Timewaster's Guide Archive
Departments => Books => Topic started by: Mad Dr Jeffe on May 03, 2004, 02:01:23 PM
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yeah well for some reason I missed it while I was scanning... but theres value in making a Mark II page to break it up for others
Topsail & Battleaxe: A Voyage in the Wake of the Vikings
by Tom Cunliffe 1988
The opening paragraph-
"Mike came scrambling aft along the steeply canted deck. It was 3.00am on an early august morning. There was ice in his eyebrows. His bare feet gripped well enough, but there was a blueness about them that would have done little to reassure his mother, if she could have seen him. Fog Swirled past the bowsprit as Hirta smashed into a wave sending freezing spray ripping across the foredeck like shrapnel. Mike sank grtefully into the cockpit qnd made the classic 'after you' gesture to Patrick who was clambering out onto the streaming deck, with an expression like an infantryman going over the top."
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isn't that the same as the so... what's everyone reading? (http://www.timewastersguide.com/boards/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=books;action=display;num=1035778613) thread?
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Built to Last. It's an interesting look at companies that have been around for at least 50 years and are still doing well financially.
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What are the biggies?
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HunterLab
:D
ok, so i'm just plugging my own company. We've been around 50 years and still going. But we're not a "big" company.
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/me obtenebrates >:(
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what word are you mis-spelling there?
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obtenebrate
v.t. darken; cast shadow over
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its Latin
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and english mainly because its anglicised
the noun form is
Obtenebration
\Ob*ten`e*bra"tion\, n. [L. obtenebrate to make dark.] The act of darkening; the state of being darkened; darkness. [Obs.]
In every megrim or vertigo, there is an obtenebration joined with a semblance of turning round. --Bacon.
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HP, Sony, Disney, 3M, Marriott, Walmart, Johnson & Johnson, and a few more. They pick a comparison company in order to extrapolate the business practices they have in common (example: a core ideal for the company, i.e. "The customer is our priority"), but don't generally show up in the comparison companies. It's well written, so an enjoyable read.
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fun... I'll have to check it out...
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Mitch Albom "The Five People You Meet In Heaven"
It's really good. I'm also in the middle of C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity," which is very thought provoking.
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I just finished SOMETIMES THE MAGIC WORKS, the Terry Brooks writing book.
It was pretty good. Maybe I'll do a review.
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Highlanders: A History of the Gaels
I'm assuming this will give me a good general picture of the Scottish history, but it is FAR from being objective and ground breaking research. After about 50 pages, it's clear that he's mostly going to express his opinion on various historical stories and make an assumption that Scottish Presbyterianism is better than any other form of Christianity. While he has said he's going to have biases, that doesn't make it ok to be so blatant. Anyway, it's not annoying me enough to stop reading, but I probably shan't recommend it for serious history readers, since it's not very serious.
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Colors in the Dreamweaver's Loom, by Beth Hilgartner
Since I finished my other Beth Hilgartner book last night, I can safely say that while she does great characters, her flaw as an author is that she doesn't know how to end a book. They always just STOP. And since this one was written in 1986 and the other one was written in 2000, it's not something she's grown out of.
If I ever meet her I'm going to rip the page out of the dictionary that has "denouement" on it, circle it, and hand it to her.
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I am reading the osprey guide to the Assyrians, and the Exalted RPG corebook.
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Today in the mail I got "Juniper" by Monica Furlong. Oddly I like this book, the prequel, much better than I like Wise Child, the first book.
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The most recent book I've read was "The DaVinci Code" by Don Brown. Or Dan Brown, don't quite recall at the moment.
An in depth murder mystery with secret societies and and religious implications, this book kept me hooked since the second page at least.
Before that I read the entire Dark Elf collection by R.A. Salvatore.
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I'm finally reading The Chronicles of Narnia. I never read them as a kid, and my wife convinced me to do it. I'm reading them in series order, not the order they were written in, and I liked the first book (Magician's Nephew) better than the second (The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe). My wife says that's blasphemy.
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Ah, Narnia, spectacular series. I think I've read Lewis more than I have Tolkien.
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As you can probably guess if you know the subject of my paper due tomorrow (draft, I mean--finished paper won't be done till Dec.), I've been reading The Princess and the Goblin reeeeaaallly slowly. The first half of the book is about twice as thick now because of all the sticky notes in it. I need to go faster and just pick out the most important things. Then I have to reread The Princess and Curdie, doing the same thing.
Oh--they were written by George MacDonald, if you were wondering. And they're really good.
And it occurs to me that I've posted this same book under What are you reading before. And yes, I'm still reading them.
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True confession--
I started reading this Anita Sheffield (sp?) novel last night, because I was in the mood for junk fiction, and my roommate handed it to me. And then I stayed up until 3:30 reading the entire book. I got sucked into sappy Mormon fiction! And worse, it was sappy Mormon *Christmas* fiction!! Worse yet, it was corny, badly written, sappy Mormon Christmas fiction.
I feel so cheap.
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I would imagine you mean Anita Stansfield, Queen Mother of LDS Romance.
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Yeah, that's it.
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Here's some interesting trivia: Anita Stansfield has sold more books than any other LDS author, ever. While other authors, like Gerald Lund, have had individual books that sell really well, Stansfield continually cranks out crap en masse, and people suck it up like it was crack cocaine.
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Why do people say crack cocaine? I always thought that the one was slang for the other, and that grouping them together was stupid. Am I wrong, or is Mustard stupid? Or both?
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Yeah, my roommie (I love her, don't get me wrong) owns all her books. She wants to bring them all down from Roy (where she's from) after break because she thinks I should read them. Eeek.
Stansfield's characters can do some interesting things with dialogue. Like "snarl" it "lightly." And "insist" it. And my favorite, "almost smile" it. And this is the reason I slept until noon today.
And besides, relationships never happen the way this one did. Partly because the guy wasn't even a guy--he was some bizzare fantasy guy who doesn't even act like a person would. He is the reason relationships don't work out, because people read these books and confuse these ridiculous images with reality.
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I've always thought that crack cocaine refered to the form the cocaine was in, but I could be wrong.
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What was the name of the book?
And I always understood crack cocaine was a cheaper, street version of cocaine.
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A Christmas Melody
And the main character's name was Melody.
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I always thought it refered to it being high quality, uncut...
Dictionary.com:
crack cocaine
n.
Chemically purified, very potent cocaine in pellet form that is smoked through a glass pipe and is considered highly and rapidly addictive.
Guess I win.
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you win a point. What are you going to do with it?z
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This is not just a Christmas story. It's a touching novel of discovery, renewal, and commitment to eternal principles of love and faith. What Melody learns about Christmas--and about herself--is the greatest gift of all.
That sounds awesome.
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wow. I'm going to drop my own current manuscript and write a book of discovery, renewal and commitment to eternal principals.
It shall be about my navel.
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What you learn about your navel--and about yourself--will be the greatest gift of all.
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Haha. Did you find the part of the blurb where it promises that you will be spiritually edified for reading it?
I mean, bad fiction and spiritual enlightenment too!
I mean, I must have enjoyed the thing. I was up late enough reading it. But that's what disturbs me. I shouldn't enjoy something that badly written that I know is just subtley poisoning me against reality. It's like chick movies. It's addictive.
I think I might be better off reading about SE's navel.
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it is the gift that keeps on giving. To everyone.
There's nothing wrong with enjoying smarmy, overly-sentimental crap (one of my mentors in life used to tell me that sentimentality is the enemy of art, however). Just as long as you recognize it for what it is.
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The book, or your navel?
Yeah, I'm just disappointed in myself for buying into the poisonous, female-directed, female perpetuated nonsense that I hate so much. I could have read a book about people who act like people. But no.
But then, that's what the stuff is designed to do--suck you in and make you feel all girly. It's a poor substitute for reality though, if you ask me. No matter what that reality is, at least it's *real*.
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I keep resisting the temptation to respond again so soon, but you keep adding on.
So I'll just say, my navel, primarily.
Next time, you'll be sucked into my navel. and you'll learn about love and faith.
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--I can't wait. *note sarcasm
--Resistance is futile.
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The neat thing is that Anita Stansfield's website has the statement: "Romance with a real-life edge."
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HA!
While I was eating lunch just now I had a thought...
Apparently to write Mormon romance, you don't have to create a good plot, nor have believable characters, nor believable dialogue. You don't have to write well. All you have to do is be schmaltzy enough to convince poor unsuspecting Mormon girls that what you're writing IS reality...and that if they wait for prince charming long enough, he'll show up and be as perfect as the men in your book.
Man, I'm trying to break into the wrong market.
Of course, if I had written a Christmas for Melody I'd then have to jump out a window, and that might defeat the purpose.
On the other hand I'd be making money, so really it's a question of how much I'd be willing to sell my soul for.
Jeez...I'm extra sarcastic today. I need to cut it out.
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mmm soul geld. I suggest a metric ton of gold wrapped in a platinum shell cast to look like a big mac, or a packet of chicken mcnuggets and dipping sauce.
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Apparently to write Mormon romance, you don't have to create a good plot, nor have believable characters, nor believable dialogue. You don't have to write well. All you have to do is be schmaltzy enough to convince poor unsuspecting Mormon girls that what you're writing IS reality...and that if they wait for prince charming long enough, he'll show up and be as perfect as the men in your book.
Oh, wait. Is this is where I - the Married Mormon Girl - am supposed to jump in and insist to you (the Skeptical Single Girl) that it really DOES happen that way? Or something?
Sorry, i can't remember how it goes, I haven't been able to stomach the idea of trying to read anything by Jack Weyland or Anita or any mormon romance-what-have-you since I was eleven or so. or.
Though if my relationship were in a mormon romance novel, would J.T. have gotten been allowed to keep his beard and ponytail?
And is gotten a word?
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crack cocaine
But then, that's what the stuff is designed to do--suck you in and make you feel all girly. It's a poor substitute for reality though, if you ask me. No matter what that reality is, at least it's *real*.
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y'know, your description pretty much reminds me of any romance fiction (yes, I've read three, one over the shoulder of that cute girl in study hall).
the danger really isn't that they'll reject someone because he isn't "perfect" but that they become self deceptive and when people are against their relationship, they come to idealize it even more, leading to relationships with people who aren't good ENOUGH, but whom they deceive themselves about.
At least, that's the sort of thing I've seen.
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On the other hand I'd be making money, so really it's a question of how much I'd be willing to sell my soul for.
I haven't been able to stomach the idea of trying to read anything by Jack Weyland or Anita or any mormon romance-what-have-you since I was eleven or so.
