Timewaster's Guide Archive
Games => Role-Playing Games => Topic started by: Eagle Prince on August 16, 2007, 06:18:45 AM
-
If you go to the dnd website, there is a 17-hour countdown for "4Dventure". An anouncement for 4th edition DnD maybe? Guess we'll find out soon...
-
wow.
After talking with SE I don't think it's 4ed, I think it's either a 4th setting or announcing their online magaizine features.
-
Looks like it's official http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11123.html
-
I thought it would be longer until the 4e PHB came out, but its only like 9 months.
-
That article does make it sound like the game will be moving in the same direction as the Star Wars Saga Edition, much like we've suspected. Unless we get a lot of review products, though, I can't see my gaming group making the switch from 3.5--we already have a zillion books for 3.5, and I can't think of any compelling reason (short of a new setting that's totally awesome) to rebuy a bunch of books we already own.
-
I suspect the following changes will be adopted from saga:
1) Class ability tress-- they're allready popular from D20 modern and are much needed in D&D
2) Changes in skills -- while I like the saga skill system I still prefer the normal D20 method but I think they'll go with this new method
3) AC removed -- I think they'll go for how Saga does AC via saving throws instead
What I'm not sure about, but they might do is make some spells return after an encounter like force powers and possibly give other classes this feature, so the fighter can get a really powerfull attack but it's once per enounter and not day.
The other concern I have is I don't like high level D&D, it's not balenced well and it requires you to be very narrowly focused to be of any use in a game and with extending the "level cap" to 30 I hope this issue gets resolved because I just don't enjoy 3.x after level around level 12 because the system changes to a completly different balance level that negates a lot of class builds. An example is how usless my bard is now at level 17 compaired to 7 levels ago when I could actually do things outside of holdmonster and bardic music, every time I've gotten to the teens in level I've noticed my caracters can do less and less effectivly and that sucks.
-
I guess I've got 9 months left to play 3.5
I'm assuming that RPGA won't switch to 4th until 2009 at the earliest.
-
Well you could always just wait for 4.5, that will give you a few extra years of 3.5
I think you are pretty close Spriggan. I'm not sure if everything is going to per encounter; I think there will be a lot of per encounter stuff, but will still need to rest up to compeletely regain all spells and abilities.
I have no idea about RPGA, but a little after the DnD page changed for the anouncement (which is only about 10 minutes away now), they accidently had the messageboards for 4e opened. There was a bunch of pre-started threads to post in, and I think there was one about living campaigns. So I guess we will have at least an idea of what is going on with RPGA.
-
lol... when the countdown hit zero, there was a link, which then reloaded the counter with 11 more minutes, then the new webpage came up for a second, then crashed. But here is a link to the 4e boards, they are lagging but work.
http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=686
-
The next big question I have is will 4.0 have an OGL? I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't and instead wizard's licnesed the right to publish for it.
-
Man, their website is in trouble. You'd think they'd buff up their servers a little before an announcement like this.
-
Can I just say how glad I am that this has finally been announced? Talking with you guys and not being able to ever say anything has just been excruciating.
Not that I know anything. Our group was going to playtest some 4e stuff, but we went on summer hiatus before we could. We might do some come fall when we start playing again, but for the most part I don't really pay attention to the game side of things.
So I can't answer any of the questions on this board so far, but I do know that they were intending to have a FAQ somewhere to answer any questions people might have. I have no idea where that would be, but there are people on the Wizards boards who would, I imagine.
-
I was going to ask you if you knew anything about it; I guess you don't know any more than we do, you just knew it earlier.
-
Yeah, well, you know how attuned I am to the game world. I've been in meetings where this stuff was discussed ad nauseum, but most of it went over my head, and the rest I tuned out because I had my own deadlines to meet. Besides, they'll have designated "question-answerers" on the Wizards boards once GenCon is over, I think.
-
That makes sense. I know all our answers won't be on the FAQ but I'm sure it will cover a lot.
-
This showed up in my email regarding the RPGA Living campaigns. It's been going around several forums.
A Year of Change: The RPGA in 2008
As most of you reading this know, Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition was
announced at Gen Con Indy on this past Thursday evening. This means
great things for the game, and with that, big changes for the RPGA
and its programs. Ever since "The Announcement" , one of the hot
topics both at the convention and online has been "What does this
mean for the future?"
At our members' meeting this evening, Ian and I talked to the
assembled players, judges, and staff about the RPGA's future. Even
though many of you can't be with us, we felt it necessary to send out
the "official word" to you as soon as the meeting was concluded, so
you could have all the information in one place. Here we go!
