Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: CopperEye on July 09, 2008, 09:53:08 PM
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The account of Vin receiving her earing and the sacrifice of her sister is one event that puzzles me.
From Reen's account, Vin's mom heard voices that told her to kill her sister and stick the earing in Vin's ear. When people hear voices in their heads (Vin, Zane, Marsh) it is because they have hemalurgy and Ruin does the talking. So does this mean that Vin's mom has hemalurgy?
I have a few theories, but none of them sit well.
1) Vin's mom has hemalurgy, she saw what happened when she got it and she passed it down to her daughter by instruction from Ruin.
2) Reen's account was incorrect. This was a complete set-up by the steel ministry to overthrow the obligators. They followed the prelan, saw that he didn't kill off the mistress, they gave Vin hemalurgy which drove the mom crazy seeing her other child be massacred. A big hole in this theory is hemalurgy != allomancy, but I like the idea of this being a complete setup by the Steel Ministry to overthrow the obligators. The Inquisitors were being guided by Ruin in what they thought was for the better good, but Ruin was setting up another hero of ages to gain freedom.
3) You don't have to have hemalurgy to be controlled by Ruin.
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i think we need more info on Vin's mom, although i definitely think that she was at the very least being influenced by Ruin.
Also i think that having hemalurgy does not mean you are being controlled. After all, Vin has a piercing (albeit a small one) and she is not being controlled to the extent of the Steel Inquisitors or Zane. I do think that having hemalurgy at the very least facilitates Ruinous communication.
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This theory seems very believable. I mean, the only other people we hear of hearing voices are Hemalurgists, and all of them hear the voice of Ruin. So why not Vin's mom. I agree with your theory very much on this.
I had made the connection that the piercing is what gave her the hemalurgy, but I had never thought of Vin's mom having been a Hemalurgist herself.
I'm not sure about the whole Steel Ministry thing though, that just seems a bit out of the way.
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Sorry for double posting, BUT I just read the prologue for HoA AND I think it gives more credence to your theory. This like right here :
The spike would need to pierce the man's body, passing through the heart, then be driven into the body of the Inquisitor tied below.
SO, it takes a hemalurgist to make a hemalurgist. The earing would have had to pierce through Vin, then also go into her mother's finger in order for Vin to have become a hemalurgist.
In my opinion, this theory is VERIFIED.[/color]
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Sorry for double posting, BUT I just read the prologue for HoA AND I think it gives more credence to your theory. This like right here :
The spike would need to pierce the man's body, passing through the heart, then be driven into the body of the Inquisitor tied below.
SO, it takes a hemalurgist to make a hemalurgist. The earing would have had to pierce through Vin, then also go into her mother's finger in order for Vin to have become a hemalurgist.
In my opinion, this theory is VERIFIED.[/color]
It depends on how you read the statement from the prologue. Who is being given hemalurgy? Is the keeper getting hemalurgy, or is he the sacrifice to give the inquisitor on bottom hemalurgy (or if he already has some hemalurgy he is getting more)? I'm not sure. I'm inclined to believe that the inquisitor is getting more hemalurgy. If this is the case, then the scenario with Vin is that her mom(under the direction of Ruin) pounded the earing through her sister's heart into Vin's body(possibly ear).
Under the second scenario, why is the sister killed if her mom just needs to pound the earing through vin and then poke herself with it? Granted, there could be more to hemalurgy than what is explained in the prologue.
I would like it if it did verify the theory that Vin's mom has hemalurgy, I don't think the prologue provides that evidence due to ambiguity.
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Yes, but through this and the way that we see Vin having Hemalurgy, my theory makes A LOT of sense, unless it all just happens to be coincidence.
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Yes, but through this and the way that we see Vin having Hemalurgy, my theory makes A LOT of sense, unless it all just happens to be coincidence.
I personally agree that Vin's mom has hemalurgy, but that brings up a whole host of other questions that don't sit well with me.
warning, random questions coming:
Why give an inconsequential skaa hemalurgy?
Who gave it to her? (Steel Inquisitor or genetics)
Would genetic hemalurgy allow Ruin to control someone, enough to sacrifice one of your kids? ( I think not)
So she needs to have some spikes in her to give Ruin that much control.
Therefore, the Steel Inquisitors (SI), under the control of Ruin, put spikes in Vin's mom to give her hemalurgy.
Did Ruin have that much control over the SI to make them do this? Put spike in a random skaa?
So my questions all point back to the SI, which goes back to my #2 theory that the SI were planning the downfall of the obligators through Vin's mom, but Ruin had different plans.
