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Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Vintage on April 26, 2008, 12:43:34 AM
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I am sorry if this has been discussed already. I did not look on all threads that were created before I arrived. But this has to be discussed and studied...
Reading Brandon's annotation is enlightening
Kelsier's warning about not flaring metals too much is a foreshadowing for book three of the trilogy. You'll see what I mean in a couple of years. Also, there's something very important about Vin's brother that will be hard to pick out, but has been foreshadowed since the first book. . . .
So I would wish us to discuss what we think we discovered about Reen that would be so hard to pick... for one person by his or herself... ;)
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I am sorry if this has been discussed already. I did not look on all threads that were created before I arrived. But this has to be discussed and studied...
Reading Brandon's annotation is enlightening
Kelsier's warning about not flaring metals too much is a foreshadowing for book three of the trilogy. You'll see what I mean in a couple of years. Also, there's something very important about Vin's brother that will be hard to pick out, but has been foreshadowed since the first book. . . .
So I would wish us to discuss what we think we discovered about Reen that would be so hard to pick... for one person by his or herself... ;)
The main thing about Reen that struck me as interesting was that Vin hears his voice in her head.
When reading MB2 for the second time, it reminded me a lot about how Zane was spoken to by God.
I don't think there is any evidence of the God/Ruin <-> Hemalurgy link in the first book, but that is when you learn about the history behind Vin's earing.
Thus, I supposed that IMO what is "hard to pick out" is that Ruin (or maybe Preservation in this case) is speaking to Vin as Reen.
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I did think something like that... some days or weeks back, but how would the Inquisitor tell her that Reen had been screeming that she had died way before before they killed him ?
Otherwise, everything seemed to fit. The beatings could have been anybody but Vin could have thought they were Reen's doing if she was half-concious. She could have taken care of herself after her mother had fled. Do we ever have a physical description of her brother ?
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I think darxbane means the voice of reen in Vin's head is ruin or preservation
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Sure, it sounds good to say that Reen's voice is Ruin--I quite like the idea. But, what does Ruin have to gain by doing this to Vin? I thought the entire point of MB2 was to make sure Vin was the perfectly noble hero in order to "stop the Deepness". If Ruin was acting as Reen's voice, constantly saying that "anyone can betray you" does not sound like the thing to say to groom the perfect hero.
Secondly, for most of the second book, Vin doesn't hear the voice, and yet does wear her Hemalurgic earring all the time. If we say that the Lord Ruler was supressing the power of Ruin during the Final Empire, then wouldn't after the Lord Ruler is dead, Vin's voices get worse?
That is not to say Ruin couldn't do that. He's insanely manipulative; he could have easily done it. It could easily be some super-secret enigmatic plot on his part that we can scarcely comprehend.
(But I doubt that very much.)
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It could also be preservation, at the end of book one, before "Reen's" whispers cease, the voice says, go to him.
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Sure, it sounds good to say that Reen's voice is Ruin--I quite like the idea. But, what does Ruin have to gain by doing this to Vin? I thought the entire point of MB2 was to make sure Vin was the perfectly noble hero in order to "stop the Deepness". If Ruin was acting as Reen's voice, constantly saying that "anyone can betray you" does not sound like the thing to say to groom the perfect hero.
Secondly, for most of the second book, Vin doesn't hear the voice, and yet does wear her Hemalurgic earring all the time. If we say that the Lord Ruler was supressing the power of Ruin during the Final Empire, then wouldn't after the Lord Ruler is dead, Vin's voices get worse?
That is not to say Ruin couldn't do that. He's insanely manipulative; he could have easily done it. It could easily be some super-secret enigmatic plot on his part that we can scarcely comprehend.
(But I doubt that very much.)
I honestly think the reason that Reen's voice doesn't appear much in MB2 is because if it did, it would be easier to make the connection between Reen's voice and Zane's. Thus, I think Brandon minimized the use to try and leave this as a surprise for as many readers as possible.
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Good point. With so much villains and manipulation going on in the first place, placing another element into our down-to-earth protagonist would be completely confusing.
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Or maybe PRESERVATION (sorry, it's just what I think) was unable to keep talking because of Ruin's growing influence.
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I suppose that makes sense, Comatose, but I just can't see a reason for preservation to talk to Vin.
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True, and I guess if it was preservation, and preservation is the mist spirit, then we'd see some conjunction there. The mist spirit seems unable to communicate by mental or verbal means, relying on pointing and tearing paper. This inablity to communicate leads my back to my theory that preservation is trapped in the mists by ruin.
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Reen talks less, and the Mist Spirit appears around Vin...
Would you think it could be related ?
