Angst & Frustrations Galore

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Yeah, archon, you misinterpretted. I'm not saying they WANTEd somethign to be wrong, I 'm saying that they FELT somethign was wrong about it but couldn't articulate it. So when an excuse came up, they responded. My language probably indicated another interpretation, but that's more along what I meant.

although I think everyone here has admitted that, no matter what the rightness of the final decision, they went about it a very wrong way.

Two more comments. It's not unfairfor ookla to say what he did. It's just fine for him to express his opinion. Especially when he starts out by SAYING it's his opinion.

Your final statement is a bit absurd and extreme. There are lightyears of difference between two sorta dating 14 year olds and two married adults. Keep in mind that we also only have one side of Outkast's conversations. I'm thinknig if they come from her parents we're getting, at best, a third hand story on how it happened. I'd need a lot mroe context and reliability before I say those quotes are inappropriate.

I know you'll resent hearing this, but being around twice your age, those high school relationships mean very very little in comparison to a marriage. They may grow into something that meaningful, and they certainly mean a lot to you right now. No one should deny that, but it's really hard to remember how important they are to YOU now when the adult saying them has been through things that are much more significant overall.

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

Alright, first of all, I agree with Ookla.  The point of dating is to find somebody to be married to later in life, or at least have some sort of communion with, some instance of divine fellowship.  If you aren't looking for that in your future, and near future, what's the point of dating?  This brings up the question, is this fourteen-year-old girl looking to be married within the next few years?  Probably not.  So, right off the back it seems to me that you two shouldn't even be dating, friendship should be enough.  But, of course, that is your choice, not mine, but that is my opinion on the subject.

Secondly, do you EXPECT a parent to let their child sleep at somebody's house of the opposite gender, especially in their teens?  And alone?  Parents don't like letting their fully grown children have co-ed dorms.  A child of fourteen certainly shouldn't have the right to stay at a boyfriend's house, no matter HOW mature they are.  Becca probably should have seen this before she accused them of something, which will never really solve a problem, as her parents are in power whether or not she likes it.  It doesn't seem like a very mature, or intelligent, choice on her part.  If she was serious about meeting you, she would have done her best to comprimise, as making her parents angry could have had a long term effect on you two seeing eachother at all.

Though, the parents aren't being very fair here in promising to let you guys see eachother and not.  But, things come up, and you have to accept that.  I'm not saying the parents aren't at fault, I'm just saying that they are in power and don't have to deal with what you think their faults are either way.

then you can sneer at your peers from your vantage point of early maturity.

Haha.  Mmm, yes, because sneering at people is how you are mature.  

Also, I don't get this. No sympathy at all. Xaio, you and Beca, you should both tell your parents to go live far away from each other, and tell them that they can't see each other for at least 4 months, and, whenever they protest, tell them that it was because they were being immature, and they should "Stop being so selfish" Or, tell them to imagine how they would feel in that position.

Insubordination has it's place.  This is not it.  Again, any serious effort to see your girlfriend should come from negotiation and respect, that will raise you chances.  Making you parents angry will not only hinder, but could destroy, any chance of you two seeing eachother.  What more would you parents need to assume you two are 'bad influences' on eachother than a rebellious spirit?

[Entsuropi]

I take great delight out of the suggestion I make in the next paragraph, especially since I made it, not SE. Oh, and don't follow up on it - or if you do, don't blame me for the results.

Shakespearean play's have examples of possible solutions, Xaio. Ropes - more useful than any other piece of equipment.

[Archon]

I'm not saying they WANTEd somethign to be wrong, I 'm saying that they FELT somethign was wrong about it but couldn't articulate it. So when an excuse came up, they responded.

So they were looking for something to be wrong. So when they had an excuse as you phrased it, they took that to be good enough. I still think the concept remains the same.

But whether you believe that or not there should be absolutely no dating until you're 16.

I took this to be saying that, whether or not you agreed with his opinion, you still had to agree that people shouldnt be allowed to date until they are 16. If I am wrong, I withdraw with my apologies Ookla. Am I?

Your final statement is a bit absurd and extreme. There are lightyears of difference between two sorta dating 14 year olds and two married adults. Keep in mind that we also only have one side of Outkast's conversations. I'm thinknig if they come from her parents we're getting, at best, a third hand story on how it happened. I'd need a lot mroe context and reliability before I say those quotes are inappropriate.  

First of all, I know it is easy to get the confused when they have the same avatar, but it is Master Xaio
I agree that we are only getting one side of the story, and we can't totally judge on it. But, you can't know how people feel about one another. That means that I don't know how he feels either. Neither one of us can say that he wouldn't have an equally strong reaction to being separated from this girl.