Or the easiest explanation is that depressed crazy people can be controlled by Ruin and that's why Vin's mom did what she did (#3 theory)
So there are my ramblings ;D
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Here's a question, did Reen kill their mother, or did he just run with Vin. Where is their mother now??
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If I remember correctly he SAYS he killer her, bu that doesn't mean he did, or that I remember correctly.
Also a note, she WAS sleeping with an Obligator. That could have some connection as to where she attained the Hemalurgy in the first place.
I'm beginning to think that Hemalurgy is NOT genetic, and there must be a sacrifice and a piercing that punches through you and then into another Hemalurgist.
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I'm beginning to think that Hemalurgy is NOT genetic, and there must be a sacrifice and a piercing that punches through you and then into another Hemalurgist.
I agree with you there. That's always been my personal opinion. It makes more sense, seeing as we don't have any examples of genetic hemalurgy, or if it's possible that we do, they also have a spike with a sacrifice. Vin is the only example that comes to mind, and she has her earring.
As a side note, does anyone know how Zane got his spike? I can't remember for the life of me.
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As a side note, does anyone know how Zane got his spike? I can't remember for the life of me.
The books never said.
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Yes, but through this and the way that we see Vin having Hemalurgy, my theory makes A LOT of sense, unless it all just happens to be coincidence.
I personally agree that Vin's mom has hemalurgy, but that brings up a whole host of other questions that don't sit well with me.
warning, random questions coming:
Why give an inconsequential skaa hemalurgy?
Who gave it to her? (Steel Inquisitor or genetics)
Would genetic hemalurgy allow Ruin to control someone, enough to sacrifice one of your kids? ( I think not)
So she needs to have some spikes in her to give Ruin that much control.
Therefore, the Steel Inquisitors (SI), under the control of Ruin, put spikes in Vin's mom to give her hemalurgy.
Did Ruin have that much control over the SI to make them do this? Put spike in a random skaa?
In answer to your questions, which I didn't see last time I posted:
1)Said inconsequential skaa will eventually have a child that has the strongest allomantic ability of anyone born in years, and if above mentioned inconsequential skaa has hemalurgy, Ruin has the perfect tool to be able to control Vin in the future at hand. This does, however, require one of two things. a) Ruin can predict the future (which I doubt) or b) Ruin is able to get information that Vin's mother is sleeping with The High Prelan dude (which he could get from the inquisitors) and just made a lucky guess.
2) Based on above answer, I'd say likely an inquisitor, but it's possible that she got it from some other wacko. I would guess that in order to learn how to create a hemalurgist, you either have to have had it done to you or be able to communicate with Ruin (which tends to entail number 1). However, there could be a "How to make a Steel Inquisitor 101" course book floating around somewhere that we're not aware of.
3) If genetic hemalurgy exists, then I would say yes. I personally believe that genetic hemalurgy does not exist.
4) Yes, I agree that Vin's mother needs to have a spike of some sort somewhere. We don't know enough about her to prove or disprove this, but it's a logical assumption to make.
5) Yes ruin had enough control to make the Steel Inquisitors put a spike in a random skaa. Even before it's freed Ruin has enough control to make marsh fight Sazed, which Marsh wouldn't do without being controlled.
So here's my random question of the day (along with my previous question):
Could the steel inquisitors have given Zane his spike? Why would they do that?
The obvious answer is that they did, but it is theoretically possible that someone else did give it to him. As to why, I would say because they found out he was a mistborn. But then, why haven't they done that with any other noble mistborn?
Thoughts?
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In answer to your questions, which I didn't see last time I posted:
1)Said inconsequential skaa will eventually have a child that has the strongest allomantic ability of anyone born in years, and if above mentioned inconsequential skaa has hemalurgy, Ruin has the perfect tool to be able to control Vin in the future at hand. This does, however, require one of two things. a) Ruin can predict the future (which I doubt) or b) Ruin is able to get information that Vin's mother is sleeping with The High Prelan dude (which he could get from the inquisitors) and just made a lucky guess.
2) Based on above answer, I'd say likely an inquisitor, but it's possible that she got it from some other wacko. I would guess that in order to learn how to create a hemalurgist, you either have to have had it done to you or be able to communicate with Ruin (which tends to entail number 1). However, there could be a "How to make a Steel Inquisitor 101" course book floating around somewhere that we're not aware of.
3) If genetic hemalurgy exists, then I would say yes. I personally believe that genetic hemalurgy does not exist.
4) Yes, I agree that Vin's mother needs to have a spike of some sort somewhere. We don't know enough about her to prove or disprove this, but it's a logical assumption to make.
5) Yes ruin had enough control to make the Steel Inquisitors put a spike in a random skaa. Even before it's freed Ruin has enough control to make marsh fight Sazed, which Marsh wouldn't do without being controlled.