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my theories about Reen have mostly been against the idea that Ruin is using his voice, as Reen's comments to Vin seem counterproductive to moving Vin away from someone who only cared about herself to someone who would do what appeared to be the right thing no matter what personal loss she would incur. That with the fact that Reen's comments changed at about the same time Vin found out that he gave his life to protect her led me to believe that it was all in her head. However, the annotation above just gave me a crazy idea. What if Reen's spirit was chosen by Preservation to act as her guardian, and has taken the form of the Mist Spirit? Hehe! Even if it's not true it's still cool. When the Mist spirit "attacked" her, it was actually Reen trying to remove the earring. He watches Elend because he does not trust him, and even tries to get him to head away from Luthadel. Finally, after unsuccessfully attempting to convince Vin not to release Ruin, he shows her how to save Elend. He can't communicate with her directly, but he can use allomancy. I wonder what would happen if she flared zinc or copper at the mist spirit? Would it create a link between them?
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It would make sense. Ruin wanted to be released and worked hard to prepare Vin for the job. And Ruin did want her alive so much that it never told Zane to kill her. In a sense, Ruin protected Vin. On the other end, Reen always told Vin to question everything that was around her, always encouraged her to be suspicious. It would have been a very good chanel for the Mist to use his voice. For one thing, Vin trusted Reen and therefore the Mist Spirit would get her attention.
Thinking of this, though, makes me think at something else. If the Inquisitors were from Ruin (I strongly believe they are but now...), they could not wish to kill her. So why were they looking for her ? And obviously, TLR wanted her to be found as well...
My poor head...
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I think most people now think that Reen's voice = Ruin's voice, but here is a bit more evidence.
In the first book, every time you have Reen's words, she never 'hears' them. She always "thinks" them.
i.e. "Vin thought ....."
Later on, we get the format:
"Reen's voice said, "
Interestingly enough, when you first see the earing in the book, and she first puts it in (when she get's back to the Lair & the Ministry is on to them) she walks out and is beaten by Camon. During that time, just after she puts the earing in, the text reads:
"In her mind, she thought she heard a voice whispering to her. Reen's voice."
From then on, it changes to Reen's voice actually speaking to her, and not just her thinking what he would of said.
IMO that seals the deal.
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I think that in book 2, Ruin showed the ability to be very subtle and manipulative. I think he would talk to different people in different ways, depending on how he wanted to shape their personalities. Not everyone under his influence would hear a constant "kill him" in their head upon seeing someone.
Reen's voice in Vin's head reinforced her own self-doubt (at least). How would that be to Ruin's advantage?
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It would isolate her, forcing her to follow her own council. Then, it would bring her to face to well's power and making it a throw of dice. No, Ruin had to make sure that Vin would give up the power and not keep it for herself. It is actually trusting others that allowed her to do what she did. She would have kept the power if she had been revengeful, selfish, completely paranoiac. She wasn't by the time she reached the Well. Yeah ! Why wasn't she ever searching for revenge ?
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Reen's voice in Vin's head reinforced her own self-doubt (at least). How would that be to Ruin's advantage?
It just goes to show you that people see what they want to see, and ignore whatever might disprove their theory.
Vintage - Actually, they wanted her alive. She was probably the only Skaa allomancer in the world who they would have brought before the Lord Ruler, instead of just torturing and killing her like they usually would. She was the proof they needed to take over control of the Ministry, so they would only have killed her if she left them no choice.
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I'm upgrading our thread :)
In my re-read (very slow, I tell you !), I have noticed a few things regarding Reen.
First, the book talks of Reen's words till Vin puts on her earring and then... it's Reen's voice, sometimes Reen's words, but it continues more and more with Reen's voice only as "a voice in her head".
Second, when Vin wants to flee Carmon's lair she gets her personal possession. Her earring of course, pebbles from each place she passed through with Reen... and Reen's bit of obsidian. Now, Reen is a very practical man so, I don't think he kept that nice little thing just for sentimental value or memories of travels. So I checked in the dictionnary (I confess, I am ignorant of a lot of things lol) to discover that obsidian have a magma origin. Now, isn't it interesting all of a sudden ? I bet it's related somehow to the Ashmounts. I keep on looking for clues but does anyone remember anything about this or have any thoughts we could explore ? I keep on looking for clues.
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Obsidian is a very hard stone that would is used to make non-metallic weapons in this story. The Inq's have obsidian axes, and the archers switch to obsidian tip arrows when they shoot at allomancers. Reen probably kept it as a weapon against Mistings.
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I'm upgrading our thread :)
In my re-read (very slow, I tell you !), I have noticed a few things regarding Reen.
First, the book talks of Reen's words till Vin puts on her earring and then... it's Reen's voice, sometimes Reen's words, but it continues more and more with Reen's voice only as "a voice in her head".
