WOT Help

[happyman]

I just wanted to add that one of Perrin's special abilities seem to match that of a dreamer---his wolf skills give him special access to the world of dreams, including premonitions.

This is definitely above and beyond what is normal in Randland.

I can't help but wonder sometimes if there is some common principle between Min's viewing, Hurin's sniffing and Perrin's wolfbrother abilities.  It seems to me that the world is changing and something new is going to dominate the next age.  That something may be the common denominator represented by these new, non-Power talents.

[Renoard]

Unless you've gotten that from Rigney's notes you might want to be careful about making such definitive statements.

There is real reason to believe these are Mat's personal past life experiences.  One of the most important reasons, is that the memories seem to be from people who are opposed to the One Power and the Aes Sedai in particular.  In other words not people who would be walking into a terangreal.  Secondly Matt's "wish" was for his memory to be restored.  Thirdly if it were people who encountered the "finns" then it would have included people who were male Aes Sedai and false dragons.  None of his memories include men who remember using the One Power, and reasonable the majority of people encountering the "finns" would have been. 

The idea that it is a selection of past encounters with the finns just doesn't hold together logically or by the rules of WoT world.

The sensible interpretation is that they are therefore "his' memories, but in true Eel Finn/Ael Finn perversity they are not the one's from the life he is currently living and intended.

[melbatoast]

But Mat has memories that are from people on two different sides of a battle. He can't be more than one person at once; therefore, not all the memories are his.

ETA: Just checked the FAQ. RJ did make a statement about this:

    RJ: Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said [he wanted] to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.

See http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.5_mat-memory.html

Oh, and apparently my original statement was false. My bad.

[Vatdoro]

There is real reason to believe these are Mat's personal past life experiences.

Renoard - I don't think so. I agree with melbatoast on this one. I seem to remember Matt having memories from multiple people in the same age. Melbatoast mentioned Matt having memories from multiple people in the same battle (even different sides of the same battle). I can't think of any examples of that, but I seem to remember something like that too. Anyone have the books handy and want to point out some examples? 

Seems to me that Matt's memories are just a bunch of memories from different people, mostly generals and commanders. I'm not sure if the memories are from people that visited the land of Finn or not, but that theory at least makes a little bit of sense. I seem to remember the Finn vicariously "enjoying" people's memories when they were visiting with them. I think that's the reason the Finn even allow humans to contact them. They gain something from sifting through people's memories. I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is it kind of makes sense the Finn would have access to people's memories that they could have dumped into Matt.

[Renoard]

As we say in my discipline "the author is dead."  Before anyone reads a slight to Mr. Rigney into that, Brian is "dead" too, where his writing is concerned.  Once it goes to the printer, the Author dies and Brian turns into just another writer.   The responses of the reader as they experience the work, limited by some rules for good sense interpretation, are where the story lives.  Once the audience gets ahold of it the writer has a lot less to do with the meaning or what's "true."

When I approach a work I look in the assumptions that characters make about how to interpret things and base a lot of my analysis on using these assumptions to intentionally bias my interpretations.  It works well enough but can leave me at odd's with a writer about his own work.   If there really are examples of multiple men from the same battle then that would tend to eliminate the possibility that they are Mat's past lives, but that remains to be proven. 

But I still maintain that they couldn't be limited to or even mostly composed of people who used the terangreal because that would require men who channeled in battle to be part of the mess.  As for ancestors, reincarnation myths don't require that the reincarnated be incarnated as their own descendants.  The wolf theory you brought up earlier highlights this point.  Also It's not necessary that the people are from different ages.  An age is an awfully long time.  Besides they same spirit could have been one person on one trip round the wheel and another one on the next.  So being in the same battle more than once is not completely impossible either.

[Bookstore Guy]

If there really are examples of multiple men from the same battle then that would tend to eliminate the possibility that they are Mat's past lives, but that remains to be proven. 

