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Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Tekiel on February 12, 2007, 06:22:33 AM

Title: Dragonsteel
Post by: Tekiel on February 12, 2007, 06:22:33 AM
Did I read your webpage right?  You're writing Dragonsteel!?  Yay!  Is this the Dragonsteel we know, or is it a completely different one? 
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Spriggan on February 12, 2007, 06:59:49 AM
It's the one with the clepto reptile.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on February 12, 2007, 03:46:32 PM
It amuses me that "steel" is not hte same as "steal" and yet the mis-spelled "klepto" is still used.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Tage on February 12, 2007, 05:39:41 PM
Priceless, Sprig, truly priceless.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: EUOL on February 12, 2007, 09:18:00 PM
Heh.  Wondering how long it would take people to notice this.

Yes, it's looking like my next series--after Warbreaker, which is looking like it will be a two-book cycle--will be set in the Dragonsteel world.  I'm revamping the setting significantly, mashing it together with Aether of Night, which always had a cool magic system but a weaker plot. 

I have some sample chapters done, actually.  Dragonsteel is now the series name, and the first book will be titled "The Liar of Partinel."  (Probably.)  The book you all read (now tentatively titled "The Eternal War") will be the third or fourth book in the series, and we will wait that long to introduce Jerick, Ryalla, and Bat'Chor.  "Liar" will take place some five hundred years before "The Eternal War." 

If anyone is willing to take a look at the chapters for me and give me comments, I'd appreciate it.  I have to turn my attention right now to the Mistborn 3 rewrite, so I won't be able to work on Liar for a while.  It would be nice to get some thoughts on this intro before I dive back into the book, since I only consider these 'sample' chapters, which I may revise--or even toss aside--when I start working on the book full time.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: dawncawley on February 12, 2007, 11:06:52 PM
Since I am getting to the tail end of my school stuff, I would be more than happy to read anything you put in front of me. And no, I won't just tell you what I think you want to hear, I will be as honest as I can about how I think they are. But, I don't have any publishing, writing, or any other experience, other than I am an avid reader who knows what they like. :) Just let me know.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on February 12, 2007, 11:11:44 PM
I want it. Oh, I want it so bad. And I just finished my novel rewrite this morning from 4:15 to 7:08 AM (letting me go back to sleep for an hour, not that I'm sure I slept any), so I am free!

The book not being the first in the series would probably ruin my favorite "wow" moment of the book, but oh well. I'm looking forward to Cephandrius Maxtori, and I'm curious how the magic systems will blend with the Aether ones.

You are such a cannibal.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: dawncawley on February 12, 2007, 11:13:06 PM
Congratulations on finishing the re-write Ookla :D
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: EUOL on February 13, 2007, 03:34:10 AM
For a limited time, here's a link to download the initial draft of Dragonsteel: The Liar of Partinel.  There are six chapters here, so it's about 1/10 of the book, which is all I have done right now.

What I'm looking for:  Honest responses to characters, mostly.   The third one is the least well-developed in this section, I'm afraid.  I'll try to get another chapter for them done so that we can look at them more in-depth. 

I intend this to be the beginning of a six (or more) book series, so I need to make certain to start it off right.  Feel free to email me with guesses at plot spoilers and the like, and to email me back edited manuscripts, if you feel like it.  I fear that some of the surprises in the book are too obvious in this version of the draft, so I'd appreciate it if you'd keep spoiler guesses to emails.  Criticism, however, can simply go in the thread here. 

Dragonsteel Sample Chapters (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/LiarPt12.doc)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Parker on February 13, 2007, 06:23:13 AM
Well, for one thing, every time I read the title of Book One, I see Lair of Whatever, not Liar.  I think it's because I see Dragon and Liar so close together, so my mind keeps trying to say Liar must be a typo.  I don't know if that's just me, though.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: EUOL on February 13, 2007, 07:09:06 AM
Parker,

That's a good point, but to be honest, on the front of the book it will say "The Liar of Partinel" only.  If Dragonsteel is mentioned, it will be small--and perhaps only on the inside title page.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: U-Boat on February 13, 2007, 08:05:31 AM
So wait, I'm totally confused as to what you've released, EUOL.

There's Elantris- which is a standalone.
Then you have the Mistborn trilogy?

And the book you're writing online right now, the Warbreaker one?

What else?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: EUOL on February 13, 2007, 09:29:16 AM
Twelve other unpublished novels, U-boat.  Mistborn was my fourteenth book, Elantris my sixth.  One, named Dragonsteel, was my seventh and a number of the people on my forums knew me when I started writing it.  It was, in a way, the book that 'made me famous' among my group of friends.  So, many of them are excited to hear that I'm reworking the setting and planning to do the book for the big leagues. 

Dragonsteel Prime, the original, just isn't publishable as is.  There were some great ideas, but I didn't have the skill at the time to make them work.  So, I'm stealing some of the best ideas--and characters--and planning a new series around them.  Hence Ookla calling me a cannibal, since I'm 'Cannibalizing' my old ideas to make new books. 

The following is a complete Brandon Sanderson Bibliography, published and unpublished.  Prime indicates an early attempt at a book which was later redone.  (Note that when I redo a book like this, it isn't a 'rewrite.'  Generally, it's me taking some elements from the setting and writing a whole new book in that setting, using old ideas and mixing them with fresh ones.)  Published books are in bold.


1) White Sand Prime (My first book, took two + years to write.  1998)
2) Star's End (Science fiction.  1998)
3) Lord Mastrell (Sequel to White Sand Prime.  1999)
4) Knight Life (Fantasy comedy.  1999)
5) The Sixth Incarnation of Pandora (Science fiction.  1999)
6) Elantris (2000.  Published by Tor: 2005)
7) Dragonsteel (2000)
8 ) White Sand (2001)
9) Mythwalker (Never finished. 2001)
10) Mistborn Prime (Stole the magic system and title for a later book.  2002)
11) Final Empire Prime (Stole a character, some setting elements, and title for a later book.  2002)
12) The Aether of Night (2002)
13) The Way of Kings (350,000 words.  Took a long time.  2003)
14) Mistborn: The Final Empire (2004, Published by Tor 2006)
15) Mistborn: The Well of Ascension (2005.  Contracted to Tor for 2006)
16) Alcatraz vs. The Evil Librarians (2005.  Contracted to Scholastic for 2006)
17) Mistborn: The Hero of Ages (2006.  Contracted to Tor for 2007)
18) Warbreaker (2006.  Tentatively to be released by Tor for 2007)
19) Alcatraz vs. The Scrivener’s Bones (2006.  Contracted by Scholastic for 2008)
20) Dragonsteel: The Liar of Partinel (Unfinished.  2007?)
21) Alcatraz vs. The Knights of Crystallia (Planned.  2007  Contracted by Scholastic for 2009)
22) Nightblood (Planned.  2008)
23) Dragonsteel: The Lightweaver of Rens (Planned. 2008)
24) Alcatraz vs. The Dark Talent (Planned.  2008.  Contracted for Scholastic for 2010)

I'm not sure if I got all of those dates right, but the order is correct.  I'm finished with all the books up to Dragonsteel, though Mistborn 3, Warbreaker, and Alcatraz 2 are all only in the third draft stage.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Tjaeden on February 13, 2007, 07:58:39 PM
Where is the link to download them ALL?  (the ones planned for non-published careers?)

=)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Shrain on February 13, 2007, 08:04:50 PM
For a limited time, here's a link to download the initial draft of Dragonsteel: The Liar of Partinel.  There are six chapters here, so it's about 1/10 of the book, which is all I have done right now.Dragonsteel Sample Chapters (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/LiarPt12.doc)
Sweet. I'm in! :) Now I'm kinda glad I never finished reading Dragonsteel because my opinion won't be too skewed by what I read before. ;)

Hmm. I really, really need to get those Mistborn III comments to you, huh.... Dang it, I keep forgetting to comb thru my notes and condense it for you, EUOL. Sorry. I *have* written a couple paragraphs of my reactions overall--a sort of "review." Maybe I'll send that to you today and then work on chapter notes this weekend 'cuz I have NO homework. YAY!



Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Spriggan on February 13, 2007, 08:52:27 PM
Where is the link to download them ALL?  (the ones planned for non-published careers?)

=)

No, because his wife needs something to live off of once EUOL dies and what's better then "recently discovered" manuscripts that were "lost" or no-one previously "knew about".
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on February 13, 2007, 10:29:53 PM
Besides, if you've read the early versions that he cannibalizes for later books, there's major spoiler danger. For example, there's a big surprise in book 2 of Mistborn that's lifted straight from the original Mistborn Prime book that will have much greater impact if you've never read the original--though of course he makes it even better this time around. Also, having read the earlier versions can create potential confusion when you expect certain things to work the same way or suspect a certain plot point to eventually turn up, and things turn out radically different.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on February 15, 2007, 05:32:44 AM
I read the chapters last night, and quite enjoy them.

Hoid's name sounds too similar to Elantris' Hoed, and the word Jesk sounds too similar to Elantris' Jesker. How attached are you to them?

The way you introduce the characters makes them immediately interesting. I like Theus' ruthlessness. His relationship with Jend is an unusual one that I look forward to seeing more of. The bit about Hoid being unable to break a promise is a nice touch.

Midius is hard to judge at first; it seems he is following Hoid's last wish mostly out of respect and because he doesn't know what else to do with his life, not because he really believes in what he's doing. I don't know where he's coming from or where he's going, though his magic is nifty. He should be the main character, because of the title, so I assume he will become more sympathetic as time goes on. I liked his interaction with Kail. Kail seems a very complex character as well.

Yunmi is immediately likable. Strong, self-assured, crafty, good-humored. Is she too perfect?

Not sure about the purpose of the Eddau. I assume you have some reason for adding yet another nonhuman race to this universe (if the others remain at all).

I like the way you introduce the trune rings, and the skullmoss. There is an immediate, pressing conflict there--man vs. nature, adding to whatever political machinations Rens is up to.

It's a complex, multifaceted start to the plot, with interesting conflicts on at least four levels, some of which I expect will be satisfactorily resolved within this one book, but at least one of which I expect to take much longer. Good hook as far as I'm concerned.

If the first chapter is meant to be a prologue, it doesn't really hint at the epic nature of the series, but is on a much more personal level. The skullmoss is mentioned of course, but it doesn't seem important at the time. Of course, it's easier to introduce the intensity of the personal conflict, and it does work well to introduce that.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 15, 2007, 06:13:21 AM
If I may, I'd like to read them (now that I've figured out that you aren't doing a "DragonLance" type thing where it's a gigantic series written by a whole bunches of people and unless you've read the others you don't get what's going on...)  I don't know if the fact that I haven't read the others would be a bad or good thing though...

