Timewaster's Guide Archive
Departments => Books => Topic started by: Oldie Black Witch on July 17, 2005, 03:15:35 AM
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If ever a book needed discussion this is it.
Betrayal and girlfriends and horcruxes, oh my!
And if you don't want to know spoilers, don't click on the thread.
You have been warned.
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The choice of teachers was unexpected. So was the fact that Voldemort has cursed the DADA professor position since Dumbledore refused to let Tom have it.
Then Snape becomes the DADA professor. Did Snape know of the curse? And could he do anthing to prevent something major from happening that would cause him to have to leave Hogwarts?
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I'm having to seriously reassess my opinion of Snape. I suspect Dumbledore knew this was coming and spent the entire year teaching Harry everything he'd discovered about Tom Riddle's life to prepare him. However, Snape is (as usual) an interesting position. In chapter 2 he made an Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa. He hesitated just a moment before taking the third vow, probably trying to figure a way out without revealing anything. There was no way out, so Snape took the Vow knowing the position it put him in.
When Snape came across Draco and Dumbledore in the Astronomy tower, he was forced to fulfill the Vow. Snape saw that Draco couldn't do it, and rather than forfeit his own life, Snape raised his wand at a pleading Dumbledore and performed the Killing Curse. Ordinarily, that would be enough to convict him in my mind. However, Harry ran after Draco and Snape to catch them before they left the grounds to Apparate. Harry caught them, but Snape very easily disarmed every one of Harry's spells. I have no doubt that Harry's Unforgivables he was trying to hurl at Snape would have worked much better against Snape than Bella, but Snape merely waved each curse, hex, and jinx aside. It would have been simple while Harry was blinded by rage and unable to even finish a spell for Snape to have attacked and succeeded in killing Harry.
But he didn't.
There's the usual "He's for the Dark Lord" stuff, but surely Voldemort doesn't need Harry alive anymore. So why didn't Snape just finish the job?
I think Snape was hoping for a way out of Voldemort's service without ending up in Azkaban or dead. While under Dumbledore's protection, Snape was relatively safe and had secret hopes that someday Voldemort may be defeated. Remember that Snape is the only person accomplished enough in Occlumency to be able to lie to Voldemort. (Or was he really lying?) When he was forced to fulfil the Vow, Snape was forced to choose between Dumbledore and Voldemort. Dumbledore was obviously in no position to defend Snape. I think that when Dumbledore's and Snape's eyes met, Dumbledore knew the inevitable. Snape was forced to act the part of a loyal Death Eater, and flee. But he left Harry alive when he had the chance to finish the job.
I think in book 7, Snape will openly act as a Death Eater from now on, but he'll have the burining sense of guilt from killing Dumbledore that will hopefully allow him to perform the "redeeming act" JKR has mentioned.
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I think it will give Alan Rickman some fabulous acting opportunities in the future. Personally, I don't know. I'll need to read the last book and then reread the whole series more before I can really pass judgement on Snape. Right now I'm upset with him. In the old memory where James and Co. were tormenting him, my heart just broke. It was a huge, huge turning point for me. And he turns out like this... I don't know.
I do love that JKR can incorporate such complexities into her characters. Good and evil... sometimes it's cut and dried what you need to do to do the right thing. Sometimes it's not. Oh it's 3am and I'm too tired to think.
Oh, and I try to stay out of harry potter internet fandom, and I'm glad because all of the ship-ers are going to be going nucking futs over this book. The Ron/Hermione ship-ers as well as the HUGE Ginny/Harry fandom.
Us speed-readers gots to stick together, Oldie Locks, yes yes.
I really need to go back and read at least 4 and 5 again. I've read 1-3 so many times, but I never got through Order of the Pheonix more than once.
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I think Dumbledore and Snape had planned it out before hand. I think Dumbledore knew he needed to die, and he set things up with Snape. That way, Draco didn't kill him and then irrevocably put himself on the side of the Death Eaters and Voldemort. Maybe I'm too sympathetic toward Snape, but I think there is a lot more going on here then we know about. Plus, Dumbledore was asking for Snape, not Pomfrey, and kept telling Harry to go get Snape for him. And I think that Rowling created Dumbledore as a wizard who knew exactly what he was doing.
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Normally I would agree that Dumbledore is a wizard who knows exactly what he is doing, and what is going on, but this book rid me of that illusion for the most part. For one thing, in this book, we see exactly how much Dumbledore knew about Voldemort, and, more to the point, how much he didn't know. He also failed to predict that the Horcrux had already been taken. And, if he was as omniscient as he seemed in previous books, then he would have figured out a way to avoid being killed. Even if he needed Voldemort to believe that he was dead, Dumbledore was smart enough to do so.
Now, onto Snape the Spineless. I considered the fact that he might have been acting under Dumbledore's orders, but I find it unlikely, because if he were going to do so, it would be far more practical to use a different curse. It is doubtful that the other Death Eaters would be suspicious if he used something like Sectumsempra. Dumbledore could survive such an ordeal, and still make it look as if he had died. I doubt that the Death Eaters would bother to check a pulse, they were in too much of a hurry to get out of the castle. Given how much magic Dumbledore and Snape know, there are doubtlessly countless ways in which Dumbledore could have survived, and still appeared dead. So, I am much more inclined to believe that Snape actually killed Dumbledore independent of Dumbledore's will. Hence his nickname. He did not have to make the Unbreakable Vow with Malfoy's mother. That was his choice. And when the time came, he should have died instead of killing Dumbledore, who had done so much for him. He didn't, because he is a coward, and he feared death. As he was running away from Harry, he said something interesting, that I think contributes to my point. He screamed, "DON'T CALL ME COWARD!" He seems to be overly sensitive in that area, which usually means that he was thinking that same thing about himself. Therefore, I assume that he thought that he had acted like a coward when he had faced Dumbledore. Not facing the Death Eaters, killing Dumbledore rather than face the consequences of his decisions, all of these could easily be considered cowardly actions. Which leads me to think that Snape was just caught in a tight spot, and he did what any person without a spine would do.
Oh yeah, and I would like to join the speed-readers club. I finished it today, and I have had an extraordinarily busy couple of days since I got the book. I also finished the last one in about a day, without a late night.
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I'm more with Oldie Locks. I think it was improvisation. I don't think that they knew for certain any of it was going to happen.
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Just finished. Great, but sad, book! Who would've thought about Tonks and Lupin--I must say, I'm quite pleased. There are far too many loners among the adults--it's nice to see some appropriate pairing off. And I was glad that Fleur pulled through and showed her true colors. I would have been more disappointed if she left Bill and he ended up with Tonks (which is what I predicted as soon as Ginny said Bill had been mauled, so I was pleasantly surprised that JK didn't do that)--it seemed cliche, and this I liked more.
I have been pulling for Ginny and Harry since book two, I didn't know there were other people on the Internet doing that like Fuzzy said (which makes me resentful--I thought I was original), but I was ecstatic when it mentioned the love potion smell and connected it with Ginny. However, I just hate that Harry turns her away at the end--if Hermione and Ron get to come along, Ginny should too. I hope he changes his mind, or Ginny follows them or something, in the last book.
