Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Writing Group => Topic started by: Archon on November 17, 2004, 08:54:45 PM
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I am curious as to how the rest of you regard swearing in fiction. I have a character at the end of this story that is very VERY angry, and I think it would be appropriate for him to swear. Opinions?
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well, most of us write sf&f where profanity is usually shunned. It quickly pulls the reader out of the story. Which is also why generally including profanity is bad. Course, in modern settings, it might be appropriate. Since I don't write in modern day settings, I don't usually come across this issue.
Course, sf&f writers often create their own profanity words, which can be very interesting. Farscape is a good example, it uses lots of invented words. Course, introducing these words too late in the story can make your style confusing. Again drawing the reader out of the story.
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I don't usually find them required. Sometimes they may fit the story, but I rarely find them the only solution to the needs of the story
So I avoid them. I find them offensive, though I'm really bad about avoiding them in real life. I had bad habits when I was younger and I still have difficulty breaking them. However, in writing, I'm much more controlled, so I almost always leave them out.
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There is also the stigma among some literary folk, that writers who use profanity are not as good as those who don't. There is some truth in that.
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See, that is something that I have never liked. I never believe that because someone swears, they are less capable of expressing themselves, or they are somehow a lesser writer. I see it as using all of the tools that are available to them. Sure if it is used too much then it can be an obvious detraction from the story. But it CAN be an effective coveyor of emotion, and especially anger. If you dont use profanity to express anger, often the anger turns to mention of violence, which many people consider to be worse.
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I don't see minor use of profanity a problem, but avoid it where possible.
So far in my NaNo I've used the "s" word maybe ten times, and it comes off as a kinda minor curse. I would be extremely reluctant to use anything stronger than that, but I freely use words that are semi-offensive but I don't consider swear words, such as "crap", since no one is really offended by them, when use din the right context.
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well, most of us write sf&f where profanity is usually shunned. It quickly pulls the reader out of the story. Which is also why generally including profanity is bad. Course, in modern settings, it might be appropriate. Since I don't write in modern day settings, I don't usually come across this issue.
I actually disagree. Now, I don't generally like profanity, but I think 42's blanket statement does not represent the current market. Nor would it, I think, 'pull the reader out of the story.' I don't care what society you go to, there is going to be a word that is a slang euphemism for human feces. George Martin does not shy from swearing, and he is one of the current best sellers. I have rarely read a current SF book without it including some swearing.
I think you can write the book without the swearing, but the reason to do so is because you choose to avoid it, not because of the genre conventions. My favorite way is to simply say 'He swore.' It gets around the issue while acknowledging how people really act, and you can still convey emotion through other methods. I find this far better than creating fantasy swear words, which I am beginning to think is a silly way of dealing with the issue.
(That is, of course, different when making references to deity or other religious curses. These I think should be world-specific.)
I avoid swearing because I want my book to be accessible to a larger audience, and also because I believe that I should create something that represents my system of values. You have to make your own decision.
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gotta agree with EUOL, just because its Sci-fi or fantasy doesnt mean its likely to be swearless.
I'd apply a simple rule, ask yourself if the character would say it. And then write accordingly.
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Have him do something cooler than just swear. You should have him swear sometime at the first of the story and some other character says like hey you never swear. Then at the end he does again, but it should not just be a curse word but some cool curse that sounds like a movie line, like "When I'm done with you, the maggots in hell will find what's left too disgusting". Then someone at the end says hey you don't curse much, but when you do, you do it right. That would be cooler than him just swearing, esp if he is the hero. Leave the real vulgar stuff for the villians.
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My favorite way is to simply say 'He swore.' It gets around the issue while acknowledging how people really act, and you can still convey emotion through other methods.
That's all well and good until you get into first person. Then what do you say? I swore?
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there's not any real difference between "he swore" and "I swore." it isn't any more or less silly. You don't have to report every word the first-person narrator says exactly anymore than anyone else.
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Then at the end he does again, but it should not just be a curse word but some cool curse that sounds like a movie line, like "When I'm done with you, the maggots in hell will find what's left too disgusting". Then someone at the end says hey you don't curse much, but when you do, you do it right. That would be cooler than him just swearing, esp if he is the hero. Leave the real vulgar stuff for the villians.
Eagle Prince, his cursing is about a long paragraph in length, and I think it does what you are describing pretty well. There are still some swear words in there though.
That's all well and good until you get into first person. Then what do you say? I swore?
I have seen that done before. ex. "The car pulled out so close in front of me that I swore." or "The car cut me off, forcing me to stop quickly. I swore loudly at the offending driver."
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Agreed about the first person. Actually, I think it would be easier to get around in first person. You could say something like "I swore at him. I swore hard, using words I'd never used before--and hope I'll never use again. But I was mad as...well, I was MAD."
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I really don't like swear words in books. I don't see any need for them, and when I do see them I am offended and uncomfortable.
I also like it when the author puts the focus on why the character swore. "I swore at great length which relieved my feelings a little."
