Timewaster's Guide Archive
Games => Table-Top Games => Topic started by: 42 on June 06, 2003, 09:11:25 PM
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This article is basicly the source of my confusion:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ms/20030606a
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Yeah, I don't get it either. Are they trying for D&D clix or soemthing? 'rare' figures and such? ANd they dont' mention Chainmail, which I thought they were still using for the D&D-esque mini wargaming line. When I buy a mini for an RPG, it's so he'll look like a specifici character, so I dont' want to buy "random" figures. That would be lame. What's that about?
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It appears WoTC are attempting to use their brand name to take over the clix market (which is, it should be noted, a lot different from the warhammer market).
It should be interesting to see how this goes. Wizkids are very firmly entrenched now, but WoTC are at the very least a lot bigger than them, and probably bigger than Games Workshop (although chainmail, which i assume was their answer to warhammer, didn't do that well... its probably easier to do clix minitures than to do decent 28mm models that will sell well and at a profit).
Oh, and Saint "Rare" refers to the likliness of picking up a specific miniture. What is likely, is that... Goblins & orcs - common. Trolls - uncommon. Beholders - rare. Get the idea?
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Wow. They tried to compete with GW and died, so now they're trying to compete with WK. Good luck. The models look overly simple, and the painting ( I have to assume that they put their best work in the web gallery) looks like very early Mage Knight. I think people will buy it, since the WotC stamp of approval is bound to do something, but it's never going to be a serious competitor with WK because they won't support it nearly as well--they might try, but we all know they won't.
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I wonder if they have decided they cannot really do more in the RPG market, so they are trying to expand out into similar markets. Unfortunately noone told them that messing with the bigboys of the tabletop market is not very clever.
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Yes, Entropy, I know. WotC practically INVENTED that system of getting the exact one you want with Magic. However, They don't seem to exactly have a game described there, so why do I want to buy fantasy and rpg minis. I guess I'm saying i won't buy it, because I don't wargame, and I only buy minis for one reason: to represent my character.
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Oh, and I was also going to point out some trivia. I'm not sure how old Warhammer is, but the original Chainmail system antedates D&D, and is, in fact, what D&D was based on.
Although I'm sure that your assessment of the current incarnation of Chainmail's relation to Warhammer is pretty much accurate.
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Chainmail started in 1971, and D&D came about in 1974, however their is debate about how much influence Chainmail had on D&D.
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Er... I'd like to know who's debating that. Because the relationship is pretty clear.The very first set of three booklets (by Gygax and Arneson) even called D&D "Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures." Chainmail is reference both in those books and in the first ed. AD&D core books. "The basic system is that from CHAINMAIL," . . . Melee can be conducted . . . by the CHAINMAIL system," "most firing and melee is based on CHAINMAIL." from page 25 of volume three of that original set. Whoever is debating this relationship is talking out of ther ear.
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The rumor is that Arneson was more influential in the creation of D&D than Gygax. Where as Gygax was supposedly the driving force begind the fantasy supplement of Chainmail. Supposedly the creation of AD&D in 1978 is the ressult of Gygax wanting D&D to resemble Chainmail more. The credits given to Chainmail in the orginal D&D are rumored to be nothing more than Arneson's appeasement to Gygax. Obviously Gygax had the larger ego of the two, and probably still does. People speculate that Gygax took a lot of credit for Arneson's work on D&D. Arneson states that he created D&D out of his frustration with Chainmail, he also doesn't take a lot of credit for Chainmail.
So the debate basicly centers around Arneson and Gygax not having the same vision (which is why they eventually split), so you can take that to mean what you want.
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I find it interesting how GW went from RPGs to tabletop, and TSR went from tabletop to RPGs. And now both dominate their chosen markets, GW to a larger extent but then i think the RPG market is larger than the tabletop market.
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Even the way you put it, 42, it's still very clear that Chainmail was the driving influence behind the creation of D&D, which leaves my original description true.
Plus all it takes is a comparison between the original Chainmail rules and the early D&D rules to see that they're quite similar. Whether or not Arneson claims he was throwing Gygax a bone or not, the similarities are still there. No, they're not the same game. Yes, they are closely related.
As far as copyrights go, it's kind of silly to argue it now, except to show that Gygax's later stuff really kinda sucks, which it does, and does on it's own right.
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I'm just saying that some Arneson supporters don't like to associate orginal D&D with Chainmail. I don't really care, it's just what I found in my research.
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I've heard several versions of the Gygax/Arneson debacle and none of them sound better or worse than the rest really. As said, Chainmail came first and was used to run Blackmoor, Arneson's mini campaign which inspired Gygax to write D&D. If anyone is interested I can get several accounts of D&D's history that have been written up on various boards I frequent.
They announced WOTC new mini game a few months back and I still feel like I did back then...unexcited. I bought into Chainmail and the fact they dumped the line for this piece of crap really makes me mad. And have you seen the release schedule on this thing? I think there's a new expansion every other month at the last update I saw. Yeesh. This should go nowhere.
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When people buy this and realize that it's mostly a marketing ploy, they'll want more and end up getting into Mage Knight. That will make me laugh.
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I have some of these. The figs are alright, but are mostly just game pieces just like a chess piece. They aren't all that "cool" like having an army of painted reaper figs sitting out on a shelf, just chuncks of plastic you use for a game.
The game is actually pretty cool, the rules are a lot like DnD, but either futher simplified or with an alteration that speeds up the game. For example, if you target someone with a ranged weapon it has to be the closest target to you. There's also a bunch of terrain effects that could be a blast with even a regular DnD game. Like bloodrock, if you are standing on it you don't have to confirm a crit. Or magic circles that give you a bonus to attack and AC if you stand inside them, etc.
The figs would have to get quite a bit better though to really be "collectable", cause the only real collectable value in them now is trying to get all the minis you want in your army, not to set out on a shelf or something like that.
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eh, I'd still rather buy minis on the basis of knowing what i'm getting BEFORE i violate the return policy by opening the package.
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Like I said, you don't want to buy these if you are looking for Minis. Buy them only if you want to play the game itself. If you are interested in adding it to your dnd game, all you really need is the mini handbook, not the figs.