At what point am I supposed to remind everyone that I write LDS romantic comedies?
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Of course, I pride myself on not writing Anita Stansfield-esque books, but still.
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a romantic comedy is not the same as a "romance" though. And that's the key.
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Yes, there is a substantial difference between the book I once copyedited for Covenant, in which, by page 50, the protagonist had been abandoned by his real mother, abused by his foster mother, beaten by his foster mother's live-in boyfriend, so poor and neglected he slept on a filthy mattress in the kitchen, was thrown out at the age of 12 and became a prostitute on the streets to support his drug addiction, found religion when he nearly died at 18, became a member of the church, got a PhD (yes, a PhD), got a girlfriend (the love of his life, of course), gets engaged, and gets a brain tumor.
And that was the first 50 pages. Then they have a mystery to solve, in which he finds out his *real* family is really rich and Italian, so they go antique shopping in Italy.
No, Mustard, yours are actually realistic, and funny on purpose. I was laughing through that book, but I don't think that was the intention.
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Holy smokes. Was that a book that was accepted by Covenant?
I read an LDS romance about a year ago, that was decent enough, though nothing special. Then, five pages from the end, after the guy and girl getting happily married, the guy is diagnosed with serious, debilitating depression. Two pages later, he worked through it, and everything was okay.
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wow. I find that premise of recovering from severe depression in two pages nearly offensive. Certainly ignorant. Bad story-telling is hardly the worse crime there.
It sounds more like a mood swing than a cure.
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I have an editor buddy (not my editor -- a different one) at Covenant, who is a 30 something unmarried male. He can't stand having to read romance novels all the time. I think he's going to snap one day and take an Uzi to Enrichment Night. He's requested to work solely on children's books, but he still has to read a lot of romance stuff as part of the submission process.
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Yes, it was actually accepted by them. And it was on the shelves a few months later. ::)
The thing is, Covenant has made their bread and butter in the Mormon Harlequin market. It's a niche market that has an audience. I'm embarrassed that there are so many of us that like such trash.
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Oh, wait. Is this is where I - the Married Mormon Girl - am supposed to jump in and insist to you (the Skeptical Single Girl) that it really DOES happen that way? Or something?
No no no no no. I'm not doubting romance. Or relationships. I just don't think it happens the way it happened in this book, where the guy sees the girl and automatically knows that she's the one for him and then as soon as he convinces her they live happily ever after. I mean really.
And Mustard--I was only saying that apparently you *can* write Mormon romance that way. I wasn't trying to slight *all* Mormon fiction. Just the badly written stuff. Perhaps I should read your book instead next time...
It's a niche market that has an audience. I'm embarrassed that there are so many of us that like such trash.
Yeah. That's what gets me. Why did I stay up all night reading the thing? To compensate I stayed up last night reading a Tamora Pierce book, which was much better written, but I put it down at 12:30 and went to bed. I finished it in the morning, rather than depriving myself of sleep. I just don't get it.
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I knew after our 3rd date that I was going to marry my wife. It's rare, but it does happen.
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Emotional string-pulling is practically the oldest literary tradition in the world, and certainly not unique to Mormons. Romance is the best-selling category in virtually every bookstore in America
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I knew after our 3rd date that I was going to marry my wife. It's rare, but it does happen.
yeah and J.T. knew 3 weeks after meeting me he was going to marry me.
I don't deny that it happens, I just resent the way that some authors muck it up.
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I maintain that knowing someone for three weeks is very different from seeing them for three seconds without *ever* talking to them. I'm sorry, but I don't believe the spirit works that way. It might say, "go talk to that person," but at least in my experience it doesn't say, "see that person over there who you've never seen before? You are going to marry them." Ridiculous.
And as for it not being just Mormon fiction, that's very true, but I think it irks me more in schmatzy (as in not all, just some) Mormon fiction because they take spiritual things and twist them to pull on your heart strings, and portray it as reality.
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That's true--the commercialization of the spirit is the same reason that bad Mormon music bothers me more than bad mainstream music. I suppose it's the same in books.
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On a mildly related note, I've found it's a lot harder for me to get spiritually involved at church anymore. If I'm in a particularly good lesson, or hear an interesting scripture, the first thing to pop into my head is how that would apply to a book I'm working on.
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Yeah, but there's a difference between expressing the spirit in art and using that expression of it to manipulate people, I think.
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I maintain that knowing someone for three weeks is very different from seeing them for three seconds without *ever* talking to them. I'm sorry, but I don't believe the spirit works that way. It might say, "go talk to that person," but at least in my experience it doesn't say, "see that person over there who you've never seen before? You are going to marry them." Ridiculous.
Isn't that what happened to Jacob though? And what happened Isaac. Except with Isaac, it wasn't even him, it was his SERVANT. So, yes, yes it CAN work that way. Or else you don't believe the scriptures.
But the fact that it happens so frequently in literature isn't realizstic, and gets quite annoying. It does decieve people into thinking it happened when it hasn't.
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But speaking of that: it would be neat for Anita Stansfield to write a novel where somebody's servant sees a girl and falls in love at first sight by proxy.
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Mustard, I'd like to complain that your book is too intelligent. The copy I bought for my mother for Christmas has completely disappeared, forcing me to go to Deseret Book and buy another copy.
How did you do that?
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Were I anyone else on this board, I would blame it on the Ninja Monkeys.
However, the truth is that reading the book bores you into a semi-conscious state, and you can't ever remember where you left it.
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It's the Mormon equivelent of Heroin.
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If only it were half that addicitive.
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that wouldn't be mormon heroin.
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Hmm...Jacob. Good point. So what we have here is an overrepresentation that makes the exception look like the rule.
One of these days I'm going to have to locate Mustard's book and read it. It won't be this week, cause I imagine it's pretty hard to find in California.
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I'm not sure where you are in California, but there are Deseret Books in Orange County, Sacramento, and San Diego. And there are Seagull Books in Los Angeles and Oakland.
Just trying to be helpful... :)
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Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
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Just to be myself...
But the fact that it happens so frequently in literature isn't realizstic, and gets quite annoying. It does decieve people into thinking it happened when it hasn't.
The equivelant comment would be to say that spys getting betrayed by their superiors in thrillers is an overrepresentation. Its a book, a work of fiction, so it does not have to be statistically correct about how things work - fiction is generally about the exceptions. And having the entire genre do it is just like the whole of the fantasy genre having magic - its an intristic part of it.
:)
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True, but a genre that deals with allegedly real situations is bound to create more real-world expectations than a genre that deals with fantastical worlds and characters the readers will never have to deal with. The fallacy of the evil overlord monologue may be a misrepresentation, and it may lead me into trouble if I ever meet an actual evil overlord and expect him to give a monologue--but that happens so rarely that it's not going to matter. Any misconceptions I have about dating and marriage, on the other hand, are going to cause problems on a daily basis.
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See, if you were a PROPER nerd, then the Evil Overlord situation would be more likely to happen.
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Fish, moving back to the previous topic, are there any romances that you've read that you DID like? I have the conundrum of liking a good romance novel but having very harsh judgement of what is good and what is not.
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Yeah, see, that's the paradox. It's not that I don't like the books, I just don't think that I ought to, because they're so bad.
But romance that I think is actually well-written?
I'll have to think about that.
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I would have to say that nerds never encounter evil overlords--only sauve and sophisticated spies, or grim-faced fantasy warriors ever run into those. Nerds tend to encounter other nerds, such as the comic book guy. I don't think we can count him as an evil overlord.
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unless you're trying to subscribe to a comic title he doesn't like.
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Fish, moving back to the previous topic, are there any romances that you've read that you DID like? I have the conundrum of liking a good romance novel but having very harsh judgement of what is good and what is not.
Octopus and Fish -- if you're looking for LDS stuff, try Kerry Blair, particularly This Just In. It's still not great literature, but it's fun, and a lot better than Anita Stansfield.
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This sucks... there are two conversations going on: one about evil overlords, and one about romance novels. And look which one I'm commenting on. What a nerd.
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I was gonna say "girly" but I guess "nerd" works.
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Well, what can you expect from a guy who writes LDS fiction. I hardly feel like I know you any more.
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I always liked Charly...
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Honestly, until my little trist with the Anita Stansfield novel I'd never read any LDS fiction other than Jennie Hansen, which I hope is not representative. I mean, they're engrossing, but not the best books in the world. I was going to say I wanted to try more, then I realized that you can't get those at libraries, and I can't afford to buy them all.
As for romance books I think are well-written, I've been thinking about it, and I couldn't really come up with any. I haven't read that many, I think because of that fact. I like alot of books that have romance in them--Mama Day and Paradise Park being two of my favorites, but neither of those are really in the romance genre.
Got any reccomendations, Fuzzy?
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Ummm.
:-[
None that I'd recommend in the company of other Mormons..... Though if you like Rent....
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I've probably got enough content issues just sticking with the ones I can't let go of, like Rent. I don't really need to add any more.
On the other hand, I started a novel today that's a romance, and I think it's very well written. It's called Scribbler of Dreams, and it's YA, and it's based on Romeo and Juliet, though my mom promised me that the characters don't die at the end. I don't know how I'll feel about it when I finish it, but for now I think it's great.
So yay, I came up with one.
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Paladin of Souls by Lois McMaster Bujold is a great romance. So is Shards of Honor by the same author. But they happen to be fantasy and science fiction novels, respectively, at the same time. (And Paladin is the 2nd in a series.)
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You know I ordered a copy from half.com and the stupid seller cancelled my order. I forgot to order another copy I was so grumpy about it.
Maybe I can even find a copy locally and save myself the anguish of shipping time.
Additionally, I just found out that I'll be getting the hardback since apparently the paperback version isn't being released until May. that seems like a long time.
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Got J. Strange and Mr. N for christmas. I've been reading that as much as I have time for. I'm onto chapter 3 or so.I've been finding it quite well.
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Because I have been borrowing it for FAR TO LONG
I am finaly reading "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien"
I have gotten half way through and to about 1956. At this point it is alot of letters in reply to reader questions and JRR's critique of various translations (He was VERRY upset with the Dutch Translation)
I guess I'll finaly return it soon
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One of many depressing books I'm reading right now is The Catcher in the Rye. I must say, it was ahead of its time. It reads as if it was published in at least the 60s, as frank as it is, and it was actually published in 1945.
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I'm reading Terry Pratchet's American Gods (finally) and Peter David's One Knight Only.
I must have David's Woad to Wuin and Tong Lashing. The first book int he series were brillaint. I need hard covers.