2 to 5 flows logically, but 1 doesn't sit well with me. Im not willing to give Ruin omniscience (other wise he would have killed Rashek the first time so Alendi could have done it 1000 years ago). That leaves a lucky guess that the offspring of the high Prelan will be one of the most powerful mistborn for generations. I don't even think the high prelan was a mistborn or had allomancy, at least I can't remember it in the book. So making a guess seems unlikely to me.
Although, I just thought up of a scenario that might work. I need to state one assupmtion though. Although Ruin could control SI while TLR was alive, I don't think he did, or if he did it was subtle. If TLR had any idea what Ruin could do to his #1 henchmen, I think he would have killed them all. So Ruin had to be careful while TLR was alive.
So here we go. The SI were following the prelan and saw that one of his skaa mistresses had a child. Their purpose was to over throw the obligators so they wanted to keep track of the child. They gave the mom hemalurgy to take control and possibly as a tracking mechanism. At some point they also gave Vin the 15th metal to make her a powerful allomancer. They wanted to make sure she was a mistborn to get the obligators in trouble. Ruin wanted this to happen to make the next hero of ages. Once the mom was under control of Ruin, then she gave Vin hemalurgy. The interesting thing about this setup is that Reen becomes the agent for Preservation to hijack Ruins plan.
So here's my random question of the day (along with my previous question):
Could the steel inquisitors have given Zane his spike? Why would they do that?
The obvious answer is that they did, but it is theoretically possible that someone else did give it to him. As to why, I would say because they found out he was a mistborn. But then, why haven't they done that with any other noble mistborn?
Thoughts?
This is the only thing I could think of. The SI find a mistborn and say, "Hey would you like to be more powerful? We can help but it has a price." If the mistborn says yes, they get a spike. Ruin would approve since it can consolidate its powerbase for the upcoming battle. If Ruin controls all allomancers then it gets hard for Preservation.
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The only question I think I might have a logical answer for is Zane. I don't think the SIs gave Zane his spike, I think his father did it, for more control, and a stronger Mistborn protector. Just my thought there.
As for the other questions, while they fascinate me, I have no idea as to any reason, rhyme, or thoughts on them. Thanks for the interesting reading though. You make the wait a blast. :)
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CopperEye, your scenario makes a lot of sense. I agree that Ruin would have to be careful while the lord ruler was around.
The only question I think I might have a logical answer for is Zane. I don't think the SIs gave Zane his spike, I think his father did it, for more control, and a stronger Mistborn protector. Just my thought there.
That partially makes sense, but also partially not. If this is the case, how does Zane's father know how to create a hemalurgist? How does he know what it does? If he does know, it makes more sense than some random inquisitor, but it doesn't make much sense for Straff to know in the first place.
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I'm beginning to think that Hemalurgy is NOT genetic, and there must be a sacrifice and a piercing that punches through you and then into another Hemalurgist.
I believe that this is wrong. In MB2, the way the book was written made it sound like when Marsh became an Inquisitor they had to sacrifice somebody else (the body that Vin and Kel found). I think that the person on top is a sacrifce for the person on the bottom to become an Inquisitor, or at the least to gain Hemalurgy.
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yeah i dont think the Inquisitors would want to make someone more powerful than they are as a keeper/inquisitor would have many of the same abilities as TLR.
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I think that at this point in the series, creating a Feruchemist/Mistborn/Hemalurgist Inquisitor would be a good goal for the Steel Ministry, as they are all controlled by Ruin and it would just mean another hugely powerful asset to their side of the struggle. (Though I have a different idea on just how they would make said Inquisitor, but that's for the Hemalurgy thread.)
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I'm beginning to think that Hemalurgy is NOT genetic, and there must be a sacrifice and a piercing that punches through you and then into another Hemalurgist.
I believe that this is wrong. In MB2, the way the book was written made it sound like when Marsh became an Inquisitor they had to sacrifice somebody else (the body that Vin and Kel found). I think that the person on top is a sacrifce for the person on the bottom to become an Inquisitor, or at the least to gain Hemalurgy.
But that wouldn't explain how Vin became a Hemalurgist. . . I don't remember the earing going through her sister.
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I believe the books just said Vin's sister was brutally murdered by her mom, but I could be wrong. (And that leaves it open to interpretation on whether or not Vin's sister was stabbed with the earring.)
Another thing here that fits in with my theory of Hemalurgy, is that Vin never remembers Snapping. Perhaps Vin was never a Mistborn herself, (Or maybe a misting,) and her sister was one. Then during the process of sacrificing Vin's sister to give Vin Hemalurgy, she obtained Allomancy as well.