Campaigns Concluding
Living Greyhawk has been the face of organized play for the 3rd
Edition D&D game. Tremendously successful, thousands participate
worldwide in the biggest shared-world D&D game anywhere. LG has been
around since the beginning of 3rd Edition, and it will last to the
end of the 3rd Edition product line. Starting with a two-round
special at D&D Experience 2008 (February 28 – March 2), the campaign
will begin its final story arc – a series of core adventures that
will build into the climactic two-round finale at Origins 2008. We're
pulling out all the stops in these final adventures – no major NPC is
off-limits, and you're really going to be a part of the most world-
affecting story arc we've ever done. We're getting some of the best
authors to ever write for Living Greyhawk to help with these
adventures – what the Circle has planned is nothing short of amazing.
While the campaign concludes at Origins next year, it is our
sincerest desire to provide you an epic conclusion to the campaign we
all love so much.
I know you want more specifics, now that the cat's out of the bag.
Regions will have up to 6 adventures next year – all of them will
premiere no later than June 30, 2008. Metaregions will have 4
adventures next year, with the same premiere deadline. All adventures
released in 2007 and 2008 will be playable until December 31, 2008.
We're also looking at increasing play opportunities for your
characters in 2008 so they have a better chance of reaching the goals
you've set for them. The two specials next year – the first and last
adventures in the final core story arc – will be available for all
conventions soon after they premiere at their respective shows. Many
more players will be able to enjoy all of the final adventures for
Living Greyhawk, as the specials come to their local shows.
More information on Living Greyhawk's conclusion will become
available in the next few weeks on the website.
Xen'drik Expeditions will also be concluding at Origins 2008. As the
D&D Campaigns programs use 2-year story arcs, the campaign pulls into
its last stop right on time. The Factionmasters have prepared a great
final story arc that really engages all of the factions into a final
two-round spectacular at Origins next year. Stormreach will never be
the same after it's over.
We also bid a fond farewell to Living Kingdoms of Kalamar in 2008. At
D&D Experience next year, LK will run its special finale adventures.
All other adventures will be playable through the RPGA until March
31, 2008.
So, with the existing campaigns ending, what will rise up to take
their place? Read on!
Campaigns Beginning
At D&D Experience 2008, you'll be able to get your first full-on play
of D&D 4th Edition in its final form. This will come in the form of
preview adventures for the next Living campaign – Living Forgotten
Realms! The most popular campaign setting for D&D finally gets its
turn as a regionalized Living campaign. If you like the system for
Living Greyhawk, you'll love what we have in store with Living
Forgotten Realms: more play opportunities for the average gamer,
fully supported online and offline play, and a greater shared-world
experience than we've ever done before with a Living campaign. Living
Forgotten Realms will be the first truly global Living campaign.
But we can't do it without your help! We're placing a call out for
administrators to help us on both a global and regional level.
Information on how you can help will be available in September on the
RPGA website. Global and regional administrators will get previews of
4th Edition material as they work to provide the most immersive game
experience you'll ever find in an organized play campaign.
D&D Experience 2008 is the place to be for exciting previews of the
new Living campaign; the campaign fully launches at Gen Con Indy 2008.
With Xen'drik Expeditions ending, a new D&D Campaigns program will
take its place. As it is scheduled to begin in late summer/fall 2008,
we can't yet announce what it will be, but it will improve upon the
success of Xen'drik. (Of course, we'll be looking for help with that
as well – once again, check on the website in a few weeks for more
info.)
More to Come!
As 2007 rolls on, we'll have a lot more to talk about regarding our
current programs, the upcoming programs mentioned above, and other
exciting new programs coming out in 2008 and beyond. There's still a
lot more information we want to get out to you, but we have to save
some of our goodies for a little later!
Thanks to everyone involved in the RPGA for making our organization
the success it is today. Stay with us, as it's going to get even
better.
Game On!
____________ ______
Chris Tulach
RPGA Content Manager
Wizards of the Coast
-
So 42 are you apart of the RPGA? Do you participate in any of their campaigns?
This seems like it'd be the most opportune time for any aspiring DMs or players to join the RPGA on a fresh, clean start. I've looked into the RPGA once or twice before, but it always just seemed so convoluted and at times daunting and confusing.
-
I bet the reason Wizards was trying to get the Dragonlance setting rights was for it to replace Living Eberron.
