Timewaster's Guide Archive
Departments => Movies and TV => Topic started by: 42 on December 17, 2003, 05:18:37 PM
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So initially I thought that the ending was too long. I would have cut after Sam smiles at Frodo in Minis Tirith. However, as I thought about it more I kind of like the additional stuff. I starting thinking that if I were to see the movie again, which I will, I would want to see all that other stuff (weddings, Grey Havens, ect...) because it rounds out the film more.
Also, Sean Astin got some great screen time. There is buzz that he's a shoe in for a Oscar nomination. Now that I think about it, that's probably true. Course, he will have to overcome the oscar snobs.
Things I liked:
- The depiction of Smeagol murdering his brother.
- The whole battle for Minis Tirith.
- Aragorn and the undead hoards
- Anytime Smeagol and Sam got together.
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I loved that they actually did the whole heads being pultted into Minas Tirith. I'm glad they did that.
I never did get the whole undead thing in the book. Obviously I was being oblivious in my reading of the last book. I shall return to it in January.
Sam and Smeagol were an awesome duo, and I loved the fight scenes between them.
Gimli was great every time he spoke. What was it, I can't remember it disctinctly but lets try. "No chance of survival, hordes of orcs, and a possibility of death. Lets go." Something along those lines. That was a good line.
The destruction of Sauron was a pretty cool thing to see. That made me a happy person.
The signals from Gondor were a surprise to me in sorts, and I found that cool. A long trip it is though.
And the ending was good, but I wanted to see the destruction and restruction of The Shire. Poor Mr. Lee. As long as the extended makes me have to take a nap before finishing it, that will make me extendedly happy.
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Okay. So i called in sick and watched it with a friend today. I am impatient and have poor impulse control, okay?
Groovy ass film.
But...
1) Haradrim war elephants... but no haradrim infantry, or cavalry?
2) Historically, main use of elephants is to scare the bejesus out of cavalry, since horses find them scary. But the Rohirrim charged the oliphants and didn't care.
3) The easterlings... where were they? They rocked in TTT. Looked so cool.
4) No mouth of sauron :(
5) The film really did skimp dramatically on the Palantir. I almost wonder why he even bothered putting in the few mentions that he did.
6) Long! I was getting restless by the end.
7) The wedding and after was nice.
8) Elrond needs a shave.
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The sacking ot the shire was never filmed. Jackson is being really clear about it. It was one the items that Jackson never even included in the script. Kind of like Tom Bombadil.
He devised an alternate ending for Sauramon that is different from the book. It will be in the extended version.
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There was Easterling infantry, they just got very few close ups. They show them running underneath the Oliphants when they first enter. There is a simular shot later that the Rohan Cavalry doing the same thing.
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The Palantir was poorly skipped too much. And there was no bak and forth with Saruman and Gandalf. Still not enough Entage.
The mouth... I am sorry, but I don't remember that. I am a bad person.
I want to say the easterlings were taken over when Aragorn and the Deaded Army came on the boats. understandable I think.
2) It was due or die man. What other option did they have.
I will have to wait months to believe you 42.
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I want to say the easterlings were taken over when Aragorn and the Deaded Army came on the boats. understandable I think.
2) It was due or die man. What other option did they have.
The guys on the boats were the corsairs, guys from Umbar.
2) You don't understand. Horses will _not_ charge elephants. Unless they are specifically trained to deal with them, which i doubt in this case.
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Entopy, get your supposed sense of reality out of here. Watching horses charge elephants is cool. Plus, they aren't really elephants are they. So yes, horses do not charge elephants, but they will charge Oliphants.
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No need to be a dickhead about it.
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Hey, you brought it up.
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corsairs are not in LotR, they're in Starcraft. Get your genres straightened up. =P
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Are you playing daft, ignorent or just fooling around, the Corsairs of Umbar are a very well documented society in LOTR, they are descendents of Gondorians who fought in the Gondorian Kin Strife, (the civil war that resulted in the fall of Osgilatith) cast out they fled south to live with the Black Numenorians and the Haradrim.
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Just got back, absolutely loved it. The charge of Rohan almost brought me to tears, but Sam eventually got me there anyway. The battles were great, the spider was great, the scene where Denethor eats while Faramir dies is wonderful, and Gollum was perfect. When Eowyn killed the witch-king it was like Peter Jackson opened up my head and just filmed my mind--that's exactly how I see the scene every time I read it. And this movie finally proves my life-long belief that dead people are totally cool.
My only complaint (barring some left-out stuff that will be on the DVD, so I'm complaining about it) is the death of Denethor. The way he dies in the book, burning himself with the Palantir in his hands, was awesome. Here he just kind of runs around and falls. Blah
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Greatest movie of all time twice over.
The death of Sauron was perfect. The witch-king's flail was totally bad. Playing the video game, I had an idea what the undead army would look like, but it was still so much more awesome then I thought it would be. The beam of light off of Minus Morgul was great. That whole place looked awesome, esp the stairs they were just freaky. Gandalf killing that troll in one hit, or better yet when he rides out and scares off all the ringwraiths.
