Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Writing Group => Topic started by: JP Dogberry on March 01, 2005, 09:03:27 AM
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Some of you may have read my (long) short story "Ruined World" aka "Systemless." This post concerns you. I'm also interested in hearing from the published authors on the forum.
I've pretty much finished with this story. I reread it today, and just thought, with a quick edit for spelling and grammer, it's good. Really good. If I ran a sci fi mag and saw it, I'd buy it. So I'm going to sell it.
I did a quick search and found a magazine that looks like a pretty good bet, based in Canada. I read their description and I think they'd like my story. I plan to buy the ebook of one issue pretty soon to check it out.
Now, my questions are:
1) Those who have read the story, expecially the latest version, am I right in the quality of it?
2) Is anyone who has or hasn't read the final version willing to keep some final feedback on it?
3) Is this magazine the best way to go, or what? 42 mentioned TLE, and said I should try there. Am I right in thinking that a webbased magazine is worse than a print one, but that any paying money is pretty good? (Given I'm trying to break into the market as a first time author - the magazine said they appreciate submissions from first timers).
4) Any other advice or suggestions or whatever?
Basically, I'm ready to go for it. I've sat around for long enough, time to actually become a professional writer.
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just courious, what e-zine you looking at? Care to post a link?
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A quick google Search pulled up "Challanging Destiny". I read the guidelines of about five I found, and this one looks like my story would fit in well, based on the guidelines.
http://home.golden.net/~csp/cd/index.htm
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I haven't read it for a long time, so I'm not sure I've read the latest. email me at eehlerse AT bestroutes DOT com and I'll read it at work.
However, TLE is an EXCELLENT route to go. They pay, they work a lot with new/unknown writers, and even if they reject it, they will give you feedback.
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I looked at TLE, they said four months which was pretty good, so I'm sort of thinking going for the one with a four week waiting time might be a better start, but I'll see. TLE also said something about solicited submissions, and I have no idea what that is.
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I would think he would want to send it out to many companies at one.
Also that site only buys the electronic rights for 6 months, so I don't see why he couldn't send it out to TLE which buys print rights as well and get it in 2 magazines.
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SE, that address was exorcised by my mailing daemon - that is, it didn't work.
Sending it to both is a good idea. Can you do that? And get paid twice?
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they both buy different rights. TLE only buys North American serial rights (ie print) so technicaly you could get it published in Austraila and Brittian too if you realy try hard. They each have different markets that don't overlap so they don't care.
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Print magazines are better than e-zines, as far as getting your name out there. Also, don't do simultaneous submissions unless the magazine says it accepts them.
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http://www.yudkin.com/flfaq.htm#II
that link explains rights.
Though you might want to check with the publication on what their meaning of Electronic rights are since it seams some places can really rip you off. Though theirs is only for 6 months, so even if it sucks it's not for ever.
Electronic rights" is the big battleground in the magazine and newspaper world today. As publications begin to make past and current issues available online, some are illicitly republishing in electronic form contributions for which they only acquired one-time or first serial rights. Other publications are demanding writers sign "contracts from hell" in which they give up electronic rights for no additional compensation. All the major writers organizations are active on this front. For more information, contact the Authors Guild, the American Society of Journalists and Authors or the National Writers Union.
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Print magazines are better than e-zines, as far as getting your name out there. Also, don't do simultaneous submissions unless the magazine says it accepts them.
how would the magizine know if he sent it to another one somewhere else? They don't check with each other. I think its ok for him to send it out to other magaiznes that don't have overlapping markets. What is TLE looseing if someone in Australia or an electronic only e-zine also publishes it? nothing, becasue each has a very small readership.
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The biggest reason is because they don't want to fight over someone with rights. So I'd ask an editor if they'll accept it.
