Timewaster's Guide Archive
Departments => Books => Topic started by: Mad Dr Jeffe on June 19, 2003, 03:23:31 PM
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Wow, I just don't know how someone could defend Joseph Mccarthy (of Red Scare fame) but somehow this person not only tries to do it, but she calls his villianization a myth of the American Liberal.
I don't know or care what your leanings are politically, Joe Mccarth was a bad man... he stood against everything our country symbolizes and he doesn't deserve to be venerated like some sort of political god.
Here's a quote..." Despite the left’s creation of a myth to defeat legitimate charges of treason, McCarthy had so badly stigmatized Communism, his victory survived him. In his brief fiery ride across the landscape, Joe McCarthy bought America another thirty years. For this, he sacrificed his life, his reputation, his name. The left cut down a brave man, but not before the American people heard the truth."
Why she's wrong... The left had nothing to do with McCarthys fall... conservative elements of the US Army did... and when you accuse top Generals in the Army of being Communists you can be sure you'd better be right. Shortly after his accusations the smack came down and the "unamerican trials stopped"
McCarth tore this country apart with his witch hunt and fostered a deep distrust in the government that continues to this day. Drunk with power he kept coming and coming untill his lies were undone one by one. But the best part is that I don't have to work hard to defend my position since the McCarthy papers were opened this year. They show McCarthy as a bellicose idiotic bully who was obsessed with his own self image and his power.
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The worst part about what this woman is saying is that she implies that it's ok to arrest someone and mess up their lives because they exercise their first amendment rights. what a stupid cow.
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I don't know why, but she reminds me of the people who said it was terrible that the Dixie chicks got blasted for their anti war stance.
And from what i know, McCarthy is a pratt. Not for what he did, but because every time i have a political discussion with my communist (not joking, he votes for the socialist workers alliance...) i am "Mccarthyist" and "carrying out a witchhunt".
Damn you McCarthy! /me shakes fist
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Are you part of a vast right wing conspiracy as well?
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I find my leanings to be more centerist lately (but leaning a little more to the left than the right) and am disturbed by the amount of bitter and fascist sounding rhetoric coming from a small minority of Right Wingers.
You know the talk, basically everyone who disagrees with their stupid insular views is a traitor to virtue morality and human decency in addition to being a traitor to the United States. This is an example of the idocy Coulter spews
"Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant. Fifty years of treason hasn’t slowed them down."
or this gem
"Why is the relative patriotism of the two parties the only issue that is out of bounds for discussion? Why can’t we ask: Who is more patriotic -- Democrats or Republicans? You could win that case in court. "
Hmm lets see
Prominant Democrats
Representative Richard Gephardt - Served his country in uniform, 1965-71
Representative David Bonior - Served his country in uniform, 1968-72
Senator Tom Daschle - Served his country in uniform, 1969-72
Former Vice President Al Gore - enlisted August 1969; sent to Vietnam January 1971 as an army journalist, assigned to the 20th Engineer Brigade headquartered at Bien Hoa, an airbase twenty miles northeast of Saigon. More facts about Gore's Service
Bob Kerrey... Democrat... Medal of Honor, Vietnam
Daniel Inouye... Democrat... Medal of Honor, World War Two
John Kerry... Democrat...Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat
Charles Rangel...Democrat... Bronze Star, Korea
Max Cleland... Democrat... Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam
Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) - U.S. Army, 1951-1953.
Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) - U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) - U.S. Army Ranger, 1971-1979.
Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) - served as a U.S. Army officer in World War II, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.
Rep. Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal. http://www.afji.com/mags/1997/Jan/VietVets.html
Ambassador "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Democratic congressman, Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit http://www.af.mil/news/Apr1997/n19970414_970430.html
Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: served in combat with the U.S. Army as a staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade; was wounded and received a Purple Heart. http://www.house.gov/mthompson/bio.html
Bill McBride, Democratic Candidate for Florida Governor - volunteered and served as a U.S. Marine in Vietnam; awarded Bronze Star with a combat "V."
Prominant Republicans
Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve. "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."
House Majority Whip Roy Blount - did not serve
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)
Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve
Rick Santorum, R-PA, third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve.
Former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. Served as President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East and met with Saddam Hussein twice in 1983 and 1984.
GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war."
VP Cheney - several deferments, the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service")
Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve; sought deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State
Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve.
Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve
Former President Ronald Reagan - due to poor eyesight, served in a noncombat role making movies for the Army in southern California during WWII. He later seems to have confused his role as an actor playing a tail gunner with the real thing.
So I don't get it how can someone ignore the facts and spew garbage about how their counterparts in the opposite side who fought and bled for this country are traitor to the American People.
A few years ago these guys would have been labled crackpots and morons but now they're getting radio shows and book deals.
There is no liberal conspiricy in Government..., and I sure dont see one in the media (FOX news anyone)
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I love how every side of any political debate insists they're rational and centerist.
Fox is certainly conservative, but hardly deserves the label of conspiracy any more than CNN does. And yes, most media outlets ARE more liberal than conservative.
I'm not contending most of your arguments here, though I noticed that you conveniently left out prominant Republicans who served honorably and Democrats who didn't. And yes, there's a healthy list for those too.
Of course this Coulter person is a whacko. But Jeff, heads up, you're more centrist than many, but you're firmly in the Democrat camp. who do you vote for? What party do you agree with most often?
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Yes Saint, i am a fully paid up member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (VRWC, membership fee $20,000 per annum). The resurrected Hitler complemented me on my good work downtrodding the poor.
And Jeffe, i do not know a lot of what you are talking about. Just because i like subject changes:
What do you think of the EU? I have noticed that you are a lot less anti - french than me or SE (not difficult i will grant).
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To me being far left or right is a bad thing and there are nuts on both sides. I figure they more or less balance themselfs out. I rarely agree with Ann Coulter, I find her to hostlile. Just like I find many far left people too hostile, like Al Frankin and Michal Moore. The far left/right people actualy do many a people a good service...They discust people and push more towords the center. Eric Alderman (who wrote What liberal bais in the media), who I also rarely agree with, had an intresting statment on Scarboury Country (MSNBC). he said, and I'm paraphraseing, that most reporters and editors are Liberal. But most of the network heads are conservitave(Rupert Murdoc is the only one I can think of). And his whole book is about how Conservativs domanate the media. Now it's well known that CNN is liberal, but they're not as bad as they where a few years ago when it was so biased it was painful to watch. This was the time that they passed notes to their ancor people (which you could actualy see them do on occasion) when they say something that Ted Turner didn't agree with. PBS is also very liberal. Yes Fox is conservative. What I don't get is how either side gets so hostle about this. Jeffe called it a "conspiercy" and crap like that. I can't get how, if some one dosen't see things the way you do that means they're "Natzis" or "commies" . Or entitles you to become immature and call people names. I actualy heard something on one of the news programs, I forget which but I think it was O'Riley, where a person was argueing that the right and left are in cahoots to totaly alienate as many people as possible, wanting low voter turnouts. That way it's easyer to get re-elected. I had a good laugh at that one, but sometimes it does seem that way.
Edit: Oh and Jeffe the reaction you got was esactly what Coulter wants. She's like Moore, they don't care if you agree with them or not. They just want to piss you off one way or another.
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Actually Spriggan, here in the UK, the far left IS communist. Not kidding.
The guys who go on the CND (Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament - Tony Blair once was imnportant in that organistation) marches and stuff believe fervently in communist ideals.
Go read some of Moonbats stuff in the Guardian. If he were to ever say that free market economics is as evil as nun rape, his readers would think he was going soft.
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I think you missed his point Entropy. I don't believe that Spriggan was saying that there were no Communists or Nazis out there. The fact that these ideologues EXIST is hard to deny. But in American politics at least, which is more or less what we're talking about, with McCarthy, Democans and Republicrats, , Coulter, et al, the number of extremists is actually very small proportionately.
It's like saying that Jerry Fallwell is extremist, therefore, all Christians are extremists. Or that Bo Grites is a whackjob, therefore all Mormons are whackjobs. America has a MUCH smaller base of Communists or Nazis, especially ones that have any sort of major/nationwide political influence or serious and realistic political hopes.