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Do you mean Neil Gaiman? Or did Pratchett do a parody of American Gods?
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Do you mean Neil Gaiman? Or did Pratchett do a parody of American Gods?
*chortles* Oh, i would pay good money for that one....
Unless he mean's Terry Tratchett's Small Gods.
I just blew all my birthday money on a half.com order. Found out about a series called 'The Weather Warden' series by Rachel Caine. Never heard of it. Good amazon reviews. We'll see if I can get through Paladin of Souls before they all show up.
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I meant Gaiman. I'm trying to get to prachett's Small Gods too, so maybe that's where I got confused.
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I just finished Dragons of Summer Flame by Weis and Hickman. I liked it better than any of the Dragonlances that I have read so far.
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One of many depressing books I'm reading right now is The Catcher in the Rye. I must say, it was ahead of its time. It reads as if it was published in at least the 60s, as frank as it is, and it was actually published in 1945.
I hated Catcher in the Rye when I read it in highschool. Like I loathed it with a passion. I've since been told that I should give it another try, because it's so wonderful. What do you think, Stacer? Is it worth it?
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I've only read 3 chapters so far, and so far I'd say no, not worth it. But at least it's not so graphic (so far) as Judy Blume's Forever. Ugh. That was far too graphic--I tried to skip, so I could have the general idea for class without reading it all, but there was a sex scene every other page, it seemed. I'm still trying to erase that from my mind. I don't think I'm going to have a very good time in this class. My teacher revels in the really edgy books. Pre-class reading list:
The Chocolate War, Robert Cormier
The Color Purple, Alice Walker
The Separate Peace, John Knowlton
The Catcher in the Rye, J. D. Salinger
Lord of the Flies, William Golding
Slake's Limbo, Felice Holman
Dinky Hocker Shoots Smack, M.E. Kerr
Hero Ain't Nothing but a Sandwich, Alice Childress
I'll Get there it Better be Worth the Trip, John Donovan
The Outsiders, S. E. Hinton
Jacob Have I Loved, Katherine Paterson
To Kill a Mockingbird, Harper Lee
The Bluest Eye, Toni Morrison
Language of Goldfish, Zibby Oneal
The Bell Jar, Sylvia Plath
The Pigman, Paul Zindel
The Friends, Rosa Guy
The Planet of Junior Brown, Virginia Hamilton
Forever, Judy Blume
Seventeenth Summer, Maureen Daly
Annie on my Mind, Nancy Garden
The Contender, Robert Lipsyte
Remembering the Good Times, Richard Peck
House on Mango Street, Sandra Cisneros
The Man without a Face, Isabelle Holland
I did like a couple on that list--To Kill a Mockingbird and Jacob Have I Loved--but those are so much cleaner than pretty much anything else on the list. It's really frustrating.
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...As a break from reading trashy books for class, I'm now going to go read a couple chapters of Hitchhiker's Guide, or maybe Sea of Trolls, the Nancy Farmer book that's up for the Newbery this year.
Speaking of which, I think I get to go to the press conference on Monday where they'll announce the winners.
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Well, at least there's no sex in Lord of the Flies. . . . Bummer of a reading list.
I just finished A Rage for Falcons, by Stephen Budico, a nonfiction about falconing. It was very interesting. If you want to put falconing in one of your books it's a quick, informative read.
I'm currently enjoying some of the Anne books by L. M. Montgomery. It's a definate girl thing.
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Those books are Edgy?
Ok, Never, I repeat, NEVER read any Cyberpunk book I recommend.
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A Separate Peace by John Knowles. I feel sorry for you, that book was completely devoid of a point, and, to my recollection, interest. I didn't really like To Kill A Mockingbird either, but that wasn't as bad. The Chocolate War is alright, and Outsiders is good, so at least there is an upside. Two actually, considering the fact that Pilgrim at Tinker Creek by Annie Dillard isn't on there. Still, I am sorry that someone else has to read those books.
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Those books are Edgy?
Ok, Never, I repeat, NEVER read any Cyberpunk book I recommend.
Well, some are. Some are just touchstones. But they were all considered a little avant gard for the times they came out. Seriously, Forever would still be considered edgy. I think Chocolate War would, too. I protested having to read it in high school because of the masturbation scene. Jacob Have I Loved and To Kill a Mockingbird aren't edgy, really, but both frankly discuss topics (religion for one and race/rape for the other) that have gotten them on banned book lists.
But if cyberpunk has graphic sex that makes you feel like you're reading Playboy, then yes, I don't really ever plan on reading what you recommend. I wanted to puke from reading Forever.
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How was the Toni Morrison book? I LOVE Jazz, but hated Song of Solomon. So Morrison can go either way.
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Haven't picked it up from the library yet. I ordered it, though, and I think it came in. I just need to go get it.
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Forever would still be considered edgy.
Edgy? Or just explicit? I read that one when I was in high school, and I remember it being exceedingly graphic, but not particularly ground breaking or thought provoking. Usually I think of edgy books as doing something new, and that one didn't seem that revolutionary. Then again, I guess maybe it was when it was written...
House on Mango Street is a great book, though. I love Cisneros. So is the Outsiders.
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In this teacher's mind, edgy=explicit. Which is why I think I'm going to have a rough semester.
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Jeffe and I read that Morrisson book for a "Families in Fiction" class in Greensboro. It was all right, I guess. the problem was that every family we read about in that class was dysfunctional and it was kind of hard to keep going with. I don't remember any graphic sex in it, but maybe I just blocked it. In the end, I wouldn't put it on my favorite reading list.
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a "Families in Fiction" class in Greensboro.
Ooh, I had one of those, once!
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I hated the Robert Cormier books. I never want my kids reading junk like that.
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I did too, Megan, at BYU. Wouldn't it be weird if we took it at the same time? I think it was the year before I joined TLE. But then, I think you were a freshman that year, huh. It was a joint MFHD-English class, so it counted for my major.
In fact--the day that we saw Lemony Snicket, a girl from that class, Liz, who I always randomly running into on campus the year after that class, was in line right next to me, and recognized me--three years later!
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no, mine was in high school. We spent an entire semester in my AP English class reading "literature" that all seemed to be about disfunctional families.
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In this teacher's mind, edgy=explicit. Which is why I think I'm going to have a rough semester.
Ah. That's lame. Sex scenes in young adult lit bug the heck out of me.
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Well, to be fair, it's not all about that for her, but that's one thing she seems to applaud, that kind of "daring."
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finished reading Marvel 1602. Yes it's a comic book, but it's written Neil Gaimam, one of the more accredited comic book writers. Anyways, I enjoyed it and I'm hoping to get a reveiw written about it sometime.
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Oooh, we'd been thinking about getting that one. Do post a review.
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Not long before I do 42! =P But nah, go ahead. I could possibly try and write one, just to get into the habit. But I probably won't submit.
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I read 1602 over the summer, and was kind of disappointed. I liked some of the ideas, but...in the end it just wasn't satisfying enough for me. Maybe he was trying to cram in too many characters, and wasn't able to do enough with any of them. Still a fun read, but nothing special.
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speaking of slightly disappointed, but not enough to make you hate it: One Knight Only has been hard to get into. I gave Knight Life (http://www.timewastersguide.com/view.php?id=544), the prequel, a decent review because while it didn't add anything particularly new to the genre it was still very funny and fairly fun to read. It was mostly fluff though. This one isn't nearly so funny. In fact, in the first 40 pages I think there was one joke. It skips over a lot of material -- a September 11 style attack, Arthur's run for president, his first term, and an Iraq-style war are all glossed over quickly in a flash back. The fun of the first one was his run for office and getting used to modern life. Now Merlin's not even a character (having died) and he's already in office. Maybe I'm not giving it enough chance, but it's a very different book in terms of who it encompasses and what's going on and the tone. *shrug* I'll finish it.
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I just finished A Rage for Falcons, by Stephen Budico, a nonfiction about falconing
/me clears throat
Sorry, that's Budio, just in case anyone was trying to find it.
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I'm currently reading Galileo's Daughter. It's not bad from a historical perspective. It only spent a minimum amount of time on his "throw things off the tower of Pisa and see what hits the ground first" experiment. Otherwise it does a very good job making him into a real person and not just a historical figure--especially through his daughter's letters about his laundry.
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Ok, anybody read the "Weather Warden" series, by Rachel Caine?
I got the first book in the mail yesterday.
I'm only 50 pages in and I already like it - I like the narrative style and the humor if nothing else.
What's buggin me to death is - how did I never hear of this series before?? It's, 2003, not that new. And the reviews I've read are all stellar.
Are there other great fantasy series just hiding out there without my knowing about them?
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I didn't find Death Dealer series until almost 15 years after it was published. So you're doing good in my book if it didn't even take 2 years.
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I just finished Howl's Moving Castle for the first time and I loved it. I basically devoured it in less than 24 hours (not hard, considering it is printed with double spacing).
Could someone post what the other books in that series are?
I'm in the middle of The Witch Must Die and I am enjoying it a lot.
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Hooray for The Witch Must Die! My favorite parts are in the first chapter when he explains his theory. Though, I like the last chapter alot too.
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I'm really enjoying the book. I think my favorite part is being introduced to fairy tales I didn't know about before like The Frog Princess, and The Adroit Princess.
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I still haven't read Howl's Moving Castle Yet, either. I checked it out from the library a while back, but never found the time. I don't know the rest of the series--perhaps fuzzy or Brenna do.
As I was telling MoD earlier today--I'm going to have to read The Uses of Enchantment for my folklore class this semester, so I'll have to do some follow-up summer reading in The Witch Must Die.
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As far as I know there's just one sequel to Howl's Moving Castle - "Castle in the Air" which you cannot read without having read Howl first, or the ending will make absolutely NO sense to you.
I finally got my copy of that book Stacer and her YA friends so generously tracked down for me - "Out of the Ordinary" by Annie Dalton. I was afraid it might not be as good as I remembered it from when I was 10, but no - it's still just as good a book. Excellent YA stuff, great fantasy, but not dumbed-down really.
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The Devil Wears Prada.
I've been wanting to read it since I saw it in an airport bookstore in August, and I finally got a Provo library card this week. (Happy day!)
And it's hilarious. It makes me so happy. I wish I had written this book.
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I've just begun reading Wizard of Earthsea again (Ursula Le Guin http://www.ursulakleguin.com/ , after I flicked through a few pages and found I'd almost completely forgotten it. It's nice to be able to read it again, almost as if for the first time.
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Maybe you should lose your memory. Then you could read everything again, as if for the first time.