Not telling them is dishonest, and if they ever found out, they would never do business with you again. You don't want to shut any doors on yourself as a writer. Like Sprig points out, the rightes don't conflict, so I'd just ask the staff and see if they think that's ok. I don't see why they'd hve a real problem.
edit: oh, and the email address didn't work because I was combining addresses from different employers. Try eehlers AT bestroutes DOT com
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I don't see it as dishonest unless the rights are the same. If a publisher only wants North Amrecian rights then it's none of their business if it also gets publshed outside that magazines area.
No simultaneous submissions will be considered. No electronic submissions will be considered. All simultaneous submissions and submissions not containing a SASE will be recycled without reply.
Thats TLE's view, which is fine for NA rights, but its silly, if not arrogant, to think a publication that's only market is Provo would not consider something if they submitted something outside NA or electronic.
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TLE sells outside of Provo. -- in fact, if I remember right, they sell more outside of Provo than in. The BYU bookstore sales are not very good, and when we placed them in other bookstores in town they sold very poorly.
how is it NOT dishonest to say "I haven't submitted this to anyone else" when you indeed have submitted it elsewhere or to even imply that by silence? And why would you risk burning your bridges like that? If they truly won't be bothered by it, then why is it any problem to let them know? That's just what is called professional behavior. It's also called being "honest in your dealings."
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I wouldn't say "I haven't submitted this to anyone else" if I had period, becasue it's also none of their busniess if it got rejected somewhere else. If it had been published with in thier area (in this case NA) I would tell them that, if it was published outside their area I wouldn't becasue it doesn't matter then. It's has nothing to do with honesty, its not relavent to the circumstance.
And yes, TLE shippes to outside provo/orem, but there is no store that sells it outside that region and no marketing outside it either. So TLE's market is Provo/Orem, not nationwide.
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TLE is advertised in a number of national trade magazines, Sprig. I know. I've filled out the applications myself. Thsu your argument about their market isn't pertinent. Their market is international, since that is where they sell.
They're not asking about rejections. They're asking if anyone else is considering it at the same time. That's what "simultaneous" means. It IS their business. That's why they bring it up. The people considering your work have a right to know about any potential conflict. TLE has in the past considered running stories on their web site. This would be a DIRECT conflict with the situation at hand. If they are starting to do that, or even considering it, then it is dishonest not to tell them.
However, the most important reason is, again, for professionalism. If people know you have a tendency to elide the truth, then they are much less likely to even talk to you. You would have to be a MAJOR player for them to consider otherwise. You can't afford to make bad blood in a business like writing. Therefore, whether you think it's a real conflict or not, if it contradicts their policies, even in a harmless way, which this DOES, however you want to represent the facts, then you need to make them aware. It can only do you good.
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Well I didn't know about the adds in the magazines.
There is no conflict if one magizine is asking for NA rites and another is asking for European rights. If the magazines see it as such they should state they want world publishing or English language publishing rights. To me, you cannot argue that a magazine deservers to know about what's going on overseas if they state they only want NA rights. Same with the internet. If, and we'll continue to use TLE here, they want to possibly use something on the internet then that should be stated and they should state they want those rights. If they don't, then the plublication has no bases to argue what you are SE.
You argue it's professionalism, I aruge it's the plublications bullying authors and trying to take more rights away from the authors then is stated in their submission guidlines. Since TLE isn't upfront with thier internet policy nor their international one then they're the one's being dishonest and unprofessional.
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The submissions guidelines refers to manuscripts being submitted electronically, not contractual electronic rights. That might be where the confusion comes from.
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no I think those are fairly clear Stacer.
They don't state they may want the electronic rights, and that should be something stated.
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Were you talking about this?
No electronic submissions will be considered.
Because that refers to electronic attachments to emails. They only take hard copy submissions.
And as far as how electronic rights are handled, you're right on how some publications take electronic rights without intending to ever do anything with them, etc. But it's unprofessional to simultaneously submit when they specifically say they do not want simultaneous submissions. If, when they offer a contract, it includes electronic rights and they have no plans to use those, you can negotiate them out so that it can be reprinted elsewhere. But it's just best not to be upfront about it. If you say in a cover letter, "This is a simultaneous submission," and note that the markets do not overlap, that's more honest than not saying so at all.
