the one with the unicorn.
I really want my fantasy book covers to look like they belong to a fantasy book not a fashion magazine.
Still, it's a step up from the first PB cover.
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I actually like them. Although they would be a step away from what the HB covers. I'd say if you were gonna switch to that artist for the PB then you should stay with him for the PB's so that they go together... (did that just sound really girly... sorry)
I would be curious to see how he depicted Vin before I gave a solid opinion. Although all those girls look about the same don't they?
Hey they're better than the Wheel of Time covers! That last books cover was terrible, I had to read the book to figure out who was depicted on the front.
(BTW, I think my NaNoWriMo is breaking my brain, this post took me way to long to articulate)
edited for an annoying grammar mistake: see what I mean, I'm malfunctioning!
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Interesting. I loved how Foster depicted Vin on the hardback covers - exactly how I pictured her from the text. If this new guy makes her look like Jennifer Garner like all the chicks do in the sample paintings linked above, that would be very disappointing.
I'm not sure how the MB1 PB cover ever got approved. I mean, didn't anybody at Tor actually see it before it went out? Couldn't they have asked Foster to touch it up?
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I actually read a book because it had a cover by this artist, but I've only seen his covers on urban fantasy. I'm interested to see what he'll do with MB1.
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I like most of this guy's covers. They fit the moods and the context of the books really well. In fact, for a project Rob (Errent on the forums) and I are working on, we both agreed that this artist would be great for it. His covers help the books sell well - the numbers for Kat Richardson and Jim Butcher are very good. A lot of his stuff - especially the Dresden stuff - has a hazy quality to it that I feel would lend well to a piece depicting a world covered in Mist. Im interested to see a rough sketch.
On a side note, does doing something like this hurt relations with the original cover artist? Ive always wondered about that.
As far as putting the price on the cover, of course they will. How are people going to notice the sale price if it isnt printed? It will most likely have a red bar across the top of the cover and on a large section of the spine saying "LOOK AT ME!!! IM ON SALE!!!"
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I'm with Not Bookstore Guy Anymore on this one. This artist has a track record of making really nice covers that fit the urban fantasy/dark fantasy market. If anything, having a cover done by him will bring in more readers from these markets who might not have picked up the book otherwise. I'm excited to see what he comes up with for Mistborn, since I loved the covers of the Greywalker series.
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Anytime someone can publicly say he's with CtrlZed and Not Bookstore Guy Anymore, that person should seize that chance. I like this artist, and I think a really cool cover could come from this. But if I were the original artist, I'd be kinda steamed.
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I couldnt resist blogging (http://fantasybookreviewer.blogspot.com/2007/11/cover-art-affecting-book-sales.html) on this topic this morning after seeing this thread over the weekend. It seems like there has been a LOT of discussions on the forums and blogs (the idea that some fantasy covers can affect book sales).
I know if i hadnt already heard all the good things about Elantris and Mistborn, I wouldn't have given a thought to buying Mistborn (but i do own all 3 of his books in HC, due to the positive reviews around the net..now I just need to start reading them!). This isnt to say the artist isnt talented..it simply wasnt an appealing cover to me. I think this happens way too often in fantasy books. I have always wondered why there isnt some sort of readers opinion panel formed by the book companies to get opinions on proposed covers (seeing that other media outlets use feedback to determine the final product..movies, tv shows, etc).