Angst & Frustrations Galore

[Gemm: Rock & Roll Star; Born to Rock]

"Its only a zillioneth of a lifetime"

That's my favorite line.

But to ring in, I've tried my had at long distant relationships. Went alright for a while, then just sort of tettered off. My last relationship I had, which started off rather well, and ended with a big upside triple spin rotating dive into a pool of uncooked jello. Even now that I think about it I still miss her. She totally shouldn't have gotten rid of me like that.... Yeah... well good luck.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

I took this to be saying that, whether or not you agreed with his opinion, you still had to agree that people shouldnt be allowed to date until they are 16. If I am wrong, I withdraw with my apologies Ookla. Am I?

No, you're not wrong. That's exactly what I meant when I said that.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

archon, I think you still misunderstand me. I'm not saying never disagree with your parents. But just because parents make a bad decision, or even a number of bad decisions, that doesn't make them worthy of contempt. I also never said that anger was inherently bad. Though I think, esp for people who get angry often, that it is usually much more damaging than the angry person thinks it is. However, that contempt, that disrespect, with few exceptions, IS damaging. I think you're wrong about a number of things (including that a parent separated from his/her partner would think of it as the child's responsibility to reuinited, which I find more amusing than anywhere close to correct).

I also didn't say that parents are justified in forcing a child to miss a beautiful experience because a better one is waiting. I said that because parents have seen even better things, it's hard for them to remember how important the more fundamental, less powerful relationships are to people who haven't experienced the greater relationships. It's not right, but it IS human and it IS understandable. It's forgiveable, and that a sin is forgiveable doesn't make it right, just less worthy of the belief that the sinner is out of their gourd or completely unreliable.

Now, if we're talking about a 14 year old girl, that's too young for an exclusive relationship. I've never seen anything good come out of it. IF she's 16, that's a little better, but still not old enough in my mind. I don't think parents should automatically cut off their adolescent children's relationships. However, if it's going to take significant commitment and resources to get two children at that age together, than I don't think it is reasonable to expect that the parents should try to make it happen. Very sad things happen. THey'll happen for the rest of your life. Get used to it. Don't like them, but accept that it happens.

Teens, I believe are to the point where they can understand at the same level as adults. They havent had all of the experiences yet, but they are intellectually capable of knowing how they feel, and they are capable (if they don't always take advantage) of logically making their own decisions.

In some ways I find this quote amusing. In other ways I completely agree with it. Sure they're capable of making their own decisions. I think that by 8 years old that most people are capable of making a great many of their own decisions and taking responsibility for most of their actions. And beyond that, adults out of adolecents don't always take advantage of logically making their own decisions. But that experience is the key. Though you've been told something, if you don't have the experience backing up what you're being told, you don't often follow up on what you even believe is true, because subconsciously, it's the experience that brings it home. Even though you rationally understand something and will even admit it, unless you experience something, you don't emotionally understand it, and you act on what seems bigger. That is, you act on what you experience rather than what you know. Again, adults do this too, but adolescents are more prone to it. And most adolescents think that their great love is what they currently feel, not realizing that greater things are still to come. Maybe even with the person they're with at that moment, but they haven't had it yet.

I'm sure that last paragraph makes little sense. I'm too tired to revise it though and have a big headache. If any of it sounds remotely interesting, ask me to clarify.

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

If you ask them to imagine how they would feel in that situation, I do not see how that is rude or offensive.

That is not what you said.  You said to TELL them to GO AWAY.  This is a rude statement.  Also, asking them how they would feel probably isn't giving them any new information.  More than likely they KNOW what they are putting the kids through and, for a number of reasons (somne in and some out of their control), will not take them to see eachother.

Your first sentence here does not make sense at all.

You misinterpreted my meaning.  Probably because I wasn't very clear.  What I meant was that if the kid hadn't committed suicide, the relationship wouldn't have been that important.  The outcome makes the relationship important only because the kid over-reacted.

