Author Topic: Addiction, because its too big a topic ...  (Read 5966 times)

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Addiction, because its too big a topic ...
« on: June 06, 2005, 08:33:50 PM »
to be sidelined by Aquinus....

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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Addiction, because its too big a topic ...
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2005, 08:34:35 PM »
Osleon said
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They could check themselves into a rehabilitation clinic,

And who would pay?  Free rehab has a waitlist a mile long.  There is not enough funding to rehab all the people who want it, and when you live on the street, you dont exactly have a steady income or health insurance.  
Quote:
or remove themselves away to somewhere else where they won't have access to the object of their addiction

Again, how?  If your only income is the Johns you pick up on the street... How are you going to remove yourself to some isolated cabin in the woods?  With what money for travel/rent/food?
Quote:
People have shaken addictions before, and though withdrawals are awful, if they need to, they can shake their addiction.

Depending on the substance they are addicted to, unsupervised detox can be deadly.  Alcoholics can go into siezures that cause brain damage, Heroin withdrawl can cause stroke, etc...  
And Detox is only 1 step, most people forced through detox will go score IMMEDIATLY on release (I have seen it) addiction is deep seated in the body and mind and only a focused rehab effort has a chance of sending it into remission... there is no cure
« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 08:34:51 PM by ElJeffe »
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Addiction, because its too big a topic ...
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2005, 08:35:43 PM »
Archon said
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No, I haven't. I have not, and I will not, because I won't make choices that will put me into situations like that. However, even though I have not dealt with an addiction, I know that there are people who have shaken their addictions. I never said that it is easy, because that is obviously false. I never said that it is a desireable path to tread, because that would be foolish. I did say that there was another way that these people could be living their lives. SE, you act like these people don't have choices. I disagree, I think they have undesireable choices. For example, the choice between a job at Walmart, and prostitution. If one job won't allow them to make a living, then get another in addition. True, it is hard to manage two jobs, but for people that are pressed for money, I would think that it happens a decent amount. Or let's look at the addiction again. (Keep in mind that I am not in a situation like this, so I don't know all of the options that might be available.) The first option would be rehab. Ok, it costs money, and perhaps you can't raise that kind of money. Next, family or friends, look for someone close to you who might be willing to either lend you the money for rehab, or take you in, and take care of you while you are getting over your addiction. If you can't find any family or friends, look at local community service groups, support groups, to see if you can find any help there. The options get less appealing from there, but the point is that you can find help, if you look for it hard enough, and explore all of your options. Don't mistake my statements to mean that it is a path that I would like to take, but it is possible.
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Addiction, because its too big a topic ...
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2005, 08:42:09 PM »
Saint Said
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ok, possible in a very, very broad sense. Often far enough off to be unrealistic. You obviously haven't even dealt with addiction with someone close. Nor do you understand addiction. Most people who develop addictions don't go into things thinking they'll be addicted. Often they start into a behavior with NO IDEA that it's addictive.  

As for second jobs, who's watching your kid this whole time? I'm living in an area where if you live in a trash hole studio, you're STILL paying at least a grand a month. I've actually never seen anything that cheap. So, getting two jobs, if they're things like working at walmart, STILL isn't enough to live on, especially if you have dependents.

Your point that there are "choices" is taken, but it's not realistic, either. I think we can still consider these people forced into what they're doing.
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Addiction, because its too big a topic ...
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2005, 08:51:49 PM »
My wife is an addict. She is an alcoholic. Many people drink without being alcoholic. She did not know that drinking would become a hideous monster in her life. When she was full scale into her addiction the process of watching it was so horrible that her parents, my parents and I were too afraid to confront it.  We did put her into a rehab program and It nearly bankrupted her and I. I have a steady Military job and she's a government contractor. Our two incomes are good for the area we live, at the time she was just my fiance so my health care didn't cover her treatment or medication and hers didn't either. (That problem at least has been remedied). But it wasn't the treatment that was the problem because almost as soon as she got a clean bill of health she went out, slipped and went back into her pattern of behavior. My wife is not a stupid woman. She's one of the most brilliant people I know, she had me and the full force of her family supporting her and she still slipped. But thats a good situation, what about an abusive family, or a person who makes less than we do. A person with other problems?
Addiction is not a simple problem to cure either. The physical dependence is pretty easy to get rid of the psychological dependence goes on for years and years. Her doctor recommended a psychiatrist to help her cope with her emotions, her addiction and the psychological root causes (there can biological ones too) which was more expensive. I dont regret spending one dollar Archon. not one. But getting here, getting to 2 years clean and sober was a battle, and I was dedicated to winning it.