Frankly, in most free countries that don't practice the imprisonment of political opponents (on the books anyway), there's nothing legally wrong with being a communist. I certainly don't think someone is inherantly evil or sub-human because they are communist (though I confess I have feelings like that about the other extreme. However, if they're specifically a fan of Castro or Lenin, yeah, there's something wrong. But just as I can be a believer in democracy and not care for either of the USA's last two presidents, I don't see why you can't be communist and not care for Stalin or Mao
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Im sorry, looking back at my post I see that it came off as me saying Fox news was part of some vast conspiricy where I actually really meant that I would never consider FOX news Liberal by any standards. I wa using it as an example of a major news network being very conservative. Sorry about the Dems and Repubs thing, I actually left off the most prominant from either side because I was pretty sure people knew about Bob Dole, or George Bush SR or JFK or Bill Clinton and a few others. There are plenty of congressmen who served or didn't. I think the fact that they are in congress working with the legal process to improve our country shows that they are almost all patriots.
As to my feeling about france, well they are pretty touchy. I don't hate france or the french. Theres not much of a point. I dont blame them for having different views than us. I can't. They arn't us. I saw no reason for the French to be compelled to help us out any more than we would be compelled to help if they invaded Colombia under the Auspices of making Colombia safe for Democracy.
We just have different National Interests than the French do.
I don't like the EU because it means that Europe has finally gotten organized. And the inclusion of another Superblock of power just gives the United States someone to compete with. Sooner or later we'll be at war with Europe (hopefully later than sooner) because they want resources we do, or trade monies that we do. I don't however hate them for deciding to unify.
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eh, no biggie Jeffe. If I had been reading her book to I would have been annoyed and posted a rant here too. ;D
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War with united Europe huh? That's an interesting and not entirely implausible prospect. The question is whether the UK would be on our side or theirs.
But I don't think it would happen. Even if tensions between the US and EU became that harsh, I don't think it'd start WW3 without some other major catalyst other than just competing interests. After all, the US and the USSR never went directly against each other in open battle, and that was competing ideologies, not just competing economies. Though I reckon Tom Clancy or any decent SF writer could come up with an excuse for such a war.
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James Bond Vs the US?
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Don't forget austin powers and the new Bean spy flick guy. The US is screwed all we got is tom cruiz form MI and spy kids
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I thought they were from spain....
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don't know, never seen the movies. Just assumed they were american with spanish/hispanic roots.
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If the US knew what was good for it it would pour cash into mexico to bring them up to the US's Standard and influnce scoial change in south America with the goal of extending the US to the southern continent.
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I dunno which side the UK would take in US vs EU. Armageddon 2089 is a mecha roleplaying game that has that setup, might want to check out what it says.
My guess is neither. We would just do a switzerland, let everyone fight each other while we sip cognac and sell guns to everyone.
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I get the Impression that the brits might get big brother syndrome... (no one beats up my little brother but me!)
Plus Canada would be in it with us so....
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Ah yes, Canada. The United States subsiduary with the identity crisis. I am sure they would tip the tide, irregardless of any other factors. :)
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are you being sarcastic?
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Aw, man. I missed the bitter political discussion! That'll teach me for going out of town and letting everyone work out their differences in a peaceful way.
(Sigh. Even Sprig is being civil--and in a political discussion! How'd that happen?)
I think the EU's cool because I have a science fiction writer's mind. I want to see everything conglomerate so that the world can progress toward SF coolness.
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We have more than Tom Cruise. We've got Harrison Ford and half a dozen boring guys playing Tom Clancy characters.
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Notice how EUOL likes the EU when he takes a perspective that focuses upon the distant future, and when he does not actually have to be a part of it?
And don't forget, we get Harry Potter as well!
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Ok, then we get Yoda.
Which I guess means you get gandalf
which means we get the great American fantasy cahracters... which gives us... Allanon
Crap.
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Doesnt it also send us up the bomb?
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It also means we get Sauron.
So, in a battle between Sauron, Gandalf, James Bond, Harry Potter & Austin powers Vs Allanon, Yoda, Darth Vader, Tom Clancy generic heros #25 through #45 and Tom Cruise; who wins?
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Dont forget, Stallone Luke and Han and Chewie, and Indy, and Jack from big trouble in little China. Hey and we also get Jack nicholson as the Devil.... :) things are lookin up.
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We also get Al Pacino as the Devil. That's two devils to one Sauron, who's a sub-devil at best. Besides, we also get Atticus Finch, who's allegedly the best movie hero of all time. How can you stand up to that?
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We get Obi Wan Kinobi. Hes british!
We also have Voldermort... and the 4 gods of Chaos. Games Workshop is british! And we get Aslan.
But i suppose you get Paul Atridies from Dune. But we get captain picard, who comes complete with a starship!