Second, when Vin wants to flee Carmon's lair she gets her personal possession. Her earring of course, pebbles from each place she passed through with Reen... and Reen's bit of obsidian. Now, Reen is a very practical man so, I don't think he kept that nice little thing just for sentimental value or memories of travels. So I checked in the dictionnary (I confess, I am ignorant of a lot of things lol) to discover that obsidian have a magma origin. Now, isn't it interesting all of a sudden ? I bet it's related somehow to the Ashmounts. I keep on looking for clues but does anyone remember anything about this or have any thoughts we could explore ? I keep on looking for clues.
I noticed the same thing when I last read MB1. The words chosen to describe when Vin "hears" Reen are very particular.
I'm going on the record as a member of the "Reen's voice = Ruin via the Earing" group.
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Obsidian also chips with a sharp edge. Flakes into a really sharp edge, actually, so it makes a good non-metallic weapon. Except I think it can shatter... But that may just be me going crazy.
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And I don't think Reen's voice is Ruin. Preservation, maybe, but not Ruin. Maybe even just Reen.
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good point
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Qarlin, what makes you think it could be Preservation ?
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There's nothing to say it isn't Preservation, but it's a stretch. I like the idea that Reen's spirit is trying to protect her the only way he knows how. However, I am still sticking with the theory that Reen's voice is strictly Vin's subconscious. My biggest evidence for this is how the voice, which always had negative things to say, suddenly grew more positive after Vin found out Reen gave his life to keep the Inquisitors from finding her. He must have endured unimaginable torture and still protected her. After that, the voice suddenly tells her to go to Elend, rather than the usual everyone will betray you speech. In book 2, the only time she hears Reen's voice is when she is again doubting herself or Elend. It all sounds too convenient to me.
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The only reason I think it could be Preservation is because all of Reen's influence, if listened to, would stop Vin from being the hero Ruin needed her to be in order to release it. Counter-manipulation. A stretch, to be sure, but more believable to me than Reen being Ruin. That's it.
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So, we have some new insight into Reen's voice. Brandon said in one of his new annotations (Mistborn 2, Chapter 34, to be exact,) about Reen's voice that it was,
-partially a representation of her subconscious-
Now, this to me sounds as if it must also partially be something outside of her subconcious, such as Ruin or Preservation. It's not much, but I think it's worth mentioning.
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I noticed that too. Well at least we have something to go on. The hard part now is to figure out when the voice is Vin's subconscious and when it is something else.
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So, we have some new insight into Reen's voice. Brandon said in one of his new annotations (Mistborn 2, Chapter 34, to be exact,) about Reen's voice that it was,
-partially a representation of her subconscious-
Now, this to me sounds as if it must also partially be something outside of her subconcious, such as Ruin or Preservation. It's not much, but I think it's worth mentioning.
very interesting....i think to find out what the outside agent manipulating her is, we need to find a motive. Who would want to sow doubt and distrust in her life? What is accomplished by that?
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The biggest and most obvious motive is to prevent her from having faith in others. If you feel you can only count on yourself, and you are given almost god-like power, would you give it away? If you can't trust, would you believe anyone who told you to give that power away?
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The biggest and most obvious motive is to prevent her from having faith in others. If you feel you can only count on yourself, and you are given almost god-like power, would you give it away? If you can't trust, would you believe anyone who told you to give that power away?
So you believe it is Preservation?
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It's very possible. We would have to learn when Reen's voice is her subconscious and when it is something more.
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well think of this. ruin has the ability to tamper with the keepers metal minds. It altered the keeper religion finding someone who fit their prophecies perfectly. It could be that due to her earing she heard ruin/reens voice telling her to distrust everyone to keep her safe till ruin could be released by her. mabey thats why in the second book she doesn't here a voice but rather the thumpings? idk just a thought.
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I think Reen's voice is Vin's sub-concious, mainly because of the change, but it is a bit coincidental, I admit, that Vin is "hearing" voices. My main argument against it being Ruin, is that Ruin's influence was limited during the lord ruler's reign, true, Vin's mother heard voices, as did Zane, probably, but I don't think it was Ruin in Vin's head
Side note: what if it was preservation who spoke to Vin's mother, we know no reason for this, but their could be a hidden motive, and wouldn't that be a carzy twist? Perhaps Preservation ahd it's own reasons for giving tVin the ability to pierce copper clouds, isn't her extreme skill with bronze what led her to the mist spirit. It still seems rathe counter productive though, I mean, the earring also allowed her to find the well and free Ruin.
Thirdly, I'm going to back track a bit, I really really like the idea of Reen being the mist spirit, it makes so much sense!
