Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Reading Excuses => Topic started by: maxonennis on December 12, 2008, 08:00:41 PM
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I thought it would be a good idea to have a thread where we could talk about what we are good and bad at in terms of writing. I think it helps with some self-realization being able to identify these, and being able to discus it with others is a way to find ways around your/mine problems. Not to mention learning/trying to emphasize what you’re good at.
Since I started the thread, I’ll go first. (See how that works?)
After I’d watched my third book fall flat on its face, I was at first a little depressed and decided to take a break from writing for a few weeks. It ended up being a few months. After the months had passed, I looked at the outline I had for my next story—I’d written it during my third book. I, naturally, wanted my fourth book to be better then the last three. So I took a painful amount of time to read over my other books to try and identify what was my biggest problem. It took no longer then a few pages of each story to tell me the answer: internal dialog.
In those first three books I’d used so much internal dialog that it deemphasized the external dialog, and made it sound redundant.
(For those of you who’ve read the chapter I’d submitted, the first page is a great representative of this problem.)
I am still looking for the answer for this problem. It sounds simple enough to jus cut back on internal dialog, but it’s hard for me. Especially when I don’t talk so much, and the majority of what I say is scaled down bits of dialog that goes on inside my head.
In terms of strengths, I would like to think that characters are my strength, but that’s just my ego talking. I think my real strength lies in descriptions. I have a knack for, if I take the time, making a scene vivid and feel real. As good as that may be, too much description takes away from the rest of the story. I’ve yet to find a balance for this “skill” either.
I’d like to hear from all of you about this as well.
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I tend to be overly wordy in my writing. Not to the piont of whole paragraphs or pages that are unnecessary, but definitely in first draft form my writing is a lot less tight than it could be. (Dialogue tags are one, though not the only, example. I use them way more than necessary if I let myself, and have lately tried to cut back on them a lot.)
I also have a tendency to tell the reader more than they need to know, which is a problem in subtler stories. Because I know I do this, when I write stories that need to be a bit more subtle I overcompensate, and usually end up being too obscure.
I also suck hardcore at plot. Generally speaking, whatever plot is external to the main characters I happen to be working with is very hard for me to get right. I'm just not good at it.
Edit: World building takes me a long time, and I don't feel I'm as good as it as I should be for the time I spend on it. Also, generally speaking, it takes me forever to write anything.
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Why does this sound like a 12-step program...?
Given that I write screenplays, the first strength I'll mention is my research. I get frustrated by films that involve a particular subject, but then horribly dumb it down for a wide audience. I think this insults the intelligence of the audience. I also think it is possible to refer to things the audience may not be familiar with, but if it is well written they can still understand the conflict and characters. Therefore I do copious research so that if I include some trivia I know it is correct, or if I create a fiction I know it is plausible.
Next, I make a lot of obscure references so that those few who might catch it will find it nifty.
Last, I've worked really hard to get my dialogue to flow well. It still ain't perfect, but it's pretty good.
Weaknesses? I really have to admit to these?
Okay, first I'm a pathetically slow writer. Yes, the research will slow things down a bit, but that can also act as a distraction. And I tend to agonize of each and every word. This is why I force myself to hand write the first draft of any scene. Screen composing allows me to get fixated on formatting, which is a big thing in screen plays. Also, screen composing places me too near the internet, which allows for further distractions.
Next, I make a lot of obscure references such that only a twisted brain like mine could catch a fraction of them.
Lastly, I have a bad habit of losing interest in a story before it is finished and beginning to plot the next installment. This is why I ended up writing story #5 before I wrote #4 because #5 wouldn't get out of my brain. Haven't found a solution to this yet.
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I think sometimes it helps to write whatever's in your brain. As long as you're capable of coming back to the other piece, anyway. And as long as it doesn't interfere with whatever deadlines as contracted writers we'll all have some day, because we're brilliant.
Actually... add "pathetically slow writer" to my list, too. I have no excuse, really.
Karl, have you ever read Guy Gavriel Kay's books? It's not quite the same as what you're doing, I don't think, and he writes fiction (though he got his start in radio plays and is writing screen adaptations for a couple of his books now) - but he still makes fantastic use of research in all of his books. Not to mention he's just a fabulous writer.
