Disney Info

[Skar]

I haven't met anyone (and I know some pretty scaribly liberal people) who believe anything similar to "it'd be better if children didn't have to deal with their parents."

You mean besides the folks who think abortions should be made available to pregnant minors without their parents consent right?  Or the folks who have arranged it so that children can be dosed with psychoactive drugs while they're at school without their parent's consent, right?  Or the folks who teach elementary school kids how to put on condoms without ever telling their parents...right?

That's a side issue though.  Not one I really think we disagree on at any fundamental level.

You're right about Narnia though.  I think the thing that really bothers me (don't you love how I use the board to think, instead of doing it before I post?) is when it's painfully clear that the author just didn't want to think about the parents as characters so they made them flat and stupid or simply played the "orphan" card.  That's just lazy and the stories don't usually ring true to me.

Children still learn lessons this way, but it comes out in a less preachy way than stories where an adult solves the problem.

I didn't mean to imply that I thought parents should solve all the problems.  They certainly didn't in my youth.  Things I learned from them helped me but they didn't swoop in with their hand of god glove and make things right.  I don't think that should be done in a story either.   Having the parents realistically portrayed in a story does not necessitate their solving all the problems for the kids.   Nor do I think that stories for kids all need to help the kid "learn lessons."

I'm not saying stories should never be written where the parents are absent.  Not at all.  The escapist, "read about doing things I'd be scared to do in real life," aspect is very real and also something I enjoy.  But I think the "orphan" card and the "parents are so stupid they're useless" card are played way too much.

[stacer]

Nor do I think that stories for kids all need to help the kid "learn lessons."

I think the "learning lessons" part is just one part of it. If you want to put it in more palatable terms, I'd substitute "character growth." They can have mentors in stories--and often do--but have to make decisions for themselves. Often, with younger children (i.e., anything younger than teens), they don't do a whole lot of active independent decision-making when a parent is nearby. The parent usually gives them choices, and they have the ability to choose between a limited number of things, rather than the more developed autonomy a teen might have (while still having parents around).

So, the easy way is to get rid of the parents, and then you're all set for adventure. I agree--it's the easy way--but that's the reasoning behind it.  I prefer it when there's more of a mentoring going on, with the parent still a character, but perhaps not serving much of a role in the story, to get the same effect. I'd pull up examples, but my mind is all caught up in The Wayward Wizard, and Sindri Suncatcher's parents let him go on wanderlust long ago.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

meh... the orphan card doesnt bug me much. As an adopted child I often had fantasies that my parents were A.) not my real parents or B.) going to one day dissapear. I think the idea of daydreaming aboutnot having a parent is kind of an outshoot of childhood and growing. Kind of a set up for later on in life.

Skar, having an orphan child is actually less common in fairy tales and fiction than having just one parent. The idea is that one parent just cant cope and because of that things get out of control. When you consider that many of these stories feature children who are really young men and women at the cusp of adulthood the parent usually only serves to push the child out the door often with some last advice that the children ignore. Its a remarkably realistic and modern lesson in many ways especially when you consider the number of single parent families there are in the world today. And lets not forget all those wicked stepmother stories ... Like Hansel and Gretel and Snow White where the new parent is a problem in the family. Writing like that is usually only lazy when its really lazy. That sounds like a bit of a cop out, but lets face it, good writers can turn cliches into gold 99 percent of the time and not have it get old. Its the bad writers we have to worry about; fortunately they usually muck up a story worse than just the death of a characters parents would do by the shear force of their own writing.

But it bugs me when people feel like they have to attack liberal people when it comes to families. In my experience political values and family values have very little to do with one another, in spite of much gnashing of the teeth and rhetoric... I have know extremely liberal families (almost anarchist in political leanings) with a strong sense of family values and responsibility and some very conservative families in dire straights due to their weak sense of family values. No one side owns a monopoly on family values all rhetoric to the contrary.

anyway, I sense Skar is gonna blow up at this post, so this will be my last one on this thread.