Anywho, I'm reading the one we can access, and would really, really love to know what's going to happen next, if I may.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on February 15, 2007, 06:38:51 AM
There is no more, yet, since he's doing the MB3 rewrite now. ;) (Or at least that's what he's supPOSED to be doing...)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: EUOL on February 15, 2007, 07:10:25 AM
Yes, I have begun the MB3 rewrite, so no more Dragonsteel for a time yet.  When there is, I’ll likely not be posting it on-line, since it will be a LONG time before this one sees bookshelves.   

Rainbow--you DON'T have to have read the other Dragonsteel to understand this.  The other Dragonsteel will never be published.  Some of the plots and characters in it, however, will eventually become book three of this series.  Not because I’m doing a “Dragonlance” type thing, but because when I sat down to work on this project, I realized that I’d rather start back in time a few hundred years.  In other words, I’m writing the prequels first, if that’s possible.   

Ookla, you have a very good point on Jesk/Hoid.  I should probably change jesk.  It's a left-over from Dragonsteel Prime, but right now it's kind of a distraction.  Perhaps I should simply name the storytellers all 'Lightweavers?'  Even those who can't use the magic?  I may have to work on Midius.  He's supposed to be the growth character here, and so I want room for him to progress, but I have to be careful not to make him unsympathetic at the beginning. 

Kail will be getting viewpoints.  Yunmi's next chapter really needs to be in this set, as I mentioned, to round her out as a character.  However, I'm VERY glad to hear that you like it so far, Ookla, since you're one of the original Dragonsteel proponents.  Know that I intend book one to be focused in, to be personal on the characters, with the later books expanding further and further in scope.  I liked how this worked in Mistborn, and want to see if I can do it over a longer period. 

As for the name Hoid...well, I don't want to say too much.  There's something going on there, however.

In worldbuilding this, I  realized that I missed a big opportunity in Dragonsteel Prime by not dealing with fainlife all that much.  It was a powerful world element that got mostly ignored.  By writing a book here, where I can slam a city in to the middle of the fain assault--before people learned really how to keep the alien landscape back--I think I’ll be able to focus more on the setting. 

One thing that always bothered me about Dragonsteel Prime is that it felt rather generic for me.  I like more distinctive settings, with more distinctive magics.  Yet, Dragonsteel Prime had a fairly standard fantasy world (though one set in the bronze age) with magic that didn’t really get used all that much in the first book.  The idea here is to add the Aether magic in, which is a ‘day-to-day’ magic, and to enhance the originality of the setting by using fainlife more.  Microkenisis, Realmatic Theory, Cognitive Ripples and Tzai Blows, and all of that will STILL be part of this world.  I’ve simply folded the Aethers in as well, and hopefully I can make it all feel cohesive.   
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: dawncawley on February 15, 2007, 08:00:20 AM
I have sent you a message with my thoughts on the chapters you allowed us to see. Thanks again I really enjoyed it. My notes are a bit more flushed out than that though ;)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 16, 2007, 03:47:50 AM
Yeah!  I mean, I'd probibly read it either way, but knowing that it's not something that I have to start trying to understand now makes things a little bit easier.  :D  Me liked the first bit, and I really hope you'll post the second part before too long... of course, finish MB3 first... since I need to get those too.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: MsFish on February 16, 2007, 05:30:40 AM
Two things, mostly off topic. 

1)  In the next book, Alcatraz goes against the Knights of Crystallia?!?  I want to read *that* book.  I think you should write it right now.  Especially since that would further distract you from your revision.

2) I am glad Dragonsteel will not be on the front of the book, because Tage tells me there aren't really any dragons.  If I picked up a book called Dragonsteel and then realized there weren't really any dragons (in the classical sense) I would feel extremely cheated and never read it just because of my anger.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on February 17, 2007, 02:16:51 AM
There was one dragon in the original book, of whom Brandon added more appearances in the later drafts. He was almost completely exciseable from the plot of that book (at least, in a simple, non-spoiler explanation), though he was clearly important to the universe as a whole and the series' overall arc.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: U-Boat on February 18, 2007, 08:16:06 AM
That means if I can count, you have 3 series you wish to publish- Alcatraz, Mistborn and dragonsteel, along with the standalone Warbreaker and Elantris?
Mistborn to be atrilogy, Dragonsteel to be a 6 book series, and Alcatraz to be?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on February 18, 2007, 08:49:26 AM
He said before that he wanted Alcatraz to be six books, but only four are contracted. And earlier in this thread he said that Warbreaker will be followed up by Nightblood, making two books total in that series.

And then there's the sequel to Elantris that he will write someday. And there are other whisperings on the wind, of course. Brandon is full of ideas. There's that Dark One book that was mentioned on his website as being in prewriting a while ago...I don't know what happened to that, since it's not in the big list.

Of the others in the list, I would expect White Sand to eventually see the light of day in some form, and also Way of Kings should get a rewrite eventually.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: half breed gypsy on February 18, 2007, 09:20:03 PM
Is it possible that Nightblood might be a sequel to Warbreaker?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: MsFish on February 18, 2007, 09:28:51 PM
Did you read the post above?  That's what he just said.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Pink Bunkadoo on February 19, 2007, 12:41:52 AM
Quote
Yunmi

Is that 윤 or 연?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: DavidB on February 19, 2007, 10:11:17 PM
Thanks for the sample chapters! I liked it. If there had been more, I would have kept reading, so as a hook, these chapters worked for me.

But...you asked for criticism. I'll be focusing on the negatives, so this'll sound a lot worse than it is.

I didn't get into Midius's character at all. I don't understand the reasons for most of what he does, and his character feels inconsistent to me, somehow. For example, he was going on in the first chapter about how gullible and stupid people are, but later on he gets stage fright, has a tough time telling stories to anyone, and it turns out he's never even tried to lie to people before, he just practiced in front of Hoid. Also, I take it I'm supposed to be worried that Theus is going to kill Midius, but Midius decided to let himself be captured (the fact that he caught the first spear suggests that he could have fought off the guards if he wanted to), and didn't even try to escape (depending on how realistic his illusions are, I can think of several possible escape plans). So either Midius has a death wish, or he knew that Theus wouldn't kill him (which implies he's working with Naysho, since if it weren't for Naysho, Midius would have had him killed -- not a spoiler since this is almost certainly wrong), or he had some kind of protection that would have kept him from dying even if Jend had tried to kill him. So, my feeling is that Midius should have clearer motives from the beginning of the story.

Also, Midius's first chapter-and-a-half feels like filler, like you didn't have anything important for Midius to do, but just wanted to break up Theus's parts. I especially disliked the first chapter. Hoid is annoying and patronizing. I hope this isn't one of those books where there'd be no plot of Hoid had just told Midius what he needed to know at the beginning, because those suck. And if you took out Hoid's babbling, you could cover everything in this chapter in about three paragraphs. Less, if you started the book later, and had just Midius remember Hoid's death.

The beginning of Midius's second chapter isn't as bad. I liked the feel of the Fain; it reminds me in a good way of the toxic jungle from Nausicaä of the Valley of the Winds (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087544/). But it's not like Midius hasn't seen it before, so  there's no reason for him to spend so much time just staring at the scenery. And he doesn't do anything else but stare at scenery in that scene.

You described the Fain as "alien" twice. The second time, I started wondering if you were doing on purpose, and actually meant to imply that it had extraterrestrial origins.

Naysho's city is sometimes spelled "Rens" and sometimes "Renz", but you probably already knew that.

After Theus lets Midius go, he has a sort of argument with Naysho. He figures he's in Naysho's debt because Naysho sent for an Aetherlin. But that's retarded. If the Aetherlin solves Partinel's problems, then Theus will be in Naysho's debt, but until then, Naysho wants the Aetherlin in the city and Theus doesn't, so it's really Naysho who's in Theus's debt. For example, Theus ought to be able to control Naysho by threatening to change his mind and turn the Aetherlin out of the city, and then telling the king of Rens that he did it because Naysho thought having the Aetherlin around gave him the right to be too obnoxious (thus destroying Naysho's career). Naysho would know that Theus probably wouldn't carry out that threat, but he'd also know that Theus didn't really want the Aetherlin around, so he might.

Yunmi was awesome when she showed up, but seemed too businesslike in her viewpoint section. I wanted her cheerfulness not to be an act, darn it.

Glimmer is going to get really annoying really fast if it keeps...speaking with...ellipses every...other word....
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: EUOL on February 20, 2007, 06:51:11 AM
Great comments, all.  I'll be posting more to this thread once I'm done with the Mistborn 3 rewrite and can turn my attention back to Dragonsteel. 

One thing to note now--I wasn't very satisfied with Glimmer's dialect myself, and DavidB's comments tipped me over the edge.  I'm now thinking of going with something more like this:

   Aether. a voice said in her mind.  It was light and airy, like a voice carried on the breeze, and felt lethargic.  King
   Yunmi glanced down at the rose-colored crystal embedded into her forearm just above her wrist.  King Theus? She thought.
   Aether. the voice responded, dull, slow.  As always, Glimmer’s voice was accompanied by images in her head, filling out the single word.  This time, the image was of a dark black crystal set into a man’s hand.  Theus’s hand, which had been covered by a glove when Yunmi had met him.
   So Theus does have an Aether, Yunmi thought.  Did you speak to it?
   Unresponsive, her Aether replied. Old.  In her mind, Yunmi saw the Theus’s Aether as Glimmer did--as a thing ancient, barely capable of putting out Aetherpulp.  A thing tired, yet forced to continue living on, attached to the king’s flesh. 

Also, I don't like Glimmer's name, so consider that a placeholder right now.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: dawncawley on February 20, 2007, 06:25:08 PM
I like that better. The images and the lack of .... will make that flow better, and it helps keep misunderstandings to a minimum :)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: DavidB on February 20, 2007, 10:17:27 PM
This is definitely better than the Shatneriffic dialect it replaces, but it does carry two potential pitfalls (which can be avoided with some creativity): The new speech gimmick might slow down the pace of the story, since it forces you to describe an image every time Glimmer says something; also, it's similar to the gimmick that Midius uses to tell stories, so it might feel recycled.

Here's another dialect suggestion, which you might consider using either instead or in addition. I noticed that in the sample you posted, Glimmer uses no verbs. You might make this a hard-and-fast rule, so that I don't understand human humor, for example, becomes, No understanding of human humor. This would takes some creative phraseology to keep it comprehensible, but might be alien enough on its own to  make Glimmer's speech distinct. (I think it's sort of reminiscent of Yoda's dialect, except that you'd be doing away with the verbs entirely instead of just moving them to the end.)

Incidentally, I don't blame Glimmer for not understanding human humor in the above quote, since the joke that it follows is way too forced to be funny.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 21, 2007, 04:25:11 AM
My thoughts mostly are just that Midius' name reminds me of the king who touched something and turned it gold.  I do agree though that his character seems a bit... unorginized.  He has diffrent sides and rather than flowing from one side to another he hops.  I also don't fully understand why people think all stories are lies, so the feeling towards him is a bit extream.  But maybe that's something that's explained a bit later.