Of course, it could also happen as Kelsier and Vin assume that she just Snapped in one of the many instances of her childhood, and the piercing and blood sacrifice came from Vin's mother. (As the earring used to be worn in her ear, and would pierce it and come into contact with her blood.) This would mean that a Hemalurgic sacrifice would not always have to die, merely be run through with some metal. It also plays off of the whole ear/hearing pulses thing, but that could just be because the earring is in Vin's ear.
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I believe the books just said Vin's sister was brutally murdered by her mom, but I could be wrong. (And that leaves it open to interpretation on whether or not Vin's sister was stabbed with the earring.)
Another thing here that fits in with my theory of Hemalurgy, is that Vin never remembers Snapping. Perhaps Vin was never a Mistborn herself, (Or maybe a misting,) and her sister was one. Then during the process of sacrificing Vin's sister to give Vin Hemalurgy, she obtained Allomancy as well.
Of course, it could also happen as Kelsier and Vin assume that she just Snapped in one of the many instances of her childhood, and the piercing and blood sacrifice came from Vin's mother. (As the earring used to be worn in her ear, and would pierce it and come into contact with her blood.) This would mean that a Hemalurgic sacrifice would not always have to die, merely be run through with some metal. It also plays off of the whole ear/hearing pulses thing, but that could just be because the earring is in Vin's ear.
We've discussed the thought of Hemalurgy giving Allomancy before in the Hemalurgy thread, but the thing being, Brandon said they are independent of each other.
We've also discussed your second point. And we have come to a general consensus that it is because her earing is made of Bronze, not because it went through her ear.
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Read my post on the bottom of page 21 in the Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread. I am well aware of the discussion's about Hemalurgy "giving" Allomancy, and I believe that gaining Allomancy from your sacrifice would just be an added perk if the sacrifice happened to have Allomantic blood which seeped into you.
It's almost like the Lord Ruler burning his Feruchemical attributes through Allomancy. He got his special powers because he Allomantically burned a special source of metal. In this case, Vin obtained the abilities of a Mistborn by Hemalurgically using a special source of blood. By tapping into her sister's Allomantic blood in her body via Hemalurgy, she gains access to the Mistborn abilities. It would explain why Inquisitors can use all the different metals, because they have a wide variety of misting/Mistborn sacrifices to use when impaling themselves for Hemalurgy.
So basically, gaining the Allomantic (or Feruchemical?) abilities through Hemalurgy is just a perk in addition to gaining Hemalurgy, and it depends on who's blood you have flowing through you.
Almost forgot, about the Bronze/ear issue, it's true we came to a general consensus, but that proves very little. It could go both ways, but I have to agree it's probably the bronze doing it. (Though then why would the prologue's bronze spike go through the heart? Maybe all piercings have to go through the heart. Of course that would void the organ/power deal, which I liked a little.)
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This is off topic. We should move this to Hemalurgy, BUT I'm not buying into this idea. I mean, think about, they flat TELL us she has noble blood and that's where she got it from. Kell's theory is most likely correct.
All in all I think it is very plausible that Vin's mom had attained Hemalurgy at one point or another.
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Then we shall continue this in the Comprehensive Hemalurgy thread. (Though I'm willing to admit Vin probably got her Mistborn abilities through the normal method, there's more to this theory than that.)
As for Vin's mom being a Hemalurgist, I agree it's quite possible, but it makes me ask the question of just who can make a Hemalurgist. Has it been confirmed that the one preforming the process of sacrificing has to be a Hemalurgist? If so, how were the first Hemalurgists made? I find it more plausible that anyone could do it, with the right know-how and tools. (Though it does seem kind of odd that a non-Hemalurgist could make a Hemalurgist through Hemalurgy, but that could be explained in the same way that a non-Allomancer could become an Allomancer through Allomantically burning the metal Elend ate. However they explain that.)
Of course, Vin's mom having Hemalurgy would explain the voices in her head, so it's probably true.
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And as the survivor said, "There's always another secret."
xP
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(Though then why would the prologue's bronze spike go through the heart? Maybe all piercings have to go through the heart. Of course that would void the organ/power deal, which I liked a little.)
This is what I was initially getting at when I made my comments. The piercings all have to go through the heart, though the other works as well.
Side note, the prologue spike is brass, not bronze. That would explain it.
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Vin's mom was an inquisitor totally controlled by Ruin.
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Vin's mom was an inquisitor totally controlled by Ruin.
I think you mean Hemalurgist. ;)
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Nope. Steel Inquisitor full on ;D she had to go crazy, and what better way than being run through by 11 spikes and having ruin's voice going full blast in her head!?
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Nope. Steel Inquisitor full on ;D she had to go crazy, and what better way than being run through by 11 spikes and having ruin's voice going full blast in her head!?
o.O
Uhm. You do that then.