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Actually... add "pathetically slow writer" to my list, too. I have no excuse, really.
shut up. just shut up. we know your secret. :D
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My strengths and weaknesses both come from my background as a print journalism major. I tend to write hard news stories using the classic inverted pyramid style and bare-bones descriptions. This does not work well when I'm writing fiction and need more detail in my stories. As a result I'm self-conscious about putting in details that might make the story too wordy.
My other problem is that I work well under pressure. Journalism is all about deadlines, If I don't have a deadline, I'm not writing. This writing group solves that problem for me (thanks guys).
My strength comes from one of the five principles of journalism "conflict." Hearing the WE group talk about it made me happy. I can do conflict. It's what brought me to journalism in the first place.
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I am an incredibly fast typer...that being said, I am an incredibly slow writer (Just like Karl and Raethe). I don't sit and re-write paragraphs over and over again, but I do sit and try to type out the very best sentence each time. That usually doesn't happen and I end up wasting 10 minutes on one line.
I tend to fail to add description to a lot of the scenes that I am writing on. I can see it in my head and so I just go for the dialog and end up forgetting to describe the essential elements in order to help the reader visualize what I am trying to portray.
I also don't read as much as I should. I think this is valuable in a writer, because you can draw a lot of elements into your own style that will benefit your work. I love to read, but lately writing has killed that habit and created a new one that feeds itself upon my fragile time and brain. ;D
All this self disclosing is depressing me. ;)
Another thing, I know I need help on structuring my paragraphs and sentences.
I need a Pepsi and warm blanket...
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:(
They tell me to shut up...
What's the secret, incidentally? You seem to know more than I do.
I should probably add "world building" to the list. It's not that I can't do it, exactly, but it takes me a long time. Way longer than it should.
Man, this list is starting to depress me.
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Talk about depressing, I tried to think up a strength and came up with nothing. ???
Of course that was why I joined this group, to learn my strengths and weaknesses. :(
I think I'm gonna veg in front of the TV now, with ice cream, that makes everything better. :-[
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:(
They tell me to shut up...
What's the secret, incidentally? You seem to know more than I do.
Don't act all innocent, miss 25k in 24 hours.
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Haha. That was a freak event. I more than doubled the size of my current ms during NaNo. The manuscript that I've been working on for three and a half years. :P
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That was a freak event.
That's what they all say. :P
I'll gladly join the ranks of the slow writers. In my case it's made worse through my brilliant idea of writing the first draft by hand. That feels far too much like work, and once I'm done with the draft I probably won't try that again. Ever. Unless the result should turn out to be a work of literary genius, of course.
Descriptions are another problem, like M I tend to be, uh, economical with that kind of thing.
As to strengths, I like to believe I can write fairly good action scenes. Which is, naturally, of no use whatsoever for my current project. ::)
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Huh...weaknesses. I'll have to think about that.
Who am I kidding? Weaknesses? What weaknesses? I'm good at everything.
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Reaves, do we need to go back to your critique thread and go over a few things? Yeah, I thought not.
wcarter4, have you ever tried to write an Epistolary novel?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistolary_novel
The original Dracula and Phantom of the Opera are both told in this style. It is out of fashion right now, but may play to your strengths.
And for everyone who mentioned lack of detail in their stories: my first hand-written drafts tend to be spartan and somewhat chaotic (script #4 is currently just a mangle of notes and half scenes). When I go through the first typed draft I tend to put in a lot of the details that I forgot to add in the frenzied hand-written draft. Thereby just the act of typing becomes my first real revision of the text. So let that first draft be as scattered and frantic as it needs to be, but be sure to go back through the second time and fill in the cracks.
Oh, and Raethe-of-Xmas-Current/SilkNSnow/YoSafBrig, quit stealing my answers!!
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I once tried my hand at a modified Epistolary in a fanfiction I wrote as a matter of fact. The problem is, more often than not they are down right boring for "modern" readers. It can become confusing to keep up with who is saying/doing what. I might try to write an Epistolary in the future, but I think I need to refine my style first.
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I'll gladly join the ranks of the slow writers. In my case it's made worse through my brilliant idea of writing the first draft by hand. That feels far too much like work, and once I'm done with the draft I probably won't try that again. Ever. Unless the result should turn out to be a work of literary genius, of course.
I'd tried to write by hand before. It feels like five times the amount of work typing is to me. I will never try doing that again. Once was enough.
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:( But Karl, I like your answers!
