BYU tries to cancel SF/F 318

[Sigyn]

Skar, I suppose this isn't the point of this thread, but just so you know, absolutely no tithing money goes into the sports program at BYU (including the scholarships for football players). All of that money comes from donations from people who like BYU sports (poor lambs) and from what the sports programs earn.  I hate BYU football as much as anyone, but I thought we should be correct.

[Skar]

I'm aware of that and I understand your point.  However, the BYU football program is part and parcel with BYU.  BYU supports/is responsible for its football program and my tithing money goes to the school.  Without BYU, and therefore my tithing money, the BYU football program would not exist. That bugs me and is what I was primarily trying to say.  Admittedly, I phrased it rather inflammatorily.  But I hope you see my point.

[House of Mustard]

Without BYU, and therefore my tithing money, the BYU football program would not exist.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the problem.  Football players are not the only students who get kicked out of school for breaking the honor code.

You all seem upset with the football program, but I don't see how it's hurting any of you.  Would you care to elaborate?

[EUOL]

I will say that first, I Skar's second explanation makes a lot more sense than the first.  (I too was going to post that the football department doesn't get tithing money.)

I can see his point, in a way.  In my mind, the football department/team would be a wonderful way for BYU and the church to place values in front of fame.  If they made a point of using only LDS players who were valiant in their testimonies, they could show this off as the way we think things should be done.  We'd lose more games, but we'd win a moral victory.  (By the way, this goes for the cheerleaders and their uniforms too.)

However, I will point out that most college football programs are vital to a school's money flow.  Football generally pays for all of the other sports--without the revenue its tickets bring in, other programs wouldn't be able to function.  The football program is actually an appeasement of the alumni, many of whom really want it, and who are willing to donate large sums of money to the university because of the loyalty a team brings.  In addition, the notoriety the team gains the school cannot be discounted.

[House of Mustard]

Well, things are looking up, if that's your complaint.  When they reorganized the athletic department several weeks ago (in the wake of the rape charge), they said they were doing so to place the emphasis more on values than winning.

As far as cheerleaders go, Joseph Fielding Smith talked about that in Answers to Gospel Questions, and actually said cheerleader uniforms are okey-dokey, because they're a costume -- similar to dressing up for a play.  (Within reason, of course.)

[Skar]

You all seem upset with the football program, but I don't see how it's hurting any of you.  Would you care to elaborate?

Sure.  It's an old burning frustration of mine.  So maybe I should just let it go, after all I'm well clear of the place now.  
I worked as a security guard for BYU at the MTC for several years as I was going to school there. As such I was in-the-know on a lot of the shenanigans that got people tossed out of the school.  There were three factors that got you a get-out-of-jail-free card in just about every case. (and by this I mean you would not be expelled or disciplined for actions that had gotten other students who weren't in the proper category so punished)  1: You were related to a general authority.  2: You were a football player.  3:Your behavior never hit the press.

So my tithing today goes to support that institution and it bugs me that it conducts itself in that way.  Of course, when a football player gets out of line and the press hears about it, it's considered news so that's where my attention is focused.

I'm glad to hear that they are going to restructure to put values ahead of winning, why in the world weren't they there to begin with?

As for the idea that the football program is OK because it supports the other sports and that most of the money for the school comes from private donors anyway so why get you panties in a bunch over the tithing portion?  I ask why I got browbeaten with the idea that tithing was a huge part of the funding for the school and therefore I shouldn't complain about all the little extra ways they found to goudge me while I was there.

But now I sound like a BYU hater.  There were some things that really bugged me.  Overall, going to school there was a great experience, which I'd repeat.

[House of Mustard]

There were three factors that got you a get-out-of-jail-free card in just about every case. (and by this I mean you would not be expelled or disciplined for actions that had gotten other students who weren't in the proper category so punished)  1: You were related to a general authority.  2: You were a football player.  3:Your behavior never hit the press.

If this is your reason for hating the football program, you must hate the GA's relatives too.  

I'm not saying it's a perfect system--I just think you're being a little harsh on something that isn't that bad.  It sounds more that your complaint is with the double standard in the honor code office than the football program.

[Skar]

Exactly.  It lies primarilywith the double-standard in the honors department rather than with the football program. Nowhere is that double standard thrown further into the light than in its treatment of the football program.  

Heck, I've really got no beef with the football program itself.  I wouldn't mind it existing if the honor code office did an evenhanded job.  Having a winning football team is good business for a school.  But a school like BYU should place values over winning.  If they really start putting values over winning and history is any indication we'll soon have a five man squad for a football team.

(Now I'm sure I'm being unfair to the majority of football players at BYU, but what are they going to do, beat me up?)  

[stacer]

When they reorganized the athletic department several weeks ago (in the wake of the rape charge)

I must not be keeping up on my BYU news. Did a football player rape someone? That's horrible.

[MsFish]

 If they made a point of using only LDS players who were valiant in their testimonies, they could show this off as the way we think things should be done.  

Can I just point out that there are plenty of people who are not LDS who have values?  I don't think the problem with the football program is that they recruit non-members.  You seem to imply here that non-members don't have values, and that's just not true.  I completly agree that the football program needs to be harder on insisting on the honor code and everything that goes along with that, but I don't think limiting play to members with testimonies is the answer.  Besides, how do you measure that?

[House of Mustard]

I must not be keeping up on my BYU news. Did a football player rape someone? That's horrible.

It's worse than you think: allegedly, it was FOUR men who raped her (she being 17 and intoxicated).  It was before the semester started, and they haven't said whether the other three men were students, just that one was a football player.

Which kind of leads into the other topic: the problem, I think, is that BYU football has been under such intense pressure to win that they've been recruiting more for talent than for values.  The reorganization (where both Athletic Directors were 'restructured', ie fired) is to make sure that that mindset is gone.  I would imagine that Crowton will be the next to go if anything else happens.

[Sigyn]

Crowton will go because he can't win games.

[Entsuropi]

If they made a point of using only LDS players who were valiant in their testimonies, they could show this off as the way we think things should be done.  We'd lose more games, but we'd win a moral victory.

You would also get sued for discrimination, and with good reason.

[Spriggan]

It's a private school Entorpy, discrimation laws wouldn't apply.

[42]

BYU is like Notre Dame and other private religious institutions. To get into Notre Dame you have be endorsed by and endorse yourself the Catholic Church, more or less. BYU is the same way, just for the LDS faith. There are a lot of universities like that.

Course the point of private religious institutions is to provide a place for their faith's members to become educated without facing the discrimination they can encounter in public institutions. Course, when the private institutions have to compete against the public institutions, I unfortunately believe that some of their values get traded in.