I also was slightly turned away from the story by the amount of cruelness we see from the king at so early of a point in the book.  I think it may be that his logic isn't revealed until the end of the situation (which I wouldn't change), so it was quite a bit of a shock.  I hope though that the reasoning behind his brutality is explained a bit more.

Anywho, please update as soon as you get done with MB3... :D
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on February 22, 2007, 12:39:34 AM
EUOL's comment from the other thread:
Quote
In a related note, you may be interested to hear that I've decided to start Midius's viewpoint in Dragonsteel (once I can get back to it) with Hoid already dead, as a certain person suggested in their comments.  (I almost did this the first time I wrote the chapter, and it turns out I should have done that in the first place.)
I remember liking the imagery of how the poison was spreading under Hoid's skin (er, if my memory is right), so I hope this can be kept in a rememberance or something.

But anyway I'm just wondering what imagery you'll start the prologue off with now.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: dawncawley on February 22, 2007, 03:56:35 AM
I think it will be fun to see the changes made to this one, as well as the changes that are going on in your other books. :)

Rainbow, I know that the king seems really cruel, and that his judgements seem needlessly harsh, but I found comfort in the fact that it really seemed to bother him, the cruelty he had to commit to keep the kingdom prospering. I may have read it wrong, but his internal thoughts and wrestling with himself made that seem less like cruelty and more like something that HAD to be done for the good of the city to me. Until that point though, I thought it was just cruelty as well.

I don't know, I guess I can see both sides of it though.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 23, 2007, 02:44:26 AM
I did see that, and I did get to like him a bit more, but you don't get that until a while after, so I was quite shocked.  I see how it's needed, but I also don't fully understand his brutality.  I can't connect with him as well as other characters.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: dawncawley on February 23, 2007, 06:28:01 PM
I understand that. Thank you for explaining more fully.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on February 23, 2007, 09:15:59 PM
Much like Hrathen, I doubt he's meant to be a character you connect easily with at first.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: DavidB on February 23, 2007, 10:02:51 PM
I'd like to see a scene between him and his wife.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: EUOL on February 26, 2007, 06:08:34 AM
DavidB,

Scene with Theus and his family is the next one I was planning for him.  I might try to move it up.

My goal with this book, actually, is to start with chapter one (or the prologue) actually being a scene from later in the book.  (Midius about to be executed by Theus.)  Then, I'd jump back in time.  I've never done this before, and I want to try it.  I'm not sure if it will work for this book or not, but we shall see.

As for these chapters, I'll have revisions up eventually, and I'll let you all see them.  Right now, I'm planning to have the Midius chapter begin with him sitting quietly and contemplating Hoid's death, trying to decide if he wants to try and fill the master's shoes or not.  I'm going to have him decide on his own to head for Partinel, and will have had Hoid know about the problems there beforehand.  This, hopefully, will give Midius more direction as he goes intentionally having decided to try to help the city. 

(I will have Hoid having been working on the problem, in seclusion, of Partinel's shrinking trune ring.  The assassin killed him before he could solve anything, but Midius has his notes.)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 28, 2007, 06:48:33 PM
I think that may make his character a bit... fuller.  Right now he seems like he's two characters crammed into one situation (and sadly reminds me of a friend of mine who is exactly like that.)j

As for the flashback/time skip thing, I could see it working really well with the story.  I would love to see a full story where all the major points are revealed through flashback/time skips, because it would make for an intresting perspective as well as leaving the reader guessing (Similar to the journal from Mistborn).  How the modern characters would figure it out I'm not sure though...
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: EUOL on March 10, 2007, 10:25:55 PM
Folks,

I've turned my full attention back to this book, and have done a heavy rewrite of Chapter One, which helped me pound out who Midius is (in my mind at least.)  You can see the effect your comments had.  Here's the new version.  As always, comments are welcome!

 New Attempt at Liar Chapter One (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/LiarCh1v3.doc)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Parker on March 10, 2007, 11:05:45 PM
I enjoyed it.  This was the first time I'd read any of the drafts, so my eyes were fresh.  The beginning felt a bit rough--it took me too long to actually get into the story.  Some of that may have to do with the phrase

Hoid, The Liar, Jesk and Lightweaver

I couldn't tell if those were four different people, or one.  Thus, I felt for a bit like I was getting too many names, and I was having trouble keeping them straight in my mind.

The joke about talking to a corpse went on about one time too many for me.  It was fun at first, but use it more sparingly, IMO.

Lightweaving: how can someone just be starting out with it and already know its greatest secret?  That seems a little contradictory.  The magic is still very much fuzzy in my mind, but I'm assuming that's intentional.

Overall, though, you present a character that is intriguing, with a clear cut goal to what he wants to accomplish.  By the end of the chapter, I'm fully engaged in the book, and ready for more.  Now, I ought to get back to my homework.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: EUOL on March 11, 2007, 02:06:55 AM
Thanks, Parker! 

All, here's an experimental change I'm considering for the Theus chapters (and note the new Midius chapter at the bottom of the previous page.)  I think this may soften the brutality somewhat, even though it's all still there.  It will make for a drastic change in feel for the king as a character, but I'm very tempted to do this instead.  Reactions?

NEW CHAPTER TWO BEGINNING

      It’s a bad day to kill, Theusa thought.  Too cloudy.  A man should be able to see the sun when he dies, feel the warmth on his skin one last time.
   She marched down the dusty path, crops to her right and left, guards behind her.  The men of her personal guard wore woolen cloaks over bronze breastplates.  Bronze.  So expensive.  What farming supplies could she have traded for instead of the valuable metal armor?
   And yet, she really had no choice.  The armor meant something.  Strength.  Power.  She needed to show both.
   Several of the soldiers pulled their cloaks tight against the morning’s spring chill.  Theusa herself wore a woolen dress and shawl, the copper crown on her head the only real indication of her station.  King.  It had been twenty-some years since anyone had dared question her right to that title.  In the open, at least. 
   Her breath puffed in front of her, and she pulled her shawl close.  I’m getting old, she thought with annoyance.   
   Behind her towered the grand city state of Partinel, circled entirely--lake and all--by a rough stone wall reaching some fifteen feet high.  The wall had been commissioned, then finished, by Yornes the grand, her father-in-law.  She’d married his son, Didarion, in her twenty-third year of life.
   Didarion been a short time later.  That had been almost thirty years ago, now. 
   Old indeed, Theusa thought, passing out of the ring of crops.  Partinel’s trune ring was one of the largest in the Cluster, but it still provided a relatively small area in which to grow food.  They grew right up to the edge of the city wall in a full circle around the city.  Running in a loop around them was a narrow, earthen road.  Beyond that, a wide patch of carefully-watched and cultivated walnut trees ran around the city.  Her people cut down one group of trees every year and planted a new patch.  It was a good system, giving them both hardwood for trade and nuts for food.  In the Cluster, no land could be wasted.
   Because beyond the trees, the land became white.  The walnuts stands marked the border, the edge of Partinel’s trune ring and the beginning of fainlands. 
   Theusa could see the fain forest through a patch of walnut saplings.  She paused, looking out at the hostile, bleached landscape.  Bone white trees, with colorless undergrowth twisting and creeping around the trunks.  White leaves fluttered in the breeze, sometimes passing into the trune ring, dusted with a prickly white fungus. 
   Skullmoss, the herald of all fain life.  Her soldiers and workers gathered the leaves anyway and burned them, though it wasn’t really nessissary.  Though eating something fain--animal or plant--was deadly to a human, simple interaction with it was not.  Besides, fain life, even the skullmoss, could not live inside of a trune ring.
   That’s how it had always been.  White trees beyond the border, trune life within.  People could go out into the fainlands--there was no real danger, for skullmoss couldn’t corrupt a living creature.  Some brave cities even used fain trees for lumber, though Theusa had never dared.
   She shivered, turning away from the fain forest and turning to where a group of soldiers--with leather vests and skirts--stood guarding a few huddled people.  The prisoners included one man, his wife, and two children.  All knelt in the dirt, wearing linen smocks tied with sashes. 
   The father looked up as Theusa approached, and his eyes widened.  Her reputation preceded her.  The Bear of Partinel, some called her: a stocky, square-faced woman with graying hair.  Theusa walked up to the kneeling father, then bent down on one knee, regarding the man.
   The peasant had a face covered in dirt, but his sandaled feet were a dusty white.  Skullmoss.  Theusa avoided touching the dust, though it should be unable to infect anything within a trune ring.  She studied the man for a time, reading the pain and fear in his face.  He lowered his eyes beneath the scruitiny.
   “Everyone has a place, young man,” she finally said. 
   The outsider glanced back up.
   “The people of this city,” Theusa continued, “they belong here.  They work these crops, hauling water from the stormsea to the troughs.  Their fathers bled to build and defend that wall.  They were born here.  They will die here.  They are mine.”
   “I can work, lady,” the man whispered.  “I can grow food, build walls, and fight.”
   Theusa shook her head.  “That’s not your place, I’m afraid.  Our men wait upon drawn lots for the right to work the fields and gain a little extra for their families.  There is no room for you.  You know this.”
   “Please,” the man said.  He tried to move forward, but one of the soldiers had his hand on the man’s shoulder, holding him down.
   Theusa stood.  Jend, faithful as always, waited at the head of her soldiers.  He handed Theusa a small sack.  She judged the weight, feeling the kernels of grain through the canvas, then tossed it to the ground before the outsider.  The man looked confused.
   “Take it,” Theusa said.  “Go find a spot of ground that the fainlands have relinquished, try to live there as a chance cropper.”
   “The moss is everywhere lately,” the man said.  “If clearings open up, they are gone before the next season begins.”
   “Then boil the grain and use it to sustain you as you find your way to Rens,” Theusa said.  “They take in outsiders.  I don’t care.  Just take the sack and go.”
   The man reached out a careful hand, accepting the grain.  His family watched, silent, yet obviously confused.  This was the Bear of Partinel?  A woman who would give free grain to those who tried to sneak into her city?  What of the rumors?
   “Thank you, lady,” the man whispered.
   Theusa nodded, then looked to Jend.  “Kill the woman.”
   “Wha--” the outsider got halfway through the word before Jend unsheathed his bronze gladius and rammed it into the stomach of the kneeling outsider woman.  She gasped in shock, and her husband screamed, trying to get to her.  The guards held him firmly as Jend pulled the sword free, then he cut at the woman’s neck.  The weapon got lodged in the vertebrae, and it took him three hacks to get the head free.  Even so, the execution was over in just a few heartbeats.
   The outsider continued to scream.  Theusa stooped down again--just out of the man’s reach--blood trickling across the packed earth in front of her.  One of the guards slapped the outsider, interrupting his yells.
   “I am sorry to do this,” Theusa said.  “Though I doubt you care how I feel.  You must understand, however.  Everyone has a place.  The people of this city, they are mine--and my place is to look after them.”
   The outsider hissed curses at her.  His children--the boy a young teen, the girl perhaps a few years younger--were sobbing at the sight of their mother’s death.
   “You knew the penalty for trying to sneak into my city,” Theusa said softly.  “Everyone does.  Try it again, and my men will find the rest of your family--wherever you’ve left them--and kill them.”
   Then, she stood, leaving the screaming peasant behind to yell himself ragged.  Theusa’s personal guards moved behind her as she returned to the corridor through the wheat, Jend cleaning his gladius and sheathing it.  Over the tops of the green spring plants, Theusa could see a man waiting for her before the city.

