Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Writing Group => Topic started by: guitarbabe on January 16, 2006, 07:47:02 PM
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Okay, so I've published an LDS chick lit book called, 'Rules of Engagement.' It's a romantic comedy about the dating scene around here...BUT it was by far WAY easier to publish than it EVER was with my sci-fi. I can't tell you how many times I've been rejected with the sci fi. In fact, when I got the call from the publisher, I thought it was a joke! My friends have been known to prank me, but before I could say, 'Shut up' and hang up the phone, I decided to 'look stupid,' and play along. Luckily, I soon realized that it was the real thing. AMAZING! I can't tell you how many times I have tried to send my sci fi in with no results, yet the first publisher I sent my romantic comedy to, accepts it? It was ridiculous...yet really really nice for once.
So, I've been reading up on all the 'for dummy' books, and 'marketing strategy' books, and I thought, 'hey, since I've published something, maybe now I have a chance to get some of my sci-fi published.' No big fat chance! Is it a connections thing? Is it an agent thing? Is it an amazing query thing? Is it just pure dumb luck? Does anybody know here?
I actually started writing for a magazine to get some resume (but yeah, it's not sci-fi), and to be perfectly honest I wrote the romantic comedy for resume too (even though I really like that genre now and I'm totally going to do some more that direction), but without the know-how, I feel my sci-fi books are doomed to never see the light of day :'(
Anyhoo, maybe I just need some more input, especially from the sci-fi crowd. Some of my friends are completely clueless about that. If you want, check out my website. It's www.stephaniefowers.com AND I have the blurbs there. Maybe I just need to figure out what places to send it to?--I heard (and maybe I read it on this site) that you need to find out what publishing companies take your kind of books and go from there). And yeah, one of my friends helped me out with the website. Totally awesome of him, but he stuck everything in a pink background. Lol, what can I expect paying someone with just Taco Bell?--he probably was just trying to get his revenge on me. Anyhoo, if you can ignore that part, read the blurbs and give me your honest opinion on the books. That would be awesome! I seriously would appreciate it.
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EUOL will have a lot to say about this, as he has before.
But mostly it's a persistance thing. You have to go to cons and meet the agents and editors. Treat it like a business. Keep writing new manuscripts so you can keep them in circulation to different publishers. Work hard at it.
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also realize that putting spaces between your paragraphs makes them easier to read.
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Ha ha, thanks :D
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I went to your Web site and in your "About Me" section you say you won an award for your "Only a Princess" story and you say it's sci-fi. Is it really sci-fi or are you including fantasy in that genre? (I personally think they're completely separate, so I was wondering since the title sounds more like fantasy.)
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Hmm, good point. Well, it takes place in the future...but it's written like fantasy. I wonder if that makes sense? All of my books, besides 'The Few,' which is definitely science fiction work that way.
You can click on the 'Only a Princess' blurb on the website if you like, but basically after a geological mishap, a ten on the Richter scale, (the survivors call it the ten plagues), the continents are split apart (another Pangea), leaving a mass of islands in their wake. Whether it was caused by the leftover debris or the volcanic eruptions, no one (conveniently) knows. All that is left are myths and legends, and a struggle for power.
You can imagine how much I had to pick apart the brains of my science major friends and siblings to get these 'possible geological end of the world scenarios.' And the research...it was fun, but a headache. A lot of it can't be confirmed or are just theories of what could possibly happen, so then of course my characters don't know 'the real story' either (they just know that their God saved the survivors; whoever, that God may be, depending on their culture). It's my favorite strategy when even I don't know the answer. I guess it's a little like real life in a way, so many creation theories, no one knows the 'whole' story. I actually think a lot of authors do it, and that's when I say, "Ah hah, they didn't know either."
So, anyway, the islands are the background of the story, but I zone in during the turning point of the war. Our heroes are losing. A dictatorship looks like it will finally take control. The pirates of the American Seas and the Revolutionaries of San Andreas can't stop the invaders...and the only one who stands a chance against it...is supposed to be dead.
I'm actually thinking about tearing the story apart (somewhat) and rebuilding it (I just want to make it shorter)--I really like the concept.
Anyway, I would totally appreciate it if you looked at the blurb on the story and told me what genre I should classify it (I bet that would really help when sending it in to publishers).
As I was writing the blurb, I realized that it might be a little 'Dunish,' except Dune takes place on a completely different planet. What's that classified as? I might classify all my books that way (except 'The Few' of course). Also, the titles are definitely up for change. My little brother tells me all my titles are c*&p ;D. Maybe that's what needs to change?
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Just from your synopsis in that post I'd have to say it's definitely Sci-Fi.