One of my favorite lines is when Sam says I can't carry this burden for you, but I can carry you and then packs him up Mount Doom. That was awesome.
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I kinda liked Gandalf going all Jacky-Chan on the orcs with his staff...
But, seriously, I was suitably impressed. Just reaffirms to me why I'm a fantasy writer.
(Though, as a caveat, Tolkien is the ultimate master of "Uh, where did that army that just saved us come from?" climaxes.)
And, on the Oliphant argument, I have to side with Entropy. Or, at least, the principle Entropy is arguing. Telling him to get his 'sense of reality' out of the discussion does fantasy literature a grave insult.
You see, fantasy depends on its ability to develop an internal logic different from that of our own world. I realize you know this, but with that realization one must understand that any time we allow fantasy to get away with irregularities simply because they're 'cool' or because they're 'magic,' we denigrate the genre and give into what the detractors commonly uphold as the form's gravest stumbling-block to legitimacy.
So, I would formulate two responses to Entropy's point. Either there is a rational story explanation (i.e., the Riders are no regular cavalry, and their horses trained beyond the scope of what is normal,) or it was an error in the story. That's not such a bad thing to acknowledge--any story will have its problems, and this one isn't so grand that it should be considered a serious flaw.
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ok, got home late and talked to the wife so went to bed. but here goes.
The oliphaunts may have been difficult. But I think the fact that the Rohirim are the best horsemen in the world, plus the fact that the whole idea is that the Rohirim are crapping their pants even as they line up to charge is what made it believable. The idea is that even though they all expected to die, they went ahead. Middle-Earth is full of magical connections not in real life, and I suspect that's something you could easily pull in: The Rohirim and their horses are bonded in a way they could over come their mutual fears.
OTOH: the initial cavalry charge was INCREDIBLY realistic, whereas the similar scene in TTT was hard to get around. See, the idea behind a shield wall is that nothing gets through it. Cavalry was introduced because it was scary as heck for the infantry in the shield walls, but it was 100% perception. If a shield wall held, no horse was even going to try to get through it. They'd charge real close, but not do anything. The only way around it I can think of in TTT is that Gandalf definitely DOES have a more intense "friendship" with shadowfax, and it's he who hits the wall first, breaking it, allowing the other riders in. In RotK, however, the fear effect comes in like it should, the wall breaks before the cavalry even hits it, and after that, cavalry can easily decimate the disorganized and fearful infantry. Nice.
What was with that deformed orc with a bad arm? Why didnt' the other orcs just eat him and appoint another leader? No, he wasn't a good fighter. He was pretty crap and moved even more awkwardly than the other orcs.
Nice touch with Aragorn laying smack down on the dead guys. Me likies.
Any of you other Mormons catch Gandalf talking about the sea of glass? That resonated well. Me likies too.
I was into the end as well, though this three stupid cows behind me really shouldn't have even been in the theater. They kept sighing in frustration when it kept going. I turned around and told them they'd already had more than 10 bucks worth of movie, and if it was boring them, they should leave. They pissed me off.
In fact, I wanted to see more. I wanted to see Faramir and Eowyn hook up like in the book, but I guess they were really pressed for time.
I DID really want to see Gandalf v. Saruman at Isengard. V. disappointed that Pippin just found the palantir. Happy with the scene where he looked in the Palantir, but disappointed again that we didn't get to see Aragorn defeat it (after all, this is how everyone knows that he's back, right? How else does the Steward of Gondor know the king is coming?)
Liked how they handled Denethor's death, personally, but the stupid cows behind me giggled. I nearly told them to shut it then.
Mucho cool stuff. Much of anything else I can say is just repetition. Despite disappointment at things being left out, I though Jackson made great editing decisions to get it down as short as he did. Looking forward to more in the DVD, though. Of especially pleasingness is not ruining the Arwen/Aragorn thing and redeeming the Faramir character (which really happens in the TTT extended bits). Also, I liked how the Shelob bit was done. More action than in the book, but still fairly true to what goes on. The tower scene with the orc fight was really nice too.
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(after all, this is how everyone knows that he's back, right? How else does the Steward of Gondor know the king is coming?)
Because 30 years before, Aragorn under an assumed name (Thrandol i think) leads an attack on Umbar that burns all their ships. This being one of the things that helped to save Minias Tirith, since there would have been an incredibly large Corsairs force otherwise. But he did that while Denethors dad was Steward and Denethor was a Gondor captain. Denethor saw through Aragorns disguise and guessed his identity. One can assume that he then kept a close eye on him.
The only way around it I can think of in TTT is that Gandalf definitely DOES have a more intense "friendship" with shadowfax, and it's he who hits the wall first, breaking it, allowing the other riders in.
In that, he did his light thing, which broke the phalanx since all the Urak Hai covered their eyes and lifted their weapons. But i guess you are right on the breaking of the actual ranks.
In fact, I wanted to see more. I wanted to see Faramir and Eowyn hook up like in the book, but I guess they were really pressed for time.
Since at the wedding they are standing together and smile at each other, I assume that they hook up in the EE.
Any of you other Mormons catch Gandalf talking about the sea of glass? That resonated well. Me likies too.