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Maybe you should lose your memory. Then you could read everything again, as if for the first time.
I keep telling myself that if as I get elderly I lose my memory that this will be the greatest part of it.
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Of course, it would be smart to make a list of books you'd never want to read again before you lost your memory, otherwise you'd end up reading lousy books because you don't remember they suck.
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I just finished reading Battlefield Earth. I read it mostly due to wanting to read something long, coupled with Chris's high praise of it.
It's a very fun romp. I thought at the beginning I knew what was going to happen at the end, and a much grander scale of that happened about 1/4 of the way in. Everything after that was thus bonus! No huge mind-stretching going on; just good old-fashioned pulp.
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Mostly Harmless, Douglas Adams.
2nd time over.
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I just finished Call of the Icemark. Good fantasy novel, saxons fighting with werewolves against gunpowder using romans. Only just learned its a Young Adult one, heh. I just ignored the stated ages of the protagonist (14 and 15).
And before that was A shadow on the glass by Ian Irving. A rather dark high fantasy novel, with non-standard races, a detailed and interesting backstory and protagonists who are not ungodly powerful. I've got the rest of the series coming via amazon. I keep thinking I could convert it into an RPG easily enough, which is always a good sign.
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Mostly Harmless, Douglas Adams.
2nd time over.
I didn't like Mostly Harmless the first time I read it. The second time I loved it though. Good thing I'm a rabid fan.
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I'm trying to read Amber and Ashes by Margaret Weis, because WotC sent it, but it's just...I can't. And if I can't handle the big cool hardback by a bestselling author, what are my chances with the no-name paperbacks?
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Margaret Weis long ago fell prey to the Heinlein disease.
Upon being confronted by one of his fans about the falling quality of his work Heinlein replied:
"Hey, when they'll pay me as much as they pay me for literally anything I write, where's the incentive?"
I haven't been able to stomach anything Weis had anything to do with for years. Dragonlance is a golden memory I refuse to soil by close examination in these my later years.
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hmmm right now I am reading ABARAT A new york times best seller, by Clive Barker
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I didn't like Mostly Harmless the first time I read it. The second time I loved it though. Good thing I'm a rabid fan.
- The first time I read it, I didn't dislike it, I just found it quite different from thed previous four. It's also a lot more bleak than the others (DNA was going through a bad patch in his life at the time.) The humour is still there, but it's got a slightly different tone. Second time around, I'm really enjoying it because I'm not having any pre-emptive judgements spoilt.
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I just finished reading the Dalemark Quartet by Dianne Wynne Jones. I think I liked the third book, Spellcoats best, but I was really annoyed with how she jumped around with the characters. It's almost like she wrote the last book first and then the other books were just prequels.
Her prose was like that too. At the end of the book she starts talking about how the protagonist has realized that the major bad guy is about to appear, and then she runs off and takes a shower.
I have a feeling I enjoy the books better the second time through, when I'm not constantly being offput by the strange way she approached the story.
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Yeah, I felt the same way. Remember me complaining about how she introduced guns in the middle of a scene? Rather off-putting. I agree on Spellcoats--most internally consistent book, best story of the four.
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Ah yes, I remember that now. The guns never bothered me, but it was that sort of thing that keep making me mad. I'd be reading a long and suddenly have to back up a few paragraphs to find out where this other character had come from. Sometimes I wanted to give up, but I have a hard time putting down a book unless I'm really disgusted, like with Arslan, though that was content related rather than poor writing.
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I don't usually throw books, but this one was across the room, spine-side-up on crumpled pages before I realized what I was doing.
I read Terry Goodkind's new book, Chainfire, yesterday, and the reason it ended up on the floor was because just as the book ramps up to the climax, it ends.
This has to be one of the best books Goodkind has written. with parts that are truly terrifying and others that are really touching. Richard is injured by an arrow and while he's injured he realizes that Kahlan is gone. The problem is that no one else even remembers her existence and insist she was only a dream. All the evidence Richard can find of her existence is circumstantial at best and both Cara and Nicci become more and more convinced he's delusional. By the middle of the book, Goodkind does such a good job that I wasn't sure Richard didn't just dream her up. His quest for her leads him to give up his most prized possession: Richard gives Shota back the Sword of Truth, just when he needs it the most.
Of course, it wouldn't be nearly as fun without the usual deadly peril to the hero. While he is hunting for someone that exists only in his memory, Richard is being hunted by a creature that cannot be killed and is particularly deadly, created by the Sisters of the Dark and attuned to Richard's magic. He can't even read a book of prophecy without calling the beast, and those around him die horrible deaths when it appears.
This book is overly descriptive in some places, often redundantly so, slowing the pacing down to nearly a halt and , but that's normal for Goodkind. However, with the book-thrwoing ending, it looks like Goodkind is finally going to bring this series to its climax and conclusion.
It's good stuff, Maynard.
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Wait, if it ended before the climax... You mean the next book in the series will be the last? Or did he just quit?
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It looks like the next book will be the last one.
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I'm such a bad, bad person. Yeah, that's it. More. ....
So, I went to Record Theatre and bought some, no not CDs, but books. Hardcovers were on sale for $5 and softcover $2.50. What was I suppose to do? I got the "Legends II" anthology collection and Philip Pulman's "The Golden Compass." I also got my friend Donaldson's "The Mirror of Her Dreams: Book I of Mordant's Need" book. Just that title for a series of books makes me cringe. Oy how I wish to not read this man's work. But alas, I will grave the sod!
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Just finished On Second Thought, and enjoyed it immensely. Other than that, I'm mainly reading texts and articles for school; nothing to write home about. Though I do enjoy poring over Wired magazine every month I get that...
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I'm reading Net+ and A+ study guides for school and software manuals for work. I have a lot to do here at work.
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Just started The Prisoner's Dilemma by Poundstone, as well as The Survival Game by Barash. Both Game theory books.
I'm also reading A Series of Unfortunate Events to my kids.
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My kids are too young to really follow a novel from day to day, so I just read them storybooks. I taught my daughter Uno yesterday, though, so that was cool. She's pretty good.
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My daughter's pretty all right at Uno. I plan on reading Harry Potter to her as soon as she stops being distressed by chase scenes in Disney movies.
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A bookstore in our town just shut down, a tragedy of terrible proportions. But some good came out of it, as they had a going out of business sale, and I got a bunch of books for not a lot of money. Out of those books, I am currently starting Beowulf and Paladin of Souls by Lois McMaster Bujold (I never read one book at a time).
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My brothers and I came up with a variation on Uno that we dubbed, "contact uno" and is very fun to play. I'll have to dig up the rules...
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Looks like the rules are too long. :)
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Submit them as an article. If we like them enough, we'll run them.
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I'm probably going to finish reading Prisoner of Azkaban to my 6-year-old son tonight. I'm still debating on starting to read Goblet of Fire to him because of the ending. But then again, he may be okay with it.
::)
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I just finished The Devil Wears Prada. Broke down and bought a copy on my layover in LA, because my copy had been due back at the library and I wanted to finish it. I may get stoned for bringing this up here, because it's a very trendy book--but I LOVED it. It makes fun of just about everything about graduating college and trying to figure out what you're doing with your life and magazines and the fashion industry and psycho bosses. It's the kind of book that makes me VERY happy.
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I am currently re-reading my childhood favorite, the Trixie Belden series. They've republished them again, this time with very nice covers. Always amuses me that they always update the covers to contemporary-looking characters, but the text and the inner illustrations are still just the same as when the books were originally published in the 1960s. It always confused me as a kid, because I couldn't dream, as a 13-year-old, to have to go to the restroom with my best friend to "powder my nose" and "apply fresh lipstick," and I certainly never used the word "jeepers."
But I loved this series so much, when I was in the 4th grade I decided to form my very own Bobwhites club, even though I had no one but my sister to be in my club. (Didn't have many friends that year. Even if I did, they would have thought I was a dork.)
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Trixie Belden books are great. Which ones did they republish? Just the Carolyn ones? or the Kathleen ones too?
[EDIT: Sorry. I have the names all mixed up...]
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All of them up to #14, which is both authors. I think Carolyn only did the first 3 or so. Kathryn Kenny is listed as the author in #8, the Mystery of the Black Jacket. I got 7, 8, and 9 for free from the Horn Book last semester, and they're all by Kathryn, actually, and 1, 2, and 3 are written by Julie Campbell. Carolyn Keene is Nancy Drew, I think.
(This actually counts as homework, as I'm reviewing them for class for tomorrow, as a MG/YA series.)
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Oh, and something interesting about the new edition: the authors' names are NOT printed on the covers. Weird, huh? The ugly paperbacks I had as a kid at least had the authors' names given proper credit on the cover, not just the title page. I know my old paperbacks are in a box somewhere, and it saddens me that I don't know where they are so I can compare. I had a horrible beaten up copy of #14, the one where they find the emerald necklace somewhere in a southern mansion. It was beaten up and used when I got it, and I reread it so many times. I think it must be in my sister's basement or something. There is a box of books *somewhere* that I've been missing for years, and it bugs me to try to remember whose house in Illinois it's been stored at all these years.
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Are you sure they are actually written by them anyway? It was me and my sister's suspicion that the first 3 were written by one person but that the rest were written by committee (which we called the KKK, for Kathryn Kenny Klub). One notable continuity error was that in one book Regan has an apartment above the garage, and in another he has a suite above the stables... (Now really, who would live directly above stables?)
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Currently working through the Wheel of Time. I'm on book 3 now.
I'm currently in the mindset of "will it ever end?"
I dunno. Anyone else have problems with world that seem made just for the novels? It's like, I can't imagine a [WoT world] outside of the Wheel of Time series, prophecies and "historical" references aside.
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yea! More pointless Robert Jordan discussions! It's not like the last three were all that intresting.
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No.. no it doesn't. I got up to book 11.
And the world seemed pretty ok to me. The few times that earlier ages were mentioned sounded cool.
If your really looking for worldbuilding, I strongly recommend 'The view from the mirror' quartet by Ian Irvine. Some problems with pacing and plot, but good characterisation, and some genuine new and original races. The world itself is a bit underexplained - I never felt like I knew the details of some of the backstory well enough - but the races he made work well. If a little too similar in their mentality to elves and dwarves.
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Down sprig. be nice to the newbies. It's not like he's said anything really stupid.
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If sponsorship is needed to avoid hazing, I can vouch for this one. I met him freshman year and spent quite a lot of time talking with him.
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Hmm. I know you, Fuzzy? What's your name?