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Now to be serious she had to be at least a hemalurgist, wasn't she saying something about Vin being a princess or queen when Reen saved her?
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If I recall it was something along those lines yes.
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Don't know where i was going with that... haha
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Could tie in to the noble blood deal with Allomancy. Her mom might have known that she would be special if she had both Hemalurgy and Allomancy to work off of.
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Doesn't Vin state that her mom was a ska? He father was the one that provided the noble blood.
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What is the difference between Skaa and noblemen? I mean, besides class....think about it....
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Noblemen helped TLR at the Well the first time around, we think he gave them the mistborn metal as a reward so they have the ability to have mistborn and mistings for children, skaa do not.
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Yeah no skaa has ever been known to give birth to an Allomancer without noble blood.
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My point is....are the Skaa that different from noblemen? Genetically. That has never been clarified to my satisfaction, and a disturbing number of Skaa masquerade as nobles....do they not?
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Doesn't Vin state that her mom was a ska? He father was the one that provided the noble blood.
Yes, but if her mom knew Vin had noble blood, (I would hope she did,) then she would know that there was a good chance Vin would have Allomancy. By preforming the ritual to grant Vin Hemalurgy as well, she was ensuring her daughter would be quite powerful in her own right. She was rambling on about her being a princess because to her that meant she would have the powers of Allomancy.
And as for the others, I think the only genetic difference between noblemen and skaa is the genetic trait of Allomancy. When the Lord Ruler took power, he gave his closest supporters the metal that creates Mistborn, imbedding within them the genetic trait to pass down Allomancy. They are genetically different, but only by a very little amount. (Otherwise, there would be no way for noblemen and skaa to interbreed, which obviously happens.)
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i think there is no physical difference and the only genetic difference is that they cannot use Allomancy.
This brings up the question of where Feruchemy came from. Why can only Terrismen use it?
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The allomancy is the only difference. Well the wealth and that is one too, but genetically that is the only difference we've seen.
I'm still skeptic about her mom knowing what she was doing. The books make it sound as if she were just crazy, that's all.
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That's something from another Age... hahahaha. We really don't know a whole lot about Feruchemy other than how it's used. Some of us think that Inquisitors are embedded with some feruchemical traits, but we have never seen it in any other person than a Terrisman
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I like the idea of Vin's mom having known that the Hemalurgy would help her out. I mean, she did potentially have the information, having slept with an Obligator.
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Do obligators know how it works?
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Do obligators know how it works?
We could assume that there were theories. I mean, there are ALWAYS rumors about things you don't fully understand, especially when you are so close the the thing causing the stigma.
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I would assume that they knew at least something.
Also, this topic started yesterday, I believe, and we're already to four pages. That just might be a record for us. Go team!
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I think there was something posted earlier that was like. . . opposite of this, but I suddenly thought this.
What if the Obligators were using Vin's mother, and other Skaa, in an attempt to overthrow the Inquisitors and TLR?
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Then they'd get face pwnt by the Inquisitors
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Then they'd get face pwnt by the Inquisitors
That doesn't mean they weren't trying.
A little bit of support:
The Obligators were scholars - They would have been able to be in contact with TLR and been able to figure a lot of things out. Therefore they MIGHT have understood how to fuse Hemalurgy and Allomancy.
We know that not only that one Obligator was sleeping with Skaa.
We also know that the Obligators hate SIs.
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Then they'd get face pwnt by the Inquisitors
That doesn't mean they weren't trying.
A little bit of support:
The Obligators were scholars - They would have been able to be in contact with TLR and been able to figure a lot of things out. Therefore they MIGHT have understood how to fuse Hemalurgy and Allomancy.
We know that not only that one Obligator was sleeping with Skaa.
We also know that the Obligators hate SIs.
Wouldn't they have told Elend/anyone about that then? If they hate the SI's then wouldn't they want to bring about their downfall?
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Then they'd get face pwnt by the Inquisitors
That doesn't mean they weren't trying.
A little bit of support:
The Obligators were scholars - They would have been able to be in contact with TLR and been able to figure a lot of things out. Therefore they MIGHT have understood how to fuse Hemalurgy and Allomancy.
We know that not only that one Obligator was sleeping with Skaa.
We also know that the Obligators hate SIs.
Wouldn't they have told Elend/anyone about that then? If they hate the SI's then wouldn't they want to bring about their downfall?
I don't know if you remember, but before the collapse. . . . EVERYONE hated all of the people in the Steel Ministry, even the Steel Inquisotors. . . No they wouldn't have told anyone. After the collapse they MAY have said something, but it's very unlikely. People like to keep secrets.