I have found myself a loner in that I have never liked Snape, and never trusted him. I felt a little like Harry, and would grudgingly accept that there must be some reason to trust him--since Dumbledore said so, I tried to believe it--but deep down I still disliked and distrusted Snape. I have found myself in the minority in this. EUOL always maintained that he found Snape to be the most interesting character because he was complex and you're not sure if he is good or bad, but I am not one of those people who is very fascinated by dark maybe, mabye-not characters. (This is why I think I liked Hrathen in Elantris least, and still have a hard time seeing why he is people's favorite.) I like characters who are predominantly good but flawed--THAT kind of maybe, maybe-not character. I can never sympathize with someone who is purposely cruel. Snape was always purposely cruel to Harry, particularly when Dumbledore wasn't around. So he saved Harry's life--so what? He made it so hellish whenever he had the chance--so Snape saved his life so he could make it more miserable more often? That doesn't fly with me. Snape was always too evil and vindictive towards Harry--since I sympathized with Harry, I could never completely sympathize with Snape. (Though, admittedly, the time I felt the most sympathy was in the memory where Harry saw his father torturing Snape. It still didn't justify him being repeatedly cruel, though it did explain it a little more.)
I had a feeling this was going to happen after I heard an interview with JK Rowling where she said something about Snape to the effect that she was surprised at how many people sympathized with him and she wouldn't recommend sympathizing too much. Which gave me the hint that something like this was going to happen--that Snape would turn out bad in the end. I guess there is the possiblity he can do something good in book seven, but that was a horrible way to kill Dumbledore, and he was described thus: "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." That is no act. It is as if Snape has been waiting for this. I DO NOT think it was planned between Dumbledore and Snape--not at all. Dumbledore trusted Snape and Snape betrayed him and enjoyed it when he killed him.
So I can't say I was surprised. Just a little disappointed, nonetheless. I would have been happy if Snape redeemed himself. But I wasn't expecting it--I was expecting something more like this.
And I DO think that the only reason Snape did not kill Harry was because of express orders from The Dark Lord not to. Voldemort is not one to be crossed, and I think it like him to reserve Harry Potter for himself--Harry has became far too interesting, with the prophecy and the many excapes and "The Chosen One"--Voldemort would want to kill him himself. Otherwise, I think Snape would have relished killing Harry himself--he certainly has expressed his hatred towards Harry and his father many times.
I was also expecting Dumbledore's death, especially since I couldn't help myself and I read the chapter headings in the Table of Contents and I read "Phoenix Lament" and "The White Tomb" and said to myself, "Shoot, that has to be Dumbledore." Besides, lots of people had been predicting it--Harry's mentor and all, and he has to die before the final battle to really give Harry a motive, like Obiwan Konobi in Star Wars.
The fake Horcrux really does suck. It had to be found out, but it does add a certain element of pointlessness to Dumbledore's death.
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Finished it last night. Fortunately, my job gives me hours of reading time, usually. (Stupid drunk third-graders trying to get hotel rooms at 2 a.m. so that they can get high on Harry Potter and Pixie Stixs.)
I'm not sure what to think of Snape. I really was sympathizing with him at the end of the last book. Yet, the more I think about what he's done, he really must be evil. I did figure out he was the Half-Blood Prince early on, but I was speculating that it was him before I started the book.
As to why he didn't kill Harry. Well, rampantly speculating here, isn't Harry, himself, one of the horcruxes. I mean come on, the death-eaters are forbidden to kill him. He could read the thoughts and intentions of Voldemort. Voldemort wants to kill Harry, himself. Why not because Harry harbors part of Voldemort's soul? Perhaps, Voldemort placed part of his soul in Harry when he killed Harry's parents and he was about to die himself? Perhaps that is why Harry has the scar?
Anyways, it a great book. I was getting a little miffed at all the stupid love-triangles and dating stuff. It reminded how I hated all "so-and-so is going out with what's-her-face" kind of gossiping happened so much during high school. However, the ending more that made up for everything. I'm not really surprised at all that Harry broke-up with Ginny. It would have been rather un-noble of him not to.
Also, wasn't there a lot of under-age drinking in this book? I know it's set in Britain, so chances are that they aren't really breaking any laws, but still.
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Also, I'm not sure what to think about Draco. I kind of have some hope for him now, but he's still evil.
And, I want the seventh book NOW!
I'm hoping we don't have to wait too long for it to come out.
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As to why he didn't kill Harry. Well, rampantly speculating here, isn't Harry, himself, one of the horcruxes. I mean come on, the death-eaters are forbidden to kill him. He could read the thoughts and intentions of Voldemort. Voldemort wants to kill Harry, himself. Why not because Harry harbors part of Voldemort's soul? Perhaps, Voldemort placed part of his soul in Harry when he killed Harry's parents and he was about to die himself? Perhaps that is why Harry has the scar?
What an interesting idea! I never would have thought of that. But if that's true, then doesn't Harry have to kill himself before Voldemort can be killed?
(Actually, the first time I heard the lines of the prophecy I thought it meant that both of them had to die--that Harry must die for Voldemort to die, and vice versa. I need my copy of book 5 to look at the exact words again. But then Dumbledore and Harry interpretted that it meant that one of them had to kill the other, not that they both had to die. But what if they interpretted it wrong? They have made mistakes before.)
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If Harry dies in book 7 then I will probably burn the book. That would be such a stupid way to end the series. First chapter, The Boy Who Lived; last chapter, The Boy Who Died. It would make the whole seem thing rather pointless.
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Just finished it today! I've had it since Saturday and it's been killing me not to read it non-stop.
My mom actually mentioned something that made me also think that Harry is a horcrux. I'd just finished reading about what a horcrux was when we started discussing Harry, and she said something to the effect that Voldemort put something of himself in Harry when he died. And Dumbledore agreed, when he told Harry why he could speak Parsletongue. Maybe that's why he was sad (aside from knowing that he would probably die) - he thought that Harry would have to die to kill Voldemort.
Dumbledore's death actually didn't surprise me, and I'm glad. After all, why would Draco's mom be afraid of him trying to kill Harry? Why not someone stronger that no one else could get to? If I hadn't been preparing myself for his death, I'd be writing hate mail for JKR right now.
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I kind of wonder if the next book will have Harry knowing that he will have to die to kill Voldemort from the start. Then he spends a lot of the book trying to figure out a way to destroy Voldemort without killing himself.
I'm also a little curious as to what will happen to the Dursleys. I'm assuming there is more to Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia than previously explained.
Unfortunately, it looks at though J.K. Rowling is looking to take a year off before starting the next book.
Also, seven million copies were sold in the first 24 hours. If I'm thinking about this correctly, assuming that many people will share copies with friends and family, a sixth of the U.S. population could have easily read this book in a few months. That is insane.
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I honestly don't think that Rowling is stupid enough to kill Harry.
That being said...
I had never considered the idea that HARRY is a horcrux. But if he is... wow.
Since you have to kill to create a horcrux, perhaps one can disenchant it with a special power.
A special power like the one Dumbledore has been telling Harry he has.
Love.
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I have no doubts that Harry is a horcrux. It makes perfect sense as to why Harry has so many of Voldemort's abilities. And it also explains why Harry has a window into Voldemort's mind. And it sets up a fantastic puzzle for the next book: how do you exorcise a bit of Voldemort's soul from Harry without killing Harry?
Some have suggested a Dementor's kiss. Risky.
A charm of some sort?
Love that widdle fwagment of Voldie's soul so much that it comes out on its own?
Only JK knows.
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I expect to completely forget about the matter within a few weeks and not think about it again until the last book is published. ;D
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The ending is probably going to be Ron is actually Harry's Dad. Think about it.