-
So 42 are you apart of the RPGA? Do you participate in any of their campaigns?
This seems like it'd be the most opportune time for any aspiring DMs or players to join the RPGA on a fresh, clean start. I've looked into the RPGA once or twice before, but it always just seemed so convoluted and at times daunting and confusing.
Yeah, we play Living Greyhawk. I think their campaign rulebook makes it look a lot worse then it is. If you can find someone who already does it, then it is pretty simple.
I got a 5th lvl elf cleric and a human cleric/rogue who's a few xp from lvl 10. I think might try to fit in as many of the Living adventures with my elf and try to get him into this campaign-ending adventure. Then try to do Expedition to the Demonweb Pits with my other cleric (that is a hardback adventure by WotC). It will be a lot more fun to retire my living greyhawk chars with some cool adventures, then just some lame run-0f-the-mill adventure that just happened to be the one that got them to lvl 16 (your char auto-retires once they have enough xp to make lvl 16).
-
Yes I am a member of the RPGA if that adds to my geek cred.
I play and DM about equally. And currently I work at organizing events.
Just learned, RPGA members that are Living Greyhawk Triad and Xen'drik Expedition's Factionmasters get to play test 4th ed. around January. Thank goodness I know the local LG Triad member. Even if I don't get to play test, I should be able to get some information from him.
-
I've been holding off posting, and I probably sound like a lot of other people, but seriously, the idea of *another* D&D edition pisses me off. I really don't need to spend $100 to play their game. I'm tired of defending the system to friends who don't like it when what I get for doing that is another un-needed edition.
1978 - AD&D PHB first published
1989 - 2nd ed PHB first published
2000 - 3rd ed PHB published (that's 11 years between editions)
2003 - 3.5 PHB published -- there were a few things that were cleared up, so even despite the blatant "we want you to spend money on our miniatures to play our already expensive game" I went along with it.
2008 4th edtion PHB planed for publication.
Not only has it been *only* five years since the last edition, it's only been 8 years since the one before that! It'd be different if I could still get them for under $15 like I could when I was a teen, but this is absurd. This edition is not needed. I can't even get myself to read up on the planned changes because I get so angry whenever I think of this.
-
I think WotC doesn't really care about loosing long-time players. I think they see they have more to gain by attracting new players. A lot of younger players that I know are really excited about 4th ed. whereas a lot of older players I know are fuming mad.
-
I'm indifferent.
I don't see why SE is so upset, no one is forcing anyone to buy 4e and just like second edition or 1st just play the one you like--it's not like 4e coming out prevents you from playing 3.x since just about every conceivable book has come out for that system. I really think, outside of organized play, 4e is a non-issue for 3.x fans. And as for the 8 years isn't long enough argument I buy new software versions (both OS and other development stuff) every 4-5 years so how is this different?
Heck the reason 4e interests me is the lack of books, it would be nice to play a system were there's not 100 books to keep track of.
-
I'm not interested in counter arguments, nor am I so naive to think that Wizards cares about my single opinion. bringing in a new player to my group with the rulebooks less availalbe *does* affect me. It's not that I'm a big fan of 3.x, I just don't want *another* system, especially since there *will* be at least three books. D&D is one of the more expensive systems, even when you only consider the core books.
It's frustrating. Plus, I *don't* buy every new version of software, nor is it as big an obstacle. You don't have to do anything to a PSD file to use is it in later versions of Photoshop, you have to convert a character sheet, a dungeon, a monster, a magic item, whatever. That's a significant variation from the new software version comparison.
My final judgement: lame.
-
I also find myself feeling apathetic toward the change. I'd already decided not to buy any new 3.5 books, as I've spent too much already, and I don't like the way it's getting increasingly overpowered. I have no desire to spend additional money to replace my current library with 4th ed adjustments.
I guess if I were to get angry about something, it would be that 3.5 products were still being cranked out while 4th ed was being put into motion. That seems a slap in the face to gamers who thought they were making a long-term investment in a system that would continue to be "current" for years to come. Sort of like still making out with your significant other when you know you're going to dump them soon.
And, yes, I understand that WotC is a company, and that their focus is to make a profit, and to that they feel reinventing their product is the best way to do that. But I really feel there's something to be said for not alienating your core users.
So I guess I lied. I am kind of upset about it.
-
See I see it a little different Harbinger, I don't see it as a slap in the face for those that like 3.x to have books still coming out, I see it as Wizards still supporting those that like the line because--as I've stated several times--you don't have to buy 4.0 if you like 3.x. Heck the books will be around on the internet and Ebay for several years so it won't even be hard for new players to get any of them if they want.