(Edit, cleaned up language.)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: dawncawley on March 11, 2007, 07:22:21 AM
I am not sure that changes the brutality, in fact it may even make it seem more brutal coming from a woman. And obviously a woman used to killing those who question her authority, or her right to have it rather. At least that is the way she sounds. It may take a time or two to read it to kind of get used to the new feel of it, but I think it could work. So far though, I like the male version better. Like I said though, maybe after I read it a time or two it will grow on me, it isn't awful or anything. Just something that is making me re-think the chapters I have already in my mind, and change him to a her, and try to see what she would do differently. Do you have any more of the book written with this character instead of Theus? It may help the adjustment a bit ;)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: digitalbias on March 11, 2007, 08:09:52 AM
I think the previous chapter 1 was better if only for the reason that I was hooked much earlier in it than I was with this version of chapter 1.  I can understand why the changes based on the other comments about the previous version of chapter 1: character motivation and getting to know Midius better, however this chapter felt forced and there are a couple of times where I feel like I'm being told stuff:

"He had left behind an inferior successor in Midius."

"The corpse didn’t respond, of course."

"Again, no response from the corpse.  That was one of the more frustrating things about them."

"This was no regular corpse.  It was the corpse of, perhaps, the greatest man who had ever lived.  And he had died, virtually forgotten and alone, in the middle of the fain forest. "

I do like the whole talking with the corpse thing, and it appears you are trying to show us more of Midius' motivations, however if feels awkward. I really had to force myself to read through the chapter and not skim it. For what it's worth, my suggestion would be to take some of the above and show me with dialog instead.

Anyway, that's my two cents.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: EUOL on March 11, 2007, 09:00:10 AM
Thanks for the comments, folks.  A new version has been uploaded, mostly making minor tweaks as suggested by db.  Some good points, and the prose needed streamlining. 

Dawn:
For some reason, this just feels less brutal to me.  Theusa's language is softer than Theus's had been, and I think more reasonable.  Still brutal, yet somehow it works better for me.  That might just be because I've seen (and written) too many characters that feel like Theus, and changing the character to a female (who's a bit older, and who is arguably the legitimate ruler of the city) makes them feel a lot more exciting to write. 

Gruff, Gritty, Male solder king: Feels overdone.
Gruff, gritty, grandmother king: Not so much.

I know it's more about how well the character is done, and less about whether it's been done before or not.  However, excitement on my part seems to make for a better story over-all.  So, I'm wondering if this character will be more exciting for me this way, or just much more trouble.  (I'll have to think of what to do for the next Theus chapter, for instance.  I really liked the fight there, and I can't really put Theusa in the same role.)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Alankria on March 11, 2007, 12:24:52 PM
Some line-edit stuff for Chapter 1:

"Tendrils of  black poison lay like a network black vines beneath the old man’s skin." -- I don't think you need the "Tendrils of" at the beginning.  Considering the later description, it feels rather redundant, and I think the sentence is stronger without it. 

"He found them to be good listeners." -- This sentence feels too weak.  Also, it's one of three sentences in a row beginning with "He".  I can't think right now of a way to reword, but thought I'd flag it up for you.

"It one  that Midius himself had read time and time again. " -- Need to insert "was" between "It" and "one".

"After all, they sent an assassin after you.” " -- Repetition of "after" in that sentence.  Perhaps say: "After all, they sent an assassin for you.”

Also: near the beginning, when Midius is wondering who will save them now, he thinks You must.  Meaning himself, right?.  But when I originally read that, I thought the body was somehow talking to him.  And if it is just Midus' thought, it feels a little odd for him to refer to himself in the second person.

More generally, I think you have a strong opening chapter with a strong character.  It really drew me in and made me want to read more.  At the moment I can think of any general criticisms, but I'll let you know if any come to mind.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: 42 on March 11, 2007, 04:12:15 PM
I prefer the male version of Theus too. Yes, the language is softer with the female version, but soft language with brutal acts makes it seem all the more cruel (actions speak louder than words, etc...). I've been thinking about it some and I feel that the rationalization for the violence is tenuous which is what makes it so brutal. I want to post more about this later, but I need to do some thinking first.

Also, I liked the first version of chapter one more than the second version. Mostly, it was discussion with the corpse that I disliked. It seemed unnecessarily unsettling. Otherwise there is some imagery in the second version I like better, like the shaving scene.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Tekiel on March 11, 2007, 09:12:17 PM
I liked the rewrite of chapter one.  It makes Midius seem more evil  (he's used to talking with corpses) but also gives him a valid reason for going to Partinel.  The first version made me wonder why he went, but this one is like . . . well, he reminds me of Jean ValJean, who does so much good because of how the priest changed him.

As for the rewrite of chapter 2, I like the thought of a female leader.  She'll be annoyed when Yunmi comes, but probably also a little jealous of her youth and strength.  I look forward to her perspective.  As for how brutal it felt, they seemed the same to me.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Alankria on March 11, 2007, 09:29:17 PM
And some comments for the Chapter 2 posted above:  (and, of course, these are my opinion, feel free to take 'em or leave 'em)

The juxtaposition of "It had been twenty-some years" and not much later "by a rough stone wall reaching some fifteen feet high" is a little too repetitive.  I think the 'some' works better in the first instance, and suggest dropping the latter one.  Chances are, as king, she knows the height, so it's not unrealistic to drop the estimative tone to that part of the narration. 

"Didarion been a short time later." -- Missing a word here, I think.

"They grew right up to the edge of the city wall in a full circle around the city." -- Repetition of 'city'.  You could drop either, but my inclination would be to say: "They grew right up to the edge of the city in a full circle around it/the wall."

"Bone white trees, with colorless undergrowth twisting and creeping around the trunks."  -- Could be personal preference, but I would drop the 'with'.  Gives the sentence a more fragmentary feel, which in this instance works. 

"the outsider got halfway through the word before Jend unsheathed his bronze gladius and rammed it into the stomach of the kneeling outsider woman."  -- You need a capital 'T' at the beginning of this.  Also, the word 'got' doesn't flow as well as the rest of the sentence.  Perhaps reword it to: "The outsider managed half the word before....[rest of sentence]"

"The guards held him firmly as Jend pulled the sword free, then he cut at the woman’s neck.  The weapon got lodged in the vertebrae, and it took him three hacks to get the head free." -- A few more flow issues here.  I suggest a handful of small changes: "The guards held him firmly as Jend pulled the sword free and cut at the woman’s neck.  The weapon lodged in the vertebrae, and it took him three hacks to get the head free."

"wherever you’ve left them--and kill them.” -- Repetitiveness of two clauses ending in 'them'.  How about adding 'too' to the end of it, making "--and kill them too."

"The outsider hissed curses at her." -- I think he's more likely to be spitting curses at her.  Hissing sounds a little too passive, too resigned, in my opinion.

"Then, she stood, leaving the screaming peasant behind to yell himself ragged." -- I suggest dropping the word 'screaming', both because you used 'scream' a few paragraphs back and because you say 'yell' later in the sentence, so it's clear that he's being loudly vocal.

More generally, my only criticism is that the opening part of this chapter is a little too infodumpy.  I think you can lose the part about her father-in-law and husband, and perhaps trim the other royal-background stuff.  It's not necessary for readers to understand this chapter, and so soon in the book is a bad place for un-necessary infodumping.   However, the info about the fainlands is good, and can stay as it is. 

Looks like I'll be going against what the others here have said by saying that I like Theusa as a woman.  Granted, I didn't read the version where she was a man, so this is my opinion coming fresh to the story.  But she works.  I'm already very interested in her -- looks like you've a set a strong character here already. 

I'm pretty immune to fictional brutality so that scene didn't make me bat an eyelid, as the saying goes.  Critically speaking, you didn't overplay it; it worked well, for what it is. 

Also, a point about Chapter 1, and again I'm going against the grain by saying that I liked Midius talking to the dead guy.  Perhaps tone it down a little as someone suggested, though to be honest it worked fine for me. 

And now I want to read more!  You've got the start to a good book here. 
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: dawncawley on March 12, 2007, 12:07:09 AM
EUOL- I think it could work with Theusa vs. Theus, but having read the first part it took me a minute to move past the changes. As I re-read it today I found myself wondering more about her and the way she would deal with Midius, the other diplomats and, of course, the young, vigorous Yunmi.

So, since I did say in my previous post that I just might need some time and a fresh look at it, that is what I took away the second time. I still think the brutality is high level, and seems more so from a female, but I think that it may work for you very well later in the book.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Kadmiel on March 12, 2007, 12:19:48 AM
I really like the female version of Theus better than the male version, even though Theusa would be more limited as to fighting scenes.  The balance between the "goodness" and "cruelty" of the harsh methods used to ensure the survival of Partinel's people seem more believable this way.  With the male Theus, he could compartmentalize his care for his citizens and cruelty for outsiders.  With Theusa as a woman, a desire to protect her citizens at all costs and by all methods makes more sense.   

One thing that bothers me, though, is that the names "Theus/Theusa" make me think of "Zeus."
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: fuzzyoctopus on March 12, 2007, 10:23:03 PM
Twelve other unpublished novels, U-boat.  Mistborn was my fourteenth book, Elantris my sixth.  One, named Dragonsteel, was my seventh and a number of the people on my forums knew me when I started writing it.  It was, in a way, the book that 'made me famous' among my group of friends.  So, many of them are excited to hear that I'm reworking the setting and planning to do the book for the big leagues. 


The following is a complete Brandon Sanderson Bibliography, published and unpublished. 

I just want to say that I'm a personal fan of Sixth incarnation of Pandora, and wonder if I still have a copy on my dead laptop somewhere. And that the promise of Dragonsteel was enough to get me out of lurkdom.  Well done.

I'll give it a read and see what I come up with.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: fuzzyoctopus on March 13, 2007, 12:33:11 AM
Ok, the only thing that stands out to me that I didn't see mentioned is that I dislike "The Bear of Partinel", which I kept reading as "Bearer".  I think it's because my brain believes it should be a two syllable title. Also, I don't see bears as as savage as Theus is painted.   Lion of Partinel would sound better to me, but maybe you feel that's overdone.  Savage of Partinel.  Giant of Partinel.  Bears are fuzzy, and don't tend to kill so indiscrimiately.