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Thinking of Harry Potter always makes me want to get Improved Familar feat so I can get a hippogriff. But then I think about how many more alter self spells I'd need to get it around Underdark b/c of the large size. And my sister always tells me how Hagrid has awesome spell resistance, and so do titans in D&D, so then I always think about that for my Half-giant too. Well my PrC eventually gives SR, so I will eventually have that part covered. Not that I was totally going for Hagrid, my guy is a lot more into carnage... but how many half-giant wizards do you run into, even if you're in the business? So obviously I get a lot of ideas for my PC from him.
I haven't read any of the books yet, but my sister tells me about them all the time and some of the stuff drives me nuts. Hagrid should have just busted skulls on those death eaters, the centar divination teacher should have warned Dumbledore/Harry/OotP/etc, Ron/etc should have stoped Draco before they got to Dumabledore (plus the toughest wizard in the world shouldn't be taken down by a dork like Snape, let alone be threatened by some pimple-faced teenage punk). The good guys are way tougher, yet the bad dudes win, it makes no sense.
About Dumbledore knowing a lot, can't he see through all those trading cards of himself or something? Seems like he could use a lot of divination magic with them, but it would mostly be current events stuff, not old stuff that happened forever ago like Voldemort's horcruxes.
The scar thing is obvious, they talk about that in even the first and second movie. The scar always goes weird around Voldemort and Harry has some of his powers and such. The horcrux just explains more about it.
I could always be wrong though, I've only saw the movies.
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Like you, Chimera, I was alerted by the chapter titles.
I cried. Did anyone else?
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Surprisingly, I didn't. Shock and the forewarning of chapter titles, I suppose. I was really sad, but no tears. Maybe because I was trying really hard to suppress it, because I didn't want to spoil it for the rest of my family. Oh, wait, I remember now. I cried a little--I went into the bathroom and turned on the fan and cried very quietly so no one would know, for only like thirty seconds or so. And then I put on a brave face so as not to give anything away. (Funny, huh--sounds like a war or something really serious, not a reaction to a book.) :)
My sister-in-law cried a lot, though. She's been sniffing and wiping at tears for like ten minutes now. So my brother (her husband), who has been trying to weedle out of me who dies in this book, now knows that Dumbledore dies. Because he doesn't think she would cry so much if it was someone else. Which just made her more angry and flustered because she doesn't like it that he is always trying to find out the endings to movies and books without actually seeing/reading them, so she got mad at him when he was comforting her/pestering her with questions and told him to get out and leave her alone.
Married people are weird.
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It takes more than that to make me cry now.
I'm more likely to cry because someone is saved rather than someone dies.
Married people are only weird because men don't listen.
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I'm with Sigyn about Snape...but mostly because Karen said so.
It's all about DRACO. When Dumbledore said "Severus...please..." he wasn't pleading for his life. He was pleading for Snape to kill him so Draco would not be saddled with it.
Rowling means Snape to be much more of an ambiguous character than we might have thought in previous volumes, but she still spent a ton of time in this book giving evidences that he is still on the side of good and deep down a good person. Not a NICE person, but a good person. Eh, Karen should come post in here...
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It takes more than that to make me cry now.
I'm more likely to cry because someone is saved rather than someone dies.
Married people are only weird because men don't listen.
I only started crying when Fleur said she was still marrying the attacked Bill. It was just the right thing at the right moment to get that emotional wrench reaction.
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Thank you, Ookla! Yes, definitely make Karen post. Anyway, I've been thinking some more about this and why I really want Snape to turn out to be on the side of the good guys. Snape was a character that showed kids that even though someone is mean and unlikeable doesn't mean he's evil. He can still be on the side of the good guys. Characters like this are incredibly rare in children's fiction, and I like what it tells kids about people. If he really is evil, then it teaches children nothing.
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I only started crying when Fleur said she was still marrying the attacked Bill. It was just the right thing at the right moment to get that emotional wrench reaction.
Exactly.
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This webcomic has spoilers! Reader beware.
http://www.qwantz.com/index.pl?comic=582
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Somebody needed to source check those spoilers. ;)
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Seriously, though, that cracked me up. We were doing that at work all day Wednesday because almost everyone in my department had either finished it or was reading it.
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Somebody needed to source check those spoilers. ;)
Hoover over the text for the meta-text, Chimera.
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I meant to post this earlier: http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/books/07/20/harrypotter.readers.ap/index.html
Apparently, Half-blood Prince's ending is causing emotional distress for some readers. What did they think this was--some kid's book?
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What amuses me is www.somethingawful.com.
Last time when OOtP came out they posted the title of their website as "HERMIONE DIES" for a few days. Well, this time unfortunately they picked "DUMBLEDORE DIES", because they didn't think he would.
That part isn't amusing, just kind of bad luck. The hate mail they're receiving about how they completely ruined people's lives forever is the amusing part.
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A few thoughts as I've been thinking over the book in the week after finishing it...
Snape
I think at the core, Snape is good. If he wasn't, then why would he alert the Order in book 5 that Harry was going after Voldemort in the Ministry of Magic? And thinking back on chapter 2, I have to wonder how much trust Voldemort has in Snape. After all, he has Wormtail (not very subtely) spying on Snape. And then we have Narcissa going to Snape. Why? She says that Voldemort trusts Snape a lot. Wait a minute. Something's not adding up there.
My theory? Well, Narcissa says that Draco is given the job of killing Dumbledore as a punishment to Lucius. Perhaps that's not all there is to it. Perhaps Voldemort played things just right so that Narcissa would go to Snape and put him under the Unbreakable Vow, thus FORCING Snape to the Dark Side.
Another thing I'm wondering. Why did Snape turn away from Voldemort before Voldemort fell? the only clue we have is that he regrets informing Voldemort of the prophecy when it turned out that he was going to kill the Potters because of it. Why? He and James were the bitterest of enemies! But wait a minute, Lily spoke in Snape's defense. Lily was good at potions. And she wasn't killed straight off by Voldemort even though she has stood up to him with her husband before, and she's a muggle-born, who the Dark Lord supposedly hates. I can definitely see a possibility of an attraction for her from Snape.
Horcruxes
Or specifically, Harry as a Horcrux. This is a very interesting thought. It explains why Harry has his powers. And it throws in an interesting twist for when Harry tries to kill Voldemort, and then both realize that he still has a Horcrux alive. This would also mean that Harry would probably have to die in order for Voldemort to also finally kick the bucket. :'( But there's still something that doesn't quite sit right. If Voldemort can't possess Harry because of the love spell his mother put on him, then how can part of his soul be living in Harry ever since the attack?
Children's series
What did they think this was--some kid's book?
I agree. I mean with book 4's dark graveyard scene, book 5's angst, and book 6's snogging, this can't be a series that kids would understand everything in. It makes me wonder how this series would be different if it wasn't so popular. I mean the editors wanted Rowling to take out the troll in the bathroom scene in book 1. Now they're fairly hands off. Don't you think they'd at least have taken out some of the above mentioned scenes if it wasn't so popular? What are your thoughts?
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Hey all, its Sminja back from the grave posting on TFOs account....anyways, how about that note in the locket from R.A.B.? I think I know who that is...remember how they talk about Sirius Black's brother earlier in the book (Regulus B lack)?
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This is the only interview she's given that's based on the assumption that you've read the book. All kinds of goodies and hints in here.
http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml
I'm still clinging to the hope that Snape redeems himself even after reading this.
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okay, I'm confused. Why is everyone so obsessed with Snape being ultimately good? He'll probably end up being good, but just because Dumbledore trusted him so much doesn't necessarily mean he was right. He said that he's usually right but when he's wrong he's spectacularly wrong.
