New Comic Company on the Block

[Skar]

I ran a magazine called the Serial Killer. I live in an environment where serial killers are real. Would you assume simply from the title of my magazine that I endorse such a thing? Would you even seriously suspect it?

If we lived in a culture where there was a huge underground following of serial killers and where serial killers had ideological goals which they attempted to accomplish through organized activity and active, winked at, recruitment, yes I would suspect it and check it out for myself.  

If you honestly think that, in this reality, a magazine entitled Serial Killer and a comic company called KKK Comics are essentially the same, it's pretty obvious there's nothing I can say that will convince you otherwise.

In Finland, where every single person I met, with no exceptions, spoke flawless English, there's a chain of stores called KKK Mart. Not for a moment will I assume that means they're racist.

I didn't say a company called KKK Comics in Finland.  I was talking about in America.  The cultures are different.  Finland does not have in its history a racist organization that called itself the KKK.  In America we do.  That's the difference.

If a company called AK Comics were to start up in America  I wouldn't bat an eye, because we do not have the Cult of the AK47 in America.  Ookla didn't even know what an AK is.  They do have it in Cairo and the rest of the Middle East

There are a ton of comics that included titles like "true crime" and "murder" and things like that, yet one of the greatest blows against free speech in this county was the assumption that such titles instantly meant that the comics were supporting criminal behavior

The same reasoning from above about the Serial Killer mag applies here.  I assume the blow to free speech you speak of came about because people attempted to censor the "True Crime" magazines.  You'll notice that I never said anything about censoring AK Comics.  That's one of the great things about our country, as long as no one is actually hurt in the making of propoganda or any kind of literature there's no reason to censor it. We're big kids we can make our own determinations.  But if we don't keep in mind every facet of the world, including cultural differences we'll get fooled and make bad decisions.

I point out the women leads and the pagan power NOT because they are forbidden, but because they directly subvert the order they want to impose. if Zein (one of their characters) got his power because he's a direct descendant of Muhammad, that's one thing. But he gets his power from ancient Egyptian gods. These sorts of things are diametrically opposed to what they're bringing about. Maybe they can sin, but why would they use something that so blantantly argues against their Jihad? That's ridiculous.

SE, nearly everything Islamic terrorists do argues against their Jihad.  Murdering innocents, raping women and little boys, and preaching mindless hate has nothing to do with Islam, but they do all those things.  Bringing about Islamic rule is just a means to an end and the end has nothing to do with Islam or Sharia.  Those are just convenient handles the terrorist leaders and their behind the scenes backers use to get and keep power.
Claiming that a Mullah who has no problem with murdering women and children would have any hesitation about using Comics to recruit/propogandize is ridiculous.

And I say again, I don't think AK Comics is a terrorist front.  If they were it's not likely that they would bother to bring English Language translations to the U.S.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

so on the one hand they're obvious and loyal to their statement, and on the other hand you can't predict them because they'll go against their principles. Yup. Ok.

so... now you don't agree with what you said before then? "I wouldn't be surprised if the comics turned out to be propoganda tools designed to produce more recruits for the Radical Islamic snuff-terrorists." but now you find that "unlikely." My assumption then, which is what i thought before but didn't have any evidence so I held myself in check, knowing I didn't have grounds for it, is that you made that statement before you looked at the comic itself. THAT is the kind of prejudice I'm talking about.

Your interpretation of islamic terrorism is a very western one. We assume that because in the west, and even parts of the near east like Turkey, they interpret Islam like we do Christianity and Judaism (i mean, come on, how many times do the Book of Mormon and especially the Bible authorize, even command the killing of other peole) that none of the extremists actually believe what they preach.

I think that people like Osama bin Ladin actually believe they are doing the righteous thing. That God WANTS them to do this stuff. It's a really messed up world view, but it's a sincere one. If it was just an excuse to do violent and depraved acts, they would be deterred. They ARE religious, at least many of them are. They are trying to accomplish something, even if that goal is nebulous or unreachable. To be clear, I think they're wrong and scary, but I think that Christians who bomb abortion clinics are wrong and scary too, but I don't doubt their sincerity in their belief.

[Skar]

so on the one hand they're obvious and loyal to their statement, and on the other hand you can't predict them because they'll go against their principles. Yup. Ok.