There are certain tags that make things Sci-Fi, like: spaceships, taking place in the future (your case), and the pre-eminence of technology as a motivating factor.
I'm leaning towards use of the term "SF" or "Speculative Fiction" as an all encompassing label for things that don't take place in our current world or its past. (or that include magic of any sort or... well, a lot of things)
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We the Fantasy advocates disapprove of your all-encompassing label. We Fantasy people were here first.
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So what's your definition of sci fi/ fantasy, Archon? Let me hear the other side too.
By the way, that guy slamming his head on his computer until he's a bloody pulp is repulsive. I'm showing all of my friends!
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If it's in the future, but there's magic, I think it straddles both worlds. In children's lit, some people use "science fantasy" as a term for such things, but I don't really like that term. I think Skar's "speculative fiction" would be a more appropriate umbrella term. It also sounds mystical more than magical, but a mysticism in which the belief/power is magic?
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That is very informative (all of yous). Man, I wish I knew about this place a few months ago. I bet it really would have helped with my query letters. So, if I called it speculative fiction, that would be the better term? Or should I just stick with sci-fi? Votes?
Sooo, to go along with the portfolio for science fiction, what are some of the things you've all done to build up the resume? Magazines? Other genres? Is this something that's important to publishers or does anybody know?
Has anyone here tried to write a screenplay? (maybe that's a completely different topic)
As for that guy who wrote a killer query letter and that publisher is looking at his stuff because of it...I should look up who that was...what would you suggest?
I've tried so many different types of queries, from 'purely informative and to the point' to hyper 'get excited' to movie trailer like. So far...
Hey, wait...one of my friends told me that our own Mr. Brandon had 27 rejections before his book was accepted. Is that true? She said that she would have crawled into a hole and given up if that had happened to her. Is preseverence the key then...or strategy? Both?
And THEN there's the waiting period. Man, sometimes that's the worst. I have checked out those 'writing market' books, but I think they get outdated fast. I can't tell you how many places I've sent them to and got a letter a few months later to tell me that they've been out of business for awhile.
I wish there was a way to kind of check the waters before you dive in and wait the allotted three to six months before you get another rejection. Like I said, I really like the idea of checking out books that are like yours to see who published them. Is there a way to see who was their agent? That could be very informative.
Anyhoo, just some crazy questions before I dive back to writing. I'm writing 'Meet Your Match' (another LDS chick lit novel), and I'm actually doing the narrative from the eyes of a 'sorta' villain. It's a new experience for me. I just hope it doesn't turn me evil or something. Yeah, scary! :D
I remember what C.S. Lewis said when writing 'Screwtape Letters.' He had to think like a villain and it was a little dark. Not like my story goes to such great lengths, but it's really hard for me to go that deep (ha ha, that could totally be used against me).
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As primarily a fantasist (A term coined by EUOL, I believe), I have no objection to the term Speculative Fiction. It's a good super-category label. There are many elements that fantasy, science fiction, superheroes and even a good deal of horror share, and they tend to have a huge amount of crossover in fans. There's no reason not to associate them if you keep in mind that there are differences.
But maybe that perspective comes from also being a comparatist: there's no such thing, in my mind, and hard and fast boundaries separating genres, especially such similar ones.
The best way to "check the water" I think, is to keep multiple manuscripts in submitable status. That way you can circulate them to different people.
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So do simultaneous submissions? I hear publishers get mad if they catch you doing that without telling them? So, I guess that's an easy one...tell them. That's in the query letter, right?
What's a diplomatic way of saying you're going to do that (even if you're just thinking about keeping manuscripts handy)? Any ideas? I've also read that they won't look at your manuscript as seriously when it's a simultaneous submission? Is there a way to get around that?
Ah la! We need to interview an agent about these kind of things. Too bad I just resigned at the magazine I write for. That's always a good excuse to get connections 8)
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no no no, not simultaneous submissions. That's sending the same manuscript to multiple publishers concurrently. I'm saying send a different manuscript to each publisher.
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It does put the odds in your favor if you have 4 or 5 books written and are shopping them around.
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As primarily a fantasist (A term coined by EUOL, I believe),
No, I think that term's been around long before EUOL.
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Oh, hey! That makes sense...sending in different manuscripts!
Brilliant, Vivian! (Uh, that is such a random obscure movie quote, I don't expect anyone to recognize that one)
Steph
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Sooo, to go along with the portfolio for science fiction, what are some of the things you've all done to build up the resume? Magazines? Other genres? Is this something that's important to publishers or does anybody know?