I vaguely remember that... where was it? What connection does it have for you?
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Well, of course Eowyn and Faramir hooked up, I saw that. But it's a REALLY good character moment when Eowyn realizes that all is not lost because she doesn't have Aragorn, and she realizes Faramir has worth. It also helps Faramir realize that he has been redeemed. He's not just second prize, but a valued person. It just would have been a nice touch to have the scene where they meet.
The sea of glass was mentioned when Gandalf is talking to Pippin about death. A lot of the images in that conversation resonate strongly with LDS eschatological ideas. The sea of glass both represents a cleansed and perfected earth as well as being a device that aids in Seership. Of course, Gandalf doesn't go into all that, but the images are there, and it was a fun moment for me.
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actually my favorite thing about the whole series is the lesson we learn:
"Unless you're raised by elves, if you rule a kingdom, you're going to go crazy"
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Its funny because its true.
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Although it really didn't bother me, I would have liked to see Faramir and Eowyn developmeor eof a relationship too. But like Saint said, time.
I like how Sam is portrayed as as much or a hero as anyone. In the books I remember this wasn't as clear to me. I could be wrong. I'm reading them all again (starting with The Silmarillion real soon.)
And one little tiny bit that pleased me much was the battering ram resembling the wolf of Angband who took Beren's hand. An echo back to middle-earth history and a story very similar to LotR. Tolkien knew that history repeated itself.
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Heh. Kjie, i'm reading the silmarrion as i take the bus to and from work, and i literally just read that part. Damned if i can remember the wolves name though :P
Some comments.
1) Minas Tirith ... capital of Gonder, and a 3000 year old city. And yet, it looks like it could house 5 thousand people, max. It had more soldiers than that! Okay, so jerusalem is about that old (i guess) and it does not have an immense population but still.
2) Speaking of soldiers, how come Gondor has such crap ones? I didn't see a single Orc killed by a gondorian in melee combat. Pretty poor showing for a bunch of guys wielding swords and wearing breastplates/platemail. Their archery was rather underwhelming as well, as they killed all of 0 orcs as they marched towards the walls as far as i could see. The guys on top of the gatehouse win awards for not knowing when to quit though - they were still firing when the orcs were busy smashing down the gate to the second level.
3) Osgilliath - did anyone else get the feeling it was all of 3 miles from Minas Tirith? Even towns here in yorkshire are further apart than that.
4) And uhm, ME orcs hate sunlight, and are terrible at fighting in it. So why didn't they wait until dark?
5) What a shot from Eomer, taking out that Mumakil driver. My nomination for best ranged attack of the film.
6) The funniest scene had to be when legolas, having taken down that mumakil, lands and has this half smug, I'm so good, and half 'Who else wants some?' look, and Gimli just splutters and says, 'That still only counts as one!'.
7) Sean Austin did wonderful work in this. His scenes were touching without being over the top.
I cannot now remember if any of those questions arose or were answered in the book...
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Yeah, the whole Osgiliath being so near didn't work so well for me. It didn't ruin anything, and it probably helped to reign in the film timewise, but it wasn;t too realistic. What was more of a leap though is how in Minas Tirith they decide to go assault the black gate and the next moment they're there! How that for a speedy ride/march? Through some pretty crappy terrain also. I can't remember how or if that was handled in the books, which is why I'm reading them all again.
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btw: how do you like The Silmarillion, Entropy? I know lots who don't care for it as much because it isn't as closely narrated as LotR.
Personally, it's my favorite of Tolkien's stuff. It really showcases how good Tolkien was. How real he made it all.
My favorite parts are Beren & Luthien, and also the oath of Feanor and how it has this terrible damning effect for centuries afterwards. Not that she played a huge role in The Silmarillion, but I find Galadriel one of the most interesting players in LotR because of what she probably went through with regards to that oath.
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Well, watching 7 thousand men march for 2 weeks is not my idea of fun :P
The problem is that the time element got screwed - note how in one shot, frodo and sam are in orc gear, whereas in the next they are not. There is obviously a lot of footage to go there in the EE. So they did have a long march, but jackson only showed it with a tiny little shot. I guess that in the EE he will try to expand it a little.
That reminds me - Eomer seemed, like Elrond in film 1, to be a lot harsher, more.. bitter almost than in the books.
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Yeah, I can imagine they had a devil of a time cutting stuff out.
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What I was wondering is how Sam and Frodo got their elvish cloaks back at the end, since they were carrying nothing once they lost the orc gear. I remember noticing that they were in shirtsleeves and suspenders (braces, whatever) and wondering where the cloaks went, and then there they were, magically.
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What had they got in their pocketses?
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So here's my complaint: It's one I've voiced before, but I feel it needs repeating.
Why in the heck did Aragorn hook up with Arwen instead of Eowyn? Now, in my opinion, Eowyn is hotter than the fires of Mount Doom, and Arwen is dopey looking, but let's ignore that for a minute (because I know that many of you disagree).