Gorgon, realize that if people decided not to get offended or indignant or sick and tired of things, then bad things would never change.

First off - I never said that there wasn't a time and a place for being indignant and offended.  In fact, I said there was a place for that - I just said this isn't it.

Secondly, you don't need to be indignant to show somebody that you want something done.  People are perfectly capable of civil disobediance that leaves little to no emotional scarring.  

Need an example?  India.  They gained their freedom on the basis that they wanted to be Britain's friend when they were free.  No indignance, no offense - they just decided they wanted to be free and used civil disobediance, all the while saying they did not want to hurt Britain's feelings (as it were) because they wanted to be friends afterwards.  And guess who got their independance.  India.

There are times for being insubordinate.  There are times for being nice about getting something done.  And that can get things done, especially in a situation like there, in which the opressors hold all of the power and there's nothing you can do to get some yourself.  

No matter how indignant or rebellious Outkast gets here he will still be subordinate to his parents.  This means that the more indignant and rebellious he gets, the more problems he'll have to deal with in order to achieve his goal.  They have the power to make this happen, he doesn't.  That means that instead of doing ANYTHING tha could upset his parents, he should be trying to make them happy.  And he should be trying to negotiate.  Yeah, that's not fair.  Yeah, I sympathize.  But that's the way it is.

It doesnt really sound like they are listening to their daughter too well to me

Like I said - nobody on this board knows the whole story.  Not even OutKast has the whole story.  So nobody has a right to say whether the parents are or aren't listening to their daughter.  I am going under the assumption that the parents aren't deliberately ruining their kid's life.  I figure it's the most realistic solution, as parents generally love their children and don't like to see them unhappy.

Lastly, you can't decide her priorities like you did. For all you know, she doesn't want to go to college, so she can afford to have priorities other than school.

Again, you misinterpreted me.  I meant the parents probably see that she has other priorities at that age.  And since they are the ones in power, it doesn't really matter what her real priorities are, because they are the ones that get to decide everything, anyway.  It's not just, but that's the way it is.

I can tell you that it is definitely very important though. Even if they aren't doing anything physical.

I know it's important, I was just trying to put a little perspective into the situation.  He should count himself lucky that he is still communicating with her, and since they wont be doing anything physical, he should already have the most stable basis for the relationship as he could possibly get.  Sure, there's a plus to actually seeing a person and hearing their voice, ect.  But as long as you stay in contact, your relationship has the base it would anyway, so you can at least wait a little longer.  Again, I know it's not fair and it doesn't seem right, but there's not much you can apparently do about it.

And it would be unfair to the parents to have to cart the kids cross-country for a day or two of face time that would amount to maybe 12 hours.  Either way, somebody is getting the blunt end, and it shouldn't be expected that the people in control of the situation are going to easily let themselves get screwed over.

If you don't oppose parents somehow when they are unjust, then you might as well think that they are gods, and be absolutely delighted with every decision they make

Yeah.  But I think the point is getting angry and then indignant with your parents isn't going to get you anywhere, even if it seems like they are being unjust.  There is opposing you parents and there is getting angry, losing your head and doing damage.  The same goes with everybody you meet.  There is opposing them and there is overreacting with a hoard of anger.  Even if you are angry, it serves you best (usually) to act like you're not.  The less you make somebody else angry the more likely they will be to let you have what you want.

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

I'm sorry, what?  How is it NOT insensitive for them to not consider the emotions and problems their children are going through, when they have the ability to help them be happier, but do not do so.

Okay - I worded that very poorly.  Very, very poorly.  Let me redo that last part.  Ahem.  It does not make it the parents' responsibility to deal with the kids problem as a priority just because the parents allow the kids to date.  It might not be the most empathetic thing for them to do, but they are running a store and they have their own problems and concerns, the relationship of a fourteen year old girl isn't and shouldn't be their priority.  

