Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Writing Group => Topic started by: MsFish on October 07, 2004, 05:58:32 PM
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Can I just say, I blame this post entirely on EUOL. He told me to. So there.
I quit writing today. For good. Again.
I'm just so frustrated. I mean really, who am I to think that I can write? Sure, I can write a story, no problem, but I'm acutely aware that there is a huge discrepancy between the way I write and the quality of writing that gets published. I figure, I'm just not good enough, so why waste my time and everyone else's? Leave writing to the people who can write, right?
Am I totally alone in this? I've quit so many times that people don't take me seriously anymore, but this time I think I really mean it. (Although, EUOL said he'd hold my (his) fish for ransom if I quit; which is almost a persuasive argument.) Maybe I just don't have the ego to be a writer. I mean, it doesn't really matter how many people believe in me if I don't believe in myself.
I don't mean to complain. I think my running stream of "you can do it" self talk has run out, and I'm afraid I'm spending all this time working on something I'm not going to succeed at. And that's scary.
I'm going to stop now, you know, quit while I'm behind and all that.
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I do it a lot too.
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I mean really, who am I to think that I can write?
Who is going to tell you that you cant write? If you think that you can write then nobody should be able to make you believe that you cant. You are you, you are the one who decides what you are going to do, you decide how good you think your writing is, and you are the one who has to live with yourself. If you abandon writing, you are the one who has to live with what happens because of it, not anyone else.
Sure, I can write a story, no problem, but I'm acutely aware that there is a huge discrepancy between the way I write and the quality of writing that gets published.
First of all, you have to enjoy writing. If you don't, then you should quit. If, however, you do, then the fact that you enjoy writing should be a good enough reason to continue. Also, if you are writing, you are learning about writing, and your writing will improve over time. Lastly, I hate to break it to you, but a lot of the writing that gets published is......not that great. A lot of the writing that gets published is terrible. There are surely great authors that write extremely well, Tolkien for example, but there are a lot more that are terrible.
I don't mean to complain. I think my running stream of "you can do it" self talk has run out, and I'm afraid I'm spending all this time working on something I'm not going to succeed at. And that's scary.
It is scary to not know where you are going, or if you are going to succeed. I know the feeling, and it is not one that I am in a hurry to meet with again. You do have to be prepared to stumble at some things, and if you arent you are going to feel like that a lot more. If you keep at writing, you take the risk that you might not ever really make it, but there is also the chance that nearly everyone will like your book, and you will be rich, and you will be so happy because you are so proud of what you wrote. You have to know the risk you are taking, and if you do, then you have to be proud enough to not be ready to quit when something doesnt go right. It is really up to you.
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There is no piece of writing so hoorible that it cannot get published under the right circumstances. I mean, look at Kevin Anderson.
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I read Archon's reply and agree totally. I would add some things.
Your goal in writing can't be to get published. I'm not saying that getting published is selling out or that people who write can't want to get published. But if it's you're only reason for writing then chances are no one wants to read what you're writing. Which brings me to my next point. You have to be arrogant to write. The whole point of writing as opposed to just thinking is to preserve what you create. Only arrogant people believe that what they think is worthy of preservation.
Finally, there is a difference between people who have specific stories they want to tell and people who want to tell stories. The mechanics behind the writing of each type of writer is very different. Which are you?
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I've felt the way you have many times. In fact, I decided to become an editor because I felt I could do better at shaping something that's already written as opposed to writing my own original stuff. My creative writing classes at BYU were rather discouraging for my own long-term writing. I loved my class with Louise Plummer, but she also very obviously had her favorites and I wasn't one of them, so I left that class feeling like I had little potential.
Yet I still write, though I go for long spurts of not writing fiction. When I'm not writing fiction I'm writing in my journal, writing nonfiction articles freelance, writing letters to friends that involve long stories of all the things that are happening in my life--and even when I'm not writing, I have this storytelling bug that makes me want to come home to my roommates or call a friend and tell them the story of my crazy day, or how I met Cornelia Funke today, or whatever.
If you're like that, you'll find an outlet for that need, and if writing is an outlet you enjoy, you'll improve. Perhaps you may never be great. Perhaps you may never be published. But if you enjoy it, does it matter?
In a way, yes--because if you're doing it at the expense of making a living, you probably ought to pay rent and food etc. first. But if it's not interfering with your life, if in fact it's making your life more enjoyable, go with it.
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wait, back up.
no, you don't have to be arrogent. You do have to have confidence to do it professionally.
But that's not even important
Look, I've never read anything you've written but forum posts, but I can, with a high degree of certainty, say that you're right. You're not a very good writer.
Well DUH. Did you also think you could pick up the trumpet one day and that you could play like Louis Armstrong? Did you grab a brush one day and paint like Michelangelo? THAT'S the arrogent part. Or at least hte mislead part. THinking that you could start typing and bang out a masterpiece on your first try. Or your second. Or, in many cases, your 100th. (if you're 101st story still sucks, well, rethink the career path). (that was a joke).
this is practice time chica. you'll do a lot of crap, because without a huge dose of luck, crap is the best ANYONE can do when they start. So long as each successive crap is less crappy, you're on the right path.