You are right about NA rights not overlapping with European or Australian, but I'd be very careful about electronic stuff, as it's still a very gray area.
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I think what Sprig is saying (If I may restate...) is that a magazine that says it doesn't want simultaneous submissions should only get upset (as honest professionals) if an author sends them a submission he is simultaneously submitting in the area where they are actually buying rights.
An author should be able to assume that a magazine which says it doesn't want simultaneous submissions actually means simultaneous submissions under the same rights package. (ergo NA Serial, (don't submit simultaneously to TLE and Asimovs))
Now, whether or not NA mags do get upset if you submit to a European rights mag at the same time you're submitting to them, has little or nothing to do with whether they should and a beginning author has to walk a fine line between exercising the full range of his rights and pissing off people in the industry.
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Oh I know TLE has the right to say that Stacer, I also know it's easy enought to submit to somewhere else instead that might have different rules. I'm just useing TLE as an example for this discussion since I know most people here are familiar with it and I'm sure it uses a common wording for their submissions. What I'm getting at is why they, and others, do.
I agree that TLE shouldn't ask for the electronic rights if they don't plan on useing them, but they could mention that sometimes the do so make sure to let us know about them. Same thing with international. How hard is it to say that? Also if being printed in Europe or Australia really annoys TLE that much why not ask for english language rights? If it doesn't matter then why care if they do?
Edit: Ya Skar gets what I'm trying to say.
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And on another note. Were I to sell NA rights to a short story to a mag I'd expect more money (maybe a lot) for the electronic rights. The web is a global marketplace and once it's been published on the web a story has nowhere else to go. The web publishers would have to compensate me for what I could have made in all the other print markets if they want to publish it electronically.
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Since this thread is also to help JP decided what to do let me add that I think that at least the one he's planning on publishing with only takes the electronic rights for a limited time, I think that's important. Since you never know how the internet and electrionic publishing will evolve and permanitly looseing those rights can be detremental in the long run.
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I don't disagree with any of the "magazines should."
I'm just saying that stamping and demanding your "rights" is going to piss people off, something you don't need at all, especially if they were going to let you do something anyway. Just be up front about it, and you'll get a reputation of a proactive worker who is easy to work with and honest. Thus, hiding what you're doing is only going to make things harder for you in the long run.
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I understand what you're saying, Sprig--I just didn't understand that you weren't referring to the part I quoted above, which confused me. I agree with SE, though, that even though things *should* work a certain way, beginning writers need to be careful as they get started not to walk blindly into that gray area.
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JP--If you want to submit to TLE you probably don't have to wait four months. Address the submission to me, (I'm the circulation director, so I check the mail anyway) and I'll tell the fiction director you're a friend of mine. I'm pretty sure she'll shotgun you, which means you'll be read before anything else.
Meaning, hey! Submit to us!
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Yeah, BYU students, staff, and friends of staff get shotgun status in slush reading. Hey i might even show up to read it!
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The thing about simultaneous submissions, even when the publisher is purchasing different rights, is that they can be grounds for the publisher to withdraw the contract and can also be used as grounds to not pay the author.
It can also create some bad press for a new author if word gets out. (publishers sometimes place a great deal of status in publishing the first to publish such and such..) And in the world of short story science fiction word almost always get out. It is usually best to publish one place first then republish with the other publisher using differnt publishing rights later. That way no one has hurt feelings, usually.
Making one enemy in the publishing field can easily sink your career when you are just starting out.
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Yeah. What Fish said. You'll get your reads with comment sheets and have a decision within a week or two if you submit to TLE. You'll be shotgunned for sure.
But about simultaneous submissions: just don't. We've had to throw away several submissions in the last few weeks because they were simultaneous. We also had an author who sent us a story that we rejected, and a few months later they included on their cover letter that the story we'd rejected had just been published elsewhere--it was a simultaneous submission. We won't read his stories anymore.