I am not saying here, by the way, that the relationship is any less real that somebody else's, nor a, I saying that the parents are right in consitantly putting off what they would say they would do.  But the parents, gasp, have their own lives and problems to attend to, and what seems insignificant to them isn't going to be on the top of their priority list.

[Mistress of Darkness]

Here's my two cents.

There is a problem, and it is (in all likelihood) not being dealt with in the best way.

The first thing one probably wants to do is rant about it, which Xiao has already done. We feel for you man.

The next step is to look at the situation logically and see if there isn't something you could do make the visit happen. Get some money together, call and make arrangements with old friends for a place to stay, someone to pick you up from the airport, etc. and present these plans to your parents. The hope is that they will see how important it is to you, and be impressed by your willingness to make the effort required for the trip to happen.

Still, I beg you, as a new mother, to cut your parents a little indulgance. Parents aren't perfect, I know that, but by and large we are trying to do the best we can. If we (parents and children) cooperate with each other instead of arguing, communication will be much easier.

[Archon]

But just because parents make a bad decision, or even a number of bad decisions, that doesn't make them worthy of contempt.

Look at this like you would if family were a business. If you have a boss or an employee who makes a number of bad decisions, some of them quite large, do you still respect that boss or employee? I wouldn't, because I wouldn't consider them someone that could be relied on.

I said that because parents have seen even better things, it's hard for them to remember how important the more fundamental, less powerful relationships are to people who haven't experienced the greater relationships.

But what really bugs me is that I am sure that their daughter was trying to tell them how important it was to her, and they just weren't listening, because they completely discarded her ideas as immature.

Now, if we're talking about a 14 year old girl, that's too young for an exclusive relationship.

The only difference in being 14 is that she should not be doing anything physical. I absolutely agree with that. But they can be in a relationship, and care for each other like any other couple.

No, you're not wrong. That's exactly what I meant when I said that.

Then, like I said, you can't expect to impose your morals on other people.

I think you're wrong about a number of things (including that a parent separated from his/her partner would think of it as the child's responsibility to reuinited, which I find more amusing than anywhere close to correct).

That isn't exactly what I said, or maybe it was, but it wasn't what I meant. I meant that if the child would not let them see each other unless the child drove them to see each other, then they would consider it the child's responsibility to do so. Since the child won't let them get themselves together, they would see that it is only fair that the child do it for them.

Very sad things happen. THey'll happen for the rest of your life. Get used to it. Don't like them, but accept that it happens.

So, by that same token, if somebody kills someone else, we should dislike it, but we shouldn't punish the killer in any way. Or, if we see somebody starving, we shouldn't give them food or money, we should be sad about it, but we should accept it.

Though you've been told something, if you don't have the experience backing up what you're being told, you don't often follow up on what you even believe is true, because subconsciously, it's the experience that brings it home.

First of all, more experience does not necessarily make for a better decision. Many experiences in life conflict, so when you look back on them, you are just confused, and perhaps misled by an experience that yielded a result that is contrary to what usually happens. I would also like to add that some people do act on what they think is true, regardless of experience. I have never put a fork in a light socket for example, nor have I seen anyone do so. I just know that it isn't a good idea.

Maybe even with the person they're with at that moment, but they haven't had it yet.

So if that were the case, then wouldn't splitting this pair up be depriving them of that feeling that they would later have for each other?

[Archon]

You said to TELL them to GO AWAY. This is a rude statement.

I agree, and I should clarify that that suggestion was just to be humorous and wasn't meant to be carried out any more than Entropy's suggestion.

The outcome makes the relationship important only because the kid over-reacted.

That still doesn't make sense, because you can't prove that the kid did overreact. The relationship WAS that important to him or her. Otherwise he or she wouldn't have done what he or she did. So it was that important to them, it just wasn't seen as that important by everybody else. But who are they to judge when they are not in the kid's place?

Insubordination has it's place.  This is not it.

You said insubordination had it's place, but you never said anything about indignation. Being indignant doesn't mean insubordinate.