Huh?  You lost me.  What are you referring to?

so... now you don't agree with what you said before then? "I wouldn't be surprised if the comics turned out to be propoganda tools designed to produce more recruits for the Radical Islamic snuff-terrorists." but now you find that "unlikely." My assumption then, which is what i thought before but didn't have any evidence so I held myself in check, knowing I didn't have grounds for it, is that you made that statement before you looked at the comic itself. THAT is the kind of prejudice I'm talking about.

You add nothing to the discussion by partially quoting me.  Had you looked on the next page you would have noticed the post where I said:

However, looking at it further, the item that leads me to think that it may be a legitimate comic company, (and by legitimate I mean having generally the same goals as Western comic companies) is that they're marketing to the U.S. in English.  Most of the wahabiist propoganda that makes its way into mosques in America (and their's quite a bit) is in Arabic and therefore, pretty universally inaccessible to non-muslims.

So yeah, I say again, it does not look to me like AK Comics is a terrorist front.  The fact that I had not yet clicked the link to look at the comic is what prompted me to put my first post in totally speculative terms.  If I had said, "It's obvious" or "they are" or "they're probably" a terrorist front you'd have a point.  I didn't.  I speculated in a very open ended manner.  And then once I had looked at the site I came back to find your reply and drew an actual conclusion.  That they are not.

Your interpretation of islamic terrorism is a very western one. We assume that because in the west, and even parts of the near east like Turkey, they interpret Islam like we do Christianity and Judaism (i mean, come on, how many times do the Book of Mormon and especially the Bible authorize, even command the killing of other peole) that none of the extremists actually believe what they preach.

So I have lost my claim to rational though because I'm a westerner?  Racist.

I think that people like Osama bin Ladin actually believe they are doing the righteous thing. That God WANTS them to do this stuff. It's a really messed up world view, but it's a sincere one. If it was just an excuse to do violent and depraved acts, they would be deterred. They ARE religious, at least many of them are. They are trying to accomplish something, even if that goal is nebulous or unreachable. To be clear, I think they're wrong and scary, but I think that Christians who bomb abortion clinics are wrong and scary too, but I don't doubt their sincerity in their belief.

As for their being sincere in the Middle East.  Fine, they are sincere in their desire to put themselves in absolute power over their fellows and sincere in their belief that Allah wants them to use Islam as a tool to do so.  They are also sincere in their belief that it's OK to murder, rape and torture to accomplish what God wants them to.  I'm not arguing that with you, though I disagree.  The same permissive God that lets them murder, rape and torture would not bat an eye if they used Comics in the same cause.

This whole discussion started because you said you disagreed with my speculation because the Comics went against Islamic law(women leads, scantily clad women and pagan magic).  That means nothing to the Islamic terrorists who are willing to murder, rape, and torture in the same cause.

Did you want to pursue any of your other points that I've countered or just stick with partially quoting me?

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Okay...umm...I know what an AK-47 is, but I've never heard it mentioned without the "47." Do they commonly refer to them without the 47?

My roommate, whose initials are AK, uses the name AK of Troy on the internet (he went to USC), so when I hear "AK" I think of him, even though I knew about AK-47s long before I met him.

[Archon]

I know that I commonly cut down the designation of AK47 down to just AK, since it is so common that it is usually understood that that is the gun that you are talking about. Just for a little bit of background, in case you didn't know and were interested, there is also the AKM, which is a machine gun similar to the AK47, and there is also now the AK74, which is a more modernized version. There are several other models that the Russians made based on the AK design, and so many ripoffs that they are uncountable.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

actually, Skar, I did not take that quote out of context in any way. That is what you said, AND what you meant at the time. Before you made any statement about them being a possible terrorist front on the basis of two letters, you should have looked at what they did. That was hardly a partial quote. My problem is not that you may or may not think they're a terrorist front. My problem is that you made that judgement before you looked into it at all.

And no, I didn't say you lost claim on rational thought because you're a westerner, although your arguments almost always, in any discussion, take the stance that no one can possibly be reasonable or intelligent or informed if they in any way disagree with you, and that sort of attitude is offensive. You've done it in this discussion. Your first assumption in the conversation about me is that I was acting from a completely ignorant point of view.