I know it sounds like Osleon, Saint and I are lecturing you, and maybe we are a bit. Its good that you've never needed to deal with this problem before, but I guess what we're trying to say is its not normal for addiction to be cured cold turkey. We know through experience that it takes a lot of hard work, faith and love to overcome an addiction. Sometimes that isnt even enough and you need to learn when to let go.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 08:56:06 PM by ElJeffe »
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Re: Addiction, because its too big a topic ...
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2005, 09:05:42 PM »
Oselon said

Quote
Depending on the substance they are addicted to, unsupervised detox can be deadly.  Alcoholics can go into siezures that cause brain damage, Heroin withdrawl can cause stroke, etc...    
And Detox is only 1 step, most people forced through detox will go score IMMEDIATLY on release (I have seen it) addiction is deep seated in the body and mind and only a focused rehab effort has a chance of sending it into remission... there is no cure


Yes, these problems can occur when a person is trying to kick an addiction.  A person who lifts a heavy object can get a hernia, it doesn't mean there is no way to lift heavy objects.  Just because these problems are possible does not make them a majority case.

I would agree that there is no cure for addiction, just like there is no cure for any other mental disease--there is a cure for the physical aspects of addiction.  It is the mental connection that keeps a person addicted.  A person with Schizophrenia is never cured, but that person can still live without the effects of Schizophrenia for the rest of their life after treatment or even without treatment.  Addiction is the same way, it can be fought and the battle can be won.  It can't be won if the person who is addicted to alcohol thinks he or she can go back to drinking socially--the addiction will come back out.

If there were no solution for addiction, how come there are people all over the world who have fought and won against substance abuse?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 09:09:41 PM by GorgontheWonderCow »
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Re: Addiction, because its too big a topic ...
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2005, 09:13:45 PM »
MDJ, I understand what you are telling me, and I never meant to imply that it was an easy thing to deal with. I don't want to be portrayed as the idiot who said something that was out of line, and then immediately realizes how stupid it was, because that was not my intention at all, and I was being careful about what I said, because I had picked up small hints about your, and your wife's, situation. I don't think I implied that someone who deals with an addiction is of lesser intelligence, or that they don't have willpower, and if I did, I apologize. I was merely observing that it is possible to find a way to cope or get away from any situation, including an addiction, and I don't think that standing by that means that I am acting out of naivete in regard to addictions.
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Re: Addiction, because its too big a topic ...
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2005, 09:30:09 PM »
again while it is indeed possible, a lot of people dont have the same tools as you or I.
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Re: Addiction, because its too big a topic ...
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2005, 10:59:10 PM »
I guess I will chime in here. I work with people who are trying to overcome addictions (alchoholics, smoking, cutting, sex addicts, eating disorders, obsessive compulsives, and a host of other stuff). I don't really think you can understand the extent of addiction until you see someone be completely destroyed by it.

To most psychologists classify an addiction as being a destructive activity or behavior repeated over time that severely restricts the individuals agency. It may not be entirely true to say thay an addict has no choice, but for most part this is the case.

When treating an addiction, I have never seen a therapist tell an addict to just stop the addictive behavior. It just doesn't work that way for a real addiction.

Every therapist I have worked with attacks an addiction by focusing on underlying problems that have led to the addiction. Mostly this means focusing on thoughts and feelings that have led to the addiction. Oftens it means resolving other issues that face the client that he or she may or may not having any control over.

To tie into the other thread a little, I will use sex addiction as an example. Sex addiction is a rapidly growing problem throughout the world, but largely in North America and Europe. It is characterized by using sexual activity to numb oneself to everyday problems. Often sex addicts face health risks and physical abuse. Most prostitutes, porn stars, and sex offenders are considered to be sex addicts by the mental health profession.

Now treating sexual addictions has several problems. The first being that sex addicts just can't leave behind sex forever. Sex is suppose to be part of a healthy adult life, however it can also be easily misused. So the treatment involves the client learning to have healthy relationships. This can be very challenging in that many of the individuals have never had a healthy relationship. The vast majority of these people were abused as children, which is how they learned to have unhealthy relationships.

The initial steps are almost identical to the steps taken in the recovery of other addictions. That is, the understanding and control of one's own thoughts and feelings. Addicts have something that they misunderstand about themselves or the world around them that is causing them to engage in hurtful behavior. So it is the job of the therapist to help the client see things as they really are, or at least how they could be.

So it comes done to taking control of one thoughts and feelings, then taking actions to reverse the hurtful behavior. Some manage to do this and some do not. The deeper involved the individual is in their addiction, the harder it is to help them and for them to help themself. When you hear a a cutting addict talk about how it's perfectly harmless and normal to slash open one's wrist and that everyone should try it, then you kind of understand how bad it gets.

Unfortunately, the mental health system in developed countries are swamped. And many addicts won't seek help or even see that they have a problem, and often surround themselves with similar people who encourage their negative behavior.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 11:01:35 PM by 42 »
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Re: Addiction, because its too big a topic ...
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2005, 11:03:01 PM »
The problem, Gorgon and Archon, is not that any of us disagree that it's a possibility, it's that it often isn't a reasonable possibility to expect someone to live through. and to say they're a failure because they didn't overcome this beast isn't a fair assessment.  