Matt says it himself several times in the text. I would give you page numbers, but my copies of the books are in audio form

[Renoard]

By the time I was done, I'd argued myself back to remembering that it doesn't completely prove me wrong.

[Shard]

Yes but then we could refute that whole Taimandred Theory and we'd get NO WHERE fast. I suspect he didn't want us to waste any further time on a dead end theory. Though Matt's memories are different just don't expect him to do any reflection like "Gee I screwed up in my last life didn't I?" Like you would in Katheryn Kerr's stories. They can't ALL be his lives since he does remember both sides of the battles. When a person goes to the Finns and makes their questions or requests there is ALWAYS a price to pay. Memories is just one of them.

Hence from RJ himself:

RJ: Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said [he wanted] to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.

The Finns take from each person and give either answers or items to fullfill requests. Otherwise I don't think they'd have any Bargain at all if they didn't get something out of it. They are not doing it for free, they are doing it to get something. The humans have only just forgotten what it was they are giving or having taken from them.

[Renoard]

No there's no doubt that the people going into the terangreal are leaving something behind.  But I'm just saying that wherever they got the memories, it wasn't primarily from those visitors.  If the finns could simply copy memories it wouldn't cause amnesia in the victims.  If it is a process where the memories are extracted and leave amnesia behind, then they would have lost and gained nothing from mat, so no bargain.

The memories had to come from someplace else.  What we agree on is that the memories are a huge advantage for the young and upwardly mobile warlord.  His ability to sometimes consciously control the effects of his taveren nature are another.  His ability to sense whether events are falling in his favor or against him without knowing the facts is a third.  MAt is practically a superman.  Perrin's abilities while cool, are not the god-like advantages that both Mat and Rand ended up with.  Still Perrin is doing VERY well for himself.  He does a great deal more with less.  That is a sign of superior character in this (pardon the expression) character.  As a person he is far better and stronger than his old buddies from Emond's Field.

Of course he has huge advantages over someone like Galad or Gawyn, who had to build their power bases from nothing.  Yeah they grew up in a palace etc. but they were always going to play second banana to Elayne.  They grew up knowing they'd never have real power or position,  so they built it without any mystical advantages.  There is character in that.  I'd say the same for Masema if he weren't such a raving nut-bar.

Did I mention I like the name Zarine, even if she is as spoiled as Nyneave?

[Shard]

Well we have so far only seen Mat's interactions with the Finn, I could argue that prehaps Rand's visit DID leave something behind but were talking about Mat. I'm not sure what the Snakes got out of Mat's visit if it was copied memories, getting a kick out of watching a human sweat, but I am sure it was something.

At any rate it was the Foxfinn's that fulfill requests and are perhaps the ones that take memories from men as an option for price. As Mat is the only one to go into the Rhuidean door and since it's destruction no one else will be going in it we don't have anyone else to compare it with. So we don't know if men and women who get things from the Fox's come out with holes in their memories or not. It seems that the Fox's can set any price if you don't ask since Mat was apparently wise enough to ask for for a way out to begin with.

I mean if Mat clearly remembers both sides of the same battle then then he can't have ONLY memories of past lives or even just ancestors. The Foxfinn's had to have gotten those memories from somewhere. Perhaps in a time when the humans did remember the bargain with the Finn's they offered up memories they didn't need or want to remember any more.

[melbatoast]

Well, in KoD, Matt gives an explanation about where he thinks the memories came from, which makes a lot of sense. But this probably isn't something we need to discuss further in Joe's thread. We'll most likely find out in the next book anyway.

[douglas]

But I still maintain that they couldn't be limited to or even mostly composed of people who used the terangreal because that would require men who channeled in battle to be part of the mess.

Huh?  Where'd you get that from?  The ter'angreal does not require any ability to channel, only that you be adventurous enough to go through a mysterious door to the unknown to get three questions answered.  The ability to channel is irrelevant.

