Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Writing Group => Topic started by: EUOL on December 17, 2004, 05:27:03 PM
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reference: http://www.timewastersguide.com/view.php?id=929
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That article/rant makes no sense.
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Do you think it's always arrogance? Because I think maybe sometimes its just hope. You don't necessarily think you're better than the next person, but you don't care, and you hope that maybe somebody else will.
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Personally, I'd rather think of it as confidence. You can have a confidence in your abilities while still worrying that they're good enough. Can't you? I feel that way all the time, as an editor and in a lot of other parts of my life.
But to each his own. If thinking you're arrogant is what helps you work harder, great. But you can't let that spill over into your relationships with other people.
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I really agree with EUOL on this one. You can ask many of my friends, or my enemies for that matter and they will tell you that I am arrogant. You could say that is a coincidence, but I dont really think so. MF forwarded the idea that it was hope, which I guess it could be, but that hope is usually based on something, and that something is the belief that you can write well enough to get paid a lot of money to do so. Without this base, hope will dissipate much more quickly.
Stacer, what you are describing just seems to be a nicer way to say the same thing.
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Well, I consider myself a nice person.
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I guess I see arrogance as thinking that the world and everyone in it owes you somehow just because you exist.
I don't think that is what EUOL is talking about.
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No, I see people like that as being leeches. People who are arrogant are people who are good at something and they know that they are good at something. Or they arent good at something, and they still know that they are good at it.
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ar·ro·gant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-gnt)
adj.
Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others: an arrogant contempt for the weak. See Synonyms at proud.
arrogant
adj : having or showing feelings of unwarranted importance out of overbearing pride; "an arrogant official"; "arrogant claims"; "chesty as a peacock" [syn: chesty, self-important]
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So, I would guess it would depend on how proud you are. I go for humility, myself. (She says proudly.)
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I still dont think that that means you think that everyone else owes you something. You can assert that you are better than other people, and still want to make your own way, if only because you think that other people would mess it up.
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I really think that you have to be arrogant, just as it's defined by Stacer's post.
You have to believe that your work is superior to others. Now, I say these things just a bit tongue in cheek--kind of like Oscar Wilde referred to writing fiction as 'lying.' However, there's a root of truth in the fact that I think in order to make it in this business, you really have something more than simple 'confidence.' You have to believe that people should PAY YOU MONEY to tell them stories.
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I don't think you have to be arrogant to believe that people should pay you money to do things like tell stories.
I see it more as being supremely confident, but not "overbearing" or whatever. It's an exchange of goods/skills just like any profession.
I can see someone needing to be a bit arrogant to be a writer in a culture that thinks entertainment is useless, in the sense that stories aren't vital to one's daily sustenance, but in any culture that thrives on entertainment and information, storytellers are a vital part of the community. To *be* a community, stories must exist and be shared.
Is it just that an author has to think they're good enough to get published over all the other people trying to get published? How is that different from a person trying to get established in any other profession?
I think people should pay me very good money to help them fix their stories so that they are publishable, but I don't think that's arrogant. I believe that I should get hired as an editor, and that people who don't hire me are missing out, yet I continue to strive to improve my skills and make myself a better editor at the same time.
I don't get every job I apply for (though of course I think that I should get a job that I apply for--I wouldn't have applied if I didn't think I could do an excellent job), but I keep trying. I know that I'm good at what I do, and I know that if I keep trying I'll have success. But again, I think that's just confidence in myself and the effort I've put into my chosen field, not arrogance.
By the way, hi everyone! I've been gone lately because I got a new job. :)
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Yeah, that's what I meant, Brenna. I see your point, EUOL, but I still think there's something to be said for humble confidence.
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The difference is that with arrogance, you believe that you can do it better than anyone else, whereas with confidence, you believe you can do it well. When you are arrogant, you know that nobody else can write like you can, which makes you confident that you are unlike anyone else. There are a lot of good writers out there, so you can't just be confident that you are good, because so are they. You have to know that you are better, which is arrogant.
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I completely disagree. If I could do something better than anyone else in the world, and I knew it, that wouldn't make me arrogant. I'd be arrogant if I thought that doing that thing better made me a better person that them, or if I were cruel to them for it...like the "contempt for the weak" part of the definition. It's the sense of entitlement that makes a person arrogant, not the act of trying to do something you're good at. The confidence (or whatever you want to call it) that I might be the best for a job doesn't make me arrogant unless I take it to the next level and think that because of it I have more value.