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I'm like stacer. I have this longstanding love-hate relationship with writing. After taking some creative writing classes and reading some books on writing, I've come up with these pieces of wisdom for myself.
1. I am not EUOL. But so what? He still thinks I'm cool (or, at least, he's really good at pretending).
2. Given that I am not EUOL, it's okay if I am not prolific and if my enthusiam about writing comes and goes.
3. Quantity will eventually become Quality. -- para. Ray Bradbury
4. When frustrated about my writing ability, or lack thereof, I will remember the above.
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Problem is, I'm a perfectionist. If I don't have the time or ability to do something right, I figure I better leave it to someone who can do a better job than I can. There are lots of things that I do have the time and ability to do it right, better stick with those, yes? Forget the writing nonsense.
Who is going to tell you that you cant write? If you think that you can write then nobody should be able to make you believe that you cant.
Ah, see, there's the problem. I'm the one telling me I can't, and in the end, it's probably only my voice that matters.
First of all, you have to enjoy writing. If you don't, then you should quit.
I used to enjoy it. I'm not sure what happened. Maybe I just pushed myself too hard. Maybe I'm not pushing myself hard enough. Maybe reality is just setting in and I'm realizing that the dream is just that--a dream. You have to wake up sometime.
Your goal in writing can't be to get published.
I don't want to be published; I want to be read. There's a fine line there. I want to believe that I have something to say that would matter to someone else. Maybe I do, maybe I don't. Maybe I do but I'm just not good enough at saying it for it to matter whether I do or I don't.
Finally, there is a difference between people who have specific stories they want to tell and people who want to tell stories. The mechanics behind the writing of each type of writer is very different. Which are you?
I think I just like to tell stories. Then again, I think there's one specific story I'm trying to tell, in a broader sense. This isn't going to make sense, but I'm going to try to say it anyway--
The only story I have to tell is my own. No matter what the current story I'm writing is about, its a piece of my experience, even if it's fantasy, even if its about things I've just dreamed up. I write it down because it helps me, because it makes me feel like I have something to say, like I can make a contribution, to be good for something.
This is sounding really negative. I don't mean it to, it just hasn't been the greatest month. *laughs at vast understatement* My apologies. I'll try to be happier next time.
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See I don't write or do other things (like bio-engneering, math, or gene manipulation) becasue I'm allready perfect at it, so why bother wasteing my time doing something I'm allready that good at? Instead I like to focus on things I'm not good at (like spelling, programming, playing video games) since I can actualy improve at them. You're not writeing becasue you're not good at it, yet you'll never get better if you don't actauly do it. EUOL use to be pretty bad at writeing too (trust me, I'm his brother) and now look at him! He's about 40% as good as I am, that's an improvement in my book.
Thing about being a writor, and trust me on this I've got publishers stalking me, is not careing about what you think about your work, but what other people think. Look at Steven King, there's no way he can actualy like his own plots and stories, yet millions do. It's those teeming millions that matter.
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It sounds like the person telling you that you are not a good writer is you. And just what is good writing? The more I've hung around editors and writers the more I realize that good writing is like beauty. It's in the eye of the beholder. Sure there are some hard rules like spelling, and some guidelines like clarity, but after a point it's very subjective. I've been stuck in the middle of many editor disputes where one editor's idea of good writing didn't match up with another editors idea of good writing.
So it comes down to are you satisfied with your writing. This probably means you need to lose the perfectionism thing. Perfectionism is disease where you brain keeps telling you that unless you are perfect RIGHT NOW, then you are no good and can never hope to be any good. It's simply not true, and I think you know that. So I think it comes down to having some faith in yourself that you can accomplish what you set out to accomplish and that the end result will be appreciated by someone out there.
And a word about being rejected. Just try to keep in mind that people generally like what they know. It hurts to find out that people haven't had the same experiences and feelings that you have had. But it's worth keeping in mind that in all likely hood there are people out there who have. My adopted philosophy about writing and the arts in general, it that people create art to connect with other people. Course some people will choose not to connect with you and it's their loss, not yours.
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Ms. Fish,
How DID you get good at things? That was my whole point. You used to suck at everything. But you worked on some things you enjoyed and got pretty good at them.
I'm totally serious here, but let me use an exaggerated example. I imagine you're a decent walker. You dont' fall down every third step, you can carry stuff while you do it, sometimes you may even do it in those high-heels which are so unbalancing.
Were you always this good? The first time you tried walking in your life, did you run a marathon? Or did you fall on your backside a lot. Probably you got frustrated a lot and even cried because you got hurt trying to do what all these people around you seemed to do without effort.
Writing is more difficult than walking. It takes a lot of skill and patience to learn how to say things the way you want them said. How are you going to do that? By leaving it to someone else? Nope. By writing stuff that won't come out the way you like it, then recognizing what elements of it weren't so good, and trying again. Once you do this ten thousand times you'll be better.
If you don't try new things, you'll never change. You'll be the exact same person you are right now, and that will be INCREDIBLY lame and boring. And don't tell me you don't try new things. Have you left fishes on people's door steps before? Don't you one day want to marry and have children? Those both have vastly more significant consequences than writing, and yet you'll make tons of mistakes. I'll bet you the world doesn't end when you do them.