My mom brought up that this isn't really a kids book, but then it doesn't have to be. who's reading this book? children yes, but they didn't start with book 6 did they? these are long books and the kids would probably be 10 or 11 before they start the series and it would take them a while to get to this one. So yeah, it's a little old for an elementary school-aged kid, but unless they're reading them out of order, they're not the ones reading them.
And I have no idea what she's going to do about anything in the next book--after this one, I don't really know what to expect. I wouldn't have thought she would kill Harry, but you never know. Hermione might figure a way out of it, but we could all be wrong and he's not a horcrux after all. I'm completely stymied.
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I think it's great that she's taking a year off to give Mackenzie, her new baby, "a whole year of 'me' time," but that means it will be a while before book seven comes out, since she hasn't written it yet. Good for her, bad for me. :-/
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actually, yes, kids are reading it, and they may take a while to get here, but kids who are young NOW are starting to read the series. And it's not going to take them as long to get to book 6 as the others who had to wait for her to write them. YOu're getting a lot of little kids reading this book, however you put it.
Some kids can handle it, some kids can't. Parents need to know their kids well enough to know if they can.
as for snape: I think he's good. Because Dumbledore would have to be just insanely stupid to have trusted him in light of all the contrary evidence. Dumbledore makes mistakes, yes, he didn't know how Malfoy was going to carry off his plan, for example. But this is more than a mistake, this is a basic flaw in his way of thinking. Are you prepared to believe that about Dumbledore? It kind of goes against all the definition of his character.
man, I was still hoping for a Tonks-Harry hookup. Don't give me the age difference argument crap, especially if you don't have a problem with that for Tonks-Lupin.
Why Harry needed to pull a Spider-Man is beyond me though. He needs to not let Ginny follow him but casually just accepts Hermione and Ron? Whatever.
Just for my 2bits, snape had no choice but to kill Dumbledore. If he didn't do it, he would have died. That includes deception. Which then proves that he hadn't killed Dumbledore. Which leaves us with them BOTH dead anyway, since any one of the wizards there on the tower could have easily disposed of Dumbledore in his current condition. If Snape had attacked the other Death Eaters, the four of them together would have overpowered him, I'm sure, then finished off Dumbledore. At least this way, Snape managed to save himself and be some potential future use.
More evidence? Not just the shaking of his hand and hesitance to take the oath at the beginning, but he's actually giving Harry duelling tips at the end. Re-read the scene in that light.
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man, I was still hoping for a Tonks-Harry hookup. Don't give me the age difference argument crap, especially if you don't have a problem with that for Tonks-Lupin.
Just what has you so fascinated with Tonks?
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she rocks so hard.
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Why Harry needed to pull a Spider-Man is beyond me though. He needs to not let Ginny follow him but casually just accepts Hermione and Ron? Whatever.
Yeah. I mentioned it earlier on, but that is exactly how I felt. Get off your high and oh-so-noble horse, Harry--Ginny can take care of herself. And if you accept Ron and Hermione without a thought, you should certainly let Ginny come along.
Perhaps it says something about Harry's character, though, that will become important in the next book.
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See, there is a pattern of Voldemorte systematically isolating Harry. Killing his parents, Sirius, and Dumbledore. It makes sense that Harry will start to distance himself from other people in his life. Ginny is just a start. I think he will also isolate himself from Ron and Hermione, he just hasn't told them yet. Harry has kind of already started to distacne himself from those two.
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I finally finished it tonight. I'm split--I was expecting Snape to turn around and be bad, but I think there are some definite clues that he's not really wanting to do this, but that he was bound by the unbreakable vow.
I nearly cried after finishing it this afternoon. I was depressed all afternoon after finishing, that's for sure. I'm SO SAD about Dumbledore!
As far as it "not being a kids' book"--this series was always designed to grow with its original readers, that it would become more mature as its original readers grew up. Well, it's missed that time period. But so few series are like this, spanning two reading age groups. The Alice series does this--starts in the middle readers and finishes in the teen section. At any rate, this is right on target for a teen audience of an age with Harry, give or take a year or two.
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Just read it, and I'm pleased to say that I predicted everything correctly (except for the Horcrux being a fake). I still hold out in my belief that Snape is good, if only because he's the most interesting character modern fiction has produced in a long, long time, but I guess we'll have to see. Harry being a Horcrux seems pretty obvious to me, I'm surprised there's even debate on the issue.
Ginny: leaving her was stupid but expected, because Harry still has to learn the Final Lesson and use the power of love--which he can't do in book 7 if he's already with the woman he loves. He has to turn her away now so he can get back with her later under appropriately dramatic circumstances.
Fleur: thoroughly annoying character, top to bottom. That whole scene in the hospital was pure cheese, especially Tonks begging Lupin to love her, but nothing was as lame as her poorly-accented determination to stand by her man. I really loved this book, but I hated virtually everything about that scene.
Hogwarts: The school will not be closed, and Harry will be the final DADA teacher. Trust me.
Dumbledore: Sure he's dead, but the portrait of him is already hanging on the wall, specifically for the purpose of lending counsel and experience when necessary. Which is the main role he plays in the books anyway, so no big loss.
Snape: Good but horribly flawed, as always. He will redeem himself, possibly facilitating Harry's ability to kill Voldemort without dying. The fact that he is the Half-Blood Prince was pretty boring, though--I hope something comes of that in book 7, because it was all sound and fury in this one.
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I don't see what everyone's problem is that Harry left Ginny. For one thing, she is a couple years younger than the rest of them, which means she hasn't had as much magical experience as the rest of them, so she would be less likely to be able to fend for herself when compared to Ron or Hermione. For another thing, Ron and Hermione have been through much more with Harry than Ginny has, as far as the previous conflicts in the book go. This further shows that they can handle themselves better than she can, and it also shows that they work well as a team, whereas Ginny is less definite in that area. Furthermore, since they have faced danger together multiple times already, they are, not comfortable, but at least accepting of the fact that one of them may be seriously hurt. Harry has not become accepting of this in Ginny's case, and Ron probably hasn't either. Therefore, her being with the group would probably be more of a liability than an asset.
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The fact of him being the Half-Blood Prince, though, kind of disappoints me about Snape, too, given that he came up with some pretty bad curses, including the really bad one--that should be unforgiveable--that Harry used on Draco. So that kind of reduced Snape in my eyes a little, though I still have hope for him in the end given the arguments that others have made, such as how he didn't kill Harry, but rather continued to give him advice while ranting at him at the end, and how he hesitated before giving the oath.
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uhm.. that wasn't what he said though, was it? Nor do we have any reason whatsoever to believe he's thinking anything remotely like that, do we?
Instead it's all "anyone close to me will be used against me! So uh.. I think I should be dating other chicks." (ok, that last part I put in). Nevermind that everyone knows I'm tight with your whole family already, or that Hermione and Ron are still chilling with me. Or that everyone knows I've got the hots for you so they can still come after you and know they'd be getting to me.
THAT'S what's lame about it.
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We do have a reason to at least suspect that he is thinking something like that, since he has thought it out. Putting yourself in his situation, the thought would at least cross your mind. Again, I already explained why Ron and Hermione should stay with him. As to the fact that people already know he likes her, she is still much less likely to be hurt or taken prisoner, or somehow used against Harry when she is at home, or at Hogwarts, than if she were out with Harry.