Don't like him as a woman.  I like the harsh brutality of Theus juxtaposed with bubbly Yunmi, or whatever her name is. 

Do they keep a census?  Does Theus know how many people are in his city with the strict pop control? It would help me visualize the city better if I knew how many people were in it.  Is it over-crowded at 10,000 people or over-crowded at 50,000 people?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: DavidB on March 13, 2007, 03:44:59 AM
The new chapter one does certainly seem more consistent with how Midius's character and abilities are portrayed in the rest of the sample chapters you posted. But I think that this chapter could be a lot better. My complaint, basically, is that I don't think this chapter one is a very good hook: there's not much action in it, and I don't really like or sympathize with Midius at the end (though I don't dislike him, either).

Midius just seems awfully impersonal in this chapter. For example, he describes Hoid as the greatest man who had ever lived, and not as, say my best, only friend. His reasons for going to Partinel seem similarly impersonal and general -- and therefore weak. (Midius thinks Hoid thinks it's important -- but not urgent, obviously, since he can afford to spend his time just sitting in his cabin and staring at old scrolls -- to find some kind of secret to save Partinel...and so Midius suddenly decides to go dashing off to the city, putting his life at risk, to, uh, poke around randomly? Huh?)

It might work better, for example, to have Midius go to Partinel to find out who had Hoid killed, and why. He could then be given to understand that Theus(a) thought that Hoid knew how to help save the city, but was refusing to do so; Midius might then agree to try to save the city just to get himself out of prison (but he'd be troubled by trying to understand why Hoid didn't save the city -- or is Theus lying?). In the long run, though I think it would be important to make Midius more human by giving him something that he cares passionately and personally about.

Some off-the-cuff ideas about how this scene could play out to give it more action:

In the second case, of course, either Theus's chapter would come first, or else the existing chapters would have to be broken up somewhat. The most straightforward thing to do, of course, would be to have chapter three be only about Midius's conversation with the cooper.

Also, it occurs to me that if the fain forest is poisonous, the pollen and dust there ought to be at least mildly toxic. It might make more sense -- and provide a nice visual image -- if everyone who went into the fain forest for any length of time had to wear some kind of breath mask. Just a scarf wrapped around your head would do, but people who spent a lot of time in the forest might have something more elaborate.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: EUOL on March 13, 2007, 04:08:50 AM
DavidB

There are, unfortunately, reasons why I have to start the book where I did.  I can't get into it without major spoilers.  You are perfectly right about this chapter lacking a hook, which is why I decided from the get-go that I'd need to start with a scene from the middle of the book, then jump back. 

So, this chapter should be considered the SECOND, and not the one that introduces Midius's character. 

My goal is to try some new things with this book.  Who knows if it will work, but they will present narrative challenges for me, because even when we flash back, we're starting in the middle of a story, with Hoid already dead.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: DavidB on March 13, 2007, 04:13:18 AM
Regarding Theus's gender-switch....

On balance, I think I don't really like it. It seems to me that there are things you could do with tough-guy Theus that just don't work with old-lady Theusa. The sword-fighting scene is an obvious example. Making Theus male provides maximum contrast between him and Yunmi, the story's other aetherlin. It also allows him to underestimate Yunmi because she's a girl. (Obviously, there is no gender equality in Partinel society if the distinguishing characteristic of a warrior involves beards.) Also, Theus could have a scene with his wife, which would reveal a lot about his character, while Theusa's husband is dead.

I agree with 42 (if s/he's talking about what I think s/he is) about "the rationalization for the violence [being] tenuous": Theus's (and Theusa's) attitude towards their citizens reminds me of those parents who think that they should beat and/or neglect their children "for their own good". One reason I was interested in seeing Theus's wife was because I wanted to see if he also held this attitude in his own family. (Or is it just the "unwashed masses" that he has no faith in? Or is he using this "for their own good" thing as an excuse to be brutal and tyrannical, a la Stalin/Robespierre?)

On the other hand, I was half expecting Theus's wife to be a Lady Macbeth-esque  dragon who pushes her husband into greater acts of brutality and violence.

Of course, if you find Theusa easier to get into and write for than Theus, then by all means, ignore us and keep the gender-switch! (Though if you do, consider a name change. I'm not really sure how to pronounce "Theusa", and it seems kind of awkward for some reason; something like "Tessa" might be better.)

Oh yeah -- also, the custom for warriors to shave their beards seems kind of weird. If people are used to most men wearing beards, then from a distance, a warrior would look like a woman or child!
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: DavidB on March 13, 2007, 05:17:42 AM
There are, unfortunately, reasons why I have to start the book where I did.  I can't get into it without major spoilers.  You are perfectly right about this chapter lacking a hook, which is why I decided from the get-go that I'd need to start with a scene from the middle of the book, then jump back. 

So, this chapter should be considered the SECOND, and not the one that introduces Midius's character. 

Oh yeah! I forgot about that. Sorry.

Um...I'm not really sure what to say about chapter one, if we're supposed to already know and care about Midius's character before that chapter. I had actually kind of assumed that the main reason for this chapter to exist was that you wanted to get Midius's character into the reader's mind before Theus's. If it serves any other purpose that can't be accomplished later, I don't see what it could be...which, I suppose, you may take to mean that the clues you've planted in this chapter have been hidden well.

I do still stand by my comments about Midius and his motivations seeming impersonal.



EDIT: Come to think of it, you mentioned that you intended to start the story with a scene where Theus is about to execute Midius. Do you mean the scene from chapter four, or a later scene? If the chapter four scene (and assuming you cut if off where Theus says "kill him"), it doesn't really tell us much of anything about Midius except that his master is dead -- so this chapter really is our introduction to Midius's character.

If it's a later scene, on the other hand, you'd be taking much of the tension out of the chapter four scene because we'd know Theus can't kill Midius then. (This is why, in general, I don't really like the technique of starting with a chapter from the middle of the book: basically, everything that happens until you "catch up" with the chapter you started with is like a gigantic flashback, so it's harder to create surprise or tension. Then again, I've read essays by writers who love that technique so much they use it in every book they write.)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 13, 2007, 06:39:56 AM
The new version of chapter 1 has too much tell, not enough show for me. It's hard to convey information interestingly in a monologue.

Is there a reason not to have Hoid breathe his last in the first sentence? That might provide a bit more hook. Midius could be more emotional.

As for Theusa...I'm not sure about the specifics, but I've got to say I really like the idea of a Brandon book (besides Alcatraz) with a female antagonist. It's not something I've seen before, so I want to see what you can do with it. Your female characters aren't all the same, but they've got a lot of common elements, and this one could be very different. (Closest perhaps to Karata...) If you can have the character female and still pull off what you need to do, I say do it. Of course, her character would have to be something other than a man in a skirt.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: EUOL on March 13, 2007, 07:47:46 AM
I'll admit, I'm really torn on this one.  I can't quite decide which way to go.  The thing is, I've been thinking about the characters so much that they're both--Theus and Theusa--now formed in my head.  I know their motivations and their feelings, but I can only use one of them.

With Theus I gain the ability to have he, himself fight.  I can show him with his family, which could really round out his character.  Yet, I worry that he's too similar to other characters I've written.  (Cett and Straff both come to mind from the Mistborn trilogy, though neither of them are as rounded, as well as Iadon from Elantris.  I've done a lot of brutal rulers.) 

With Thesua, I lose the two things I mentioned above.  I couldn't soften her by showing a spouse and children, and while she'd still have a daughter, I don't see the child being as much of an influence on reader opinion.  And, there would be less action in the book by a slight amount as Theusa will not be a warrior, and will have to rely on Jend to do her combat. 

However, I gain a tad of originality.  (How many tyrant grandmother city-state rulers are there in fiction?  Have to be fewer than men like Theus.)  I also gain some subtlety--Theusa's rule would be much more tenuous, because of her gender, and there would be a lot of politics working against her. 

Both would play off of Yunmi very well, if for different reasons.  Midius's interactions lean slightly toward me liking Theus, but not a huge amount. 

I keep going back and forth on this one.  So, I'll put off the decision until tomorrow and write a Yunmi chapter instead.  Huzzah!
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Spriggan on March 13, 2007, 08:25:41 AM
Just make them Twins or pull a Ranma, how many rulers in fantasy change into a female when hit with cold water?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 13, 2007, 08:50:12 AM
Oh, I was going to mention in response to fuzzyoctopus, but forgot—

Bears used to be extremely frightening, and that's why there are so many fairy tales involving them. They were so frightening in northern Europe that the word for bear became taboo to say, and they were only named by their brown color—Bruin. Dragonsteel takes place in a Bronze age culture, and bears being frightening seems only natural.

Except...where do bears live? If the wilderness is all fain, and the trune rings are all inhabited, that seems a very difficult situation for bears to survive in.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: fuzzyoctopus on March 13, 2007, 05:57:35 PM
That's legitimate, but how many of your readership is going to associate that with bears?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Spriggan on March 13, 2007, 06:11:49 PM
Steven Colbert for one...I would post a hilarious video but Viacom just sued Youtube so all that content is gone and Comedycentral's video site won't load due to what I would guess is a DNS attack by internet kiddies mad at the lawsuite.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: EUOL on March 13, 2007, 09:24:28 PM
After much playing with the plot and wrangling, I've decided to go with the male version of the character.  The new Midius chapter is here to stay, however. 

I'll just have to do the old grandma tyrant king in some other book. 
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 20, 2007, 10:05:46 PM
Regarding today's news, I hope you can find the motivation soon. Is there any particular difficulty you're dealing with? I may have just not been aware in the past, but the only time I've seen you really have problems writing was with Mythwalker--and it seems a little early for that reason to crop up.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: EUOL on March 21, 2007, 01:05:09 AM
Ookla,

I had similar trouble with DARK ONE, which I tried to write last year and had to give up on.  The problem isn't the story, but the lack of momentum.  Before, during the years when I was unpublished, I could always work on what I wanted when I wanted.  Now, I keep getting interrupted by edits and revisions, and that throws me off my beat for a novel.  If I push on Dragonsteel a little bit, I think it will pick up again.

Just to be sure, I'll be sending you some chapters here pretty soon, if you're willing.  You can let me know if there's a decided lack of quality in these new ones, or if it's simply the fact that I have to get motivated on this story again.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 21, 2007, 03:44:53 AM
I am interested in reading whatever you send.

I'd been wondering what had happened to Dark One. How far did that get, and will it ever again rear its head?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: firstRainbowRose on March 23, 2007, 02:14:24 AM
I don't know if I'm too late to sound in on the male/female fight, but I think female is better, not only for originally, but also because I think the people would respect her more, as well as fear her.  With the male, the people would hate him as well as fear him.  Who cares if he kills his own kids?  With a woman, and still killing her own children, it's a lot more powerful.