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http://www.timewastersguide.com/boards/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1051196804;start=15
She introduced herself here.
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Ah, Megan! I remember you. It's been a while.
(Thanks Archon)
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Sprig wasn't newbie-bashing, he was Jordan-bashing-bashing. Honestly, haven't we pretty much said all that can be said about how much we hate Robert Jordan? I've only read one of his books and I still hate him (not personally, of course, I'm sure he's a fine man and good to his mother).
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well, no, he was newbie bashing. There were three threads in a row where he was unfriendly. This was only one of them. But I agree. We don't like him (except for those of us who do) so let's drop it.
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I assume that by "him" you're refering to Jordan, not JadeKnight. Or Spriggan. That was kind of funny.
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heh, I'll use unclear pronouns all I want!
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I started off with Lincoln by Stephen Donaldson, followed that up with Wierd of the White Wolf by Moorcock (the only Elric book that I own,) and then just finished Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep by Philip K. Dick. That covers the last two months for me.
That Androids... gets better every time I read it.
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After a few months of catching up on the Star Wars EU (I can't recommend enough reading Labyrinth of Evil if you're seeing Ep3), I finally managed to get to my "other" pile of books.
Just finished Dan Brown's Angels and Demons, which was good. I enjoy his blending of mythology, fiction and mystery.
Just starting The Supernaturalist. Didn't realize when I ordered it that it's written by Eoin Colfer, who did the Artemis Fowl books. So I'm sure this will be fun.
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I've been reading short stories published on-line by Sci Fiction. I like the stories, but I'm frustrated that half of the stories are considered to be science fiction/speculative fiction when they just aren't. I'm also frustrated with the stories that have great language, but beyond that are just stupid.
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Currently reading Elantris, like a good little fangirl. ;D
Just before that, I read Starship Troopers. Now I understand why Heinlein fans were so disgusted by the movie.
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I'm reading a Heinlein book at the moment, Time Enough For Love.
I'm a Heinlein fan, and I loved the movie - I just think it should have been titled differently because it was irrelevent to the book.
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I hate to bring Jordan up again, but I'm giving Eye of the World another try. It's going much better than last time. I'm still not impressed for a number of reasons, but I don't hate it nearly so much.
Course, I'm only 150 pages in, but that's better than my last try.
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I'm reading a Heinlein book at the moment, Time Enough For Love.
I like that book. I was bummed because the Provo city library doesn't have a copy. Should have had J.T. look for a copy while hewas at half price books yesterday. Darn!
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Eric, I read the eye of the world years ago and decided it was enough, and stopped. Then I got bored while in Japan and listened to book 2 in audiobook format while doing graphics stuff on my computer. It made it much easier to get through and after a few books of this I was actually interested enough to want to read physical copies of the last few books.
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So doing the library thing I finally decided to give Peter David's original fiction a try. I picked up Knight Life, and it sat at the bottom of my stack of books. Because, unfortunately, I can only read so many Arthur-story books before I go insane. (Sorry SE.) Much like the story of Romeo and Juliet, I think the story is fine, but I don't LIKE it.
So I finally gave Knight Life a try, 'cause well, Peter David - you know?
It's not bad. He seems to dislike Lancelot almost as much as I do, which is no mean feat. And because it's Peter David, the book is of course, very funny and clever.
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if you liked knight life, try Sir Apropos of Nothing. It may have subject matter that's a touch darker than you like, if I remember your tastes, but it's got David's humor and it doesn't END badly, just unconventionally.
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I tried it. It was actually too dark for me to really enjoy. It gets returned to the library now.
What I have been enjoying is a series of books I actually picked up at DI last week (I just bought them because they WERE a series, all together at DI). The Singers of Nevya trilogy by Louise Marley. The books are "Sing the Light," "Sing the Warmth," and "Receive the Gift."
They're science fantasy, which in this case means that there's implying that the people on the planet were once colonists from somewhere else, but past that it's all fantasy. I think they're probably actually YA books, but they're excellent and I've very much enjoyed reading them. I'll start on the third one tomorrow. I think I need to find more series I've never heard of before that are already finished!
Anyone else read these? Stacer? Kristy? Izzy?
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It feels like it ought to be familiar, but it's not. Once I get caught up with my background reading, perhaps I'll add it to my list (which is already extensive--I doubt I'll ever catch up, even with the books on my own (figurative, at this point) bookshelf).
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I haven't, but after devouring Elantris I've been feeling a little lonely for good fantasy books to read. I'll try and find it at my library.
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My reading time has been taken up recently by cheese-fiction...Warhammer and Eberron novels.
I'll be picking up Elantris soon though. I can't wait to dig in.
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I'm dividing my time between Elantris, Wake Me When It's Over, and Donaldson's "Gap" series; that's his sci-fi series. It's not all that bad. Aside from there being veritibly little dialogue, horrible scenes involving rape, and a completely unlikable character as the main character. Oh Donaldson how your writing makes me loathe you.
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I read a lot so I may end up posting here often (especially late at night when I can't sleep because there's a loud dance party right outside my window and I'm stressed because I'm supposed to be studying for Spanish or sleeping but am unable to convince myself to do either at this late hour when my brain has become goofy).
I just finished a YA by Michael O. Tunnell, a professor of children's lit at BYU (in the education department). It is called Wishing Moon and is a continuation of the 'Aladdin and the Lamp' tale. I am really fascinated by Arabian folktales, and it was a hardback on sale for $6.99, so I bought it with my dwindling amount of money (dwindling because I am between jobs.) Hey, I can go without one meal, right?
I would say it was worth a sandwich. I enjoyed it--the culture was interesting and seemed accurate, the characters were round and engaging, and the romance was less predictable than most--but the climax felt a little 'deus ex machina' to me. The resolution of the climax was foreshadowed, but it still seemed too magical and easy. (This thought, however, made me want to examine other books where magic figures into the resolution of the problem but doesn't come across as 'deus ex machina.' Research project!) And the ending--the little 'surprise' on the last page--was just a little bit cheesy for me. And I like cheese.
However, if you are interested in retellings of Arabian Nights stories or enjoy Arabian folklore, I would recommend it, along with Shadow Spinners by Susan Fletcher and Seven Daughters and Seven Sons by Barbara Cohen, two of my favorite YA 'Arabian' books. Shadow Spinners is a different take on the Scherazade tale, and Seven Daughters is a lesser known folktale where a girl disguises herself as a boy to save her family (common enough worldwide--look at Mulan in China and Shakespeare's heroines in England). I would probably pick up these before Wishing Moon, but I recommend all three.
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I second Shadow Spinners. There's The Storyteller's Daughter by Cameron Dokey, as well.
I've been reading the Dragonlance: The New Adventures, books 1-8. I'm going to be editing the new ones, so I need to be familiar with the old ones. I'm happily surprised--they're really good. Fun adventure/fantasy reads.
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I would say it was worth a sandwich.
This amused me greatly. I think from now on every time I agonize over whether to buy another book I will measure it in sandwiches.
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I just finished Elantris myself. (Which is how I found Brandon Sanderson's site, which is how I found this site, which is why you are all stuck with me when I can't get writing done.)
Now, I'm flying out for this CONduit and I'm looking for a book to read on the plane. I'm coming from PA, so there's a puddle jumper and a layover and then another flight....so I need something preferably light in tone, but long. Maybe a Terry Pratchett? I don't know. Any suggestions?
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chasingisis,
I don't know what your opinion of YA is, but the first thing that popped into my mind was Crown Duel/Court Duel by Sherwood Smith. It it light and entertaining, and has a fun romance. It was originally published as two books, but you can get it as one book in paperback from Firebird. Even though it is "packaged" as YA, it reads like mainstream fantasy. At least, according to EUOL--I lent it to him to read since Sherwoood Smith had written a review of his book on her blog.
My friend Holly--another fantasy and YA writer/reader--highly recommends it as well. She is not on TWG, so you will have to take my word on her behalf. :)
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This amused me greatly. I think from now on every time I agonize over whether to buy another book I will measure it in sandwiches.
Yes, fuzzyoctopus, this is the state I have been reduced to lately. Do I eat or do I read? I am trying to avoid starvation by ravaging the library, but sometimes I can't resist. I mean, $6.99 for a hardback book (normally $14.99). That's a steal! Definitely worth a sandwich. ;D
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Chimera,
Thanks. I looked at the book, and it should fit the bill. Actually, I will have to recommend it to my best friend, who is really into YA fantasy and would enjoy it too.
;D
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So I'm on a Neil Gaiman kick right now. The first Gaiman work I came in contact with was the picture book There Are Wolves in the Walls which was illustrated by the same artist who did Sandman with him. Wolves is a very interesting post-modern picture book, kind of dark and creepy.
Next I read Stardust, which is a Victorian-style fairytale adventure. I found it in the YA section of the library, but it read like mainstream. For the most part I liked it--it felt reminiscient of the Andrew Lang fairytales, but influenced by modern writing style. Caution: there are a couple of short sex scenes.
I just finished Neverwhere, mainstream fantasy that takes place in an alternate world in the London underground. I enjoyed this more than Stardust, but that could partly be because it took place in London, and since I did study abroad there I am desperately in love with London. Reading about all the familiar London sites made my heart ache for this favorite city of mine. But it also made the book more enjoyable--I knew just what Gaiman was talking about when he would mention Leicester Square, the National Gallery, the walkway along the Thames, etc. I definitely recommend it, just for its imaginative prowess. Gaiman has such an interesting, darkly fantastic world here. Caution: not for the faint of heart, plenty of violence and blood.
My next read is Good Omens which he wrote with Terry Pratchett. EUOL highly recommended it, so I think it will be good. Gaiman seems to have a flair for darker fantasy, twisted slightly, but with positive themes; I'll be interested in what else he writes.
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If you like Victorian fairy tales, Gaiman has a collection of dark fairy tales done in that vein. I forget the name of the collection, but a classmate of mine used it as her collection for our folklore class. One of the tales (don't ask me which one) was related to the story in Coraline.
I haven't read any Gaiman except Coraline, myself. Mainly for lack of time, I suppose. Too many other things to do. When I finally find the spare time to read for fun again, first on the list is Gregory Frost's new book, the name of which escapes me at the moment--the retelling of Bluebeard that's in the Terri Windling series. I got it back in March at ICFA but haven't had the time to read it yet.
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Did you like Coraline? When I looked at all his books, that was my last choice, and I already had a bunch of books to check out so I decided to wait on it. What did you think of it?