Hum. Someone get me a list of British sci-fi and fantasy.
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You can have Picard, and we'll even let you have the ship, but if we're going by nationality then we get the whole crew and Picard is floating around in a useless ship.
Actually, if we go by nationality, Picard is French. We wouldn't mind having him, but do you really want to keep him?
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no no no. We're going by authors. Because otherwise you can claim any character published in your country. After all, Isn't Jackson an American? And he CONTROLS Gandalf and Sauron et al. Even if we go by actors, we still get most of the crew that laid the smack down on Sauron, so no worries.
But since it's by author, we get ALL the cast of Star Wars and Star Trek and several other SF shows. Also, Buffy, Superman, and most other Superheroes. Britain would eat it.
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If you're talking about Peter Jackson, then no, actually, he's a Kiwi. New Zealander through and through. Haven't you seen any of the Making Of specials? He talks in them, and it's definitely a New Zealand (or maybe Australian, I'm no expert) accent. Unless he's been naturalized, which I have no idea about.
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Yeah, he's a native New Zealander.
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No, don't watch them.
But he's obviously not a factor.
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Well, we get Rand and the Dark One, not to mention a fleet of annoying, conniving, manipulative Aie Sedai (or however you spell it.) Those folks might be growing a bit tedious to read about, but they're nothing to sniff about in a war.
Of course, if it did come to blows, the Japaneese would probably jump in. Hum. Gandalf vs Darth Vader vs Godzilla....
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Wasn't dave prowse, the guy who acted Darth Vadar, british? And since Qui Gonn was a scottish actor, that means that a disturbingly high proportion of jedi are, in fact, british. Add to this the fact that 300thousand people put "Jedi knight" as their religion, and i think i feel another "Real world..." thing coming on. Lets see... the Empire: overbearing, arrogant, stupid, cumbersome, with pathetic armies and questionable morals... who could that be? (Hint - they eat frogs)
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Watch this guys, this'll really piss Entropy off
I didn't know the British ate frogs....
*giggle*
most of the empire's officers, at least, have accents from the British Isles, which means that it doesn't matter how good your heroes are, since every single other person in your army pretty much sucks it.
Besides, the VOICE for Vader is definitely American. so we have as much claim. Plus we get Dooku, who while has the dumbest Jedi name ever, was able to take down Kenobi AND Skywalker at the same time. He was also able to fight Yoda to a standstill. We'll take him.
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also in episode 3 a different person is going to be vader
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Technically, Vader has been played by four people: the little kid, Hayden Christensen, James Earl Jones, and David Prowse. Only one is British, so we get Vader. You can keep the rest of the empire, who are probalby not worth the trouble (as has been mentioned).
The thing we have touched on but not really discussed, however, is that we already won. We have Indiana Jones, and I defy anyone to find a better hero. The man can do anything, and has more coolness points than the rest of these people put together. There's not much point figuring out who else is on your team, because once Indiana Jones gets into things I really think it's game over for everyone else.
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and not only that, we also have Han Solo1 I mean hello? And Superman when he's out of his wheelchair. Plus 75% of all the super heros and villains are American or live in an American city.
We mop the floor with you.
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I have to repeat SE's objection of earlier. We can't go by nationality of actors--that's too chaotic. Any movie with dubbing has different voice acting, at least. As has been mentioned, several different actors have played the same character. We have to go by nationality of the original author. You get everyone from Lord of the Rings, we get everyone from Star Wars. If you want to talk actors, then that's a completely different discussion.
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Ha speak of the devil. On Hannity & Combes (fox news) Ann Coulter is going to duke it out (as they said) with a liberal that hates her and her book. Will I watch? No but it is tempting to see two people that sicken me argue. Who needs fear factor when you've got this stuff. "Now for $1,000 you have to watch Anne Coulter and a die hard liberal argue for 10 minutes without jabing your eyes out or cutting your ears off."
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She makes me ill. Just as ill as Ted Kennedy would if I were confronted with his book.
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here's an intresting interview she had with O'Rilley. He got on her case for being to harsh/rude in the book and she laughed it off saying that the book is supposed to be funny. Anyway here it is if anyone is intersted:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,92756,00.html
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O'Reilley sure seems to tear up his guests on the show.
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(http://images.ucomics.com/comics/bo/2003/bo030803.gif)
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lol That would be an awsome celeberity death match.