Also It's not necessary that the people are from different ages.  An age is an awfully long time.

No one's arguing that.  All of Mat's memories are from the Third Age.  He quite explicitly states at one point that they cover approximately the span of time from just before the Trolloc Wars through Artur Hawkwing's rise.

Besides they same spirit could have been one person on one trip round the wheel and another one on the next.  So being in the same battle more than once is not completely impossible either.

I really don't think the Wheel repeats ages with that degree of precision.  Whether a particular battle occurs again at all is very much open to question, and the details of how it resolves and who's in it, not to mention the names and appearances of the people and sides involved, will vary considerably.  If the Wheel repeated everything to that level of detail, the Dark One would have no need to ask what's happening because he's gone through it all before countless times.

No there's no doubt that the people going into the terangreal are leaving something behind.  But I'm just saying that wherever they got the memories, it wasn't primarily from those visitors.  If the finns could simply copy memories it wouldn't cause amnesia in the victims.  If it is a process where the memories are extracted and leave amnesia behind, then they would have lost and gained nothing from mat, so no bargain.

What makes you think it causes amnesia?  I do not recall any evidence anywhere that encounters with either variety of Finn generally cause memory loss.

The memories had to come from someplace else.

Why?  I'm fairly sure Robert Jordan is on record somewhere saying that's exactly where they came from, and Mat gives a very similar and quite sensible explanation himself in Knife of Dreams.  The source of Mat's memories is not really debatable without completely ignoring some rather strong evidence.

[Renoard]

Douglas your responses indicate that you didn't pay attention to what I was responding to.

But I still maintain that they couldn't be limited to or even mostly composed of people who used the terangreal because that would require men who channeled in battle to be part of the mess.

Huh?  Where'd you get that from?  The ter'angreal does not require any ability to channel, only that you be adventurous enough to go through a mysterious door to the unknown to get three questions answered.  The ability to channel is irrelevant.

The door terangreal does require channeling to operate, but the likelihood that it would have been constructed by Aes Sedai, then restricted to only non-channelers is so slight as to be a ridiculous assumption.

Also It's not necessary that the people are from different ages.  An age is an awfully long time.

No one's arguing that.  All of Mat's memories are from the Third Age.  He quite explicitly states at one point that they cover approximately the span of time from just before the Trolloc Wars through Artur Hawkwing's rise.

Renoard - I don't think so. I agree with melbatoast on this one. I seem to remember Matt having memories from multiple people in the same age. Melbatoast mentioned Matt having memories

Again I was responding to a direct statement that having multiple memories from the same age would somehow preclude them being Mat's reincarnations.  Such an assumption doesn't follow.

Besides they same spirit could have been one person on one trip round the wheel and another one on the next.  So being in the same battle more than once is not completely impossible either.

I really don't think the Wheel repeats ages with that degree of precision.  Whether a particular battle occurs again at all is very much open to question, and the details of how it resolves and who's in it, not to mention the names and appearances of the people and sides involved, will vary considerably.  If the Wheel repeated everything to that level of detail, the Dark One would have no need to ask what's happening because he's gone through it all before countless times.

Broad strokes or fine, if it is time turning and not just historical paradigms repeating then you are stuck with certain major events repeating closely enogh that the major players are the same.  If it is simply that archetypes and paradigms are repeated then you lose the "wheel" and get something linear but cycling.

No there's no doubt that the people going into the terangreal are leaving something behind.  But I'm just saying that wherever they got the memories, it wasn't primarily from those visitors.  If the finns could simply copy memories it wouldn't cause amnesia in the victims.  If it is a process where the memories are extracted and leave amnesia behind, then they would have lost and gained nothing from mat, so no bargain.

What makes you think it causes amnesia?  I do not recall any evidence anywhere that encounters with either variety of Finn generally cause memory loss.