I know you'll resent hearing this, but being around twice your age, those high school relationships mean very very little in comparison to a marriage. They may grow into something that meaningful, and they certainly mean a lot to you right now. No one should deny that, but it's really hard to remember how important they are to YOU now when the adult saying them has been through things that are much more significant overall.

Define significant. Many teens have killed themselves over rejection in relationships that were only "high school relationships." That is very significant. Some teens get married when they are teens, and it ends up being a great marriage. It is still a high school relationship, but it is also very significant. Don't discard the idea that high school relationships can be significant.
Some high school relationships mean almost nothing, but dont rule out that there might be significant ones as well. I don't resent you saying that, by the way, as long as you don't talk down to me. I do not think that my age means that I and my opinions should be seen as having less worth. I don't think that you implied that, so I don't resent it at all.

Secondly, do you EXPECT a parent to let their child sleep at somebody's house of the opposite gender, especially in their teens?

I don't. But I agree with EUOL.

Insubordination has it's place.  This is not it.  Again, any serious effort to see your girlfriend should come from negotiation and respect, that will raise you chances.  Making you parents angry will not only hinder, but could destroy, any chance of you two seeing eachother.  What more would you parents need to assume you two are 'bad influences' on eachother than a rebellious spirit?

I do not think that this is insubordination. I meant this to be done respectfully, to show the parents the position that they are imposing on the son and daughter.

Though, the parents aren't being very fair here in promising to let you guys see eachother and not.  But, things come up, and you have to accept that.  I'm not saying the parents aren't at fault, I'm just saying that they are in power and don't have to deal with what you think their faults are either way.

There is a line. They have most likely taught their daughter that she should be honest. They are obviously not being so. Therefore, it is not out of line for her to tell them that they are being dishonest. Especially if they are being self righteous about their integrity.

[Mistress of Darkness]

I think EUOL is right, and I will express my sympathy for your plight Xiao. I remember what it was like being fourteen. Everyday those days are farther behind me, and to be honest, I'd rather be where I am now. I'm sure you feel the same way about being four.

But I also would like to point out that if you post something in the Rants board, there is the possibility that other people are going to take what you said and rant or expound on it in their own way. It happens to me all the time.

Yeah, I guess I'm still bitter, but I'm working on it.

[Lieutenant Kije]

I'm not saying anyone was right or wrong...just thought I'd add a little context.  I think parenting is one of the most difficult things a person or persons can undertake.

[Mistress of Darkness]

I'll second that.

[House of Mustard]

First, I think that this issue should have never come up because people that age shouldn't be dating at all.

However, too many things are being passed off as insignificant.  Life events grow in significance over the course of seventy or eighty years -- a high school (or junior high) romance may seem insignificant to a married person.  But, at the same time, finals in college or conflicts with in-laws, or getting that first job, or any other issues that twenty-somethings and thirty-somethings face are probably insignificant to a 70 year old.  

People look back at things they conquered, and imagine it was easy.

Xiao, I feel for you.  I think it never should have happened to begin with, but I still feel for you.  Try to be more patient with her parents (because frankly, being impatient and upset ain't getting you anywhere), and you might find that things get better.

[Skar]

Two things.

-I don't think the root cause behind her parent's behavior is meanness or even dishonesty.  It's just plain laziness.  They don't want to put themselves out as much as taking her back to see him would require.

-And I'm sure that they don't see it as important enough to make the effort because they have forgotten how immediate and important such things felt when they were 14.  Telling Xiao that ten years from now this situation will seem wholly insignificant to him has no impact whatsoever on how he feels today.

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

There is a line. They have most likely taught their daughter that she should be honest. They are obviously not being so. Therefore, it is not out of line for her to tell them that they are being dishonest. Especially if they are being self righteous about their integrity.

I never said that being dishonest is okay, and being a hypocrite is okay.  But it is horrendously important to remember that we only have part of one side of the story.  He didn't even go into details of conversations, ect., so we don't really have any basis to logically assume tehy are being dishonest.  Plus at least half of the problem lies with the girl's parents, which means Outkast probably doesn't even have the whole story.  Nobody on this forum has the right or the ability to judge the parents for breaking their promises, because nobody on this forum has all of the information necissary.

For all we know, things could have just come up, which happens and shouldn't be counted as the parents lying.

This being said I am not, nor have I, said that the parents going back on their promises is okay;however, there is not a lot anybody can do about that.  And being indignant is not going to solve anything.

I do not think that this is insubordination. I meant this to be done respectfully, to show the parents the position that they are imposing on the son and daughter.

No matter how you mean an offensive or rude statement, it is still going to come across as offensive or rude.  Telling the parents to go spend months apart is something that is more likely to get you in trouble than it is to solve the problem, whether or not you had good intentions.  I'm sure the parents understand the position the kids are in, it's just not the top of their priorities.  There are more important things to an adult with a buisness and obligations than cart their kid cross-country to see a kid that they are dating, especially when the parents probably don't see the relationship as serious.  And why should they?  The girl is fourteen, she has no idea what she wants, she's hardly ready to be married, I'm sure, and she has other things that should be a priority, such as school and whatnot. A child dating is not, nor should it be, the top of their priorities.