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And there is always another secret, neh?
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And there is always another secret, neh?
lol thats what i was just thinking
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Sorry, I'm back tracking a bit
Now to be serious she had to be at least a hemalurgist, wasn't she saying something about Vin being a princess or queen when Reen saved her?
Perhaps Vin's mother knew the prophecy, and is saying that her daughter is the hero of ages, or maybe it;s Ruin speaking through her.
Or perhaps it's Ruin or Preservation showing her the future, Vin did after all, end up being a Queen, now she's an empress. So many of us focus on the skaa, or mistborn side, but Vin's a Queen too, now that's she's married Elend. Her mother's predictions came true
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That's a really interesting point. So you're saying that her mother knew her future through Ruin? The only problem with that is that ruin would see her working against it (ruin), and would arrange for her to be killed as soon as it was freed, which apparently hasn't happened.
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Unless it was Preservation influencing Vin's mother.
I don't know how that works with the earring thing though, but it's definately something to think about. Either Ruin and PReservation can see the future, which I think is unlikely, how could they be beat? or the can cause people to have visions of the future
I wonder what else Vin's mother "babbled" about.
Perhaps, Vin's mother was able to use Atium, enhance by Hemalurgy, to se very far into the future? But she wasn;t msitborn so that doesn't work. I don' think it's a coincidence though that there are metals that let someone see the past and the future, and Vin;s mother is babbling things that actually happen later one.
It could be she was just proclaiming Vin the hero of ages because Ruin told her to: Terris philosphers claim Alendi is hero by giving him piercings, Vin's mom proclaims her a Queen, and gives her a piercing.
It was Vin's mother's own earring though, so what's the significance of that, since she is a hemalurgist it was probably already used, and maybe the baby sister was only used to transfer it's power.
Or maybe the earring has been passed through Generation, and it is the cage that holds Preservaiton :)
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That's a really interesting point. So you're saying that her mother knew her future through Ruin? The only problem with that is that ruin would see her working against it (ruin), and would arrange for her to be killed as soon as it was freed, which apparently hasn't happened.
We keep acting as if Ruin was omnipotent! There's all kinds of evidence that Ruin can only do so much. Just getting free was apparently a huge amount of work for it. It may have prepared for after getting free, but there's no guarantee that it would succeed at whatever it planned, let along succeed in an attempted assassination.
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Right, Ruin isn't omnipotent, or even totally omnicient, he can't see what people think, but is nearly so (as it says on the book description.
And besides, even if Ruin could off Vin with a thought (I don;t believe he can, at least not yet, he's still looking for something remember, and once he finds it methinks Vin won't matter much then anyway, Perphaps he has future plans for Vin.
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What if Vin's mom was terris? Not at all likely, I know, but are the Terris physically different from Skaa, or Nobility? The only thing I can think of is the earrings... yeah, crazy thought. But if Vin did have some Terris blood in her ancestry, that would be a reason she was abnormally powerful. That she could be using feruchemy instinctively a little bit at a time, and wouldn't even know she was doing it, because no one teaches her.
There's a crazy theory.
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Right, Ruin isn't omnipotent, or even totally omnicient, he can't see what people think, but is nearly so (as it says on the book description.
And besides, even if Ruin could off Vin with a thought (I don;t believe he can, at least not yet, he's still looking for something remember, and once he finds it methinks Vin won't matter much then anyway, Perphaps he has future plans for Vin.
The difficulty with this is that we don't know what Ruin can do now that it is free.
While it was trapped in the well, it was obviously constrained, and we get some feel for just how constrained by looking both at what it did and didn't do. It couldn't alter Kwaan's mind or metal slab, for instance. But it could control the Steel Inquisitors to some extent, which probably explains why they were so bloodthirsty even before TLR was killed.
We get from the MB3 prologue that something is still holding it back (Preservation or some of Preservation's power is an obvious candidate), so even free it's not omnipotent. Unfortunately, barring the book itself we have no way of gauging just what it can do now. It seems likely that it cannot read minds because it used the steel inquisitors to torture the Terrismen, but that may just as well be due to Preservation's general protection.
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What if Vin's mom was terris? Not at all likely, I know, but are the Terris physically different from Skaa, or Nobility? The only thing I can think of is the earrings... yeah, crazy thought. But if Vin did have some Terris blood in her ancestry, that would be a reason she was abnormally powerful. That she could be using feruchemy instinctively a little bit at a time, and wouldn't even know she was doing it, because no one teaches her.
There's a crazy theory.
If I remember correctly, in MB1 she tried to burn Feruchemical metals to see if she could see the stuff stored inside. That didn't work. BUT she could feel something in it, a shadow of the power that was hidden. . . . . I think that this is a possibility.