Eowyn kills the witch-king, and she is tougher than crap, and ACTUALLY DOES STUFF. Arwen, on the other hand, does NOTHING except mope around and look pouty. The last time she did anything other than pine and cry was in the first movie. Sure, she's willing to give up immortality, but that doesn't make her any cooler. She's self-sacrificing, but so is that the only basis for their romance?
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Anyone else note how much of a feminist moment Eowyns victory over the witch king seemed? What with, 'I'm no man' and all.
btw: how do you like The Silmarillion, Entropy? I know lots who don't care for it as much because it isn't as closely narrated as LotR.
Personally, it's my favorite of Tolkien's stuff. It really showcases how good Tolkien was. How real he made it all.
My favorite parts are Beren & Luthien, and also the oath of Feanor and how it has this terrible damning effect for centuries afterwards. Not that she played a huge role in The Silmarillion, but I find Galadriel one of the most interesting players in LotR because of what she probably went through with regards to that oath.
Holy crap, only just noticed this post.
I love it. While it is very scoped out, very light on the details, the feeling of a mythic history to the events in the lord of the rings that is nevertheless internally consist and real feeling, is just breathtaking. Stuff like how aragorn sings about luthien in fellowship - imagine how hearing about that story, from all those centuries ago (lets see... there was about 400 years of the first age left after luthien died... then 3000 ish years in second and third ages, makes it 6 and a half thousand years before) feels for him, what with Arwen and all.
Personally, galadriel is plain fascinating - she is at least 7000 years old by the time of the war of the rings. Can you imagine the amount of knowledge you could aquire in that time frame?
My favourite parts of it are... i am not sure. I like the feeling of inescapable doom from the Oath, and how it gradually ensares everyone involved. Beren and Luthien was not bad, but some parts - sauron singing - were a bit wierd. But basically, its the feeling of a mythic history, a real historical backdrop to the world of LOTR, that i like the best. The great battles are good reads - not so much for the usual gory accounts (since there is none) but for the brief descriptions of heroism and loss in them. The theme of wonders and glory lost to tragedy and time really ring through powerfully in the silmarrion. But the stuff about Numeror is the worst bit, although i have not got to it yet this time around. Not certain why.
I like the silmarrion so much that i am joining a play by post game set in 1690TA (around the time of the fall of Arnor) as a Elven minstrel who has studied and sings about the first age.
BTW - i checked my "Atlas of middle-earth" by Karen Wynn Fonstad and the battle of the pelennor fields took place on the 15th of march. The battle in front of the black gate took place on the 25th. The journey was about 50 miles or so.
Holy crap, i'm talking a lot in this thread. Shows how much i like LOTR.
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So here's my complaint: It's one I've voiced before, but I feel it needs repeating.
Why in the heck did Aragorn hook up with Arwen instead of Eowyn? Now, in my opinion, Eowyn is hotter than the fires of Mount Doom, and Arwen is dopey looking, but let's ignore that for a minute (because I know that many of you disagree).
Eowyn kills the witch-king, and she is tougher than crap, and ACTUALLY DOES STUFF. Arwen, on the other hand, does NOTHING except mope around and look pouty. The last time she did anything other than pine and cry was in the first movie. Sure, she's willing to give up immortality, but that doesn't make her any cooler. She's self-sacrificing, but so is that the only basis for their romance?
Uh.. how about the up front and simple answer: Aragorn has a decades long (at least) relationship with Arwen. He knows her well and they've actually had a chance to bond. There's a lot more to a relationship than what you've accomplished in the last few weeks.
Plus, I'll be she cooks. As we see in the ex. ed. of TTT, Eowyn cooks for crap. Maybe he just likes brunettes too.
as for the feminist moment, it's kind of ironic, actually. Because Eowyn beats the witch-king by being a woman who acts like a man. She dresses as a man, disguises herself as a man, does things that are typically male in her society, and then fights in war, which is supposed to be male in this context. The witch-king's response to "I'm no man" should have been "then stop acting like one."
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Eowyn kills the witch-king, and she is tougher than crap, and ACTUALLY DOES STUFF.
Yeah. But arwen doesn't
a) look like she is about to start crying when she faces the witch king
b) has a nicer sword
c) looks better while doing it, although her taste in dresses is questionable.
Plus, her dads rich.
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I dunno, i like the diaphanous thing in TTT
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I like the idea/conspiracy that the Witch king and Tom Bombadil are the same person.
You can read it at http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.htm
Very interesting.
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I was thinking of the blue gown she was wearing in RotK. Does nothing for her.
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Ok, at the risk of turning this into a girly thread, I think you're right. She needed something with more shape than she wears most of the time.
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What do you guys think of this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/21/movies/21JAME.html
Personally, I think she's setting up a straw man or whatever it's called. It's NOT a chick flick, but that doesn't mean that it can't convey great emotion. And it did. Especially in Sam. Just because it also includes action doesn't mean that there can't be emotion, and it seems she's coming from an anti-fantasy and anti-action movie stance.
Besides, I know many women (examples: myself, MoD, fuzzy, and Brenna for starters) who love it for itself. Admittedly, there is also the component of enjoying the eye candy, but that's only a small part of it.