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42 had a very salient point. Drop the perfectionism (easier said than done I'm sure) Be confident (arrogant) enough to write and finish stuff that is not perfect and doesn't live up to your standards with the belief that you'll get better as you work at it. You will. I swear.
If you're really helped by writing then you've got no problems, that's reason enough to do it even if no one ever reads it. If you want to be read, start sending your stuff around. If you want help improving, then ask the people that read your stuff to talk to you about it.
So in the end you must be arrogant enough to write the stuff down in the first place and humble enough to let other people see it even when you know it aint perfect. Perhaps this is the confidence SE is talking about?
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You know, I often feel the same way you do. Yes, I'm published, but I'm published in a little goofy market, and I doubt that, at my current skill level, I could get published nationally. Often, I sit back and look at what I've written and think: "This is pure crap."
But what makes me keep going is that I've set deadlines for myself. I write because I have to, not (often) because I want to. And then, when I push myself--realizing that there's simply no time for self-doubt--the good stuff shows up. If authors stopped writing just because they didn't think they were very good, I wonder if we'd have any books at all.
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Ok, I won't even bother to understand what everyone else has said and just go from myself.
I'm only 19, self-suffice to say that there's nothing worse than what I write now. I have only the confidence that what I write from today, not yesterday or tomorrow, but anything I write today will be better than what I've written in the past.
I just keep reading to further understand what it is I do. I continue to write (or at least try to) so I can help further the advancement of others wanting to write.
Read Orson Scott Card's "How to Write Sci-Fi and Fantasy." You'll get a whole new perspective on writing and how it is it could be done. Or even so far as to say how it should be done.
All I know is that you should listen to what others have to say, take it as a grain of salt, but don't let go of that salt. Until you have enough salt, you'll understand how much of your own you should sprinkle upon yourself.
Lastely, participate in NaNoWriMo. You may not be able to finish it, you may not even get the greatest manuscript. But you will get something out of it. No matter what it may be, it will be something. Sure you may entirely and finalizingly stop writing for the rest of your days. But at one point you can look back and say that yes, you did have some fun.
So, buck up, look up, and just grab the air that the plants give you. Don't worry about the monoxide the cars make, or the noise a broken vent makes. But just do. Never do not.
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Actually Mustard, if all writers stopped writing when they didn't like their work, we'd still have plenty of Asimov to go around.
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Janci, remind me to print out this thread and make you read it whenever you feel like you should quit again.
Sheesh. Now I want to participate in NaNoWriMo. Darned law school apps. Darned classes. Darned everything.
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Quit again? I still haven't unquit from the last time I quit. I don't want to write anymore.
Sadly, I'm in the middle of this writing class. I was supposed to submit today, but I didn't, for various psychotic reasons.
I'm thinking about dropping. I mean, what's the point of taking the class if I quit?
I'm in a positive mood today, can't you tell?
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WRITE DARN YOU WRITE!
have you READ my stuff? I mean, really. Just write it out. Get it down. You have something you want to say. Just do a rough draft. I don't want to see anything polished. Just get it down.
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No, I don't believe I've read your stuff. Even if I DID write, how would you see it? Why do you care?
Okay, that was harsh. I'm losing my sanity, and when I get into the advanced stages I lose my self-edit that says 'be nice to people' or 'don't say that, that's mean.' The real me is a very nice, positive person, I swear. Just ask Brenna. The crazy me is less so.
That said--I'm thinking maybe this NMWMRMO thing might be a good idea. (Yes, I realize that's not the acronym, but I don't remember what the acronym is, and I'm too lazy to look it up. You get the point. Does *anyone* actually remember that acronym without looking it up? It's out of control, kind of like me. And I love that I'm venting all of this online. I'm going to regret this later, and I don't care.) I mean, what I miss about writing is how *fun* it used to be. It was my escape. Now it's one more way for me to beat up on myself. Goodness knows, I don't need one more way to do that. I want to write, but I want it to be fun again.
Arg! Sometimes I just want to scream, but I'm sitting ina computer lab right now, so it's probably not the time or the place. The counseling center ought to have sound proof booths for such things.
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wow. That's your mean phase? You're a pushover :) seriously, if that's the worst you get, you apparently can't offend me.
I care because you're human, you obviously want to write, but you're selling yourself short. I want you to write because it will help you. Write because you like it and it makes you feel better. Don't write because you're seeking perfection.
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Okay, so I'm nice.
Even when I'm mean, I'm nice.
Sue me.
The problem is, I'm a perfectionist. What's worth doing, is worth doing right, right? "Do what you do with all of your might; things done by halves are never done right."
I don't enjoy it anymore. Doesn't that mean it's about time to quit? It's impossible to do something well that you don't enjoy, or at least, you'd do it better if you did enjoy it. I used to be better, when I enjoyed writing.
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If you can't enjoy it because you can't do it perfectly you may as well go find a handy speeding bus to step in front of. Honestly. You don't even breathe perfectly I bet. Why don't you stop that too?