Need an example?  India.  They gained their freedom on the basis that they wanted to be Britain's friend when they were free.  No indignance, no offense - they just decided they wanted to be free and used civil disobediance, all the while saying they did not want to hurt Britain's feelings (as it were) because they wanted to be friends afterwards.  And guess who got their independance.  India.

I don't think that you understand what being offended or indignant means. They were still offended or indignant by what the British were doing, otherwise they wouldn't have done anything. They did do something, it just wasn't picking up a gun.

And that can get things done, especially in a situation like there, in which the opressors hold all of the power and there's nothing you can do to get some yourself.

There is a difference between being nice and being respectful. I think you need to be respectful, but not necessarily nice. Therefore, I don't think you should say "You morons, don't you realize that you are being the biggest jerks and liars in the world" but I think you should say "You are not being fair. You are not being honest with me, and you have always told me to be honest with people." I think that the latter is a good idea because, without insulting them, just by stating facts, it has shown her objection, and shown them that they were dealing wrongly with her.

I am going under the assumption that the parents aren't deliberately ruining their kid's life.

But if they aren't, then they don't know how important this is to their child, and therefore, they aren't listening.

and there is getting angry, losing your head and doing damage

I never said anything about the second two.

But the parents, gasp, have their own lives and problems to attend to, and what seems insignificant to them isn't going to be on the top of their priority list.

First of all, they are wrong in considering it insignificant. So that in itself is a mistake. The parents do have their own lives, but they also will not let their daughter go and stay with one of her old girlfriends, which seems perfectly harmless, and would not take up any of their platinum-valued time.

[Oldie Black Witch]

Wow. You guys can even debate about debating.

[Archon]

Oh you have never seen Gorgon and I debate in person before. If it weren't for the need for food, water, and sleep, it would go on until the end of time. Whereupon we would start debating over whether or not it was really the end of time, and whether or not the food would be good in the next life.

[Oldie Black Witch]

Sounds like a good show! Make sure I get an invitation to the End-of-the-World Gorgon-Archon debate, ok?

[Skar]

Me too.  Me too.  I'll bring my pistol for the surprise ending.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

But Archon, families are NOT businesses. Are you going to say that what your father has done is worthless because he's made bad decisions? People are human, and you need to hold yourself to your same standards. You've made mistakes, therefore no one should respect you. Which in turns means that your desires don't have any weight, and so we're back where we started.

I hope you realize what the consequences of your argument are. You're saying that a kid of 14 has the same decision making capacity as a 30 year old. I'm sorry, no, I don't buy it. I think there are reasons that children need longer to be given the right to vote or drink. They lack the power of decision making that older people generally have. And the only real difference between them is experience.

You keep telling Gorgon that he can't prove the girl didn't over react. But that applies to you as well. You're very indignant for this girl, but you can't prove that the parents didn't have excellent reasons for acting like they did. Because of experience, I find it much mroe likely that the parents understood more of what was going on than their daughter did. I thought I knew as much as you do now when I was a teenager. I have since been proven to have lacked a great deal of perspective.

Again, I think you severely underestimate the time and resources required to make sure their daughter can go to a distant town and essentially go unsupervised with a boy. She has clearly made an accusation at a point when her parents were considering helping her with this. She isn't acting as maturely as she could. I don't blame her parents for saying no at that point. She hasn't demonstrated the responsibility and maturity required for them to trust her without them being much closer.

They aren't denying all opportunities for a relationship, they're denying a chance that looks to them, the ones who are mcuh more likely to have a better grasp of the situation, having had more experience and not being directly emotionally involved, like it has a good chance of leading to trouble.

I'm sorry, it sucks to be the one so denied. But I don't find that unfair, unjust, or damaging in anyway at all.

[Archon]

Are you going to say that what your father has done is worthless because he's made bad decisions? People are human, and you need to hold yourself to your same standards. You've made mistakes, therefore no one should respect you. Which in turns means that your desires don't have any weight, and so we're back where we started.  