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I agree. I just don't see a need for them most of the time. They're not a part of my vocabulary, so it jars me to read them. Especially when it's taking the name of God in vain.
I agree with EUOL's solution, if it's felt necessary. Or substitute words, which I guess I use as much as anyone--"oh, man!" "wow" "dang"--not as expletives, but as expressions of amazement or inability to express feeling. But I agree that when writing in fantasy and science fiction that can get a little unreal, so just saying "he swore" and expressing the feeling in narrative is preferable to me.
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Personally, I don't find swearing jarring when I run across it in fiction unless it doesn't fit the character, the world or the situation. Of course, you can say that about anything jarring.
When I'm reading gritty realism, whether it be fantasy, modern or sci-fi settings, I expect people to swear. In fantasy I kind of like the made up swear word as long as they are used like our swear words and have, if not similar, at least meaningful roots.
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A nice long swear, creative, non-repetitious, and graphic, as I imagine ARchon's(?) paragraph is very satisfying.
It doesn't offend me but then I've just spent two years in the military, where such words are part of everyday vocabulary and have entirely different meanings than when used in a civilian setting.
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“You have always known that death would come. I am here to see it done right! Your pitiful screams for mercy will be ignored as you ignored those years ago at Minavian Castle. D*** you all! I feel pain like none you can ever imagine! Pain that your nerves, your emotions aren't sensitive enough to feel! I hate you all with an intensity that makes this punishment seem to lenient to me. You should be grateful for what you are receiving now! You should beg me for more of this, kneel to me, pray to me that I will give you more pain! You who took away all that my life could have been, deserve so much more than this, an eternity of it!"
He smiled grimly.
"Unfortunately I can't follow you into the life after this one! I can't ensure that you will feel this kind of pain after your death! I will forever be unsatisfied with your punishment! I will look back at your screaming faces and want more! More! More! You should hurt, you should bleed, you should scream the way I did, the way I still do! You should cry for a lifetime and more because your only comfort is the sound of your own sobs! You should lie awake every night for the eternity of your next life, regretting that you could not save the one thing that you had that I ever cared about! You b******s! Consider my actions now actions of compassion,as the killing of a horse that can no longer walk! You can no longer bear the burden of the world! It overwhelms, ensnares you, seizing your every waking moment! I cast you now from this world to quench my own thirst for vengeance and you shall love me for it! Run! Flee! Your death is me! Your screams mean nothing and shall soon no longer tarnish my ears! And YOU!"
To put it in context a little, the guy is addressing an army that razed his home, and killed the woman he loved. He spent the rest of his life hunting them, and now he found them, and is very terrifyingly killing them all.
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so like, they sit and listen to him through this diatribe?
comparatively speaking the two words that you found censorable were pretty mild.
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Cool.
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Minavian Castle
The first two times I read that I thought it said Minivan. That doesn't relate to this discussion, of course. I just thought you should know.
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Well SE, the better explanation is that they don't really have a choice. First of all most of them are busy moistening their pants. Second of all, he is surrounded by fireballs that are protecting him. Fourth of all, he is deafeningly loud. That is pretty loud, I was pretty sparing with actual swearing, because I wasnt sure if I should put it in there or not.
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Yes HoM, their screams were because the army bought them a minivan instead of a beamer like it promised.
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Ah, he's monologuing.
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That's a rant not a longwinded curse. With those putting in swearing is purely a personal/professional decision concerning who in your audience you do or don't want to offend. You can leave it out and it will sound great, put it in and it will sound just as great and offend some people, while satisfying others because it's that closer to "gritty realism" Which is a holy grail for some folks.
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Yeah I suppose it is more of a rant than a curse. It would still be a suitable place for swearing though. And he is basically telling them that he wishes that they would die painfully for an eternity, which I dont think that they are any happier to hear.
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Okay, so maybe it's not a first person problem. (I'm trying to justify this to myself here.) Maybe it's something else. Maybe I'll figure out what I meant some day when I have a free brain cell.
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See, the words you censored are words I put in without even thinking about it. I don't consider them swwear words. Then again, it might be a cultural thing - a B****** is something you call your best friend, not really an insult, and I think that's an Australian thing.
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But see JP, there isnt really an insult that I dont call my friends, so I dont think that makes it any less a swear word.
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There isn't an insult I don't call my friends either, but this is one I'm more than happy to say against my mother, and my mother is extremely offended by swearing in general.
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Profanity varies across the US also. The p-word which means "urinate" is considered a bad word in Ohio, but I had missionary companions from Utah who were amazed that there was anything wrong with it--there you might hear it in church with no one batting an eye.
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I feel compelled to point out that the vast majority of readers would be jarred if there was no swearing.
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I think you're wrong there ENtropy. I've never heard anyone complain about a book or a movie that there was no swearing.
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I agree. If there's no swearing, I doubt most people would even notice.
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Man, I saw the Thunderbirds movie a little while back, and it was terrible! Now, if the characters swore a bit, it would have been beleivable, but as it was, they were cardboard cutouts. That movie really needed more swearing.