If someone who wants to write doesn't that's, by definition, worse than if they scrawled some really bad melodramatic crap. So, if you want to write, write, damn the torpedoes and do it. If you don't want to write stop complaining about it and tell your friends that if they don't stop pestering you about it you'll... you'll... say really mean things to them and later beat them severely. But above all, if you really don't want to write, stop complaining where I can hear you. You're single, you're in school, and you have friends who want to support you in your writing.
Try doing it with a wife, three kids, a full time job, a house and the only contact with friends who think you're anything but a little nutty for writing being online.
You've got it easy missy.
Of course we all know you really want to write. This is just a kind of pep talk. I expect at least SE and I to get a 1500 - 5000 word short story from you by the 5th of November. I'm sure there are others on the forum who might like to get a copy as well. Expect it to be brutally critiqued with lots of suggestions. If you choose not to accept your assignment I will think of something suitably horrible in retribution.
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If you're on a downward spiral, the surest way to speed up the process is to give up something you really do enjoy because you're not enjoying it at the moment. People with severe depression exacerbate that depression when they stop doing the things that they enjoy. You become listless, say you don't have the energy to do it, and feel guilty that you didn't do it, so tell yourself you wouldn't have enjoyed it anyway, that nothing feels good anymore.
If you're in a similar rut (whether it's depression or not), seriously, DO NOT stop writing if it's something you've enjoyed when you didn't feel this way. Keep it up, and you'll find that if you keep at it, eventually--perhaps after a long time--you'll feel better. Even if all you're putting on the paper right now is really really bad, it will lead to better ideas, better stories, later. And you'll feel like you've endured without losing it entirely, even if it was pure schlock all the way through the ordeal.
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The problem is, I'm a perfectionist. What's worth doing, is worth doing right, right? "Do what you do with all of your might; things done by halves are never done right."
I'll see your well intentioned but misdirected quote and raise it by three, or maybe four:
the sarcastic They Might Be Giants with "THere's only one thing that I know how to do well, and I've always been told that you only can do what you how to do well." How obviously false. Again, how do you get to do it well? You do it poorly a lot. TMBG means it sarcastically. There's lots of things you can do, like whistling in the dark. I suspect that your writing is not crap, but neither is it perfect. Probably, like most of us, you're in the middle somewhere.
"I don't like this air, but that doesn't mean I'll stop breathing it. " Built to Spill. Mostly I just love that song. But it's also relevant. Just because it's not amazing right now, doesn't mean it's not better to keep doing it. What's the alternative living in obscurity without having tried? No thanks. keep trying, or be nothing.
Now i'm gonna get scriptural on you. "Do not run faster than you have strength." Are you strong enough to be a perfect writer? No, not yet. But the context of Benjamin's admonition clearly tells us that we DO need to run. We're just not expected to run faster than we can. it means, quite literally, that God doesn't expect your writing to be perfect, how arrogant of you to expect it of yourself. By the same lines we have the "be ye therefore perfect" commandment. The Savior didn't mean be perfect this instant. He knew that wasn't really possible. He meant it as a goal. It IS something you can eventually do. Probably in the next life. But you can get there. But first you have to be crap. "Then I saw through a glass, darkly." "milk before meat." Right (attribute those to St. Paul)? you HAVE to start off being bad. that's how you get good. He will make weaknesses strength (Ether told us that, but it's a paraphrase, not a quote). But only if you exercise them.
Last of all, you have a talent. you're proposing to hide it. The guy who hid his talent got thrown out. The guys who went out and risked losing their talent rather than hiding it doubled their talents, and then were rewarded with EVERYTHING. Another paraphrase, from Jesus this time: if you use your skill (your writing), your writing will gradually get better (line upon line, here a little, there a little, it's exactly what writing is). If you don't write, however, it'll be completely taken away, along with other beautiful things in your life. You can't stand still in this world. You either move forward, or you fall behind.
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If you can't enjoy it because you can't do it perfectly you may as well go find a handy speeding bus to step in front of. Honestly. You don't even breathe perfectly I bet. Why don't you stop that too?
Tempting.
But above all, if you really don't want to write, stop complaining where I can hear you. You're single, you're in school, and you have friends who want to support you in your writing.
Try doing it with a wife, three kids, a full time job, a house and the only contact with friends who think you're anything but a little nutty for writing being online.
You've got it easy missy.
Yeah, that's my life, easy. You pegged it.
You don't even know me. Don't tell me I have it easy.
Of course we all know you really want to write. This is just a kind of pep talk. I expect at least SE and I to get a 1500 - 5000 word short story from you by the 5th of November. I'm sure there are others on the forum who might like to get a copy as well. Expect it to be brutally critiqued with lots of suggestions. If you choose not to accept your assignment I will think of something suitably horrible in retribution.
Hmph. Why would you want to read anything I wrote?
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by the way, your quote doesn't mean that you shouldn't try if you're no good. It means that you have to put all you can into it.
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Yeah, that's my life, easy. You pegged it.
You don't even know me. Don't tell me I have it easy.
More to the point, you obviously don't know the alternatives. It does sound like you may have some depression, but several of us here suffer from that. Including myself. I think it's funny how many people think their problems are unique. This idea only serves to stop you from enjoying life even more. Other people can an will help.