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The whole time I was convinced that Tonks had been under the Imperius curse. I mean, losing the ability to shift forms, having a new personality, having a different Patronus, and the fact that nobody was smart enough to suspect her... Or she may equally have been Malfoy under Polyjuice Potion disguise. They both had been growing really thin. One time she appeared behind Harry while he was trying to get into the Room of Requirement where Malfoy was. Anyway, she freaked me out everytime she appeared in the book (and she was everywhere this book). And when she dropped in at Hogwarts to talk to Dumbledore I was certain that she had killed him. So the fact that she confesses her undying love for Lupin at the end of the book is completely out of nowhere. Hinting and hinting and hinting and then inventing something totally different that does not relate to the hints and has not been hinted before... is bad writing, Dan Brown style.
Likewise, Madam Rosmerta did not make any significant appearance until we find out that she's been Imperiused and was behind all the murder attempts. When reading the book a second time, one would not be able to point to all the clues and say, "Ah, should have known," because there were none. I would much, much prefer Tonks being evil than all the trouble Rowling took to dig out of that hole.
It's too bad she also had to resort to a Malfoy-explains-all scene at the end to tie all the loose ends together. Granted, he may be one of the more believable characters for doing that sort of thing. But still.
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Let's not forget that Dumbledore had said that Snape did something huge to prove his loyalty to the good side. I'm guessing that apologizing profusely for giving away the prophecy that killed James and Lily is NOT quite it.
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We do have a reason to at least suspect that he is thinking something like that, since he has thought it out. Putting yourself in his situation, the thought would at least cross your mind. Again, I already explained why Ron and Hermione should stay with him. As to the fact that people already know he likes her, she is still much less likely to be hurt or taken prisoner, or somehow used against Harry when she is at home, or at Hogwarts, than if she were out with Harry.
No, no. We have NO textual evidence to indicate that anything like this thinking happened at all. That's my point.
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http://crap.jinwicked.com/?comic=223
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I don't see what everyone's problem is that Harry left Ginny. For one thing, she is a couple years younger than the rest of them, which means she hasn't had as much magical experience as the rest of them, so she would be less likely to be able to fend for herself when compared to Ron or Hermione. For another thing, Ron and Hermione have been through much more with Harry than Ginny has, as far as the previous conflicts in the book go. This further shows that they can handle themselves better than she can, and it also shows that they work well as a team, whereas Ginny is less definite in that area. Furthermore, since they have faced danger together multiple times already, they are, not comfortable, but at least accepting of the fact that one of them may be seriously hurt. Harry has not become accepting of this in Ginny's case, and Ron probably hasn't either. Therefore, her being with the group would probably be more of a liability than an asset.
I have to disagree with you. First of all, Ginny is only one year younger (She was a fifth year this last year in school). This means she spent the whole year preparing for her O.W.Ls and we remember how much Harry, Ron, and Hermione had to learn for that (granted she didn't get to take her tests because they ended the school year early, but I'm sure she was prepared). Second, she was in the DA which means she had plenty DADA training with Harry. Third she went to the Ministry with Harry at the end of book 5 and overall held her own. Now that she is either 16 or close to and with her fifth year under her, I think that she would be an asset. I don't think that means she will help Harry for most of book 7 (although she might), but I think that she could if Harry gave her a chance. Just cause Harry won't let her help doesn't mean she couldn't. And I don't think she would be a liability.
What happens really depends on whether the school stays open or is closed. If it is closed, what else has she to do. If it stays open, she might need to be at school so she can continue to learn. I think though that Harry will be very much tied to the school in book 7 whether he actually attends the school or not. I think he will have to go back there to get answers he needs to defeat Voldemort, and Ginny might be there to help him when he does.
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Good point. We should also point out that Rowling went out of her way in this book to show us how fiercely capable Ginny really is--she was incredibly good at absolutely everything she did.
As for the school closing, I can't see that happening. Series fiction relies on repetition--certain things are the same in every book. Hogwarts is not something you can just drop in book 7.
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it's a little late in the series to create new settings. The only place that's been used for more than two scenes in a single book is Hogwarts. I don't think that's likely to change. She just put it in there so we'd have discussions like this.
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Well, you're obviously exaggerating. I mean, hello, the burrow, Harry's Aunt's house, the Ministry, Hogsmeade, the train station, The Leaky Cauldron (and all other stores in that area), Sirius's house, etc. Maybe these aren't all used twice in a single book (although a lot are), but why does that matter.
Plus why couldn't she bring up new settings. More than likely Harry won't stay in the same place. She will more likely have him traveling quite a bit in the next book (and part of that will be at Hogwarts). She needs him mobile to complete the quest he needs to complete. She could be bringing up a lot of new settings in the last book.
Fell made a good point, too. Why do you think that Ginny was chosen to be a part of Slug's Club? He was obviously impressed by her ability to use magic. In an interview that JKR gave to Mugglenet and TheLeakyCauldron.org, she points out that she is setting Ginny up to be Harry's equal.
"JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. . . . And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together."
Found on http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml
You can't say that Ginny wouldn't be able to take care of herself when the author says that.
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so I'm not exaggerating. Actually, I guess you could split one of the burrow bits into two scenes in half-blood prince, so perhaps that one has 3. A dozen settings is a very, very low number for a 6 book (so far) series. That's not good or bad, it just shows a reluctance or lack of need for more locales.
But by your argument, then she's not using those already established scenes either. Here's all the ones I can remember.
Diagon Alley: at most, 1 scene per book (not in every book)
Hogsmead: at most, 2 scenes per book, usually 1, and not in every book) (and this is pretty much an extention of Hogwarts)
The horrid aunt and uncle: 2 scenes in one book, usually only 1.
The cave: 1 scene in one book. This one has the highest potential to be used again as a location for a horcrux search.
The burrow, 3 scenes in one book, one or two (usually very brief) scenes in most books, no scenes in book 1.
The quidditch championship field, one extended scene in the whole series.
Ministry: one scene at most, usually none (though it does have one quite extended scene)
The bank: one scene at most, usually none
Train station: once per book. Possibly twice in one, but I can't remember it.
The zoo: one short scene in one book.
The park: one scene in one book (when the dementors come for him).
The Riddle home: two scenes in one book, and then only in a memory.
potential for any of these besides that cave as a scene where searching for the horcrux: very very little. Except the bank. That'd be amusing to have to break into there to get at something. The ministry would also be interesting, but it'd be a jump to convince me Voldemort reasonably stored a horcrux there.
I'm sure there'll be one or two scenes at the Burrow. Perhaps they think about plans there. There'll be 3 or 4 scenes in other place to either retrieve a horcrux or find tehy were wrong. But the guy with the necklace destroyed that horcrux, presumably without Voldemort's knowledge. And the diary and ring are destroyed. That leaves us with 4. If one is harry, that means three to find. Reasonably speaking, I'd say at least one, probably two of those are already at Hogwarts somewhere (there's problems with that theory, but there's problems with lots of things). That means a lot of time at Hogwarts, doing research and exploring.
So, no, I don't think he's going to spend a lot of time away. There's no better place to do research than Hogwarts, and I think at least one other horcrux is there.
My theory is that one of them is in Azkaban. It's been talked about so much, time for us to see it.
I'm not sure I accept the premise that Harry is a horcrux. Tell me when/how Harry was made a horcrux? It wasn't before Voldemort cursed him, or else he wouldn't have tried to kill him. It couldn't be after, I don't think, since Voldemort disencorporated at that point.. when else did he do it? After he was brought back? Most of what I can think of doesn't seem to make much sense.
edit: oh, there's the lighthouse, one scene in one book, and the house of that old lady, one scene in one book, in a memory, and the train: usually one, sometimes two, scenes per book, always pretty short. I guess you could argue that a few of the shops are different locales than Diagon Alley, but then you have to break up Hogwarts into a dozen million different settings, and the porportion of scenes gets weighted even more in that direction.