While I was working on my novel (I've only finished one, and I'm envious of those who have finished more, let alone gotten one published), my creative writing teacher suggested that I write some short stories in oder to "build a resume."
Since then, I've sold a half-dozen short stories at pro rates, but the question of whether that will help or not is still open, since I haven't quite gotten to the point of submitting the manuscript.
However, the short-story route is probably worth pursuing only if you're comfortable writing short stories.
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Who would you suggest sending short stories to? I'd love to get into that!
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Short Stories are a good way to get started, but the pay scale isn't as good.
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It's only a good way to get started if you're good at writing short stories. I know a lot of novelists who can't write a short story to save their lives, myself included. It's a different medium entirely.
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Who would you suggest sending short stories to? I'd love to get into that!
I suggest that you look at the SFWA qualifying markets (http://www.sfwa.org/org/qualify.htm#Q5), get some sample issues, and determine which of those markets are most likely to accept the kind of stories you write.
Beyond the SFWA-qualifying markets, look at other markets that either (a) pay pro rates (5 cents/word or better) or (b) are considered realtively prestigious in the gnre community. (A way to check the latter is to look at nominations for awards or selections for "Year's Best" anthologies. If a lot of nominated stories come from a market, then it's probably prestigious.) You can also look to see what short story markets authors you like have published in.
Once you get beyond the pro and prestige markets, you can still try to sell your story if you want, but that sort of credit is not really going to do much good in terms of impressing a publisher.
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That is very informative (all of yous). Man, I wish I knew about this place a few months ago. I bet it really would have helped with my query letters. So, if I called it speculative fiction, that would be the better term? Or should I just stick with sci-fi? Votes?
I vote speculative fiction.
Has anyone here tried to write a screenplay? (maybe that's a completely different topic)
I may be taking a screenwriting class down here--my friend has almost got me convinced to do it. So, after that, I'll be able to spout off knowledge. As of now, I know nothing.
As for that guy who wrote a killer query letter and that publisher is looking at his stuff because of it...I should look up who that was...
That's Parker. Who actually knows a lot about film and may have screenwriting advice. He's even lecturing at LTUE about film and adaptation. (Yay! Go Bryce!)
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Chimera, I wish I had taken that class when I had the chance. When I was taking some creative writing classes at BYU, we got this email where we could've have made our stories into screenplays, kind of like a team effort with the film students, but I was too wrapped up in writing a novel at the time and I didn't want any distractions. I wish I had done it. I'd go for it. I had to get this 'for dummies book,' but it was a laborious process. If I was planning on writing more than one screenplay, I'd get this screenwriting program that they have.
So Parker, if you ever read this? Well, first what's LTU? I've actually written a screenplay of that novel I got published and gave it to a production company to look at, BUT how long is the waiting period? I don't want to be pushy really, but when would it be appropriate to call and query about it? They've only had it for two months, but it's just a little bit different than manuscripts (because that's a pretty short waiting time for those), though I'm sure you know this already. Anyhoo, what's the most professional way to do this?
Side note: Chimera, I saw that Asian Backstreet boys thing the other month. We about died laughing. It seemed like something we would do.
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LTUE (http://ltue.org/): Life, the Universe, and Everything, an annual, FREE
con symposium held every Feb at BYU. It manages to attract a good crowd of professionals even though it's free to attend. (You just have to register is all.) Let's see, last year we had EUOL, stacer, EricJamesStone, Dave Wolverton, Jerry Pournelle, L. E. Modesitt. Jr., Robert J Defendi, Helge Moulding, David Howard, Howard Taylor, and more.
I had a great experience at last year's LTUE. I got to meet and hear David Howard, best known for the Galaxy Quest script. (Oh, how I love that flick!) I also got to see one of the magical critters from my novel transformed into concept art by Howard Taylor, who does the Schlock Mercenary comic. Wow, it was awesome to see my Tree Gifflet (http://images.snapfish.com/345%3A%3B%3B486%7Ffp338%3Enu%3D3262%3E5%3C6%3E347%3EWSNRCG%3D32334887%3B%3A56%3Anu0mrj) rendered into full-color concept art! Sure, not everything is captured quite as I'd envisioned, but it's darn cool nonetheless. 8)
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Finally got around to reading this thread, and I'm glad I did--since LTUE hadn't told me they had put me on 3 panels. In fact, they had failed to mention they put me on any. But now I know--and I'm even on a panel with Kevin J. Anderson, which is nice. But it's at the same time as the writing for young adults panel . . . which is a bummer. I'll have to have someone take notes over there for me.