Hmph. Why would you want to read anything I wrote?
Because I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy it. and if I don't, I can tell you what you can do to make it more enjoyable. Either way I get to participate in the creative process. Creating something is the best part of life. It's really sad to think you're throwing that away.
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I'm aware that I'm not unique. I just don't appreciate the whole--let me tell you how much harder my life is than yours--thing. It's my belief that everyone's life is about as hard as everyone else's life, just at different times and in different ways. There are exceptions to this, I'm sure, but in general I think it's true. That's all I was saying.
And the sad thing is, I don't think anyone can help. Sure, people want to help. People try to help. But there's nothing they can do, and it frustrates them as much as it does me.
It's not my intention to throw my talents away, or however you want to put it. I'm so out of control at this point that I'm not even sure what I'm doing, besides sabatoging everything good in my life. I think it's interesting that the writing was the first thing to go.
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There's an old axiom: "If something is worth doing, it's worth doing badly."
(And don't forget that the next lines to the TMBG song is "And that's Be You; be what you're like. Be like yourself." And if you'd rather be whistling in the dark, that's okay too.)
One of my biggest struggles has been to overcome my perfectionism and just get things done. Having a husband who is cluttered and disorganized by nature has helped . . . but not until after some truly agonizing and almost break-point moments. Having three kids that make messes for fun has also made me realize that sometimes it's more important to just get something done (like dinner, or a diaper change, or doing the dishes, or writing a note to my son's teacher, or having the towels all folded and put away) than to have it done as perfectly as possible.
The full quote is actually "If something is worth doing, it is worth doing it badly to begin with than to not do it at all." When I had postpartum depression I got absolutely no help from anybody. I was alone in an area where the ward couldn't care less (literally) and I decided in my numbness to try to do something that I remembered that I liked to do. So I started writing again. I suppose technically I started to plan to write again, but eventually, even though it wasn't easy, I began to feel again. But you've already heard this lecture.
Nothing is supposed to be perfect at first. Projects only become good through practice and revision. They only become perfect through lots of practice and revision.
What do you remember wanting to do when you were feeling better? Decide to work on your goals in that direction. What do you remember enjoying when you felt better? Keep doing that, even though you won't enjoy it for a while. It could be basket weaving. It could be writing. It could be whistling Dixie. Just do it. Eventually the feelings will come back.
And do me a favor? Don't abandon me at TLE like that! If you don't let me give you a ride home, I'll have to let SE send his ninja monkeys out to kidnap you. Or, if they're busy, I'll let my three monkeys do the job.
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Honestly? I'm a jerk right now and I shouldn't be around anybody. That's the reality of it. I'm not caring enough about anyone to be nice.
Secondly, I can't just think my way out of this one. I need help--real help--but I've exhausted every avenue of finding it and nothing has worked. This isn't a temporary thing for me. I've been dealing with it since I can remember, even when I was a kid, and it doesn't get better. It only gets worse.
Sorry for venting this at all of you. I've run out of people willing to listen.
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Hmph. Why would you want to read anything I wrote?
I guess I feel like responding to this one.
I think that people would want to read what you write because of why people read. There are a lot of theories as to why people read, but I like the theory that says that people read so that they can connect with someone else. To quote the film Shadowlands "We read to know that we are not alone."
So people who read what you write are looking for a way to connect with you, the author, and with the characters, conflicts, ideas and world that you have presented.
Now the problem in our current world is that Academia, literary critics, editors, and the general commercialization of writing have taught us that some things are just not worth reading. So in a way they are saying that there are some people just not worth connecting with. Despite the other merits of these professions for the writing field, I find this to be a great disservice to significant portion of society.
So as I see it, when an English instructor hands you back a paper filled with corrections and comments, it can be interpreted that your work to establish yourself is not worthwhile. That your attempts to connect with someone else are not valuable and that perhaps you shouldn't try to connect with anyone unless you can do so perfectly. And in a way, it tells you that perhaps you shouldn't waste everyone elses time by just being.
Now, Admitably, most editors and english instructors see that what they are doing is aiding you to create better writing. Unfortunately, most of them are working from someone elses opinion of what is good writing. However, after have read a lot, I find that there is really multiple versions of what is considered to be good writing. There is no such thing as "perfect" writing.
So then we have to ask, what is bad writing? Well, bad writing is what you say is bad writing. To me, James Joyce's writing is bad. I don't connect with him and his concerns, so therefor I think he is a bad writer. Now my saying that is not going to stop new copies of Portrait of an Artist... from come out every year or from countless academics teaching it every year. James Joyce has made his voice be heard by finding his own little audience.
The point is that bad writing can not really be proven absolutely. It is largely a matter of opinion where even basic spelling and grammer get questioned. The voices telling you that your writing is bad are simply not right all of the time. If you listen to them all of the time then they are actually hurting you and your writing rather than making anything better. So don't let them.
It comes down to having enough confidence to make your voice be heard. There have been many good voices that have been stifled by the nagging of a few who have made their voices louder.
So just repeat to yourself--I'm here, there is a reason that I'm here, and I going to make others know that I am here (by writing). There is really no reason for you to be unheard and alone.