I'm just having a real hard time grasping the argument people are getting screwed by this, or that RPGs should only have new editions every 10 years or that 4.0 some how invalidates all the books you have now. Heck I've got RPG books for systems that have been out of print for years and that doesn't make me think "Well I can't play this game anymore because it's not currently being published".
I'm thinking most of the people that are upset about this are just being reactionary and that by the time 4.0 actually comes out those same people won't care one bit or will be in line to buy it themselves.
-
I think, in a quick post, that what SE and others are feeling is that from 3 to 3.5 there were minor changes, but still everything was the same price.
Now, however, we're getting the same price again, but still don't have much information on what we're getting besides another "overhaul" of a system that's been around for a while.
Are you also noting Sprig, that D&D is more of an investment of a table-top game than most others? I've got a few systems laying around that are only one book. However, D&D has (always?) been filled with a number of books that expand the system/world for you.
I'm sure everyone here can say they have at least $200 worth of D&D material, if not more.
-
I understand that Gemm, but I don't see how 4.0 makes those $200 3.x books worthless or this feeling of betrayal that I'm sensing.
I personally don't have $200 in D&D books, I do have that in D20 books (and almost twice that in Palladium).
-
There is a lot of 3e rules that could be tightened up, but my big question is how much 4e will actually do that. How much are they tightening it up, and how much are they just cutting stuff out to avoid dealing with it. I mean if you cut out full attacks and grappling and 1 round/lvl buff spells and AoOs, yeah that will probably speed up game play. But then you add in a 25 lvl spell system (vs. 9 lvl), more abilities to keep track of, and encouraging a larger number of enemies per encounter, you kind of lose that extra speed. And it didn't even tighten up any rules, just got rid of some rules that took awhile and filled up the extra time with new rules.
So maybe they will tighten up 4e a lot between now and release, and it will be really cool. But if it blows prismatic chucks everywhere, or is not really any better, just a bit different, then I don't see myself getting into it much beyond maybe a copy of the PHB. Certainly not a monthly fee for D&D Insider. But if its awesome, then it might be worth it. I don't really want to figure out how much I spent on 3rd edition stuff, but its safe to say over $2000. That isn't my big concern with 4e, its if the game is actually good or not.
-
see, your problem sprig, is that you think that terms like 'being screwed' describe how we feel.
I'm just mad that they don't want to take care of me anymore. Instead, they want me to spend another $100 for a new edition. Before you bring up the tired "you don't have to buy 4.0" again, no, i don't, but YES they DO want me to buy it. No reward for being a faithful devotee of the system.
And no, they're not obligated, and they want to make money. I just don't want to give it to them anymore. It's goign to be *very* hard to get excited about a system, no matter how cool they make stuff, if 5.0 is going to come out in 2013. And that's the precedent they're setting.
I liked it when TSR was the monster in the dungeon, but that monster was still something you could slay. TSR was like AD&D dragons. Few, if any, things were tougher, but a big bad dragon still only had 16 HD. Now that Wizards of the Coast owns D&D, and Hasbro owns Wizards, they're becoming this over-powered, hyper-massive gargantuan beast that you have to have epic levels to slay. Well, sorry, I don't have the epic levels. I'm married, have 4 kids, and Wizards won't send me review products anymore. I guess this means we're breaking up. (to mix metaphors)
-
So... you're saying you're mad because you don't get free stuff anymore?
-
Because it's fun to pick on SE, why should they reward you for being "devoted"? you never bought any 3.x books. At least Eagle has an argument there (as well as the organized play argument).
-
It's going to be *very* hard to get excited about a system, no matter how cool they make stuff, if 5.0 is going to come out in 2013. And that's the precedent they're setting.
If you look at Magic the Gathering, a new edition of that is released every two years like clockwork. So uh, yeah I'd say you are right that 4e will never last as long as 2e or 1e. But they are planning on releasing a new PHB every year with 4e (and a new MM, but they already did that in 3e, and a new setting). 3e only had PHB and PHB2, so its hard to say what a PHB6 might look like, but the PHB2 had a few rules changes (like the polymorph errata and swift/immediate actions). So maybe it will extend the life of 4e, but I wonder if you'll still be able to get the errata for free online. If you are stuck buying every new PHB just for errata, the whole idea is kinda DOA.