I usually write by hand, actually - the last week of NaNo was the first time I tried writing something directly on the computer screen. It's good to know that I can resort to the screen when I need to get something done fast (erm, for me, at least) but I think I still prefer writing by hand...
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Isac Asimov was a speed typist. Clive Barker is a hand writer. There is no right answer. Just whatever works best for the individual writer.
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Weakness: Buying books I can't afford.
I decided I'd like a copy of Asimov's Annotated Paradise Lost . Anyone got $504.00 they can loan me for a used copy? Apparently they didn't print too many of these, and that's the cheapest price. How about taking up a collection for me?!?
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Thereby just the act of typing becomes my first real revision of the text.
That's exactly the line of thought that led to me writing by hand. But like I said: work. :-\
I guess I'll try typing the next novel, see how that goes, and then try to draw some clever conclusions.
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I would agree with Karl about the book buying part, but he won't let me steal his answers anymore , so I guess I won't.
Yeah, I feel the same way about handwriting - I type my stuff out usually a chapter at a time, and that lets me do some basic line editing and spot any problems I didn't see while in the midst of actually writing it.
It's also easier to engage with paper and pencil, I find, which makes for snappier prose. It's also less easy to edit on paper (way too easy to do on a screen), nevermind other distractions like Teh Interwebs.
Plus, it's nice to do something that doesn't involve staring at a screen. I do way too much of that as it is :P
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I think a strength of mine is the ability to make believable characters. While their accents may be horrible, I think I did a good job in making them all individuals.
Another is that I tend to use colloquialisms fairly well.
One thing that I'm struggling with though is multiple plot lines. What they should be doing, how they should be doing it, and how it can all be tied together in a believable and concise manner.
Way too many clichés. It’s something that just seems to pop up every so often. I often back track to get rid of them, especially on the computer, but this at times leaves holes that you could drive through in the plot that have to be worked out.
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Wow... seems some people are much more open about their weaknesses, and don't praise themselves enough for their strengths...
So, to join in with that...
Strengths: I'm an ideas person sometimes. Like, I'll have an idea in my head, or an opening line, and then begin to work around that. So generally have about 4 ideas bobbing around in my mind to work with.
Weaknesses: I write the first chapter/scene/whatever, re-read it, hate it, and refuse to carry on. Basically "I suck and I'm a horrible writer". Another one is that I don't really think about what I'm writing... just write it. Same goes for talking in general, I guess.
Another weakness is structure... I write really short paragraphs... so they're almost like bullet points.
Oh, and I tell.... instead of show.
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Let's see... hmmm.
For me, my major weakness is character development. I have the most difficulty with grabbing a personality and making it seem perfectly real. I have a nasty tendency to tell what a character is like, rather than showing it. Characters are difficult on every level for me.
I know my strengths quite acutely, though. Plot is my biggest strength. These elements come to me early in the creative process, and though they often change during the evolution of a given story, I do have a knack for plot elements. Of course, since you haven't read my novel completely, maybe I just think I have a knack for plot and I really don't.
Another one of my strengths are my magic systems. They are extremely rule-based, and I apply rigor to them on as many levels as I can conceive. My magic systems are very developed in this manner. If I can't think of a solution to a particular problem, I will stress about it for a long while. When I figure out the answer, it is usually fantastic. Also, I always make sure that the plot and setting (and characters, too) are integrated with the magic system. Usually, the magic system precedes any other element.
My greatest weakness besides character development is revision-itis. I have never gotten past 30,000 words in my novel. Around that point, I realize that I've done some terrible error on some level (the most recent was character-related) and I needed to rewrite so I got the sequence of events correctly. I've never truly left what I considered the beginning.
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"I suck and I'm a horrible writer"
Aren't we all? ;D
You might want to try some outlining before you start writing (and I mean outlining scene by scene, beginning to end), and then forbid yourself to work on anything else till at least your first draft is done, no matter how horrible it seems to be. In my case it helped, I think.
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Outlining would probably be a good idea... I have the tendency to have an overview of where I want things to go... but then hate the first bit, and lose motivation to go back to the rest (let's see how long it takes before I take my name off the email submissions due to hating the stuff I'm writing lol).
But yeah, outlining and actually planning stuff instead of just diving right into it would probably be the best thing to do... Thanks :)
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Oh, and on another note------- I have trouble with keeping my 'point of view' character.