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You have to register >:(
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yeah, summarize, I refuse to register for NYTimes just because there seems to be no call for it other than to track my info- even if it's just while I'm there. Maybe I'm silly, i mean, that helps them get advertising which keeps them in business without charging me, but I'm stubborn. Also, lazy.
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okay, will do that tonight when i get home
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Okay, so i registered. Saint, if you want to read it, log in with the nick "entsuropi" and the password "chocolate".
I agree with you fuzzy, she is obviously violently anti-fantasy. I am against romance films, and as such i would hardly spend my time commenting on them. Uninformed opinion. The series was full of very emotional scenes; the hobbits fighting boromir before they try to go over carahandras; the characters reactions after the loss of gandalf; the scene with boromirs death; any scene with sam or arwen in it pretty much; the entire end sequence of RotK and so on. She is consciously ignoring that in favour of a quick attack on geek culture.
BTW, a straw man is a smoke screen argument. So i think you were using the term wrong, but saint will probably correct me :D
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"Uninformed opinion"--yes, much better term. Is there some sort of term for that, other than itself, like straw man? Red herring? That's like a straw man, too, though. Hmm. Okay, so I don't know what I'm talking about, but you get the drift.
On a completely unrelated note, I just was given advanced screening tickets for tonight to Paycheck. It's free, so who would pass that up? So maybe I'll have an opinion tonight. I don't have anything against Ben Affleck (well, I don't think he's the best of actors, either, but won't avoid films with him in them), so maybe I'll have the chance to watch for what others on the board have noticed in him. What story is this based on? Who wrote it? Can't remember.
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That Tom Bombadil=The Witch King article was great! It's just like my theory that R2D2=Master Jedi.
As for why Aragorn didn't end up with Eowyn...well, maybe they just didn't go together. He was right when she said she didn't love him, she just loved the image of him. Faramere is a much better match for her anyway.
Also, I'm sure Arowen would be far less dopey if played by ANYONE other than Live Tyler. Her little girlish face and pouting eyes didn't make for a very strong characterization of Arowen.
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The term Straw Man comes from the phrase "setting up a straw man just to knock it down." So, for example, if someone wrote an article about how there was no emotion in LotR and then refuted that idea in the same article, that would be a straw man. Anything that exists solely to be destroyed.
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I honestly dont know why that article was even in the paper.
Bias is fine, but please. This person has shown that they hate the Genre by degrading people who like it. Calling them geeks or childish adolecents if they are men. Or stupid romantics if they are women. A better article would have discussed how its hard to have great personal emotion in an epic with hundreds of characters.
by Line three of the article I was screaming "I get it, you didn't like the movie."
Which brings me to an interesting point, I think there are a few reviewers out there saying bad things about ROTK just to be the dissenting opinion. I bet if you pulled the aside and said did you like it they would blush and say yes in fact I did, but since the NYT doesnt want to look like every other paper we were pressured to give it a bad review. Just a theory.
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Eowyn and Aragorn
Im glad they didn't get together, Remember in the book she and Faramir are supposed to fall for each other in the houses of healing and cement the bond between Rohan and Gondor forever. The scenes between her and Faramir would have been great too. Two amazingly resolute personalites, honest, true with a bit of rebelious streak. Eowyn would have been miserable with Aragorn now that the excitement of war is over. She needs that kind of excitement in her life.
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I know..I know... I'm not compaining about the movie's treatment of the Eowyn and Arwen thing, I'm more complaining about the fact that Arwen does absolutely nothing whatsoever (she does even less in the book). I understand that she and aragorn have had a relationship for years, but unless we're shown some reason why they like each other, I don't see why we should care. And I don't.
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My brother-in-law (and Mustard's, for that matter) is the same way--he hates the LotR movies just because everyone else likes them. Of course, when you consider that this guy also told us that Pearl Harbor was awesome and that the Fast and the Furious was going to win Best Picture, you realize that he's not exactly an intelligent, useful source of film criticism.
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Oh come on. You know you just wanted to see Arwen an Eowyn duke it out in a big puddle of orc death or something.
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I vote we tie this individual up with rubber straps and pummel him for being so foolish.
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Ok fine. We'll compromise. Jell-o?
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well, I wasn't talking about you, but now that I think about it, this co-ed naked crisco twister championship thing you've got going with Arwen and Eowyn is pretty cool.
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Hmm...I wonder if anyone has any fantasies about that...
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definitely not me...
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First things first: The battle of Minias Tirith was NOT AS COOL as the Battle of Helm's Deep. Close, though.
Aragorn getting his sword Rocked.
Legolas killign the Oliphant Rocked.
The Rohan riders preparing for battle, and finally arriving, Rocked.
My absolute favourite part of the film was the lighting of the beacons of Gondor. I liked the whole feeling as they sent their signal, one by one, and Aragorn runs in to see Eomer, and says "The beacons are alight! Gondor calls for our aid!" and Eomer replies with my favourite line in the film: "And Rohan shall Answer!"
Eowyn fighting the Witch-Lord ROCKED.
The bits I didn't like:
I think there wasn't enough denouement between Minas Tirirth and the massive battle at Mordor. Aragorn's "This day we fight!" speech should have been rousing, but I was too tired out from the last battle.