-
Since it's still D20 I would assume either Wizards themselves or fans will have free conversion rules from 3.x to 4.x
-
I don't think Wizards will have conversion rules, they said it was too different to bother. But fans will no doubt have conversions. The OGL/SRD gives you a whole lot you can do with 3e, and 4e is supposed to be under the OGL too. So in theory a fan could make a conversion document and even charge for it, but most likey someone will do up a good one for free. But I doubt that someone will be WotC.
-
So... you're saying you're mad because you don't get free stuff anymore?
No, I don't believe that's what I said at all.
edit: I was going to leave it at that, but I'm hurt by this comment. I thought better of you than that, Stacy. I know you work for Wizards, but I'm not criticizing your work or even your department. I wrote a single clause in one sentence about free stuff, basically saying why I'm more than willing to give up on D&D. That was hardly the central point of my post -- which was that with a new edition ever 3-5 years, I'm unwilling to stay involved with it. It may work for them, but not using me as a customer. Yes, I'm disappointed I don't get review material from Wizards anymore, but that hasn't stopped me from spending money on D&D, or on other games. I still have a large chunk of my spending budget for leisure. That budget just won't be spent on D&D products any more.
Because it's fun to pick on SE, why should they reward you for being "devoted"? you never bought any 3.x books. At least Eagle has an argument there (as well as the organized play argument).
*ignores*
-
I'm sorry the comment hurt you, but you did say it, and it felt rather odd that you'd include it--it felt like you were going through the laundry list, and 4th edition was the straw that broke the camel's back. And it may not be my department--and really, I don't pay that much attention to games--but the games side of things is actually part of my overall department (books is part of R&D). And when you said that you wouldn't be willing to even read the press release or to find out what new stuff might be available, not to mention they didn't give you free stuff anymore, it kind of ticked me, because honestly, I'm tired of the "Wizards is a corporate monster" line--not just from you. I hear it all over. Certainly, it's a public company so there are rules and stuff that a lot of us have to abide by due to law than employees at smaller private companies have to deal with--I deal with that restriction on the publishing end of things, too. But I'm just tired of people thinking that the place I work is this big Evil Empire because really, it's no different than probably a lot of companies you guys work for.
ETA: I don't care whether you buy 4th ed. or not. Your perceptions etc. are your own. And I should have just stayed out of the conversation entirely the way I avoid pretty much anything that involves me having to choose my words so carefully because of restrictions that I have as someone who might be taken as a representative of a company. But I'm not speaking as a representative of a company right now. I'm just saying, it struck me as off.
-
That's a gross oversimplification of my remarks, however. I did make a metaphor about it being a corporate monster, but that wasn't the reason I stated for not reading the press release. That, as I said, is because spending time on what they're doing with these new editions frustrates me. That is not directly connected to the size of Wizards. I should have elaborated on the connection, i suppose, since I *do* feel that being the massive force in the rpg industry is why they feel they can do things like this and ignore individual users -- they could go back to D&D and AD&D like they did in the old days, supporting two slightly different systems for the same game. But they choose not to.
In the end though, it's not a "size" thing. It's a business decisions thing. I don't like how they use a product I used to love. I'm sorry if you feel that means it reflects on you. In my personal opinion, I don't think it does, but I can see why the connection would be there. I wish I could discuss my feelings about D&D without that onus, I just don't know how to do that.
If it helps, D&D is pretty much the only Wizards product that annoys me now. I'm a huge fan of HeroScape now -- I find myself budgeting a large chunk of my spending on it each month. And the only reason I don't buy M:tG cards anymore is because I haven't actually played a game in over 2 years (I need someone to play with). The fiction I've read from their new lines has been consistently high quality -- if anything that's a major case in favor of the size of Wizards, since they wouldn't have pulled it off running like TSR used to. D&D is just frustrating for me. Now, if we extend it to all of Hasbro, I might get into some mystifying decisions with Marvel Legends and Star Wars action figures, but even there, I think that some of their toy lines are peerless in the industry (G.I. Joe Sigma 6, for example, and the new Transformers lines are very impressive).
Short form: my beef is with the decisions about D&D, not anything or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast or Hasbro, and I hope that you don't think I believe you're in a bad company. I'd love to work for them, though not on D&D products anymore.
-
. . . and I hope that you don't think I believe you're in a bad company. I'd love to work for them, though not on D&D products anymore.