Note: I'm not saying you said they would be a failure. I just think it appears that you don't appreciate the magnitude of the difficulty. I have an addiction I keep trying to beat, and every time I slip a little, I get depressed (which is also probably an addiction). I have had counseling and medication for it. I have extensive family support, and it's STILL taking years to beat it. Imagine what it would be like if somone had nothing like the access to counseling and the support structure I have. It is an exaggeration to call it an impossibility to overcome that, but not a very large one at all. We're talking in the realm of miracles here.

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Re: Addiction, because its too big a topic ...
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2005, 01:38:42 AM »
This isn't in exact response to anything anyone in particular has said. I'm not disagreeing with anything specific, just saying how I see the issue.

When you're on the outside, everything is so much clearer. To explain: I have an addiction. It has caused me some very serious problems, and I'm still getting over it (or perhaps not actually getting rid of it but finding better responses to deeper issues i have). My point here is that when you have an addiction, it's very difficult to see exactly what's going on - it's very difficult to a) recognise what you're doing as an addiction b) see what the causes are and c) actually realise it's unsafe and you need help. Now, the degree to which I have this addiction, is, compared to some cases of which I've heard, or of some people I know, extremely mild. I can't even imagine anyone with a very serious case of what I have/had being able to see on their own that there was a problem with what they were doing. It took me months to recognise it myself, and I had to be talked into it by friends. And, again, my case is actually quite mild.  

As 42 wrote:
Quote
The deeper involved the individual is in their addiction, the harder it is to help them and for them to help themself. When you hear a a cutting addict talk about how it's perfectly harmless and normal to slash open one's wrist and that everyone should try it, then you kind of understand how bad it gets.


Basically, it's hard enough shaking an addiction when you have support and help in every possible way. Trying to get past an addiction when you are alone *is* coming close to impossible. Alone, or surrounded by people who have similar behaviours to your own, it's very hard to see that you have a problem at all, let alone begin to treat it.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 01:42:24 AM by Master_Gopher »

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Addiction, because its too big a topic ...
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2005, 01:46:57 AM »
From the healthy persons perspective, its even hard to admit that the person you know and love has an addiction in the first place. Thats why a lot of loved ones become enablers. I bought my wife drinks for months, because I tried to convince myself she could handle it. Then I realized she was drinking a magnum of wine ( 1.5 litres or two fifths of a gallon) before going to work in the morning. One day I came home and discovered that she had drunk an entire fifth of rum. Still I did nothing untill one day when she passed out in my car on the way to her parents house. The thing is I loved her and I had every indication that there was a problem, but I didnt do anything about it untill It got so bad it couldnt be ignored.  
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 01:47:22 AM by ElJeffe »
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Re: Addiction, because its too big a topic ...
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2005, 03:34:11 AM »
Addiction is a scary, scary thing, mostly I think because it takes away your own ability to be in control of your life and to have healthy relationships.  My dad is an alcoholic and was addicted to drugs for the first 13 years of my life.  I learned first hand what substance addiction does to families and relationships, which is knowlege I almost wish I didn't have.  Since then I've watched several friends struggle with other addictions--pornography, larceny, self-loathing...

I've learned two things.  One is that I never want to find myself judging anyone who's dealing with an addiction, because sometimes people are in control of their actions, but other times they've yeilded that control, and it can be near impossible to get back.  It certainly doesn't come back overnight.  At some point in time that person made a choice, but once they come under the power of that addiction they may not be at a place where they are choosing anymore.  You can't always just choose to be different, even if you want to, even if you're willing to admit you have a problem.  Change takes lots and lots of work, and even after all that work some people still can't shake the addiction, especially when they can't avoid tempting situations because they are a part of everyday life.  

The other thing I've learned is that though it's a long hard slow aggravating process, it is possible to overcome.  Call it the fighter in me, but I do believe that addiction can be beaten.  I believe that it's possible to take back control, and to overcome.  My dad hasn't had a drink in ten years.  Did it fix all the problems in our family?  Heck no.  But are things better than they were?  Yes.  

Also I think it's interesting that some addictions take forms that seem harmless.  Self-loathing, for example, is hard to recognize and treat because it doesn't involve any overt socially deviant behaviors.  This doesn't make the addiction less scary, or easier to deal with.  It also doesn't make it any less real.
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Re: Addiction, because its too big a topic ...
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2005, 06:23:34 AM »
Perhaps I *should* treat my self-loathing more as an addiction, and I might deal with it better.

The control issue is interesting. It's a major cause of self-harm, and some drug use  - because instead of being affected by whatever life or other people throw at them, the person is in control of the pain. Of course, that's not a healthy aspect of your life to vent your need for control onto. And by the time it's a major addiction, the control aspect can be totally gone - the very nature of an addiction means a lack of control.

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Re: Addiction, because its too big a topic ...
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2005, 06:43:15 AM »
I quit smoking like 7 weeks ago cold turkey, no help, and I'm around smokers all the time.  But I'm just studly like that. 8)
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