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although... maybe harry's mother was one. THat could be why Voldemort didn't come for her and partially why he got thrown down when she jumped in the way.
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I don't see how one could say that Ginny is Harry's equal when he taught her. I suppose Rowling can do what she wants, since it is her story, but I think that is poor plotting to first have Harry teach Ginny DADA and then turn around and say she is his equal.
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It's been a year since he taught her. SHe couldn't have caught up in that time? I don't find that unreasonable. -- plus the language of that does not mean necessarily equal in power in that one specific area.
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So I think what you're arguing is JKR isn't going to have a new main setting. That there will be scenes at other places (such as the cave and Snape's house was in HBP), but there will be one main base that Harry will be most of the time and that is Hogwarts. If that is what you mean then I'm not disagreeing with you because more than likely he will be at Hogwarts the most in book 7. All I was saying was there will be events that take place in other places besides the normal places.
I don't believe that the horcruxes are located at Hogwarts. I think that information at Hogwarts will, however, lead Harry to where they are. Therefore, he will be spending a lot of time at Hogwarts. This will also help in Ron and Hermione assisting him. I don't know if they will be attending their seventh year at Hogwarts or not (if it remains open which seems likely), but I can't imagine Hermione not finishing and taking her N.E.W.Ts. I think, though, they will leave Hogwarts quite a bit during the book, even if Ron and Hermione do attend.
As for Harry being a horcrux, check out some of the forums on it. Many have brought up some interesting iideas. We really don't know how the horcrux spell is performed, so it's hard to say exactly, but one theory is that when Voldemort was going to kill Harry, he was planning on using Harry's death for his final horcrux (since it was a very important death to Voldemort). Voldemort had the object that was to be his horcrux nearby ready for the spell. When he cast the curse on Harry, it backfired. What if Harry was made the Horcrux instead of the intended object; would Voldemort know this or still believe that the intended object was still made a horcurx? As for the death needed to create the horcrux, Lily's death could have been used as the trigger, even if unintentionally. Voldemort might have realized his spell was a success, and therefore thought it had worked, just with a different death than intended.
It seems to me that Voldemort completely had the attitude of kill Harry, kill Harry until the fourth book. Then he didn't want Harry dead. Maybe he realized that Harry was a horcrux after the Tri-Wizard Tournament. Then his attitude changed. I'm not sure about this part cause I would need to re-read the books to be sure, but others have claimed that this was the case. Anyway, it's an idea to ponder. I don't hold completely to it, cause I'm not sure, but it sounds possible. I guess we won't really know till we read book 7.
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What you all seem to be overlooking is that the Horcrux they knew of was already destroyed by R.A.B. (presumably Regulus Black). For all we know, he destroyed many of the other Horcruxes. My guess is: the next book will focus on (1)Harry being a Horcrux, and (2) whatever it was at Hogwarts that Voldemort wanted to get his hands on.
That way, other settings won't matter. They'll still leave Hogwarts occasionally, but probably not much more than in the other books.
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although... maybe harry's mother was one. THat could be why Voldemort didn't come for her and partially why he got thrown down when she jumped in the way.
As for that, it's hypothesized that Snape was in love with Lily and had planned with Voldemort that Voldemort would spare Lily as a reward for Snape. Then after the tragedy of James and Harry being killed, Snape would swoop in and act like a hero. This means that Snape might have been there that night. Then when she was not saved, this is what motivates him to go to the other side when Voldemort kills Lily. It's possible.
I don't see how one could say that Ginny is Harry's equal when he taught her. I suppose Rowling can do what she wants, since it is her story, but I think that is poor plotting to first have Harry teach Ginny DADA and then turn around and say she is his equal.
I agree with e. It doesn't mean she is as powerful as him, but it does mean she can handle whatever she needs to to help him. She has the strength in her to do it. Also, considering she impressed the new potions teacher enough to be in his club, I think it shows that she has great ability as a witch. She may not be AS good as Harry in DADA, but she is very good for her age.
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Plus, Harry taught Hermione and Ron in the DA as well. Are you saying that they aren't good enough to help him since he taught them as well?
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(Sorry for the third post in a row, but I can't edit my posts.)
You should also not this from the interview with JKR:
"MA: Does she [Ginny] have a larger importance; the Tom Riddle stuff, being the seventh girl —
JKR: The backstory with Ginny was, she was the first girl to arrive in the Weasley family in generations, but there's that old tradition of the seventh daughter of a seventh daughter and a seventh son of a seventh son, so that's why she's the seventh, because she is a gifted witch. I think you get hints of that, because she does some pretty impressive stuff here and there, and you'll see that again. "
Note the word "again" at the end. We're going to see more of Ginny in the future.
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As for that, it's hypothesized that Snape was in love with Lily and had planned with Voldemort that Voldemort would spare Lily as a reward for Snape. Then after the tragedy of James and Harry being killed, Snape would swoop in and act like a hero. This means that Snape might have been there that night. Then when she was not saved, this is what motivates him to go to the other side when Voldemort kills Lily. It's possible.
So, this brings up a couple of ideas. If I'm right, and lily was to be the horcrux, then it failed, right? or else he killed it. Strike one more horcrux off the liste we have to find (I think having 4 or 5 goals to go for will make a very long book, longer than we've even seen, so either RAB has found more than one, or else more than two have been destroyed or left unmade in the first place). If Snape was there, as you theorize, and snape was going to save lily or what have you. Maybe SNAPE is a horcrux, which explains his fascination with the dark side and why Voldemort trusts him so much. And Snape telling Dumbledore that would be why Dumbledore trusts him.
ah.. theories theories.
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Incidentally, I encourage you to register, HP Fan, and then introduce yourself (http://www.timewastersguide.com/boards/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1051196804) and read the FAQ (http://www.timewastersguide.com/boards/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1080380396)
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So, this brings up a couple of ideas. If I'm right, and lily was to be the horcrux, then it failed, right? or else he killed it. Strike one more horcrux off the liste we have to find (I think having 4 or 5 goals to go for will make a very long book, longer than we've even seen, so either RAB has found more than one, or else more than two have been destroyed or left unmade in the first place). If Snape was there, as you theorize, and snape was going to save lily or what have you. Maybe SNAPE is a horcrux, which explains his fascination with the dark side and why Voldemort trusts him so much. And Snape telling Dumbledore that would be why Dumbledore trusts him.
ah.. theories theories.
I doubt that Lily or Snape are horcruxes. JKR has estimated that book 7 won't be longer than book 5 (the longest), so it is probably a good assumption that some of the horcruxes have been taken care of previously, but Harry still has to figure this out.
I doubt Snape is a horcrux because Dumbledore mentions the problems of a living thing being a horcrux because they can think (I can't quote cause I am not near my book). I also believe it is not a good idea because, as you mentioned about Lily, living things can die and when they do, assumably, that part of Voldemort's soul dies with it. I don't think Voldemort would use a living thing on purpose. It is easier to control and use an inanimate object. I believe Dumbledore said something about the reason he might have used Nagini for a horcrux was because he was dying from the curse he tried to put on Harry and wanted to make his last horcrux before he died. Maybe there wasn't any other object near by with enough importance for a part of his soul to reside.
Even so, I really don't believe that Nagini was made into a horcrux. I think that this was only an hypothesus of Dumbledore's.