I think the ending was too long. I admit I still haven't read the books, but if I was Peter Jackson, I would have made an executive decision and cut it by about three quarters. Especially since I didn't really see any relavence in Frodo writing a book, and Bilbo leaving for somewhere.
Major good movie though.
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I dunno. I just watched the extended version on DVD (got it for christmas, natch) and i have to wonder at the magically disappearing elves.
300 men.
300 elves.
Lets be generous and say 200 of each die in the battle. You see the elves retreating to the keep, and then they disappear. You see the men retreating into the mountain, and then they disappear. So that by the end of the film, apparently only 12 men are left. Wheres the other 200 infantry?
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Yeah, I'm sorry, but while Helm's Deep was cool, it was too long for me, and it seemed like nothing changed in that time. There were always enough men and elves until it was suddenly convenient for there to be no one left.
Anyway, I liked the end. I don't see how you could NOT see the book relevant. After the continuous discussion, esp in TTT about the stories of old, and Bilbo writing in it at the very beginning of the series.
The leaving scene IS the end. You'll recall Frodo and Gandalf and the elves all left then too. It partially shows how the hobbits were so important: NO ONE goes to the undying lands but elves, and the VERY few people invited: Bilbo and Frodo, for example.
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The battle of Helm's Deep was more detailed and intimate, whereas the siege of Gondor was more sweeping and epic. They both have their merits, but I'll take the charge of the Rohirrim over just about any other action scene in any other movie. That was so stirring I felt like I was in a blender.
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I have to say that the interaction between Gandalf and Pippin was my favorite part of the movie. I'd been looking forward to that since the first time I saw Fellowship. My dad read the trilogy to my brothers and me when we were younger and I can still hear in my mind the disgruntled voice of Gandalf (as read by my dad) when he called Pippin by his full name. I also like the scene where Pippin looks at the seer stone and confronts the dark lord. To me it is a way of showing that all Hobbits have this inherent strength that Sauron cannot easily corrupt. It's not just Frodo, all Hobbits have this quality.
I loved Gandalf's reference to a life after death. I thought immediately of Tolkein's friendship with C. S. Lewis (not to say that it necessarily has anything to do with anything), but more than that I think it gives a deeper meaning to why the armies fight, and where some of their courage comes from. When there is nothing to fear from death, then it makes it easier to do the right thing, despite the risks.
I think HoM is selling Arwen a little short. Put your personal feelings about Liv Tyler aside and look at the character itself. (I think she's pretty, but then I'm a brunette, maybe that has something to do with it. I also don't find that her acting style bugs me, but I can understand if she doesn't hold the same charms for the rest of you.) Arwen's strength is not her ability to wield a blade, though in Fellowship they show that she is not unskilled with one. Arwen's strength is in her faith. One of my favorite lines is when she says "You are Illsadur's heir, not Illsadur himself." At the times Aragorn doubts himself, her faith in him and his abilities remains strong. It reminds me a lot of Mary Smith, Hyrum's wife and Joseph Fielding's mother (I think that's right). Her strength came from her faith in God and in the leaders of the church. She was never unwilling to make sacrifices, and she was a great blessing to many throughout her life. I think this is the kind of woman, and the kind of strength, that Peter Jackson was trying to protray with Arwen as a character.
As for Arwen vs. Eowyn, I don't think the choice was that hard. Aragorn realized that to Eowyn he was an icon, a heroic figure, but to Arwen he was a person. She saw him as he was, and sometimes she saw him more clearly than he saw himself. I think that's one of the signatures of true love, the ability to see the truth and love the person anyway.
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MoD: Not to play the devil's advocate, but Fell pointed something out that I found a little interesting. Instead of looking at Arwen as a woman of great faith (you compared her to Mary Smith), you could also think of her as the rebellious daughter, turning her back on faith: marrying outside the covenant, and trading the blessings of eternity for a marraige that will end at death.
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you COULD, but I think you'd be ignoring certain elements. The best Biblical comparison would probably be Esther, who ALSO marries outside of the faith but is a great heroine because of it. In the movies, especially, Aragorn could not do all he did without Arwen's aid. It's is because of the relationship he has with her that he has the strength and will to do what he must. IOW, if he didn't hook up with Arwen, he might have failed at much of what he did. So even if she did marry out of the covenant, the result of that "disobedience" was the salvation of the world. So I don't think it's safe to look at her as so wicked like that and still keep it all in context.
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Kind of kicks the legs out from under the whole romance, doesn't it? At least from a Mormon perspective.
I do think you have some good points about faith and strength, MoD, especially in light of one of our discussions in the book thread: women don't have to become masculine in order to be heroic or strong. Even by that measure, however, her strength is basically just standing there and telling Aragorn he's the bomb: if Arwen were out there holding a family together in the midst of horrible trials (like Mary Smith) it would be a little more impressive than lying on a chaise and griping to her dad.
That said, I really don't think that Aragorn could have done what he did without Arwen's support and belief. I'm just saying that I, myself, would have definitely chosen Eowyn.