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I'm actually not the best person to ask on that. I thought it was okay, but not outstanding. It's supposed to be scary--lots of my friends say it scared them--but I read it at 2 in the morning and never felt freaked out at all. Perhaps I was just in a strange mood when I read it.
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No, your opinion is very valuable. That was kind of the feeling I was getting from reading the summaries and reviews of it. Like it was kind of creepy, but not all that original.
I don't know, I just wasn't feeling the vibe, so I put off reading it. I did really like Neverwhere, I'm glad I read that.
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Now, see, I loved CORALINE. It was creepy: like an edgy ALICE IN WONDERLAND. It didn't so much scare me as give me the shivers. It was the kind of book I wish I could have read when I was a kid.
My friend and I are Neil Gaiman fanatics. NEVERWHERE is excellent, but I'm more fond of AMERICAN GODS. That's a much darker (again edgier) book, (definitely with sex scenes), but I also thought it rose above some of what he'd already done. He has another one coming out, I don't know what it's about or where it falls (YA, Adult, what) called the ANANSI BOYS. Also, there's supposed to be a movie later this summer, called MIRRORMASK.
If you're into graphic novels, Gaiman did the excellent SANDMAN series.
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Also, there's supposed to be a movie later this summer, called MIRRORMASK.
A movie adapted from one of his books? Or a new screenplay that he wrote?
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Mirrormask is a movie Gaiman made with his buddy Dave McKean. Guy who did the chapter covers and new Sandman covers. It looks to be very cool. It got rave reviews at Sundance last year, or whenever the last one was.
Ok, here's what you do Chimera. Go and "borrow" Tage's first five volumes of Sandman. I believe he has 1-5. I'm fairly certain I touched them when I visited. Also, do check out American Gods, very good.
As well, in Legends II, which is a collection of authors short stories that may or may not be an addition to one of their works, has a Gaiman story in it. I believe it ties American Gods and his latest, Anansi Boys, together.
Other than that I suggest you check out his website with his journal on it: http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/journal.asp Enjoy!
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Thanks Gemm. I shall soon be a Neil Gaiman devotee.
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I've just been looking at some Sandman covers. They're beautiful. I think I need to get hold of some of these.
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I've been reading a lot of old classics that I'd never gotten around to reading before. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, War of the Words, The Island of Dr. Moreau. It's been very interesting. Especially seeing the differences between what was perceived as being a strong protagonist now, compared to what a strong protagonist seems to be in more modern books. (More later about this, maybe, but I've got to ride my bike to the bus station now so I can get to work!)
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I haven't read Jekyll and Hyde, but the other two are very interesting books. I got free ice cream at age 7 for having read War of the Worlds. My teacher was impressed. I should have shown her the Hobbit, since I'd already read that.
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There are a number of the classics that I have copies of but haven't gotten back to reading. But I had to read Treasure Island and Kidnapped by Robert Louis Stevenson last year. I really liked those--Kidnapped more than Treasure Island. Probably because it was set in Scotland in places I'd been. ;)
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Stacer,
Since you just finished your MA in children's lit, what are some recommendations? Especially anything that came out within the last few years.
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I'm afraid, off the top of my head, I won't be able to come up with too much. All my books are still being moved here and won't be here till next year. I can look up my booklists when I get home this weekend (I'm going straight to Oceanside tonight).
Off the top of my head:
Water Babies is a necessary evil. It's annoying, yet a good example of early Victorian fantasy.
Anything by George MacDonald. Most recommended are the books I did that paper on in March, the princess books (The Princess and the Goblin, The Princess and Curdie, The Light Princess--that last one is HILARIOUS, especially if you get the one illustrated by Maurice Sendak).
Let's see... I read a lot of YA this semester, most of which was too edgy to really make me recommend them wholeheartedly. Of course I'd recommend Katherine Paterson's Jacob Have I Loved.
Sorry, Dragonlance: The New Adventures really has overtaken my brain today. I'll try to come back with better recommendations. But if you've never read George MacDonald, you really need to. He's one of the earliest true fantasists (as long as you don't think EUOL's right about fantasy starting in 1978, which is absolutely not true), and had quite a bit of influence on Tolkien and C.S. Lewis.
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I am familiar with George MacDonald. I read the thread that you guys had going about it...somewhere...but it had died awhile ago and I didn't want to unnecessarily revive it. I read the Princess and the Goblin when I was little, but I can't remember much--except that I liked it. I should pick it up again, and read the sequel (I didn't know there was one when I was a kid). I have read The Light Princess--very funny. I haven't seen the one illustrated by Maurice Sendak, though.
Never read Water Babies. If it is a necessary evil, than I suppose I should read it. Another old classic I should read is Through the Looking Glass and Alice in Wonderland. I did read Peter Pan a couple of months ago for my film/lit class, to compare the text with the Disney cartoon and the recent live-action film (which was totally awesome, by the way--everyone MUST see it!). J. M. Barrie is a funny narrator when he intrudes upon the story. I was glad to learn a little more about him and read Peter Pan before Findind Neverland came out.
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Oh, goodness, if you haven't read Alice, then start there. It's considered by most of my profs as *the* touchstone fantasy (of early fantasy). Besides, then you'll know the Jabberwocky... (http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/jabber/jabberwocky.html)
`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
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Oh, and Victorians are notorious for narrator/author intrusion. I enjoy it when it's not too preachy.
Speaking of which, that reminds me of what you were saying somewhere about being didactic. "Didactic" actually means "to teach" and a lot of children's books teach something. I don't have a problem with that; what I have a problem with is when it's preachy and has nothing to do with the story. If it's not a story for the story's sake, then it's propaganda or a tract. Read Victorian lit for that, too, especially things like Jessica's Prayer and Jessica's Mother (both of which are available online, I think, but I don't have immediate access to the URLs).
EDIT: Sorry about the multiple posts. I think I'll go resurrect the recommend me a book thread.
We read Francesca Lia Block, Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye), hmm... just found my YA syllabus online. Here's the list of touchstones:
Seventeenth Summer, Maureen Daly (Dodd, Mead, 1942)
Catcher in the Rye, J. D. Salinger (Little, 1945)
Lord of the Flies, William Golding (Putnam, 1954)
Brown Girl Brownstones, Paule Marshall (Harcourt, 1959)
A Separate Peace, John Knowles (Macmillan, 1960)
To Kill a Mockingbird, Harper Lee (Harper, 1961)
The Contender, Robert Lipsyte (Harper, 1967)
The Outsiders, S. E. Hinton (Viking, 1967)
The Pigman, Paul Zindel (Harper, 1968)
I'll Get There, It Better be Worth the Trip, John Donovan (Harper, 1969)
The Bluest Eye, Toni Morrison (Holt, 1970)
The Planet of Junior Brown, Virginia Hamilton (Dell, 1971)
The Friends, Rosa Guy (Bantam, 1973)
Slake’s Limbo, Felice Holman.(Scribner, 1974)
Forever, Judy Blume (Bradbury, 1975)
The Language of Goldfish, Zibby Oneal (Viking, 1980)
Jacob Have I Loved, Katherine Paterson (Crowell, 1980)
Annie on My Mind, Nancy Garden (Farrar, 1982)
Remembering the Good Times, Richard Peck (Delacorte, 1985)
The Chocolate War, Robert Cormier (Delacorte, 1974)
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Also, there's a thread somewhere in this forum (books) that has a subject that's something like, "Stacer, recommend me a book" in which I posted about 10 posts' worth of fantasy/SF recommendations.
Here's the regular class reading list (we read the touchstones in preparation for class before the first day, and the following list is the regular coursework). Sorry about lack of italics/formatting--I just copied/pasted, then deleted dates. If you want it in a word attachment, I can email it to you.
Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, James Joyce
(any edition, 1916), chapters 1 and 2
"All of a Tremble to See His Danger," Aidan Chambers in
The Arbuthnot Lectures 1980-1989 (ALA, 1990)
Reviews of Cool: The Signs and Meanings of Adolescence and Teenagers: An American History. Reviews by Marcel Danesi and Grace Palladino in The Lion and the Unicorn 22:2 (1998) 250-254.
Twentieth-Century Teen Culture by the Decades, Lucy Rollin (Greenwood, 1999)
Terms of the Michael Printz Award, www.ala.org/yalsa
Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time, Mark Haddon (Doubleday, 2003)
Hush, Jacqueline Woodson ((Putnam, 2002)
Weetzie Bat, Francesca Lia Block (Harper, 1989)
“Imprints of the Mind: The Depiction of Consciousness in Children’s Fiction," Maria Nikolajeva. Children’s Literature Association Quarterly, 26.4 (2002), 173-87.
The Chocolate War, Robert Cormier (Pantheon, 1974)
"The Absence of Moral Agency in Robert Cormier's The Chocolate War," Anita Tarr. Children's Literature. 30 (2002) 99-124.
"No Safe Place to Run to: An Interview with Robert Cormier," Mitzi Myers. Lion and Unicorn, 24.3 (September 2000), 445-464.
The Breadwinner, Deborah Ellis (Groundwood, 2001)
Butler, Judith. "Subversive Bodily Acts," in Gender Trouble, 128-141.
In class: excerpt from Osama (Afghan film)
The Earth, My Butt, and Other Big Round Things, Carolyn Mackler (Candlewick, 2003)
The First Part Last, Angela Johnson (Simon & Schuster, 2003)
Parrot in the Oven: Mi Vida, Victor Martinez (Harper, 1996)
American Eyes: New Asian American Short Stories for Young Adults, Lori M. Carlson, ed. (Fawcett, 1995)
A Sudden Silence, Eve Bunting (Harcourt, 1988) I do NOT recommend this book. This was a prof. candidate who chose this. It is NOT a good example of what's typical of good YA. I leave it on the list as a contrast.
Staying Fat for Sarah Byrnes, Chris Crutcher (Greenwillow, 1993)
Brown, Joanne. "Interrogating the 'Real' in Young Adult Realism," The New Advocate 12.3 (fall 1999), 345-57.
David, Terri. "A Healing Vision," English Journal. 85.3 (March 1996), 36-42.
The Center of Everything, Laura Moriarty (Hyperion, 2003)
Seek, Paul Fleischman (Marcato/Cricket, 2001)
A Step from Heaven, An Na (Front Street, 2001)
"Housekeeping" film
The Kite Runner, Khaled Hosseini (Riverhead, 2003)
Tangerine, Edward Bloor (Harcourt, 1997)
Any essay from Aronson's Exploding the Myths and/or Beyond the Pale
Rats Saw God, Rob Thomas (Simon and Schuster, 1996) This is the same guy who writes/developed Veronica Mars
Speak, Laurie Halse Anderson (Farrar, 1999)
Spinning through the Universe, Helen Frost (Farrar, 2004)
Episode of Veronica Mars
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"The Irony of Narration in the Young Adult Novel," Michael Cadden. Children's Literature Association Quarterly 25 (2000). 146-54.