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Which would make her have all three powers, though untrained in two of them.
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What if Vin's mom was terris? Not at all likely, I know, but are the Terris physically different from Skaa, or Nobility?
That occurred to me too, and I think it is a possibility. However, it seems to me that skaa are generally shorter than nobility, who are generally shorter than Terris people. (I know that part of Sazed's height comes from being a eunuch, but Tindwyl and other Terrismen are tall too, aren't they?) Vin is a very short person. We know her father was a very high-ranking obligator (noble), so it seems to me that if her mother were Terris, Vin would more likely be tall. Of course, a lot of this is conjecture; there could be short-to-medium Terris people and short-to-medium nobles, and even two tall people can sometimes have a short child. However, to me the little evidence we have indicates that Vin's mom is probably just regular skaa.
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I agree, I don;t think Vin has any Terris blood in her, and if she does, it's trace treace trace amounts, and there's no feruchemy involved, maybe she had one ancestor 2000 years ago, but ya, that's the most likely thing. I'm pretty sure Vin's powerful enought withough Feruchemy, and having feruchemy wouldn't explain her power with brass or zinc, which is very good at, or her extremely powerful pushes and pulls (Kelsier says she's too powerful for her wieght and experience, true she's not as good as Zane or Kell yet...). Her power with Bronze is explained, sort of ( the earring and her hemalurgy), but what of her skills with the other metals. Where does she get her power from? I think it's moe than just breeding, there's something we're missing about Vin!
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That perhaps she's more connected to Preservation than we know?
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I agree, I don;t think Vin has any Terris blood in her, and if she does, it's trace treace trace amounts, and there's no feruchemy involved, maybe she had one ancestor 2000 years ago, but ya, that's the most likely thing. I'm pretty sure Vin's powerful enought withough Feruchemy, and having feruchemy wouldn't explain her power with brass or zinc, which is very good at, or her extremely powerful pushes and pulls (Kelsier says she's too powerful for her wieght and experience, true she's not as good as Zane or Kell yet...). Her power with Bronze is explained, sort of ( the earring and her hemalurgy), but what of her skills with the other metals. Where does she get her power from? I think it's moe than just breeding, there's something we're missing about Vin!
Look at the theory that was just recently put up on the Ruin/Preservation thread. . . . that one is REALLY good.
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Which one, the one that Vin has preservation inside of her? Cuz... I wrote that one. Or the other one, which also says Vin has PReservation inside of her?
The both say the same thing I guess, and I think this is why her allomancy is so strong obviously, but I still have my doubts as well, is there anything else that could possibly explain it?
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Which one, the one that Vin has preservation inside of her? Cuz... I wrote that one. Or the other one, which also says Vin has PReservation inside of her?
The both say the same thing I guess, and I think this is why her allomancy is so strong obviously, but I still have my doubts as well, is there anything else that could possibly explain it?
The one that incorporated the old book that Brandon wrote before, but used in this one.
I think that that one has the most credence, expedcially considering in the annotations of MB1 Brandon says he used a lot of ideas from that book.
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Yes, I liked that theory as well!
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yes, yes, book three will come down to a showdown between Vin, the avatar of Preservation, versus the avatar of Ruin!! Would be kinda cool....
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WTF is expedcially? OMG! I must have been TIRED when I typed that. haha.
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Maybe not a showdown of the avatars, I think Vin needs to be killed for PReservation to be released, and Elend or Sazed is going to do it! How horrible!
At the same time, I really don't want Vin or Elend to die, it would be too tragic. On the otherhand could you picture Vin growing old, having kids, being a mother? I sure can't!
Just thought of something else:
You know how we were wondering if Vin's mother could see the future, well listen to this:
Quote from the Logbook
35- I know what will happen if I make the wrong choice. I must be strong; I must not take the power for myself.
For I have seen what will happen if I do.
Alendi had those piercings of the hero as well, and he says he's seen a possible future for himself. Sounds a lot like atium doesn't it: Possible futures, only there was no allomancy back then, perhaps hemalurgy offers another kind of future seeing. Maybe this is the "future of the entire world," he holds ON his arms. Perhaps he has, I don't know.. tatoos or something which show the future, maybe there's more of a purpose to the ministry tatoos than we originally thought?
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I think, though, that the story could end before that. I would be fine with most everyone alive at the end, and with the knowledge that these people are going to get to grow old and live the rest of their lives relatively peacefully and happily. I don't know if we'll get to see that here, but we could. Nobody that's alive now has to die, except perhaps Marsh. Everyone else could survive to the end without a problem (assuming no one has to die to release Preservation or destroy Ruin or whatever).