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The only problem I have with that, Coma, is that at the end of WoA, the mist spirit never once speaks to vin mentally or verbally. Instead, it uses a bunch of gestures. It shows her the bead of metal to feed Elend, and has to basically mime feeding it to him. Why would it do that if it could just talk to her?
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I'm not saying the mist spirit is communicating with Reen voice to Vin, I'm saying that it IS Reen (And I'm just bbringing this up, this theory was thought up earlier on this thread). the voice and the spirit are completely separate entities. Vin hears Reen's voice because of her subconcious, but Reen could really be the Mist Spirit, sent by Preservation to protect and giuide Vin. I'm not saying the spirit is causing the voices, just that the Spirit is Reen in "person."
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Hmm... Interesting Idea. But then, why would Alendi have seen it? Was it a different mist spirit for him? That doesn't seem to fit with Brandon saying that for the mythology he wanted, he had to change it to only one mist spirit.
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For some reason as I read the book I constantly thought of the mist spirit as Alendi. That really doesn't make sense seeing how, as stated above, Alendi also saw the mist spirit. Although, maybe for each proposed Hero there is a new mist spirit attached to them maybe the spirit of the last "Hero". Just throwing that out there.
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Or perhaps the spirit of someone close to the hero sent to watch over him/her. Didn't Alendi go on the run because his family was killed or something?
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So you think the Mist Spirit was different for Alendi than it is for Vin?
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I think that's what he's trying to say. Coma, I'm fairly sure that we never hear anything about Alendi's family, but I could be wrong. Anyway, I personally believe that the mist spirit is one and the same for both of them, but it would be plausible for it to be different as well. I don't really think it matters all that much.
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So you think the Mist Spirit was different for Alendi than it is for Vin?
That is what I am saying. I don't think that it is entirely impossible for that to be the case. If you look the books as a whole, as with many other fantasy novels, it is very cyclical. You have the beginning where the sun was yellow and now it is red and the world was a very different place. Now you have the protagonist trying to bring things back full cirlce to the way things were before. So, having the previous supposed HOA be the mist spirit for the new HOA would fit. Kind of a cycle within a cycle. Well, that' s my theory anyways.
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That would make sense. Do the actions of the mist spirit give us any clues? When it first confronts Vin, it strikes her down, we know it influences Sazed's emotions. Does it ever show emotion? What do we really know about the mist spirit?
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The Mist Spirit does more than just strike her down. I just reread that part, and two things happen to her. She receives a touch on her arm that makes it feel frozen, then, she feels intense pain starting from her ear and going straight into her head. It appeared to me that the Mist Spirit was attempting to remove her earring.
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It all comes back to the earring. Oh, what wonders EUOL must be planning to reveal in MB3 in regards to that earring!
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There are several keys to the mistborn puzzle, and if we figure out completely just a couple of them, all the secets will unravel, and we should be able to figure things out: The earring, hemalurgy, the mists, the mist spirit. We're missing something from each, but they are all intertwined somehow, but how? I think the most important thing is the mists, they seem to be integrated into everything. They're also what we seem to know the littlest about.
And how the mist spirit tried to remove the earring, that seems to make it on preservation's side doesn't it, but we already susepceted that, and notice how the ring burns when the spirit touches it, like it's resisting it
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And how the mist spirit tried to remove the earring, that seems to make it on preservation's side doesn't it, but we already susepceted that, and notice how the ring burns when the spirit touches it, like it's resisting it
But the earring also burns when Vin is in the Well, which if I'm not mistaken is filled with Ruin. So how does that work?
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The earring Burns when she is in the well, but not when the mist spirit touches her. As darx said, she feels intense pain, not burning. He even metioned that she feels frozen when the spirit touches her arm. That's opposite enough for me. :)
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The earring Burns when she is in the well, but not when the mist spirit touches her. As darx said, she feels intense pain, not burning. He even metioned that she feels frozen when the spirit touches her arm. That's opposite enough for me. :)
OK, mist spirit freezes and well spirit burns, but they both seem to want her to remove the earring. Why?
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I attribute it to Preservation/Preservation's agent (depending on which mist spirit theory you believe) not liking hemalurgy.
The well has several possibilities. I think my favorite of these is that the well will cause you to feel a burning sensation if you have any metal on whatsoever. The other possibility is the whole "opposites attract, likes repel" thing, and the well is opposed to hemalurgy because it has a lot to do with ruin. Or the earrings hemalurgical properties temporarily increased in such close proximity to ruin and caused vin to feel a burning.
But long story short, there are ways to explain it.
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I would say it could be the power holding Ruin IN was what was reacting to the ring, and not Ruin itself.
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That's good I like that, the well has the power of creation right, so naturally, it would oppose things that are of Ruin.