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then I think you'd be shallow Fell, since you appear to be basing that entirely on what happens in the story and not on the long term previous relationship. You'd throw that away knowing what she has done and will be just because she hasn't killed a Nazgul lately?
*edit* I find myself sounding aggressive in a lot of the threads lately. Note that I don't feel aggression, so try to edit that feeling out if you sense it. okithx
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You'd throw that away knowing what she has done and will be just because she hasn't killed a Nazgul lately?
Once again, I say that this just doesn't work (in the context of the movie): We don't know what she has done and will be, so why should we, the audience, care?
And the Esther comparison is weak: Esther did stuff. Arwen just bouys Aragorn up by hanging around.
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If I'm placing myself into that situation, rather than Aragorn, then my decision would be inherently shallow--I have no previous relationship with either woman, whereas Aragorn does. Of course, I'd try to take them out on some dates first, and get to know them a little better, but that would be kind of hard, given that Arwen is leaving. Maybe if she came along on the Fellowship I could get to know while fighting orcs at the same time...but then if Eowyn joined the Fellowship as well that would be really awkward. Dating must be hard for epic heroes.
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I sense Fell's next cross-genre novel coming on.
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Which is something that RPG World (http://www.rpgworldcomic.com) looks at. Yeah. But if we're being shallow, I'd still take Arwen, since even if she's eventually going to die, she's going to stay young looking longer than Eowyn (plus, I'm into brunettes, and I'm not just saying that because my wife is one).
This is really weird, accusing someone of being shallow because he's picking the girl who initially seems to have more depth and character...
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Would you really want the one who won't age? Because you'll be aging, and eventually she'll want someone younger. But if she's not as shallow as we are, I guess that's not a problem :)
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woah, wait? she's allowed to be shallow to? I'll have to rethink this.
but I don't think I have worries. She made the call when I wasn't there and lots of nancy elves were, so she's already shown loyalty. Besides, I'd be king, right? I'll just have a harem if she's unfaithful.
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I'm going to have to backtrack on my post on the other thread, where I said I don't like blondes. Usually I don't, but in this case I'd pick Eowyn--but only based on the movies, since that's what I've experienced most recently.
Eowyn just feels more real to me. Arwen is too...elfy. Even if I separate out the Liv Tyler, I'd rather be with someone who didn't feel so...well...elfy.
But, one thing we have to decide is whether we're arguing who we would have picked, or who we would have picked if we'd been Aragorn. I think Arwen is good for him--he's larger than life, like her, and it's a good match.
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We don't have to decide anything of the sort. We can argue both. Though I agree with you that she was best for Aragorn.
However, I think you're just prejudiced against elves. Though I think you could make a successful comic on Keenspot about how elves are so skilled and amazing at everything
... except when it comes to marriage relations. I mean, when was the last time you saw a happily married elf? Maybe they're bad in bed or can't cook or sew or even have a good conversation if they're not talking about how humans suck and Sauron's going to destroy the world.
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Galadriel seemed quite happy.
Now, wait, what do you mean Ester "did stuff"? She married a king, knowing that if she reveiled to him her religion and heritage he would probably off her. Great deeds to be sure. But I don't really think that Arwen's running toward Rivendall with Frodo, the nine Ring Wraiths at her back was much to sneeze at. She showed courage of a different type.
And I think you are Liv Tylering it when you say Arwen did little but sit around griping at her dad. She told her dad she wanted to marry this guy, and Elrond lied to her, so she agreed, for love of her father, to follow his wishes, until the vision of her son convinced her that she should stay.
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Yeah, but Esther risked death by revealing that she was jewish, and then she pled with what's his name to spare everybody's life. Arwen just hangs out and inspires Aragorn to greatness.
And the saving Frodo doesn't cut it for me: that should have been Glorfindl.
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I think Elves must be very bad in bed, or they'd have overpopulated Middle Earth long ago. Look at Elrond--he's thousands of years old, and he only has three kids? They either gestate for centuries, or they just don't do a lot of reproducing. After ten thousand years, even the best contraceptive system is going to fail enough times to give Elrond ten or twelve kids.
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I think Elves must have breeding seasons, like most animals. They only go into heat during a certain decade or so.
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or (as I see it) more likely: they don't have breeding seasons, so they have to be really bored. why they don't get bored in those homes though...
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Well, we know elves like to travel. So maybe they just get stuck on a lot of business trips. But then why aren't there more half-elves like Elrond? Course, in the D&D books (and many other fantasy dime novels) half-elves and other halfbreeds easily out populate any purebreds.
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that'd be just like dogs
But on the D&D connection: maybe all elves are gamers. ie, they don't shower, so none of them can stand each others' smell
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I think Tolkien describes all elves as being sweet smelling. Perhaps then they don't get to gether to keep from canibalizing one another.
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maybe they do cannibalize each other. Particularly their children. Galadriel's dirty little secret.
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Which brings us to the question of whether eating other intelligent species can really be considered cannibalism? I mean if orcs need to eat men to live, it's just their duty as a predatory animal.