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Sorry, I think I modified my precious post, while you were replying
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I think that is an interesting idea... Though he could have seen what could happen on a smaller scale, like in one city or something... But that brings up a point.
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I'm reading the steel plates now, the part where Kwaan is listing the signs that applied to Alendi, and look what I found:
Quote from the Steel Plates
29 There were other proofs to connect Alendi to the Hero of Ages. Smaller things, things that only one trained in the lore of the Anticipation would have noticed. THE BIRTHMARK ON HIS ARM. The way his hair turned gray when he was barely twenty and five years of age. The way he spoke, the way he treated people, the way he ruled. He simply seemed to fit.
I added the emphasis of course. And if you look at the bit of logbook before the prologue of MB1, the one that has the secret of the overarching mystery in the series, according to brandon, Alendi says he carries the future of the world ON HIS ARM, or something like that, coincidence, I think not!
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He has a big birthmark that looks like Chuck Norris... HAHAHAHA
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WTF is expedcially? OMG! I must have been TIRED when I typed that. haha.
Don't worry, you're not even close to the worst speller/proofreader on these boards. [cough] Comatose [/cough] :-)
I'm reading the steel plates now, the part where Kwaan is listing the signs that applied to Alendi, and look what I found:
Quote from the Steel Plates
29 There were other proofs to connect Alendi to the Hero of Ages. Smaller things, things that only one trained in the lore of the Anticipation would have noticed. THE BIRTHMARK ON HIS ARM. The way his hair turned gray when he was barely twenty and five years of age. The way he spoke, the way he treated people, the way he ruled. He simply seemed to fit.
I added the emphasis of course. And if you look at the bit of logbook before the prologue of MB1, the one that has the secret of the overarching mystery in the series, according to brandon, Alendi says he carries the future of the world ON HIS ARM, or something like that, coincidence, I think not!
Interesting, I never noticed that before. I think you're absolutely right, the birthmark is what is important about that epigraph. What it means exactly is not so certain. And do any of the present-day characters have birthmarks that we know of? I can't think of any, but if there were, that would be a huge clue.
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Yeah, I don't remember any of the characters having birthmarks... I don't think I was ever looking for it.
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Quote from SarahG
Don't worry, you're not even close to the worst speller/proofreader on these boards. [cough] Comatose [/cough] :-)
Yes, I'm aware of my condition SarahG, and I humbly apologize. I'll try harder in the future, that is until I get lazy, excited, or any number of other emotions that will lead to sloppiness and thus those dreaded typos ;D.
Perhaps Ruin (or Preservation) could shape the mark, as he does writing in texts, to show the future, but that would imply Ruin seeing the future, which I don't think he can. What is the significance of the mark? And is it why Alendi holds the future of the world ON his arms?
This is confusing, but I think the epigraphs are by far the most valuable source of clues we have, way to go Vintage and Andrew, great job!
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Quote from SarahG
Don't worry, you're not even close to the worst speller/proofreader on these boards. [cough] Comatose [/cough] :-)
Perhaps Ruin (or Preservation) could shape the mark, as he does writing in texts, to show the future, but that would imply Ruin seeing the future, which I don't think he can. What is the significance of the mark? And is it why Alendi holds the future of the world ON his arms?
Because of the way it is phrased, I don't think that particular logbook reference refers to a birthmark...unless he has two birthmarks, both identical, both on his arms.
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Yes, I'm aware of my condition SarahG, and I humbly apologize. I'll try harder in the future, that is until I get lazy, excited, or any number of other emotions that will lead to sloppiness and thus those dreaded typos ;D.
Humble apology accepted; you are hereby forgiven. :-) I also commend you on being careful to avoid errors in your apology post. (Otherwise I might doubt the sincerity of your remorse.)
And now, having set myself up as resident grammar Nazi, I guess I need to be all the more careful myself. :-\
Because of the way it is phrased, I don't think that particular logbook reference refers to a birthmark...unless he has two birthmarks, both identical, both on his arms.
You're right, I hadn't thought about the plural. That does make the birthmark theory far less plausible.
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And then I move over to the hemalurgy thread, and use 'teh' instead of 'the,' and many others I'm sure. When I get excited about something (Anything Mistborn), everything else just becomes unimportant, to me at least. I apologize if my future transgressions offend anyone ;D.
Yes, I had thought about that, and you are right, one is plural, the other is not. I realize it's not perfect, but it just seems like too much to be purely coincidence. We're here trying to figure out what "on his arms," could mean, and then it turns out he has a birthmark "on his arm." I dunno, maybe there's something else on the other arm that we are missing?
Shall we continue this as well in the Vin as the HOA thread, since it has to do with the hero of ages as well?