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Secondly, I can't just think my way out of this one. I need help--real help--but I've exhausted every avenue of finding it and nothing has worked. This isn't a temporary thing for me. I've been dealing with it since I can remember, even when I was a kid, and it doesn't get better. It only gets worse.
In the professional arena, there are some very good counselors available for BYU students in the Wilk. I recommend checking it out if you haven't already. Seriously.
In the amateur area, the writing will help you. it'll help US understand what you're going through, so we can help more. ANd it will help YOU get it out. I think you'll find that forcing yourself to write will make you feel better.
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Yeah, that's my life, easy. You pegged it.
You don't even know me. Don't tell me I have it easy.
Who said anything about your life? I certainly didn't. I was speaking strictly about your ability to write.
Quote:
Of course we all know you really want to write. ... horrible in retribution.
"Hmph. Why would you want to read anything I wrote?
1: Why do you care? I've made the offer.
2: As others have said before me, because I get to participate in a creative process. Always cool.
3: That participation improves my own writing. I get to see neat things I'd also like to see in my own writing and horrible dumb things that I may have been tempted to do in my writing but won't now because I've seen how dumb they are.
4: I suspect you will be happier if you write and I'm all about helping people be happier.
Satisfied? The clock is ticking. You only have 7 days now to turn in your work. ;D
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And the sad thing is, I don't think anyone can help. Sure, people want to help. People try to help. But there's nothing they can do, and it frustrates them as much as it does me.
Ms Fish, I hope you don't give up on writing. I believe in you, even if you don't. How can I believe in someone I've never met? Because you are a daughter of God and that means you have a limitless potential. God, being omniscent, knows exactly how you feel, what you're going through, and what you need to do to improve your situation. If you feel that there is nothing anyone else can to do help, then it's time to turn to him. In God all things are possible (even writing, even finding daylight in your life again). Obviously the solution will not come overnight, but it will come.
My son is 4 months old, he is very cute (he's laughing at me right now, which fills this mother's heart with warmth), and I love him very much. In the 4 short months since he's joined my family I think I have screamed aloud in frustration 5 or 6 times. (No, no, this was after labor.) I'm pretty sure I've never done that before. The reasons for the frustration are tied to my own struggles to overcome perfectionism. Something about those moments of unbridled frustration reminded me (in a later, saner moments) of the scripture about needing opposition in all things (2 Ne 2:11--that's such a great chapter). I thought about how everyone always talks about how much they love their children and how wonderful they are, and I realized that other mothers must have similar experiences to mine. Because they felt the terrible frustration, it enabled them to feel the joy and love more acutely. So I am learning to accept my frustration when he is cranky and even to be thankful for it because it means that I notice his smiles and laughs and enjoy them, which is something I wouldn't really be able to do if he was always so pleasant.
I think writing is like that too. I've read some books on writing and it would appear that you and I are not the only ones who get so frustrated with the art, and her own abilities (or lack thereof). But then I remember how wonderful it feels to really start writing, to be "in the groove" as I call it. And I know I wouldn't be able to enjoy it if I didn't have those (seemingly endless) periods of block.
It takes hope. You have to remind yourself, that yes, today sucks, but you will not always feel this dismal. You remember feeling better at another time, and you will feel better again.
Finally, don't feel guilty if you feel it is best to let your writing lie fallow for a little while. Like soil, you may find yourself renewed by the guiltfree respite. We'd love for you to start coming to the Abridged Speculists meetings. As Skar said, reading other people's writing teaches and encourages.
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Oh yeah. AS, typically meeting on Tuesdays at 7pm utah time online. IM me and I'll give you the IRC infor you need. We've been slacking for a bit, but we need to get back into the groove.
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AFTER November.
And when did we move to Tuesday?
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Thank you, all of you.
The real me is going to really appreciate this when she comes back from wherever she's gone.
If she ever comes back.
Oh, and what's AS?
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Uhm.. a little bit ago, Izzy. It's been so long since we met though, we probably just need to decide what day is best for people again.
Ms. Fish, AS = Abridged Speculists, the name we chose, after MUCH debate, for our writing group. Even if you're not writing right now, maybe you wnat to join us and hash all over our work so we can make it better.
Incidentally, you sound like you DO want that "real you" to come back. I think you will come back. We're just trying to hasten the day :)
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Of course I *want* to get better, but I don't think any of this is about what I want. If it were, I wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. Who *wants* to be depressed?
Ok, that's probably a lie. There's probably a part of me--maybe even most of me--that wants to believe that I deserve to feel like this.
*screams
I really can't believe I'm saying all this to total strangers. Goes to show how desperate I am.
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I've been there!!
I find it helps to envision sticking that part of me in the closet and locking the door so that the other me, the me that I want to be, can have some space to breathe.
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Yeah, but I think I've got the reverse situation right now. The real me has locked herself in the closet because she's terrified of the crazy me. I'm not sure how to reverse the situation, and I'm so sick of being stuck in this mess that I'm too discouraged to try.
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I don't know if this is very helpful, but my friend Morag once said that the best way to handle those dreams where you are being chased by monsters, etc. is to think about taking an automatic weapon into your dreams before you go to sleep. I don't know if it works, because my nightmares are usually about missing something, or forgetting something.