And your last post hardly counters anything. If they're sincere in their beliefs, encouraging behavior that destroys that belief is not on their agenda. That makes a difference in the types of things they'll do. Rape, murder, etc are fine given the context of their situation (from their pov). Encouraging belief in a power they don't worship is not. Encouraging the empowerment of women is not. Thus those activities wouldn't be encouraged. I find it likely that they wouldn't use such western style comic books in their propaganda as well, representing as it does such an American influence, but I can see how they could get around that bit at least.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

ok, guys. I've been thinking about this convo. Far too much. I'm sorry to everyone, (ie, Skar and anyone else who is bothered by my fractious attitude).  I shouldn't have made this a big fight. I'm on my meds, so I don't know what's up. I stand by my morals, but I have made far too big a deal out of what I interpretted Skar as saying. So I will shut my big fat ugly mouth now about it.

[Skar]

actually, Skar, I did not take that quote out of context in any way. That is what you said, AND what you meant at the time. Before you made any statement about them being a possible terrorist front on the basis of two letters, you should have looked at what they did. That was hardly a partial quote. My problem is not that you may or may not think they're a terrorist front. My problem is that you made that judgement before you looked into it at all.

I didn't say you took it out of context I said you partially quoted me.  The fact that I made the very point you tried to force on me, in my very next post, is rather significant.  

And, AGAIN, I made no judgement.  I speculated in just about the most open-ended manner possible.  If you object to my speculating that perhaps a comic company named AK Comics published in the middle east might have something to do with the cult of the AK then explain to me how it's unreasonable.  I gave you that opportunity when I pointed out that if an American comic company were to name itself KKK Comics it would not be unreasonable to speculate that they might have something to do with the the actual KKK.  Yet you responded to that point with some irrelevancies about Finland and Serial Killers, and then never responded to my reply.

And no, I didn't say you lost claim on rational thought because you're a westerner, although your arguments almost always, in any discussion, take the stance that no one can possibly be reasonable or intelligent or informed if they in any way disagree with you, and that sort of attitude is offensive. You've done it in this discussion. Your first assumption in the conversation about me is that I was acting from a completely ignorant point of view.

Funny, the same has been said about you, both by people on this forum and by just about every acquaintance we had in common when we were at BYU... you dirty pot.

So, if you knew what the cult of the AK was before I brought it up, again, explain why it is unreasonable to speculate that AK Comics out of Cairo might have something to do with it.  And if you know how business and financing works in the middle east explain how a western style comic which is not a tool of the cult of the AK gains acceptance from the mullahs and avoids being firebombed by the extremists.

And your last post hardly counters anything. If they're sincere in their beliefs, encouraging behavior that destroys that belief is not on their agenda. That makes a difference in the types of things they'll do. Rape, murder, etc are fine given the context of their situation (from their pov). Encouraging belief in a power they don't worship is not. Encouraging the empowerment of women is not. Thus those activities wouldn't be encouraged. I find it likely that they wouldn't use such western style comic books in their propaganda as well, representing as it does such an American influence, but I can see how they could get around that bit at least.

If Rape, murder, etc... are fine given the context of their situation, from their POV,(ie. doesn't destroy their beliefs) then using "forbidden" things (glamorous power from pagan middle-eastern sources, empowered women, and sexy images) to propagandize young kids is a drop in the bucket.  In order for your point to be correct they'd have to be feircely moral people who have a problem with enticing young kids with sex but then don't have a problem with raping women and little boys.  Your scenario is not reasonable.  From my experience surveilling, chasing, fighting, and interrogating the very people you are talking about I can tell you with authority, they are not fiercely moral people who just happen to have cognitive dissonance.  Islam is a convenient lever, that's it.  Of course, you have a history of ignoring actual real world experience in favor of  second-hand scholarship that agrees with your preconceptions so I don't know why I bring this up. (http://www.timewastersguide.com/boards/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=movies;action=display;num=1087831288;start=70)

The central issue here is you said I made you "ill" because I saw a possible connection between AK Comics out of Cairo and the cult of the AK.  You have yet to explain why that is unreasonable.  It seems to me that telling someone they make you ill because they expressed a thought on a board which, up until then anyway, they thought of as a friendly environment is what's unreasonable.

Edit(after seeing SE's OK Guys... post):'nuff said... I shall post no more.