I hope the corporate culture hasn't changed since I visited in 2002. We were in Washington on vacation and visited Renton, where I lived once upon a time. I just had to visit. Loved the dragon hanging in the stairwell. The receptionist was awesome. She gave my children free Harry Potter and Pokemon cards, let us look around, and was very nice. I always interpret the way the receptionist acts as a sign of how the company operates. Probably a bad generalization but that's my experience. I got the feeling that they like to have fun.
I'd love to work for them as well.
I could spend every lunch hour sitting on the stairs looking up at that dragon. (They've moved since then, haven't they? But I assume the dragon is still hovering somewhere.)
-
The culture at work is still very fun, despite moving--across the street. Jokes about "why did the dragon cross the road?" were popular at the time. Sadly, Pam, the receptionist you probably talked to, just retired. Well, not sad for her--she's having fun! But sad for us because she really is awesome. But the other receptionists are great, too.
SE: truce.
-
Hi guys. Wow, the forums look different now. It's been a while I guess.
Went over the thread just for fun and I thought I'd post on the off-chance that it'll keep Stacer from having to agonize unnecessarily. If you haven't yet and have any interest in 4th edition, I'd recommend checking out the new D&D site at www.wizards.com/dnd --- especially the Design and Development articles after 8/16/2007. The website looks imposing at first glance, but it turns out that if you have a wizards.com login already, you can use the same one without having to register again.
Personally, I'm liking (almost) everything I see. The article on classes was great as it gave a peek at what the 4.0 Fighter might look like. It's a class that's needed fleshing out ever since the game was made, and it looks like it's getting something more than bonus feats finally. They also renamed the article on 'class roles' to 'power sources' which is what it's about anyway.
The article that impressed me the most was the sample fight with an ancient dragon. Throw out your own little internal rulebook when you read it, because the dragon breaks through rules barriers regularly. It takes two standard actions & a move action plus a few free action attack abilities on its own turn just for starters, and uses its breath weapon as an immediate action based on a certain trigger---the fact that it went below half health, I think. Keeping in mind that the dragon is an ancient dragon, however, I can't gripe at it's power. Ancient dragons should be that cool, and they're finally getting a way to deal with the fact that they only get to go once before 4-6 PCs go. In any event, the dragon in the sample fight gets to be far more involved than our typical 3.5 dragon. In 3.5, the dragon would probably either take a full attack or fly/breath weapon, which is pretty dull in comparison.
I'd also note the lack of any attack of opportunity reference (almost - there's one thing that could be an AoO but might not be). There isn't a reference to full attacks either, although that might be incidental...only the dragon ever had an opportunity to make one. The Cleric in the example fight also gets to do some healing while they fight, something that I'd like to see a lot more of.
I probably sound like a huge fan...maybe I am, but I like to think that I'm just waiting until 4th edition releases before I make a decision. The changes being made sound like a lot more than just the version upgrade we saw from 3.0 to 3.5 though, and from what I've seen so far it looks like they may be worth the pain of version update. Books are spendy, and it'll take an awfully big improvement for me to re-invest, but this might be enough. I'll find out as we go.
-
The dragon minis did about the same thing. The black dragon is basically a 500 pt army by itself; it gets 6 activations per round, and for every 100 hp it's down, it loses an activation. Their breath weapon and melee damage is quite a bit lower b/c of this too. But in the rpg, you have 6 peope vs a solo dragon, then the dragon needs to do enough to make up for the fact that its 6 vs 1 (six actions vs one); its got to do a lot in that one action. So you end up with a breath weapon that can knock the whole party down to 1/2 hp in one go. Now if everyone made their save and the dragon got a 4 on its next breath weapon use, you are still in decent shape (only down 1/4 hp and have 3 rounds free from breath weapon). But if everyone fails their save, and the dragon only gets a 1 on its next use, everyone better scatter or you'll end up with a TPK next round. I don't know if giving solo monsters extra turns is the best way to handle it, but it is cleary a lot easier to balance (with one you end up easier on the extreme ends, with the other you end up more in the average range. Similiar to the difference between rolling 1d12 and 2d6).
-
I'm holding my opinion for the release of 4e, its still to early for me to get excited or upset about it. When 3E was first released I was on my ship checking every freaking bookstore every time I came in port and spazzing when It wasn't in. That said I am mildly concerned that once I buy 4E Wizards will have 4.5 out 3-4 years after I buy it.