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*Fish breathes a sigh of relief
Glad y'all agree with me on that one.
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Ok, this is really cool. I like having friends in high places. I'll do a final edit, SE, I'll pass it over tonight and get your final comments. Then, Fish, if you can give me an address to send it to and any details about how to send it (like what return envelope and postage to use and format and stuff, or if I just follow the stuff on the website guidelines) I'll send it over. You shotgun me, I'll be eternally grateful and possibly published.
edit: and if I want to try for the online one, I can do that after I get accepted or rejected by TLE and not step on toes, right?
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Hehe. High places. I guess that works.
Yeah, if you get a rejection from us you're free to do as you wish.
Just follow the website guidelines, and address the envelope to me. The address is
4198 JFSB
Provo, UT 84602
You might want to stick a note or something on the manuscript that you're a friend of mine or that I know what's going on or something, in case someone else checks the mail, cause you never know.
Oh, and my full name is Janci Patterson, in case you didn't know. It's on the website though, I think.
Just let me know when you're sending and I'll keep an eye out for it.
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Not to burst everyone's bubble, but JP, if it seriously is a really good story, TLE is the next-to-last class of place you want to send it (the last being Hadrosaur Tales). You want to hit the A-list markets first, like F&SF, Analog, Asimov's, and SCIFiction. Then the Bs like Aboriginal and Interzone. TLE is a C. A pretty-good-paying C, but its circulation is practically nonexistent, and that's no good.
If you know there is NO WAY IN HECK that the A or B publishers will take your manuscript, then send it to TLE first and hope they like it enough so it gets published and you can mention it in your cover letters for your NEXT story that you send to the As.
Now, of course, if you send it to the As, one at a time, it will be months and months, maybe a couple years, before you work all the way down to TLE. Gratification would be quite delayed. If indeed TLE did want it and the others did not. But if you sent it to TLE now, you'd hear back pretty darn quick due to it being shotgunned.
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There's interesting thinking. Really, I'm trying to break into the market, and I think getting anything published anywhere will make getting published elsewhere more likely. As in, work my way up.
I really don't know about what level would buy it. I think it is good enough that someone would, because I think I would. But I'd need someone elses opinion on who to try.
If I published just one thing in a small market, I know I'd be satisfied that I was a professional writer, technically, and I'd be keen to work my way up. Then again, getting my first story published at a youngish age by a big name magazine would be a good thing.
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Well JP you're lucky enough to have SE proofing your story, he could easly tell you if you have a shot at a bigger publication or not. 'Course, if he says you might, it dosen't mean you will, but it's something you should take advantage of.
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I'll try to look at it today. It came in the email. MY recommendation on the last read is start with TLE, if they don't take it, then you can improve it and try other places. But it may be very different for this version. I'll read it and let you know.
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Mind taking a look at my story and giving me an idea what level publication to submit to? All I know is that it didn't win WotF...
(Hmm. Forum doesn't like ANSI diaereses)
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Jade,
TLE is one of very few publications that comment on the stories we read. If you're looking for a completely unbiased read, send it to TLE. You can always go from there. And if you let us know you were a student of EUOL and a former BYU student, we'll get it read quickly so we'll monopolize it for as little time as possible.
JP,
If you're worried about your story being too good for TLE, then feel free to send back any publication contracts with raspberries, a sample of dragon fertilizer, or whatever.
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Soon enough I'll have two things published in a college book of poetry/stories. Both poems though.
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Poems about chocolate?
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Ummm, that'll be, #3. Yeah?
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Chip.
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I'll go ahead and send it in when I'm back in the States, then. I don't think it's worth the postage right now.
I expect that it's good enough for TLE, from the Fantasy I've read that we've put in there. But I could always be wrong. If nothing else, the reviews would be much appreciated. Particularly if any of them are on par with EUOL's.
Speaking of, I never sent you the final version, EUOL. Would you like it? I took some (but not all) of your advice. And I completely rewrote the ending. And I like to think the story is much better now.