Anyway--Guitar, as far as writing queries go, I haven't a clue. The agent (not publisher) commented that he liked my synopsis a lot. He didn't say anything about the query, which I sort of skipped. My query involved a plane ticket to Madison to go to the World Fantasy Convention, and then a face to face conversation with the agent, followed by a personal recommendation by one of his clients. So that went about as good as it could possibly go. I recommend it highly. ;) As for the synopsis, I just tried to make it as representative of the feel and tone of my book as I could.
My advice on the whole write-as-a-career thing is what I'm doing myself. I write as a hobby right now, and I'm not banking on it ever paying the bills. Should that happen, it's icing on the cake--although I'm doing everything I can to try and make that happen. I write because it's what I love to do. It certainly takes up a lot of my time. Write write write, send the manuscripts out, and try not to worry too much about the rest. But what am I doing giving you advice? You already have a book published, correct? Congrats.
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lol they actually have a panel on the Stargate TV shows, that's pathetic.
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Ahem. I'm on the Stargate panel.
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Oh, that's LTU. Okay, I just didn't know the acronym for it. On the off chance of sounding stupid, what are you going to do on these panels? Are you all on the SAME panel? When? I want to go and ask you all questions or something...if that's what you do, that is. That would be great fun!
As for already publishing a book, man, that does seem like a fluke sometimes. I'm getting a kick out of it right now because some of the girls in my Relief Society just figured out that I wrote it (I just moved into a new ward) :'(. Well, it's total Chick lit. The most unreal moment was when a girl at institute saw me check my name off on the roll and she actually recognized it...as more than just the annoying chick she heard so much about. Hee hee.
I can probably write more LDS genre books, and I will...(I love comedy), BUT they don't really seem to help with getting my sci-fi published...and like you said, writing doesn't really pay too well, not right now...even though I really love it. There's no way I can quit my dayjob or quit being a starving artist either. Oh well, it's more glamorous that way. Gives me more to write about too.
I am definitely doing that conference thing though. It sounds like everyone has had a really good experience with it. And tell me when that panel thing is happening too! I wanna see! Man, I'm demanding.
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Ahem. I'm on the Stargate panel.
Ya and why are you on a panel talking about what the show's future is? What's your involvement with the show? I probably worded my first statement wrong, what I should have said was "They've got a Stargate panel where it's only fanboys who know nothing about the TV industry are on and have no involvement in the show other then they watch it. How pathetic."
Not to be rude Eric but it's rather silly to get a bunch of fanboys on a panel and talk like they're insiders on the TV show or movie and have more qualifications to be on that panel the the people in the audience.
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Well, Spriggan, you are of course entitled to your opinion on that.
But by that standard, pretty much all of the media panels at LTUE are pathetic. I doubt anyone involved in producing the latest Harry Potter movie will be there for the Goblet of Fire panel. I don't think Joss Whedon or anyone who's worked on any of his shows will be on the Worlds of Joss Whedon panel.
Guess what? People can still enjoy going to those panels, for the same reasons they enjoy talking about movies and shows with their friends.
In my experience, the media panels like this get a lot more audience involvement than the writing panels -- because you're right, there are people in the audience who are just as qualified to be sitting on the panel as the panelists. So why aren't they on the panel? Because they didn't bother to get involved beforehand. I did bother, and in order to help out LTUE's organizers, I volunteered to be on media panels about things I happen to love watching, if they needed panelists.
So call it pathetic if you want. I just happen to think sci-fi fans getting together to discuss their favorite shows is a good thing, not a bad one.
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Then why not call it a bunch of fans getting together to talk about the show/movies/etc? I don't think fans getting together is pathetic, I never said that either, what's pathetic is the con organizers setting up such panels to give off the illusion that they've managed to get people from those projects to be there like it gives the con more credibility or something. They've even given the discussions topics that make it seam like there are insiders there.
If they just called these things "round table discussions" about your favorite shows with you and the other panelists as the moderators then there's nothing wrong with that. Yet the con decided to purposely label these discussion in a way that's misleading to get more attendance, it's dishonest.
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Oh, so now it's not just pathetic, it's dishonest?
Yeah, whatever, Spriggan. If you really feel that way, complain to the BYU Honor Code office and start organizing a boycott of LTUE.
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Oh, so now it's not just pathetic, it's dishonest?
Heck while we're at it why don't we add stupid, silly, cranky, not fresh, pasty, and Fahuzza to that list just for good measure.
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And off-topic...