Could someone please get a National Science Fellowship to study the mating habits of elves or the ecological systems of Middle Earth so we can get these questions answered. Then they could quit wasting their money on something normal like curing cancer and get some real research done.
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Personally I think they "get it on" just as often as humans, but elven females only ovulate every decade or so, so it takes longer to get pregnant.
OR, you could look at this way. Elves are very precise, everything they do takes a long time. Like they spend 30 years crafting a chair. Maybe making love is a long the same lines?
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no, I think they eat their young.
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If elven women only have periods once every ten years, it would certainly explain why Aragorn chose Arwen over Eowyn.
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So between finals and a cruise I was just able to go see RotK tonight and I've got to echo everything people have said here...it was superrockariffic! A great end to the trilogy and just so well done all around that I can't pick out one best scene.
Some interesting notes though...
1) Did anyone else think the orc general looked a little too much like Sloth from the Goonies?
2) Minas Tirith is approximately 200 yards from Osgilliath, you'd think they'd send more support :)
3) They left out my favorite scene, which makes me kinda of sad. When Aragorn takes the Palantir and reveals himself to Sauron with a "Yeah, come get some" attitude. That part gave me chills in the book. Would have been nice to see Denethor's Palantir too so it doen'st appear that lordship makes one crazy in ME, as has been stated.
That's about it...
As for the Silmarillion, I finally got a chance to read it on my cruise. I was amazed at the depth it adds to ME and I think Tolkien's love for his world really shines through. And so many things make so much more sense...like why Sauron fears Aragorn so much. It really was a great read. Beren and Luthien has to be one of the best in the book though.
Now I'm curious as to where the info on Aragorn burning the corsairs is? Unifinished Tales?
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LoTR Appendices i think.
Tell me: how did you think the silmarrion showed why sauron fears aragorn? The tales of numeror? The bit on the last alliance?
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LOL Dr.P (it's going to take me a bit to get use to calling you that) I just saw it tonight too. All I can say, since I haven't read the books, is that the move never ended and that was realy annoying. I couldn't enjoy the end of the moive (all that after the ring gets melted) becasue I was worried about being late to work. I almost walked out early.
Oh and if they can make Gollum look so good why can't they even make CGI Legolas look decent. I mean Jar-Jar was better GCI and blue screen then the whole elephant scene.
Stroywise I didn't care for the whole undead mountan person thing. That totaly runined the last fight for me. This whole thing was suppose to be the battle of man agaist the evil and they only win because of an undead horde! where's the struggle in that? Thanks alot Tolkin for getting lazy and writeing a crappy ending to an otherwise cool war.
Besideds those things the move was awsome.
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whoa!!!! Perhaps you should read the books instead of criticising tolkiens writing... to condense over a thousand pages into a coherent series of movies Jackson had to jumble some stuff up.
In the books the undead thing happens way off camera and the only people they fight and destroy are the corsairs... then Aragorn Gimli and Legolas gather up all the men of the south and sail to Minas Tirith arriving just in the nick of time. The battle at the black gate is... well wow in the book, especially since pippen kills a troll single handedly.
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1) Did anyone else think the orc general looked a little too much like Sloth from the Goonies?
That's who he looked like. I've seen the movie twice now and couldn't figure out what it reminded me of so strongly.
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That would explain the odd war cry: "Hey you guys!"
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It's going back to "Mr." soon as I figure I can fake being a doctor over the holidays just for fun. :) Only another year and a half til I'm legit and all.
I was with a few members of my gaming group at the movie and one of the lines in Cirith Ungol was hilarious in light of a recent game.
We're playing through the "Smackdown the Slavers" series in Hackmaster and we recently landed in one of the main Slaver cities in disguise. An orc approached us and tried to buy our torchbearer. As my character was the only one who spoke orc, I dealt with him. It was a really fun bit of roleplay and I ended the conversation with "Kill you later" to which he replied "Not if I kill you first" which we decided was the orc equivalent of saying goodbye.
So when Sam said virtually the same thing when he kills the orc in Cirith Ungol, it got a mighty roar of laughter from us.
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Oh, and as for why Sauron fear Aragorn so much...
I had no idea that the Numenorans completely smacked down Sauron long ago! Talk about a humiliating defeat for him. Of course, he got his revenge...big time. Aragorn, being one of the last to carry the blood of Numenor, is still a reminder of his defeat and subsequent captivity and its a constant reminder that he can be brought down.
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Sauron was there when Numenor fell into the ocean. He was "killed" and had to assume spirit form, but managed to take the One Ring with him. This is of course at the time we was turning the current rulers of Numenor into the Ringwraiths. Sauron and Nomenor have a lot of connections.
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That's the revenge I was talking about. Sauron was the catalyst that caused the fall of Numenor
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Ah, I see. Also the fact that Aragorn won the battle at Gondor, had the same sword that cut the hand off Sauron, and the Witch King had been killed. Not just who Aragorn was, but what he had done would scare Sauron pretty good.
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I think its funny though that in the end he would have been most scared of little Frodo. heh.
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I think that might have been one of Tolkien's objectives in writing about small boy-like person.
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What, you mean to be funny? Lol, maybe.