Admittedly, it's not something I understand very well yet... so any advice would be appreciated. You'll probably see what i mean after tomorrow's submission... heh.
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Hayley, what I do when starting a new story is first write the first scene. I usually have an idea for a novel, but writing that first scene puts all the pieces into place in my head. I then stop and outline, and finally go back and finish the story.
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Yeah, can definitely see where you're coming from. Because generally, the first scene is sort of there in your head, but then if you don't write it down there and then, you forget it.... but if it's written, you can see where it's going to go next a bit easier?
.....Or something...
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I usually have a first scene figured out and then a last scene, so at least I know where I'm headed. Much of the rest if figuring out how to get from one to the other. I'm sort of a discovery writer in reverse. I have the effect where I need to find the cause.
And if you have trouble with viewpoint, try to write a short story from just one person's perspective. Have everything that is heard, felt, smelled, etc. be from that one person's experience of a scene. The only dialogue is things that are said in the MC's presence. Keep all internal thoughts solely from that one person. After you complete this one story, start another that has two characters that you alternate between.
In my Spectre series, the first two scripts are from a single character's POV. It is only in the third story where I finally allowed myself a 'cut away' where a scene occurs occurs outside my MC's POV. I don't think I will every get to the point of having Robert Jordan numbers of characters with as many viewpoints.
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HayleyRH everyone is giving great advise, but also remember--and it is something I have to tell myself constantly--this is only your first draft. It won't and doesn't have to be great and good, these are just your ideas first coming out of your head into the light of day. Presiver and push past your initial... revulsion, and you will find that it gets better on is own. Your own story will draw you in. You have an idea for a story where most people would never even think to actually write it down, so you already have something special. Be brave, tough it out, and you will see something extraordinary.
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HayleyRH everyone is giving great advise, but also remember--and it is something I have to tell myself constantly--this is only your first draft. It won't and doesn't have to be great and good, these are just your ideas first coming out of your head into the light of day. Presiver and push past your initial... revulsion, and you will find that it gets better on is own. Your own story will draw you in. You have an idea for a story where most people would never even think to actually write it down, so you already have something special. Be brave, tough it out, and you will see something extraordinary.
Oh, certainly. About two thrids of my really good plot outlines make it to the final draft for me. If I want to change something, I go ahead and change it from the time the idea pops into my head. I don't go back and change things until I've finished my first draft.
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Yeah, don't worry if you don't like your first scene. I have heard of several writers who write the first scene, finish the book, and then have to completely rewrite that first scene. Or you might add a prologue.
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Definitely. I probably go through at least 3-5 drafts on any given story.
Come to think of it, didn't Sanderson post about six different drafts or something of Warbreaker?
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Sanderson also mentioned that it was his tenth draft of Elantris that went to print. And also that he often scratches the first three chapters.
My strength is probably plotting and ideas. I can oversee complex structures and have them make sense. That and my mind is constantly spilling out ideas and random associations.
My weakness sort of derives from that, I am also pretty chaotic and will set of on some brainwave and forget whatever it was I was working on, or who I was talking to. Beside that I have trouble doing internal dialogue. I either avoid it or end up on some rant about all the different doubts the character has at that point.
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Strengths: Plot, dialogue, pacing, story
Weaknesses: Tension, writing with emotion
It really helps to be in a writing group with folks whose writing strengths are your weaknesses. It's helped me anyway.
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Yeah, there is a difference between writting about emotions, which is simple but not very useful, and writing with emotions. And trying to write it in such a way that it evokes pathos in the reader is terribly elusive. I think I've only managed it once or twice in all of my works.
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The secret to writing with emotions is to be a complete jerk. To really capture emotion in a story is to master the art of conflict. Think of the worst things you can do to the character and then make them suffer enjoy it, you are their god! Once you have done that, show what they do, don't spend time saying "Johnny was very sad" show the character's actions. In fact don't use the words for emotions in your writing. "Johnny slammed his fist into the wall until it bled..." is much better.
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Sometimes that works well, but I think often writers carry it to far, never getting right to the meat of what the character is thinking and feeling. Part of that is probably because in movies, all you know about is what you see the character doing. In a movie, someone slamming their fist into a wall is a much better way to show anger or grief than having a "sad look."
BUT as a writer, you can do that. Your characters can be tormented by waves of grief and red rage without any outward physical sign. Actions are a very poignant way to express emotion...but don't be afraid to get into the character's head.