I like the new chapter since it explains his modivation for going into the city a bit more, but at the same time I liked the fact that you get to know his character (i.e. - the fact that he hates telling stories, although we don't know why.)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: DataPath on January 07, 2010, 09:13:58 PM
Sorry about the epic thread necromancy, but one aspect of the original chapter 1 that I really liked what the introduction of this theme:

Quote
If a man believes a lie, it is rarely because of stupidity. It is because of hope.

I feel like it sets up the title of "Liar" quite nicely and sets the tone for the mantle that Midius is taking on.

Also, calling a Lightweaver a "jesk" calls to mind the "Jeskeri". I don't know if this connection is intentional or not.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on January 07, 2010, 10:02:13 PM
Ok I'm going to be an ass. What the hell is wrong with you? Do you want the whole site to laugh at you for being a moron? You do NOT rez threads from 3 years ago! What a joke....
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Miyabi on January 07, 2010, 10:06:30 PM

It's OK to rez a thread as long as there is something said that can cause discussion to spark.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Link von Kelsier Harvey XXIV on January 07, 2010, 11:16:36 PM
Wow, the forums must have been a different place when this thread was active.  EUOL posting unpublished stuff right on the sight for people to peruse and comment on.  That was probably back in the day when most of the people here knew him personally.  The addition of the more general fanbase is probably why we don't have threads like this anymore.  Or I'm completely wrong!
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 08, 2010, 12:34:47 AM
Most of the people on the first page know Brandon personally.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Mellington the loony Gold Misting on January 08, 2010, 01:59:40 AM
This sort of makes me wish I'd come here and bothered myself to register when I first read the books - I love getting inside the rationale and the process.
I fail at creation myself but watching it in progress is incomparably beautiful.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Link von Kelsier Harvey XXIV on January 08, 2010, 06:29:55 AM
Woah, I just went back and looked at the first page out of curiosity.  I didn't know you wrote, Peter.  Any chance of you getting published one day?  Or maybe you're already published and I missed it. ;)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 08, 2010, 05:55:28 PM
I rewrite Japanese books translated into Englishinto better English. The book I was referring to was probably this one: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1427801126/ (or the one that came before that). But I mostly do manga. And I do some copyeditingI have done four Forgotten Realms novels. I'll be doing a lot with Brandon's future books.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Link von Kelsier Harvey XXIV on January 08, 2010, 07:03:28 PM
My idea of who you are as a person has shifted drastically.  You just got about three times more awesome.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Creative_Vortx on January 08, 2010, 07:12:02 PM
I rewrite Japanese books translated into Englishinto better English. The book I was referring to was probably this one: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1427801126/ (or the one that came before that). But I mostly do manga. And I do some copyeditingI have done four Forgotten Realms novels. I'll be doing a lot with Brandon's future books.

OT but: .hack//SIGN was one of my all time favorite animes when I was younger.

Good to know you have job security huh Peter? Just don't piss off BS and you're good. Heh
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 08, 2010, 09:56:49 PM
I worked at TOKYOPOP for four years and currently do (freelance) all the .hack manga rewrites (among others). I didn't do more than those two novel rewrites because it's a lot of hours and pays poorly.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Mellington the loony Gold Misting on January 08, 2010, 10:01:45 PM
I rewrite Japanese books translated into Englishinto better English.

I kind of gathered from your Twitter - I'm a deranged foreign media junkie by the way (but I can only read Latin derived languages so I'm dependent on awesome people like you for my comprehension of anything).
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 08, 2010, 10:10:13 PM
Neh, Peter, when does the next Dazzle come out?  That's a dang freaking good series!
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 09, 2010, 02:26:45 AM
It was supposed to come out this month but has apparently been delayed...
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 09, 2010, 03:11:07 AM
Suck!  I'll just keep an eye out then.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: guessingo on January 12, 2010, 04:48:09 AM
how did brandon have time to write all of these books before being a full time author? We all have to work. Did he just come home from work and this is all he did?

did he write books and then mail them to publishers? why was his 6th book elantris his first book published?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 12, 2010, 06:22:58 AM
Guessingo, read this article: http://www.brandonsanderson.com/article/55/EUOLogy-My-History-as-a-Writer
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: guessingo on January 12, 2010, 03:04:15 PM
Peter: Are you brandons assistant or are you a writer also? There is someone named Dan I think. Is he a writer also?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 12, 2010, 06:04:58 PM
I'm Brandon's assistant. I have done some writing, but I mostly do editorial work (and rewriting for manga). Dan is another of Brandon's friends who is a writer, and he has three horror novels coming out. His website is http://fearfulsymmetry.net . Brandon, Dan, and Howard Tayler ( http://schlockmercenary.com ) have a writing advice podcast called Writing Excuses at http://writingexcuses.com .
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: guessingo on January 12, 2010, 06:20:14 PM
What do writer's assistants do? Just curious. Do you do work similiar to what Maria does for the Jordan estate and help keep track of notes for world building and consistancy? do you edit his work? My understanding that being a writer is like running a small business.

I am just curious how this all works. Most writers don't discuss this kind of thing. I have seen others (like George RR Martin) mention their assistants.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 12, 2010, 06:27:34 PM
I have not done a lot of the continuity checking yet (except for Alcatraz 4), but will be doing a lot of that with Way of Kings. I do a lot of stuff with Brandon's website, and I also approve/reject copyediting changes and do a copyediting pass of my own. Different authors' assistants do various things, but only authors making a bunch of money can afford to have an assistant. And at this point Brandon is making a lot of money writing, so his time is worth more writing than it is doing all the stuff I do.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Korwin on January 12, 2010, 09:16:07 PM
For a limited time, here's a link to download the initial draft of Dragonsteel: The Liar of Partinel.

[snip]

Dragonsteel Sample Chapters (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/LiarPt12.doc)

Don't know if that limited time got changed to long time, but I just downloaded it...
...to read or not to read...

(My Word cant open it, but if I change the extension to txt, I can open it)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Mellington the loony Gold Misting on January 12, 2010, 11:53:32 PM
With a long book series set in a universe that has a larger continuity of its own (and is going to span more books than anyone but Brandon knows at this point)...you're going to be a VERY busy man after SLA starts coming out...or whatever else he's got in the hopper.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: zas678 on January 13, 2010, 12:10:59 AM
With a long book series set in a universe that has a larger continuity of its own (and is going to span more books than anyone but Brandon knows at this point)...you're going to be a VERY busy man after SLA starts coming out...or whatever else he's got in the hopper.

I believe I heard him say... 42? books? Or something like that. I don't remember how many Andonalsium books he said he would have.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Mellington the loony Gold Misting on January 13, 2010, 12:21:45 AM
Who knows if he'll come up with more plot arcs and worlds before he's done with the ones he has planned? I'm not calling a number...far too early. When he says it's done, it's done...and maybe not even then (he might change his mind).

EDIT:  You should know that I appreciate the HHG reference though!
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Miyabi on January 13, 2010, 09:52:57 AM
With a long book series set in a universe that has a larger continuity of its own (and is going to span more books than anyone but Brandon knows at this point)...you're going to be a VERY busy man after SLA starts coming out...or whatever else he's got in the hopper.

I believe I heard him say... 42? books? Or something like that. I don't remember how many Andonalsium books he said he would have.

This is the list of books future/present I have.

1)White Sand Prime
2) Star's End
3) Lord Mastrell
4) Knight Life
5) The Sixth Incarnation of Pandora
6) Elantris
7) Dragonsteel
8 ) White Sand
9) Mythwalker
10) Mistborn Prime
11) Final Empire Prime
12) The Aether of Night
13) Stormlight Archive : The Way of Kings
14) Mistborn 1 : The Final Empire
15) Mistborn 1 : The Well of Ascension
16) Alcatraz vs. The Evil Librarians
17) Mistborn 1 : The Hero of Ages
18) Warbreaker
19) Alcatraz vs. The Scrivener's Bones
20) Dragonsteel: The Liar of Partinel
21) Alcatraz vs. The Knights of Crystallia
22) Nightblood Warbreaker Sequel
23) Dragonsteel: The Lightweaver of Rens
24) Alcatraz vs. The Dark Talent
25)Scribbler
26)The Gathering Storm
27)Towers of Midnight

NOT YET WRITTEN

28)Scribbler 2
29)Scribbler 3

30)Alcatraz 5

31)Stormlight Archives 2
32)Stormlight Archives 3
33)Stormlight Archives 4
34)Stormlight Archives 5
35)Stormlight Archives 6
36)Stormlight Archives 7
37)Stormlight Archives 8
38)Stormlight Archives 9
39)Stormlight Archives 10

40)Dragonsteel 4
41)Dragonsteel 5
42)Dragonsteel 6
43)Dragonsteel 7

44)Elantris Sequel

45)Mistborn 2 :: 1
46)Mistborn 2 :: 2
46)Mistborn 2 :: 3

47)Mistborn 3 :: 1
48)Mistborn 3 :: 2
49)Mistborn 3 :: 3

50)Dark One

51)The Silence Divine
52)Steelheart
53)I Hate Dragons Maybe Alcatraz(universe) book
54)Zeek Harbinger, Destroyer of Worlds Maybe Alcatraz(universe) book

A Memory of Light :: (Split into three because of length)
   55)A Memory of Light

Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 13, 2010, 07:31:49 PM
#7 should be Dragonsteel Prime. #9 should say (Unfinished) after it. #13 is Way of Kings Prime. Also, Nightblood and Lightweaver of Rens are not yet written. #24 is Alcatraz vs. the Shattered Lens. Stormlight Archive (no s) 1: Way of Kings should go before Towers of Midnight. And at MileHiCon Brandon read the beginning of a YA book that is not on your list. And one of the series you have listed has another planned book in it.

There should probably be an indication of which books are Adonalsiumverse canon (past unpublished books would not be canon, but future unpublished books would be). Both White Sand and Liar of Partinel will receive major revisions eventually. Also, there would be several sequels to White Sand. You may also want to indicate which books have been cannibalized (the prime books, Lord Mastrell, Mythwalker, Aether of Night).
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 13, 2010, 10:54:25 PM
Wait, SEVERAL sequels to white sand?  Really?  Please?!  That one has to be my favorite.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Miyabi on January 13, 2010, 11:07:08 PM

I actually have most of those things indicated on my text file, but colors/bold/italics/underline didn't copy paste and I was like Grr, I don't want to list all of that.  Though I might make a thread eventually with it.

Thanks for all the notes. I will make the changes to my primary list.  Which series has another planned book?  Please say it's Scribbler. xD
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 14, 2010, 02:47:45 AM
I can't say because it's a secret even within the series itself.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Miyabi on January 14, 2010, 02:59:33 AM

And the traditional torture of the Ookla has returned. =]
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Ari54 on January 14, 2010, 03:31:36 AM
Edit: Wow, I missed an entire page of posts. Hate it when I do that. :D
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Mellington the loony Gold Misting on January 14, 2010, 04:23:04 AM
Now it's my turn to be tortured because
1. I haven't had a chance to read the unpublished works
2. I have to wait how many years to read all of these in completeness?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: zas678 on January 14, 2010, 09:28:09 AM
By count about 16-20 years if you say he does about 2 books a year (which has been his incredible pace so far)

So just looking at Andonalsium books.....