Umm, so, yeah, probably not very helpful.
How could you empower the "real you"?
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actually, it sounds like you have some similarities with addictive behavior.
To forestall any freak outs: i'm NOT saying that you are on drugs, or that you're addicted to pr0n, or that you've got an eating disorder, or any of a hundred other addictions like behavioral changes. Not knowing you, I have to admit that it's possible you are, but I have no idea about it. I'm not saying you're addicted, I'm saying that what you describe has similarities to an addiction cycle. Something I'm a little familiar with, for various reasons. I'm not counselor, but I know a couple things.
1) addictive cycles feed on themselves. You feel down, so you do something rash, which gives you a temporary high or fulfillment but ultimately leaves you feeling more isolated and/or unworthy, so you separate yourself and feel down some more. Lather, rinse, repeat endlessly.
2) the best way to counter such a cycle in many cases is to open up yourself. To admit what it is you are doing that isolates you and/or makes you feel down and unworthy. Usually this is a shameful thing, which is why it isolates you. Again, I have no idea if you do such a thing. And neither am I suggesting this is the best forum to start opening up like that. A psychological counselor is a good place. Or a close friend. Or a loved family member. Those are good places to open up about what is hurting you.
3) this prevents you from being isolated, so you don't get as down. You then have a little more option to do things that make you happy instead of whatever it is you are addicted to because the psychological compulsion isn't as great. one more time, maybe you're not addicted, i'm not qualified to say that. So if you're not addicted to something, substitute relevant phrase with whatever it is that gets you down, etc. You may not be sure what that is. When in doubt:
4) do something uplifting that you love. Like writing. Or singing, or gardening or reading or leaving fish on random strangers' doors. The separating yourself from society (because, as your post implies, you're not fit for the company of others) and droping the things you love. are only accelerating your downward spiral. doing other things will stop the cycle.
the cycle you're in, even if it's not addictive, is what caused you to drop writing. therefore, picking up writing again will be a great way to stop the cycle.
There's nothing "Wrong" about you. Even if we posit that there IS some addiction or something, that hardly makes you less a person. Heaven knows we've got our own problems. Look at half of us and get to know us and you'll see how messed up we are. Plus I don't even know if there IS an addiction in you. Whatever's gotten hold of you, it's following a similar cycle to this though, and I hope what I've said can help you out.
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Oh, and to add to all that
5) you slip and fall a lot. That just happens in recovery. You have to accept it. Once you accept that it will happen (not that is "may" happen, or that there's a possibility of it, it WILL happen. You will feel like you're recovering from your mental state of disorder, and something will happen) those slips will be less discouraging.
The slips make you feel terrible, like you can't go any further. You think you should have it all down by now. But going way back to my alking parallel. You feel on your butt a LOT when you were learning to walk. What if any of those slips had kept you from trying again? You'd be an infantile little .. well.. retarded individual. Crawling every where you go, unable to grow up. But, if you just accept that the slips and falls come when you're trying to change your life, you can realize that sucha slip isn't final at all. Slips happen. Falls happen. Pain happens. But they aren't the end of things. They're just part of the path upward
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I like that you're being so incredibly careful so as not to offend me. I'm aware that my problem mirrors addictive behavior. Not all addictions are to drugs or alcohol or pornography or so on. Some of them live inside us. I learned that by talking to a friend who has an addiction problem. I realized that his problems are exactly like mine, just that mine don't affect my temple recommend. Also, he can avoid his addiction because it's physical. I can't just stay away from it, because I carry it around in my head.
Sooo much fun.
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SE, we never moved back to Tuesdays. We've been on Wednesdays for a while now.
(Unless I missed some memo.)
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As a female, I have to ask - are you looking for therapy or sympathy?
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Although we all are just bricks in the wall, I'd much rather be that one that was the redder of the bunch, than be all the same exact color as the rest.
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Fuzzy-- I think the only thing I'm really looking for is my sanity. I'm not sure where it went.
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oh is that all? I have it stashed away here in my jar of souls. Sorry, it's in storage. I can't get to it for 5 or 6 more months.
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So this is all YOUR fault! I blame you! Your ninja monkeys have absconded with my sanity!
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you wouldn't believe how many times I hear that accusation in a day.
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It's always fun reading the last page in a thread without reading the middle. I haven't followed things along from the first post (which I did read) but one thing that seems relevant to me is that I've heard that writing is partially just getting a story out of us that wants to be told. I think I can understand your frustration with always wanting to write, but having trouble doing it. If my understanding of the problem is decently close, I recommend sticking with your writing even if you never intend to show it to others, just to tell the stories you want to tell. Not all of us are EUOL, and besides, you'll get better as you do it anyway.
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oh, and at this point? you're not the only one comparing her/himself unfavorably to someont like EUOL.
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Are you talking to me? Since when am I comparing myself to EUOL? That's not a fair comparison for any of us to make, unless you spend spend X bazillion amount of hours every week writing. If I had that kind of dedication maybe I'd be great too.