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I see the point of both "sides" of this argument, but I'd have to say I end up concluding it's only a matter of semantics. Panel vs. Roundtable. And when it's reduced to that, I have to give a big shrug. I'm on some of the panels being decried here. How did I get on them? I sent an email to LTUE and told them what I have some semblance of expertise in: adaptation and YA lit. I have taken numerous classes on the latter, and my MA emphasized the former. So while I may not be an "insider," I think I know what I'm talking about--and I might go so far as to say I know a bit more than many in the audience. LTUE is a small con, trying to look like a big one. So they have high aspirations? Many of the people who attend this one don't have the time/money/insert-other-reason-here to go to a big one. Don't call them pathetic because of that--most people consider calling people names rude, and pathetic seems so harsh.
How about just plain old "sad"? ;)
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I think the reason why Sprig and I are hesitant about LTUE is because it's *not* a con. At least, it isn't supposed to be. It's supposed to be an academic symposium, because BYU doesn't host "cons."
When I start to agree that it's dishonest is that LTUE doesn't act like an academic symposium in most regards. The only thing that makes it an academic symposium is how they've described it to the administration.
I mean this with absolutely no offense Eric, but frankly, a fan discussion of Stargate has no place at all at an academic symposium.
And yes, I've even presented at LTUE. I was on a panel about art in comics (and how it communicates the message) and presented a paper I wrote on the medium of comic books. I was hesitant to do that, but I decided to do it because the things I would be participating in were academic in nature.
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> but frankly, a fan discussion of Stargate has no place
> at all at an academic symposium.
Kind of like this discussion has no place at all in a thread about agents, publishers, and building a portfolio?
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> but frankly, a fan discussion of Stargate has no place
> at all at an academic symposium.
Kind of like this discussion has no place at all in a thread about agents, publishers, and building a portfolio?
Wow someone hasn't been around this forum much, 2 pages is pretty much where things go off topic.
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Woah. I've been newbie smackdowned by a master. I think I'll go to a corner and cry.
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5 Fell Points(tm) to EricJamesStone, for making me laugh out loud.
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Oops! I didn't mean to throw the thread through a loop...oh, but I get it now. You were just demonstrating what a panel does, right? That must be it. ;D
Sooo, when you say that this science fiction symposium isn't a con, does that mean that there are no publishers or agents there to talk to? (Do you like how I managed to somehow link this to the topic on hand?) There are authors there though? Maybe it's just a writer's conference to hone your writing skills? That should be interesting enough.
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lol they actually have a panel on the Stargate TV shows, that's pathetic.
So don't go and leave those who wish to in peace.
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LTUE has never had much in the way of editors and agents, at least not since my first year in '96. Since then, like Spriggan said, it's been tending much more toward a fandom con and away from either a pro con or an academic symposium. And that's fine for those who want it, as Fish said, just don't go hoping to make valuable industry contacts.
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No editors or agents really, but they have a pretty good turn out on authors. It's a good "con" to go to if you want to get your feet wet. It's free, it's local, and if you're a writer, you might well come away with some good advice on how to improve your craft so that when you go to a real con--one with agents and editors to schmooze with--you'll be more prepared.
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And it's fun. Don't forget the fun.
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Well, there will probably be one editor there this year: me. I have an author who lives in Spanish Fork, and I thought it might be nice to pop down for it. I'd considered going to CONduit instead, but I think the timing works better for LTUE, because CONduit is just a few weeks before ALA. The summer fills up pretty quickly.
I haven't been put on the schedule yet, though, because we're still looking into travel arrangements. I'll know more tomorrow or the next day.
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. . . and if you're a writer, you might well come away with some good advice on how to improve your craft so that when you go to a real con--one with agents and editors to schmooze with--you'll be more prepared.
Yes, very good point. I confess that LTUE was my first SF symposium event, and I'm glad, too, because when I went to CONduit, I felt much less self-conscious and out-of-place. I even made a good contact there. Starting off in a smaller, less formal setting was just what I needed. :)
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It's final: I will be at LTUE. Getting in Wed. night and leaving Sat. night right after the last YA panel.
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Starting off in a smaller, less formal setting was just what I needed.
Absolutely. At CONduit, I was always worrying about whether my cummerbund was properly covering the waist of my tux's trousers. ;)
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Okay, so I've published an LDS chick lit book called, 'Rules of Engagement.'
I've read it. It's pretty dang funny. I was laughing out loud.
You can join the speculists's writing group here, if you want, to help give you feedback on your sci fi stories. We 'meet' twice a month online, switching between each others stories each meeting. Email me if you're interested and I'll give you the scoop. (Email is on my profile...)
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Thanks, Nessa. I'll do that. You guys are awesome!
You should see what I'm doing with my latest Chick Lit book. I'm writing it through the villain's POV. I love it...maybe I just know how they think. Uh hmm.