1)White Sand Prime
2) Star's End
3) Lord Mastrell
4) Knight Life
5) The Sixth Incarnation of Pandora
6) Elantris
7) Dragonsteel Prime
8 ) White Sand
9) Mythwalker
10) Stormlight Archive : The Way of Kings
11) Mistborn 1 : The Final Empire
12) Mistborn 1 : The Well of Ascension
13) Mistborn 1 : The Hero of Ages
14) Warbreaker
15) Dragonsteel: The Liar of Partinel
16) Nightblood Warbreaker Sequel
17) Dragonsteel: The Lightweaver of Rens
18)Stormlight Archives 2
19)Stormlight Archives 3
20)Stormlight Archives 4
21)Stormlight Archives 5
22)Stormlight Archives 6
23)Stormlight Archives 7
24)Stormlight Archives 8
25)Stormlight Archives 9
26)Stormlight Archives 10

27)Dragonsteel 4
28)Dragonsteel 5
29)Dragonsteel 6
30)Dragonsteel 7

31)Elantris Sequel

32)Mistborn 2 :: 1
33)Mistborn 2 :: 2
34)Mistborn 2 :: 3

35)Mistborn 3 :: 1
36)Mistborn 3 :: 2
37)Mistborn 3 :: 3


38)The Silence Divine

39) Mystery Book Who knows? It could be Hoid's Diary. Wait- Too late! It's already on Twitter  ;)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Miyabi on January 14, 2010, 09:43:23 AM

Not all of those are necessarily canon for Adonalsiumverse though because they are not yet published.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 14, 2010, 05:44:58 PM
2) Star's End
4) Knight Life
5) The Sixth Incarnation of Pandora

2 and 5 are not shard worlds (they're Earth-future science fiction), and I doubt 4 is a shard world (it's pure comedy).

Also, Aether of Night and the two Mistborn Prime books are set in (non-canon) shard worlds. And Lord Mastrell is basically just part 2 of White Sand Prime.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Creative_Vortx on January 14, 2010, 09:10:42 PM
I'm being blown away by the prospect of all these being on my bookshelf. :drool:

One question: What does canon refer to?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on January 14, 2010, 09:50:33 PM
Well the canon commonly applies to the protestant/ catholic bible... w/o the Apocrypha of course. The use in this context means more or less set in stone.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Creative_Vortx on January 14, 2010, 10:18:46 PM
Well the canon commonly applies to the protestant/ catholic bible... w/o the Apocrypha of course. The use in this context means more or less set in stone.

Awesome, that makes a lot more sense now.  :D
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Miyabi on January 14, 2010, 10:43:08 PM

Canon - material that is considered to be "genuine", "something that actually happened", or can be directly referenced as material produced by the original author or creator.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 14, 2010, 10:43:23 PM
As far as Brandon's universes go, nothing is canon until it's been published, after which very few changes can be made to it. Before then, Brandon is free to change anything he sees fit to change, so you can't assume that anything you read in an unpublished book will stick around.

For people who have read Dragonsteel and know how integral certain bits of that book appeared to its plot, Way of Kings is going to be a pretty big shock. Though it should also be obvious how much Brandon has grown as a writer in the last 9 years. When I read Dragonsteel back then I thought it was pretty awesome. Now reading Way of Kings, the Brandon of back then can't hold a candle to today's Brandon.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Miyabi on January 14, 2010, 10:46:35 PM
For people who have read DRAGONSTEEL and know how integral certain bits of that book appeared to its plot, WAY OF KINGS is going to be a pretty big shock.

Does it like, contradict things from Dragonsteel?  That's be pretty interesting.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Creative_Vortx on January 14, 2010, 11:29:00 PM
For people who have read DRAGONSTEEL and know how integral certain bits of that book appeared to its plot, WAY OF KINGS is going to be a pretty big shock.

Does it like, contradict things from Dragonsteel? That's be pretty interesting.


I'm kind of glad that Dragonsteel doesn't have a digital copy floating around the forums. I feel like it could seriously spoil things to come through Way of Kings. It amazes me that even though multiple people have gotten their hands on it, they haven't created a digital copy out of it. BS has good fans. :P
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Link von Kelsier Harvey XXIV on January 15, 2010, 01:34:06 AM
Either that or we're all scared of Peter.  I speculated about Hoid's place in Dragonsteel (not to mention my first signature), and Peter jumped me!  He didn't say anything scary per se, but it sure scared me at the time.  I felt like a complete moron/loser for hours.  In hindsight, I was acting pretty foolishly.  But no more! :-X
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Mellington the loony Gold Misting on January 15, 2010, 01:57:01 AM
I know plenty of us are fanatical enough to create digital copies if the work isn't available for purchase (I've avoided this to date - all of mine are kosher) or quote indices (guilty on the latter - makes it easy to flip through his entire works to date which I keep within arm's reach) for quick reference but I know all of us are respectful enough to keep them on our own PCs and limit them to personal use.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Miyabi on January 15, 2010, 02:33:56 AM

I used to have a digi copy. I still have parts of Liar. But he stopped sending out digi copies of dragonsteel because of the Way of Kings spoilers in it.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: guessingo on January 15, 2010, 03:36:38 AM
A few questions.

1. What is "Adonalsiumverse canon" ? I don't know Brandon. I found him since he is writing WoT and I am reading Mistborn. I am still on the first book.

2. So the 10 book way of kings series is partially a canabalization of an unpublished book called Dragonsteel that his friends all liked?

3. How many hours/week does brandon spend writing? It sounds like he writes alot...

I think Brandon wrote in that forum interview peter pointed too that he expects 3 books every 2 years. That is alot. Keeping quality up at that pace is really tough. Stuff may get generic. Anyone here ever read Harry Turtledove? He writes alternative history. I have probably read about 10 books by him (many are VERY good such as Guns of the South), but got tired of him since his books got formulaic and generic.

4. Peter: did you know Brandon in real life and that is how you got hired?

5. Will Brandon post on these forums anymore ? I understand he is busy.

6. Brandon plans to release Way of Kings and the next WoT book this year right? How often does he plan to release Way of King books? Is this going to be a 20+ year series like WoT? (that is ok. I am not kid and I am patient).

Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on January 15, 2010, 03:48:53 AM
WoT is the priority right now... WoK is being revised while WoT is being written. This is apparently much easier than writing 2 books at once. He spends a significant amount of time writing (i've heard 14 hours a day but who knows) and i would be very dissapointed and surprised to see him become generic... his books so far do not follow the same lines as the people he studied i.e. Robert Jordan.

Edit: the time span between books for RJ was only exusable do to the fact that they were, in my opinion, that damn good, and also he was busy fighting an illness. W/o the illness (yeah i'm a newcomer to the series in late 2005) the gaps are still somewhat inexusable, you shouldn't have to reread a series b/c the last book came out 3 years ago, repeatedly.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Miyabi on January 15, 2010, 04:34:26 AM
A few questions.

1. What is "Adonalsiumverse canon" ? I don't know Brandon. I found him since he is writing WoT and I am reading Mistborn. I am still on the first book.

2. So the 10 book way of kings series is partially a canabalization of an unpublished book called Dragonsteel that his friends all liked?

3. How many hours/week does brandon spend writing? It sounds like he writes alot...

I think Brandon wrote in that forum interview peter pointed too that he expects 3 books every 2 years. That is alot. Keeping quality up at that pace is really tough. Stuff may get generic. Anyone here ever read Harry Turtledove? He writes alternative history. I have probably read about 10 books by him (many are VERY good such as Guns of the South), but got tired of him since his books got formulaic and generic.

4. Peter: did you know Brandon in real life and that is how you got hired?

5. Will Brandon post on these forums anymore ? I understand he is busy.

6. Brandon plans to release Way of Kings and the next WoT book this year right? How often does he plan to release Way of King books? Is this going to be a 20+ year series like WoT? (that is ok. I am not kid and I am patient).




Welcome to the forums. =]

1 - Adonalsiumverse is the universe in which books that take place where Shards of Adonalsium are found. The Shards seem to have strange affects on the worlds. Currently we know (canon) of Sel (Where Elantris takes place, Roshar (Where WoK will take place), Nalthis (Warbreaker), and Scadriel (Where Mistborn takes place). There will be more and there are some unpublished that take place in Shard Worlds, but those aren't technically canon since they aren't yet published. He also does right books i.e. Alcatraz that do not take place on Shard Worlds.

2 - As far as I know only it's not that the book was cannibalized, but there are portions of it that were. There is plan in the future for Dragonsteel to be its own series.

3/4 - Wait for Peter's response.

5 - I talked to him about this once and he says he stays away from the forums mainly because he would struggle to keep himself from giving away too much. =] He does occasionally (i.e. the Hero of Ages Q&A) spend short spurts on the forum though.

6 - The current pattern is 2 adult fiction novels a year and 1 YA novel a year. As far as I'm aware for the next 2 years it will be 1WoK/1WoT and after that 1WoK/1other. The other being whatever he decides to publish or right, probably something from the lists that can be found earlier on this thread.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Morderkaine on January 15, 2010, 04:41:46 AM
Warbreaker is also Adonalsium canon.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Ari54 on January 15, 2010, 04:58:06 AM
Miyabi's done very well with your questions. It's probably worth pointing out that future books in the Stormlight Archive (the series that The Way of Kings is part of) will take much longer to finish than Way of Kings did, as it was already in first or second draft stage when Brandon came to Tor to make a contract for it. :) I'm sure either Peter or Brandon will mention how fast we can expect future books sometime after he starts actually writing the second one. :)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Miyabi on January 15, 2010, 05:05:02 AM

D'oh.  How did I forget Warbreaker?  xD  I fixed post.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Creative_Vortx on January 15, 2010, 06:43:20 PM
Miyabi's done very well with your questions. It's probably worth pointing out that future books in the Stormlight Archive (the series that The Way of Kings is part of) will take much longer to finish than Way of Kings did, as it was already in first or second draft stage when Brandon came to Tor to make a contract for it. :) I'm sure either Peter or Brandon will mention how fast we can expect future books sometime after he starts actually writing the second one. :)

Maybe it'll go faster? Since I'm sure Brandon has already laid out the ground work for all the arcs and back story, character personalities for probably the majority of the series. He has already pointed out that he has speculated it should be 10 books long and how else would he know that without doing a good amount of planning ahead.

