Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Master_Rahl22 on December 23, 2008, 07:28:55 PM
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So, I actually read all 3 Mistborn books and Elantris in a period of 6 weeks after I finally picked up the first Mistborn. I kept finding myself in the book store going, "Oh I should get that one book by that one guy who's finishing Wheel of Time!" and not remembering the name.
Anywho, I finished Elantris last night and I loved it, but one thing nags at me a bit. If Dilaf knew the whole time that he was just there to slaughter all of the Arelish and Teoish people, what is the point of him subtly undermining Hrathen and working to build his own power? I enjoyed that part of Hrathen's POV while I was reading it, but looking back I can't see Dilaf's motivation at all. If he's there to kill them whenver he feels like it, why wait? If he's supposed to wait the 3 months before he kills everybody, why bother with Hrathen and his efforts to convert people? Like I said, I really enjoyed the book overall, but I'm just a bit confused by this part.
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Excellent question. I didn't much like the Hrathen sections, so I'm afraid I didn't pay too much attention to them, and I never really thought of this question before.
All I can guess is that Dilaf needed to stay around - that is, he needed Hrathen not to get him exiled before it was time to carry out his slaughter. His subtlety and cunning may have been necessary to lull Hrathen, as well as the Arelish government and nobility, into complacency until all the preparations were in place.
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I always just assumed it was how Dilaf's crazy mind worked. He was obviously long gone in the sanity department, so I just took it as another brilliant crazy scheme. He obviously didn't like Hrathen, and what better way to screw with someone than mind games? :)
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Actually, that's explained (kind of) Dilaf said at the end something along the lines of "YOu didn't have three months to convert them, but to warn them. The death was coming no matter what." So he waited three months to give Hrathen time to warn the people (which he instead used to try to save them.)
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I can see two possibilities:
1) Hrathen was a decoy. He was sent to invite the opposition and distract everybody from the efforts needed to get the monks of Dahkor into the country. If this is the case, I think we can assume that they weren't completely ready when Hrathen arrived, and his presence made the remaining steps easier.
2) Hrathen really was given a chance (we don't get Wyrn's POV, after all, just Dilaf's. Dilaf really is insane.) He failed, though, when Telrii acted so stupidly.
Either option is coherent, in my opinion.
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Hmm, its been a while since i read the book, but i'm guessing that the Wyrn allowed Hrathen 3 months to try and convert them. However, he also knew that the king wouldn't convert, so they had a plan b: killing everybody.
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I think the Wyrm gave his work of 3 months so he was obeyed by his follower, who was there to carry out the inevietable when Hrathen failed.
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hmm... maybe the 3 months were to gather reinforcements and recruit some more citezens, then to be transformed into soldiers to kill everyone else...
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I agree with the happy dude.
Is it Wyrn or Wyrm?
I think Dilaf and his guys are pretty sick.
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Now that i think about it, i agree with the happyman too.
Being happy is good. ;D
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It is. Best medicine of all, I think. Besides Advil. Advil is cool.
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Happyman's thoughts make sense. Thanks for helping me figure that out cause man it was bugging me.
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No problem. (I know you're talkin about the happy dude, but I agreed with him so I'm taking credit. ;D) Just kidding. Good thoughts, happyman.
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Well, giving two options helps.
Personally, I actually lean towards the idea that Hrathen was a decoy. It's what Dilaf says, and it makes sense. But I'm not too attached to the idea.
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Just puttin this out there–Dilaf might've taken one too many hits on his freaky little head. I don't know if he was on somethin major, or the Dakhor place made him a nut, but he seemed a little whacky to me.
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Just puttin this out there–Dilaf might've taken one too many hits on his freaky little head. I don't know if he was on somethin major, or the Dakhor place made him a nut, but he seemed a little whacky to me.
This means Brandon wrote his character well, and you read it correctly. He was crazy, no question about it. The thing is, though, is that he was still largely rational, in some senses of the word. He could plan and execute his plans in a way that made sense. It was mostly just his goals and motivations which defy our understanding. But, with some notable exceptions (Elantris), he seemed to understand the world he lived in just fine. So while we have to take into account his distorted view of the world, on many subjects he can be trusted to at least be partially accurate.