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Maybe only the scar, and not Harry as a whole, is a Horcrux. Then instead of killing himself, he'd just have to undergo some sort of cosmetic surgery to get rid of the Dark Lord, eh? :P
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Beverly Hills Plastic Surgery (r). We'll take care of all your evil spirits!
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Maybe only the scar, and not Harry as a whole, is a Horcrux. Then instead of killing himself, he'd just have to undergo some sort of cosmetic surgery to get rid of the Dark Lord, eh? :P
I have heard this theory, but I don't understand how some of his skin could be a horcrux, but not all of him. I think that mostly people are holding on to this because they believe that if Harry is a horcrux he'll have to die to kill Voldemort and of course no one wants Harry to die. (If JKR kills off Harry in the end, I will swear off the series forever. I think that would be just horrible.) But considering how little the wizarding world knows about horcruxes, I can't imagine that there isn't a way to take out Voldemort's soul without killing Harry. They have just never had to try before. But I'm sure there is a way. I just don't see how the horcrux could be in his scar alone. We'll just have to see though. There is really no way to tell at this point.
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you'll swear off the series... after you've bought all the books in it?
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The only thing that would make me mad is if Snape turns out to be evil. Anything else, including Harry's death, is fine with me.
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what if snape and mcgonagel are really harry's parents and they didn't recognize each other after their sex-change operations?
oh, and Harry's Aunt is Voldemort.
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you'll swear off the series... after you've bought all the books in it?
Yes, swear it off as in never read them again. So what if I have all the books. I won't be able to enjoy them if I know at the end Harry dies. I just don't see the purpose of it. Dumbledore's death had very good reasons. Harry needed to go off on his own and make his own decisions rather than relying on Dumbledore's advice and guidance. But I don't see the point in Harry dying (unless she did something to prove it was needed other than to kill Voldemort cause, hey, she's the author and she can decide whether Harry needs to die to kill Voldemort, so that's not a good enough reason for me).
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*shrug* I don't think Rowling will be affected by that.
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*shrug* I don't think Rowling will be affected by that.
It's not a protest. I'm not saying that it would somhow affect JKR. I'm just saying that I would be very disappointed if the series ended that way. But it is really a non-issue since we won't know the ending for another 2 to 3 years, so let's get on a different subject.
What was your favorite part of book 6 (favorite scene or whatever)? This is for anyone, obviously, not just e.
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I don't think Harry is a horcrux.
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My favorite part was Dumbledore's dying conversation with Malfoy. I also like the memory of the Gaunts' house.
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But... Rowling said that one of the "little three" is going to die in the seventh book. So IT MUST BE HARRY!!! She's resorting to a Matrixy twist!! If nothing else, Ron and Hermione have to stay alive because they're bound to get married.
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Could you reference where you found that quote (preferably a web link to the site)? I'd like to see it. I haven't read anything about that and there are a lot of rumors going around the internet on what JKR has and has not said. Reference, please.
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But Rowling said that Snape and Dumbledorer are really the same person! So it must have been an illusion that Harry saw!
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Well, Rowling also said that the entire book is an allusion to the American political climate in the turn-of-the-century Midwest. The many references to Gringotts clearly represents the Gold Standard, while the unicorns' silver blood indicates a shift toward silver. Dumbledore, of course, is a strong proponent of Bimetalism, and the Triwizard tournament is representative of the 1900 presidential election (Harry being McKinley). I don't think it even needs mentioning that Draco Malfoy is William Jennings Bryan (especially considering Draco's "don't transmogrify me on a cross of gold" speech in Book Three).
Sorry, I don't have the exact reference, but I swear JKR said it. You could probably Google it.
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Hey, did you guys hear that if you watch the Harry Potter movies with the sound off, and play Dark Side of the Moon in the background, they match up?
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I really really just want to know how come the house elves can Apparate inside the school while all the powerful wizards can't. ???
(As soon as I track down the source of that quote, HP Fan, I'll hand it over. Someone just alluded to it on my LJ and I was being facetious anyway, but I'm sure it's gotta be out there or he wouldn't have said it.)
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Maybe it is because their magics are different. Wizards use wands, while elves don't need them. The protection against apparation could be only against wizarding magic.
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There's a thought. But I don't think wizards use their wands to Apparate, either. As I understand, they just stand there and think really hard about the three D's that stand for different things each time--Dingbats, Death, and Detergent or something like that. Anyway, it's a wonder none of them left their clothes behind or took a chunk of the floor with them while Apparating.
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Well, Rowling also said that the entire book is an allusion to the American political climate in the turn-of-the-century Midwest. The many references to Gringotts clearly represents the Gold Standard, while the unicorns' silver blood indicates a shift toward silver. Dumbledore, of course, is a strong proponent of Bimetalism, and the Triwizard tournament is representative of the 1900 presidential election (Harry being McKinley). I don't think it even needs mentioning that Draco Malfoy is William Jennings Bryan (especially considering Draco's "don't transmogrify me on a cross of gold" speech in Book Three).
Sorry, I don't have the exact reference, but I swear JKR said it. You could probably Google it.
So it's jsut a major rip off of the Wizard of Oz?
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Just picked up and read the book. Left me breathless. I knew Dumbledore would die about halfway through since he had given Harry just about all the advice he needed.
I wanted to smack Ron and Hermione. JKR really knows how to write high-school relationships. They were spot-on.
Instead of going on and on, I'll basically just say that I agree with virtually everything that Fell has put forth. I think Snape is good and that Dumbledore was begging for Snape to kill him so Draco could still be redeemed. Snape remains my favorite character.
And, as Fell said, Harry and Ginny have to break up so he can get back together with her in Book 7 and learn the final lessons on love.
Great book.
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That whole Wizard of Oz thing has been pretty much debunked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wonderful_Wizard_of_Oz#The_book_as_a_parallel_on_populism
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Yes, but that's not very funny at all.
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It may debunk The Wizard of Oz, but it doesn't debunk Harry Potter.
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NOTHIN' debunks Harry Potter.
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Harry Potter ROCKS!
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65!
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I like to read the books first, then listen to them on CD in my car or while I get ready in the morning. Jim Dale, who performs ALL the voices on the audio versions, is amazing--it's his voices that I hear in my head when I'm reading, not the movie voices.
Anyway, I'm picking up on all sorts of things the second time through. I just listened to the part where Harry and Dumbledore discuss Merope, Voldemort's mom, and why she died. Harry wonders about it, since she was a witch and obviously had some power since she enchanted Tom Riddle. Dumbledore tells him that he has some speculations, one of them being that because a broken heart or unrequited love can take a serious toll on your ability to do magic, Merope no longer had the power. (Sorry not to have the direct quote--too lazy to find my book and type it out.) As soon as he said that, I thought "Tonks." Since now I know that it was because of unrequited love she wasn't able to morph and all that, I picked up on this explanation from Dumbledore for both Merope and Tonks. So JK Rowling was being consistent within her magic system on that point. I love when I realize things like this!
It is always interesting the second time through to recognize little plot hints such as this--very subtle, but definitely there.
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No way, Chimera! Tonks was evil the whole time! Everytime she showed up in the book, I had a heart attack. The whole being-in-love-with-Lupin thing came out of nowhere.