I said nothing of the sort. I never implied that a a person who made mistakes was worthless. I did say that when a person makes a big mistake, or a large amount of mistakes, especially without recognizing them, then that leaves a mark on their character. It can show that a person is dishonest or hypocritical or greedy or whatever. If they are not a character that you would respect if you met them on the streets, then recognize that you don't respect their character.

You're saying that a kid of 14 has the same decision making capacity as a 30 year old. I'm sorry, no, I don't buy it. I think there are reasons that children need longer to be given the right to vote or drink. They lack the power of decision making that older people generally have. And the only real difference between them is experience.

First of all, I was led to believe that the drinking age was what it was because a part of the brain had not yet fully developed to resist addiction. Second of all, next time you are out on the street, look around you. People are often stupid regardless of age. I would put Gorgon's intelligence and decision-making above the vast majority of 30 year olds. I am confident that he would do a better job making decisions than most. Teens are often stupid too, but I don't think that they are any more so than adults.

but you can't prove that the parents didn't have excellent reasons for acting like they did.

Give me an excellent reason to lie to her, to not even listen to determine how much this means to her, or whether she has a feasible solution, or just listen in general. Conversations work much better when there are two or more people talking and listening. Granted, this does apply to the daughter too. But if they had excellent reasons, then they should have shared them with their daughter. Something other than "because I said so, and I am more mature than you. Nah Nah Nah Nah Nah"

She has clearly made an accusation at a point when her parents were considering helping her with this. She isn't acting as maturely as she could.

No they weren't. If they were, then they would have said something like "Come to us with a plan and we will let you go" or "We have to think about it." No, she isn't acting as maturely as she could, but neither are they.

They aren't denying all opportunities for a relationship, they're denying a chance that looks to them, the ones who are mcuh more likely to have a better grasp of the situation, having had more experience and not being directly emotionally involved, like it has a good chance of leading to trouble.

They are denying AN opportunity. You are right, they do have an outside view. So they have no clue how serious or not serious the relationship is. Now you are trying to say that teens are naturally inferior to older people, and that is a stereotype that I can find plenty of examples to disprove. You have examples too, but you can't assume that because someone is a teen that they are incapable of logical thought.

Sounds like a good show! Make sure I get an invitation to the End-of-the-World Gorgon-Archon debate, ok?

Me too.  Me too.  I'll bring my pistol for the surprise ending.

I will make sure you two get invitations. Skar, I don't know if I would trust you with that pistol when you know that the world is going to end soon anyway. I don't often like surprises, they tend to be worse than what I thought would happen.  

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

see, again with the accusations you can't prove. We have a single third person account of the story. From that account you have concluded that they have lied to her. Are you that positive they have? Because the whole story sounds like something I would have said when I was complaining about what my girlfriends parents have said. If we're going to assume that this girl and Outkast have a mature relationship, then you should give the parents the benefit of a doubt and assume they know what they're doing.

I'm not sure I'd use the word "superior" to describe the relationship of parents to children, but yes. they DO know better. We're speaking in general terms. Of course there are exceptions to it. But that doesn't mean it's not generally true. Teenagers are more likely to act irresponsibly than adults. It's just a fact. It doesn't mean any teenager is automatically less mature than any adult. But if I were a betting man, that's where I'd put my money.

The fact still remains that the parents were talking about whether they should let her go. Which kind of reveals that this was something they were thinking about the entire time. ANd because they told her how they were thinking about it, she gave them a grand display of immaturity. Sorry, I don't think the parents are obligated to do anything for her at that point.

Plus the outside, dispassionate view does NOT mean that they have no clue. They have been through that sort of thing before. Yes, they denied an opportunity. But it is quite absurd that every single opportunity for any experience should be pursued vigorously, encouraged, or even permitted. The parents obviously think this trip is not a good idea. You seriously believe they cannot have a good reason for that?

I think you should give more people the benefit of the doubt before you judge them so.