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I guess you're right. But if I had to be in a room with him, I'd stick close to the door and keep one hand on my knife.
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I guess you're right. But if I had to be in a room with him, I'd stick close to the door and keep one hand on my knife.
I would try to look as unthreatening as possible: no knives!! :o
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I'm with Reaves on this one. I personally wouldn't want to mess with him. That is unless I was a fully trained Elantrian of course.
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Reaves–lol I guess you're right. But you could hide your blade up your sleeve or something.
Or if you were a better-trained Dakhor monastery guy I guess you could take him…. That'd be cool–writing a fight between two Dakhor-trained monks. It'd sorta be like two Mistborn fighting with atium. Kind of.
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Ummm, no offense, but that is kind of a bad comparison. If two two mistborn are fighting with Atium, they just see a bunch of atium shadows.
And yes. I know you said kind of
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Yes, but my point is, if two atium-using Mistborn fight each other, all the advantages of atium are negated. SImilar with Dakhor guys.
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Ohh... I see. But then what's the point? They would just be ordinary people fighting, wouldn't they?
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Ohh... I see. But then what's the point? They would just be ordinary people fighting, wouldn't they?
Well, either set could inflict a lot of collateral damage in the process.
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But the original point of the discussion was that most people would stay away from Dakhor monks. But what I was saying was that if you wanted to take out a Dakhor monk, it would be best to use another Dakhor monk. You see?
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kind of, but still, if their power is evenly matched, wouldn't they either: A, both die; or B, nether die?
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Not necessarily. Two men who receive the same training can turn out to be very different [soldiers]. You have to consider natural ability, how much attention oen payed, strength/speed before training, stuff like that. And intelligence. Never forget intelligence.
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And circumstances. A lot of random things can happen through the course of a fight that could give one person the advantage they needed to win.
If I were trying to take out a Dakhor monk, I'd use a time-traveling mistborn. ;D Or Hoid.....
This is probably as good a place as any to make this statement, so here goes.
For those of you who don't know me, I am Andrew the Great. I posted on this forum quite a bit before HoA came out, mostly in the crazy theorizing department. However, I got to the point where I was just tired of theorizing, and by association, of TWG. As such, I took a 2 month break after the release of Hero of Ages (almost exactly, My last post is like a week after HoA came out). However, this break was never intended to be permanent, and I have now repented of my evil inactivity and have decided to come back online to TWG. So, here I am, and I guess that explains just about everything. Except for the fact that Chaos, Green, and Reaves now all outrank me. By a lot. When I left, Chaos was 1 level above me and Reaves and Green were both several levels beneath me. Oh well.
Oh, and those of you who don't know me, I'm notorious for making extremely long and (occasionally) rather tedious posts. So there. Happy to be back!
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Good to have you back, Andrew! We've missed you ;)
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Welcome back, Andrew!
Except for the fact that Chaos, Green, and Reaves now all outrank me. By a lot. When I left, Chaos was 1 level above me and Reaves and Green were both several levels beneath me. Oh well.
If it's any comfort to you, from my perspective most of Green's multitudinous posts in the last couple months have been very close to spam - he and a bunch of other people went crazy on the titles thread and other places. It's not like the majority of his 1000+ posts have been in-depth HoA theorizing. Not that I object, I'm just saying rank doesn't mean everything.
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Is it just a coincidence that you say you're posted a lot in the 'crazy theorizing department' before, and your title is what it is (don't remember exactly).
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Sarah makes a very good point. I was one of those that "went crazy" so I know....Although, most of that craziness was on the titles thread, and a good majority of it was on topic, so I don't think it can really be considered spamming....But I do think 70 posts in one day is extreme (that was how many I hit....I had no life that Thursday afternoon-evening, apparently).
Anyway. She's right. Rank doesn't mean anything, although it is pretty cool to see that number go up and the title change, for better or for worse (generally for worse).
And yes, Shaggy, that's just coincidence. He leveled after he came back....But it is quite funny. Theoretically....
And I'm off-topic. To go on-topic, I have no thoughts on Elantris. Because I haven't finished it. I need to find my copy of it to do that (I let my dad read it after I bought it since I couldn't afford to get distracted from school, hence why I have yet to read it...).
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It is, isn't it?