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I thought that too, until, as I said above, I reread it. Now, that little obscure comment by Dumbledore may not have been a flashing sign by any means, but that is one of the things I like about JK. She is often subtle in how things tie together--but usually if I reread a book I can see where, from a writer's perspective, she lays down the bricks that make up the whole road. This has happened to me on several occasions when I reread one of the books--where something that seems insigificant in passing becomes terribly important. Like when Harry meets Bode in the elevator on the way to his hearing in book 5, and later remembers after Bode is strangled to death by Devil's Snare, and then both details are important because it turns out Bode is an Unspeakable in the Hall of Mysteries and Voldemort was trying to make him get the prophecy. I mean, that is some major plotting. And even though I may not be able to jump to that conclusion, I recognize that she laid the tracks that lead there.
So I don't think that this came out of nowhere, not on the second reading (though I did a bit on the first).
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See, I was thinking all along that Tonks was in love with someone. There were plenty of clues, not least of which was Harry and his friends wondering if she'd been in love with Sirius.
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Okay, I wanted to get my thoughts down, so I'm writing this as I'm finishing reading everyone else's opinions.
Harry as a horcrux makes so much sense, but I never would have thought it up on my own. The only problem I see is that if Harry is a horcrux then it had to have been unintential because he intended to kill Harry, to use Harry's murder to create his last Horcrux.
The thing I really want to know though is what was the reason behind the gleam in Dumbledore's eyes at the end of Goblet of Fire when Harry told him that Voldemort had used his blood in the spell, and was therefore no longer vulnerable to Harry's touch? And how is that all going to be affected on July 30th (or is it 31st?) when Harry comes of age?
I had actually been rooting for Harry and Ginny to get together since Chamber of Secrets, only because I identified with the social backward young Ginny (not so much with the more-action-than-you-could-shake-a-stick-at Ginny). I think the reason Harry felt he had to distance himself from her is that
(1) He can intellectually accept the possibility of horrid things happening to Ron and Hermione, because he's not romantically involved with them. He wouldn't make stupid mistakes if they were in danger. With Ginny, the situation would probably be very different.
(2) He can conceivably distance himself from Ginny, since their close relationship is new, but not from Ron and Hermione.
But I still think that Ginny will be used against Harry. I'm interested to see if Ginny will object to being dropped in the last book, since she seemed pretty accepting of it. And it's not like Ginny will be unable to do anything useful to support Harry from the homefront.
As for the necklace horcrux being destroyed, where is the proof one way or the other? Nothing has been said that proves the horcrux was destroyed. RAB could easily have died before he figured out how to do it. I'd like it to be Regulus, but Ameilia Bones is also a good option. I don't think Rowling has come out and said whether or not we've been introduced to the character, so it could be someone completely new.
Lily/Snape theory: Snape in love with a Mudblood? I just don't see this happening.
Actually, I really don't agree that Snape is "good." Snape has never done a nice/good/benevolent thing in six books, except for the time he kept Harry from falling off his broom, in the first book, before anyone knows for sure if Voldemort is still alive. Snape committed cold-blooded murder.
Earlier in the book we're told that killing "rips the soul apart." I don't believe Dumbledore would have asked Snape to commit murder. Draco didn't have to kill Dumbledore to survive. Other methods to save Draco could have been attempted and should have been if Snape really is "good." People who are "good" don't kill defenseless, unarmed people just to save their own life.
I think Snape was using Legilmancy to learn what Harry was going to cast before he cast it, and he wasn't trying to teach Harry anything, just make himself feel superior by putting Harry down. I don't buy that he "saved" Harry by not killing him. It makes a lot of sense to me that Voldemort wouldn't want anyone else to kill Harry. If they did, they would have succeeded where Voldemort has repeated failed, making them a terrible threat to his power. Snape was following Voldemort's orders.
I'm interested to know what other people feel is good about Snape. You see the character of a man in the way he treats others. Look at the way he treats Neville. He acts exactly as he did in High School. There has been no progression in his character since he is first introduced.
I'm not saying that Snape is neccessary going to end book 7 evil. I would like to see Harry smush him into the ground. However, if he does end up good, I think it will be a change of heart that he has in book 7. I don't think he's good now.
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Why not in love with a mudblood? After all, Voldemort is a mudblood.
as for Draco getting away without killing. i'm really interested to hear how you believe a 16 year old with self doubts was goign to get away from three of the most dangerous people on the planet when they're standing within arms reach.
Snape was not using legilmancy. he SPECIFICALLY stated that he would be able to block Harry's spells as long as he is saying them out loud. ie, "Stop telling everyone what you're doing so they can stop you." There is no other use put to the single new skill Rowling introduces for the students in this book: casting spells silently. And harry hasn't learned to even try it yet.
snape has spied on voldemort. So he's petty and domineering. That makes him evil? That counteracts risking his life to spy on the bad guy? sorry don't buy it. Neither do I buy, as I said before, that Dumbledore is an idiot who doesn't pay any attention whatsoever to the evidence presented to him by all his reasonable allies. The is sOMETHING about snape we don't know, and I'd bet cold cash that it's something that makes him better than you think of him.
The whole series is about avoiding judgements on first impressions. yet that is still how you're treating snape after 6 books. no, I don't think that Rowling is going that route.
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Why not in love with a mudblood? After all, Voldemort is a mudblood.
Umm, no he's not. His mother was a witch.
As for Snape, I disagree that there has been any hard proof that he was earnestly spying on the Dark Lord, as opposed to letting Dumbledore know of things of little importance at Voldemort's orders. And my opinion of Snape is no longer based on a first impression, there have been six books of lack of progression in his character. That being said, I reserve the right to be wrong. ;)
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My strongest point is *still* Dumbledore. It's too obvious that Snape's a bad guy. I CAN'T accept that Dumbledore is stupid enough to let someone so obviously evil, whom is constantly (and with good reason) spoken of poorly by others Dumbledore trusts, be so central to the order. There has to be something EXTREMELY compelling that he's done. How much do you *really* know about Snape? Very little.
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Harry as a horcrux makes so much sense, but I never would have thought it up on my own. The only problem I see is that if Harry is a horcrux then it had to have been unintential because he intended to kill Harry, to use Harry's murder to create his last Horcrux.
Snape was following Voldemort's orders.
I agree that making Harry a horcrux was unintentional.
However, when Snape is leaving Harry on Voldemort's orders just because only Voldemort wants to kill him? I don't buy that. Snape easily bested Harry when he came after him. What was to stop Snape from tying Harry up and using locomotor corpus on him to take him to Voldemort right then? With all the upheaval and the fact that nobody was there watching Harry's back, it would have been relatively easy.
No, I think Snape was acting on Voldemort's orders to leave Harry be because Voldemort has finally realized that Harry is a horcrux. An unintentional one, absolutely. But the signs are all there nonetheless. Since Voldemort had planned to use Harry's death to create a Horcrux (and had probably cast the spell to create it when AK backfired), it'll be interesting to see what object he was going to use to contain it and whether it's still resting in the rubble of Godric's Hollow.
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"Leave him to me" is the most classic, and lame, of supervillain blunders. I will be sorely disappointed if Snape is evil and left it to Voldemort without doing anything. that would be exceedingly, well, stupid.
Even if the above situation is accurate, wouldn't it *still* make sense to bring Harry back so that Voldemort can have him guarded, rather than having him out there where he can still work against him?
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And how exactly would Voldemort go about guarding Harry? He doesn't quite seem to have the resources to do that. Or at least not the resources to keep away everyone who would be looking for him.
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oh, I dunno, if perhaps, he had him tied up and locked ina trunk and ensorcelled it to prevent apparation (doable, they do it at Hogwarts) and just made it a secret location. No, it's not a perfect protection, but it beats the pants off letting him wander around in the custody of people who want to help him.