Define significant. Many teens have killed themselves over rejection in relationships that were only "high school relationships." That is very significant. Some teens get married when they are teens, and it ends up being a great marriage. It is still a high school relationship, but it is also very significant. Don't discard the idea that high school relationships can be significant.

I advise you to Entropy's previous statement.  And I add this.  People are stupid.  Just because they killed themselves over it doesn't mean it was really that significant.  The OUTCOME of the relationship was significant because they are stupid, but the relationship itself probably wasn't that important.  Given there are the occasional high school relationships that become more and are worhtwhile.  But those are so rare that it should hardly be the PARENTS' job to go out of their way to give their kids a day or two of face time.

Oh, and by the way, I am under the impression that Outkast is closer to 16 than he is 14, I might be wrong.  We'll have to wait until his silly part of the world gets online.

Some of us may believe in not dating young, but their parents obviously don't have this rule.  They allowed the two to become involved.  This considered, I find it generally insensitive to now ignore his feelings.

Just because the parents allowed their kids to become involved doesn't make it their responsibility to make sure the kids can see eachother.  Their choice to let their kids date does not make it their problem if the kids do date.  I hardly think it is insensitive of the parents to be indifferent about a relationship the two of them chose to get into and chose to maintain long-distance.  It happens.


And I have a personal question I'd like to ask:  Why do you need to be face to face with her?  In the least, the girl is far too young to be doing anything physical, period.  If the parents openly allowed that I'd be very suprised.  And you are obviously communicating regularily, and that's what should really matter.  If you two are truly interested in eachother, what one another has to say should be the most important thing of all.  Especially concidering the fact that anything physical is highly inappropriate.  Can you really justify putting a terrible burden on your parents for a little face time?

And I don't recall seeing anything about you going out to see her, maybe I just missed that part.  If you haven't tried it, maybe you should, if this is that important to you.

[fuzzyoctopus]

Just because the parents allowed their kids to become involved doesn't make it their responsibility to make sure the kids can see eachother.  Their choice to let their kids date does not make it their problem if the kids do date.  I hardly think it is insensitive of the parents to be indifferent about a relationship the two of them chose to get into and chose to maintain long-distance.  It happens.

I'm sorry, what?  How is it NOT insensitive for them to not consider the emotions and problems their children are going through, when they have the ability to help them be happier, but do not do so.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I feel I've been misrepresented. I expressly said that teenage relationships are very significant to those who are in them.

But what you missed was that deeper relationships, at least of the sort we're talking, come later.

Sure they can lead to drastic action. But that's because teenagers, as a general rule, believe they know it all.

THat sounded crotchety, didn't it? But it's true. I'm not saying it to be snide or condescending. Teenagers don't think they know everything there is to know, but they've reached a point that many people never grow out of, that they can comprehend the depth and breadth of possible human experience (it is my belief that this is why so many people go Goth or turn to the literature of the Romantics or Sturm und Drang during adolecence). when, really, they don't know squat about how deep a relationship is.

So when they act, they think they're reacting to the most important thing in the world, and maybe it is to their limited experience. But what they have yet to experience is even deeper and more important and more significant.

Does that clarify my meaning? I don't expect you to believe me, just to understand what I'm communicationg.

And THAT'S why adults so often don't sympathize. it's hard to remember an experience you haven't had for 20 years in any terms other than the context of your recent life. And, having realized how objectively less significant the experience was to later experience, that's what they see. Be a little understanding of your parents, they're trying hard. They're rarely doing things deliberately to spite you (this does happen, but usually they don't get through 2 decades or so of marriage if they have that type of personality anymore).

and no, they weren't "looking for reasons" in the sense you put it. They were looking for an EXPLANATION for their feelings. The feeling of doom is a very legitimate one for parents. and that feeling fo worry and foreboding that parents feel is a justifiable cause for action and judgement. it has saved my kids LIVES.

What I'm saying with that is your parents are just human. They don't understand why they have this feeling and they think they need a logical basis for it. What i'm saying is that they already HAD a reason to act. They just didn't realize it.

I'm sensitive to your plight. It's frustrating, and it's not any fun. I know, I went through it, and at the time it was the most traumatic thing I dealt with. But as a parent, I think you're only doing yourself harm if you're building up disrepect and/or resentment for your parents.

[42]

Just to chime in, SE is right that deeper relations and emotions come later.

JFYI, from a developmental standpoint, a lot of the emotion centers of the brain undergo changes and formation during the ages of 14-20. At least in most humans. It not that children younger than this don't feel emotion, it just that how we percieve, feel, and understand emotion becomes more complicated. Hence all of those awful teenage mood swings.