I found the whole mystery surrounding the Dakhor monastery pretty awesome (until the end, obviously). There are certain things that when I read them, I'm just struck with this feeling of how supernaturally awesome it is…I don't know how to explain it I'm not doing it justice AT ALL…help??
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Yeah, I actually wasn't a matter of theoretical magic yet when I posted that.
As for Elantris, I just re-read it (kind of - more of a skim read, really) and was thinking that Dakhor is pretty awesome, but Elantrians are just awesome-er. So there.
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But to me, the thing that, in my mind, makes the Dakhor monks cooler than the Elantrians is that the Elantrians use magic. To me, at least, magic is a mere concept. I don't want to get into a theology argument here, but technically, magic doesn't exist in our world (because if you think about it, magic defies almost all the basic scientific laws of our world). So they have something that's intangible to me. But what makes the Dakhor guys so Dakhor-ish (?) is that they have all the characteristics/qualities that we have (strength, speed, bone strength), only more powerful/better/stronger. So they're more superhuman to me than the Elantrians, who I consider rather inhuman.
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Yeah, but superhuman in a way I really wouldn`t want to be. Bones all broken and rearranged, body quite deformed and extremely insensitive - I wonder if they can actually feel a touch that`s softer than whacking a sword across their back? Plus that total obedience to their superiors, which was what made Hrathen leave. The way the Dakhor monks have been portrayed - with the exception of Dilaf - reminds me more of machines than of humans. I don`t have Elantris here to check, but don`t remember any of them ever saying as much as one word.
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Yeah, but superhuman in a way I really wouldn`t want to be. Bones all broken and rearranged, body quite deformed and extremely insensitive - I wonder if they can actually feel a touch that`s softer than whacking a sword across their back?
No one even noticed until Dilaf took his shirt off or whatever, so you could hide that.
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I'm thinking that the reason Dilaf spent all the time trying to undermime Hrathen's authority was because he wanted the challenge of turning the people against Elantris. We've already decided that he was mostly sane, at least in how he percieved the world.
About the whole Elantrian fighting Dilaf thing, the only thing AonDor would be good for would be getting away from him because, as Raoden found out in Teod, he's immune to AonDor attacks.
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About the whole Elantrian fighting Dilaf thing, the only thing AonDor would be good for would be getting away from him because, as Raoden found out in Teod, he's immune to AonDor attacks.
And, because of the Dakhor's increased bone strength, normal weapons would be nearly useless also, which is why everyone thinks they are so awesome.
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Well AonDor wouldn't be TOTALLY useless…couldn't you like pick up a boulder and drop it on him or something? A building, maybe?
Wait a second–when did we decide Dilaf was sane??
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Well AonDor wouldn't be TOTALLY useless…couldn't you like pick up a boulder and drop it on him or something? A building, maybe?
Wait a second–when did we decide Dilaf was sane??
Interesting point. I was going to say it was kind of like Matt's medallion in WoT, but I remembered that Dilaf also managed to disrupt Raoden's illusion at will, so clearly his ability is somewhat more targeted than Matt's. If you caught him off guard somehow, though, I suspect that AonDor could indeed indirectly kill him. Probably the only thing that could.
For the record, I'm pretty certain that Dilaf wasn't sane, not completely. He was, however, rational, given his view of the world. Those aren't quite the same thing.
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I said mostly sane, and mostly is anything more than half.
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If someone is, say, 30 percent insane, I'd still stick clear of them.
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Really, though, Dilaf was only insane when Elantris was in the picture (whether that be an Elantrian or the city itself).
As for the OP. I think Dilaf was making sure that Hrathen stuck with what Dilaf wanted Hrathen to be. That sounds somewhat confusing though. Since it's in Hrathen's POV, we don't know why exactly Dilaf did the things he did, but I'm guessing it was to manipulate Hrathen into being a good decoy/distraction, which is what Dilaf says Hrathen was:
Elantris[/i], pg 568 (US Paperback)]
"You were a distraction, something for people like Eventeo to focus their attention on while I prepared for the city's invasion. You did your job perfectly."