[Tink]

Okay, I know this is off topic, but how many people around here are adopted or know someone adopted? Because as I recall at least a couple people on here said they were adopted, plus I believe Fish said her mom was adopted, and my husband was adopted. I just think that is an high amount since in real life, I only know my husband. Maybe it's more common than I thought!

[Nessa]

how many people around here ... know someone adopted?

I have two cousins who were adopted, plus a good friend in college, plus one of the boys in the cub scout den I teach, plus another good friend from college adopted two kids.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Well, Jeffe, whom I've known since high school.
Plus a cousin and both my nephews. My wife's best friend, too.

[Shrain]

I guess you could say I'm half-adopted. My mom divorced my (deadbeat) biological father just after I was born. Never knew him and don't particularly want to.
Aaanyway, she got remarried when I was 4 and Alan Bylund has been my dad ever since.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

I think the gateway to my great series of life adventures (read all about them in my upcoming book/ RPG campaign "The Adventures of Mad Dr. Jeffe The Unvanquished") was my adoption, and then my parents subsequent divorce in highschool. So there you go,... no family stability = Adventure.

[Shrain]

Yeah, maybe the moral of the story is that The Cleavers are way more boring than the Simpsons. Bart's adventures leave Beaver's looking mighty hum-drum. Not to say that I'd wish a kid like Bart on any parent, of course...

[Fellfrosch]

I don't get it: both the Simpsons and the Cleavers are solid nuclear families with both biological parents. How does that relate?

[Shrain]

Uh, you're right. The connection is a tenuous one. oops.

I guess I was keying off on Jeffe's mention of "stability"--and by extension, dysfunctional families like the Simpsons vs. uber-perfect, idyllic families like the Cleavers in terms of gauging the potential for adventurous exploits. That's all. So I kinda got sidetracked in my comparison, leaving the orphan factor out of the equation. :-/

[Skar]

anyway, I sense Skar is gonna blow up at this post, so this will be my last one on this thread.

Your sense was wrong.  You made a point and it was internally consistent and was obviously based on actually reading my post.  I don't blow up in those cases.  I try not to blow up in any case.

The stories where the young people are actually young people on the cusp of adulthood, and the story is about them crossing the threshold, are not the ones we're talking about.  At least not the ones I'm talking about.  The stories I'm talking about are the ones where the parents would normally be present but aren't because the writers either have a transparent political agenda aimed at  undermining "traditional" values or they're just lazy.  The crux of my statement is I think there's too much of that offhanded dismissal of parents in mainstream media: books, television, and movies. And it bugs me.

As for liberals and families it all comes down to how you define liberals.  I was perhaps too broad with my brush strokes.  All the examples I gave are things that come from the commonly labeled "liberal" side of the aisle and they all are functions of the idea that the liberals know how to raise your kids better than you do, which is cutting the kids loose from the parents.

I'm not trying to say that no liberals have family values.  Just that the forces and ideas  fighting against the family mostly come from the "liberal" camp.

And to tie this back into the parents being absent from stories topic... I find stories that reflect real life in the underlying details more fulfilling and interesting than those that don't.  And the fact remains that most kids grow up in two parent households.  That's changing but I think it's bad that it's changing and that it's a direct result of cultural conditioning against the values that keep families together and the parents responsible for the children.  The values that undermine families are coming from the same folks who preach the three things I listed in my last post.  That's how the two things tie together.

Sorry if I've offended anyone.  Really sorry I've developed a reputation for blowing up.  I hope I'm getting better at not.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I find it hilarious when Republicans and other conservatives claim that the Democrats or liberals are the ones who say they know more about how to live your life than you do.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

But these are the stories that Disney is using... Stories where children cross that cusp. Sleeping Beauty isnt going back to being a girl, and neither is Snow White. The resolution of the story is them moving on into a new role in life, adulthood or Womanhood. The same is true of just about every Disney film ever made, except Pinnochio (though one could argue) Even Dumbo grows up.

I dont think you and I have read the same stories either, because I would say your scenario is the exception rather than the rule.

[Fellfrosch]

Given that the entire plot of Pinnochio revolves around him trying to prove himself and advance to a higher state of responsibility and "being," I'm going to count it as a coming of age story as well.