Yep not my premise, was exploring someone else's assertion that assumed the amnesia.  I think is was shard's statement.  If it causes amnesia then it implies that the finn lost the memories that they gave Mat so they are at a net loss.  If they can copy them then there would be no amnesia.  You really have to pay attention to what someone else said that I might be responding to. ;P

The memories had to come from someplace else.

Why?  I'm fairly sure Robert Jordan is on record somewhere saying that's exactly where they came from, and Mat gives a very similar and quite sensible explanation himself in Knife of Dreams.  The source of Mat's memories is not really debatable without completely ignoring some rather strong evidence.

And yes, given that they are so selectively non-channy there are huge reasons, already cited that they would have to not be the users of the terangreal.  Another big one is the fact that many of the memory tracks include the death of the donor.  Kind of hard to use the terangreal AFTER dying. ;P  Now it's possible it's a plot hole that the author overlooked, but it's more likely that a lot of mistaken assumptions have made it into FAQs.

[Shard]

I never said anything about Amensia Renoard, the Foxes gave Mat three things: The Ashrendi Spear, the Foxhead Medallion and the memories to fill the blanks in his head. What they seemed to take was his life, which Rand was successful in getting back.

Now when Jordan himself says these memories came from people who came into contact with the Foxes and not from past lives OR descendants how can you refute that? Now the link to the FAQ on this statement has been posted twice already once by me and another poster so I'm not going to re-post it.

The Finn's are never really fully explained on how they work and why, most of it seems on theory. Their own world is Escher creation so they may be able to retroactively collect memories for all we know. It's been heavily implied that the Foxes have skinned humans at some point showing their studded pants straps to Mat. I feel like the game of Snakes and Foxes how you lose unless you cheat comes into play here.

They look for ways to trick you out of what you want.

[douglas]

There may be some posts on the last page I missed, and I should probably go back and read those.  Still, I think I can respond to your newest post.

The door terangreal does require channeling to operate, but the likelihood that it would have been constructed by Aes Sedai, then restricted to only non-channelers is so slight as to be a ridiculous assumption.

True, such a restriction seems quite silly as it would ban themselves from using it.  Men who channel, however, would have been hunted down, gentled, and kept under close watch and guard on general principle.  All of the memories are from the Third Age where Saidin is tainted, after all - this is explicitly confirmed by Mat's own mental recollection at one point.  So, men who channel would have been rare and kept away from the ter'angreal as a coincidental side effect of other policies regarding them.  Women who can channel do not appear in Mat's memories for the same reason that women in general don't.  Presumably, the Finns decided for some unknown reason to not cross gender boundaries with their memory filling.

Broad strokes or fine, if it is time turning and not just historical paradigms repeating then you are stuck with certain major events repeating closely enogh that the major players are the same.  If it is simply that archetypes and paradigms are repeated then you lose the "wheel" and get something linear but cycling.

Select major events, yes, and that would certainly include some battles.  Names and physical appearance, though, close enough that Mat would not realize they were different, is a bit to much imo.

And yes, given that they are so selectively non-channy there are huge reasons, already cited that they would have to not be the users of the terangreal.  Another big one is the fact that many of the memory tracks include the death of the donor.  Kind of hard to use the terangreal AFTER dying. ;P  Now it's possible it's a plot hole that the author overlooked, but it's more likely that a lot of mistaken assumptions have made it into FAQs.

No, it's a plot hole that doesn't exist.  There are multiple perfectly reasonable explanations and direct explicit authorial confirmation.

Given the restriction of Third Age males, probably due entirely to the Finns choosing to use the most recent available memories of the correct gender, the lack of channelers using the ter'angreal is no surprise at all.  For memories including dying, Mat believes the Finns established some sort of link with him and every other person to ever visit them that allows them to access their memories at any point after the link is made.  They also are known to have some ability to see the future - some of the answers they have given prove that - and might be able to browse a person's future memories when he's there.  Mat's theory seems more likely to me, though, as I'd expect the Finn's future sight to be less detailed than that.