But on the bright side, after I turned in a pathetic attempt to my writing class this morning, I've decided to give it one more shot. I have a novel that I wrote a chapter of this summer, but never got any further. I'm going to pick it up again, because it was just for fun, nothing serious. If at the end of the month I still want to quit, then that's it. I'm not going to feel guilty about it, but I figure I owe myself at least one more try.
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:) Sounds like fun.
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Yeah. Or something. ;D
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oh, maybe *I'm* the only one comparing himself to EUOL unfavorably.
Keep on it Fishy!
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Um, no, me too.
But, fortunately, EUOL is one of those humble, encouraging sorts who does a really good job of making you feel like you just need to keep working so that you can be as good as he is too.
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yeah, my seething jealousy has nothing to do with EUOL personally. And I"m hardly Anne Lamott with her hatred of friends being successful. I'm just stressed over other things, and very covetous.
Beware, EUOL, the ninja monkeys are coming to steal your life and give it to me!
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But, fortunately, EUOL is one of those humble, encouraging sorts who does a really good job of making you feel like you just need to keep working so that you can be as good as he is too.
Yes, but you see, this can be both a good thing and a bad thing. He's persuasive enough to make me want to believe him, but the thing is, it's probably not *true*.
Or maybe it is, and I just need to have more faith. Maybe we could all be great writers if we just believed in ourselves for long enough to really and truely give it a shot.
Beware, EUOL, the ninja monkeys are coming to steal your life and give it to me!
Yeah watch out for those ninja monkeys. They've still got my sanity. I want it back, dang it!
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oh, just because you have the prerequisite angst, I'm gonna say that EUOL's probably right. Because then it's more likely he's right about me too.
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prerequisite angst? What's that supposed to mean? ;D
See, I'm more likely to think he's right about everyone *but* me.
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remind me to have you read my "two thieves" story that my whole writing group despised, then ask EUOL what he's said about my potential in the past (not about this story, but my over all potential). You'll be looking up then. You'll think, "With THIS crap he's got potential? EUOL's either insane or maybe I have a shot too!"
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If I were choosing between those two (EUOL being insane or me having a shot, that is) I'd probably go with the former. ;D
Hmmm, or maybe it's both! Down with binaries!
You seem to have ignored my question about the prerequisite angst. :P
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yeah, I did. I think you already know what I mean. The angst fairy is like, one of your best friends. Don't worry, she hangs at my place a lot too.
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I don't think of myself as angsty. I prefer dramatic. After all, the unexamined life is not worth living, right?
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Prerequisite angst probably has something to do with the idea that all really good authors have some sort of mental handicap.
I have the angst fairy and the Drooling Muse, which is my son. He has been in a remarkably good mood for a boy whose mother spends a lot of time in front of the computer rather than playing with him.
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I was worried for a while that getting to go off and shoot bad people for two years would exorcise my angst...
Nope. It's still there. (strokes his angst and giggles)
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I'm posting on this thread again because I'm having the exact opposite experience as I had in November.
So I dropped my editing minor, and in doing so effectively finished my degree in December. So this semester I'm taking one class for fun and working as a TA for ten hours a week. I could have been a responsible adult and gotten a second job and not been broke, but instead I decided, I have enough money to survive, I want to write, dang it.
So I'm basically doing nothing this semester except writing. I figure, I'll never get this chance again in my life, I better seize it while I have it.
So there's been the usual fear and doubt...what if I'm just wasting my time...what if I should be doing something else...what if I can't write that much...what if I'm not any good and this never goes anywhere....
So today was my first day, and I wrote 4,000 words, and made a bunch of progress on one of my novels, and did some rewriting, and had a ball. Things went so well and I'm just so *happy*. I feel like happiness is just going to spin out of me and splatter all over the walls.
And another thing I realized is, looking back at my first couple of novels, I'm a heck of alot better now than I was then. Like alot better. Eons better. So if I can improve that much, whose to say I can't be a writer? Who's to say I can't keep improving until I make it, right? I mean, no one can tell me that I can't live my dream, if that's what I really want and I do what it takes to get there.
I'm sure I'm going to have bad days, but if I get to feel like this for four months it's going to be the best four months of my life.
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Good job MsFish. Took you long enough to realize that you were good. ;)
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Well, I don't know if I'm good. But I'm going to be, gosh dang it. Thanks, Archon.
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I hate to say I told you so, but you told yourself so.
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Well, done and good luck.
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man, yeah. Isn't that exactly what I said several dozen times? I'm glad you realized I'm right ;)
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Just reading the latest on this now, so sorry if my 2 cents make no sense...
I was just think that the only "good" that matters is if you're good by your own standards, if you feel good about how you write. If you don't have that, no amount of other good is going to be worth it.
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I mean, no one can tell me that I can't live my dream, if that's what I really want and I do what it takes to get there.
Not even you. Way to go Ms. Fish. :D
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Yes, yes, you all told me so. Remind me of that next time I lose it.
Kije: I think you're right. It's sort of the same thing I've realized--that if I don't believe in myself no one else's belief in me will matter in the slightest.
Thanks for the support everyone.
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I think that is really cool. Go you!
It's nice to be involved in a board where you can see people actually make progress in their lives on various fronts...