NOT TO MENTION! You know Brandon, the way he interweaves the small stuff into his series would mean a lot of notes. Heh  :D
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 15, 2010, 08:14:15 PM
I've known Brandon for ten years. That is part of how I started working for him. I also work in the publishing industryI was at TOKYOPOP for four yearsso I have the experience necessary. Brandon and I also have congruent tastes in books.

Right now it's looking more and more like Towers of Midnight won't come out before March/April 2011. And there will be no other Brandon books coming out in 2011. A Memory of Light will probably be no sooner than October/November 2012, and if Brandon is able to get another Stormlight Archive book out in 2012 it will be a big stretch.

Once the Wheel of Time is finished Brandon hopes to be putting out 3 or 4 adult books in each 2-year period, but at this point I think 4 is less likely. Brandon has been working like a dog for long hours. He spends up to 14 hours per day writing, but he wants to get to where he's spending more like 9 hours a day.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Inkthinker on January 16, 2010, 02:12:28 AM
Anyone who can put out two per year (of good quality) strikes me as being at the top of the game. Butcher has done it, but he just ended his Aleran series so I think he may be cranking it back down to 1/year of the Dresden books. And I've seen Pratchett do it as well, but only on rare occasion.

I'm happy as hell if an author can put out one good book per year. Anything more and I worry about quality.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 16, 2010, 02:38:11 AM
1 - Adonalsiumverse is the universe in which books that take place where Shards of Adonalsium are found.
I found out today that the official name is the Cosmere.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Creative_Vortx on January 16, 2010, 02:50:57 AM
1 - Adonalsiumverse is the universe in which books that take place where Shards of Adonalsium are found.
I found out today that the official name is the Cosmere.

Epicness ensues. Witness the creation of the Cosmere :bows before it:
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Ari54 on January 16, 2010, 02:53:16 AM
I've known Brandon for ten years. That is part of how I started working for him. I also work in the publishing industryI was at TOKYOPOP for four yearsso I have the experience necessary. Brandon and I also have congruent tastes in books.

Right now it's looking more and more like Towers of Midnight won't come out before March/April 2011. And there will be no other Brandon books coming out in 2011. A Memory of Light will probably be no sooner than October/November 2012, and if Brandon is able to get another Stormlight Archive book out in 2012 it will be a big stretch.

Once the Wheel of Time is finished Brandon hopes to be putting out 3 or 4 adult books in each 2-year period, but at this point I think 4 is less likely. Brandon has been working like a dog for long hours. He spends up to 14 hours per day writing, but he wants to get to where he's spending more like 9 hours a day.

That was really quick, thanks Peter! :D
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Mellington the loony Gold Misting on January 16, 2010, 03:06:00 AM
Peter, I could hug you right now.

Thank you for EVERYTHING!
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: melbatoast on January 16, 2010, 03:10:40 AM
1 - Adonalsiumverse is the universe in which books that take place where Shards of Adonalsium are found.
I found out today that the official name is the Cosmere.

 00000 :o
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 16, 2010, 05:13:51 AM
Thank you Ook!  I was trying to freaking remember that word.  I knew it had something similar to "cosmos" but I couldn't remember the exact word.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: libraloco on March 19, 2010, 07:25:26 PM
Both White Sand and Liar of Partinel will receive major revisions eventually.

I know someone will get mad because I'm posting on such an old thread, but is what Peter said true? Will White Sand and the Dragonsteel series eventually be rewritten and published? (And if they do, is it safe to assume this will be after the Stormlight Archives is finished?)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: sortitus on March 19, 2010, 08:02:23 PM
You can assume that anything that Peter says is true unless Brandon directly contradicts it AFTER Peter says it.

I'd be willing to bet that the Stormlight Archive is not going to be released back to back. I expect at least one non SA book between each book in the series.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Link von Kelsier Harvey XXIV on March 19, 2010, 09:12:49 PM
I thought I heard mention of a "Two SA books, one other book, Two more SA books, etc." pattern.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: sortitus on March 19, 2010, 09:27:22 PM
That works too. :)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Creative_Vortx on March 19, 2010, 09:29:26 PM
I thought I heard mention of a "Two SA books, one other book, Two more SA books, etc." pattern.

This is what I recall. Especially in the beginning seeing as there are no plans for another book before the second SA book, according to whats been said in this thread.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 19, 2010, 09:36:05 PM
That is right, but it remains to be seen what happens in practice. Also, this does not include any non-Cosmere books Brandon might write, such as his YA stuff, which could happen whenever he feels like it.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Creative_Vortx on March 19, 2010, 09:43:21 PM
That is right, but it remains to be seen what happens in practice. Also, this does not include any non-Cosmere books Brandon might write, such as his YA stuff, which could happen whenever he feels like it.

Understandable. Does he write his YA when he needs a break from the real stressful stuff? YA seems like an area where he can relax and enjoy the writing process more then he would in other projects.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Shivertongue on March 19, 2010, 10:14:40 PM
You can assume that anything that Peter says is true unless Brandon directly contradicts it AFTER Peter says it.

I'd be willing to bet that the Stormlight Archive is not going to be released back to back. I expect at least one non SA book between each book in the series.

I think either Peter or Brandon has said something along those lines, or at least that's what the plan is. I can't recall exactly what it wa, but I think it was something like 'One Stormlight book, the next Wheel of Time, Two Stormlight books, etc..." That doesn't seem right, so don't quote me on that order.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: libraloco on March 19, 2010, 10:36:23 PM
I had also heard of the two SA, one non-SA, but I wasn't sure if he'd try to do Dragonsteel (7 books, right?) while he's also doing SA. That would seem like a lot.

And when he says two SA, one non-SA, does he mean that there will be one year where there is no SA or does he mean that two books will come out in the same year, with only one of them being SA? So would that mean if he tries to do a trilogy that there will be a one to two year gap in between them?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Link von Kelsier Harvey XXIV on March 20, 2010, 01:24:58 AM
Yeah, he'd probably finish SA before starting on Dragonsteel, or, say, the next Mistborn trilogy.  But I understand that he's got a lot of ideas for standalone novels, including possible sequels for Elantris and Warbreaker.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 20, 2010, 04:38:25 PM
And when he says two SA, one non-SA, does he mean that there will be one year where there is no SA or does he mean that two books will come out in the same year, with only one of them being SA?

Depends on how long the books take to write, but he'd like them in the same year if possible.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: libraloco on March 20, 2010, 07:00:49 PM
And when he says two SA, one non-SA, does he mean that there will be one year where there is no SA or does he mean that two books will come out in the same year, with only one of them being SA?

Depends on how long the books take to write, but he'd like them in the same year if possible.

Wow... There are some authors who can't even write a book a year, but TWO books at the size he writes them is just amazing.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Fireborn on March 20, 2010, 09:45:50 PM
Let me see if I'm understanding this alright: Two books a year, that's a definite, with it being two SA books one year, then an SA and one other book the next year?  Feel free to correct me on this, but that's the idea I'm getting.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Ari54 on March 21, 2010, 01:28:35 AM
And when he says two SA, one non-SA, does he mean that there will be one year where there is no SA or does he mean that two books will come out in the same year, with only one of them being SA?

Depends on how long the books take to write, but he'd like them in the same year if possible.

Wow... There are some authors who can't even write a book a year, but TWO books at the size he writes them is just amazing.

Keep in mind he has drafts at various levels of progress for a lot of his "Cosmere" works. :)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: libraloco on March 21, 2010, 04:00:23 AM
Keep in mind he has drafts at various levels of progress for a lot of his "Cosmere" works.

That makes me excited. :)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 21, 2010, 04:16:00 AM
Let me see if I'm understanding this alright: Two books a year, that's a definite, with it being two SA books one year, then an SA and one other book the next year?  Feel free to correct me on this, but that's the idea I'm getting.

No, that's not right. There will never be more than one SA book per year. Every other year (after the Wheel of Time is done) there may be a non-SA book as well as an SA book, if Brandon writes fast enough. If not, there will be years that have a non-SA book and not an SA book.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: ancientcampus on March 24, 2010, 11:06:56 PM
Thanks, Peter!

Okay, I'm sorry if this has been said anywhere, but I want to make sure:

I know WoT and SA are two huge projects, but is Mr. Sanderson still planning on writing Dragonsteel, eventually?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 24, 2010, 11:27:52 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: atlas689 on August 11, 2010, 08:06:11 PM
Dragonsteel is now the series name, and the first book will be titled "The Liar of Partinel." (Probably.) The book you all read (now tentatively titled "The Eternal War") will be the third or fourth book in the series, and we will wait that long to introduce Jerick, Ryalla, and Bat'Chor. "Liar" will take place some five hundred years before "The Eternal War."

Does "the book you all read" refer to the BYU Dragonsteel book?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: mycoltbug on August 11, 2010, 09:40:18 PM
Yes, the one that has been missing from the library for sometime now. :(
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Link von Kelsier Harvey XXIV on August 12, 2010, 04:53:54 AM
Missing?  I know I returned it.  Just put yourself on the waiting list.  You won't find it on the shelves. Ever.  Of course, by missing, you could also mean that you ARE on the waiting list and it hasn't gotten to your turn yet.  It's probably a really long list.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: mycoltbug on August 12, 2010, 02:10:09 PM
There's no list this time.  It's got a trace on it, and can't be found in the Library.  I've been trying to go check it out for 3 months now.  They keep telling me it's gone but they may find it in the future.  *shrugs*
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Creative_Vortx on August 12, 2010, 05:55:44 PM
Time to print out another copy Brandon! Somebody stole it! :searches the web for it:
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: AllWrong on August 14, 2010, 12:20:16 PM
Any chance EUOL would be willing to sell digital copies of the Dragonsteel that currently exists?  Just a Word document, or a really long email?  I'd be willing to pay for it.  He's become my favorite (active) author, and even at the speed he writes, I still get impatient for more.  I'd LOVE to read Dragonsteel, but BYU is like 20 hours away...
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: atlas689 on August 29, 2010, 01:02:10 AM
Any chance EUOL would be willing to sell digital copies of the Dragonsteel that currently exists? Just a Word document, or a really long email? I'd be willing to pay for it. He's become my favorite (active) author, and even at the speed he writes, I still get impatient for more. I'd LOVE to read Dragonsteel, but BYU is like 20 hours away...

Or that a new copy could be printed so those of us who are on the waiting list can read it?
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Miyabi on August 29, 2010, 03:29:35 AM

Chances are he won't. He doesn't want people to read it because he will one day rewrite it.  Some of it is used in WoK.  Everyone will get to read it eventually.  So even being able to get it from ILL is pretty good.
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: Ari54 on August 31, 2010, 01:27:57 AM
When WoK has been out for a while you Dragonsteel readers are going to have to tell us what it was that got ported over. :)
Title: Re: Dragonsteel
Post by: firstRainbowRose on September 02, 2010, 04:27:42 AM
I can tell you right now.  It's the shattered plains and one of the characters, Rock (I think).  That's about it.  Spoiler free.