So I think what Xiao is going through is quite complicated for him. And it going to be hard, but is also a good character growing opportunity if he can figure it all out.

[Archon]

No matter how you mean an offensive or rude statement, it is still going to come across as offensive or rude.

If you ask them to imagine how they would feel in that situation, I do not see how that is rude or offensive.

And being indignant is not going to solve anything.

Gorgon, realize that if people decided not to get offended or indignant or sick and tired of things, then bad things would never change. Nobody would see a reason to change things, since nobody was complaining. You have a defeatist attitude toward it, the idea that since it won't make a real difference, then you might as well not even bother. But if everyone believed themselves when they said that something wouldnt work, we would be far worse off in the world today for it.

I'm sure the parents understand the position the kids are in, it's just not the top of their priorities.  There are more important things to an adult with a buisness and obligations than cart their kid cross-country to see a kid that they are dating, especially when the parents probably don't see the relationship as serious.  And why should they?  The girl is fourteen, she has no idea what she wants, she's hardly ready to be married, I'm sure, and she has other things that should be a priority, such as school and whatnot. A child dating is not, nor should it be, the top of their priorities.

How are you sure of that? It doesnt really sound like they are listening to their daughter too well to me, so how would they know unless they assume. You can't assume these types of things. Second of all, I am guessing that you have never been in a relationship, so you don't know how it feels. Also, if nothing else, they should take her because they said they would. That is just basic honesty and trustworthiness. Additionally, they wouldn't let her go alone either. Lastly, you can't decide her priorities like you did. For all you know, she doesn't want to go to college, so she can afford to have priorities other than school.

The OUTCOME of the relationship was significant because they are stupid, but the relationship itself probably wasn't that important.  Given there are the occasional high school relationships that become more and are worhtwhile.  But those are so rare that it should hardly be the PARENTS' job to go out of their way to give their kids a day or two of face time.

Your first sentence here does not make sense at all. If they made the outcome of the relationship significant, then the relationship, in itself, is significant. Second of all, I guarantee, that if the situation were reversed, if the parents had a long distance relationship, they would see it as the child's job to bring them back and forth, if the child was stopping them from seeing one another. They don't even have to drive the daughter. They just have to tell her that she can go. But they won't. So you can't say that it is because it is a waste of their platinum valued time.

And I have a personal question I'd like to ask:  Why do you need to be face to face with her?  In the least, the girl is far too young to be doing anything physical, period.  If the parents openly allowed that I'd be very suprised.  And you are obviously communicating regularily, and that's what should really matter.  If you two are truly interested in eachother, what one another has to say should be the most important thing of all.  Especially concidering the fact that anything physical is highly inappropriate.  Can you really justify putting a terrible burden on your parents for a little face time?

You haven't been in a relationship before. It is very hard to explain. I can tell you that it is definitely very important though. Even if they aren't doing anything physical.

[Archon]

But what you missed was that deeper relationships, at least of the sort we're talking, come later.

SE, even if that were true, it doesn't make this relationship any less significant, and the adults should know that. If a parent has had a near death experience before, does that make it any less important when their child breaks his or her arm and is crying? No. And I am willing to bet that the later relationships being deeper would be due to previous relationships, at least in part. It is important in that respect also. Lastly, it is obviously very important to their child, and that should be a big consideration.

that they can comprehend the depth and breadth of possible human experience

Yes and no. Teens, I believe are to the point where they can understand at the same level as adults. They havent had all of the experiences yet, but they are intellectually capable of knowing how they feel, and they are capable (if they don't always take advantage) of logically making their own decisions.

So when they act, they think they're reacting to the most important thing in the world, and maybe it is to their limited experience. But what they have yet to experience is even deeper and more important and more significant.

So you would make them pass up the most important thing to them in their lives, just because they can always do it later, and it will be more meaningful then. What about the kid that dies before he has that chance?
What about the kid that never finds that deep meaningful relationship later? I understand what you are saying, but you are taking away the most important thing to a person because you think you know them better than they know themselves, or at least enough to know what will give them the most pleasure. But what if you are wrong? What if they are robbed of a beautiful sensation because they were promised a better one later, but it never came. Some people die alone. Some people will never have a wife. So don't take away what they have now, counting on something that may not happen, especially since it could be the most important thing in the world to them.

But as a parent, I think you're only doing yourself harm if you're building up disrepect and/or resentment for your parents.

I hate when people tell me things like that. I have been known, especially in my younger years, but still now, to have a temper. And people always tell me that when I am angry at someone, I only hurt myself. Some people do not deserve respect. Some people deserve resentment. If you don't oppose parents somehow when they are unjust, then you might as well think that they are gods, and be absolutely delighted with every decision they make.