"The Value of Singularity in First- and Restricted Third-Person Engaging Narration," Andrea Schwenke Wyile. Children's Literature 31 (2003), 116-141
Chanda's Secrets, Allan Stratton (Annick Press, 2004)
Cuba 15, Nancy Osa (Random, 2003)
Drinking Coffee Elsewhere, Z. Z. Packer (Riverhead, 2003)
True Confessions of a Heartless Girl, Martha Brooks (Kroupa/Farrar, 2003)
Touchstone Panel #1 We discussed the touchstones on the other list in light of the contemporary reading we'd been doing
America. E. R. Frank (Atheneum, 2002)
Fat Kid Rules the World, K. L. Going (Putnam, 2003)
Wonder When You'll Miss Me, Amanda Davis (Morrow/Harper, 2003)
Touchstone Panel #2
Every Time a Rainbow Dies, Rita Williams-Garcia (Harper, 2002)
Silent to the Bone, E. L.Konigsburg (Atheneum, 2000)
True Believer, Virginia Euwer Wolff (Holt, 2000)
Touchstone Panel #3
Hard Love, Ellen Wittlinger (Simon, 1999)
Heart’s Delight, Per Nilsson, translated by Tara Chace (Front Street, 2003)
My Heartbeat, Garret Freymann-Weyr, (Houghton, 2002)
Touchstone Panel #4
The Gospel According to Larry, Janet Tashjian (Holt, 2001)
Shooter, Walter Dean Myers (Harper, 2004)
Vernon God Little, D. B. Pierre (Canongate, 2002)
Touchstone Panel #5
The Facts Speak for Themselves, Brock Cole (Front Street, 1997)
Sleeping Dogs, Sonya Harnett (Viking, 1995)
Smack, Melvin Burgess (Holt, 1998)
"Sympathy with the Devil," Melvin Burgess. Children's Literature in Education 35.4 (December 2004), 289-301.
"The Real Adolescent: Performance and Negativity in Melvin Burgess's Junk" Steven Thomson, Lion and the Unicorn 23.1 (1999), 22-29.
Fallen Angels, Walter Dean Myers (Scholastic, 1987)
Postcards from No Man’s Land, Aidan Chambers (Dutton, 2002)
"Losses and Gains in Translation: Some Remarks on the Translation of Humor in the Books of Aidan Chambers," Emer O'Sullivan. Children's Literature 26 (1998), 185-205.
Kindergarten, Peter Rushforth (Knopf, 1980) Which I couldn't find, but it was so well-liked by my classmates that I have to go on a search for it
Persepolis 2: Story of a Return, Marjane Satrapi (Knopf, 2004)
"Honesty and Hope: Presenting Human Rights to Teenagers through Fiction," Children's Literature in Education 25.1 (March 1994), 41-54.
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Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time, Mark Haddon (Doubleday, 2003)
<butts in randomly>
I loved that book, more than anything else I'd read all that year, I think.
Except perhaps some old favourites..
Robert Cormier - I can take a little, bu the can become... just a bit too much.
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Cormier's books are evil.
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Cormier's books are evil.
I completely agree. He creates worlds in which there is no redemption and no agency. There are only varying shades of evil. He says that he's trying to point out that you have to work together to overcome evil in the world, but all his so-called "heroes" always lose because they're also inherently part of the evil, the system, the problem, whatever you want to call it. I can't remember exactly what I want to say about them besides that--there was more--except they're always creepy.
The problem is, he also revolutionized the idea of YA fiction, and there are many who revere him, so he can't be dismissed out of hand. One of the articles in that list does a really good job of analyzing Cormier in that light, rather than using straight simpering adoration the way so many scholars do.
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Cormier's books are awesome.
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I'm currently reading P. G. Wodehouse; My Man Jeeves.
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The Cormier book that I really wish I hadn't read is Fade.
I recently finished Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. It took me about three months to get through it, what with the baby and all. I did enjoy it. I had no clue where it was going.
Right now I'm reading Real World Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS, but I can only get through a couple of pages before it puts me to sleep. Zzzzzzz.
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I recently read Fade. It instantly went on my list of favourite books. It's probably in my top ten, I'd say. I appreciate books that challange the status quo, especially ones aimed at young people - since the only way things are ever going to get better is by people challanging that which is.
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I have mixed feelings about Cormier. The one I read is The Chocolate War, for my YA lit class. I didn't like it because it was vile in parts, particularly anytime one of the teenage boys thought about females. It made me want to shut myself in a room and never go outside where a man would even look at me, I felt so gross and violated.
But the theme of the book--this boy who is determined to "Go against the universe," specifically the 'universe' that is his corrupt school, and pretty much fails--stuck in my head for weeks. Nobody helped the boy in his moment of need. He was abandoned, completely alone. It made me ask what I would do in a crisis moment. Would I stand up, or would I rationalize it away? There were so many degrees of gray in the book. Usually, someone is always noble and comes to the rescue. Nobody did in this book. So, what's more true to life?
It was a sobering concept to ponder.
I don't think that humanity is inherently bad. Or that you have to only explore "the dark side" of humanity in fiction. But I'm not quite ready to write off Cormier's books yet. Anything that has me thinking for weeks has some merit in my eyes.
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I have mixed feelings about Cormier. The one I read is The Chocolate War, for my YA lit class. I didn't like it because it was vile in parts, particularly anytime one of the teenage boys thought about females. It made me want to shut myself in a room and never go outside where a man would even look at me, I felt so gross and violated.
That's exactly how I felt when reading Chocolate War, both times--first time, age 14, freshman year of high school; second time I couldn't even finish it.
I do agree that Cormier does things in his narration that nobody else at the time did--he takes risks, breaks boundaries. But, but... I can't stand the way he does it. His view of reality is extremely dim.
Chimera, you really should read that article on Cormier I mentioned in that list. She does a good job of looking at his work from a different perspective. Kind of helped me articulate why I personally don't like his work--though I can't say that it is worthless. It's certainly a touchstone for what YA literature is.
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His view of reality is extremely dim.
Well I've never read any of his books, but you ladies have just clinched that I'll never read any of my own volition. Sounds like his books would in fact get thrown into the nearest wall.
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Have you ever MET people? Especially High School Boys? People are both Inherintly Evil AND inherintly Stupid, and God put them there just to ruin your day.
Anyone who has ever worked helpdesk (like I did for five hours today)will testify to the truth of this.
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Currently re-reading Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea books, also just found a new Arthurian trilogy - by (from memory) Kevin Crossley-Someone. The first book is called The Seeing Stone.
Also just picked up and read the first page of one of Philip Pullman's Victorian mysteries, "The Ruby In The Smoke". Not sure if I'm going to like it or not - I like the "His Dark Materials" books very much, but wouldnt read them more than, say, 3 times. Especially not the last two. Ah well, will give it a try.
This is the one good thing about having erratic insomnia - it's as annoying as **** when you want to get some rest, or have normal sleep patterns ... but I managed to read about six books on the weekend, because I couldn't sleep. I'll take reading over sleep any day. Sleep's so overrated.
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I have never worked at a help desk, and I will attest to that. There are certainly exceptions, but as a general rule, I think that Cormier has a good measure of high school guys. I read it last year, and I remember enjoying it more than any other book that we were forced to read in that class, especially To Kill a Mockingbird. I wanted several hours of my life back after reading that book, and the only part that I liked was about a paragraph long, and virtually unrelated to the plot.
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I was a high school guy, and Cormier didn't have a good measure of me. He just made me sick, and I don't want to read books that make me sick.
I read the Ruby in the Smoke in 8th grade for a class, and didn't realize that the same guy later wrote His Dark Materials. I seem to remember liking it well enough.
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It's next to me. I'm *two* pages in now.
Which paragraph in TKAM? I actually rather liked the whole book - probably because I didn't have to study it. Friends who did didn't like it either.
On the other hand, I could just be very very odd. I'm told that often enough, it's probably true.
As for Cormier - I dont like how he portrays teenage boys - but that's not to say I don't like him, I just dont like those aspects of teenage boys, which I think in a few cases are quite true to life.
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Every teenage boy I've ever met is like that.
/me curls up into the foetal position and tries not to remember high school, a process made more difficult by the fact that a person from aforementioned high school was standing at his desk about two minutes ago.
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Kevin Crossley-Holland. That's a pretty good series, though I'm not really into Arthurian stuff. He came to my school a few summers ago--he tells great stories in person.
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the only part that I liked was about a paragraph long, and virtually unrelated to the plot.
Was it the bit where the boys were having a contest to see who could make the longest "golden arc" and Scout said she wasn't gifted in that area? (Okay, that made me laugh... )
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That's the one (in reference to stacer) - wish *I* could meet him in person *grumpy face*
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The part that I was talking about was the part that was talking about Dill, and it said something to the effect of "Dill was always the leader of their games, for obvious reasons. Dill lived in a world of his own, a world of imagination, where he could do anything he wanted to." I can't quote it back verbatim, as it has been almost two years, and I didn't memorize it, but that was the general idea. I just liked the description of him, because I like those kind of characters.
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I always loved Dill. With his shorts, his tall tales, his hair.
I fell in love first, though with the children calling their father by his first name. And a great name at that.
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hrm. Maybe you guys are just like that. I, like Ookla, would not characterize most teenage boys I've known I meet as like the things you're describing. Certainly they're frivolous to the point of annoying me, and certainly they have priorities in the wrong place, but they don't seem as perverse as this thread seems to be describing them.
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Actual quotes from Teenage boys, as best as I can remember them.
"Did you hear Johnno got a chick pregnant? Yeah, she's gonna get an abortion though.
"Yeah, I got a chick pregnant once. Worth it, it's better without a rubber"
"Oh, I had this cake on the weekend, there was hash in the cake and Acid and speed in the icing, oh I was so ****ed up, and I was maggored [Drunk] too! Best party!'
This is what I'm saying.
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Yes, I think we all get the point that there ARE boys out there like that, but not ALL teenage boys are like that and if you think they are then we pity you for going to such a bad school. ok?
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Admittadly, they are the worst examples, but this was actually the best school in the area, and a really good school overall.
THAT'S the concerning part. I'm sure people like that are the best students at certain other schools.