I don't think Dilaf was insane here. I think he knew exactly what the plan was and he explained to Hrathen, even if he didn't explain his actions. I'm thinking a fair bit of those actions were manipulations, though. Dilaf knew Hrathen from when Hrathen was younger, and he had manipulated him then in getting the boy to leave Dakhor. It wouldn't surprise me if Dilaf's main strategy was still manipulation.
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I loved the Elantris book. I wish there was more to the story. Maybe in the future Brandon will come back to this world and expand upon it.
I think an Elantarian that could think fast would be more then a match for a Dakhor monk. As long as they are close enough to Elantris to not lose there power. I mean if they can turn garbage into corn can't they turn there environment into something more sinister. Like making a pool of acid or lava under the monk. I think the major drawback is the time it will take them to draw something in the air. Also if you learn the symbols you can read what attack is coming because there is no way to really hide it.
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I loved the Elantris book. I wish there was more to the story. Maybe in the future Brandon will come back to this world and expand upon it.
I wholeheartedly disagree. I think the story is complete as it is, and further pieces in that world would run the risk of ruining that completeness, and disrupting the atmosphere of the book. I think the fact that Elantris is only one book is rather beautiful in of itself, considering how well-satisfied the story left me feeling.
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I loved the book too, and sure, it's a complete story, but I'd still like to see more....And anyway, Brandon's already kind of said he'll come back to Scyla (isn't that the world's name?) and Elantris sometime.
http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6148.msg129376#msg129376
It's at the bottom of the post....(and I'm such a nerd, I've got that link saved, along with that post, and a bunch of others that I found on here from a long time ago....oh well...A BS nerd is much better than the normal kind of nerd....maybe :P)
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Haha definitely.
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I don't really need the same characters back. I just want more based in that world. I really loved the magic system in this book, even though we did not get to see much of it due to it not working through most of the book. I find that Brandon has alot of interesting magic systems though and like the change in pace from the traditional ones that exist in other fantasy books.
I think he did leave openings for the same characters to make a return in future books though and would not be upset if they showed up. ;)
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Exactly. I'd like to see more of the magic systems. And apparently, it's very probable that we'll get more of Dakhor....
http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=4890.0
That's probably the thread that I should've linked to before, but alas, it wasn't saved in that file....Now it will be...(I'm so lame...)
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How is he going to have any time??!! He's got two books in the Warbreaker world coming. He's planning to write two more Mistborn TRILOGIES. He's got the WOT. He's got that 10 book series he wants to write: Way of Kings. He's got Alcatraz. Also wasn't he thinking of making Scribbler publishable?
There must be at least three of him. Thats right, ladies and gentlemen; Brandon has cloned himself. Why he hasn't ditched this writing crap and started making millions I'll never know.
"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes
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Wait. Two more books in the Warbreaker world, or two counting Warbreaker...So Warbreaker and Nightblood.....I loved Warbreaker so I'll be ecstatic if it's the first....
And Brandon clones! Now he can be even more prolific!
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I meant counting warbreaker.
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I don't really need the same characters back. I just want more based in that world. I really loved the magic system in this book, even though we did not get to see much of it due to it not working through most of the book.
I agree. The magic system is so ingenious.…
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I had read that he had another book planned for the world a while back. It just slipped my mind. The same article had the list of what he had planned to write. His plans are very extensive. I know his next project is Way of Kings after AMoL, but he did state that he was going to release other books during the time he is writing Way of Kings. Hopefully one of these will be he sequel to Elantris. I would definitely like to read more about the Dakhor. From reading Elantris I figure that just about anything is possible with AonDor if you can figure out how to write it. But we don't have a whole lot of information on what the Dakhor are really capable of.
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Honestly, my first thought was (and I finished the book like right after it came out and didn't know much about Brandon yet) 'Where is the book about Hrathen and his past?' Ha ha.
I totally loved him, his character, and I was totally intrigued and wanted to know more about his religion and theology. I really wanted a book about someone from his world being a hero and destroying some 'hero' infidel. xD
((WAY OFF TOPIC: Guess who's back! :D))
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MIYABI!!! welcome back!!
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Blast. He's back....My goal has been ruined. (My goal was to pass up Miyabi and therefore regain the mystery that is the next title....Sad day :'()
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LOL. SORRY! The title is MINE BUAHAHA.
However, we are now off topic.