I would also like to say that telling someone that they don't have to play it and can keep going on and playing 3.5 while kind of true overlooks the fact that the bulk of people playing are going to switch to 4E also its kind of mean and antagonistic. I don't see a lot of folks playing second edition D&D in Game Parlor or 1st edition GURPS or even Star Wars D6 (and most folks feel d6 star wars is a superior game). It cuts down on play options and frankly getting 3 new core books could be the make or break point for old gamers. Me, Im a little ticked that I spent a lot of cash on Ebberon and know that I wont be able to use those books with 4E. If 4e is like Saga Star Wars then I do think I want to play, and Im not looking forward to getting Ebberon again financially. I think this move was more for new gamers though, not for us Groganards, basically its a now everyone has to start at 3 books again respawn. 90 bucks is way more affordable for youngsters than 3-500 bucks.
-
So I read the class roles article, and it essentially says "we stole the skill system from Guild Wars." Which is fine, because that's a great skill system, it's just kind of funny to hear them describe it so closely without coming right out and saying it. Note that I'm not referring to the "you only get 10 powers at once" part of Guild Wars, just the skills themselves.
The dragon fight is interesting, not so much for the vast number of attacks it gets, but because it doesn't use any of them to cast spells. Monster Manual 5 talked about how dragons had become giant spellcasters who happened to look like dragons, and didn't really "feel" like dragons anymore. This new guy definitely feels like a dragon, and that's one change I'm very glad to see.
The Dungeon design thing is also a welcome change--an equal number of monsters and PCs instead of the PCs ganging up on a single monster is rarer than it should be.
-
The released design and development articles are interesting though I wonder how much what they say will change in the next few months. I know they are still asking people for opinions.
Things I've heard rumored to be on the chopping block:
Attacks of Opportunities (nearly certain to be going)
Turn Undead
Grapple
Spell Buffs
Power Attack
Summoning
Leadership
-
I can totally see them taking out leadership--they've complained about that feat for years.
-
So I read the class roles article, and it essentially says "we stole the skill system from Guild Wars." Which is fine, because that's a great skill system, it's just kind of funny to hear them describe it so closely without coming right out and saying it. Note that I'm not referring to the "you only get 10 powers at once" part of Guild Wars, just the skills themselves.
The dragon fight is interesting, not so much for the vast number of attacks it gets, but because it doesn't use any of them to cast spells. Monster Manual 5 talked about how dragons had become giant spellcasters who happened to look like dragons, and didn't really "feel" like dragons anymore. This new guy definitely feels like a dragon, and that's one change I'm very glad to see.
The Dungeon design thing is also a welcome change--an equal number of monsters and PCs instead of the PCs ganging up on a single monster is rarer than it should be.
What is Guild Wars skill system like? Never played it.
-
It's like Diablo except you're attributes are class based and are more like the skill trees in diablo except you just don't get new skills for placing more points in them but skills based off them get better. Skills themselves are learned independently and there are about 500 for each class but you can only have 8 slotted at a time and can only switch them out in towns.
-
Very little of which is what I was referring to, though.
The best way to describe it is the way Wizards did:
Weapons and how fighters use them provided a blueprint for their design. A skilled halberdier can hack a foe with his weapon’s blade and spin around to smash a second foe with the haft. A fighter with a longsword disarms her foe with a flick of her wrist, while a battle hungry axeman cleaves through shields, armor, and bone. The design for fighter maneuvers came down to looking at weapons, figuring out how a fighter could use one, and deciding on special effects that felt cool for the weapon and proved useful for the class.
So imagine that a fighter has a bunch of different abilities he can use, like weapon moves and special attack, that function like spells and depend on a specific weapon type. That's exactly how Guild Wars works and, apparently, D&D 4. The description of rogue abilities is dead-on as well:
A nimble rogue dives through the air to tumble past an ogre, while a charismatic one tricks an enemy into looking away just before she delivers a killing blow with her dagger.
Like Jordo said, GW skills are tied to an attribute, so depending on which attribute you focus on, certain skills get better. The abilities in D&D 4 seem to follow a similar idea.
-
This is more class ability and feat related then you have Skill points in a weapon and thus can use X number of attacks.
-
Well, I'm not any sort of D&D fan, but I think 4th ed. will finally make D&D an interesting RPG. I haven't boughten D&D since 2nd, but I've been following 3rd, and I think that 3rd started to fix some of the worst parts of D&D. 4th, from what I can gather, may fix them entirely—particularly the moronic magic system. I will be interested in seeing how it pans out. It also seems like characters will feel very super-powered/anime-ish. It's as if D&D is discarding its last pretenses of any sort of reality/simulationist appeal and going for something outright fun.