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So I'm on a Greek mythology kick right now. I enjoyed the first two books in a series by Jane Yolen and some other guy (poor author who isn't as famous, I can't remember his name off-hand). It is "The Young Heroes" series and it takes mythic Greek heroes and projects backwards, using what is written about them as adults to write fictional accounts of them as children. Pretty interesting. If you like Greek mythology at all (I'm a borderline fanatic, myself), than I highly recommend the books. The first is Odysseus in the Serpent Maze and the second is Hippolyta and the Curse of the Amazons. I still need to read three, which is about Atlanta, and four, which features Jason of Argonauts fame.
I took a break to read a book in the same genre by a different author. It is called Goddess of Yesterday by Caroline Cooney. Have any of you YA readers heard of this book at all? Apparently it had some hype when it came out. It is interesting, detailing the story of the Illiad from a fictional teenage girl's POV. Helen of Troy is an absolute witch, and Paris isn't much better. I don't see why Menelaus wasn't glad to get rid of Helen. She certainly isn't worth fighting a war over--her only recommendation is that she is reputed to be the daughter of Zeus. I'm not quite sure that is enough motivation--at least, it works in the epic poem, but I don't know if I am buying it in this fleshed-out version. Right now, I am hoping that Menelaus doesn't take Helen back like he does in the Illiad. He'd be much happier without her.
Anyway, I won't pass anymore judgement on Goddess until I finish it. And I'll let you all know what I think of the other Greek books I picked up.
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So, I'm currently reading Magestorm, a Warhammer novel. I'm not very far into it, but it's already better than most Warhammer novels (this is not saying much, sadly).
I'm also reading the WFRP 2nd core rulebook.
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I'm not much into Greek mythology, so I haven't really paid attention to those. Though you need to read The Thief if you haven't, Chimera--it's set in ancient Greece. A little bit of fantasy, though more historical fiction than anything.
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well, let's be clear about something. The Trojan war wasn't about Helen. The romances try to say that, but that's entirely inconsistent with what we know about ancient Greek culture.
The Trojan war was fought because a) Menelaus' honor was slighted, and b) because Paris committed the second worst violation of the guest-host relationship possible.
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well, let's be clear about something. The Trojan war wasn't about Helen. The romances try to say that, but that's entirely inconsistent with what we know about ancient Greek culture.
The Trojan war was fought because a) Menelaus' honor was slighted, and b) because Paris committed the second worst violation of the guest-host relationship possible.
And those were brought up in the book. (I just finished it on Saturday.) It was written in first person from a fictional character's POV (more fictional than the others in the sense that she is never mentioned in the Illiad or Odyssey or Greek Mythology, but created for the purposes of the novel), and she reflects on what a terrible thing it was for Helen to betray her king both by sleeping with Paris but even worse for helping Paris and his men ransack the royal treasury. So Paris, who was under the sacred guest-host relationship, not only stole his host's wife but also all his money and possessions. He was the worst kind of thief. But everyone in Troy just loves Helen. The protagonist Anaxandra can't understand why they do--Helen and Paris have violated so many sacred covenants.
And honor was important to the Greeks. That and the fact that all the suitors of Helen were made to take an oath that they would aide her husband if anyone ever tried to take Helen away from him. They all took the oath before it was decided who would marry Helen, so they did it hoping that they would be the one chosen. Oaths were sacred, too, so Agammemnon and Menelaus could call on every man who took the oath to go fight Troy. (Still, from a modern perspective, it seems like a lot of death and trouble to appease a slight against a man's honor, even if it was a serious slight.)
Goddess of Yesterday was an interesting take on the people behind the Trojan War. I always find folklore retellings fascinating because the best always are a mix between the original and adapting for a modern audience. The biggest difference is the fleshing out of characters to make them more "realistic." That wasn't the purpose of storytelling in the Greek myths or Grimms fairytales. But that is the purpose of storytelling today--what the readers are looking for--so that is what authors do when they explore these archetypal stories that are still with us. And, there were times that it didn't completely work. You are right, e, in saying that the romances make Helen more important than she is. In this book, Helen had to be important because the book was about why the people did what they did--the motivations of the characters that lead to a horrible war. And, as I said before, there were times that I didn't completely buy everyone swooning over Helen and doing whatever she asked just because she was oh-so beautiful. But you kind of had to "suspend your disbelief" and buy into that for the novel to work, so in the end I did. Overall, though, I enjoyed the book. As I said before, if you like Greek mythology and folklore retellings (which will probably be very few if any of you ;)), then I think you will like it.
However, I think you need a background to enjoy this one--Goddess of Yesterday. You need to have some knowledge of the events leading up to the Trojan War to get what is going on. The nice thing about Jane Yolen's series (which I discussed above) was that they were entertaining in and of themselves. Knowing Greek mythology could give you added insights, but the stories carried themselves. I would read Yolen's books before Goddess.
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I finally broke down and decided to try some mainstream fantasy, rather than staying only with really cool YA fantasy. So, yes, I am reading Eye of the World. My first Robert Jordan book EVER! I'm only like four chapters in--it's not remarkable, it's not bad, and I'm not ready to put it down yet. I'm trying to not have too many preconceived notions from what I've heard people say.
Oh, and just before that I finished Daughter of the Forest by Juliet Marillier, a re-telling of the folktale where a girl's older brothers get turned into swans by their evil sorceress stepmother and only the girl can break the enchantment by taking a vow of silence and weaving shirts of a stinging nettle. It was very good! The characters were very well-done. And it was an interesting mix of Irish Druid/British Christian history mixed with magic.
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I'm sorry that Jordan was your intro.
anyway, on Stacer's advice, I am reading Tithe and listening to A Great and Terrible Beauty on audio CD. They both have some flaws, but I think I'm enjoying the latter much more.
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Well, Jordan teaches readers how to stop reading a book without finishing it...eventually.
I also realize I need to read more books. I'm wanting to start a little library/book-exchange in my apartment. Thinking of just have a bookshelf in the front room that has one shelf for book I've borrowed and another for people to return books they've borrowed from me.
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e, I forgot to warn you about the language in Tithe. It serves a purpose, though, as you'll see toward the end. I'll talk with you more about it as you finish.
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actually, imo, some of the images, particularly from the diarty, in Great and Terrible Beauty are more disturbing than the language in Tithe. Not that either really bothers me though.
Before I say the following, note that I'm going to finish both these books, and I think they're pretty good, but they both have major problems. In DaTB, for example, the main character is very unlikeable. She vacillates between feeling bad for herself (while hating everyone else) and doing things to MAKE other people not like her. I can count about one act that helped others wihtout being mostly self interested so far (more than halfway through). does she ever do anything else to make me like her?
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I have the same problem with Great and Terrible Beauty. It has a lot of potential and never really lives up to it. It's not one of my favorites in character or magic system. But it's got a lot going for it, too, in setting and possibilities, which makes me think that other people can do similar things, but better. ;)
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C.S. Lewis: The Man and His Message edited by Andrew C. Skinner and Robert L. Millet
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Harry Potter, book #1. For the first time.
I've already seen 3 of the movies, so it takes some of the magic out of it.
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what? they don't cast as many spells?
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(http://boards1.wizards.com/images/smilies/rimshot.gif)
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that gif rocks so hard, sprig.
thing is, how was any response different from mine even POSSIBLE?
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I'm reviving a 6 month old thread to let you all know I'm reading Orson Scott Card's Worthing Saga. It's quite good. I never enjoyed the Ender's Game series or the Alvin Maker books very much, even though everyone else loves them, but I like this book. Got to have something to do while I'm sick in bed, I guess.
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I'm reading the 163X series by Eric Flint and others. Starts with 1632, it's about a year-2000 West Virginia coal mining town that gets transported back in time to Germany in 1632 in the middle of the 30 years' war. A smackdown ensues. Nothing deep here, but some creative stuff and a good old-fashioned romp. Plus some good history lessons about a time period I know nothing about. (King Gustav II Adolf of Sweden was apparently quite the man.) Continues in 1633 (with David Weber), Ring of Fire anthology with various people, some 1634 books (with yet other people)...I believe a total of 5 books are out now, but something like 15 are in the works. You can read at least 2 of them online for free at baen.com/library.
I'm also reading Ben Bova's Grand Tour series. I'd read Mars and Return to Mars years ago, and I might have read one of the Moon books back then too, but I just recently picked up book 1 of the Asteroid Wars and that got me started again. Read the 2nd one of that too, and various others are in queue. I don't think Ben Bova is a very skilled writer, but he's been turning stuff out in volume in the last few years. Very golden age-flavor stuff, though obviously written recently with the stuff like nanotechnology, greenhouse warming, and the political situation on Earth. Even less deep than the 163X books. But not a bad waste of time.
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I'm reading the first book in Kevin J. Anderson's "Saga of hte Seven Suns." Mostly because he gave it to me (and all the other guys there) when we had coffee a couple years ago (ok, I just ate M&Ms, HE had coffee) at WorldCon. It's got too many characters and the plot moves very slowly. Until they suddenly announce that "many" sites have been destroyed by the mysterious enemy, when the chapter previous it had only been 3.
I'm not really recommending it, but I'm going to try and finish the book anyway.
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I've set a goal for myself to read all the books I own that I haven't read, or get rid of them. As such, I have made a discovery:
There's a freaking *reason* why I haven't read many of these books, i.e. they aren't any good. I finally finished Inkheart. Terrible. I'm reading Eragon now, which isn't a very well written or well paced or original book, but I'm actually enjoying, though that makes me feel somewhat disgusted with myself.
I do have a few books that have only been sitting on my shelf for a few months, so hopefully those will be better than these others that I've been putting off for over a year.
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I decided that last night too.
I read for about 2 hours. Then went to sleep. I expect my goal to fail in the next day or so.
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I just finished "The Kite Runner" by Khaled Hosseini. It's about a boy in Afghanistan in the 1970s-1980s. For the first half of this book I was bored and only pushed my way through it because it's the book for book club. But it was all build-up for the intense second half that kept me up late one night. There were some disturbing parts in it (sexual violence--rape of a boy). But it was very interesting, especially about the Afghan culture and very well written.
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Mistborn, Brandon Sanderson's latest published novel has moved into my favorite book place... His first book Elantris is up there too, and he's releasing an online book called Warbreaker that's only half way finished but it's VERY good too!
www.brandonsanderson.com
he posts in this particular Forum so he may have already mentioned them...
WEEEEEE
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Wait.....did you just bump a thread about 8 months old and not on the front page when the more current thread (mark 3) is stickied so people wouldn't post in the wrong one? Wow, that takes skill...or well, lack of skill.