That's what I think, anyway.
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I agree with Fish, in that I don't believe talent, ability, or skill ever justifies cruelty to other people.
Course, I also take a very idealistic view that people who come into this world with handicaps and dissablities are just a valued as those with talents and gifts.
A confident person just isn't concerned about how much better or worse the next person is. And when you think about, most the time we just don't have a good reason to think that way. Unless you give in to your fears and insecuries.
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Hmm. I suspect that those who have disabilities or hardships in their lives have their own talents and gifts that, while they may be different from those of "normal" people (whatever that means), are just as necessary and valuable, if not more so. I mean, if we are sent into the world equipped with everything we need to deal with what we face here, then it's hard to say that people with problems don't have anything to offer.
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Well, I don't think anyone doesn't have problems. Hence, I find arrogance to just be a sign of ingratitude and selfishness.
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Well, I don't think anyone doesn't have problems. Hence, I find arrogance to just be a sign of ingratitude and selfishness.
I'm not sure I follow you here. Assuming a person doesnt believe in a god, then who are they to be grateful to?
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Well, yeah, everyone has problems. I meant...actually, I don't know what I meant, but I'm sure I meant something.
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yeah, I really chafe at the arrogance word
Probably because I don't like my personal failings pointed out :)
But also because of the "overbearing" part.
And also, because I dont' see it as all that different from any other occupation. Everytime you send your resume somewhere you're saying "I'm better than your other options. You should take me."
It's significantly harder to do that with writing than many other jobs, because you invest so much of yourself into it, but it's not different in any fundamental way, only in degree.
However, I am arrogent. I watch TV and it constantly crosses my mind how I could, without trying, write better scripts or commercials or even theme music than what I"m seeing, and much of that because it only takes the rudimentary composition talent and literacy of a babboon to improve upon what I'm seeing. That is arrogence, I'll admit, and I am possessed of it.
I don't think it's a pre-req though.
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I think you hit on my reasons, SE. First off, realize that I'm using hyperbole to make my point. However, I really think authors need to understand some things that make writing--or other careers in the arts--different from your standard job.
It is a matter of degree. However, it's a severe matter of degree. Ask yourself this regarding other positions: Can someone else do the job? My roommate Earl is very valuable to his company. He writes code, and makes their products work. However, can someone else do his job? Yes. There are probably lots of people who can do the job as well as he does. That doesn't make him less valuable, but it does make a big difference to the application process.
Writing is different. I sincerely believe that nobody else can write these books. I offer something that NOBODY in the world besides myself can offer. I think this is part of an essential trait an author must have to be successful commercially.
There are around 300 million people in the US. I believe I write better fantasy books than about a half dozen of them. That's a pretty big 'difference of degree.'
I talk about the value of arrogance because I know what it's like to be repeatedly faced by statistics regarding publication, as well as rejection letters. To get a regular job, confidence is necessary. To succeed in this field, I think your confidence needs to be as disproportionately large as your chances of failure when compared to a different job.
This means arrogance. I use the word flippantly, kind of like Oscar Wilde used 'lying' in his famous treaties. However, I think there's an element of truth to it. If you look at the statistical chances of your getting published, it takes reckless, even foolish, levels of confidence to keep going. This is how I define arrogance--confidence beyond what is logical, right, or even normal.
Plus, I just like to argue.
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There are around 300 million people in the US. I believe I write better fantasy books than about a half dozen of them.
If you look at the statistical chances of your getting published, it takes reckless, even foolish, levels of confidence to keep going. This is how I define arrogance--confidence beyond what is logical, right, or even normal.
Plus, I just like to argue.
Umm, I hope you write better fantasy books than a few more that just a mere half dozen of the people in the US. Otherwise, I'm not investing 25 dollars in your book. ;D
But I still don't think you need arrogance to face those kinds of statistical odds. I think a special blend of insanity and pure masochism should do the trick just as well. At least, that's what I'm banking on. Get back to me in 30 years and maybe I'll concede the point.
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Umm, I hope you write better fantasy books than a few more that just a mere half dozen of the people in the US. Otherwise, I'm not investing 25 dollars in your book. ;D
My thoughts exactly.