I'm looking forward to seeing how it pans out. However, because of the 3rd in 2000 3.5th in 2003, I may not buy 4th out of trepidation.
D&D has need major fixing from the beginning. From what I've heard about changes, 4th may finally get it right (though I'm still partial to WFRP).
-
http://icv2.com/articles/home/11618.html
Wizards is killing the D20 STL for 4th but keeping the OGL, I get a little confused between OGL and D20 STL myself but my understanding is that with 4th people will not be able to refrence wizards books, use their core classes, spells or feats.
-
I'm glad their keeping the OGL. Not so sure how closing the STL will impact things. I theorize that it might impact companies that make adventures the most.
-
http://icv2.com/articles/home/11618.html
Wizards is killing the D20 STL for 4th but keeping the OGL, I get a little confused between OGL and D20 STL myself but my understanding is that with 4th people will not be able to refrence wizards books, use their core classes, spells or feats.
Too early to tell exactly what it will be like, but the OGL is what lets you do whatever you want with whats in the SRD. The d20 STL is an extra license on top of that so you can put the d20 logo on the cover of your books. Using the STL in 3e meant you couldn't detail player creation rules in your book and stuff like that, but basically anyone who plays dnd will know that logo means its supposed to work with 3e, so more people will probably buy your book (or that was the idea anyway). Something like Mutants and Masterminds uses only the OGL, so it can detail character creation rules and what-not. Also from what I know, the OGL/SRD for 4th edition will be completely seperate from the 3e one; the 4e OGL will no doubt have at least a few changes, so its still a bit early to say what it will or won't allow, but I guess it will be largely the same.
-
The biggest hit from losing the STL will be Iron Kingdoms. Privateer is going to have to switch to OGL (which would be a major rewrite) or strike some kind of special deal with WotC.
-
I've actually heard talk, not true if it's accurate, that if Privateer keeps up the RPG they'll just create their own system.
But, on a similar note, what would prevent them from releasing 3.5 down the road? I don't think Wizard's can retract the old license or even would bother doing so.
-
if Privateer did that, I would give them my eternal love.
-
http://icv2.com/articles/home/11878.html
SRD and OGL release information
You can get it now for $5k (obviously intended for publishers) which has:
"The OGL Designer's Kit includes pre-publication versions of the 4th Edition Rulebooks (Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual) as well as a pre-pub version of the System Reference Document (SRD), an Opening Gaming License (OGL), a License Guide, registration card, updated documents as the rules are finalized, and advance copies of all the finished core rulebooks. "
or wait until June 6th for the SRD to be posted free, OGL won't be free until next year (which means if you want to make a 4th edition book you have to pay up or wait a year), Wizard's says they're doing this to try and make sure 3rd party content is quality so gamers don't get burned.
-
There are some previews of the rules from DDXP. Some of the stuff I noticed, there are no more full-round actions (or the full attack). You get a standard action, move action, and minor action. Minor actions include stuff like drawing a weapon or opening a door. There are also free actions, these can now be taken at any time, not just on your turn (ie you can talk in-game even if its not your turn). There is also still immediate actions, but they seem incorporated a bit more (ie readied actions use immediate actions). Charge uses a standard action now, rather than a full-round (as those apparently don't exist anymore), but you only move up to your normal speed (instead of double). You can also charge through difficult terrain. The charge gives only a +1 to hit, but I think there is no longer an AC penalty.
A 5-foot step is no longer 'free', it takes your whole move action to make the 5-foot "shift" (as its called now). I think elves get a racial ability that lets them move 10 feet when making a shift instead of just 5 feet.
You only use your 'standard' attack for opportunity attacks (attacks of opportunity, guess they wanted to shorten the wording); the attacks you make on your turn instead use your at-will abilities, ie the rogue has one that is a lot like spring attack/shot on the run, and another one that lets him ignore armor.
Reach no longer automatically gives you more threatened squares, you also need a second ability called 'threatening reach' (or something like that).
Hit points are figured a bit different too. Rogues, for example, start with 12 + Constitution score in HP, and get 5 per lvl (no dice or Con mod). You get so many healing surges per day, rogue gets 6+ Con mod, I think fighter gets 9+ Con mod. A healing surge heals you 1/4 your normal max HP and takes a 5 minute rest to do. You can also, once per encounter as a standard action, use Second Wind, that lets you use a healing surge in combat. Clerics can make your healing surges cure more damage, and I think let you do them more than once inside combat.
-
Some character sheets: http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/02/first-look-at-n.html